Taking away the ones that actually lead to interviews, 6.
#career-chat
fading yoke
fickle hatch
I got invited to do a job out of college based on what was effectively my portfolio
I didn't actually have a portfolio, but the person who invited me to the job was well aware of what projects I worked on at that point
There's a ton of luck and networking involved
dense needle
I ended up going indie, and becoming an investor. Two smartest moves of my life. 3 things that can help. Be local, go to GDC (at least you'll get an idea what they are looking for), network. Above that is experience, especially AAA experience. On the very very bottom is college degrees. The degrees can even work against you. Like the Art Institute, any for profit college.
fading yoke
@dense needle Where did you get enough money to become an investor, though?
dense needle
Crypto, stocks. If you are familiar with Gary Vee on twitter? My method was similar to his. Turn $0 into $100, turn $100 into $500. It's slow, but eventually you get enough. Takes around 2-3 decades. (Unless you're rich)
plucky hearth
Just flipping?
rough dirge
Was it during a boom or consistent returns/dividends @dense needle ?
dense needle
Depends how you play it. I prefer steady and slow. Thus the 2 decades. You make less mistakes that way.
finite osprey
@dense needle I've got a friend attending the Art Institute in San Fransisco. He wants to be a 3D modeler for games.
I was wondering why he didn't seem to be improving after 3 years.
west sonnet
That's something you should be asking said friend
fickle hatch
@plucky hatch tbh different things for different people
I would be bored out of my mind doing investment stuff
I like to work on engineering problems that involve real world vehicles and such 😄
fickle hatch
But should still keep an open mind to things
dense needle
@plucky hatch I did use it to make games. I can do a ton of things. Experience you rack up in those decades allows you a mountain of options. @finite osprey Typically it takes 5 years to begin to hit master level. Like being a tournament champion you have to focus on two things. Hours invested and shortcuts. Take apart other people's art. See how they made it.
fickle hatch
Heh. I agree on the 5 years thing
Looking back on my current project, it took be about 4-5 years to get to a point where I can consider myself a professional in that specific narrow engineering branch
dense needle
I hit master level in 7 years. Back in 2002 it was a lot harder. 512mb ram. I remember my PC crashing every 3-4 hours. There's such an archive to learn from. Whenever stuck, invert your approach, focus on the outline for 3d models. Get used to the front and side view. Then the rest is filling it in.
fickle hatch
I started with super low resolution crappy almost unreadable electric schematics 😄
And reverse engineering
brisk anchor
You defintly dont want to be surrounded by people who is limiting to you or your progress
almost contradicting tho. If they're not limiting you, then you might be limiting them... 😛
peak wadi
Hey everyone! not sure about if it's a correct place to ask, just curious: is it allowed for Epic Games employees to work (in a spare time) on some own game projects (based on UE4 or even other engines)?
In common, is there a common rule for this in game industry? or it only depends on a specific company/NDA/etc?
remote saffron
idk for epic, and it depends
but usually the contract contains some total bs, but it's just because they wanna play safe
you will need to read your contract and talk about those, they can even modify part of it in some case
for obvious reasons you won't be allowed to do a very similar game most likely, but most place should be fine with totally other game projects 🤷
both companies I have worked for required me to ask for permissions for own projects, but they always allowed me to work on those after I asked 🤷
lilac walrus
most companies contracts will include some kind of non-compete clause
exactly what that contains will vary
honest cipher
the mayority of contracts are BS
they just add everything and the kitchen sink
you need to read it
and you need to discuss the bullshit it contains
peak wadi
sure I will read it, just wanted to know about if it's a common practice or not.
E.g. I will tell "hey it's a BS let's remove this from my contract!" and they can told me "why, it's in every gamedev company's contract so we will not remove this, you will not find a job without this".
I understand about non-compete case, for sure - it make sense in case of forbidding to work on a similar project, but not on any pet-project.
dense needle
If they have any projects while working for a company. It must be out of sight. I remember when I worked at Target in 1999 they had a clause where I couldn't also work at Kmart. Hire a lawyer to summarize the contract for you, before signing. Unless you are good at reading legal. Most contracts are the same, minus the crazy stuff like EA. 100 pages, or was it 1,000? It's way too much.
plucky hatch
Hi! Now that I'm getting more familiar with C++ and Blueprints, I'm wondering what the best way to improve my portfolio is for when I eventually have to apply for a job. What types of systems do recruiters look for in an applicant and how do I make myself stand out?
dense needle
If possible I recommend attending GDC. You'll get a lot of advice on what's needed. Otherwise, look for the GDC archive videos on the subject. Look for the proper keynotes.
plucky hatch
Do the Expo tickets work for that or would I need a higher level of ticket?
dense needle
The base entry tickets give you access to the job floor. The most important section. The rest you can watch in video archives.
plucky hatch
make ur job of ur hobby is the best advise i think
flat gazelle
It will also very likely destroy that hobby, eventually.
fickle hatch
If you have more than one hobby and you're willing to sacrifice one, plus you're really good at it, then sure, you can turn hobby into a job
flat gazelle
Agreed
fickle hatch
It might be good advice that the job should be at least somewhat fun and if it's no fun at all, it's a good idea to change it. But job is job first and foremost, fun second
Hobbies are kinda the opposite
Fun first, specifics later
brisk anchor
Some things might be fun as a hobby but not as a work 😛
To much of it becomes boring etc
fickle hatch
Mmm
I kinda dealt with that, sorta
What I do wasn't super strictly a hobby, but I moved from doing a lot of mundane work (of which there was little at first) to making others do mundane work for me (after it turned into a proper job)
If that sorta makes sense
ashen lynx
Turning hobby into a job definitely takes a good deal of enjoyment from it.
high whale
Thats why it should go from job to career :p
peak holly
if i were to make assets and use them in a paid game am i still fine to sell them on the marketplace or not?
steel creek
if you own the rights to them, sure.
peak holly
how?
strong shoal
@peak holly You own anything you create (at least in the U.S.)
west sonnet
Most studios won't let you resell an custom order. However, if it wasn't mentioned in the agreement. It's basically fair game for both parties
lilac walrus
pretty much
unless you sign away the rights to those assets, you can basically do what you want with them
peak holly
okay thx
fickle hatch
Some countries but not the US distinguish authorship and copyright
steel creek
the US makes a distinction
if you are smart, your agent wont sell you a contract that lets your publishers take your copyrights.
keep in mind this also applies to trademark and patent law as well
you can create many things, and not "own" them
barren lotus
Has there ever been a case where someone made a product in their free time that took off enough that a publisher exercised their contractual rights to own it?
fickle hatch
@steel creek does it? It seemed like there wasn't a big distinction between the two, or the meaning was different from european
barren lotus
Well that's derivative work, was asking more about like if John Doe is working for EA or Activision but at home they start making the next Candy Crush.
plucky hatch
I want to be an indie developer - I'm not super skilled though - I know a bit of Unity and Unreal. I enjoy Unreal more. I don't mind working for a big company but I feel I would lose some creative freedom. On the other hand making games is very hard and I want a social life too.
spice dagger
I think the best thing for you right now then given that statement, you should focus on increasing your Skills.
If you have no skills no one will hire you, so you wont need to worry about "losing creative freedom."
Take it one step at a time.
Focus of building your skills and experience
plucky hatch
That's what I'm doing but I need money too
spice dagger
Then think about prospective job opportunities
Well get a job you can do now to offset your lack of skills in the industry you want to work in.
plucky hatch
I do manual work
spice dagger
Great. Increase your game dev skills on your time off.
plucky hatch
Hardly have any but ok
spice dagger
Learning how to make games doesnt happen overnight mate. It takes hard work and dedication. Like every other skill.
plucky hatch
Of course not, and I understand you are trying to help me. In an ideal world everyone could work on their ambitions and hobbies, sadly money is a necessity and social life is important too 😃
spice dagger
Priorities. Sometimes you need to sacrifice now in order to set yourself up for later in life.
Time management, if you can be effective at managing the time you have, you will be ahead of the game.
"Fail to plan and you plan to fail"
fickle hatch
Just remember that as with any other thing, you'll need something like 5 years before you're good at doing it (but on the other hand, if you start and maintain momentum, you can be confident you'll get there)
plucky hatch
I'm a graduate too
languid parcel
@plucky hatch do what I did
Move into the cheapest place you can find
After saving up a little bit of money
Think my rent was like £150/month
lilac walrus
where the heck does one have to live to rent for £150 a month?
plucky hatch
@languid parcel that's what I'm planning but how can you get that cheap 😮 also I'd need to share and would prefer friendly and English speaking 😃
or don't mind alone but that is more expensive...
languid parcel
house
outskirts of newcastle
get as cheap as like £110/month
but that's obv like
1 bedroom
small place
dense needle
Autodesk Maya is still half off. If you need 3d software it's one of the best tools out there. (Watch it go to $500 after I recommend it.)
honest cipher
looks at houdini at 270 dollars
and blender at free
lmao no way in hell maya is worth it
dense needle
Agreed. Which is why I made the $500 joke. There's a rumor the company is going through serious financial troubles. Given their stock action and price drops. I'm not surprised.
honest cipher
literally the only reason you would want to use maya as an indie is for FBX
might as well get modo or houdini
at least they bring serious value
dense needle
Almost half of their holdings is debt. In a growth economy. That's going to be massive blow in a market crash.
I'm using Houdini BTW.
fading yoke
@dense needle Is Maya a one-time payment or is it a subscription like Photoshop?
dense needle
Rental. The worst kind.
dense needle
Yep.
dense needle
There is no pay to own option anymore. I own Maya 6 and Maya 2008. I legally can't sell my copies.
honest cipher
at least houdini at 270 dollas a year its more reasonably priced
same with Substance
but maya at more than a thousand a year is absurd
specially given that blender does everything maya does for free
dense needle
I hope Autodesk doesn't buy Houdini. Their modus operandi.
honest cipher
they havent bought zbrush or modo yet
but houdini is truly a massive competitor to maya
maya is often used as pipeline center, and customized a lot
no one big uses default maya
but houdini is much better as pipeline center due to the proceduralism
dense needle
I thought they bought modo?
It's mentioned in their wiki. But just as an addition. Phew.
rancid wedge
I am doing a project for school about the gamedev industry and I have 2 questions. Are there any major costs other than college for getting a job? And also what is the average salary for a gameplay developer?
west sonnet
Gameplay developer isn't a position. There's gameplay designer and gameplay programmer however.
rancid wedge
I meant gameplay programmer
west sonnet
They’re fairly rare. Usually only AAA studios will look for them. Lowest would probably be 60k. Averaged for an accredited individual would be 80k-100k
lilac walrus
I know gameplay programmers who earn £16k, and I know others over £100k
west sonnet
Indeed it depends on the subset of the industry too and location
lilac walrus
Gameplay programming is not a hard job to get so long as you get a little experience and are willing to relocate
Good code is always in demand
rancid wedge
For my project I am studying local studios, like Epic Games and Redstorm (Ubisoft), so it would be for AAA. I am already well versed in indie development 😃
Thanks for your help!
barren lotus
We're in NC too!
dense needle
@rancid wedge Personally? Do not ever pay for a college degree. Test your way in. Get a degree in a country where it's free. In my state of NY there are colleges that are free. That debt will wreck you. Watching over 1,000 students freak out at GDC, realizing $65k debt is there, and they were just told they need to spend one more year on their craft. Most never make it in for that reason.
fading yoke
When I was in University they told me that undergraduate educations are pretty much the same regardless of what school you go to (e.g. a physics major from a blue collar school will learn the same stuff as a physics major from an ivy league school). What really matters is the Graduate school because that's where you specialize in something relatively unique.
fickle hatch
I can't imagine how stressful would it be if I had college debt on me
I spent less on doing our train game than what people owe for college =\
lilac walrus
undergrad educations are not the same depending on what school you go to - they vary wildly
the problem is the quality of education in this field is rarely related to cost
rancid wedge
I am trying to avoid student loans, so I am listing in-state schools with pretty low tuition
lilac walrus
not a bad idea tbh
fading yoke
@rancid wedge That's what I did, but it didn't work out for me
rancid wedge
It’s always a risk, but there is still financial aid.
high whale
Aye I stayed in my state of texas and started at a community college for computer science
acoustic zealot
Get Set Games has been spamming pretty much all work related forums/boards as of late. Is there no restrictions for cluttering channels?
frozen remnant
Hey guy, so I was wondering what skills would be the most useful to get a job as a c++ gameplay programmer?
frozen remnant
oh sorry, I meant like some certain experience with algorithms or external tools
stuff I can study in uni
I'm a computer engineering student with 2 semesters till graduation
so I was wondering what I can do during them to increase my chances
lilac walrus
generally speaking, generic software development skills are usually the most useful
knowing things like sorting algorithms etc also handy
lilac walrus
yeah, could be useful
frozen remnant
basic opengl mostly
lilac walrus
especially if it's orientated towards 3c
*3d
learning some basic shader stuff etc is good to have in the back of your mind
lilac walrus
rather than make a game, make a small specific feature that would be used in a game
it will allow you to go into specific depth, rather than spread yourself thin and not get anything significant completed
frozen remnant
oh
I might work with a team actually
so I will try to focus on a specific feature and stick with that
lilac walrus
even so, narrow focus with sufficient depth is always best
it allows you to talk about solving a specific problem
which is what game programmers do of course
frozen remnant
can you suggest an example for how specific this task can be?
lilac walrus
generating navigation data, and having pathfinding AI is usually a good one
lilac walrus
no problem
honest cipher
for reference about gameplay programmer
PUBG right now is still looking for more UE4 expert programmers
and its VERY highly paid for a game programmer position, they are paying me more than some of the job offers for a team lead in UK were
the requirements to get the job are basically:
some experience making games in general (ue4 or not)
expert knowledge of UE4 networking
the test they give to candidates is to implement a feature on ShooterGame. Not very high difficulty
still, i see basically every single candidate fail spectacularly
becouse i see the lead reviewing the things and most of time the candidate fucked up so badly its quite funny
they are having so many issues finding candidates
frozen remnant
I don't think I will pass that either haha
tho I'm mostly interested in the networking part of unreal or at least incorporating it into gameplay side of thing
the thing is, there are not unreal studios here
so I have to either find a job abroad or work remotely
honest cipher
the test i did is "implement a sticky grenade to shootergame"
mental viper
can you describe whats expert knowledge on networking?
honest cipher
@mental viper actually knows wtf he is doing on ue4 replication
mental viper
any ping requirements?
honest cipher
including security and performance
no
they leave it mostly free to see what the candidate does
you can ask them for stuff of course
mental viper
id replicate halo style grenades and stick it on the server 🤔
honest cipher
its not that easy mate
mental viper
yeah i know
honest cipher
thats why its a brilliant test
you need to predict and replicate the grenade properly
mental viper
yeah i know
honest cipher
and of course, be ready to defend it in an interview
mental viper
you need "synced" time for that right?
honest cipher
no
i went a bit overkill on mine
mine had both hybrid tracing and server tracing, also the way the "attachment" replicated was the best of every candidate
mostly due to my experience with multiplayer prediction and proper clientside code for my VR multiplayer projects
mental viper
tracing?
honest cipher
how do you think the grenade looks for targets?
the grenade is a sticky grenade. I interpreted it as the halo style
so it bounces on walls
but it will attach to player
mental viper
yeah, so cant you do that through collision system?
honest cipher
you could
but tracing is better in most cases
do not rely on the "On Hit" and SPECIALLY On Overlap events
enabling overlap events are the most expensive shit in unreal engine
should be off by default on everything, and possibility to straight up disable it on the project settings
west sonnet
Why is it so expensive?
honest cipher
@west sonnet becouse every time you move an object that can do overlap events, it will perform sweeps to check for collisions
this can get expensive extremelly fast
west sonnet
Oh god
honest cipher
it is straight up pathological if you ever use it in a skeletal mesh
becouse if the skeletal mesh has 30 capsules, it will do 30 capsule sweeps everytime you do a "SetActorLocation"
and every frame of animation
and, btw, this is all singlethreaded
with traces, at least you can do async traces and ship them to cores
mental viper
it does sweeps even with CCD disabled?
honest cipher
yes
mental viper
oh god
honest cipher
oh god indeed
OnHit events also check collisions every time you move something
im not kidding, for DWVR (my vr shooter) the PSVR port ran at 20 FPS on first boot
and it was 70% due to OnOverlap event bloating the fuck out of all the enemy movement
frozen remnant
I guess my goal for the next 6 month would be to make a sticky grenade and not using collisions lol
mental viper
so for the grenade... did you do any client side prediction?
honest cipher
yes
mental viper
for the path?
frozen remnant
tbh I just like the field and I would like to continue with it even if with a slightly different approach
mental viper
how did you handle server correction if the nade actually didnt stick
honest cipher
server overrides
mental viper
im like imagining wobbling it back on its path when it doesnt stick actually
honest cipher
btw, its not enough to make the grenade, you need to actually defend the design in an interview
so you need to Know unreal networking
mental viper
yeah
honest cipher
and general game networking
but if your knowlede of unreal networking is really good, then you are golden
mental viper
for lot of networking stuff, theres also the game feel to consider
which is why i guess they want you to defend it
honest cipher
also cheating
mental viper
oh right, pubg
honest cipher
yes
its a competitive game
with tons of hackers prying at it
if you make a mistake on the security, it WILL get hacked
mental viper
did they have someone during the interview to focus on the security aspect?
frozen remnant
btw speaking of heavy sweeps
honest cipher
@mental viper the interview was with the senior programmer
frozen remnant
does that mean to avoid collision profile traces?
honest cipher
actually, no
its best to use collision profiles as much as you can
physx has them as special cases, so if you trace against the TRACE_CHARACTER profile, then it will ONLY trace against those
and will not do calculations with walls, for example
wich is sweet
mental viper
so OnOverlap is more manageable on static actors?
honest cipher
OnOverlap should be used strictly for static collision
and MAYBE on the capsule of the objects
but very, VERY limited
just keep in mind that OnOverlap increases the cost of moving that actor by a considerable amount
frozen remnant
oh nice, thanks! I heard in an unreal stream before the profile traces were more expensive so it's better to avoid them
mental viper
moving colliders with block response are only doing sweeps with CCD?
pastel pebble
@honest cipher sorry if i overlooked anything, but im wondering: did you move from UK to korea for a pubg job?
oh, this is all from yesterday 😄
dense needle
Here's the order of priority for getting a job in the game industry. 1.) Experience, AAA shipped products is the highest. 2.) Location, GDC 3.) Networking, Application Timing 4.) Talent 5.) Demo/Resume/CV 6.) Age 7.) College Degree. Never forget where that degree is on the list. It will change over the years. It has changed over the years. But generally the degree is on the bottom.
What does the degree get you long term? Usually higher paying jobs. But only after you're in a full time position.
fickle hatch
A college degree is a proof that you have basic sense of responsibility and basic time management skills, a proof that you handled some basic challenge in your life. I don't really see it as much more than that
dense needle
I've seen it help people with promotions, climb the ladder in the game industry. Above that? It's a giant debt chain, and sadly companies like EA will ignore you if they know it's something like the Art Institute.
plucky hatch
All the people that I know in the industry get jobs, because of friends.
They don't need a portfolio or a resume
It's just networking
dense needle
Yep, that's why I listed it as #3.
fickle hatch
@dense needle My degree helped a TON with immigration
dense needle
Didn't know they factored that. Interesting.
fickle hatch
Yep! If you immigrate into the US, a degree gives you a much easier path forward
dense needle
Congrats!
woeful dirge
So I use the k&r brace placement indentation style (starting brace on the same line as function signature), but I can't help notice that every tutorial I watch for game dev they use the allman where the first brace goes in a new line. Something about the allman style just bothers me, but does anyone know if simple differences in coding style like these make an impact when job hunting? If going with allman would increase my chances for being within the "gaming" standard then hell I'd like to know or do companies generally don't care?
lilac walrus
you'll work with whatever standard the company has, and outside of that it doesn't matter so much
braces on a new line is very much the standard outside of books though
the reason that paradigm exists is to reduce the number of lines required in print xD
vernal wolf
c++ gamedev is usually next line
most web things are usually same line
enterprise is whoever started the codebase decided
either way, showing adaptability is more important than actual preference
but if you start a religious war and you're on the wrong side, no one will like you
steel creek
2:38 PM] Allar: either way, showing adaptability is more important than actual preference
embrace this
fickle hatch
We have a slightly weird code style in the simulation core - if I was hiring an additonal C++ developer, I would favor those who can adapt to this code style and pick it up very quick
fading yoke
@vernal wolf How do you show adaptibility in an interview? Do you just say that you're flexible? Do you point to something in your portfolio?
lilac walrus
you describe times you've needed to be adaptable
exactly how you've been adaptable will depend on your individual circumstances
plucky hatch
You tell them or show them how you've been a champion in multiple fields (ex: eSports games, sports, 3D art, 2D art, programming, design, etc.).
tacit siren
Seriously, if a candidate ever told me that, i wouldn't hire that person if it was last person on earth applying for the job
plucky hatch
There is always a way to present things nicely.
tacit siren
I don't even ask if they have a uni degree
because i just don't care, i just care what they can demonstrate they can do
plucky hatch
Precisely why I said show them you ve been a champion in multiple different fields. That is exactly what adaptabilty is about. Plus it shows determination, persistence, problem solving, an ability to learn and a higher intelligence (experience).
tacit siren
i test adaptability by asking them how they would approach a problem slightly/somewhat above their skill level
plucky hatch
I personally dont like that approach lol.
But whatever works for you.
tacit siren
i know they will eventually get stuck, and need something explained to proceed
hybrid phoenix
@plucky hatch Adaptability isn't about whether you can do lots of things though, or how much you've taught yourself
tacit siren
the moment that explanation is given though, their reaction to it usually decides if they get the job
hybrid phoenix
It's about how well you can learn new things when they're introduced to you randomly and how quickly you can change your workflow
And Zlo, while I get why you'd do that, have you ever considered that it's really nerve-racking for an interviewee (depending on their experience) to be asked something where they're like "Crap I can't do this"?
That might slightly skew how they'll deal with the situation 😛
plucky hatch
@hybrid phoenix
In order to reach the top in any field you need to learn how to break your own bad patterns and develop new ones.
tacit siren
yeah, like our profession is stress-free 😄
hybrid phoenix
Yeah, you have to break your own bad patterns and develop new ones
But I can assure you that when I feel like I'm being set up for failure (speaking from experience with some applications that did this sort of thing) I'll act differently from how I'd normally tackle a problem like that
By nerve-racking I didn't necessarily mean stressful
But when it's unclear whether the interviewers are fucking with you to see your thought process or you're just screwing up on all sides it can really change how the person behaves
I can do stuff in stressful situations just fine
But stuff like that gets on my nerves quite a bit
And with the applications I'm looking back at I wasn't the only one
remote saffron
from my experience profession in one field doesn't mean anything, some people can handle stress well in their own area and are totally lost in another, so just because you were the best something unrelated ever I wouldn't hire you for a programmer job
lilac walrus
How someone approaches a totally new problem is usually quite telling; to many people with a hammer, every problem is a nail. It's not always about having the right answer off the bat, but about the process used to reach a reasonable conclusion
hybrid phoenix
Which I agree with, Ambershee, but I don't think setting them up for failure in an already stressful situation is the way to see how they usually deal with their programming problems
lilac walrus
I don't need to know how good you are at X,Y or Z, I want to know how you'll react when faced with B you've never seen before, hehe
plucky hatch
it isnt like you have many tools or time to work with during an interview.
hybrid phoenix
But alas, that's what I feel like
plucky hatch
unless I dont know, you give me a computer, pen tablet, google, paper and pen etc
hybrid phoenix
I'm also fine with being confronted with new things, as long as it's clear that it's either a question you're not expecting to be solved in a particular way, and you'll keep asking questions anyway
plucky hatch
speed modeling test.. model a car, a gun orwhatever lol
hybrid phoenix
(All of the stuff I'm saying here is in regards to logic-heavy positions, btw, not artist roles)
plucky hatch
if someone can show me that they are both very artistic and logical... they usually are the best ones.
hybrid phoenix
I'd say that depends on the role, though
tacit siren
its not about setting them up for failure
its seeing how they step through solving a tough problem, and even more about seeing if they enjoy learning one or two new things they will learn by (partially or entirely) solving it
to get that insight you have to go above their skill level, but not far enough above for them to be completely lost
flat gazelle
Agreed. I hire problem solvers. Best way of testing that is by presenting a problem they haven't solved before.
Some people get angry or frustrated and thus fail the test while others become like a kid who just got a new puzzle, wanting to test things and send out an endless stream of questions.
remote saffron
and how confident are you in the hiring process in general? the impression I got from the shared stories between university friends is that it is far from perfect, and way too much luck is involved - and also, preparing to the interview via solving interview question like problems help way more than actually just working in the field 🤔 (general IT jobs for big companies, not game dev tho)
kindred mason
You don't need any of that
remote saffron
I think it's just too hard to decide if someone would be good at the job or not in a few hours (except for obvious no way cases)
kindred mason
Just some guts
Bulldoze through your interview questions with guts
Also, and this is super important (that I've found anyway)...be very honest
With yourself and your interviewer
You might not meet every single requirement (but they might not even care that you do)
ashen lynx
How can one prepare for an interview? (Besides knowing the address and time and think over wages). Never understood that line of thinking.
remote saffron
big companies like google and fb are even giving you books to read lol 😄
and there are those typical algorithmic problems you have to solve...
kindred mason
Although, I have had "interview questions" sent to me in advance. something like a "test"
remote saffron
which would normally prove that you are clever and all but in reality sometimes it just shows that you have solved every single one of them you could find in the internet
ashen lynx
I fully agree with Victor about being fully honest during interview. Worked great so far. Viewed from both sides.
flat gazelle
Couldn't agree more. If you are at the interview, you have probably already passed the skill check so you are in the ballpark of what's needed. The interview is to see who you are and how you handle situations. What the interviewer Wants to hear is irrelevant. YOU need to be a match, not an interview persona.
honest cipher
the interviewer also wants to know that you arent full or shit or faking the stuff (can happen)
thats why there are things like coding tests "live", or an interview where you discuss the code you wrote for a test
plucky hatch
kind of too basic
The scope of the project and amount of inheritance can be the biggest challenge.
like with how many balls can you juggle all at the same time?
honest cipher
the tests themselves can vary. Ive never seen 2 companies doing the same one
they tend to work great to find candidates
some times the lead programmer at pubg is checking out the assignment results from candidates, and its impressive how easily you can filter people
a lot of them looked great "in paper" ,but then turns out they couldnt do shit at the assignement, or they created something that was terrible
fading yoke
There are a lot of things that can easily go wrong on the candidate's end that will lead to false negatives, though.
honest cipher
of course, but i think thats a fairly low chance. The assignement in this case is something that can be done well in a few hours, and they give you a week
in some cases, ive seen extrmelly hard assignments
if you do it well, you automatically get the job
in those cases, i think you can indeed get false negatives, due to people just not being able to find the time to do it
fading yoke
Maybe your favorite esoteric algorithm puzzle is something they've never seen before and can't just solve on the spot.
Maybe the job has you working with Unreal C++ but the candidate is supposed to use only the STL to solve a puzzle that requires doing things they'll never do outside of coding tests.
Maybe you want them to run their solution in front of you on a shared screen but they made a typo in their Makefile that they've never seen before and they can't fix it in the allotted time so they fail because of that.
Maybe they do all of their work in a certain way (e.g. writing Unreal C++ in Visual studio) and for the coding test you force them to use a different tool they've never seen before or they need to implement something in a way they've never had to do before and never will have to outside of this coding test.
My point is, a lot can go wrong and lead to false negatives.
honest cipher
thats your fault from the employer side
i can say ive had luck, the assignements in general ive done were very relevant
for example, pubg is to add a small feature to ShooterGame
they do that becouse PUBG is shootergame but grown up
fading yoke
One time I was given a coding test where I was only allowed to use Python to implement a back-end API handler. The job was for Javascript front-end stuff.
honest cipher
in other cases, i got a job to make a small prototype game in UE4, or in unity, with a core set of features
@fading yoke oh god
why does a thing like that happen? its a good way to get a bad hire and remove good hires
if the programming test isnt relevant for the position, what is even the purpose
digital gate
Sounds like I should take the PUBG test =D
honest cipher
do you Know unreal engine networking?
enough to actually release a public game that uses that networking
digital gate
Yea
fickle hatch
So far when I hired people for anything I would always start with giving them a paid, real world but relatively straightforward task
A small 3D model of some real asset, or some basic program to do something
But that's after I know the person has at least some basic skill, it's mostly to see how it will be working together with that person
fickle hatch
There are a million ways to figure out if the person is probably good or no and I don't particularly have a preference there, but once I have a potential person, they always go through the real test of doing some real world task for the project that can be done by them alone, but leaves some room for error (the way task is completed and the mistakes made is what ultimately decides the outcome)
honest cipher
ive done that to find good freelancers
got a bunch of them, filter for a few candidates, and then hire everyone to do a 1 hour thing
then the best result you tell him to do more
a lot of freelancers do great work, but they take 20 hours to do a concept, and that becomes extremelly expensive
ocean stirrup
Would looking for small startups and projects be good for trying to gain experience as a game designer and writer?
tacit siren
probably not, problem is you need to be more useful then that for a small studio usually
at least enough BP programming to be actually able to prototype game mechanics
and even then, most do have a designer already and do not have room for two
peak wadi
Hey guys!
Any advice on making a portfolio as an UE4 generalist programmer?
- I don't have any released projects yet.
- Working on my own game.
- Can't do a nice-looking shaders or good visuals (I'm not an artist at all)
Just not sure what to put into portfolio?
fickle hatch
Don't be a generalist, be a multi-specialist. Put things you did you understand well into your portfolio
peak wadi
@fickle hatch that's just a words. I mean multi-specialist == generalist
peak wadi
anyway, what specifically to put into a portfolio? A pieces of a code? 😃
hybrid phoenix
If you say you're specialized in a few things, that means people can expect you to really know what you're talking about there
As long as you narrow it down
As for what to put in the portfolio
Little demos
Videos of how your systems work, they don't need to look good, they just need to visually demonstrate what the system's doing
Actual downloadable demo projects
peak wadi
@hybrid phoenix that's a different categories – about how wide your skills vs. about how good your skills
west sonnet
On top of that, work on collaborative projects. Frankly if you’re starting out, you’re not going to be hired on the basis of skill (gotta have it of course). You’re ability to work with a multidiscipline team is typically the deal breaker. Remember, studios will be taking a risk on hiring an inexperienced individual.
peak wadi
@hybrid phoenix Hmm, ok, thank you! So basically it's just "hey, look, those moving cubes are powered by AI which I wrote"?
hybrid phoenix
I feel like proper portfolio gets you interviews, and good communication in those interviews can get you jobs
Yeah, basically
Give different kinds of AI different colors in\
Cat stepped on my keyboard >.>
But yeah, different colors to indicate what's happening and make it less boring
peak wadi
Ok, thank you!
hybrid phoenix
If you're doing, for instance, a combat system, it could be worthwhile to get some asset packs off the marketplace in order to show you can work with animations etc. as well
That you can actually write the entire system
peak wadi
I see...
west sonnet
Or use mixamo
hybrid phoenix
So if you do AI, be sure to also deal with common ways of doing animation
Because that's a necessary part of AI
And often times, even if there's multiple programmers, there won't be a specific person to deal with the animation implementation in the code, so you need to be able to do that
peak wadi
yeah, in my project I spent a lot of time doing all the sync with AI, animations and a skills usage...
hybrid phoenix
(Obviously, you can discuss things like this with potential employers, but keep all of that in mind)
peak wadi
so you need to be able to do that
that's what I was talking about when said "generalist" xD
hybrid phoenix
Avoid saying you're a generalist, because that insinuates you don't have a specialization
If you specialize in AI and are comfortable with the animation implementation et cetera, show that and say you specialize in AI and that you're comfortable with the surrounding systems
peak wadi
well... Currently it's true 😃
west sonnet
They don’t need to know that 😜
hybrid phoenix
Do you have anything you prefer working on over other things? If so, why not work on specializing on that?
And what redacted said
Know your strengths and weaknesses, don't say you can do everything
hybrid phoenix
That's a thing you can safely assume you won't be expected to worry about when hired as a programmer
peak wadi
actually, most of the gamedev programming positions I've seen are about graphics/engine programmers
hybrid phoenix
That's an entirely different thing
That leaves the realm of shaders, too
Are you looking for AAA work?
fickle hatch
The word "generalist" is a dirty word
hybrid phoenix
Or freelance? Or with an indie team?
peak wadi
@hybrid phoenix currently looking for a short-term freelance contracts while working on my own indie game 😃
hybrid phoenix
Right, that definitely won't be graphics/engine programming
Those gigs will require some active work on your part though
People generally won't just come to you for that unless you're well-known by name
peak wadi
Yeah, that's for sure
west sonnet
In that case, make sure you’re able to deliver modular assets. The person who’s giving you the gig most likely isn’t proficient in programming themselves. Know you’re limits, be able to accurately make delivery dates, don’t take a gig for a flat fee.
hybrid phoenix
(Or do take flat fees, or think about what you want to charge very carefully)
peak wadi
well actually I'd prefer a flat rate or at least milestones, but not a hourly rate
harsh brook
graphics engineer means GLSL, HLSL, and CUDA programming usually you can learn some techniques through the custom nodes in the material editor but that wouldn't be a work environment for full engineers
generalist positions are always said to be growing but they tend to not show up very often so its a dangerous game
plucky hatch
Hi guys I want to commercialize my games but an unsure of the first step. My games are still bad but I like to think every time I make one they get better, which is mostly true. How do people go about this? How expensive is it to get a team together? If I go the indie route is it easy to find people like me, who will contribute part of a game (eg art) which is quite amateur and then be rewarded with possible royalties? I'm not sure I want to join a big company until I have a couple more games under my belt at least.
also I don't mind joining other small projects but want to make one or two games of my own as well.
shy depot
Well, decide first of all if you want to make a game your self, or with a team if possible. 😃
plucky hatch
Lol so pretty easy long as ur a millionaire it's np
ionic mica
kindred mason
See
That's definitely a major issue
(Costs article that @flat gazelle linked)
But, if you click on the steam page
You can immediately see one issue that as a gamer, I would be put off... what's up with those graphics
But anyway, even if we stick to whoever their demographic was. 40 months in development as a small-time Indie is crazy
15 months until EA release, that seems pretty on-point though, should have read the fine print.
Although I know it wasn't really the point of the article. It seemed to me that they were just out of scope the whole time.
Had they cut back on stuff and polished, it may have been more successful and made more money.
Eh. Lastly. Not sure how they broke it down and when they added the 3rd team member... but for that small team, the pay is sort of crazy.
Talking $5-$7.5k /month per person
remote saffron
it is mentioned that alternative cost is included
lilac walrus
40 months sounds pretty realistic tbh
low manpower projects tend to take time, because of low parallelism
hybrid phoenix
Had to re-read what Victor said a few times, thought he was talking about in-article graphics for some reason
But damn, yeah, that won't be helping them
Looks like a game I could really enjoy... But the graphics are really off-putting. Not only is the quality not that great, but it's also incredibly incoherent. Rimworld doesn't look great, but it makes its aesthetic work. This doesn't look great, but it looks so messy and weird that it's really off-putting because of it.
Aside from that... If they made enough money to support themselves for forty months, I don't see anything wrong with 40 months dev-time. For me, I'll always be correlating my development timeline (post-EA release) directly to the game's financial success
kindred mason
@hybrid phoenix I looked at it a different way. The longer you are in development, the more expensive it will be.
Depends on how many hours they were putting in everyday
There was a lot of information missing.
But from what I read and what the "complaint" was... it just seemed like bad management of the project
hybrid phoenix
Absolutely, my take on it is that you should keep enough money on the side to be able to fund (part of) the next game's development cycle, and aside from that keep working on your current project until you're either done with it or it's not financially sustainable
But as long as you're turning a profit off your current thing while you keep working on it, and you also have a bit of a buffer built up for the future, I'd say it's fine to keep working on a project
lilac walrus
given that they were able to develop for 40 months, I suspect they did have the funds already set aside for Game 2
olive heath
Hey guys,
I'm looking for some advice. I an interview tomorrow for a job offer to work Unreal Engine. It's a VR project with Dell's VR headset. I'm a unity dev(about a year) with a bit of experience in VR with the HTC Vive. I am also a programmer for over 6 years now, mainly working with C# and web. The thing he is asking me to do is to implement a multiplayer(localhost) system so that two players can interact with one another in VR. I have 3 Udemy courses (VR,multiplayer and UE basics). Now the interviewer is going to ask me to evaluate how long and how much will it take me to make this happen(I am assuming he has a few other contenders for the job). The 3 Udemy courses total length is 101hours. I would like some help understanding how to estimate the time this will take and also determine the charge (considering the fact I'm gonna be paid to learn for some time) and also present it in the best way possible.
tacit siren
Well, bad news is that most people end up hitting a wall when starting with the Unreal Network for about 2 weeks
west sonnet
If you have never done networking, I’m scared for you.
honest cipher
@olive heath if they only need to see each other and basically taht, you can use mordentrals VR Expansion plugin to do most
but if you havent done MP properly
lol
mate you are going to crash so hard
ashen lynx
Considering available info(Dell Headset, test task), the entity hiring you might have less expertise than you do 😉
Worst that happens, you won't be hired.
olive heath
True
So my best chance is to watch 101(worst case) hours of video to get a good grasp of how to do this. Plus time for development of the actual feature, plus testing...
so would 2 months be a good estimation?
@honest cipher probably interact with one other in some way as well
kindred mason
@olive heath 101 hours...
Will turn into 300-500 hours
You won't be getting it all on the first try.
You will be doing a lot of research
It's not impossible though.
I could do it in less than a week
With what you're simply asking for, but I have many years experience in UE4/MP/VR
Same as @honest cipher
So, two months... as a complete newbie to UE4
I don't know, you have some experience, so that helps.
You may be able to pull something out of your ass in 2 months
Will it be performant and bug-free, probably not
If you don't have to do it in C++, don't
That'll shave off some time
olive heath
meaning?
kindred mason
meaning what?
olive heath
I though you can only use C++ in UE
west sonnet
Lol
olive heath
I mean for code
kindred mason
before you do anything else
west sonnet
He’s talking about bp
olive heath
I didn't think something like this is possible without code
kindred mason
Do the Introduction to UE4 BP course
read up docs
go into #multiplayer channel
Read pinned messages
Okay man, says the guy with no ue4 experience?
west sonnet
Open up ue4 first before you ask further
olive heath
will do, thank you for the answers
olive heath
Cool, thanks again and pardon my newbieness
hybrid phoenix
(For ref, the project linked above is Victor's own work)
olive heath
Oh wow, this looks amazing
@kindred mason how much experience do you have with unreal and vr? how long did it take you to develop Contagion?
kindred mason
@olive heath UE4, almost 4 years. VR 2+. Technically, the game was in development before I came onboard. But we had the great idea to redo a lot of game systems, so it was basically redone from scratch. I'll count that as the "true start time", So, somewhere around Nov 2017
then more people got on board as time went on, and even more system got rebuilt and new stuff
But in actuality, the idea and prototype of the game started dev somewhere in 2016
3-4 month crunch to get the demo out
But the game before I got on board and after...are pretty much very different beasts now
olive heath
did you work on this as a fulltime job? or is this a side project?
olive heath
oh
olive heath
what went wrong if I may ask?
kindred mason
Hmm, I haven't really gone too much in depth publicly, and not sure if I really ever will (I actually liked working for them for the most part). But let's just say there were a lot of internal issues in development that never got cleared up. And it started wearing me down after awhile.
But, from what I'm hearing, it's stuff that you'll encounter from time to time
olive heath
I see
kindred mason
I will say this though. @vernal wolf Firefighter Article can definitely be on point
Surprised that's not pinned here
fickle hatch
@kindred mason any organizational issues that you felt were notable?
flat gazelle
Not the forum to air grievances.
kindred mason
Aye. Anyway, it's an amicable divorce ;)
Looking forward to bigger and better things.
hybrid phoenix
Honestly, I've heard of very few large indie projects that don't end in (non-)amicable divorce
kindred mason
Of course there were plugins, you can't sometimes get away with that
I think the only one that we currently only need (off the top of my head) though, would probably be the WWise Plugin
I think the LD likes the Lightmap Utility one as well
Also using VRE
granite brook
Ah well "of course" depends on if you really need anything.
Was just wondering if you extend the Engine through them.
E.g. FunctionLibs
kindred mason
I'd be interested in hearing about any large project that never used a plugin before
Especially a VR one
Like, you need SDKs for a great many things
granite brook
I was only counting function exposing stuff
kindred mason
Ah
granite brook
So Plugins that help when you can't do XY cause it's not exposed
granite brook
WWise is a ThirdParty library. That is really specific to your needs
Compared to maybe a JSON Plugin that exposes stuff that would be available in UE4 already
So basically Plugins that bring NEW stuff from outside into the engine VERSUS Plugins that expose existing stuff from the Engine to Blueprints
But as you already said, you didn't expose anything
So that's great
kindred mason
Had the scope been more streamlined, eventually there would have been some issues I wouldn't have been able to tackle.
But one thing that comes into mind, even with things like a WWise plugin, you can still get issues that need C++
You know how UE4 has a AudioHasFinished delegate?
Well, WWise didn't expose that to BP for the longest time
We had great need of it, and would have converted over to C++ probably after updating to 4.21
But, they literally just exposed that last month. So, there was no need other than update the SDK
I think there are also so many great plugins available now (some not on Marketplace for some reason), that the need to "expose stuff to BP" for xyz is very low
With all that said though... this next project I am starting is starting in C++ for various reasons. I think anyone who's been around long enough and has done both would agree a mix of C++ and BP is great.
granite brook
Correct
We recently moved all of our base gamemode stuff (including GameState, PlayerState, etc.) to C++
To make use of UE4's build in functions that aren't available in Blueprints
While at the same time using Blueprints as children to extend the behavior for specific GameModes
Such as changing how the "Score" win criteria works
kindred mason
Aye, and well, you can't do crap with Gameplay Abilities without C++ anyway
patent mountain
Wow contagion vr is 100% blueprints... that pretty awesome to know
kindred mason
Nothing super impressive truthfully. Plenty of games out that have been made with only BP.
fickle hatch
It just confirms what is easy to see anyway - that BP's are production-ready and a decent tool
slate osprey
Is anyone here in QA? I'm trying to apply for an entry level QA position and I'm writing a cover letter. I'd really appreciate it anyone had the time to look at it. It's about ahalf a page right now.
lilac walrus
my advice would be to make it shorter - it honestly only needs to be a few sentences
if I write a cover letter, I usually literally just introduce myself, explain why I'm interested in the position, and why I feel I'd be a good fit
I'd be surprised if it comes out to more than 100 words
high whale
What’s a good way and tips to get a QA job?
kindred mason
Tell them you don't mind working 80 hour weeks and doing repetitive stuff
lilac walrus
apply, and hope that your application is one of the ones they more or less randomly select, probably xD#
karmic kayak
shy depot
😅😂
dense needle
I've been laid off a lot. This video speaks to me lol. I saw a lot of these people trying to break in. I just shook my head.
idle forge
Noob Question: Is it normal to feel unenthusiastic about playing games but you really enjoy making/working on them. I always have the dilemma about companies hiring wanting people to be passionate about playing games. I feel I've outgrown that craze
dense needle
Playing games and making them are two entirely different things. If you design games, you rarely have time to check out the competition.
round robin
hello every one , so lately i have been doing some jobs interview for a game-play programmer (c++) and all get Decline :p due the fact i don't have enough experience in c++ (and i understand that all i did some freelance arch-viz work nothing interesting) but also on the other hand i have been working on (unity haha sorry) for more then 3 years cuz all the game studio where i live only use it , so my question is what i can do to make my profile more interesting ? do i create some study cases demo (AI, Widget , .... ) ? or do i create one demo with all i can do ? and finally will that make a difference or i really need to work on a real project ? thx and sorry for the long post
dense needle
Two things. Go to GDC, network.
hybrid phoenix
@round robin Based on what you're saying there... You're trying to get hired as gameplay programmer using C++, but you've never actually done anything in C++? Because if that's the case, I'd say the way to address that is simply by getting work done in C++ on your own time; E.g. a game created in UE4 using C++.
The format in which you create things isn't all that important, but it's important that your employer has a way of seeing that you're actually competent using C++
round robin
@hybrid phoenix thx for the replay , yes exactly as you said and i want to fix that , so i should take a certain subject and create a demo for (example AI ) , create my own demo game that's great but i don't want to end up with a cheesy looking game , thx a lot for the advice
hybrid phoenix
As long as it shows that you're capable of learning and using C++, no-one cares if it looks cheesy
You're applying for gameplaying programming, not a design or artistic position
idle forge
@dense needle thats actually great to hear. For the past 4 years I don’t seem to have to patience to sit through a game . But I’ve gotten so pulled into learning all the different areas of computer graphics and figuring out mechanics. Thanks
dense needle
If you have decent experience, plus coders are rare vs artists. You have value. Attending a place like GDC could be the best move.
fading yoke
I used to think I had decent experience. Thousands of rejected job applications without an interview made sure to fix that for me.
dense needle
4 years coding experience is decent. All depends what that experienced was used on.
lilac walrus
Rejected applications with experience, without an interview tells me there was something probably wrong with the application itself
fickle hatch
There is also a problem of HR sorting you
If you don't have some stupid keywords on your application, you might get sorted into the bulk pile, doesn't matter the actual substance - at companies where HR is kinda shitty
Companies which are big and popular and get thousands of applications
lilac walrus
true enough, but if you have relevant experience, those keywords probably would be appearing on your CV already, especially as something like a programmer
fickle hatch
Ideally you would apply informally to people who will be the ones dealing with you directly
And they would get your application into the good pile
lilac walrus
nice in theory, but difficult to do before you get that foot through the door, hehe
lilac walrus
I think community orientated stuff is usually a good bet, helps you get on the right people's radar
make cool shit, share cool shit, talk to people about said cool shit
kindred mason
It's not what you know most of the time, it's who you know 😃
lilac walrus
people who have stuff they can show tend to be the ones that are remembered
kindred mason
But, get good enough and you can turn that around
fading yoke
I feel like I live in a different world from you people. Here's what I get in terms of feedback for my job applications:
And then there's the whole question of what counts as "legit" experience
kindred mason
What job position was that?
Sounds like you tried for some senior position there
mid/senior
lilac walrus
sounds very senior, but also not the kind of response I'm used to seeing (the quotation is weirdly informal)
kindred mason
@lilac walrus it's because it's automated
Just some standard formatting (terrible at that)
Otherwise, if not. That HR person, literally just quoting what head honcho said
lilac walrus
well, I would have assumed that if the person responsible knew that this was feedback for the applicant, it would have been filled in a lot more professionally
either that, or the HR person should be paraphrasing
kindred mason
Hmm, I've seen weird replies, even with acceptance (and wanting to move on to the next step)
Even from big companies
plucky hatch
I personnally don't mind. I much prefer authenticity.
kindred mason
But yeah, I love the straight truth like that.
plucky hatch
When you are applying for jobs, you are dealing with real people who will judge you no matter what.
@fading yoke What did you apply for? I wish you the best of luck.
ashen lynx
@fading yoke What position was that for? Seeing full life cycle across multiple projects in gamedev does hint that applicant must have a gray beard meters long.
flat gazelle
Pfft, I've seen 12ish full cycles and my beard is as patchy as a teenager.... Uncool
dense needle
You'd be amazed how much further you can get in the job process by simply meeting them in person.
fading yoke
I remember when I went in person to the local supermarket when I got out of college in 2010. Told me to apply online. Went back again a week later and they said no.
dense needle
That would have been after the 2008 crash. Worst time to find work.
plucky hatch
while I figure out some packaging issues with my game I think I'd might as well ask a question that's been bugging me
I want to start making money with my gamedev, want to turn it into my career, but I want to stay open-source
what are some ways I could approach that?
fickle hatch
Sell components of your game and assets on UE4 marketplace
Do a limited license that allows people to contribute to parts of the game
plucky hatch
I wouldn't know of any licenses like that
also, I'm only 16, and I definitely don't have the resources to really protect myself in that context
Just wanna be able to make money from doing what I love
finite mulch
Then marketplace stuff
plucky hatch
Would a Patreon work as well?
plucky hatch
I definitely don't expect to beat the threshold for the UE4 royalty.
my game's pretty niche
I was thinking of selling my terminal emulator widget on the marketplace but I'd need to rewrite it a lot to untie it from the rest of my game's code
finite mulch
Always worth a try
plucky hatch
I do have github for education so... can always create a separate private repo for it
finite mulch
Being a student ftw
plucky hatch
I think the patreon would work too because I like to make gamedev videos and I do monthly coding streams for my game
can't put those on the ue4 marketplace lol
finite mulch
Would it attract ppl though
west sonnet
Wouldn’t recommend it. You’d have unreasonable obligations to a subscription based platform. Not many would be interested in paying to watch the process regardless
plucky hatch
Yeah, true.
I mean, I'd do it in a way where you only have to pay if you want to see my videos earlier on, I guess
plucky hatch
yeah, they're pretty niche, my dev-related videos get a lot less views than things like official soundtrack videos
I love makin' them though
west sonnet
By all means create a dev blog. It’s a good way to improve yourself
But for monetization? Absolutely not
plucky hatch
I do want to find a way to actually sell my game but keep it open-source. My biggest fear is that people can very easily compile it and get the game without paying, and I don't have the legal power to protect myself against that even if my code's license specifically states "you can't do that."
finite mulch
Why put it open source then
west sonnet
That goes against the concept of open source
plucky hatch
or, rather, compiling and distributing for free
that too.
I mean, I'm okay with close-sourcing tbh
finite mulch
Then just do that
plucky hatch
but, I am into free software so.... yeah
Maybe I could have certain components open-source
fickle hatch
Sell it close sourced first, open source it after it does well or it doesn't do well
fading yoke
I use Patreon and make a few bucks per month from people who like my game jam stuff and want to support my projects: https://www.patreon.com/jfaw
finite mulch
Nice
plucky hatch
Yeah, having the patreon for people who want to support me as a developer would be nice
not supporting the game itself
west sonnet
People want products though 😜
plucky hatch
Yeah, which is why I'd need to think of some perks I guess
How hard is it to get something onto the UE4 marketplace?
plucky hatch
I know apparently terminal emulators for UMG are in somewhat high demand
and mine works pretty well tbh
Thinking of putting it up on there.
finite mulch
Definitely do
If it's good and has some visibility you can easily make a few hundred bucks a month
plucky hatch
Only thing that sucks about it is it doesn't do ANSI, but I could probably code it to understand at least some ANSI
It has its own codes for things like text color, bold, etc
west sonnet
Certainly do. Just consider what the customer wants. Make it modular, optimize, blah blah blah
plucky hatch
what I could do is I could open-source the base terminal emulator (no ANSI etc)
and put the full thing + code up on ue4 marketplace and in my game
that way you pay for the full features but you can also use the base code for free and implement what you want
finite mulch
That's an idea
plucky hatch
so you basically pay for me implementing a lot of stuff for you
Could also sell my window manager. It isn't used in my game anymore but it worked really well.
plucky hatch
yeah, joys of coding a hacking game in UE4 where the in-game OS is a linux distro.
I also implemented a small subset of a bash lexer
by small, I mean VERY small
it doesn't do functions, variables, etc
it'll do pipes, but it won't do things like commandOne & commandTwo
finite mulch
Does it have autocompletion?
plucky hatch
but it'll do commandOne | commandTwo, command > file.txt, command >> file.txt, etc
if you give it a "home" path, it'll parse command ~/some/file.txt as <your home>/some/file.txt
Sadly no autocompletion, not supported by my terminal
finite mulch
plucky hatch
I wouldn't know how to implement that
I want to, because it'd be very handy
just not sure how
finite mulch
Anyway it's getting a bit off topic here 😄
That definitely seems like a good product
If it has a nice interface and a nice documentation, it could sell really well
plucky hatch
I'll think about it.
I want to come up with a good "business" model so I can turn this into a career but also stay relatively in the open-source world
I love the idea of people using my code in their games, it feels really flattering tbh
finite mulch
Making a living on marketplace assets seems risky though
west sonnet
They’re young. One can’t get experience without doing eh? Asset market place is a good start.
plucky hatch
I don't expect to turn the marketplace into a career at all
just want to be able to make my own money that I can put toward my career
like being able to build a better gamedev workstation (since mine's slowly becoming obsolete, still on DDR3 RAM)
and being able to pay artists etc to help out with things that I'm horrid at
plucky hatch
well, it's sorta on its way out
even worse I'm still runnin' on 8GB
worked fine till I started using UE4
plucky hatch
I know
I wanna build a workstation like the one I get to use in my college course
(taking a dual credit gamedev course)
plucky hatch
Yeah, my professor says it'd be a very great idea for me to start a gamedev studio in town.
That's honestly one of my dreams.
fickle hatch
Where is the said town?
plucky hatch
It's a small town in Ontario, Canada
An hour's drive from Ottawa
I could definitely see why it'd be a very good idea to start a gamedev studio here
because, if it gets popular enough...
Future students at that college could do a placement at my company.
and that feels just... so mindblowing to think about
anyway, thanks for the advice guys :D
Definitely a lot to think about.
finite mulch
Good luck!
hushed heath
So I'm 16 right now and I want to get a head start in learning. What are things I need to learn, like marketing, producing, art, etc.?
west sonnet
Long term, it depends on what you'd like to specialize in. You do need to have a basic understanding of the process to making a game or other media production. Generalize skill is more to facilitate a more streamline collaborative environment however.
fickle hatch
@hushed heath do you play any games you like a lot? Join some modding efforts for your favorite game
plucky hatch
hi can someone help me?
i would like to make a career
but its more personal
i want a pirate game online with steam, only 1 problem
how can i make my ship go floating and stuf? 😮
west sonnet
please don't troll on this channel
daring willow
Hi guys, i have been learning a bit but there is something that i dont like about my scenes, i mean, i love them but i feel like i can improve more xd
The thing is that there are some stuff that i need that i cant find
What should i do?
steel creek
Is there an actual career question? improve "scenes" feels more like you want the graphics channel
harsh brook
How long after a phone interview do you guys start worrying about your chances?
west sonnet
2 weeks
harsh brook
good to know thanks
lilac walrus
generally speaking you should hear back quite quickly after a phone interview, but there's all sorts of stuff that might be going on in the background; someone who couldn't interview that week, decision makers on holiday or off sick etc
so yeah, two weeks isn't a bad time to wait
harsh brook
It is difficult but I think I should just bide my time don't want to kill my chances
how big of a deal is not living in the area currently? It seemed to be the only problem even though I informed the interviewers I was willing to move myself, as the position is to low for a move package
west sonnet
Not very unless it's out of country. Even then, remote working is doable.
harsh brook
Hard to find jr positions is my only problem :/ non-jr positions want a AAA game on my resume pretty consistent problem I'v faced I apply to them still though
digital gate
Literally gotta just keep at it.
I'm kinda in your boat, but I think I've got something now. Just took me a while to get it.
It could technically still slip away, but I doubt that it will.
harsh brook
I hope I'm in the same spot been trying for almost a year now haha
digital gate
what's your portfolio like?
harsh brook
I need to remake it tbh most of my experience is coding but all Iv been able to show is houdini projects
takes a bit to redo though and my current job is grinding me up pretty hard, its in unreal but its not games related unfortunately
digital gate
anything using unreal tech is probably worth something
harsh brook
thats been my viewpoint just don't want to get pidgeonholed and not enter games cause thats where I want to be
This helped ease my stress though thanks guys guess I just need to remember to always look on the bright side of life
lilac walrus
most companies that want to hire you will offer some kind of relocation - take it as a bad sign (in terms of them being a quality employer) if they don't
harsh brook
Every AAA company I'v interviewed for has stated they wouldn't pay for it one B company said they included it. I've accepted it at this point for the experience just gotta roll with the punches for now until I have a decent resume unfortunately
I respect your input Amber, I know you have a good deal of experience in the industry, this has just been my experience the past 9ish months
mighty ocean
I would actually be wary of a company that will pay to relocate unless you are like already a well established industry expert or something. if they are paying to relocate non-senior people to me that screams "we drive away all our lower level people" either with bad management or bad workloads or uninteresting projects. There are of course exceptions, but that's just my take on it.
lethal pelican
how screwed am I at 30 to jump into digital art and 3d animation, geared for game dev
time feels so little after work 😮
starting to learn drawing fundamentals first
have some background in 3d modelling
flat gazelle
Not at all
Just do it
If it's something you really want to do, age is not a problem any more.
The industry is growing up 😃
west sonnet
So long as you understand what you’re getting into.
plucky hatch
@lethal pelican
Drawing is great.
But just grab cool concep art and build a 3d portfolio. learn modeling, texturing, lighting, ue4 materials, etc.
You ll get a job that way
and then after you can go back to drawing
unless you want to become anm 3d animator?
honest cipher
@harsh brook when i was answering to offers in September, i had 8 different studios at once
doing interviews with everyone at once
and going up stages on everyone at once
even after receiving a final offer i waited a bit to see the answers of others
doing that netted me twice the salary, becouse i just got the best offer of all the concurrent ones
harsh brook
That’s some good advice guess I should keep applying anyways then
honest cipher
just apply to literally everyone
keepin a bunch of interviews going at the same time is good
if you dont pass, you are just filtering, maybe you do pass some of them
and if you pass everything (like i did), you take the best offers
digital gate
I applied to the place I ended up going whilst applying to everything in a list.
narrow vigil
What are your odds of getting a job without a college degree if you have good examples of your code. If you can write good code would you have a chance of getting in somewhere, or will they not even look at you if you don't have a degree?
kindred mason
Just as good as someone with a degree without a decent portfolio @narrow vigil
Usually you would have a portfolio from school regardless
So it's the quality that's going to count
fickle hatch
A degree helps on many levels that don't have directly to do with the job itself, but with formal junk. If you can skip over that stuff (depends on how mean/dumb the HR is), then it's only about the quality of your portfolio/work already done
kindred mason
If A has no education but 2+ years practical experience vs B who has GameDev degree with only school portfolio. A has a better chance
But of course a degree is always nice and many do require it
So, you will be looking for entry level jobs or Indies that don't care
fickle hatch
Without a degree you will need to focus more on trying to talk directly to people who need your work, not with the layer inbetween you and them
Indies don't have that inbetween HR layer yeah
If you get to masters degree level, it also helps with a bunch of random non-work-related tasks like immigration
west sonnet
To be frank, degree is among the last thing that’s looked at in an application. Have example of your work and record of your work experience. A degree is good for immigrants however. Keep in mind a lot of country have a maximum wage cap and other bs for migrants.
fickle hatch
It's too tempting to quickly sort applications into three piles based on education level
west sonnet
Add a quick look/preview on your homepage. Employers want to view your stuff as quickly as possible
plucky hatch
Brilliant! Thx
I'll add a nice banner on top ''Portfolio"
hopefully wixsite won't F me over
west sonnet
both
Condense it for the homepage, if needed. It's the page that provides first impression.
plucky hatch
Noted
fickle hatch
You never shown us this portfolio before?
If not, I swear I saw someone with exact same template
plucky hatch
I did, usually when someone asks for it
lol
It's dusty
It's always fun to see the portfolio of our peers. 👍
Some people are so good at creating nice looking websites/documents with fancy icons, etc.
fickle hatch
Oh yes
I double checked it
You were the one asking to improve portfolio here like a month ago
And you fixed the documentations & illustrations page because the images were unreadable 😄
fickle hatch
Memory is one of reasons why I'm an engineer 😄
native hinge
Currently in 3rd year as a programmer for video games, don't have any good portfolio work yet wondering if this is the case for a fair amount of people or if I need to put in the extra before I graduate?
flat gazelle
Put in the extra work. A graduate who just did what he was told won't get a job in this industry.
lilac walrus
@native hinge - I would genuinely recommend taking a year after graduation to work on personal projects
take enough work to sustain you and use the rest of your time to build a couple of big code projects
if you can say, get 20 hours a week part time and scrap by, that gives you at least another 20 to do personal stuff
obviously it's not always possible to live on just 20 hours work a week, but do what you can
native hinge
Thanks for the responses!
The year after graduation doesn't sound easy, but I started programming 2 and a half years ago so I don't have a lot of work to back me up
I can see why the year could be necessary I currently don't have anywhere near enough time to make side projects
high ocean
I have a rather odd question about careers. I'm about to get a local job as a truck driver. The pay is pretty decent and i get loads of benefits + paid time off. My original plan was, take the truck driving job for a few years while i work on my skills to eventually join the industry. But now i'm wondering, would it be worth it?
spice dagger
It really depends on your situation. No one else but you can know exactly what circumstances your in right now. If you feel you need to take on a job on the side to be able to feed your ability to work on your skills then for sure go for it.
These things all take time.
high ocean
It's not the time that i'm concerned about. Having a decent job capable of supporting me while i work on my skills is what i'm going for. The question i want to know is. If i have a job now that supports me... would it be worth leaving that job once i have the skills necessary to join the industry.
west sonnet
That unfortunately is a question you’ll have to answer. Like any cross road in life, know the consequences of either.
ashen lynx
@high ocean It would be worth considering leaving only after you've applied and received an offer, that suits you more than your present job. Definitely not earlier.
harsh brook
@native hinge I would also say look around for jobs/internships while you're in school. Real work experience has aided me more then schools imo. Doesn't have to be strictly games related either with programming as a good deal of programming in companies also involves mundane stuff like server operations
native hinge
@harsh brook Thanks for the wise words, this is something I'll definitely have to think about putting time into!
plucky hatch
@high ocean
To work in the video games industry has pros and cons. And the situation is different from one studio to another, from one project to another. Team size, etc. Hard to say if it would be beneficial to you.
@spice dagger said it very well. you know more than us what it could be worth to leave your current stable job.
if it pays well, Id say maybe it isnt worth it.
spice dagger
@plucky hatch @high ocean If you currently have a job i would still hang onto it until you can find sufficient work in your skilled field that can support you.
Just dont burn your bridges if you do leave. Always have a backup plan incase things go south.
For example, years ago, before i got into this industry i was a certified Electrician, incase Software Engineering didnt work out, i was always guaranteed a stable job in my Trade.
I havent worked as an Electrician for years. But having that safety net came in handy in the early days.
Set yourself up for success, dont risk for failure.
If you fail to plan you plan to fail.
Etc etc 😃
high ocean
Alright so it sound like it'd be worth it to try, but keep the truck driving open just in case.
mighty ocean
nah screw that. My last job I just didn't go in one day. Looked at my bank account and it said $10 so I decided to start a video game company - and now I make the princely sum of $50/mo 😉
west sonnet
Are you missing a few 0s in there? 😜
mighty ocean
nope lol
kindred mason
Heh, when people contact you for work (they find you on UE4 forums) and they tell you UE4 sucks and if I you want to work on Unigine or Armory 3D instead...
Makes you wonder why they bothered
plucky hatch
They arent wrong. Each engine has pros and cons. Depends on what you are looking for.
It still is funny that they reached out to you to tell you about how they dislike UE4...👀
fickle hatch
Unigine guys have been trying to get us to use their engine
But it doesn’t do things we need
kindred mason
@fickle hatch Meh, doesn't look all that impressive
and those guys look way too familiar
lilac walrus
Unigine has basically no advantages
Not for games anyway
Maybe some visualisation application
The distributed renderer is kinda neat
fickle hatch
Unigine has 64-bit precision coordinate system
That was our main draw to it
And built-in multispectral rendering
Those are the pros, the cons are horrible early-2000's style API, no source code to the engine, very rigid material system
spice dagger
Whats the licensing like? Ive always wondered.
fickle hatch
You contact them for a quote
They still email us once in a while "please consider using our engine", so I imagine it's "flexible"
spice dagger
Im surprised they havent tried pushing it to be more user friendly. It does have a nice looking renderer
fickle hatch
I remember this engine back when it was just 1 guys personal project
I haven't actually seen anything notable use it after that, but if I'm not mistaken, unigine is used in at least some Russian military simulations
I guess another pro is that unlike unreal engine, you can license unigine for use with nuclear weaponry and other sort of advanced weapon systems
😄
spice dagger
Wasnt there some Ship strategy game built with it? I cant remember, its really not notable as a games engine... oddly enough
fickle hatch
Oil Rush? It was developed by them to show off the engine
spice dagger
Oh really haha, had no idea
fickle hatch
There are other games, but all of their websites are down
So I dunno what they are
lol
karmic kayak
tbh Unigine wasn't used in any known game for a reason. It has the worst tools around.
at least it had when we had an eval back in the v1 days
honest cipher
yup
i remember it being like Ogre, but good
so basically a set of rendering libraries and nothing much more
- a basic editor
remote saffron
but Ogre was actually used for games
honest cipher
becouse it was free
and i think it was basically the only "semi usable" open source game engine
unigine wasnt cheap at all, so people just went "migh as weel just license unreal engine instead"
plucky hatch
That moment when you are trying to fill an online application for a job and the website allows you to enter multiple jobs, but only 2 degrees when you have more...
😡
flat gazelle
Subtle 😉
ashen lynx
I once had a handwritten form to fill, that required you to enter all employments for past 5 years and had like 15 lines. Each employment term for me was 4 to 6 weeks. I still remember that FML feeling.
fickle hatch
I had similar feeling with immigration
"List all countries you have visited in past 5 years"
west sonnet
What was the grand total
ashen lynx
Oh yeah, been through that too.
fickle hatch
It was closer to 20 than to 10
Was annoying to go through passport and figure out which countries each stamp or visa belonged to
ashen lynx
Back in the day when e-forms were not a thing you could always slap see attached all across the field.
fickle hatch
I was applying for some apple stuff some time ago
And their e-form required 10 digits for a Czech phone number
Even though we only had 9 digits
And it refused to let me get past that point because there's no legal way in which I could append an extra digit durr
delicate apex
you could add country code, which adds 1-2 digits