When someone is looking for a new job, that person doesnt have time to do tests for 20 studios
#career-chat
plucky hatch
fickle hatch
@plucky hearth this is just my personal silly opinion, but I would ask them to cooperate with me so we can figure out not only if I have the right skills, but also if they are any good at communicating what they want and we won't have a breakdown of understanding out of nowhere. The other side doesn't need to do much, simply show me how they react to updates and how they can convey what it is they want.
Like
If I'm doing something, I expect to check in with someone at least once a week if not more often, I'm used to fluid work
I never did one-off comissions myself, but when I comission people, generally I will comission a test first
This test will be a real something we need done, but with low levels of responsibility (if they make it wonky, it'll be fast to fix it up)
If they do well, I can comission them for something bigger
plucky hearth
That seems pretty sensible
steel creek
I'll go you boys one better
How do you show a portfolio to a studio when all your other Studio work is under contract and cannot be shown?
remote saffron
yeah ,and also, maybe you don't have the "time" to prove that you can do the job, but most company don't have the time/money to hire everyone and tbh if they hire you just to fire you a month later that would be also pretty meh
fickle hatch
@steel creek that is a super annoying thing, I wrote up a formal written permission to my artist so he could publish specific models he did for us in his portfolio
He asked for it and I think that it's a very reasonable request
I think the company should permit artist to release a representative example of his work if he asks for it
steel creek
And for code?
I have never been able to show a single piece of code in 15 years
Nickelodeon dont want WB seeing their shit. WB dont want Disney seeing their shit. Disney dont want DW seeing their shit, and on and on and on
I cant even give out UX snaps.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
fickle hatch
@steel creek Yeah, I'm afraid code is almost entirely out of reach...
For code, our programmer guy has a side project and he uses stuff we taught him in that side project. So that will go into his portfolio, but not the code he wrote for us...
steel creek
I mean, I guess I have been lucky in that this industry is not super huge in terms of TDs. Everyone more or less knows everyone and what they are capable of -- also helps when I am walking into places where tons of ex-employees know me as well. But that is 100% not the normal, and i have never figured out a good system/work around for engineers on their exit(s)
fickle hatch
Yeah, neither the path I followed nor that are the common experience
Like
My previous workplace, the company just died and disowned all of its IP
Because the company didn't care to be legally strict, I kept much of the documentation that I designed and wrote
I have all the examples of what we did that are directly attributable to me
And the company owes me a ton of money too
steel creek
:\
plucky hatch
@fickle hatch The work I did for Virtuos Ltd I cannot show anyone, neither work for the past 4 companies and this is really annoying. Can't take credit for what you've accomplished because "it's their property", this is sad.
vale pivot
As much as I'd like to get into proper game development and my 'passion' is in artistic design and so on, my skills are in mechanical drafting.
I am kind of nervious that, even if I do find one way or another to develop a tech demo/prototype for a game, that I wont even get a chance for any game development company to even listen to me.
Curious if there's any way for me to at least appear more qualified.
fickle hatch
@vale pivot Haha, those skills would be relevant to my project
vale pivot
@fickle hatch You mean mechanical drafting? Or more on the artistic stuff? Like writing, character concepts and so forth?
fickle hatch
Working with blueprints/schematics and engineering documentation combined with any of the videogame dev skills
And making new drawings too!
Mechanical, electric, architectural
vale pivot
If we are talking about UE4 Blueprints then I have a very surface level understanding of it and wouldn't be able to do any sort of programing.
Though Engineering documentation, I dont really see how that would benefit video games. You technically dont really have to go in depth in the mechanics, just a surface level understanding is good unless you're making some sort of simulation.
fickle hatch
No, we are talking the actual blueprints that you do with drafting tools 😄
We're doing an engineering simulation game, so there's a ton of that kinda work involved in it
vale pivot
Hah
All of that is done with computer ;3
Stuff like Autodesk Inventor and so forth.
Oh?
fickle hatch
An engineering subway train simulator. With an industrial version, but also a game version. Simulates some specific subway trains and infrastructure them down to each component
All electric components, relays and so on. Pneumatics, mechanics etc.
vale pivot
Sounds very involved
fickle hatch
Just a full recreation so you can mess around with them in any way desired. It's not so much a simulator to teach you how to operate it normally, but more of a simulator where you cause all sorts of failures and learn how to think creatively
vale pivot
Ahhhhhhh
fickle hatch
Yah! It's not a very complex project, but it has a lot of pieces and bits. I draw a lot of engineering drawings as we reverse engineer the trains we're simulating
Plus we also work with original drawings that we can get
fickle hatch
The game is pretty much fun because of two things - intricate rich behavior of the trains & multiplayer
Our two core ideas
vale pivot
Ohgosh
I can see that being a 1 v 1 situation.
A sabatour and someone trying to fix the train.
fickle hatch
But that's offtopic now, if you're interested or something, you can poke me in lounge or something
Point is, having two specialties is very valuable and we would love to have more people who can do both engineering and art etc
vale pivot
Well, I have lots of miscellaneous specialties. Very miscellanious...
fickle hatch
But focus on getting good at some one thing first so you would have skills you could use for a job if you needed to, I think
vale pivot
I'll certainly keep that in mind. Thankfully I wont need to find a job unless something terrible happens at my current place of work.
plucky hatch
How do you guys deal with NDAs in the industry and the fact that your employer might own everything you do, including what you do during your spare time?
And the fact that some contract prevent you from working during the next year after quitting that company.
Non-solicitation, non competition clauses, etc
cobalt inlet
if i make a map in unity and then export it to unreal and make over 100k do i have to pay unity?
flat gazelle
What do you mean deal? It's how it works. If you don't agree, don't sign.
plucky hatch
Right and end up with no job? Brilliant
@cobalt inlet
You could just keep your mouth shut in such case and avoid a lot of trouble.
But this is interesting lol. How would you use Unity to make a map for Unreal?
pro builder?
cobalt inlet
well you can export as raw heightmap then convert it
flat gazelle
Those are the options. If they want you enough they'll alter the contract. Not ndas though.
plucky hatch
@cobalt inlet
You can just claim you used Blender for everything 3D related.
cobalt inlet
ok
digital gate
I flat out don't sign anything with a noncompete that isn't very specific and somewhat short - not that I've had a ton of offerings
plucky hatch
Technically, it would be possible let's say... to use Hammer (Source) as a Level Editor, bring that map to Blender, clean it up and then use it in Unity.
Then claim it was all done in Blender
flat gazelle
Non competes are pretty standard and are rarely triggered
fickle hatch
@plucky hatch you can deal with it by joining a smaller company
That assumes that you have a pool to choose from, of course
plucky hatch
I personally solved it by working in a different industry.
But i got friends who are paid high salary and are kind of stuck in those legal issues.
So they are kind of stuck working for a AAA company, unable to make their own games on the side to eventually make their own company
flat gazelle
Yep that's how it works. You are not allowed to work on things you could potentially use to compete with the people who pay your salary.
Non compete is to avoid stuff like the leads take a whole team away and start a competitor.cough codemasters and playground cough
plucky hatch
Pubg / Fortnite
But yeah, I get the point
But if all you make is FPS games, you'll probably make a FPS game during your spare time
So a non compete clause is kind of retarded
At this point, I just see those clauses as a way for companies to prevents individuals from being able to start their own companies and make their own games
Very few people can afford to stop working for a full year
You know, like Cliffy B ''retired'' and came back with Boss Key
ashen lynx
Was there any single documented case where NCC was actually enforced ?
It is exceptionally hard to base claims around that one, unless one directly and intentionally crossed the other entity.
plucky hatch
What is NCC?
spice dagger
Non Compete Clause
plucky hatch
I can confirm that I've once been layed off, politely, because i supposedly tried to solicitate employees of my previous employer.
When I got hired, I had 3 months to become permanent. They layed be off at the end of the second month.
And the reason why they layed me off had nothing to do with the real reason why they actually layed me off.
They essentially made up a story and just claimed I wasn't meeting their professional standard when the day before that my lead designer & my lead artist told me that I had done an incredible job and that they were going to use my work as a template for future maps. They were shocked the next day to learn that I got layed off for WTF? ...
And since this is a very small industry, I'm 110% sure that I got blacklisted after that among HR people around my area.
Not everywhere, but in some of the big studios.
I've seen people get literally fired just because the producer didn't like their face
fickle hatch
That is pretty scummy, I am sorry @plucky hatch
fickle hatch
Hehe
flat gazelle
@ashen lynx some of the people we hired this year got the NCC triggered, but they didn't mind much as it just meant they had to sit at home with full pay for six months.
I have up to 12 months NCC in my contract but again it's fully paid (including bonuses due) do I'm not super worried about it.
remote saffron
I would not build my future on NCC-s not being tirggerred anytime
if the contract says you can't work in the same field for x time after you leave that workplace, well no way you should sign that
if it is payed time that's a slightly different thing, but still can be bad 🤔
about company owning everything you do: that is stupid as hell, but usually is only there so you don't do extra shady stuff. you can always negotiate about that part
I always managed to get approval to my own projects in previous workplaces
best is when you manage to sign a contract which says that the company accepts that your services are not exclusive to them 😄
plucky hatch
lol
honest cipher
can't work in the same field for x time after you leave that workplace this is illegal in the EU
and only legal in some special states in the USA
NCC is fine, as long as you are getting a salary
remote saffron
I'm not sure about that, friend of my just decided not to sign a contract because of that in UK a few month ago
in finance 🤷
honest cipher
i had to get the contract with PUBG ammended
becouse it was in clear violation since the start
remote saffron
about this?
honest cipher
it had a section that said " the employee can not have stake nor have owned a similar company"
i have the company wich is still giving me sales money from DWVR
remote saffron
oh I see
ashen lynx
Can't work in the same field I have never seen NCC, that was worded in a way to mean that, as applicable, if you are just a contractor. Most stop you from starting your own entity that would enter in a direct competition.
As for company owning the work you do, this is kinda the part of doing contract work. That is perfectly fine.
NDAs, however, and similar non-disclosure clauses in the contract, are a bit of an issue.
remote saffron
we are talking about the company owning the work you do any time, even outside of work hours and not for the company
ashen lynx
Not sure about your law, but here such claims would be declared null and void on first hearing.
How this part is worded in the contract?
remote saffron
I have never had a contract like that, but e.g. google has/had it?
So, under California law, which is probably the most liberal in the United States coving IP, you are prescribed from competing with your employer even on your own time or on your own equipment. This is reinforced in industry employment agreements, including Google's (my employer)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1969979
they basically say that anything computer science related is competing with google directly 🤷
Hacker News
@wicked hawk can tell more about that as he was intern there
ashen lynx
they basically say that anything computer science related is competing with google directly Unless there was a few cases with decisions against former employees, this should be regarded as rumors. It is pretty clear, that if you are contracted to develop a a product, and decide to surf on a wave of experience, you have received while doing so and make your own product in the same category, the employer wants to stop that. And to me it looks fair. Proving fact of direct competition, however, is much more challenging than it sounds and is definitely should not be taken as anything computer science related is competing with google directly.
If for some reason your contract is laid down in a such way, that employer claims IP for any work you do during duration of contract, and you know that this is enforceable, where you are currently registered, and it is a concern for you, I'd suggest not to sign it.
fickle hatch
But that's not possible though
Not for writing a book and arguably not for writing code
Your authorship rights are non-transferrable without an explicit agreement (and in some jurisdictions, it's not transferrable period)
honest cipher
ask that to Carmack
fickle hatch
It would have to be some other mechanism, like the company retains rights to use the code and texts you wrote while being employed there
But not just take it and use it
In reality there is probably no grounds for that at all, not even some sort of an "automatic licensing" mechanism and the companies are just going to blacklist you from being hired at their competitors if you make use of your copyrights on the work you do in your spare time regardless of legality
😦
US is messed up, some countries make it much simpler and equate writing code to writing any text and simplify the copyright questions to "to whom the work can be traced". The proof is same as for text - early drafts (for the computer code this become snapshots from the version control). Makes it easier to figure things out and it's how we handle IP stuff with people doing work for us
The contract covers all assets people willingly submit to a specific version control system, so we have a record of who commited what, when, and under what contract
It doesn't seem like there's any one right answer
lilac walrus
My contract at Microsoft had a clause that said they owned anything you made in your spare time, but I had that removed from the contract - notably it was a useless clause anyway because legally they can't
outside of that, how would you ever enforce it anyway?
solemn lantern
with massive legal fees where even if you won the case you would be bankrupt from all the law fees?
companys usualy do that to people
even if they lose you'll never be able to repay the massive debts you owe to lawyers
lilac walrus
they'd never be able to take you to court in the first place
also, if they did, the potential publicity fallout of having dodgy clauses in your contract would be pretty hefty
solemn lantern
it never stopped them from putting it in the contract in the first place tho
but in general i would never really trust my employer if i saw something like that in the contract
fickle hatch
@lilac walrus if I wanted to enforce it, I would coax people to use the one proprietary framework specific to the company and make them submit their spare time projects into the company version control or something 😄
And then well paid lawyers can figure out the rest, there will be enough proof to show that you were doing those projects for the company if they make use of company code and company resources
But that assumes that programmers would be stupid enough to take such obvious bait
lilac walrus
I doubt anyone would use proprietary frameworks and company version control for their own stuff
that's just madness
fickle hatch
@lilac walrus if the company I worked at did that, it'd be strong incentive to bail haha
We had a potential investor who suggested (for free) to allocate us extra programmers from his team
So they would "fix up" the code and make it better
We immediately packed up things and ran away fast
plucky hatch
Those who are indie devs, have a day job and a family. How do you deal with your time to make indie games? How do.you find time? Don't you feel guilty of not spending more time with your family?
neat jackal
For me, balancing time is quite easy. I've got an office to go to, so just like any other job I can go to the office to work all day. Makes things easier time-wise, just use "normal" office hours, and treat it like any other job.
How to balance it with a second job though depends on the second job/the hours you make there @plucky hatch
fickle hatch
Spend more time with family
hybrid phoenix
The gist of it is proper planning
So you don't work a hundred hours because you're stressed - it'll only get worse
You need to schedule days off, working hours and free time
neat jackal
It also depends I guess on if you're trying to make indie games next to a 9-5 job 5 days a week, or if you only work somewhere parttime. I currently do indie dev/freelance work fulltime so it makes sense to spend normal office hours on it. If I was doing some other job 3 days a week, I'd probably do this 2 days a week. Weekends/evenings are nice extras if you don't have anything else planned, but shouldn't be your main workhours on a set schedule imo. If you work on it in that time, you should see it more as a hobby, so spend the time on it that you would spend on any other hobby, and plan it like any other hobby, instead of making that time too a regular work hour.
hybrid phoenix
^
fickle hatch
Get used to doing at least one little thing each day on the game project, even if it's something tiny
neat jackal
^ literally the opposite of what I just said. In theory it's a good idea, but in practice it'll only get you more stressed and overworked. If you're already working a 9-5, 5 days a week, fulltime job it's better to not force yourself to work on what is essentially a hobby every day. Just plan it in when you have the time (like with any other hobby), and see it as a hobby until you're actually making money from game development.
fickle hatch
Different things work for different people!
hybrid phoenix
If you do take days off, they don't have to be weekend days necessarily, but schedule them beforehand
Otherwise you'll lose track of your days off and work too much (burn-out) or too little (starvation)
steel creek
Just make sure to take everyone's advice with... " in my opinion", as none of the suggestions here are what I do nor what a lot of other people do either
It's entirely based on subjectivity - your workflow, i.e. whatever works best for you unless of course you have someone who is provided in pipeline for you to work within, which could include a schedule of when to do things and what to do
But where there's a will there's a way
hybrid phoenix
^
That
This is my way of full-timing
I know plenty of other people that do it differently
fickle hatch
There is no one right solution to organizing a work process
plucky hatch
The streamer I watch gets bits and pieces done before work every morning
and goes all out on weekends
He's pretty organized, so for those with less chaotic lifestyles that seems to work
hybrid phoenix
I mean, that's how I've been doing gamedev for the past few years
And I'm pretty damn chaotic 😛
That works really well if you're disciplined and/or really passionate
I'm not that disciplined, but this was always important enough for me to do it anyway
fickle hatch
I've attempted to make a 3/2 day division and a 4/1 division at my previous workplace (4 days at their place, 1 day working for myself), it worked well, but wasn't for me, my main work quickly swallowed my allocated days 😐
"Just stay an extra day this once" they said
fickle hatch
In the end, they did annoying stuff like "oh btw, today at 4 am we are leaving to the test range, you coming?"
So I stayed in the office and slept on the couch 😐
plucky hatch
😡 sleeping at work
pretend your partner is pregnant
and in 9 months you'll have your excuse
neat jackal
If you only get paid 9-5, be there 9-5, and just leave even if it's "just one more hour to finish blablabla..."
Keep in mind they are hiring your time from 9-5, not you stealing some hours from them
plucky hatch
not having a good excuse could hurt your upwards mobility
in terms of browni3 points
neat jackal
Eh, depends tbh. If I had to continually stay late, work extra hours/days, etc., I'd probably not want to work there for long anyways.
Unless all the extra time was paid for well.
plucky hatch
I usually stay late because I wouldn't gain any utility at home
neat jackal
Yeah that's fine - my response was more towards being forced to stay late by the company continually
plucky hatch
true
fickle hatch
Well, for context, my previous company was paying me well for my time 😄
So whatever, 4 am, I can do that
It was field work, not sitting in front of a computer at 4 am
But instead sitting out in a field while the mosquitoes try to eat your body
steel creek
M] RiverThomas (Fluminus): If you only get paid 9-5, be there 9-5, and just leave even if it's "just one more hour to finish blablabla..."
lmfao
and have no job next day, cool. cool.
and if you think that is not the case, and that unions wont replace your ass, lol
fickle hatch
Oh you can do that, if you're on top of the food chain
steel creek
exactly
fickle hatch
😄
I know there's a crisis in my home country now - previously IT stuff was only done by people who had higher education
But now they opened up a ton of semi-scammy "training courses", C++ in 21 days sorta thing
That seems irrelevant, but what it did is made all companies feel like every person on the team is replaceable
And 4 out of 5 companies absolutely abuse this
No matter that the market is now flooded with people who don't have skills, but have ambitions, the company is eager to replace a mid-skill programmer with two underpaid dumbasses
steel creek
but what it did is made all companies feel like every person on the team is replaceable gee whiz, thanks Internet of coders who think they got everything covered with google searches
plucky hatch
More like the market is flooded with programmer jobs but for 9000 jobs they have 3000 candidates and they aren't necessarily good
plucky hatch
It's not like programming is hard. It's just poorly taught
fickle hatch
It's 40,000 people to 2,000 jobs
Those are actual numbers from last year or so
2000 people got hired, 40000 people are estimated to be in the market for the jobs (for the entry level IT positions)
steel creek
sounds about right
fickle hatch
Ten years ago the situation was more like 2000 jobs, 3000-4000 applicants tops...
steel creek
Ok, do you know HOW (not write one, just know wtf it is) to make a selection sort algo?
... what is a selection sort....```I'm working at a company and there is a mix bag of people with university degree, others with associate computer science degree and others that went through a 1.5 years professional program to turn people into programmer analysts. Some of them are interns (students) and others have industry experience.
And it is obvious that all they needed was just a bit of training to get up to speed.
ACS, associate degree or university, doesnt matter
Experience does
fickle hatch
I've trained our 3D artist. He had the basics down, but he was an entry level artist who had clear traits of learning fast
plucky hatch
Which is a great trait that you need to have in any good employee
fickle hatch
It didn't matter he didn't know the specific methods if he clearly had the intuition and some internal sense to quickly figure them out
plucky hatch
Someone who isn't going to slack after university
fickle hatch
Yeah
Hngh. I really wanna get our development back on track
I miss being in a constant work process, but we had to slow it down cause of the usual indie game dev problems
fading yoke
I have all of these traits yet I'm still an unemployable loser
digital gate
well then learn ya some selection sort
steel creek
LeL
There's no way you can have all those traits and be unemployable
Unless you have a few other traits that make your personality so toxic nobody wants to work with you
fading yoke
You sound like an expert on that topic
fickle hatch
@fading yoke you shouldn't be shy about approaching people who seem cool to you by intuition!
If you're a fast learner who isn't totally broken, you'll be welcome in any community (like this one). Networking is pretty useful, even if you pursuit jobs on your own in parallel
steel creek
@love as a member of the human race, every person is an expert on that topic.
plucky hatch
Excuse me. Anyone knows how to apply my resume in Job board " Looking- for- work"?
ashen lynx
You can start by skimming through the guide section.
cosmic oak
@plucky hatch The pinned message in the job board has instructions.
cosmic oak
I'm graduating from college soon and have passed a programming test and interview and application for a game studio, they want me to fill out another application with a desired salary. I'm having trouble finding good resources on what I should say. Looking at glassdoor, there isn't a lot of info. The one listed is for Insomniac which is in an area with a much higher cost of living, so I am assuming I should ask for less than that. Anyone have any tips?
ashen lynx
A bit strange to fill out something related to salary after the interview. Double check that you are not being scammed. As for salary, if you are having trouble, leave the field blank. If asked, explain the situation.
cosmic oak
Sounds good. Thank you.
leaden fulcrum
I think asking this here is better. So im looking to expand my portfolio and would like to ask what gets people most interested in hard surface artists/ you have any ideas what i sohuld focus on makeing to expand my gallery ? https://www.artstation.com/dollon
ashen lynx
@leaden fulcrum Applicable to your piece, work on texturing, better presentation and surely low poly topology. Those poles should not be there.
leaden fulcrum
What you mean with those poles should not be there ?
ashen lynx
leaden fulcrum
Why does that matter ? the mesh otherwise would have way more polys the angles would be too high to remove the currently existing topology.
also there are no kind of distortions with that on the mesh you can see for yourself here https://sketchfab.com/models/c9002cf7f2594d81977f866a8fef12ea
so i dont really get your issues wiht it @ashen lynx
And i was mainly asking for what the best steps would be going forward.
ashen lynx
That was just an opinion. Don't take it as ground truth. Pretty sure someone will drop by and add something. As to why does that matter, the topic was covered in several threads on polycount.
leaden fulcrum
@ashen lynx it only matters with characters and deformable objects.
Doesnt matter if its on a static mesh
snow yarrow
It will matter regarding lighting
The normals need to be explicitly set so they point to the same direction, otherwhise you'll get ugly shading (because the Normals are averaged by default)
leaden fulcrum
Yee the faces i combine that way are complextly 0 out to each other. so no ugly shadeing can happen
I only combine verts on compeltly flat faces. Like the one on the side or the grip in this example
snow yarrow
I'd add those extra polys just to clean up the topology. If you need to change the model, things like that can get nasty really fast
leaden fulcrum
it doesnt need 40 more polys in the small amount of everything is completly flat.
You would preatty much be giving up Performence evn if its not by much to add more polys to something that doesnt need more polys @snow yarrow
snow yarrow
40 poly more or less wont decrease performance though.
If you want to have a good portfolio, you should clean that up
ashen lynx
@leaden fulcrum Where did you learn this misconception ?
snow yarrow
Quote from you:
So im looking to expand my portfolio and would like to ask what gets people most interested in hard surface artists
a bad topology will do the opposite
ashen lynx
You are wrong about going defensive mode for feedback disregarding if feedback is valuable or not. In my view portfolio should demonstrate ability to work clean. You will pick up ways of taking shortcuts as you gain experience. As to technical details of why this topology is substandard, it belongs to channels other than career advice. If you firmly decided, that you are doing it right, who am I to argue? If not, I suggest you to read up on polycount discussions on the topic.
We can continue on this particular topic in #graphics
cosmic oak
How do on-site interviews differ from phone calls/online programming tests? I have my first one coming up and am quite nervous.
flat gazelle
- It's on site.
- You'll meet people.
😃 Any specific questions?
An on site interview is as much for you as for them. Try to get a feel for the people. It's easier to do that in person than on the phone. What's the vibe in the office? Does it seem like a nice place to work?
cosmic oak
@flat gazelle Thanks! Not really anything specific, I am just nervous.
flat gazelle
Just relax. They are just people. Stressed out people as they are trying to get shit done. They need you.
plucky hatch
Here is my website/portfolio; looking for feedback. I've been away for a few years to add other skills to my belt. And... I'm back. 😇
https://christianphilippedev.wixsite.com/gamedeveloper
fickle hatch
I can't seem to be able to zoom into some of the examples on the documentation page of portfolio
The images seem to be clickable, but don't zoom in
plucky hatch
Thx. I'll see what I can do.
Seems like WixSite is wonderfully broken
fickle hatch
@plucky hatch Also it would be nice to have an email address on the contact page or something
Idk, these web forms never fill me with confidence
plucky hatch
I feel the same way. Same reason I didn`t put it there.
I wouldn't give my phone number either.
That's public.
I give them when I send my application for jobs, privately.
plucky hatch
@fickle hatch I`m going to use a panorama for now, but it seems that WixSite is broken when it comes to using a Gallery in a Blog
And it doesn`t give me an easy way to find the URL of those images.
fickle hatch
Yeah, overall it seems quite nice and I was interested to look through it
plucky hatch
I simply re-edited the page and added invidiual image for everything.
fickle hatch
Yeah! It's better than images you can't zoom
plucky hatch
I know some people are going to prefer this way, so they can just scroll down.
yeah
fickle hatch
I noticed you have documentation in french, but I did not see your knowledge of french when I was casually and not very attentively browsing the website
There are plenty of things to imply that is the case, but it'd probably be nice to have a separate line which says you can do both french and english if that applies?
plucky hatch
I work in Montreal, in general... people speak French by default here.
fickle hatch
Well, if this is intended for that locality, then it's fine
plucky hatch
I used to have a section on my resume on my website where it says: languages: French, English but it seems that I accidentally removed it.
fickle hatch
As someone who runs a company that's multilingual on every level, knowing 2+ languages adds extra positive bias in my view!
plucky hatch
haha, noted. Thx
The Counter-Strike docs were in French, because at the time I was playing CSS on French-Canadian servers.
Those servers died in population 1-2 years ago. Seems like everyone moved to CSGO
fickle hatch
Haha yeah. It's been a while since I've heard much of CSS
plucky hatch
@fickle hatch Out of curiosity, what do you think of the Digital Painting & the more Cartoony looking pictures?
I was wondering if the cartoony looking action scenes looked bad.
The idea was to show that I can illustrate characters in action, so we can understand what I'm talking about.
I'm not marketing myself as a professional comic book artist; nuance. 😂
fickle hatch
Dunno! That's not really a good question to me, someone else might have a better insight 😄
plucky hatch
Well, if it didn't bother you, seems like it's already a good sign lmao.
fickle hatch
Well
plucky hatch
The way I think of it, I'll be looking for game/designer jobs, so if I can draw... cool it`s a plus.
plucky hatch
hahahaha
fickle hatch
Currently they are rescaled in a way that leaves lots of annoying ringing artifacts on those sharp edges
plucky hatch
oh
fickle hatch
They look worse than they are because of ringing on the edges
I assume it's wix being stupid
plucky hatch
i just rofled in a quote of $0.1 / word for a writer.
steel creek
well, if you are a mid-grade writer that is about 50$ an hour
my GF is a writer, children's lit, picture books, etc... in "demand" expert, let's say, she avgs .30/word for copy-text
wanton raptor
I'm looking to work remotely with a professional or semi-pro team. I would work locally but I live in the middle of nowhere in Canada. I do a lot of general work and would like to learn more / refine my skills in a professional environment. My skills are a fairly good understanding of the asset pipeline, shaders / material authoring, 3d modeling, and texturing. I also have experience with blueprints.
Would anyone have any advice on how I can acquire a first job working freelance or perhaps get mentored by someone remotely?
I suppose first I would need to build up a portfolio, but I'm not sure what skills I'd want to focus on showcasing in terms of technical art. Should I just showoff various shaders that are fairly generic and wide-reaching but look good?
ashen lynx
Technical art is more of on-site position, than freelance. Finding decent remote long term contract as a technical artist is frankly hard.
General scripting and good specific examples of scripts done for widespread 3d creation packages are by far the most valuable skills that will get you long way, procedural meshwork being the most appreciated. Shader-related skills are secondary. Work with graph based shader editors is not really a skillset that would do you much good in a proper jobhunt. The range of tasks you will be doing varies greatly and focusing on something specific here is hard. Do something beautiful. Understand how it works.
wanton raptor
@ashen lynx Alright, thanks.
Do you mind if I ask why in particular procedural meshwork?
And, I'm assuming that would be a houdini skillset?
ashen lynx
60% of my work was related to automating mesh-related tasks in one way or another. Houdini is now pretty widespread, but it is not used in every pipeline. If you can make a script for lets say blender, that makes a said task, you will surely be able to do the same in Houdini within 20 hours of launching it for the first time. The skillset here is working with geometry. Houdini is a tool.
From my experience at present job, thin border between technical artist and tools programmer is barely defined. But that greatly varies from place to place.
plucky hearth
Would anyone mind giving me feedback on my website? I would greatly appeciate it. https://www.danieldocherty.net/
ashen lynx
@wanton raptor More targeted feedback. Whatever you have on artstation is more inclined towards art than tech. If you made a tool, that would automatically generate random breadboard layouts depending on some kind of inputs and spit out a game ready mesh, that would be a demo with more kind of weight for tech art. In the context, it is not really important, if the tool was made using any particular software.
But it being a script or even better, completely standalone, would be preferable.
barren lotus
@plucky hearth The Facebook link leads to a page that requires login and after logging in find out its a dead page, and the YouTube link only has one video from 2 years ago. I'd rather see a LinkedIn page than go to those two.
Everything else looks good, loved the gameplay clips with your music over them and the painted doodle of yourself!
plucky hearth
!!! THANK YOU!
I had no idea about those links, that's obviously a massive mistake
wanton raptor
@ashen lynx I see. Do you have any advice on moving on towards standalone apps rather than working with pre existing programs like blender? I'd assume I would likely be using C++ and some kind of graphics API like SFML or something?
plucky hatch
@! working exactly where amd how long...? I find it unlikely for a writer without portfolio and without any estabilished background is going to get anything for his/her work...
As you could easily hire a decent english speaker from some of the poorer countries just $5 hour and you ready overpaid them.
ocean stirrup
I have before but its still highly unlikely
plucky hatch
... you need good marketing to sell this 😅
remote saffron
plucky hatch
So he says basically. Don't be a game developer because no one cares about you and you can never be important enough to any game studio. Just like a Mc Donalds worker 🤐
remote saffron
I wouldn't say that
plucky hatch
But The story
sounds just like mine 5 years ago lol
except the beginning
3 months after starting there it fall apart (they were unable to pay salaries for 1 months then 2 months)
eventually i started a second job and quit
1 week after it closed
used up all my savings and had a few days nothing to eat cause of that yeah. But since i quit the entire industry my life just turned positive so explain that 😄
if not then i am either a shitty game dev or just bad luck
remote saffron
let's hope that bad luck it is
my take away is more like:
1.) try to avoid getting into a situation where you are in trouble if the studio closes (I guess that is easier in europe)
2.) don't let yourself exploit just to work for company xy you really like
3.) too much people wanting to work in the industry makes them exploitable, only do work if the conditions are fair 🤷
plucky hatch
"studio closes" they can still forget to pay you a salary ^^
and people were just promised it will be delayed one week and bla bla
after 1.5 months they eventually received it
but then the next 2 months again that's when people started to get very angry and not come to work actually
"don't let yourself exploit just to work for company xy you really like" what does it mean to you?
" too much people wanting to work in the industry makes them exploitable"
- this actually reduces the salary as they can find someone cheaper for certain positions
remote saffron
if they stop to pay you it's time to stop doing work, at least you have time to look for a better place 🤷
plucky hatch
And i only go to work for a company if they want ME not the other way around 😄
as you said
remote saffron
that is probably a good idea
plucky hatch
As a result i only take job offers and not send job applications end of story 😄 🤐
My CV would be just this:
"Can do everything"
anyways
and that looks weird for companies for some reason
remote saffron
can do everything does not sound like something I would take seriously 🤷
plucky hatch
I tried to write a very long list -> got back with overqualified responses
So i should put in there C++ developer and go for the low salary you say?
And then boss hires a "specialist" for 2times your salary for one month who lectures me about a subject i know way better than him? 😅
plucky hatch
Exactly. You can do "everything" and youre proud of it. But companies see you as a guy who can do a little bit of this and nothing else.
It's the same everywhre
spice dagger
Theres a reason companies ask for “relevant” experience. The law firm your applying for a job with doesnt care about your 15 years of professional mountain climbing experience when screening applicants.
That should be a happy bonus for them to find out after you get the job.
obsidian summit
Normally interviewers also have an eye on how long you where at your previous jobs, if they find a candidate that last only a couple of months in each one you might just go down the queue.
plucky hatch
Well i don't have CV
So no issue with that 😅
i have an email address
👌
"That should be a happy bonus for them to find out after you get the job." Might as well apply to be a cleaning lady and end up doing development and management for $1 / hour? Happy bonus for them
obsidian summit
So you do not have any online stuff or a traceable portfolio? If that's the case many company wont even go further, sometimes you got a ton of candidates.
steel creek
@plucky hatch working for herself and the last five years. Carter Higgins
And as I said $0.10 a word is still $50 an hour
ashen lynx
To me My CV would be just this: "Can do everything" looks more like a resume of a handyman, rather than IT specialist.
steel creek
Also if you're looking to pay somebody $5 an hour to do actual writing from like an actual writer you're not really looking for a writer you're looking someone to do? We can't even figure out what the hell you would apply the $5 to
My last resume for the language is known section I literally put: insert acronym of required
ashen lynx
@wanton raptor On this path, one way or another, you will get to code, willingly or not. Might not wait until forced and volunteer to get hands on it a bit earlier. Being familiar with one more APIs is a plus, but not directly related to position discussed.
wanton raptor
Alright. Any advice for a tool I can practice making?
You mentioned procedural mesh stuff, perhaps something to do with that?
steel creek
Make a fence tool
wanton raptor
@ashen lynx or perhaps I should just further my studies with shaders and work towards making nice scenes. I have to imagine that special effects is way more competitive though because from what I've read tech-art is fairly rare in comparison to other fields
plucky hatch
@ashen lynx I agree it was "too short" and was just playing around with words to reflect how much i hate making CVs
wanton raptor
@steel creek fence tool?
Like something that uses a spline to place a fence procedurally?
steel creek
It's kind of like the first thing that people do when they make procedural tools like when people first use CG packages and make floating spheres
wanton raptor
Got an example?
steel creek
If you just want the basics then yes just a placement tool
I'm sure there's plenty of examples on the marketplace
ashen lynx
I haven't met any single person, who would be enjoying making CVs, so that is perfectly normal. Standard corporate forms with a template questions, which are the same everywhere does not help it.
steel creek
Placement slat and post type replacement, jitter, etc
plucky hatch
Well last time i sent a CV
I was asked to make a demo something
I can't say a single company who was not happy with my work (Excluding the ones who forgot to pay ofc)
ashen lynx
@wanton raptor Generalizing message from !, practice automation of anything, you can think of, related to 3d modelling, rigging, level design and what not. In overriding majority of cases, this will be your main responsibility and a particular skill valued when considered for position.
wanton raptor
Alright. That makes a lot more sense.
And is right up my alley. I love designing scenes and I can imagine making tools to improve that workflow would be a lot of fun / rewarding.
@ashen lynx Do you think it's worth focusing on not only tech art, but lighting, shading, and modeling / texturing while doing this?
Like are these supplementary skills I should maintain?
plucky hatch
i also find it interesting the mindset from people here how much most people try to comply with what companies "want"
wanton raptor
We want to make money.
And chances are the things that make me money now will also make me money later when I end up wanting to make my own project.
ashen lynx
@wanton raptor Technical artist, not artistic technician. That kinda implies that you are fluent with generic art tasks.
wanton raptor
But just to re-ask something I mentioned earlier, how competitive is the visual effects scene?
I'm assuming it's not nearly as crowded as modeling and texturing, right?
obsidian summit
I'm not trying to comply to a company, I literally do the interviews so that's just one of the things I look at
plucky hatch
Los Angeles, CA well its an expensive city isn't it?
plucky hatch
That's what on your GFs twitter just asking lol
steel creek
Yeah because she doesn't put very specific information to let people know very specific information about us
wanton raptor
lol
steel creek
Me I dont particularly care
plucky hatch
🤔
steel creek
But I can tell you Glendale is expensive
plucky hatch
Well regarding your $5 / hour
I am cheap
I don't want to pay $50 / hour for something i can get for $5 / hour
And depending on where a person lives you may get different rates / quotes
steel creek
I don't think you're going to get the same thing at $5 an hour that you're going to get it $50 an hour from somebody who's an actual writer
ashen lynx
A writer for $5 / hour? That is utopic.
wanton raptor
I've made a procedural table with Houdini
steel creek
Better put a good qualifier in front of the word writer
plucky hatch
Definitely i won't get a good quality one. I was refering to a person without any background portfolio
that he expected too much for nothing.
wanton raptor
However I can learn through blender's API and I'm sure the skills will be transferrable.
At least the core skills, obviously not the API.
outer cipher
most TA work is done creating tools and shaders for other artists
to do that you need to use material editor and blueprint
wanton raptor
Blueprint? Wouldn't you be using C++?
outer cipher
or know cpp/csharp to create/modifiy modules for an engine
wanton raptor
I know cpp and sharp
outer cipher
not really, a lot of stuff is exposed to blueprint no need to reinvent the wheel
wanton raptor
lua
outer cipher
but knowing how to do it with cpp makes your skills more transferrable
wanton raptor
bit of python but not really
outer cipher
into other engines
I am currently learning python/houdini but it seems like it has a lot of potential
wanton raptor
I keep getting houdini licenses from the UE4 jams I enter into and fail at
I haven't really used it much but it's really neat what I've seen so far.
outer cipher
its just not very intuitive for modelling, if you do anything in the viewport it adds a new edit node to your graph
but the latest version has a lot of ops which are contained in a new polytool node and have viewport shortcuts
wanton raptor
I've been doing a lot with substance designer
and painter
I'm hoping those skills end up being valuable at some point
It's really cool if I need something simple I can just create it procedurally
outer cipher
yeah
I usually start a design in designer
and finish it in the material editor
generate the maps needed for the shader inputs, unfortunately you cant test stuff like zdepth/sss or animate textures in designer, so you have to go back and forth
narrow vigil
Hey all! I was wondering if anyone knew how you can contact someone like a recruiter at Epic Games? I've looked at the postings on there website, but I have several questions that I wanted to ask. Any ideas?
lilac walrus
I don't think you can really directly contact anyone (and this would be unusual for a lot of companies), so I guess it really depends on what kind of questions you want to ask
flat gazelle
@wanton raptor Game VFX is not crowded. There's a devastating lack of good artists. Hell, I'm in a relatively small city and thee are 6 studios actively looking for VFX artists. Some positions have been open for over a year.
Hell, every large studio is perpetually looking for VFX artists
honest cipher
VFX is probably the sector where there is the most demand
after that, maybe tech-artist and greybeard-level engine dev
game schools usually dont do game VFX, and movie schools VFX is a different kind of thing, so game VFX is very, very rare
flat gazelle
Particles is one part of it yes
Hell, I hired one this week and I need to find two more :S
There are none
honest cipher
as a non-vfx guy, this seems like a PERFECT freelancer market
flat gazelle
It's not
flat gazelle
Everything has to be done in engine so you need to know the project pretty well. It's fine in Unreal and Unity. Ish.
I did it for a while
honest cipher
ah, of course
flat gazelle
but for proprietary engines it's hell
honest cipher
i remember the developers of Mercury Steam
flat gazelle
And the run up for knowing the ins and outs of a new project is long
honest cipher
tellling me that finding particle guys was hell
and THEN they had to retrain them
to use their shitty as hell particlle system on their custom engine
so they needed an on-site guy, in spain
flat gazelle
I work in proprietary and I fully expect at least six months of training before they are a net positive
flat gazelle
Yeah, that's the second thing. You always need the full build to implement stuff as a freelancer. Let's just say that makes large studios jumpy.
Yup
Until then they will ask so many questions it detracts from my velocity.
honest cipher
i remember from the ubisoft guys, telling me that a new engine-dev hire was a negative for 2 years (assuming its a CS grad)
2 years
flat gazelle
Not surprised
honest cipher
yeah, CS grads vs actually-useful engine-dev
just look at ue4 itself, the level you need to actually add NEW features to it...
flat gazelle
big difference
honest cipher
on the related "training" part, do you know about stuff like hiring a guy who uses onlly maya and putting him to work on 3dsmax? (or other similar thing)
one of the things i was thinking about making my studio is to make peoplle use blender, couse 3ds/maya licenses are literally 3 months of pay
flat gazelle
I've been forced to use Max in the past
I don't agree with the policy of enforcing a tool, but it's not uncommon
honest cipher
its mostly due to licensing bulllshit, they alll have education licenses
so its basically piracy if i grab those modells and use them in a commercial product
flat gazelle
yep
karmic kayak
a maya license is 3 months of pay? in which dimension?
honest cipher
a 1 year maya license is 2k euros
thats 2 months pay for artist in spain
or 1 month if its a "top" artist
honest cipher
3d artists in spain are an absolute joke
thats why there are a bunch of "B" tier studios just to outsource
the character artist who made the DWVR models looked around for jobs
karmic kayak
if pay is that low. i can imagine why they leave the country tbh
honest cipher
the most she was offered is 1200 euros
everyone does
the only ones lleft are the mediocre ones
becouse people arent fucking idiots
Mercury Steam and Tequila games both have huge issues with the employees
karmic kayak
i know 😄
honest cipher
huge turnover
becouse they hire new artists, they git gud, and they leave for other country
same with the programmers
the artists are just paid less
kind of their fault for not increasing salaries tho
karmic kayak
imho work should pay off for everyone involved (not just for the employer, which saves costs)
honest cipher
and lets not even talk about the huge % of work that is done by unpaid interns
absolute tons
karmic kayak
unpaid interns. nuff said.
honest cipher
i get mails from game schools offering me free interns XD
karmic kayak
thats just disgusting but its reality yeah
honest cipher
they are desesperate to find something for the students
got 3 last year
but they were remote, and remote interns... doesnt work
at all
so the work done was low
once i make my office im getting 4 or 5, and they will actually get a good value from the internship. After all they can learn a lot
karmic kayak
even onsite interns can be laborious. depending on the persons exp.
honest cipher
at the moment, there are a lot more game schools than gamedev jobs in spain
its absolutely insane
a fuckton of them have popped up recently, and they tend to be fairly low level
and again, this is spain the highest you gotta get is 1500 euros salary
and there are barely any job spots
so yeah, the salaries get run into the ground
simple supply/demand
karmic kayak
tbh a lot of "game schools" are doing the programs just because of the money they get.
we have such school in germany too. only a few solid and serious ones
games academy is one of the best here
honest cipher
of course they are
honest cipher
one of the projects ive ported to Oculus Go was a massive disaster
not a single guy in that team was trained
the team was all the students of a school, but then the school solld the game
separately
essentially a full team of 100% unpaid interns
remote saffron
meh
we have only one serious game dev company in the country right now (for pc/consoles) and they take paid interns
for programmers
honest cipher
i dunno exactly why, but there is a very serious culture of unpaid interns in spain
it devalues the entire tech industry
tech is just beyond undervalued here somehow
honest cipher
all i know is that the salary im going to get at pubg is 3 times what Tequila games offered to me in spain
for more or less the same position
(actually maybe a higher tier position at Tequila games)
fickle hatch
I see the IT school issue in several other countries
They generate a ton of under qualified people for a very low number of vacant spots
tacit siren
here they got a bright idea to mishmash literally everything into the curriculum
from programming, to 3D modelling to business side of things
ugh
remote saffron
that just makes me think even less about game dev related degrees :(
thanks god we only had computer science/software engineer degrees in the country and that was the thing young idiots like me started when they didn't know anything but wanted to develop games 😄
fickle hatch
We had a generic "programming" degree that was called "cybernetics" (what it was is computer science without anyone shaping it into a nice consistent course)
But I avoided that cause it seemed like garbage already (even though it had 100x more substance than those gamedev classes)
It was 60% theoretical (not applied) math, 30% programming, 10% computer science theory stuff
tacit siren
if you can make the leap from theoretical to applied math yourself, not entirely useless
fickle hatch
I picked applied physics/electric engineering instead
Cause then you get applied math, applied physics, embedded and low level programming, high-level programming, databases and stuff included
remote saffron
sounds way better
fickle hatch
Plus lots of experience with interfacing real hardware things with software (that I guess aren't so relevant to gamedev)
tacit siren
the computer science courses also tend to mishmash everything
1 course in every language known to man each
- opt-in course for design patterns
just... terrible
doesn't really leave you in a state to hit the ground running when you're done
fickle hatch
Damn. I wish I knew someone with a good network, our project desperately needs a reliable partner 😄
crisp meadow
internships and placements are really valuable experience
remote saffron
yeah, and others were working paid as an intern, and they also learnt a lot 🤷
flat gazelle
Why are you working unpaid!? I thought you were a unicorn wunderkind 😉
crisp meadow
I didn't see the unpaid part, that is suuprising
remote saffron
I feel bad for your situation tbh, and would rather not see it as something cool :/
crisp meadow
Are you doing actual work or is it all learning? If you're doing actual work I think by law (at least in most places) it must be paid.
though it isn't our place to comment on your situation
remote saffron
company I worked for hired payed interns from university
they did real work
they were not necessary win for the company as they were not as effective as experienced coders, but most of them stayed there after the internship for full time position and that was pretty cool on the long run
much better procedure than exploiting people to work for them for free
tacit siren
there is the other side of it though, if you have a senior programmer spend 2 hours a day teaching an intern, it costs you more then payed untutored intern
remote saffron
too much people want to work with games which leads to them being exploited and worse working conditions in general, that kinda starts with unpaid interns
tbh learning on your own from internet on your awesome idea can get you paid jobs and might as well work better than working for free 🤷
tacit siren
as long as you have some reason to believe those interns are a long term investment, it is a good approach
crisp meadow
I did a paid placement for a year, the company (name is well known, but not in games) was shrinking and not doing any hiring, but they were fine doing a placement for students at a cheaper price. The fact they didn't hire the people they had in learning their code base for a full year was a bit odd as the experienced programmers were leaving with zero re-hires. Was probably a lost investment on their part.
flat gazelle
I would never take on an intern without a plan to hire them
tacit siren
nor would i, but there has to be an inkling of a plan to stay on their part as well
flat gazelle
yeah
fickle hatch
Galaxy brain, make people pay to be your intern 😄
remote saffron
universities do that 😄
crisp meadow
There are some companies that ask for a fee for training. Very dodgy. Not heard it often in software engineering industry though...
remote saffron
like seriously, i have heared cases where student work was put into payed project and student did not get payed at all
crisp meadow
yeah 😦 taken advantage of
trim needle
Same was happening with me
fickle hatch
Btw, what do you guys think is an acceptable max duration of an internship (for different positions)?
Err
Internship isn't quite the right word, but it works for internship too I suppose
trim needle
Our college gave us projects from clients and they were paying the college for it and we were like ok what we getting for it. Nothing, they weren't even letting us put that in our portfolio. So my team decided to drop the project and let college do it.
tacit siren
3 months? by then he/she should be ready to transition into junior position
crisp meadow
for internships I only really saw short ones of 3 months, and placements were a year. I suppose you could also get an internship for longer though. I would say a max of a year in all cases at least.
tacit siren
personally i think 3 months is long enough to evaluate an intern and know if he/she is worth investing in
anything above that is exploiting
fickle hatch
What about an evaluation period when hiring someone, as opposed to an intern?
crisp meadow
Internships and placements should have very regular contact periods so you might not have an evaluation period.
I think it is common for there to be a probation period in a new job, in the probation period they evaluate how you are getting on in onboarding and team integration. The probation period seems to last like 3 months, but only maybe the first few weeks are direct training/on-boarding.
wanton raptor
@honest cipher you mentioned unpaid internships, but I don't really live around any companies and I have a house and whatnot. Should I just work on my own stuff for now? I noticed you said remote internships don't really pan out so I'm curious.
Good to hear that VFX might be a road to travel as well since there's demand
plucky hatch
Whats your goal with that?
We have a couple of studends for free
They do stuff and mostly learn the process
but they learn everything on their own
wanton frigate
I see people talking about internships, but what about for people like me who have been working as a programmer in a different field (2 years Full Stack Web Dev for me) and want to transition to game programming/development? I'm not a college grad or student so I dont qualify for any internship ive every seen at any company. There are VERY few junior positions (they almost dont exist theyre so hard to find) and even those always say they want at LEAST a year or two of experience at a professional game studio. How could I possibly ever get that? Even if I made my own game that wouldnt count as working at a game studio since most specifically say they want you to have at least one AAA game under your belt
lilac walrus
making your own stuff is usually the way forwards
it's less about having 'two years of experience at a studio', and more about demonstrating capability to achieve goals
small non-profit Internet projects with a couple of likeminded other-disciplined people are usually good bets
honest cipher
make dumb cool shit and you will get showered with offers
lilac walrus
things like small mods can go a long way
honest cipher
its impressive just how popular my ECS experiment has been, or the rasterizer, and both of those are a couple day projects
wanton frigate
I mean I am working on my own game with a former colleague of mine because we both want to get out of web dev into game dev and thats the only way forward I can see.
But the whole "Just have a cool portfolio of stuff you made" didnt work out for either of us in web dev, even though thats what we were told to do there too. We just got "lucky" and had to spend the first 10 months of both of our careers working for a terrible boss who paid us like interns but had us doing mid level work the whole time until we got enough "on-paper" experience to qualify for other jobs
So when people tell me that im kinda skeptical
Maybe game programming is different though, I guess we'll find out once we finish our game lol
lilac walrus
If you manage to build a half-decent hobby project, it will usually go a long way towards getting a foot in the door
this is particularly true of programming
be sure to make your game as small as possible though, so that you can actually spend time polishing it
it's very easy to get stuck in a never-ending development hell, because you bit off more than you can chew
a lot of people don't realise even very simple games like Pac-Man took a small team something like 18 months to develop (not kidding)
wanton frigate
Well we're keeping the game small because we dont want a really long dev cycle anyways since we both have full time programming jobs as it is. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens. Thanks for the advice
fickle hatch
I think modding is an amazing way to get into gamedev
vivid pivot
As a programmer?
fickle hatch
As anyone
You won't be bound by lack of content to work with, just need some idea you enjoy
lilac walrus
Modding is still pretty huge within communities for well supported games
sadly well supported games are few and far between these days
plucky hatch
I agree with ambershee. When i was young and was starting had no prior experience i just made my own stuff. Eventually people contacted me in email and called me in for interview. I was sort of advetising what i've done so far, and not submitting applications. It was pointless as i had nothing to show off*. Once they start to contact you. no one will ask anything about ur experience or where did u work before etc. It's usually enough for them to see.
Also you may earn more from your own stuff if its really good than at a company.
karmic kayak
what do you mean by that? You usually don't pay your publisher...it's the other way around.
ashen lynx
10%-70% of sales for PC.
fickle hatch
Man it would be sad to give up more than 50% to publisher, though it’s scarily easy to come up with a situation which puts publisher share up there
high whale
Whats everyone take on game development degree vs a computer science degree?
As for getting into Game industry as a programmer
barren lotus
Comp Sci. And depending on where you go you can still take classes that overlap with game dev stuff
fickle hatch
Between gamedev and a compsci, it's probably the right choice to pick compsci
fickle hatch
My personal suggestion is to pick engineering/electric engineering, but that's not a ticket to gamedev specifically
I find that engineering education was more useful than compsci for me, but everyone will probably have different experience
Engineering education includes strong courses on algebra, various applied math things, basic physics of all sorts
high whale
@plucky hatch that was my idea if I went indie
Mainly heard AAA work conditions for programmers wasn’t too good
high whale
Is making a in-house engine worth it
Hmm I plan on trying AAA one day and get some experince under my belt first then go indie
flat gazelle
good plan
high whale
If I dont like it probably work for software company or something and do indie development on side till it kicked off
So other way around?
flat gazelle
That's a common viewpoint that really confuses me. Before you know the ins and outs of the business, start your own company. So not only will you have to learn how to make games well enough to sustain yourself you need to learn how to run a company at the same time.
high whale
Ya i heard people in industry get laid off left and right
tacit siren
provided you can earn enough to pay salaries^
flat gazelle
It's like. I like sleeping in Hotels. Let's open one. Surely I don't need to work in one beforehand.
It might work, but the odds are stacked against you.
tacit siren
the indie studios do hire people on occasion, too, you know
high whale
Where would you find indie studios that would hire you?
flat gazelle
Does discord have a !remind me function? There are many who come through this channel I'd like to check up on in five years to see how it went.
finite mulch
There are bots
high whale
Trying to plan future plans since I'll be starting school in janaury in computer science
though I have a friend who doesn't know what to do but he wishes to be a game designer
tacit siren
which will take 3? 5 years?
high whale
3-5 years yes
tacit siren
learn stuff, be active in some dev community, be good at what you do
and people will notice you before you're halfway through
no plan survives a first contact with the enemy
flat gazelle
There are unions in some countries already. I've been in one for most of my career
high whale
espcially after the TellTall thing
Well in America they are trying to form unions cause the crunch and overtime I heard in AAA isn't so good
I heard that before
So must be pretty true
high whale
Specialist don't exist in indie?
flat gazelle
They do
tacit siren
team of 15 can rarely afford a UI specialist, an AI specialist, a networking specialist... and so on
you generally end up working in more then one area
high whale
So more generalist in their fields?
tacit siren
which is good when you're exploring your interests
high whale
Hmm Idk what kinda programmer i'd specialize in tbh
flat gazelle
More generalists fulltime, then they take on specialist freelancers for specific work.
high whale
How does indie work since you can't really go fulltime indie
flat gazelle
Of course you can
tacit siren
i am fulltime indie
high whale
Really? heard most just do it on side of their normal 9-5
tacit siren
as long as you can sell enough games to live off of it
flat gazelle
People in this server, sure. But this server is not representative of the industry
tacit siren
you can be fulltime indie
high whale
Is it secure finnacially wise?
flat gazelle
Depends on how good and/or lucky you are
tacit siren
if the studio has been around for a few years
flat gazelle
If you have never made a game before, extremely insecure.
tacit siren
odds are it isn't going anywhere
high whale
Hmmm...How is FreeLance work in the industry
flat gazelle
Freelance works, but it's easier to make a living of when you have some experience. Being able to properly estimate and then deliver on that is crucial to be profitable.
flat gazelle
sigh
remote saffron
if your parents/guardian angle can finance you for 4-5 years then it's a pretty good idea
I mean for 4-5 years after university, so for another 4-5 😄
high whale
I get a lot back from school cause I got full ride so finnacial aid
fickle hatch
Being a full time indie developer is basically not a viable option unless you're already a well defined specialist in one field (programming, art w/e) - at very least
Even then, you simply have the basic prerequisite experience to consider it, not a gurantee that anything will work out
high whale
Hmm
Well thats why im considering going into a game studio to gain some expeirnce
then going indie
remote saffron
That makes way more sense
high whale
Unless you count college years as going indie lol
bleak dock
even when working with a studio you can still be indie if you work on hobby projects, those would be considered indie games
barren lotus
If he's creating something at home while employed at a AAA studio his employer might likely own his projects unless he goes through their internal legal process
bleak dock
you could be right, I'm not a familiar with that sort of legal stuff. My immediate thought is if you work on it off-hours and you don't have some sort of non-compete clause then you should be okay
fickle hatch
You need to read contract carefully and possibly consult legal help for it
barren lotus
Usually you can list prior inventions before you sign the contract, and they might ask for a game design document or some high level idea about anything you list. I would list down projects you have in mind, maybe even register them on Steam Direct so there's a record of you having it before you signed, but yeah consult legal help if you're really worried. Just remember HR is there to minimize risk for the company, always act in your own best interest.
high whale
ya
I heard AAA studios make u sign where while working for them you can't release certian titles
or anything u release is under their studio
fading yoke
You can always say no
high whale
So I decided tp get a major in computer science
What should I minor in
I heard mathematic minor is pretty good
and Physics
high whale
hmm
@fickle hatch So Physcis would work better?
Wouldn't math make me better at programming certian algorithims
and more programming applied math
fickle hatch
Math is math, physics is physics and applied math
young schooner
Pick which ever you think you will enjoy. If you like it, you will get better marks.
high whale
Trying to see if it’s possible to minor in both if I’m going for a masters and deepening possibly a doctorate
fickle hatch
It wasn't the knowledge, but the experience of university that was valuable to me
Experience in self-organizing, dealing with other people, but also specific experience in handling dangerous substances and doing experiments
Theory & practice of measurement and data analysis came very handy later in virtually all of my work
young cloak
Any advice for a graduate trying to get into the industry, i spent 3 years learning it at a university level now I'm finding it hard to even find a job in my specialisation let alone in QA.
kindred mason
@young cloak What was your major?
young cloak
Computer Games Development
west sonnet
Specifically Chicken
kindred mason
@young cloak What did you actually focus on though?
If anything I guess.
(I'm also a Game Dev graduate)
But I chose to focus on other shit that they were not teaching me 😃
young cloak
yeah thats why i learned level design and colour theory
west sonnet
Generally, you’ll have the most difficultly getting your foot in the door. The two absolute must to get a job is portfolio and prior production experience.
young cloak
its hard to get the exp when no one is asking for a level design grad or junior or intern etc
west sonnet
Indeed. Many work for commercials and other vaguely game related careers for the first year or two as a result.
lilac walrus
if you want to be a level designer, make levels for games
plenty of options out there to work with
if you have completed levels you can show, then you've a good chance of being hired
(but that's also going to stem from the quality of your work, which will get better as you do more0
kindred mason
@young cloak Show us your Level Design skills?
Where are your docs?
But yeah. Build up a portfolio with whatever you currently have. Include docs.
mental viper
Is UT still accepting levels? I dunno whats happening with that project.
compact mason
Alright, a group of people I'm talking to say that your resume should be 1 page long. But theres also another group of people who say it should be 2 pages in length.
I don't know which answer is correct, I'm applying for a web development position
ashen lynx
Quite likely the truth is, that number of pages in your cover letter/resume is the least important part of it.
fickle hatch
So how does one find people good at networking?
blazing dock
@young cloak just start designing levels and games in UE4
vivid pivot
Either is creating time or applying time, there is no waiting game 😉
blazing dock
so I'm a 3d modeler for an indie studio, but yeah, definitely just keep at it
maybe make your own game, I've been doing that in my free time
build ontop of that one game
keep making improvements, modular design etc
build the structures you need; a library of functions basically
if you see something better than what you made, figure out how they did it and do it better
remote saffron
@fickle hatch
step 1: be awesome
step 2: people good at networking will find you
fickle hatch
That’s true, but I am looking for something that involves action I guess
Let’s say I have stuff to show, where do I show it in addition to gamedev communities I hang out at etc
Kind of a rhetorical question
wise ferry
I guess it is different in IT world due to volume of people? In IT. it is bad to have a long resume. HR get so many resume, they look for any reason to toss them out and that is one reason. My CEO even told me to toss out long ones when doing hiring for my team. My dad told me the same many years ago, 1 page per 10 years experience. CEO told me same exact thing.
kindred mason
@fickle hatch Conventions 😉
fickle hatch
I'll be at the next GDC 😄
kindred mason
After you've exhausted all online resources (discord, slack, various gaming forums, reddit, press), it's physical time
fickle hatch
Conventions are a little tough because I can't travel right now
kindred mason
Aye
fickle hatch
@kindred mason yeah, actually one of the publishers we're talking to, we found them at some convention. I had to be present there remotely, through the bodies of underlings 😄
kindred mason
Hehe
harsh brook
@young cloak I feel your pain have been turned away from lots of jobs by now primarily due to lack of experience. Unfortunately, a portfolio isn't always enough as one recruiter tried to explain to me but just irked me. My recommendation grab any contract you can find and look for small things. As others stated Iv been working in commercials on contract and thats getting me by for now its the best tip I can reccomend
young cloak
@harsh brook i don't know here to look or what other fields my knowledge of level design can go into
dusky monolith
Hello , is it possible to go Canada and join indie developers......I am a game designer and 3d artist and wants to join or create a team.
I am finding an indie team
west sonnet
@dusky monolith #looking-for-work
young cloak
if any graduate jobs open up is there away to get auto called to take a look
kindred mason
Meh
I have a bone to pick with The Rookies
Especially after winning VR Game of The Year with them last year
But yeah, definitely submit
harsh brook
@young cloak I would say that you should look deeper then being a level designer. For example I really don't see arch vis as a radically different field then level design. Lots of jobs have different titles with the same idea behind them but they are in a different field then raw games even while using game engines
Gotta take what you can get until you can land the job you want and that might take a while super competitive industy
high whale
aye
For me i'm pursuing a Game programmer job
with CS degree however I will probably work with software company till then
errant pine
@kindred mason Why do you have a bone to pick with them did they not give you something they promised?
kindred mason
@errant pine yeah, basically.
Quite a bit. But it's no biggie. Should have said, had a bone to pick.
Hopefully they have it all straightened out this year.
desert frigate
What kind of content should I put on my portfolio when applying for an internship as a game programmer?
ocean stirrup
The best content you can think of
lilac walrus
depends on what kind of game programmer
but things like path-finding or specialised rendering solutions are often safe bets
desert frigate
Would a Crafting Inventory System be too basic ?
tacit siren
if i were looking at it, it would depend on how you wrote it
anything extensible, modular, easy to maintain is good, if its base is game agnostic that is another plus
functional UI, without any references from underlying system to the UI...
fickle hatch
Include info about the valuable part of the work you did
For an inventory system, the under-the-hood design of it probably is more relevant
Conceptually, an inventory system is pretty straightforward, so the value is in how exactly you implement it and how flexible it ends up and so on
honest cipher
make a prototype of an actual game
bonus points if its released on something liike itch io or similar
and no, a inventory system wont be much good
whats an inventory system by itself? needs to be more integrated into a game
fading yoke
@honest cipher Would you mind expanding a bit on what you should do after that? I'm asking for... a friend...
honest cipher
what an employer wants to know, is if you can perform the job
there is literally nothing else that matters
and thus, you need to demonstrate you can do that job
a good way is with the game projects, becouse it shows very clearly that you can get stuff done
funky projects are also a good thing
the funkyer the better
shows creativity and skills to do stuff that no one else does
an inventory system is crap, becouse there are SO many
i dont know if you just copied the approach of one of the 9999 inventory system tutorials
remote saffron
that kinda is the same for a game too tho
as there are tutorials for unreal/unity which you can follow step by step to create a "game"
desert frigate
Can you send me an example of a work that would like to be sufficient
Because at my level its really hard for me to think of something that doesn't even have a base tutorial
lilac walrus
good programming examples generally solve specific technical problems
so you need to have defined requirements first before building
if you have that, you can describe the how/why of the process you used and demonstrate the results
honest cipher
@remote saffron tutorials are for parts of a game
if you make like an "actual" game
even if a prototype
it shows that at least you can apply stuff
remote saffron
there are tutorials which make a whole game... it does not mean that you can't prove your skills via making a game, but obviously do not copy paste a tutorial game 🤷
honest cipher
@desert frigate join a gamejam or two
you can make whatever oyu want really. If you want to truly show C++ skills, dont use an engine
grab SFML or similar and actually build "anything" in pure code
a 2d platformer made in SFML would look FAR more impressive to me than anything you could do in unreal or unity
tho i would still look for someone who has done something with unreal if its a unreal job
west sonnet
I don’t agree with that. What defines a programmer to one that specializes in game development is their ability to work with a multidiscipline team. More often than not, your job as a programmer is to make modular tools. Now if you’re working as a build engineer or the like, than you better show you can make an engine.
kindred mason
"More often than not, your job as a programmer is to make modular tools" @west sonnet ... eh... maybe I'm misreading/understanding that part...but a programmer's job in a project will vary greatly by its needs. There are many different types of programmers and you don't always need a specific tool created for your project (or only ask the programmer to create specific tools)
As for the advice being given here. That's actually the issue. There are many different types of programmers and needs of a programmer in a project. If you want to specialize in something, then that's what you should show off.
If you don't want to specialize in any of thing, you can become one of the multitude "Generalists", which then you should have varied work being shown on portfolio. A simple game(s) completed from start to finish should allow you the title of "gameplay programmer", with detailed accounts of the system created and why you chose to do it that way. You can be a tools programmer (extending editor, creating plugins, etc) or you can do engine programming (but that's sort of tough in small teams, usually, just knowing how to use source and modify it to your needs should suffice as just having one person only doing source edits seems kind of a waste)
steel creek
100%
your "job" as a programmer, is to program
maybe "designer" would be a better title for someone making a specific target/design
high whale
I mean doesn't a Programmer do technical documents?
digital gate
a programmer can, or at least should be able to.
leaden pasture
In today even software engineers calls HIM as Programmer. I dont like that.
Sometimes some of QA tasks performed by programmers too. I hate that too.
My advice is just write a code as programmer. That is your main job. If no one can able to write docs in your team than you might think write about it.
high whale
Whats good porfolio for a gameplay programmer
barren lotus
Could look at the credits of your favorite game / games made by company you're applying at to find the programmers there and go to their online portfolios to get an idea
thorny grail
Hey, i started learning unreal yesterday only, i want to become a 3d environment artist (because i love 3d). I have a confusion, what's the difference between environment artist and level designer or there isn't any
west sonnet
Environment artist primary creates assets for the level. Level designer are responsible for design, placement of asset, and some programming functions of the level. It should be noted that both positions can have overlapping responsibilities of the other respected discipline depending on the studio.
thorny grail
so if i want to be an environment artist should i learn a little bit of level design and programming too?
flat gazelle
It never hurts to learn more things, but it's not required.
The environment artist is responsible for making a level look good while the level designer ensures it's fun.
They need to work together.
So it's often good to know what the other does
thorny grail
okay, thanks a lot . And yes it's true, learning programming is never bad
high whale
I say as an artist imo from a programmer perspective just a scripting language like Lua should be enough (Not that learning something like C++ wouldn't hurt)
bright socket
Hey! I have a related question to the one asked earlier about what a level designer does. I'm getting really interested in using blueprints in unreal to create communication between different bp's (opening doors with keycards, creating a choice widget based on the timing of pressing a button, etc) and using level blueprints and setting up functionality of UI elements such as health bars and menus. Is any of that in the category of a level designer? I'm trying to figure out exactly what I should specialize in.
lilac walrus
you'd have a hard time getting a programming job if you've only used scripting languages
@bright socket - that would be within the realm of a technical level designer
TLDs tend to be concerned with things like mission scripting, per-level props, and handling stuff like setting up AI data etc
bright socket
@lilac walrus thanks! Would it help to take a scripting class for that career path?
lilac walrus
it wouldn't hurt, I don't think
bright socket
Do technical level designers need to have a lot of programming skills or just a basic knowledge of programming logic?
lilac walrus
they need to be technically capable enough to script things, so some knowledge can be useful
bright socket
Okay, that makes sense, thank you so much!
high whale
They are basicly game designers with some programming background lol
But still with a niche on focusing on design more so than the scripting part
west sonnet
Basically you get to do the fun part of programming 😜
gaunt storm
What would you suggest is the best way to truly learn UE4? I am currently doing a 4.5 hour tutorial where by the time you reach the end you have built a scenic map and landscape from scratch but from there what assets should I look to if I wanted to try and development a full game?
plucky hearth
Hey guys, I've got a weird one: Someone, who is on this discord, is telling other devs that I said some really racist comments to him, and is even going as far as to provide fake screenshots showing I said those things. Any suggestions?
finite mulch
@plucky hearth Just DM one of the moderators if it's really an issue
That has nothing to do in this channel
pearl parrot
@gaunt storm you going to learn blueprints as well?
bright socket
@high whale lol okay thanks 😃 @west sonnet lol the fun part.. sounds nice 😄
gaunt storm
@pearl parrot Whatever I have to learn. I’m currently downloading Maya so I can do my own meshes
I just want to know where the best place is to help me master these softwares and elements
pearl parrot
the 3d modeling side of thing I would promote polycount, and for learning
Blueprint I recommend Virtus on youtube
www.autodesk.com for maya
gaunt storm
Appreciate it
robust thorn
Hi all, i am 3d artist i can create procedural assets and procedural textures, i using SideFX Houdini and allegorithmic designer and painter. I have any complete unreal projects., portfolio small is here https://www.artstation.com/infinitex
my last project https://www.artstation.com/artwork/aRYBl0
high whale
What do you guys use to make your portfolio?
finite osprey
Hey folks. Did a code interview with a company I can't mention for NDA reasons.
Wanted to give an example of the mid-level questions that get asked.
In this case, it was to make a linked list system with a few extra functions, like getting the number of entries with a particular value.
Key things are ensuring that const functions are const and that a destructor is properly made for the linked list.
Lastly, they asked to change the contents of each node to Float and wanted to see if I knew Epsilon.
As well as the Fast/Slow algorithm
fickle hatch
Epsilon?
finite osprey
an arbitrarily small number used to determine if floats are equal
If the difference between the two is less than Epsilon, then they are considered equal even if they don;'t have the same bytes
fickle hatch
Oh, I see. The way you typed it out made it seem like a name of some product or something 😄
lilac walrus
I've not heard it referred to as epsilon before, hehe
though Unreal's internal numbers for that are amusingly named if you've ever seen them 😄
remote saffron
they are kinda cool
steel creek
That's not an epic thing that's a mathematics thing
Typically because it's a computer you call it machine Epsilon
lilac walrus
I know it as unit roundoff, I don't think anyone called it an Epic thing
steel creek
fading kite
Does anyone have any advice on looking for entry-level game dev jobs? I'm graduating with a comp sci BS degree in May and the pressure is building. I've always wanted to do game dev but never considered the possibility until I met an intern for a company in Georgia.
I wish I had considered the option sooner and prepared, but what's something I could do now that I'm in my senior year?
lilac walrus
don't expect a job after graduation - you will probably need to build a portfolio first
so you'll need some other job to keep you going, whilst you work on some stuff in the mean time
kindred mason
Eh
Plenty of folks are able to land jobs after graduation
But sure, don't just assume you'll get one.
@fading kite DO game jams 😃
Do personal projects 😃
That's all you can do now
Your senior year...you should have one or two senior projects
See if you can do it in UE4
fickle hatch
Find cool people and do cool projects with them, make sure you preserve all data and development stuff about the project even if it doesn't go anywhere in the end
high whale
Eh I don’t graduate till way later plus I’m going for a masters in computer science
pearl parrot
@fading kite you could sit down and try to make a game in unreal. prototype nothing AAA your first go.
fickle hatch
Does anyone offer PhD in game development
high whale
I don’t think u can get a phd in game development 💀
kindred mason
@fickle hatch @high whale Pretty sure you can
Cause there are some "docs" in texas
They won't be called gamedev though probably
Other ones if you Goggle. So they are there, just a bit hidden
fickle hatch
It's pretty interesting
For me personally, if it'll be a PhD, it'll be in aerospace engineering 😄
barren lotus
My alma mater DePaul University offers a MS in Game Programming, but yeah no PhD specifically tied to games there
high whale
I mean I live in Texas
U can get a computer science degree with a game development specialization
There is a Game DESIGN speceficly doctorates but other areas or like programming no
fading kite
@kindred mason @pearl parrot @fickle hatch Thanks for the advice, guys. I appreciate it.
finite osprey
@fading kite As someone who got a job right out of college, the best thing you can do is demonstrate you can make games. If you're a pure programmer, either try to develop your own game or a meaty part of another game. Modding and fan-patches are also an option.
fading yoke
@finite osprey As someone who never got a job out of college (c/o '10, BS Math), it doesn't matter much how good your portfolio is unless you're trying to be a freelance contractor. Employers have never shown any interest in my portfolio, my modding background, my game jam awards, or the tools that I've created.
My point is that nobody knows what they're talking about when they give advice for getting a job. Especially me.
finite osprey
Have you tried applying to a gamedev job? Most recruiters and team leads I have talked to would be over the moon to find a candidate with that volume of work.
fading yoke
I hear that a lot from people, and you'd think that that'd be the case, but the reality doesn't match the rhetoric unfortunately.
I'm at 848 job applications so far this year and, taking away recruiter phone screens, I've had only 15 interviews
That's about a 1.5% interview/application ratio
finite osprey
How many phone screens did you receive?