The country code is 3 digits and the phone itself is 9 digits
#career-chat
fickle hatch
lilac walrus
I encountered that exact problem with a Czech phone number just last week
vast jewel
Try a zero first?
vast jewel
Can you do +420 0XXXX XXXXX?
neat jackal
Or a (0)6 for mobile phone numbers?
I know my number is either +31 6 XXX XX XXX or 06 XXX XX XXX depending on whether it's an international call or not
31 6 or 06 would be a 1 digit difference
lilac walrus
that's not how Czech phone numbers work
they have 9 digits, always
and the country code is +420
Czech numbers do not start with a zero
vast jewel
Right, I thought we were just trying to bypass a phone number validated form field.
lilac walrus
I mean if you only want to fill the form in you can put any old rubbish in there but if you need to supply a valid phone number it's really irritating
fickle hatch
Zero is invalid in this case
In some countries leading zeroes are ignored, but not here to my knowledge
iron kindle
"+" can be substituted with "00"
Like in Norway it's +47, but 0047 also works
So you can get that extra digit
flat gazelle
Not necessarily. The + is the out from country code which in Scandinavia is 00. In other countries it might differ.
So the + depends on where the caller is
iron kindle
Aha. Didn't know that factoid. Nice
brisk anchor
So calling from canada to norway could be something else then 00?
The more you know 👍
spice dagger
remote saffron
Some career can depend on this knowledge 😂
patent mountain
Yeah so glad i came across this career advice
Now i can setup my dial up modem to be international
fickle hatch
@patent mountain do you know the difference between pulse dial and tone dial
If you do not, you are not ready for an international dial-up modem just yet
patent mountain
@fickle hatch yeah i was like 4 or 5 when they went out of service lol but i did spin that shit around as a kid...
My career advice to others is to go back in time to when they invented the snes and play all those games and then come back with game ideas
steel creek
if they do that, they would be ruined realizing all their ideas have already been done better than they could have executed. 😄
remote saffron
if I would start to time travel I would probably either try to publish a game between 2008 and 2013 or simply win the lottery a few times
harsh brook
its not like game development got harder, in many ways its easier now then ever, its just that expectations rose alongside the ease to produce
I mean roller coaster tycoon was written entirely in assembly like I can't even....
remote saffron
I am aware of that fact
but as an engineer I would have a better chance where there is much more technical challenge in making a video game, which also stops the flood of games we have now
at least that's how I think, might be wrong tho
harsh brook
I mean it depends where you want to be, if you mean gameplay programming I can see your point of view, but then you would also want to consider the less flashy jobs like maintaining servers or creating rendering frameworks both of which have greatly expanded in both complexity and job numbers
remote saffron
probably I would just try to make some 2D games using libs like SDL
remote saffron
we already had those for a long time back then
harsh brook
Fair point
fickle hatch
I wrote a game in full assembly before
It's not much different to writing it in C, but it certainly only fits for some things and not others
mighty ocean
I'm hoping to release a game with both PC and Atari 2600 versions whenever the new Atari VCS console launches. The ASM for the 6502 isn't too bad but the Atari 2600 has some very interesting hardware "features"
fickle hatch
Heh. Someone in a different chat was working on a promotional stunt for their game, you could play their game on SNES
By having a raspberry pi doing the computations and an extra layer feeding the video data to SNES
So there isn't any actual game on the SNES, it's just doing a bizzareish pass-through of sorts
fading yoke
I just learned that Alexander's new job is Professor at the University of Barcelona. God, that sounds like such a great job and I'm 100^100 times envious.
fickle hatch
@fading yoke I dunno if being a professor is such a great job, though it certainly is a job that works great for some people
kindred mason
There are two sides to that coin
From what I heard most of the time, that's where people who can't hack it in the game industry go, because that's the only place that will take them
But, there are people who are really just good at education and that's their calling.
honest cipher
problem with games education is that you very quickly get out of time
so your game knowledge is valid to teach for a few years
then you get outdated
fickle hatch
It's kinda easy to tell with professors on who became one because they are good and who became one because they couldn't do anything else
kindred mason
Well, I know at my school, yes, there's only so much time you can have with your students per week
honest cipher
thats why CS and gaming courses tend to be kind of terrible-ish
kindred mason
But, at the same time... the level of education you get from school vs home-brew
It's way different
Quality-wise
(for the most part)
I'm not sure I can endorse either way, but seeing how I've done both (education and home-brew), they each have their pros/cons
Regardless, I agree @fickle hatch to a certain degree. Sometimes it's hard to tell though. Some professors are sneaky like that
Also, our industry is so small
Especially at that level
You may hear whispers, here and there. But you won't see anything staring right out at you.
@honest cipher I don't agree with "out-dated-ness"
I feel like, if you're worth any salt, you'll keep up with the industry
And adjust your curriculum accordingly
I mean, that's what my school did anyway with Substance
Before that it was all about Photoshop
There are other examples as well. Code-wise, they failed hard though 😉
fickle hatch
@kindred mason yeah, it was kinda easier for me, I did engineering classes and it was easy to tell who wasn't a good professor and who was. The good professors always focused on substance, while the bad ones would focus on form
kindred mason
But, I can't blame them too much...being an Art School afterall
fickle hatch
With gamedev it's probably harder because you can't just look outside the window (onto the real world physics) and realize that professor is saying total bullshit
honest cipher
ther are tons of knowledge you cant learn ouside working in AAA
fickle hatch
And later on when you get to advanced engineering, you already have experience to tell them apart
honest cipher
try to learn engine development
you cant
the only way to learn engine dev is to work in an AAA engine as an engine dev
kindred mason
Ehhh
honest cipher
the most you can do is some toy engines or tinkering
fickle hatch
Writing your own game engines was a huge thing in 2000's
honest cipher
not AAA level tech
honest cipher
i was talking with a guy who will join PUBG, who worked at AAA square enix engines
the stuff he was working on was nowhere to be found on the internet
kindred mason
We would write engine that would work for the games we would develop for
We aren't trying to build some AAA engine at Indie level
honest cipher
bleeding edge stuff that is not out there
kindred mason
You are now +1ing for no reason lol
honest cipher
sure, but im talking about "how are you going to learnAAA level engine dev"
like, to become a engine dev
fickle hatch
@honest cipher the "not found anywhere on the internet" is totally normal and happens all the time IMO
kindred mason
If you have ANY game engine tech experience... and you go to AAA, I'm sure some/most of the skills you learned would translate
fickle hatch
You won't find anything about our physics simulation stuff on the internet
kindred mason
"many years behind" ?
You know UE4 is like "many years behind" right?
So how's that translate?
honest cipher
UE4 is a "generic" engine
fickle hatch
Maybe you can find my old masters/bachelors thesis that describes asynchronous simulation approaches we use, but that's not actually useful, there are many more papers on asynchronous simulation which are more substantial
honest cipher
so not the same as the level of tech in a focused AAA engine
kindred mason
Eh, what's all this having to justify your answers now 😭
Your OG argument was about engine tech and if you can learn it outside of AAA
fickle hatch
The value in our simulation is that we already wrote the code and it works, it's design and such. Those things aren't online, nobody who works on similar projects ever put their code online either
kindred mason
And the answer is a definite "YES"
fickle hatch
And yet we're ahead of our competitors in the tech level
kindred mason
Yeah, but @fickle hatch , being devil's advocate here... how "old" is your tech now?
Like, had you started today, what would change?
There's always new things coming out
fickle hatch
If I started today from scratch, it would take me 3+ years to get to the point where we are right now
kindred mason
Aye
fickle hatch
The point is, you can do advanced things without actually being in the AAA process (for example)
kindred mason
Of course
fickle hatch
You just have to solve appropriate tasks - I think that is enough to be on the right path
I think the real challenge lies in finding the tasks that need to be solved
fading yoke
Where can I learn more about the process of fundraising? FWIW I've already seen the "20 things I hate about your pitch" GDC video.
shadow kelp
it's totally possible to learn AAA engine development on your own. All 'AAA' really means is that developers get to spend lots of time honing optimising very small focused bit of tech. There's nothing fundamentally different. Just pick a single engine feature and go to town on it. Rinse. Repeat.
flat gazelle
Hard to keep up with what takes an army of coders to do, on your own. It takes time and then we are back at the outdated scenario.
dense needle
AAA means A lot of Money, A lot of Time, A lot of Stupidity.
I updated it for 2018.
plucky hatch
I agree with the last one
dense needle
(:
plucky hatch
XD
shadow kelp
@flat gazelle you don't need to keep up with an army of coders
if what you want to do is teach yourself skills that'll enable you to get work in AAA, you can absolutely do it on your own.
flat gazelle
But, that's not what was being discussed 0 o it was about teachers keeping their curriculum up to date
shadow kelp
up to date is meaningless
what is up to date?
you use the right tool for the job
doesn't matter how old it is
flat gazelle
Alright
shadow kelp
You don't need to chase the latest tech, you just need to be able to adapt and solve problems. A good teacher will encourage that, and it doesn't matter if they're using old tech to do it
dense needle
Indie devs, smaller studios have been doing amazing work. If you are starting out, I recommend your first job should be there. Just make sure they have shipped at least one product on the market prior. To almost guarantee you get a pay check for your hard work.
shadow kelp
I just hired a kid onto a AAA project. He just had a couple of bombed indie unity games on his CV, and his C++ was a little ropey, but he communicated well, responded well to the grilling we gave him on the coding test, showed he knew how to solve problems even if his specific tech knowledge was limited.
thorny grail
Hey guys, I want to have a career as an environment artist but I am from India and here we don't have any studio that makes AAA games. We do have game studios here but they mainly focus on Mobile games. When i check job criteria on artstation (posted by different companies) i see they mention experience in at least 1 AAA game even for junior artists. As a 3d lover i want to create stuffs that look as good as AAA quality game and want to work in game industry. So, is it possible to jump into any game studio without working on any AAA quality game? If i work hard and make good portfolio, will anyone hire me? I am still a student and i need to choose the path wisely because here the gaming industry scenario is really different.
shadow kelp
working on a AAA game is not a requirement for junior level positions. That's just bad recruiters being...bad.
thorny grail
I was thinking the same, if everyone wants experience in AAA games how will a newcomer start
steel creek
The only real honest difference between AAA and something not AAA is simply the budget
shadow kelp
for art in AAA it's a bit tricky, because usually studios are looking for a particular style. If you know which studio you want to go for, make sure your portfolio has examples front and centre that would suit their games
steel creek
I guess there is some of that but that has not been my experience
Studios looking to hire look to hire people that are just competent first
If you can follow instructions
If your self-motivated
If you don't need to be constantly tasked
thorny grail
still these things can be learnt by practice and hardwork my only concern is experience currently.
steel creek
When it comes down to art style what I have seen in The Hires I have either done or been a part of is that the person coming in is competent to just take that instruction and run with it given they have talent which should show through in their portfolio
Continuing to practice on your craft this is all you really can do and all you really should do if that is your focus area of work
thorny grail
you mean the ability to take the challenge of creating a new style of artwork
that is what recruiters look for
steel creek
Correct along with understanding and reapplying it
Definitely not looking for people to just be able to clone or copy work
shadow kelp
well yeah, if you are applying to a particular studio, you are going to get along a lot better if you can bang out some work that suits their style.
good practice working to a spec like that too
steel creek
One of the real problems is much like art itself the hiring process is very subjective in a lot of ways
thorny grail
guess i need to compensate my lack of experience with my portfolio because here i will be working on mobile games only
steel creek
There is nothing wrong with working on mobile games
thorny grail
art is always subjective haha
steel creek
Mobile games is a bigger part of the industry than AAA FYI
thorny grail
yes of course this is the reason why the companies in my country root for mobile games i guess
good for business
shadow kelp
especially for art...for programming only having mobile exp is tough if you're trying to get work in console/PC...but art is art, whatever the platform
but for code and art...if you ain't got experience, get working on that portfolio 😃
thorny grail
thanks, this really inspired me... i can totally focus on my art now
elder mist
Got a refund request from a customer. For a Job I made in September (got payment on October). How you guys handle those situations?
west sonnet
Don’t offer refunds once payment and asset is delivered. Ideally, the client viewed the work as it developed. If they’re trying to get money back after the fact, it’s usually to cheat you.
kindred mason
@elder mist Yeah, if you delivered the goods, and they accepted it.
No refund.
Now, if they "accepted the goods", but told you right then, they it sucked
And wasn't what they asked for
That's different
But, having paid you, then you are in the clear, because there's an understanding that a fair and just transaction was made.
ashen lynx
Refund request under work for hire contract? That is something new.
west sonnet
It isn’t unfortunately
kindred mason
Just depends on when payment was made.
And reason for refund.
So spills the beans
So I can fairly judge 😉
ashen lynx
Well, you know, if it is your return client and you actually value it to some degree, could consider it.
kindred mason
Yeah, we're missing out on some info here
ashen lynx
If it was your real screw-up and you do care about your rep, might also consider it.
But otherwise..
kindred mason
I've done a refund, I think only once. On upwork, after two weeks work (they kept the stuff IIRC), because he was an idiot and didn't know wtf he was doing
elder mist
@kindred mason PPal. First version of the assets were provided on 1st September. Paid on 23 Oct. Refund request yesterday.
kindred mason
Paypal?
What reason was the refund?
I mean, so far seems like a fair and just transaction here. You delivered goods, got paid.
west sonnet
They’re trying to get a refund on a milestone of a complete asset? -_-
elder mist
@kindred mason "Not as described"
kindred mason
But, it's odd that a refund request was made 1.5 months later
Well, there's something missing here
west sonnet
Yeah no, it’s a swindle
kindred mason
What happened between getting paid 23 Oct and yesterday?
Did you deliver anything?
You said, "first version of goods"
elder mist
@kindred mason yep, i've made Maya rigged chars, and imported them in ue4 (all of mentioned was delivered)
kindred mason
So, how was the contract worded?
You got paid in the middle?
You made a few things... got paid... made some more things.... then refund request
That's what I am getting from this so far
So, you didn't actually deliver all goods 100% until recently
elder mist
@kindred mason nope. i was making additional stuff for them as well, like modular meshes (to be used with different clothing)
kindred mason
Basically, if you don't want to go into more details. It's fine. But here's the skinny of it.
IMHO, the customer's always right mentality sucks, but there's a good reason for it. It's worked out for a lot of us throughout our contracts.
So, I'm confused then.
Were you contracted for a specific thing(s), or a monthly on-hands, do whatever thing?
ashen lynx
You know, it is common practice that some details surface even after delivery, but if a client is reputable, you will always get a message inquiring for changes/amendments/ fix-ups to be made. Refund request in the context is just an attempt to keep both money and assets.
kindred mason
The refund case I did two summers ago, over $3k, I refunded because...it just wasn't worth it
elder mist
@kindred mason wow...
kindred mason
yeah, but that was my fault, because I knew he was new
west sonnet
@kindred mason idiot client or miscommunication of the contract?
kindred mason
But still trusted that the guy would at least listen to my advice
Yeah, idiot client
his first game. He wanted to do a MOBA
west sonnet
Those are the bloody worst
kindred mason
I told him everything we needed to do, but he wasn't listening
He wanted to do production his own way and not listen to the guy that's been in the business a lot longer than a few months 😉
No research, no pre-production planning, etc
Just pure work in engine
It was a disaster
This was a MOBA
west sonnet
Meh, wouldn’t of refunded that was his fault
kindred mason
He didn't understand we needed dedicated servers (and why), and the costs, etc
honest cipher
i think i know that guy
kindred mason
LOL
honest cipher
was the MOBA MMO guy?
elder mist
@kindred mason hmm...my client somehow similar....he dropped already finished chars and requested new ones (i should know then)
honest cipher
couple weeks ago
honest cipher
he was on GDL discord like a week ago
kindred mason
Oh, he may be on there then
honest cipher
i told him 100% that he had 0 chance whatsoever
kindred mason
I would steer away from him
elder mist
Oh, he may be on there then lurking in the shadows of discord
kindred mason
Maybe he's learned a bit more though
Regardless, you'll get clients like that from time to time
ashen lynx
It is good, when you can spot problematic clients before you sign the contract, but sadly it is not always the case.
kindred mason
Recently, there was some guy that wanted to do some naughty game, can't even remember the genre. But again, needed a lot of upfront costs, etc... But only had $600 to pay me
Only had a budget (from credit cards) of like $2k/month
So when they max out, no budget
He was actually a bit more prepared though. Had a really nice GDD
west sonnet
@elder mist rule of thumb; have the client examine the finish product (provide video or such but never give the raw asset), if the like it they must pay for it, your obligation is over save for minor fix up.
kindred mason
@elder mist Oh, there are a lot of potential employers that just lurk on here... you should have seen the offers from random people as soon as I announced my leaving Contagion VR
Interesting fact. Be you, and there are people out that actually don't mind 😉
@honest cipher if you can find me his post on GDL, hit me up
I'm curious
west sonnet
Established studios?
kindred mason
Aye
west sonnet
Nice!
kindred mason
We have III/AA/AAA on here
@elder mist So getting back to your problem though. Cause I derailed it hard.
Were you being paid per item produced, or on a monthly basis?
Like, I'm still confused on that part
elder mist
@kindred mason per item
@kindred mason i havent been even paid for the recent updates
kindred mason
Is this someone you would want to work for again?
elder mist
@kindred mason probably not, yet i liked to work with some people on his team
kindred mason
Are they able to review your work ?
(like is there anywhere you advertise and they could fuck you with shit reviews cause they fail at life?)
elder mist
probably not as well, at least it was well made (i still think so)
kindred mason
If you refunded them all their money (so clean slate), would you be able to maintain your living for the month?
elder mist
sure
west sonnet
Did the contract detail refund conditions?
kindred mason
I say, maybe, just suck it up as a lessons-learned moment
If it's not really that much of a bother to you
(financially)
elder mist
@west sonnet nope
kindred mason
But yeah, you can just follow the contract word for word
If you delivered the goods, and you got paid for it
elder mist
@kindred mason ok, probably will be a lesson for me
kindred mason
It's your money
I typically choose the path of least resistance, I'm a sucker
But I know my rights in USA
And how to read contracts
And can send contracts to my lawyer
ashen lynx
@elder mist Just keep in mind, that an occurrence like this is most likely pointing to a deeper problem and you might want steer away from this employer, for it will not make further cooperation better.
west sonnet
Even so, I’m against refund in your case. They paid for the deliverable and got the asset. The fact you’re getting refund requests MONTHS after delivery is a red flag.
ashen lynx
I'd join the against refund team.
west sonnet
Remember, you can’t refund time
elder mist
I wish I could refund time spent on it
kindred mason
I'm still a little lost though
You said you were getting paid per item
But only got paid once?
west sonnet
Bashing your head against a wall doesn’t count victor 😜
elder mist
@kindred mason it was not the first job, but it was the last paid one
kindred mason
So there are multiple payments?
elder mist
yep
kindred mason
And the last one was Oct 23?
west sonnet
Per asset?
elder mist
@west sonnet yep
kindred mason
Were you supposed to get paid again then for the work done after Oct 23?
elder mist
@kindred mason yep
@kindred mason no...i was supposed to get paid in september for this job...finally got paid in oct
kindred mason
So you got paid ahead of time?
elder mist
i've made the asset on mid sept
kindred mason
Did you make stuff after you got paid the last time?
elder mist
@kindred mason i did, some additional stuff, was not paid for those yet (probably will not be either)
west sonnet
You gave it to them before payment?
elder mist
@west sonnet yep, always do
west sonnet
Don’t do that in the future
digital gate
Hold that over their head for the bit about refunds
Then charge then a late fee for the amount of the requested refund. Seems to work for landlords in TN.
west sonnet
I doubt they stated that in the contract. He’s screwed on that end unfortunately
digital gate
Lol aye
elder mist
@west sonnet indeed i am
digital gate
Well if a refund policy doesn't exist then he can tell them to pound sand.
Tell em their refund is that bonus work.
west sonnet
Or just say no 😜
kindred mason
If they are some small-time indie, and you don't care, sure, keep the money
honest cipher
legit people dont ask for refunds from a freelancer
so you are better just keeping money and telling the guy to fuck off
refunds from a freelancer holy shit. What the hell
kindred mason
Issue is, YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT
west sonnet
No refund policy saves headache
digital gate
Yeah, even the legit people who won't listen to reason
kindred mason
I'm still a bit confused truthfully on this whole matter
Your story's changed a bit each time more questions are asked
😭
elder mist
@honest cipher agree with Victor, there are plenty of "i can do mmo" freelancers too
kindred mason
I mean, the thing about it is...
I could do a fucking MMO right now
with SpatialOS, that shit's possible
There's other stuff you have to consider though
digital gate
Victor you're missing the point
kindred mason
I KNOW
west sonnet
He delivered assset starting mid September. He was supposed to receive payment per asset but they didn’t do so till late October. He continued to deliver more asset a bit afterwards but hasn’t received payment. Mid December they’re trying to get a refund from the last October payment
digital gate
Lel mobile discord
west sonnet
Am I missing anything?
kindred mason
At the end of the day. If you can live with yourself by not refunding the money @elder mist , then don't. But since you came on here, asking...sounds like you may have some reservations about that.
Just make sure you're in the right in all this.
Don't need no "freelancer stole my money" drama
digital gate
From what redacted said, not only would I not refund, I would have stopped early delivery.
honest cipher
i can mmo too
actually for real
too bad the game design would be SHIT
and it would be so ugly
kindred mason
Well, I never do new contracts unless they are okay with 50% upfront, at least at first.
After some trust is gained, then I can wait for 100% after delivery.
honest cipher
what i used to do, is to start the contract with a small task
that gets paid instantly
like 1/10th of the project
digital gate
That's kinda like my policy
honest cipher
usually the guy who pays the fisrt thing will pay the rest
and then the rest comes when things are paid
i send compiled DLLs and communicate a lot
in the last case, the guy actually paid a considerable amount upfront, so i was cool with having the entire development public on a private github repo
digital gate
I have to be flexible because if I pass because of the early safety net I don't know when my next opportunity will be.
digital gate
So it can't always be even 10% upfront
In those cases we Mexican handshake the delivery
Hopefully I'm done with freelance work soon
elder mist
@digital gate opening own studio?
digital gate
Or when I return I'll have better things to show
Nay, hired.
I wish. RN it'd be a freelance studio like ironbelly if I opened my own
No point. I can't find people to partner with
kindred mason
You'll be surprised though. Being hired on full-time sometimes, just isn't worth it.
(especially if you are not truly a FTE)
elder mist
@digital gate hope it's not Krusty Burger 😃
west sonnet
At the end of the day, the contract and what's stated in there is both yours and the client's legal protection. Communicate clearly to the client, include financial obligations, delivery conditions, refund policy (which I personally say no refund once delivered), your production pipeline, and such
digital gate
I would be fte
kindred mason
Then that's not bad at least.
digital gate
Pension and all?
digital gate
Nah it is.
elder mist
@digital gate Pension not exist in my country anymore
digital gate
Money behind them, not a huge studio, but in a hub 😀
kindred mason
hub?
digital gate
ye think like LA, but not.
elder mist
@kindred mason so, what are you working on right now?
digital gate
eg a ton of companies in that city
kindred mason
eh, there a lot of companies in a lot of cities lol
digital gate
¯_(ツ)_/¯
kindred mason
aye
digital gate
I think its a good place to get on at
kindred mason
@elder mist it's freaking Christmas, trying not to work truthfully
But, I'm working on my own project, and weighing all the pros/cons for the offers I've gotten so far
elder mist
@kindred mason oh, i meant in general...since you left Contagion VR
kindred mason
Yeah, just working on my own project & reviewing offers for the new year 😃
Also, playing a lot of video games
Because that's one thing I haven't done really well over the past year or so
fading yoke
I'm envious. I can only imagine how it must feel to weigh multiple offers.
fickle hatch
We never ask for refunds, just do final payment (after advance) after we accept the work
And just eat the advance if the artist fails
fading yoke
I'm having a very good day today.
Some random person rated my Firefox add-on extension 4 stars out of 5. So I guess you could say that my career is taking off now.
Well, that's my story. Thanks for reading!
west sonnet
👎
elder mist
Sorry guys.
fickle hatch
Put it behind yourself, learn the lesson and move on 😄
digital gate
Well no use crying over refunded payments, you did what you felt was right.
fickle hatch
Do the normal human thing and spin this in positive light for you to improve your personal brand
digital gate
^
elder mist
^ bt that was the model i was talking about (well, clothing in the other file and i was lazy to merge it just for that image)
fading yoke
@digital gate I feel the same way. I feel like I'm surrounded by talent but I can't find anyone to partner with. It's understandable, though, because it requires money and I can't afford to capitalize on the talent here.
kindred mason
digital gate
I mean, right now I'd probably be down to royalty.
But the catch is that I can't find anybody that actually works well.
kindred mason
The true catch is you will never find that person
digital gate
When people want to work on a lot of stuff with you but derail a jam to the point of the entire team dropping, they're not worth working with.
kindred mason
Because you are blinded by your own... Preconceptions I guess
digital gate
ahem
kindred mason
(this is just relative)
digital gate
SOMEBODY knows what I'm talking about.
kindred mason
Well GameJams... Are a mess in itself
fading yoke
Oh yeah, my team had a guy like that in a game jam once. He bailed in like the last 15 minutes before the deadline and the programmer was weeping at his desk because the guy who bailed was the only person who we were waiting on to have the data tables populated and ready so that the game would be playable.
fading yoke
It's part of the reason why I normally try to lead jam teams and make myself in charge of the design when I do them. I felt super bad for the guy.
kindred mason
Moreso with teams
digital gate
Yeah like if you can't hold it together for 3 days....
and you bring the team down...
you're not on my permanent team.
kindred mason
You are only trying to work on something so short... And so many clashing opinions
Right. It's definitely different if you are on a permanent team versus PUG
fading yoke
I've personally found that game jam experience hasn't been that valuable tbh as a skill for getting jobs. It's had a lot of intrinsic value in building confidence, but that's about it.
kindred mason
But also. There is this misconception I think... That just because you do very well in a jam, you would do just as good in production
west sonnet
It's great for meeting people but for experience... eh, test your patience at least
digital gate
I don't feel like its an unreasonable gate for working with them in the future.
If they don't hold up on prod, well I can jam with them again.
kindred mason
@fading yoke the only experience I had before I started freelance was my gamejam work
And my degree I guess
digital gate
I clawed my way up via freelancing, and it seems like Victor kinda did.
Though that paper is quite useful IMO
digital gate
I feel like I just get pre-filtered for it.
kindred mason
Especially when it comes to offers... ROFL
But some folks understand.
I get messages for work from various places though. LinkedIn, Website, Forums, Discord, UpWork
fickle hatch
I don't team up with people intentionally, I only do organically grown teams, if that makes any sense
kindred mason
@fickle hatch no
fickle hatch
I don't accept invitations to projects, but I interact with people and if it seems like we're working out more and more, I grow relationship with them and do the project with them
kindred mason
How do you organically grow without any intention
fickle hatch
This is if we're not talking about a job, but just like, finding someone to do some project with
fickle hatch
@kindred mason if it seems like it's working out and all the team needs are my skills and it's clear what is happening, where things are going (at least on some intuitive level), then great
kindred mason
Through other means
fickle hatch
But usually people who ask me to help them don't fully know what they are asking me for
kindred mason
Like. You have another business, ft job, royalties, publisher deal
@fickle hatch well, we already talked about it earlier. Some clients are just stupid and have no idea what they are doing
No inclination of what they want, need and how to accomplish it
It's easy to ignore those usually though
fickle hatch
Yep
kindred mason
Unless they pester you via email...everyday this week
fickle hatch
I try to not interact with people like that
digital gate
I would like to not interact with those people... but money.
kindred mason
I dunno. There are a lot of jobs out there.
digital gate
👀
digital gate
I'll look at any of the ones that don't, if you wanna dump your offers onto me.
kindred mason
But there are plenty of great opportunities for remote work as well.
fickle hatch
If you get any offers on writing control software for spaceplanes, I'm up for it
kindred mason
Lol
fickle hatch
No, seriously
kindred mason
Yeah, like I would get those
kindred mason
Like. It doesn't even sound remotely fun
fading yoke
My experience has been very different from yours @fickle hatch. I've won a total of 4 awards and 3 honorable mentions/runner-ups over the past 5 game jams that I've done this year, and in almost every case my team was just random people who joined my open team on the CrowdForge site (though tbf I'd invite people back to the next jam).
digital gate
I need something I can work for about a month or so.
kindred mason
Probably not that hard either
fickle hatch
@kindred mason satellite control systems are boring and only slightly fun, your intuition is not wrong here
kindred mason
That's also an issue. Finding good work that you WANT to do. And will enjoy.
west sonnet
@fading yoke That's quite unheard of, congrats!
fading yoke
I'd like to imagine that the reason my teams did well despite being a bunch of randos is that I am a good team leader, project manager, and designer.
fickle hatch
As someone who absolutely loves to design control systems and everything related to it, satellites are an equivalent of those generic mobile games where you just implement something everyone else implemented a million times before
fading yoke
However all these recruiters don't seem so convinced
kindred mason
@fading yoke go for the production job then
fickle hatch
It was very fun to write control systems for a UAV though, because even though we were reinventing the wheel, things that fly in atmosphere get many more fieldwork and you go to test ranges more often
kindred mason
digital gate
clearly @fading yoke, as any team I've been on disintegrates.
kindred mason
Lol
fickle hatch
There's just something very good about being technically a programmer/engineer guy, but also you spend 70% of your time outside on fresh air
digital gate
and that's from people I know
west sonnet
Has anyone every got a good gig from that channel?
fickle hatch
Sitting in a lawnchair in middle of nowhere in an open field, sipping a drink of your choice, keeping a sturdy laptop on your lap and watching telemetry from the UAV buzzing circles above your head - that is a special kind of feeling for sure
The weather's great, you just kinda relax and eyeball the numbers to make sure things are going well, lazily follow the test protocols
If you get bored, you can make UAV draw a dick in the sky by setting up waypoints like that
kindred mason
@west sonnet think I may have a 20% success rate on there. Most people who are "paying" aren't paying what you want :)
(20% of when I actually pm for info)
fading yoke
I'd love to be a producer or project manager, but I don't have the network and I don't have the talent willing to work with me on projects
digital gate
No, you're royalty. IDC if you have $20 you can give me.
west sonnet
What's the most absurd offer you lot got?
digital gate
Yeah but those teams also don't wanna hear about Yeah you can get an hour of my time
kindred mason
$20 for us Americans is poop
digital gate
they want yeah I'll be your team lead
kindred mason
But for maybe someone in Russia... It's not bad
kindred mason
Russians are dirt cheap
fickle hatch
You can start doing business at that point yes
fickle hatch
A good Russian artist will be on order of $1000/mo
kindred mason
Being so cheap
Jeez... Let me be at a stage where I need to contract people for my game...
fickle hatch
Cheap, but you can go below that if you are willing to be a bit of an ass
fickle hatch
You can get down to $300/mo if you attack the Russians feeling of self-worth by invoking some USSR social fears and misconceptions
fickle hatch
$1k/mo is for an artist who does solid work, yeah. Can get a higher-end artist for 1.6k/mo
kindred mason
1.6 is still good. If solid, non-ip infringement stuff
west sonnet
1k a month is below minimum wage for many in the US...
fickle hatch
@kindred mason also yes, I strongly disagree with any methods of negotiating that attack personal freedom of choice (self-worth etc), we pay our guys exactly what is acceptable in their market
kindred mason
That's why outsourcing is so prolific in the USA
And also why people want you to relocate usually ;)
fading yoke
I make $18/month on my Patreon. Hopefully one day I hope one day I'll either be able to hire a 3D Artist or that I'll just have done enough tutorials and clocked enough hours to be able to do it all on my own.
As you can see, I'm raking in the dough
💰
west sonnet
quite 😛
fickle hatch
That's like a free tacobell each week
I'm in Cali so we don't have anything cheaper than Taco Bell D:
FYI you can stuff your belly full of quality food in Russia/CIS region for under $3
kindred mason
Yeah. What what's "quality"?
Potatoes?
I dunno anything about Russian food except from what I've learned from Orange is the New Black
kindred mason
Borsch
fickle hatch
US has a problem with food logistics as it seems to me
kindred mason
No we dont
We have a problem with being too cheap
And mass production
The bottom dollar
fickle hatch
Anyway, that's some other topic. Point is, lots of talented people are in Russia and you can hire them, but you need to be aware of cultural differences
kindred mason
fickle hatch
The people you will meet, their parents were utterly socially broken by USSR
dense isle
The people you will meet probably too
fickle hatch
So you will encounter a lot of peculiar soviet-mindedness when talking to people from that region, though it won't be an issue
kindred mason
There are cultural differences everywhere though. Not just in RU
dense isle
Then check Ukraine )
kindred mason
Even in the USA. West Side vs East Side yo
fickle hatch
@kindred mason Yeah, there always are
ashen lynx
Wages in the industry in Russia are a real joke. No way a talented specialist would stay there for long.
elder mist
@ashen lynx well, i'm thinking of relocation...but that requires some money
fickle hatch
You can relocate on a budget of ~2k EUR
digital gate
^
kindred mason
There are plenty of places that will
fickle hatch
It's not unusual for eastern europe to move first, look for job second
elder mist
@kindred mason seems like now they are looking for "Character Technical Director"...
kindred mason
Eh. Dunno. Relocation risk seems pretty cut and dry
fickle hatch
Cultural differences
kindred mason
Even if you get paid relocation. You don't know how long you are going to have that job for. One project, etc.
Now you are in a foreign country...no job..
Relocation has a lot of risks.
fickle hatch
There are many cases when people had to go back to their home country when they did it and they just ended up back at square zero
ionic mica
go cry at your embassy
kindred mason
Has nothing to do with cultural difference
@ionic mica lol. Yeah, don't think that will do much
ashen lynx
Getting your re-location covered usually implies either solid experience or exceptional skill, subjected to urgency of filling position. Re-location on your own... is a risk. Especially if you have a family, and exceptionally if you are in gamedev, considering how volatile it is.
kindred mason
Yup
fickle hatch
It would take extra convincing to get me to relocate
kindred mason
But again. Even if you get paid relocation. You don't know how long you're there for.
ashen lynx
@elder mist Mind kindly dropping name of the studio in PM ?, just to be aware of potential issues if being contracted.
flat gazelle
I've relocated thrice. I think I'm done with that now... Though, if I had to do it myself it would never have happened.
fading yoke
I'll relocate for any job. Just never have any offers, is all.
elder mist
@fading yoke have you searched for?
@fading yoke cause i still remember the title for the book you asked for
fading yoke
@elder mist I'm happy that you are now learning about my sense of humor
fickle hatch
Good luck! How was the interview going?
nova locust
It was a pretty easy interview when it comes to tech stuff
Just vector math questions and a lot of culture stuff
nova locust
I didnt start until 7 months ago
fickle hatch
The last place I worked at invited me to work there
@nova locust did the company seem fine? No weird behaviors of people around there?
nova locust
The company seemed awesome
It was Obsidian
Everyone seemed humble and genuine
Honestly a great bunch of guys and gals
nova locust
I hope so too
west sonnet
Worst case scenario: it's a good sign you're able to land an interview with such a company. Congrats and here's to hoping 😃
digital gate
I'm sure obsidian are cool dudes, and it absolutely is only a benefit to you that they even gave you time of day.
dense needle
When job hunting keep the company's growth in mind. I lost offers on more than one occasion because they had to downsize. I think MS recently made a big business deal with them? If so, this is an ideal chance to get hired.
karmic kayak
brisk solar
protip for job hunting: dont be shit
if you're at least halfway competent, companies will stumble over eachother to get you on board.
remote saffron
that really depends on a lot of factors and it is both pretty arrogant and insensitive to state something like this
fickle hatch
But there's also the little bit with the whole interacting with people thing...
shadow kelp
well, competent and likeable and communicative...but in essence it's right 😛
fickle hatch
And it helps to get a little lucky in meeting friends too...
brisk solar
allow me to be realistic here, the vast vast majority of people seeking employment within the industry, are in absolutely no way what any reasonable recruiter would consider 'employable skill level'
no employable level of skill = no employment
there's nothing arrogant or insensitive about that reality
hybrid phoenix
There's also a very large amount of people that are very competent, but not in the eyes of HR
brisk solar
the same applies to any other industry that relies on demonstable capability
hybrid phoenix
Also a very large amount of people that just sucks at presenting themselves
brisk solar
HR is not some mytical impenetrable wall that reject all the good people that 'like should totally have a job dude'
sure, SOME people might have a bit of bad luck, and unfortunately end up on the rejected pile when maybe they shouldnt have been, but if that were then still the case, they should still not have a problem getting hired ELSEWHERE, the chances of 'getting rejected by accident' twice in a row are slim, to put it lightly
the industry is quite frankly starving for qualified and capable people, and recruiters will not readily just dismiss anyone that might be worth consideration.
if you're genuinely getting chain-rejected in your applications, you might want to consider what the common denominator in that situation is.
lilac walrus
sucking at presenting yourself though, is a form of incompetence
I'd argue that being able to present your work is in itself an important trait when it comes to most game development disciplines
brisk solar
good presentation can dress up poor work and make it look appealing, good work doesnt need fancy presentation to look good
but that's reasonably subjective
I SUPPOSE
and someone worth his salt that finds himself in a position of choosing to hire someone, will be able to look past just 'presentation' and actually judge work on its own merits and actually try to look PAST just presentation alone
ashen lynx
After failing being recruited to a position, which I already occupied, by a HR manager, whom got hired through me, I have no faith in any HR in any industry in all respects, but paperwork.
brisk solar
did you consider that standards aren't set in stone?
i used to work for a company that had a clearly incompetent art director, he only had his position because he was one of the original 3 founders
the company had grown past his competences
hybrid phoenix
It's not about HR not wanting to hire good people
It's about them just not doing it because they've got tunnel vision
brisk solar
okay so its still everyone else's fault then?
'its not me that is wrong, it's these 20 HR people that ive emailed that are all wrong'
ashen lynx
Nope, it is actually quite often the case.
brisk solar
haha okay man
ashen lynx
ayep.
remote saffron
saying that if you don't get a job at the industry it means you are shit without knowing the location where you are looking for work and the profession is something I would consider arrogant tbh
I am lucky enough with my computer science degree and never had much problem myself so far, but on the art side of things.... life isn't this easy
lilac walrus
in this industry, as a newbie, I would strongly recommend willingness to relocate, even if it's temporary
it's a surprisingly small industry, which means there's only so many jobs to go around and only so many openings whereever you are
shadow kelp
yeah you really need to be willing to relocate to have a career in games
remote saffron
most of the time that is the case indeed, and it sounds way more helpful than saying that "dont be shit"
flat gazelle
I have relocated for every new job :/ though twice to the same city.
If you want a job, get good at vfx and you can pretty much pick and choose companies. Crazy amount of open positions right now
lilac walrus
VFX is one of those ones - if you're good at it, you'll always be employable
animation is similar
pastel estuary
that reminds me, need to decline some potential clients XD
lilac walrus
hah
granite brook
OH, now that you say that
brisk solar
it's funny how 'be good at your job' as career advice is now taken as 'hurtful'
granite brook
In theory a lot of things can be worded in one way or another.
It's also a skill to word stuff in a way that people won't feel attacked.
brisk solar
if you feel attacked by 'dont suck'
i dread imagining how good that person must ACTUALLY be at their chosen career path
granite brook
I would rather hire a person that currently "sucks" (as to your definition) than a person telling others to "not suck".
brisk solar
keep lying to yourself
granite brook
I'm not. I'm actually happy to help people improve.
ashen lynx
Question to gents, involved in hiring for larger corps in the industry, yet not affiliated with HR depts. How does it work for you? Do you get a pre-filtered list of candidates from HR?
shadow kelp
well, I can see all candidates, before and after HR have done their filtering
lilac walrus
generally speaking I've done all the filtering myself
but tech design tends to be a smaller department with more specialist needs, so filtering can be quite easy sometimes
(and the number of applications tends to be lower)
granite brook
I guess if the number of applications is "not too high", a second look at the filtered candidates doesn't hurt?
Probably also depends on the position an requirements
shadow kelp
HR usually just check that the CV lines up roughly with the JD, and does a phone screen to make sure they can speak English to a good enough standard
pastel estuary
I just throw out the first 10 candidates their resume's.
Dont want anybody unlucky to join the team.
pastel estuary
brisk solar
you know...
it's a sad state when being sarcastic or ironic has to be taken as serious because you genuinely cant tell the difference anymore
the world is now The Onion
granite brook
There are prople who can tell the difference though.
brisk solar
let me know when you see one
hybrid phoenix
Neur0, I just want to point out
You keep disagreeing with everyone here
But no-one's agreeing. There's quite a few pretty damn good industry-people here in this conversation that you're blatantly disregarding, despite them sharing their opinion, and just assuming that you're right and everyone else is wrong
Maybe you should be a bit more open to other peoples' takes on things 😛
brisk solar
i didn't disagree with anyone, i simply said that objective standards exist.
but you can try to take that out of context as much as you want and turn it into something it's not if you want
hybrid phoenix
And most of us agreed that they end up working out pretty poorly, and you seemed to very heavily disagree
Either way, if you don't disagree, maybe consider that your formulation is making it seem that way to people
Which is a different problem, but a problem nonetheless
E.g. this
That's pretty blatant disagreement, even though that's the feeling most of us have here
And ignorant disagreement, at that, you're not listening, you're saying people are wrong and leaving it at that
I don't really care what you say about this or what you do with it, this is just my observation
I think we could have a lot more constructive conversation than that, which would be great for all of us
(If I'm incorrectly speaking for other people here, feel free to let me know, this is just how I read this convo)
brisk solar
no, i don't consider behaving like a pussy that can't take a few words to be something to aspire to, nobody benefits from being coddled like a child and told that everything they do is good, and that mommy is proud of them.
but that seems to be exactly the sort of hugbox that the majority of people here seem to subsist in, and frankly, i find it disgusting.
i'm sure you'll take issue with this as well, because you've already made it clear that you have to take offence to everything that can be even REMOTELY taken as 'not agreeing with the cuddlebox hivemind' already anyway, so i suppose ill just show myself the door
nova locust
you ladies need to calm down
but yeah you cant expect to get replies from large companies
until you have an education or some form of professional experience
that involves releasing a product
granite brook
If you think like that, then I'm wondering what you are doing here?
This might really not be the right place for you then (:
nova locust
oh oke
hybrid phoenix
We're saying that lots of people with experience aren't reliably getting replied to by HR
Having good credentials is really important
nova locust
i have 3 years of experience
and i get like
a reply from 80% of companies i apply to
hybrid phoenix
But because of how HR works, somehow it still doesn't always work
nova locust
i've interviewed with id, naughty dog, cloud imperium, the list goes on
maybe because ION had clout though for a little bit
idk
building a linkdin helps too i think
shadow kelp
well, it's more nuanced than 'don't be bad at your job'. You can get away with just being Ok when you have a few shipped games under your belt. When you're new to the industry, you have to be very good for someone to take a risk investing the time and money in you
hybrid phoenix
(I'm also not saying that everyone sharing my opinion is amazing at their work and getting ignored despite that, they may well suck, but I do know for a fact that HR disregards lots of things for inappropriate reasons and not having enough technical knowledge Recruiters)
Don't be bad at your job is a really big part
hybrid phoenix
But it's not the only relevant thing to getting the job
nova locust
if you've released like a 2d game in unity
granite brook
There is lots of people out there that search for jobs.
There is lots of people out there who are really good and don't even know it.
The opposite also exists, like people that think they are good enough but still have to learn.
There is also nice ways of wording this whole thing instead of calling people "pussys" and such.
There are lots of people who are good at what they do but not good at presenting it, which is of course something you have to learn.
hybrid phoenix
What Cedric's saying
nova locust
same with the programmers or whomever is on that team
oh yeah
just being like BE GOOD
or something is bad advice lol
hybrid phoenix
That's what our friend above was saying, and what I meant to respond to
nova locust
if you can get an interview
and you know you wont get it
try to understand what you are missing and then learn that so well so that in the next interview you show them up
hybrid phoenix
And that's a statement I blatantly disagree with on many levels
granite brook
Another thing is that you don't need to be super awesome and the best ever.
If you are "okay" at what you do and make sure you stay in contact with the right people, you can also get jobs.
ashen lynx
I did really have negative experiences with HR calling on hiring inappropriate people from a list of better suited candidates.
nova locust
i had an onsite at id software
granite brook
We often have people at our Meetup that are looking for jobs and other way round. Just as an example.
nova locust
and when i got home they never emailed me
ever again
ruined my life for like a month and a half
but the good thing about it was that it taught me what i needed to learn
so when i got this interview at obsidian i did my very best
and i feel like i actually have a good chance
shadow kelp
pretty crap to not follow up after an onsite :/.
nova locust
ikr
hybrid phoenix
Colby, are you Breaking Point Colby?
hybrid phoenix
Yeah, I know
But that's what I've talked to you about in the past
Deathly and stuff
Last talked a year and a half ago, apparently x3
hybrid phoenix
To you
nova locust
oh yeah its been a bit
i released a game that sold well with a team
now im job hunting
flat gazelle
@ashen lynx I get to see every application as well as they are automatically put in the system. I review the portfolio and then tell the recruiters if I'm interested or not. But since I'm hiring for a very specialized role, I don't get droves of applications where a prescreening would be necessary.
Also, someone with Neuros attitude wouldn't make it past the first interview, no matter skill level.
Rule 1 - 3 is just "Don't be a dick" repeated.
brisk anchor
Dont be a dick > dont suck
flat gazelle
Indeed
If you are interested, I can teach you whatever you need to know. I can't teach you attitude.
steel creek
Well now that was a nice morning read
Well if you cant teach attitude, I certainly can, but it's not going to be the attitude you think it is
That guy was just a rude dick
The takeaway for this conversation is simply realize there are a lot of people in the industry just like him
If you can learn to listen absorb and pretty much ignore those assholes you'll do fine
flat gazelle
Fine! I can't teach good attitude then ;P
west sonnet
Duck taping someone’s mouth doesn’t count 😜
hybrid phoenix
Well that's lame
How can you change someone if you don't get to put tape over their mouth
steel creek
seriously!
kindred mason
Hm. Damn. Was I the only one that didn't diagree with his initial OP. I doubt it. But alas most people like to save face.
As for the whole attitude thing. Everyone has a different personality. And just because you may have a "nicer" personality than others doesn't mean you are going to be as effective or efficient as someone "not so nice"
To that effect, there's a place for everyone. Sometimes you have to find it, sometimes it just finds you.
steel creek
There is indeed a place for everyone
Ppl with piss poor attitudes, and "matter of fact" statements dont find too much ground inside studios
their "place" is OUTSIDE
simple
but, not everyone wants to work for EA, Disney, Sony, etc...
remote saffron
effectiveness of the team is the question here, not the individual's
and if you are the best worker ever but you kill the productivity of everyone else around you, you are not the right match for most team
steel creek
Add a person like that guy above to my team(s) and I can guarentee I will be in HR trying to decide to keep him or not
kindred mason
Oh, damn missed something. But totally agree a bit about the whole "coddling" issue in today's society
elder mist
For me "being a dick" is quite vague description.
steel creek
You dont have to be a dick to not coddle -- they are not exclusive to each other
kindred mason
The thing is. Most people are truly way too sensitive nowadays
steel creek
that I can agree
kindred mason
So anything outside of coddling would be considered "dickish"
remote saffron
that does not justify acting meh 🤷
remote saffron
e.g. telling people that they are shit if they could not get a job
kindred mason
Meh to you is different than meh to me
steel creek
he flatly stated his position, Vic
elder mist
@remote saffron Poopieman!
steel creek
[2:24 AM] Neur0: if you're at least halfway competent, companies will stumble over eachother to get you on board.```that is a flat statement
kindred mason
Aye. But what's wrong with that?
steel creek
pro tip for forums/chat lines: Dont be an asshole. News at 11
steel creek
its arrogant in the least, disingenuous as "advice" in the reality
remote saffron
the two sentence after each other is a bit more than that
elder mist
yeah, i guess it's just a bad choice of words...but idea is ok
steel creek
keep reading what he wrote
he talks about "presentation" and he obviously needs some himself
kindred mason
Yeah. I am. Lots to read.
So there's a few things missing to his statement. But in reality it's not false.
steel creek
pro tip: dont bound into a room, state your opinions as facts, and bounce cause you cant take the feeback -- that is a setup for being a loser
kindred mason
Lets say you're hideo kojima, and you announce you are leaving your company and are a free agent
Or even, can relate this back to NFL
It's a valid statement
remote saffron
that has nothing to do with being "at least halfway competent"
steel creek
how about relating it to the actual topic 😄 of industry jobs
kindred mason
Even if the wording is a bit rough
elder mist
@remote saffron why not...he stated that if you 50% competent, every studio will fight for you...
less 50% is ok too
kindred mason
Yeah yeah. It's still valid. Let's say hmm. Someone well know in our small UE4 industry...like maybe Matthew w. He's got a lot of exposure
Now, let's say he wants to look for a job.
You don't think there would be people trying to be all over him?
granite brook
He'll most likely get a job offer before he even starts searching.
elder mist
btw, there are no people with 100% competence...even in Epic no one knows UE4 at 100%
kindred mason
Same for @granite brook.... Let's say you want to be a FA.
granite brook
Looking at the UT code, that's correct.
steel creek
@kindred mason you did pick a perfect example in MattW. He IS very competent. Companies are not flailing over themselves to hire him. So the original guys premise is wrong.
elder mist
@granite brook isnt a UT community made?
kindred mason
@steel creek but is he actively looking?
granite brook
Well yeah, if you are known to people like me or Mathew, it's not the biggest issue to find work.
Rather the opposite. But then again, we did a lot to be where we are today.
kindred mason
Ehh. He has a job though...
steel creek
perfect. example.
kindred mason
I thought
granite brook
:D Bad example I guess
kindred mason
Yeah oops
steel creek
pro tip: Making blanket statements is dumb.
kindred mason
There's something wrong there then
granite brook
Pro Tip: Stop the pro tips.
steel creek
appearntly. 🙄
kindred mason
I think that's also an issue I see on here
granite brook
Thing is, people who don't know him won't directly consider him either.
It's "easy" to get something related to UE4 maybe.
But there is more than UE4 out there.
elder mist
Pro Tip: Make pro tips if you are at Hideo Kojima level.
kindred mason
A lot of people saying they want to do things .. but don't seem to be willing to actually put in the effort
steel creek
but that shouldnt matter! We were told that is he is good enough and wants it, companies will fall over themselves.....
granite brook
I'm not agreeing with Neuro
granite brook
I mean, I was the one infracting him 😅
kindred mason
They assume everything will be put in a silver platter right in front of them
steel creek
I woul dhave torn him up, but I woke up too late 😄
granite brook
Who is "they"?
granite brook
Oh he's still here, don't worry :D
remote saffron
well calling them shit will help for sure
granite brook
There is tons of different people everywhere...
steel creek
fact: everyone is shit at some point
kindred mason
If calling someone shit makes then quit GameDev. They had no chance in this industry to beign with
No offsense to any thinskinners
granite brook
Doesn't justify calling them shit though
remote saffron
really?
kindred mason
Yes really
granite brook
If someone isn't good yet, the correct way is to help or stay out of their way
remote saffron
idk nobody called me shit directly related to gamedev before, I was lucky with first 2 jobs I guess 😂
granite brook
Not calling them shit
granite brook
Your point is that saying it shouldn't make them quit, otherwise they shouldn't be here in the first place
But that's also wrong
kindred mason
Nah
steel creek
I get not coddling, but i dont think the answer is to pick up a flamethrower and go to town
kindred mason
The thing is. This world is not sunshine and rainbows and unicorns.
granite brook
I also don't get what people care about others being good or bad...
remote saffron
obviously not
kindred mason
Right. I agree that just flaming people for no reason is silly.
steel creek
I care cause there are potential hires in here
kindred mason
That won't get you anything
granite brook
If you hire, maybe.
steel creek
Why would I want to shit on a place that can get ppl into industry and work on problems?
I do
remote saffron
and btw I get your point and half-agree, but imo toxic communities are a bigger issue than over-sensitive people
steel creek
!: Why would I want to shit on a place that can get ppl into industry and work on problems? just ot clarify, that is what lounge is for
remote saffron
especially because oversensitive people are hurting themselves while toxic communities can hurt others
kindred mason
Aye
honest cipher
i think oversensitive people are a lot worse
kindred mason
Heh
remote saffron
define oversensitive 😄
steel creek
dont tell oversensitive ppl that @honest cipher they will say you are being overbearing
granite brook
The stupid "snowflake" term i guess
kindred mason
I mean. The thing is. The world we live in. The past ten-twenty years with Participation Trophies and the such
honest cipher
if everything is offensive, you cant get anything done
kindred mason
Really has affected how people perceive the world
honest cipher
as you are allwys thinking if this or that could be offensive
granite brook
If you state something that is def not offensive and someone still finds it offesnive, then that's their problem.
kindred mason
How society views itself
granite brook
If you go around calling people shit, then that's your problem.
ashen lynx
Industry could really use more militarism. Drills and stuff. Helps with sensitivity.
kindred mason
Lol
honest cipher
lol
ashen lynx
😉
remote saffron
...
kindred mason
While I agree. I can't lol
remote saffron
military approach does not really work well in creative industry
granite brook
Well idk, being sensitive or not. I still think what Neur0 said or rather how he worded it was just wrong
And then it's not the fault of the sensitive person, but of him just lacking the skill of not being an ass
kindred mason
What he said wasnt wrong. But how he said it, yes. Imho
granite brook
Even what he said was wrong. "Water is wet. Good day."
remote saffron
@honest cipher you need a toxic community of over-sensitive people to make that a serious issue imo
kindred mason
Just go to Reddit
honest cipher
or github
remote saffron
idk, never had any issue with the few reddit sites I've read 🤷
kindred mason
I dunno. I have been meaning to say a few things every once in a while to a certain someone who frequents here. But I never know what the right (or wrong) thing to say is. So I don't say anything. Which sucks. Because I want to help that person.
honest cipher
@remote saffron reddit is too big, so there are tons of different things
kindred mason
Issue is, totally over sensitive person.
granite brook
Well it's not like everyone knows how to do that @kindred mason
honest cipher
the funniest thing is the oversensitive parts, wich get triggered as fuck about anything
granite brook
We have people here who are terrible at helping others
honest cipher
and then you get the ANTI oversesitive parts
wich get triggered from the oversensitives getting triggered
shitfest ensues
granite brook
And then there is me, not even finding it worth to invest into popcorn for that shit
honest cipher
obligatory "this video will make you angry" youtube presentation
wich explains the entire effect
kindred mason
Heh. Dunno. Never liked walking on eggshells.
once it's like that. Takes out a lot from a person
elder mist
Some people are like:
- What color it is?
- Blueish?
- ...
*Some time later - Well thank you! You a**hole. It was BLUE!
- That's what I said.
- No You didn't!
kindred mason
What lol
remote saffron
if you point your criticism towards the behaviour or the issue, and not on the person, that already helps a lot
kindred mason
Aye. But if the person is the one that's probably the issue.
It's not like you can say... Hey buddy... You might want to go see some counseling
Well. Guess you could
remote saffron
I'm generally offensive if I don't pay attention, even in real life unfortunately, but most of the time I don't have trouble realizing why I said the wrong thing to someone, and with practice, you can get better 🤷 there are some totally hopeless people, in that case just avoiding them is the best I can do
elder mist
@honest cipher from CGP Grey ? it was good
honest cipher
@elder mist yup, that one
thas why "walled" social networks are such a shitshow, i really dislike them
a discussion in a thing like this, while its still kind of limited, has people of many backgrounds on it
but on reddit, or facebook, that purely DOESNT happen
remote saffron
when it's about counseling I assume that's not the general case but the extrem here 🤔
honest cipher
there is some real level of polarization
becouse a left leaning guy will be on the left leaning subs, and a right leaning guy on the right leaning subs, and then both radicalize themselves
remote saffron
where are the both are retarded subs?
honest cipher
actually nearly nonexistant or not popular at all
and if then we get paid shills and others causing havoc.. oh shit
elder mist
@honest cipher yeah, i'm reading some local russian "game dev related" websites/portals...and that is quite a mess. There are some wise people, but majority is ...
ant it's not just age issue
honest cipher
in spain, both the ultra-left and the ultra-right are getting a lot of votes
funny enough, almost equally
insert Thanos quote "all balanced"
elder mist
@honest cipher a good balance 😃
honest cipher
not sure tho, it ends up as a clownhouse in parlament and similar
remote saffron
we have that without the left
honest cipher
but yeah, not to go politic, but i really dislike polarization
elder mist
i wonder if it's the same for US, iirc last elections there were almost 50/50