#career-chat | Unreal Source | Page 51

remote saffron Sep 11, 2018, 11:53 PM

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i'm more into QA these days 😄

chrome bone Sep 11, 2018, 11:53 PM

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😛

merry tartan Sep 11, 2018, 11:56 PM

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I started in QA 30 years ago at atari was a great place to start but you have to teach yourself the skills that will allow you to get out, I got promoted out based on game design ideas that increased the revenue being generated but it was a simpler time.

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back in those days we had did tech support / help line for games and tested and did customers returns

plucky hatch Sep 12, 2018, 3:18 AM

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Hi! I’m a senior in highschool and I’ve been using unreal engine 4 for about a year now. I’ve got 3 open class periods due to some schedule issues, so I was wondering what the best way to find an internship (paid or unpaid) near me is

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For some more context, I live in California about an hour from LA and my skills are advanced bp scripting and beginner C++

hybrid phoenix Sep 12, 2018, 7:09 AM

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@chrome bone what studio do you work for?

fickle hatch Sep 12, 2018, 7:40 AM

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It's very obvious when a person has a ton of work behind themselves

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Even without showing your work, having a ton of stuff you've done will inevitably show in any conversation that touches on specifics

fading yoke Sep 12, 2018, 8:28 AM

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@fickle hatch I know this sounds like me being asshole but unfortunately I have a ton of stuff I've done over the years and sadly I only ever get told that I don't have enough experience

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I'm very happy for your success! I wish I had had those kinds of opportunities

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Yeah I've been gradually getting the feeling that the only way I'll ever get a job is if I make it myself, like what you are saying

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It's really sad for me though because I have very little job history (i.e. graduated college in 2010, so I've gone from no jobs to no experience)

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When I reach out to people I keep being told that I have a great portfolio, my awards from game jams are great, etc etc, but sadly it has never lead to any jobs.

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Thanks for calling me a loser

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You're right though

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I am a loser

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I agree with you that the kind of average game jam entry for these official Unreal things are probably like that, yeah

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And I have a handful of those but I also have a handful of award-winning game jam entries too

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I like to think those are good enough

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But evidently not unfortunately from my experience

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Job searching is really weird because the more experience you have, the worse you are at it

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 8:35 AM

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gamejams are for losers
that's a pretty bad take

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just sayin'

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also @fading yoke what about taking one of those gamejam games and developing it further?

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@plucky hatch your opinion is insulting

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to all who partake in gamejams

fading yoke Sep 12, 2018, 8:36 AM

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If I were a Senior artist making six figures I'd also not give a fuck

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But I'd also not be shitting on poor people in chatrooms on the internet

ashen lynx Sep 12, 2018, 8:37 AM

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Depends. Proper gamejam credit is not a key point, but will be taken into consideration.

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 8:37 AM

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if you want to throw opinions around go into #lounge @plucky hatch

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<@&213101288538374145> @plucky hatch is insulting people

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telling them to "fuck off"

granite brook Sep 12, 2018, 8:38 AM

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Jesus christ, can't you peeps behave for at least one day?

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 8:38 AM

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wow

ashen lynx Sep 12, 2018, 8:38 AM

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Someone had a bad day at work.

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 8:39 AM

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why is it so hard to just be nice to people?

granite brook Sep 12, 2018, 8:39 AM

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@plucky hatch We have #old-rules that don't allow you to use such language.
Take it or leave.

lilac walrus Sep 12, 2018, 8:39 AM

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I've hired people on the basis of their game jam contributions

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¯_(ツ)_/¯

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 8:40 AM

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your freedom of expression stops when you're insulting people, telling them to fuck off and calling them little bitches

lilac walrus Sep 12, 2018, 8:40 AM

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it's not an exclusive thing to look for, but I'll take the applicant game jam experience over the ones who don't heh

granite brook Sep 12, 2018, 8:40 AM

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@plucky hatch It's not about your opinion, it's about how you word them.

spice dagger Sep 12, 2018, 8:41 AM

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@plucky hatch Your opinion is irrelevant stop being an asshole its pretty simple mate. Read the #old-rules and stop being so combative towards others.

ashen lynx Sep 12, 2018, 8:42 AM

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Depends a lot on the recruiter. Prudent ones will always take anything into consideration, jams included. Does not mean that hastily slapped together prototype with placeholder assets will count as a plus.

granite brook Sep 12, 2018, 8:46 AM

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I would rather hire the child than the person who can't behave at all

lilac walrus Sep 12, 2018, 8:46 AM

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^

pastel estuary Sep 12, 2018, 8:47 AM

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people who dont play well dont deserve a spot

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 8:47 AM

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people wonder why the games industry can be such a toxic mess sometimes and then i come across such gems

ashen lynx Sep 12, 2018, 8:48 AM

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this industry is not an exception. It is applicable to any field.

pastel estuary Sep 12, 2018, 8:49 AM

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there is so much wrong with that statement i cant even

granite brook Sep 12, 2018, 8:49 AM

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Who are you anyway lol

pastel estuary Sep 12, 2018, 8:49 AM

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/221796616653373441/487236862935826442/COlyhIy.gif

ashen lynx Sep 12, 2018, 8:49 AM

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You do sound, like you had been taken down during a recent interview. @plucky hatch

north narwhal Sep 12, 2018, 8:49 AM

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i have never seen a more apt reaction gif

spice dagger Sep 12, 2018, 8:51 AM

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Lol

north narwhal Sep 12, 2018, 8:52 AM

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bye

hybrid phoenix Sep 12, 2018, 8:52 AM

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Let's go with that shall we

ashen lynx Sep 12, 2018, 8:53 AM

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¯_(ツ)_/¯

north narwhal Sep 12, 2018, 8:53 AM

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i would hire two or three people half as good as that guy

flat gazelle Sep 12, 2018, 8:53 AM

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I'm gonna miss mr I got my first senior title and will tell anyone about it because of how awesome I am 😦

vivid pivot Sep 12, 2018, 8:53 AM

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Seemed like a nice guy kappa

lilac walrus Sep 12, 2018, 8:53 AM

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Ah, you booted him before I could copy the transcript

granite brook Sep 12, 2018, 8:53 AM

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Sorry, was forging some net code and slipped with my hammer.

pastel estuary Sep 12, 2018, 8:53 AM

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sounded like a dutch guy hehe

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 8:53 AM

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i need a coffee now

karmic kayak Sep 12, 2018, 8:53 AM

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my read was interrupted.

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😄

north narwhal Sep 12, 2018, 8:53 AM

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here is some A+ tier carrer advice... don't act like him

lilac walrus Sep 12, 2018, 8:54 AM

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I actually have a Skype call with his HR person tomorrow, lol

hybrid phoenix Sep 12, 2018, 8:54 AM

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^^

north narwhal Sep 12, 2018, 8:54 AM

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free advice, get it while it's hot

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... do you?

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 8:54 AM

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whatever you do in whatever industry: don't be a douchebag

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best advice

north narwhal Sep 12, 2018, 8:54 AM

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that's amazing

lilac walrus Sep 12, 2018, 8:54 AM

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yeah, by pure coincidence

vivid pivot Sep 12, 2018, 8:54 AM

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Industry... life just ever 😉

north narwhal Sep 12, 2018, 8:54 AM

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lol

spice dagger Sep 12, 2018, 8:54 AM

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Lol @lilac walrus

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That’s hilarious

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 8:55 AM

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i'am in awe of his toxic AOE attack

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pretty high level 😄

ashen lynx Sep 12, 2018, 8:55 AM

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world is just one small village nowdays.

spice dagger Sep 12, 2018, 8:55 AM

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Im sure he will change his tune if his HR rep has a word to him about attitude lol

north narwhal Sep 12, 2018, 8:55 AM

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i kinda want to know what studio he works for, but that's way over a doxing line I don't want to actually cross

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 8:56 AM

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i've got a feeling that justice will be served eventually

flat gazelle Sep 12, 2018, 8:56 AM

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Rule 1 - 17 of the industry is just this repeated: Don't be a dick.

north narwhal Sep 12, 2018, 8:56 AM

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cause if they employ people like that, I'll, uh, not work with them

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 8:56 AM

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can't be that aggressive and survive for long

north narwhal Sep 12, 2018, 8:56 AM

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not even at Riot! 😛

lilac walrus Sep 12, 2018, 8:56 AM

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the thing with this industry is, that it's very small and people have long memories

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 8:56 AM

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weeeeell 😛 @ riot

remote saffron Sep 12, 2018, 8:56 AM

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it was weird to read this conversation after all the text of the guy was gone

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just missed it damn 😢

north narwhal Sep 12, 2018, 8:56 AM

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that might be a little bit more shade than necissary 😛

flat gazelle Sep 12, 2018, 8:57 AM

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Shots fired Roy

north narwhal Sep 12, 2018, 8:58 AM

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I have a friend (who happens to be a woman) who once worked at Riot... I believe every single story that has been coming out of there

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absolutely no doubt in my mind all of that happened

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and continues to happen

lilac walrus Sep 12, 2018, 9:00 AM

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I suspect they'll have clamped down on a lot of that shit now to avoid a second round of bad press

remote saffron Sep 12, 2018, 9:00 AM

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people working there should riot 🤔

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 9:01 AM

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i worked for a PR agency who also did change management - and even if top management bought 100% in, it would still be an uphill battle

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changing culture of a large company is the literal burger hill

lilac walrus Sep 12, 2018, 9:02 AM

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company culture can change fast if your staff turnover is high though

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 9:02 AM

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yeah

north narwhal Sep 12, 2018, 9:02 AM

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i think they are trying to avoid the high turnover

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cause that is universally bad

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 9:02 AM

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if your hiring peeps are part of the new culture

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yeah knowledge drain can be a huge drag on your company (+ all the other reasons)

honest cipher Sep 12, 2018, 10:20 AM

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company culture comes from the top, usally

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wich really doesnt talk well of the Riot founders

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but given the founders were some of the original Dota (the mod) modders, i can expect if a company is forged on top of a bunch of trastalking gamers and then grows massively

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makes total sense

lilac walrus Sep 12, 2018, 10:24 AM

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from what I gather they also only hire people who play League obsessively, so that probably doesn't help either

honest cipher Sep 12, 2018, 10:24 AM

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meanwhile, in Dota2, Icefrog, the lead designer, is still anonymous

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and he stopped communicating with the community

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after he posted a pic of his cat in the forums something like 6-7 years ago and people flamed him for not working on dota patches

lilac walrus Sep 12, 2018, 10:25 AM

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he's not anonymous, hehe

honest cipher Sep 12, 2018, 10:25 AM

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pretty anonymous

lilac walrus Sep 12, 2018, 10:25 AM

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I know who he is

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¯_(ツ)_/¯

honest cipher Sep 12, 2018, 10:25 AM

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but thsoe are mostly rumors. There are a few candidates

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very, very smart of him to stay anonymous

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moba fanbases are extremelly rabid

lilac walrus Sep 12, 2018, 10:27 AM

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I've steered clear of the entire genre based on how utterly toxic those communities are :/

vernal kraken Sep 12, 2018, 12:12 PM

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same here, stopped playing dota2 and now watching pro's play it out

chrome bone Sep 12, 2018, 2:49 PM

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i deleted my reddit account last year due to the same.

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its just not worth it out there atm.

honest cipher Sep 12, 2018, 3:24 PM

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i stopped playing Dota2 after spamming a hero got me mad amount of reports

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i never got banned (becouse my conduct is impolute and perfect), but i still got thrown into the "troll" bracket

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and that got me from the "best behaved" player backet, into the "worst behaved" bracket

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thats the "true" Elo Hell

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the Dota2 matchmaking has several axis, its not just "skill level"

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it also matches by sketchyness, smurfer, and troll level

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i remember when i smurfed with a new account, and i could see it clearly when the matchmaker just tried to stack the odds against me by matching me with 4 other smurfers instead of normal people

chrome bone Sep 12, 2018, 11:07 PM

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smart!

honest cipher Sep 13, 2018, 8:08 AM

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they do the same in counter strike

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they have said its a huge upgrade

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essentially they are using machine learning and other stuff to check the "sketchyness" of a player

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and they use that value in the matchmaking

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they put the sketchy players together, and the 100% fully legit players also together

delicate apex Sep 13, 2018, 8:38 AM

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meanwhile Blizzard just keeps giving you worse and worse teams until your win-loss ratio is 50

spice dagger Sep 13, 2018, 8:39 AM

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I stopped playing Overwatch cause it just felt like you were placed with bad players just to ensure your W/L was always balanced....

honest cipher Sep 13, 2018, 8:39 AM

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@delicate apex valve does too

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it tried to throw me into trash teams exactly one out of every 2 times

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when it decided i had to lose

vernal kraken Sep 13, 2018, 8:40 AM

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that's the straw that broke it for me

honest cipher Sep 13, 2018, 8:40 AM

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but that was for the smurf

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it looked to me like the system was "testing" me

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"is your skill real, or are you just getting carried"

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so it trhows you into a shit game for you to carry the fuck out of it

vernal kraken Sep 13, 2018, 8:41 AM

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what if you're support?????!?!

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😉

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i started playing supp because nobody would

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then i watched derps fight over who's mid

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and more often than not one of them feeding

honest cipher Sep 13, 2018, 8:42 AM

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a good support can still carry a team of retards

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but its hard

vernal kraken Sep 13, 2018, 8:42 AM

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not if they're inepts

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no chance

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only if the other team is made up of inepts as well

honest cipher Sep 13, 2018, 8:47 AM

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they usually are

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i found that games are either "smurf central" or "actual 4.5k mmr people"

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nearly no inbetween

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and thats on both sides

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i lost some of the "actial 4k mmr" matches when i was smurfing. But i was ok with that becouse those were usually good games

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the smurf bracket was hell

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both team extremelly toxic

vivid pivot Sep 13, 2018, 8:48 AM

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Maybe this is more of a #lounge topic 😉

flat gazelle Sep 13, 2018, 8:48 AM

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Not sure this is Career Advice to be honest

honest cipher Sep 13, 2018, 8:48 AM

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true

iron bluff Sep 13, 2018, 8:50 AM

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Can anyone explain how can I post in the Looking for work channel?

honest cipher Sep 13, 2018, 8:50 AM

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you need to PM the bot with !talent

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and then he ask you for each of the sections

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have them prepared before hand becouse the bot gives you 30 seconds

iron bluff Sep 13, 2018, 8:51 AM

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K thx...and where do I find this bot?

vivid pivot Sep 13, 2018, 8:51 AM

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@iron bluff check the pinned messages and use cmd/ctrl k for bot

iron bluff Sep 13, 2018, 8:57 AM

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Thanks

night stump Sep 15, 2018, 10:22 AM

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What mathematics would be the best to know for the gaming industry/programming, im guessing algebra, booleans, vectors what else?

tacit siren Sep 15, 2018, 10:41 AM

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combinatorics

flat gazelle Sep 15, 2018, 11:36 AM

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Linear Algebra

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It includes the vector math, matrices, dot and crossproducts.

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All the stuff you need as an artist

hybrid phoenix Sep 15, 2018, 11:49 AM

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Linear algebra

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I rarely use anything else, I think

honest cipher Sep 15, 2018, 12:17 PM

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without a doubt linear algebra

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i know more math than that, but LA is what i use daily

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havent used calculus even once

steel creek Sep 15, 2018, 2:09 PM

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LA and combinatorics and "maybe" statistics, but it's typically just stats 101

hybrid phoenix Sep 15, 2018, 2:41 PM

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For statistics common sense will usually suffice

dusty jolt Sep 15, 2018, 3:22 PM

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@night stump game engine volume 1 mathamtics is super good entry book

lilac walrus Sep 15, 2018, 8:37 PM

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mechanics / kinematics is very useful for gameplay

chrome bone Sep 16, 2018, 4:31 AM

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@dusty jolt nice to hear a book recommend. I was thinking of something like that as a study subject next year.

honest cipher Sep 16, 2018, 8:35 AM

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@chrome bone pick up Real time rendering 4th edition and Game Engine architecture 3rd edition

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real time rendering has a chapter on math that explains everything in more detail than other books, but explains it very well

vernal kraken Sep 16, 2018, 9:16 AM

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there's also the 3d math primer by some valve engineers

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https://www.amazon.com/Math-Primer-Graphics-Game-Development/dp/1568817231

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don't judge it by it's cover 😉

chrome bone Sep 16, 2018, 2:53 PM

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Hmm neat. Good stuff dudes

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Maybe we should carve out time for class study in studio with the non programmers (blueprint dudes)

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Might be good for everyone

fading yoke Sep 16, 2018, 4:49 PM

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I was a math grad in University and have experience as a math teacher. I'll teach linear algebra if that's what you'd like!

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(please hire me)

chrome bone Sep 16, 2018, 5:58 PM

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😛

icy nimbus Sep 16, 2018, 7:52 PM

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I am a software engineering student with average skills in C++ looking to start building games on Unreal Engine 4

Its not easy i know
But all i ask of you is to hit me up with knowledge and a guidebook on what to learn and where to start

Recommend me all the books/guides/tutorials and best practices to do

I will take it all in

ocean stirrup Sep 16, 2018, 8:09 PM

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Look up tutorials on youtube

plucky hatch Sep 17, 2018, 7:36 AM

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Just started my own studios and about to begin designing my first game concept, any advice?'

lilac walrus Sep 17, 2018, 7:38 AM

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don't call it a studio until it's a studio

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if you don't have a business, and a business plan, you're just making a game

vivid pivot Sep 17, 2018, 7:39 AM

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Consistency and perseverance are key, good luck

lilac walrus Sep 17, 2018, 7:39 AM

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in which case #design-chat

neat jackal Sep 17, 2018, 9:00 AM

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My advice would be having a plan to make money immediately, don't call it a studio/company/business until you do. For my studio, it started out making money as freelancer and using that to fund an own project - which means there is revenue, money is being made, it's sustainable even if not ideal. But so long as you're designing a first concept, making a first project, or anything else where you're not sustaining yet, it's not a good idea to call it a studio.

wanton viper Sep 19, 2018, 5:58 PM

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Apparently, Epic Games has an HQ near where I live. Do you think I could intern? 🤔

lilac walrus Sep 19, 2018, 5:59 PM

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depends on whether they take interns

wanton viper Sep 19, 2018, 6:03 PM

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It looks like they do at certain times of the year

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Does anyone have any tips for building a portfolio?

vale rose Sep 19, 2018, 6:37 PM

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What discipline?

wanton viper Sep 19, 2018, 6:59 PM

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Programming

vale rose Sep 19, 2018, 7:16 PM

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I focus on art and the technical teams, so it's just my opinion that you should build a plugin or an extension for use in the engine or an existing IP, make sure it matches the type of programming you want to be doing. Don't use school projects or anything made for a game or engine that doesn't match the company you're going for.

I also don't like game jam entries in a portfolio or resume. I like seeing clarity, structure, and functionality.....which aren't usually found in a jam.

I'd get some thoughts form a lead programmer if you can though.

fading yoke Sep 19, 2018, 7:17 PM

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@wanton viper imo win or be a finalist for a few game jams or hackathons and then you can rest assured that you have a decent portfolio

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Then again I am an unemployable loser irl so take my opinion with a grain of salt, though I think it's a good one

lilac walrus Sep 19, 2018, 8:33 PM

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jams are a fine thing to have, but they shouldn't be the only thing

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plugins or extensions are good if you intend to go into tools programming

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if you want to do gameplay, things like mods can be better

outer jasper Sep 19, 2018, 9:37 PM

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Are there any jobs as easy as school?

solemn lantern Sep 19, 2018, 9:38 PM

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teaching seems pretty hard tbh

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 9:39 PM

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It's easy if you've been doing it for many many years 😄

outer jasper Sep 19, 2018, 9:39 PM

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no I mean like attending school and doing the projects and the work are super easy but then you get to the job and everything sucks

solemn lantern Sep 19, 2018, 9:39 PM

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well thats just work for you

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 9:39 PM

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I mean, life will suck in any case after you get out of school

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That's just life for you

solemn lantern Sep 19, 2018, 9:39 PM

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they wouldnt pay you if it was easy

fervent pendant Sep 19, 2018, 9:41 PM

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Any tips to get into the gaming industry? I'm about to finish my AA Degree next year

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 9:43 PM

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Do you genuinely want to be part of the game industry?

solemn lantern Sep 19, 2018, 9:43 PM

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if you know anyone already in the industry, your best bet is trying to get an interview through them

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 9:43 PM

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Do you need tips on getting a job or getting the skills?

solemn lantern Sep 19, 2018, 9:43 PM

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otherwise just try applying with your portfolio to every compnay you can

fervent pendant Sep 19, 2018, 9:47 PM

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I have a certificate in Photoshop. I have experience with UE4 and worked on three projects by myself. My twitter & YouTube for game dev stuff is RedFeather_Dev I can do lighting, texturing, level design, game design, and a little bit of UI. To answer your question, yes I genuinely do what to be apart of something I love. I've been a gamer since birth lol

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 9:50 PM

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That's fair

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Just giving you a disclaimer, working in videogame industry will be stressful and there are better jobs that pay more for less stress

flat gazelle Sep 19, 2018, 9:51 PM

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But they are nowhere near as awesome as making games are.

hybrid phoenix Sep 19, 2018, 9:51 PM

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I also want to give the annoying disclaimer that this

I genuinely do what to be apart of something I love. I've been a gamer since birth lol

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Is something a lot of people getting into gamedev say

flat gazelle Sep 19, 2018, 9:51 PM

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Making games != Playing games

hybrid phoenix Sep 19, 2018, 9:51 PM

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And they burn through that enthusiasm really quickly when they figure out that making games sucks compared to playing them for most people

flat gazelle Sep 19, 2018, 9:52 PM

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Making them is much more fun

acoustic zealot Sep 19, 2018, 9:52 PM

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^

hybrid phoenix Sep 19, 2018, 9:52 PM

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Agreed

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Most passionate gamers don't

fervent pendant Sep 19, 2018, 9:54 PM

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I figured the stress would be there, but honestly what job doesn't give you stress regardless if it's more or less. Yes, you're right a lot of people do say "I love video games." But for me, I've worked on three small projects all by myself and I know what it's like getting frustrated making something and putting it together. It's not as fun as playing it, but i kinda enjoy it.

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 9:55 PM

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Other than that, tip #1 will be hang out with cool people and always show & tell

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Show your projects, make more personal projects, thrive on feedback and love from others

fervent pendant Sep 19, 2018, 9:56 PM

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I live in Florida and I really can't find people who share the passion

flat gazelle Sep 19, 2018, 9:56 PM

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You are on a discord full of em

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 9:56 PM

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There are plenty of cool people in the world who will at very least give you tips, but some of them might also hire you for your first job

fervent pendant Sep 19, 2018, 9:57 PM

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Yeah I know, but I understood that statement being said as "Hang out with people in person"

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 9:57 PM

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You can be social through the internets

fervent pendant Sep 19, 2018, 9:57 PM

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I can try, lol

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 9:57 PM

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Hanging out in person is better, but you will find more people online

fervent pendant Sep 19, 2018, 9:58 PM

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I figured, everyone is online and no one really does anything in person anymore

hybrid phoenix Sep 19, 2018, 9:59 PM

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There's plenty of local and semi-local gamedev groups

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 9:59 PM

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I find local interest groups to be generally useless

hybrid phoenix Sep 19, 2018, 9:59 PM

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I'm in a Dutch gamedev group which does regular meetings, which are pretty popular

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 9:59 PM

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But that's just my subjective opinion based on specific experience I had

hybrid phoenix Sep 19, 2018, 10:00 PM

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You need something run by an organization, rather than just a random group of people

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I know that in Switzerland, for instance, there's a few people pushing very hard to unify the games industry there, and they're doing regular meetings there as well

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 10:00 PM

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I would join interest groups for this and that, but it never ended in anything constructive

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But it's probably cause I was interested in different things

fervent pendant Sep 19, 2018, 10:01 PM

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Interesting

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 10:01 PM

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In retrospect, maybe local hackerspace wasn't the right crowd who'd be interested in writing rocket guidance software for fun

hybrid phoenix Sep 19, 2018, 10:01 PM

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😛

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 10:02 PM

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Like, I just wanna find a community of engineers who have fun engineering (for fun)

fervent pendant Sep 19, 2018, 10:02 PM

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Ok, well another question. How would I make a portfolio?

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Do I need a website, orrr??

solemn lantern Sep 19, 2018, 10:03 PM

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if you do art stuff, use artstation

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if you do code stuff, use github

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those are the general goto's

fickle hatch Sep 19, 2018, 10:03 PM

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Visual things -> website of any sort, code -> github, everything else -> downloadable pdf

fervent pendant Sep 19, 2018, 10:04 PM

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I do no coding, so github is out the window. lol

flat gazelle Sep 19, 2018, 10:05 PM

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If you do moving stuff, use vimeo or youtube. Don't send files in weird codecs or link me to strange streamingstires

fervent pendant Sep 19, 2018, 10:07 PM

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My game dev YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWJFcdXJ2bnb7n9eDr9KJXg

YouTube

Red Feather

Hello, Red Feather is an independent Videogame Developer YouTube Channel. This channel was created to showcase the skills and imagination of the team. So far...

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So twitter isn't a good place to post game screenshots as a portfolio or?

flat gazelle Sep 19, 2018, 10:09 PM

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I barely use twitter. If I got a twitterlink with your application I'd probably move on to the next.

fervent pendant Sep 19, 2018, 10:09 PM

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Got it

flat gazelle Sep 19, 2018, 10:10 PM

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Use twitter to build a network/following, but it's not a place for portfolios.

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Your portfolio should ONLY be your very best work.

fervent pendant Sep 19, 2018, 10:27 PM

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thank you all

vernal kraken Sep 20, 2018, 8:23 AM

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@hybrid phoenix do you have a name/link of that meetup group in switzerland around?

hybrid phoenix Sep 20, 2018, 8:38 AM

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Not off the top of my head, I'll ask my friend

vernal kraken Sep 20, 2018, 8:52 AM

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thanks!

vivid pivot Sep 20, 2018, 4:05 PM

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@hybrid phoenix Do you have the name of the Dutch meetup or something so I can check if I can join?

hybrid phoenix Sep 20, 2018, 5:29 PM

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Dutch Game Garden's lunches

vivid pivot Sep 20, 2018, 6:17 PM

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Are those free to join?

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I thought people should be invited or something

crystal canopy Sep 20, 2018, 6:41 PM

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@fervent pendant if you're an artist look up the DiNusty Empire, not only is it a good community of artists in games, it's also s good resource and portfolio critique etc. The guy that runs it works for Ubisoft, does live stream videos all the time including portfolio reviews or just doing 3D stuff.

Also side note: I don't find working in game development stressful and I much prefer making games to playing them

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The dinusty Empire community has thousands of people involved, a lot of professionals but also total noobs so it's pretty awesome

hybrid phoenix Sep 20, 2018, 7:11 PM

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Oh yeah I did actually apply @vivid pivot

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But just give it a shot!

honest cipher Sep 20, 2018, 7:14 PM

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@hybrid phoenix seems ill go to work in amsterdam. You from there?

vivid pivot Sep 20, 2018, 7:26 PM

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Will do 😃

hybrid phoenix Sep 21, 2018, 5:21 AM

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@honest cipher Nah, other side of the country. That said, the other side of the country is about an hour and a half away from here 😝

hybrid phoenix Sep 21, 2018, 7:35 AM

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So that's not that bad, really

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So why do people never give a payment range in #looking-for-talent

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It'd save everyone a lot of wasted time if they did

honest cipher Sep 21, 2018, 8:25 AM

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becouse you want to pay the least amount possible

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@hybrid phoenix . So you dont put a salary range, and better go with a salary/money discussion, wich allows you to underball almost every time

hybrid phoenix Sep 21, 2018, 8:26 AM

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I suppose

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A really rough target would be neat though

patent mountain Sep 22, 2018, 3:18 AM

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@fervent pendant where do you live in florida, im in winter garden

honest cipher Sep 22, 2018, 8:19 AM

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man, fuck airbnb

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the rent everywhere has balooned stupidly hard

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(in cities)

fading yoke Sep 22, 2018, 8:55 AM

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I was watching a video yesterday about why the slums in Mumbai, India, exist when there are so many empty apartments all over the city. A point they made that resonated with me was that apartments and houses are not dwellings or places that you live. They are investment vehicles.

hybrid phoenix Sep 22, 2018, 8:55 AM

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You looking in Amsterdam? @honest cipher

fading yoke Sep 22, 2018, 8:55 AM

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So if you look at it from that perspective, it makes total sense that places like San Francisco and NYC have insanely high rent prices

honest cipher Sep 22, 2018, 8:55 AM

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they are indeed investment

fading yoke Sep 22, 2018, 8:55 AM

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And AirBNB helps to make apartments everywhere more into investments rather than homes

vivid pivot Sep 22, 2018, 8:55 AM

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Might be a #lounge thing? 😉

honest cipher Sep 22, 2018, 8:56 AM

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source: my family literally lives from good housing investments

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airbnb really should be controlled

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im ok with it existing

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but its just extremelly harmful for everyone but the guys renting

hybrid phoenix Sep 22, 2018, 8:56 AM

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We're starting to regulate it here

honest cipher Sep 22, 2018, 8:57 AM

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beetween tax and housing, i can earn more cash freelancing in 2-3 months than working for pubg for a year

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ridiculous

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and its a high salary

spice dagger Sep 22, 2018, 9:02 AM

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You work on PUBG @honest cipher ?

honest cipher Sep 22, 2018, 9:03 AM

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im going to, yes

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in nobember

spice dagger Sep 22, 2018, 9:03 AM

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In what capacity?

honest cipher Sep 22, 2018, 9:03 AM

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?

spice dagger Sep 22, 2018, 9:03 AM

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If you dont mind me asking 😃

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Job

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Whats your job

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For them

honest cipher Sep 22, 2018, 9:04 AM

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gameplay programmer

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they want people to implement new game modes and stuff

hybrid phoenix Sep 22, 2018, 9:04 AM

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Is that what you'll be going to Amsterdam for? 👀

spice dagger Sep 22, 2018, 9:04 AM

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Awesome

hybrid phoenix Sep 22, 2018, 9:04 AM

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Or is that off again

honest cipher Sep 22, 2018, 9:04 AM

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its a bigger salary than normal gameplay programmers becouse they wanted really good multiplayer knowledge + C++

hybrid phoenix Sep 22, 2018, 9:04 AM

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Congrats 😬

honest cipher Sep 22, 2018, 9:05 AM

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for comparaison, its 3 times what i was offered at Tequila Games

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for a similar-ish position

fading yoke Sep 22, 2018, 9:18 AM

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I applied to Blue Hole a few times this past year and I live here in Seoul, within commuting distance from their headquarters. No response each time.

neat jackal Sep 22, 2018, 9:52 AM

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@honest cipher Just catching up on the convo, if you're looking for dev meetups in Amsterdam try the Game Dev Meetup in A-Lab, it's always a ton of fun

honest cipher Sep 22, 2018, 9:52 AM

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fine as long as you dont speak dutch XD

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couse i only know english

remote saffron Sep 22, 2018, 9:55 AM

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learn some german and mix the two

neat jackal Sep 22, 2018, 9:55 AM

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Yep, usually start with one or two presentations showing off some games (in English), and afterwards it's just a fun hangout, everyone speaks English

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Just be sure to register through meetup.com since there is limited space

honest cipher Sep 22, 2018, 9:57 AM

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when is it? ill go there in nobember

neat jackal Sep 22, 2018, 9:58 AM

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It's usually once every month to two months, at the end of the day, with food n drinks provided

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You can find info on it here https://www.meetup.com/indie-game-show-and-tell/ @honest cipher

Meetup

Indie Game Show & Tell (Amsterdam, Netherlands)

Indie Game Show & Tell is an informal meetup where we invite devs to speak about designing, building, and marketing indie games. Everybody who builds or works on games is welcome to attend and everyon

honest cipher Sep 22, 2018, 10:01 AM

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thats similar to a meetup i go in spain

vivid pivot Sep 22, 2018, 10:07 AM

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Looks interesting, might join that as well

fading yoke Sep 22, 2018, 1:12 PM

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They have one of those in Seoul, but I've been too flaky about attending even though I want to go in general

wheat hinge Sep 23, 2018, 7:11 PM

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@honest cipher congrats dude! 😄

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it's great to see someone I worked with moving on to pubg. 😄

honest cipher Sep 23, 2018, 7:12 PM

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@wheat hinge another MP shooter lol

wheat hinge Sep 23, 2018, 7:12 PM

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lol yeah I mean I just checked up on HGA and I think they are finally, once and for all dead.

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we will see though they have a weird way of bouncing back.

honest cipher Sep 23, 2018, 7:13 PM

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damn shame

wheat hinge Sep 23, 2018, 7:13 PM

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but yeah MP shooters seem to always be big

honest cipher Sep 23, 2018, 7:13 PM

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im still sad i couldnt get to finish those bots

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left a half-done work

wheat hinge Sep 23, 2018, 7:13 PM

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yeah those bots were shaping up

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jump sets still needed to get handled better man I wish design had nailed those better

honest cipher Sep 23, 2018, 7:14 PM

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right now im so much more experienced than back then. I could have solved a lot of issues HGA had if i knew what i know today

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plus doing the bots in a 3rd of the time

wheat hinge Sep 23, 2018, 7:15 PM

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yeah same 😄 I was even trying to talk to matt still and offer some advice like a year or two back.

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its sad it never got to see it's full potential and that it was mismanaged so... roughly and with very little transparency.

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but yeah it sounds like it should be great coming in soon. Also I went to amsterdam in 2016, its a very very nice city.

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(I recommend the vondelpark coffee house)

wispy spoke Sep 24, 2018, 4:54 PM

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Hey guys, is it weird to not want to work in the games industry after spending years of education on it? I'm not entirely sure if I want to move and work crazy hours

ashen lynx Sep 24, 2018, 5:00 PM

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Not weird at all. Might be a bit disappointing, but not weird.

dreamy jacinth Sep 24, 2018, 5:20 PM

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Considering the current state of affairs (mismanagement, layoffs, lack of compensation for crunch, etc) its not weird at all. I have an aversion to working for AAA because they don't focus on game development in most cases, but mostly the financial bottom line. Which is important, granted, but when they do that by removing gameplay or increasing grinds so they can sell the player on microtransactions, it gets my back up. So many games have been ruined by this. The worst example is FIFA and UFC from EA. UFC is figuratively a "pay-per-punch" game. And it's full price. That sickens me as a gamer and a dev.

vivid pivot Sep 24, 2018, 5:24 PM

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Do keep in mind that there are of course also jobs that do not have insane hours etc or you could go indie 😉

wispy spoke Sep 24, 2018, 5:27 PM

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Yeah, currently the most compelling path to me seems to get a 9-5 web dev job and save money for going indie

flat gazelle Sep 24, 2018, 5:36 PM

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Yep, Going indie is the easy life. Yessirreee

cold tiger Sep 24, 2018, 6:41 PM

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Just out of sheer curiosity is it pretty normal in the games industry to work on 1 game and then move studios? I feel like a lot of the top guys I follow on Artstation seem to move studios after a large AAA release.

lilac walrus Sep 24, 2018, 6:43 PM

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it's not unusual

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a lot of studios follow boom and bust production models much like Hollywood productions

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you only need a handful of people at the beginning of a project, and you often need a very large number towards the end to assemble content

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means a lot of people are redundant once a project is completed and a game studio's biggest overhead by a long shot is salaries

vivid pivot Sep 24, 2018, 6:48 PM

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Yeah most studios should streamline it like disney etc to start another project during the first project, but thats hard to do regarding budget etc

lilac walrus Sep 24, 2018, 6:49 PM

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not just budget, but also the fact that pre-production isn't an exact science

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it's really, really hard to ensure that there's a new project for people to move on when the time comes

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then there's other complications, like the first project overrunning and taking 6+ more months to develop, hehe

vivid pivot Sep 24, 2018, 6:52 PM

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haha estimation, hardest task there is 😛

lilac walrus Sep 24, 2018, 6:57 PM

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you can't really estimate it, that's the real problem

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if you're at the stage where you're not sure what you're building, how can you know how long it's going to take you to work that out?

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hehe

ashen lynx Sep 24, 2018, 6:58 PM

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There is definitely no feeling that your job is "permanent".

flat gazelle Sep 24, 2018, 7:43 PM

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There might be some movement after projects, but I'd say it's nowhere near "normal" to hop after each project.

plucky hatch Sep 24, 2018, 9:29 PM

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I’ll share a bit of background as I have worked for a AAA studio (Santa Monica Studio/Sony Functional Test Services). I worked on God of War and Spider-Man. Although some of these things have been pointed out before, they are important. Depending on where you want to go in the industry, QA and strong art portfolios seem to be solid entry points. You can expect to work much harder, longer hours at a game studio than a different type of software development company, not always so, but many times this is the case. At Sony, 70-80 hours towards crunch was normal. Other companies insist on healthy work-life balance. Employee retention always varies by studio. Some big studios lay off immediately after project submission, others like CD Project Red, are as loyal to their employees as their employees are to them. It really depends on the company.

fickle hatch Sep 24, 2018, 9:37 PM

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It's kind of interesting how "going indie" always felt like a pretty tough task (from my experience following through programming communities)

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I missed the point where doing indie full time became a feasible thing to do

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Was it the success of some singular indie games that created this idea that "going indie" is a feasible strategy?

plucky hatch Sep 24, 2018, 9:40 PM

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I think that going indie with little to no business experience is very risky. Unfortunately there have been some pretty serious stories of indie burnout. The cold truth is lack of funds and time crunches can be incredibly stressful and detrimental to ones health. Taking your time as a side project is much safer than throwing all of your financial eggs in one basket. Just have fun building something and release it when you are ready. If it sells well, awesome, if not learn from it and move on to the next project.

pliant ridge Sep 24, 2018, 9:41 PM

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Newbie here but can we expect to consistently paid less (even at giants like Blizzard or Ubisoft) for the same job title (e.g. designer or software engineer)? If I was both hard-working and lucky enough to get into a healthy gamedev company, it's painful to know I could be earning 50-100% more for a similar job in another industry. That's a big reason why I feel like I can only make games in my spare time.

plucky hatch Sep 24, 2018, 9:44 PM

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@pliant ridge It depends on the studio, but yes, it is generally accepted that the entry level pay for game dev related work is lower than similar industries, but this is not always the case. It comes down to your finances that you need to be a responsible adult vs your passions.

pliant ridge Sep 24, 2018, 9:48 PM

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Thank you, do you know what makes those exceptions? And yeah, at this point I feel I need to sacrifice quite a bit of lifestyle to be in game dev, but I'd still have a roof and something I love to do.

fickle hatch Sep 24, 2018, 9:48 PM

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I think you don't "go indie", you can start a small company

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Sure, "indie" is a common name for a small company that does not have a publisher

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But in modern context, it feels like saying "start a small company" is more appropriate

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You could call our company "indie", but I don't consider us "indie" (and we are not videogame developers, we just happen to have a project that has a prominent videogame version)

plucky hatch Sep 24, 2018, 9:51 PM

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@pliant ridge No problem, it’s kind of a mixed bag. The “indie/startup culture” studios seems to be better about this. Psyonix is a great example. It is a relatively small studio with huge profit margins, but they still treat their employees like family.

fickle hatch Sep 24, 2018, 9:51 PM

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Not in the same sense as "going indie". We didn't decide to "go indie", we just started a company around this project like everyone else did in their time

pliant ridge Sep 24, 2018, 9:52 PM

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That's the dream

plucky hatch Sep 24, 2018, 9:54 PM

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@pliant ridge This also applies to non gaming companies. I worked for Uber’s research and development team. The company is still run with a startup like culture. Uber has more money than they know what to do with, but they are incredibly generous to their employees and their families.

fickle hatch Sep 24, 2018, 9:55 PM

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The previous company I worked at was basically a startup too, in every worst sense of the word

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With all the favorite classics like the big boss who doesn't listen to any good advice

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And always chasing demo's with half-finished product, pretending like we have functionality we don't

pliant ridge Sep 24, 2018, 9:55 PM

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Wowza, two very conflicting experiences. I love it.

fickle hatch Sep 24, 2018, 9:55 PM

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Instead of working onthat functionality

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It was a good company where employees were taken care of, but the big boss's constant insistence on doing demo's instead of real development was really annoying

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To give some context, we were working on a military recon UAV, about 9-10 ft wingspan

pliant ridge Sep 24, 2018, 9:56 PM

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I actually work as a designer at a startup who essentially underpays everyone, but we're all really flexible and nice to each other. So I'm somewhere in the middle.

fickle hatch Sep 24, 2018, 9:56 PM

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So "going to demo" instead of developing the UAV meant that we ended up crashing a lot and burning real money and technical resources for no good reason

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Now I can proudly say that I've designed a control system that accepted major updates in-the-air, but I shouldn't have been needed to do things I did in the first place

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And all my attempts to organize a better work process ended up being limited to my immediate working environment

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I was the only guy writing reports and preserving all the data about test flights and other aspects 😐

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I wrote new image transmission code overnight when we had 1 day during which I had nothing better to do (no high priority tasks), a random fluke in the broken work process of that company

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And we rode on that code till the end of the company hurr

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I never got the same chance to rewrite that code and fix some conceptual issues (like being able to send only 1 picture at a time)

pliant ridge Sep 24, 2018, 10:00 PM

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@plucky hatch so I think my best bet here is to research startup-like companies that both pay/treat you well and develop games... How do you find those? I've never heard of them before. Maybe because I don't have access to their workplace culture? Maybe just need to Google more?

fickle hatch Sep 24, 2018, 10:01 PM

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A relevant advice here is to hang out with cool people (this server has a ton of cool people)

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Idk, I always found jobs/contacts/things I needed through friends and people I know

plucky hatch Sep 24, 2018, 10:04 PM

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It’s also important to accept realities that your favorite company may not be what is best. It’s about thinking past the fact that it is your favorite studio and do what is best for your professional career. I absolutely love Rockstar’s games. I recently had a chance to interview with Rockstar in New York. It was a incredibly stressful 10 hours of interviewing which I expected. But it felt cold and distant, not like a group of happy people. Perhaps that is not the reality, but I perceived it that way. I realized that sometimes it’s better to just play their games and find the best culture fit somewhere else.

fickle hatch Sep 24, 2018, 10:05 PM

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I think you're right in your feeling about what goes on inside that company. I have no experience with modern rockstar, but my dream company died with DMA Design

plucky hatch Sep 24, 2018, 10:06 PM

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I feel like things changed when Leslie Benzies left Rockstar. But it’s a huge company that is Cult level in their degree of secrecy, so it is hard to say.

fickle hatch Sep 24, 2018, 10:07 PM

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For me, there was a clear line when DMA Design became Rockstar North - something changed in the image of the company, something changed about the community, it became a huge company like many others

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I remember all the random stuff and content that DMA Design shared for GTA2 and GTA3...

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They were still secretive, but they interacted with community a lot, released a lot of in-dev materials and so on

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"a lot" it was just a handful of screenshots, but there was a feeling of two-way communication to some extent

plucky hatch Sep 24, 2018, 10:07 PM

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DMA was the best. Lemmings on DOS, ah the memories...

fickle hatch Sep 24, 2018, 10:08 PM

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I started with GTA: London 😄

winged fable Sep 25, 2018, 4:22 PM

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Hey all, anyone got experience with architectural visualization? I'm having a hard time pricing a job I've been commissioned to do

dense heath Sep 25, 2018, 5:24 PM

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@winged fable would try in #aec-visualization

winged fable Sep 25, 2018, 6:25 PM

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good idea thank!

knotty iron Sep 26, 2018, 12:06 PM

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I’m going to a study visit to a Game incubator in my city tomorrow, I’ve a few questions prepared but I was thinking if there is some previous experience on here that have gone throw something similar. Was there a question you would have wanted to know the answer to? but didn’t know to ask for when you started out as a Indie developer? (I’m not a student, working on my own.)

plucky hatch Sep 26, 2018, 7:47 PM

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Has anyone else here interviewed with EA somewhat recently?

copper salmon Sep 27, 2018, 1:08 AM

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what is a game incubator? o_O

fickle hatch Sep 27, 2018, 1:38 AM

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An incubator is a group of several investors who pool their money together and fund small projects with interest to turn them into full companies

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@knotty iron I have experience with a non-gamedev incubator if that's any relevant (we went through an incubator with ESA)

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It all boiled down to "write a business plan" and "attend our events'

serene maple Sep 27, 2018, 5:28 AM

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Hey guys, new to programming and just got recommended to this server. I have been playing games all of my life and would really love to start making them, I have a few questions that if some of you guys could answer I would appreciate it.

I am looking to become a gameplay programmer, and am looking at a school to go to that teaches you everything about gameplay programming. It is very expensive but i'm not sure if it is worth it. IF you graduate you will recieve;
Diploma of Digital and Interactive Games
Advanced Diploma of Professional Game Development
I am not sure if it is worth it to spend 40k and 2 years learning there or just self teach.

2.. If I was to self teach, what would be the best way to learn? I am watching some playlists on youtube that go over the basics of C++. But once I learn the basics where would I go to start expanding my knowledge?

Thats all I can really think of right now guys, you guys can DM me to talk to me about the answers so it doesn't clog up the channel. Thanks for your time. 😄

rough dirge Sep 27, 2018, 7:30 AM

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@serene maple Self teach, experience looks way better than a diploma

hybrid phoenix Sep 27, 2018, 8:24 AM

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For programmers everyone agrees, that if you get a degree, you should get a programming-specific one

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So go and do something along the lines of Computer Science or Artificial Intelligence

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It's valued more by the industry and is generally quite a bit more useful overall than all those gamedev degrees

lilac walrus Sep 27, 2018, 12:03 PM

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you'll not get much out of a game diploma anyway - thing is, that in order to program games, you still need to learn how to program - and software engineering is already a heavy three year course

regal thistle Sep 27, 2018, 12:50 PM

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Hi Guys, I was wondering if someone could give me some advice. I am a composer/sound engineer by trade. I've been working in the music industry for the last 3 years after graduating. Without wanting to blow my own trumpet too much I've worked on some Hollywood films as well as will Major Label artists. So I have some decent accolades. However, I am looking to transition into game audio. I've learnt how to use Wwise and FMOD Middleware and UE4 Sound implementation. I was wondering if someone could give me some advice regarding a portfolio. I was initially doing cutscenes when applying to stuff, however I'm being told implementation is something I have to demonstrate. I'm currently working on a few things like Mods etc. Will that be enough? should I try to get involved in a indie game from concept to release? Thanks for anyone's help!

fickle hatch Sep 27, 2018, 10:52 PM

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@regal thistle I would find demonstrable experience of using FMOD Studio and the equivalents (UE4 sound system) very valuable, something that shows that you can make complex sounds that take several parameter inputs, have them tie-in with the engine. Complex interactive sounds, dynamic music system, complex scenes with multiple different reverberation types and so on

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We needed a sound engineer at some point, so it's just the stuff that we found relevant

finite osprey Sep 28, 2018, 12:46 AM

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I need some career advice. My studio is about to have massive layoffs on a definite date, described as "when the money runs out". My leads have said that I would survive, but I do not trust them as they have lied to me before. I also don't want to work here any more, due to the above reasons and others.

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I am tempted to put in my letter of resignation, to end one week after layoffs occur.

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So if they intend to keep me they would need stronger proof. And if not then at least I made a stand.

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Nobody expectes any severance, so that's not at risk.

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After thinking about it, if I do resign they'll probably drum up a huge amount of uninportant Exit Work for me to do. I would be better off not saying anything.

barren lotus Sep 28, 2018, 3:49 AM

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If in the US when you resign you generally can't collect unemployment.

Just start looking for other opportunities because you're unhappy there, if you get laid off you might get severance but at least you can get unemployment, if you're not laid off then you still have a job / benefits while you search for something new.

hybrid phoenix Sep 28, 2018, 7:18 AM

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^

regal thistle Sep 28, 2018, 10:47 AM

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Hi @fickle hatch ! Thanks so much for the feedback! That seems to be the general consensus of what I've heard. I guess it's a question of really working hard to get something together that demonstrates you can do all of that. Thanks for the advice!

fickle hatch Sep 28, 2018, 10:48 AM

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Good luck in your pursuit!

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You can make a simple demo where you just fly around and listen to sounds

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That are configured in complex ways. Not sure if that'd be useful as part of a portfolio, but you could record videos from it to include in the portfolio

daring cipher Sep 29, 2018, 6:32 PM

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@serene maple Teaching yourself isnt that ez as @rough dirge suggested. It only works if you have the right kind of drive and time to actually do it. Most youngster have trouble shifting from school behaviour to self teaching so its never a bad choice to get into any kind of school to keep the learning flow steady.

plucky hatch Sep 30, 2018, 6:40 AM

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someone mentioned diplomas before, from what I have been told.. a diploma is great for any entry level job at a company handling simulation. If youre looking for game industry jobs, they will want experience.

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this is because alarge company has the resources to train you for what company specific thing they need you to do, and a game company that only produces games will need you to take on a work load and youll need to do it yourself, maybe if its a large EA studio than you will have managers who will help you but if its a small five man studio youll have to know your stuff

rough dirge Sep 30, 2018, 5:06 PM

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I'm sorry guys but most diplomas are the next level up from Ponzi schemes

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The people who offer them make their money from students paying exorbitant fees; lure them in with dreams and then give them nothing to be hired off of

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The only reason I would ever partake in a course like that would be to meet other people interested in similar things to create stuff with

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personally i don't think that's worth paying 20 or so grand a year

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You'd be far better using that kind of cash to actually create a decent game or work with others to do that and then put it in your portfolio. I find it so ironic that the same people who will scoff at rev share or volunteer work will shell out money to an institution like full sail to get a worthless diploma.

If you're hell bent on getting some qualification, go study software engineering or comp sci or ask an artist to mentor you/ do workshops that teach you applicable skills.

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@daring cipher

Also, if you don't have the time or drive, I don't see how enrolling in a constant course that makes you get at least a part time job to cover it is a smart idea

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Sorry for the rant; just hate seeing people get suckered into this shit

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I'm also a bit wasted so take my sardonic tone with an ounce of salt

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no pun intended

steel creek Sep 30, 2018, 8:04 PM

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While I agree places like Full Sail might not be the proper place to get a diploma having a diploma is nothing to scoff at

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And having a diploma is not some Ponzi scheme again maybe in a technical trade school

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And while I see your analogy in Rev Share work vs going to school, those aren't really comparative

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If you sign up for a school you have an expectation of delivery that you can sue over and bring to a legal Court

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Given that you weren't a lazy ass and didn't depend on the school to just hand you everything

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With something like Revenue share you have zero recourse in anything

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Unless you somehow magically got to sign a contract that you can enforce legally

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I have yet to see anyone offer rev-share with a contract. Typically they just pay you under contract or they just pay you

bitter mulch Sep 30, 2018, 8:27 PM

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anyone intrested in chatting about a game idea i have?, a Fantasy Boardgame World based on a boardgame i puplished allmost 10 years ago. if you are, hit me with a dm , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh3ZlIA4fcg

YouTube

PIPARTBWA

Flakk - Kapphlaupið að forna hliðinu

▶ Play video

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 8:38 PM

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I'm kind of frustrated that everytime someone in this channel mentions a degree the channel gets flooded with people complaining that it's a bad idea/unnecessary/"a ponzi scheme"/self-taught is better/a money drain/etc.

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I don't know how it is in other countries, but from what I've heard in some places this is definitely the case. However for me (I'm from the Netherlands) it was definitely nothing like that. To give some backstory, I dropped out of highschool at 17, but because by law you have to go to some form of schooling until you're older (as long as you don't have a degree) I decided to go to college to get a game development degree. The price was definitely not the "20 or so grand a year" mentioned earlier today, in fact it was less than 2k a year, which even if that seems like too much money for a kid starting their carreer is easily covered by the government-run financial student aid available for every student. I already had some experience, but most hadn't done anything game dev related yet, and it really took them from 0 to in some cases AAA game dev skills. Apart from learning lots on how to make games, it also gave most people a lot of experience (we basically went from one project to the next, learning by doing) so there is some work at the end to start a portfolio, plus there is a year long (in most cases paid) internship which means connections to people in the industry and for some even a job offer after getting their degree. Then there's also the fact most of us have kept in contact, and it's been a great way to get some networking in the industry going, not only have I later on worked with/hired people I met at college, I also have been invited by friends to lots of other networking events n such.

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Now I know not everywhere it's this good, but it really annoys me how everyone, no matter who they are, where they're from, and what their background with gamedev is, always gets the "don't get a degree, it's a waste" advice. Sure in some cases it's the right advice, but there's also cases where it most definitely isn't the right advice. Really wish people would stop hating on it so much. Sorry for the rant, really rubs me the wrong way sometimes...

solemn lantern Sep 30, 2018, 8:38 PM

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really just do whatever you think is most enjoyable

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you only get to live once so being bord out of yor mind for large parts of it probably isnt how you want to live it

digital gate Sep 30, 2018, 8:40 PM

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Then you've got the other end where you pay american uni rates and the senior project is a terrible flash game that wouldn't see 20 ratings on newgrounds

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¯_(ツ)_/¯

hybrid phoenix Sep 30, 2018, 8:41 PM

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@neat jackal As another Dutchy, I can tell you this

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If everyone here was from here, we'd have this a discussion a lot less frequently

digital gate Sep 30, 2018, 8:41 PM

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For me I'm not sure going to a game school would have been a good option, but given how far I've gotten without it, I definitely do sometimes wonder how much further I'd be with it.

hybrid phoenix Sep 30, 2018, 8:41 PM

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Here, schools are alright and don't cost a fortune

digital gate Sep 30, 2018, 8:42 PM

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Its just. 'murican uni rates

hybrid phoenix Sep 30, 2018, 8:42 PM

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I'm probably just as fine without my gamedev school as with

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So even here, it's a question whether it's worht it

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Not a ponzi-scheme, for sure, but for many people, still not worth it

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If you then look at other countries where internships are unpaid, school costs a fortunate, the government doesn't support you and the schools suck

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Wellp, in lots of other countries it really is an incredibly bad deal

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 8:44 PM

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Yeah, it definitely depends on where you are, both as in where in the world, as well as where are you in life, what can/can't you do gamedev wise and what do you need to learn

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But I too often just see the same flood of people yelling "no" at degrees, as if they're a bad thing, whereas in reality there's a lot more variables at play that you really need to take into account when giving advice like it

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And I know too many people who get paid more because of the degree/get hired by a non-tech-savvy HR person who sees the degree on a CV and goes "Oh must be better than this other person without the degree"

hybrid phoenix Sep 30, 2018, 8:47 PM

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The truth of the matter is that in most cases degrees aren't that good of a bet

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Especially when compared to the alternatives

digital gate Sep 30, 2018, 8:47 PM

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I mean if I could get one at 2k a year I'd be enrolled

bitter mulch Sep 30, 2018, 8:48 PM

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if u want work as game dev, im pretty sure school wont matter, only your portfolio to show what you can do

hybrid phoenix Sep 30, 2018, 8:49 PM

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@neat jackal It's also worth noting that our schools have a lot more government-based QA than most other countries

solemn lantern Sep 30, 2018, 8:49 PM

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portfolio is a big part of getting hired, but you can usually get connections through going to uni which can also help

bitter mulch Sep 30, 2018, 8:49 PM

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school wont hurt , maby your wallet

delicate apex Sep 30, 2018, 8:54 PM

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tho, some schools seem to be under the illusion that students just want the piece of paper and that's all

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 8:56 PM

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I mean, you say in most cases they aren't a good bet, but keep in mind this: a ton of people want to go into game development because "playing games is fun". When I went to college, even though I already knew some game dev (my father is a programmer and taught me when I was younger), pretty much everyone there had never done anything game dev related before. Had they chosen not to go to college and get a degree, they'd have probably needed a lot more time to learn everything. If you look at it that way, minimum wage (in NL) is 1500 a month. If college costs under 2k a year, even without any governmental financial aid, you'd already have it covered by 2 months working per year. Now if you were to spend your own time learning it, where you can't ask anyone questions, work together, no deadlines, etc., for a lot of people they'd need a lot longer than a year fulltime learning. If we take the same minimum wage, 1500 * 12 = 18k. You'd spend at least 18K at learning instead of the 2K over a couple years. So price isn't really a valid argument, unless you live in a country with higher rates, but then again lots of people travel to different cities/countries for college so that would also be an option depending on the person.

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As far as portfolio goes, in our case we worked project to project, all had to be shippable games (and in some cases were shipped), which really creates a great portfolio already. Plus internships, which can often be the cause of some great portfolio materials for shipped games (sometimes even more well-known/successful titles), and can even land you a job after the internship. Even if neither applies to you, you'll probably be doing something during that school period, whether as projects/assignments, or as personal projects to try things out, which can all go into a portfolio.

solemn lantern Sep 30, 2018, 9:00 PM

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there are definetly students out there that do just want the piece of paper

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 9:00 PM

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I think it's also partly that this platform is just more likely to have self-taught developers on it, but I think a lot of times when someone in here asks for advice people greatly underestimate the power of getting a degree, and how many people it actually can help.

solemn lantern Sep 30, 2018, 9:00 PM

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i know a few people like that

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 9:01 PM

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I'll be the first to admit, I was one of them, as mentioned. That doesn't take away from the fact it is a good thing to get a degree in game development.

mental drum Sep 30, 2018, 9:03 PM

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wow the biggest conversations per msg I ever seen over here

digital gate Sep 30, 2018, 9:03 PM

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So you should also factor the wage-time with the college path.

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 9:04 PM

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I also think that with a discord server like this one, focused very much on developers helping each other out, it's a great tool to self-teach game development and probably a lot if not most of the users in this server are here for that very reason. Thus, it created sort of an echo chamber of success stories of people who didn't go the traditional way of getting a degree, and makes it seem less needed. Just saying that in a lot of cases, the opposite can also be true, and that doesn't really get reflected anymore when someone asks because of it.

digital gate Sep 30, 2018, 9:04 PM

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Doesn't invalidate your point, though, which I understand. It probably makes your argument stronger if you had data for how much longer it is to not go to the games school.

delicate apex Sep 30, 2018, 9:05 PM

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I would say +1 year, googling everything takes time

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 9:05 PM

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Thats somewhat my point though, how long that would take depends entirely on the person

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But my estimate would be at least 1 year of fulltime learning to really get to the same level as someone with a good game dev degree

digital gate Sep 30, 2018, 9:06 PM

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Yeah but you still lose that in opportunity cost (or at least part of it). School takes time away from work just as much as googling.

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 9:07 PM

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Yes, but unlike googling you're creating a network at school, doing internships/meeting people from the industry, and have people right there with whom you can sit down and really ask anything in detail, discuss how to do things, etc.

delicate apex Sep 30, 2018, 9:07 PM

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well, that's not 100% true. you can still participate in events and gatherings even if you're self-studying

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 9:08 PM

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It's the same thing as going "you don't need to send your kid to school, because maths/english/biology/etc. can be googled" yes it can, but that's not why you go to school, you go there because you have social interactions, make friends, have help learning things, learn from someone who's an expert in a field.

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Ofcourse that's a more extreme version, but it breaks down into the same things

delicate apex Sep 30, 2018, 9:09 PM

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well, that's pretty much the whole grasp of schools business model; have all the required information available in one place

bitter mulch Sep 30, 2018, 9:12 PM

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im looking for someone to make a game with me, so i joined this server >) anyone looking for a side project?

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 9:13 PM

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Try #looking-for-talent

bitter mulch Sep 30, 2018, 9:14 PM

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cant chat in there, allso this is just an idea, if someone would like to know more dm me, i have all art, and concept ready

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not serius atm

solemn lantern Sep 30, 2018, 9:15 PM

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you're not supposed to chat in there

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check the pinned messages and use the bot

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@bitter mulch

bitter mulch Sep 30, 2018, 9:16 PM

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well this cannels info kinda suggest to ask bout these things here

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maby tell me what you think of basics of the idea

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middle of a game ill throw it in here later

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multiplayer boardgame world

digital gate Sep 30, 2018, 9:19 PM

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it really doesn't suggest taht

bitter mulch Sep 30, 2018, 9:19 PM

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oh

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i read the whole thing, points to looking for talent haha

digital gate Sep 30, 2018, 9:20 PM

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#lounge

bitter mulch Sep 30, 2018, 9:20 PM

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ye im in the wrong place, sorry

remote saffron Sep 30, 2018, 9:26 PM

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hard to tell if degree is good or not, because it really depends on the person imo
at the end of the day you have to learn to learn on your own, because that will be the thing you have to do for the rest of your life
if you need 3-5 years of university for that, go for it
I actually needed 1 year in university to get to that point, but from there doing the rest of university was a pretty bad experience regarding knowledge gain/time efficiency

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but I have to admit that I usually get on the degree is meh train, mainly cause of my own experience with the last few years of my university 😦 I get your point and will try to be more careful about this

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if people would fix secondary school we would not need university tho 😄

delicate apex Sep 30, 2018, 9:30 PM

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in short, I would describe it as "proof of sufficient understanding on industry standard level"

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anything past that is up to you

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 9:48 PM

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I for one, would love to read the background of the people on boths sides of the Degree vs Not argument. It would be interested to see how many years as a professional in the industry they have, time spent in hiring positions. Experience with relocation qualifiers, visa and permit negotiation experience and so on. Wouldn't that make the discussion more interesting and a bit more relevant?

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My position on the matter: Degrees can help for certain positions. They help a lot if you will ever need a visa. They can help you qualify for a relocation. A degree will not help you get either of those things on their own.

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Background: 10 years. Currently hiring internationally. No degree, but I did attend a vocational school for 3d graphics.

lilac walrus Sep 30, 2018, 9:57 PM

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A degree can be useful for a visa, but I don't see what that has to do with relocation, that's just down to the company

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(I have no degree, but have worked all over the place for a bit over 10 years)

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 9:57 PM

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Yes, but several companies have a degree as a requirement for relocation

lilac walrus Sep 30, 2018, 9:57 PM

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that would be their problem, but I've never heard of such a practice

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 9:59 PM

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I've been relocated several times so I'm living proof it's not super common, but it does happen

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 9:59 PM

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Also interesting would be the range of salary - I feel like a lot of people without degree may be making less than a similar qualified person with degree, but who knows how big that difference is these days, I do think it's getting smaller

lilac walrus Sep 30, 2018, 9:59 PM

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salary tends to be whatever you can negotiate

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 9:59 PM

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Agreed

delicate apex Sep 30, 2018, 9:59 PM

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^

lilac walrus Sep 30, 2018, 10:00 PM

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it might make a difference when you're coming in at entry level, but given a couple of years experience it's not really that relevant anymore

delicate apex Sep 30, 2018, 10:00 PM

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and ofc goes without saying "minimum wage yields minimum effort"

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 10:03 PM

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Yeah mostly talking entry level, agreed that later on it's not as relevant

delicate apex Sep 30, 2018, 10:06 PM

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I hate when all the entry level positions are instantly filled from student interns

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that's probably the biggest downside of being self-taught

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 10:07 PM

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Yep, it shouldn't be underestimated. You get to tap into the schools network

delicate apex Sep 30, 2018, 10:08 PM

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I blame to companies for enabling it

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at least keep one open spot for public applications

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 10:11 PM

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That doesn't make sense though - not going to school then blaming companies for hiring someone who did?

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Like, with the intern they've worked with before, they know what they can/can't do, it makes a lot more sense

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 10:12 PM

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I don't think it's very common to restrict internships to certain schools. It's just that if the application comes from a trusted school the applicant has already been screened at least once and has been taught a known set of skills. The student may even have been taught by someone at the company. It just removes a lot of the due diligence needed.

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If a stellar public application comes in, I don't see why it wouldn't be accepted.

delicate apex Sep 30, 2018, 10:13 PM

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^exactly, but they might never find those diamonds in rough if they aren't even looking for

remote saffron Sep 30, 2018, 10:13 PM

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not going to school then blaming companies for hiring someone who did makes perfect sense if you are better than the ones who went to school 🤷

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as it is bad both for the company and for you

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 10:13 PM

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Not looking for? It's not on the company to send in applications that beat all others

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Taking in an intern is a net cost for the company, so they won't be seeking them out.

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If they are, chances are that it's a scummy company that wants stuff done for free.

delicate apex Sep 30, 2018, 10:15 PM

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that's more of a rule than exception at this point, labor laws here enable such behavior perfectly

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 10:16 PM

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The opposite is true here.

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 10:16 PM

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Yeah, in a lot of cases companies will also ask interns to stay/join the company after the internship, which imo is way better than keeping open a spot for someone who's self-taught/applies. Sure someone may apply whose better qualified, but you can't be sure when that better will apply, if at all. With the intern you know what they can do, you know you work well together, and you know they can start sooner. Literally all the upsides are with interns, all the downsides with outside applications. It makes no sense keeping a position open.

lilac walrus Sep 30, 2018, 10:16 PM

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the problem with hiring people from the same school is that you risk creating monocultures within your company

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 10:16 PM

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I would never take on an intern unless I saw the possibility of hiring them at the end of it.

lilac walrus Sep 30, 2018, 10:17 PM

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interns tend to incur a cost, so if you're not aiming at hiring them it's just a net loss

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 10:17 PM

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Exactly

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 10:18 PM

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Oh no I'm not saying hiring people from the same school, interns can easily come from different places, I know we get applications for intern positions from different schools.

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 10:18 PM

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That is, if you are doing it right. If you just take them in and put them to work, it's a different, bad story

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 10:20 PM

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But hiring them after the internship means they already know the company, the people, the projects, the workflow, which otherwise you'd have to teach a new person. Really makes it way more appealing to hire the intern instead of keeping a position open for "a possible future applicant". That is if you're hiring ofcourse, also plenty of studios that don't offer jobs to interns/don't need new hires at the moment/just replace interns with new interns.

lilac walrus Sep 30, 2018, 10:20 PM

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a proper internship is like a training program of sorts

ashen lynx Sep 30, 2018, 10:20 PM

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How come interns end being a net loss? We don't have interns here, but I mean, given generic art internship, an intern will not cover costs of electricity+software+his wages ?

lilac walrus Sep 30, 2018, 10:20 PM

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it provides important studio environment experience

remote saffron Sep 30, 2018, 10:21 PM

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in ideal case intern will take away some of the time of the normal devs

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 10:21 PM

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Yeah like Ambershee points out, it's like a training program of sorts. I prefer to keep them on afterwards rather than having to work someone new in.

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 10:23 PM

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@ashen lynx an intern produces very little quality content compared to a senior, yet a senior has to spend a lot of time training him so you get a pretty bad exchange rate.

neat jackal Sep 30, 2018, 10:23 PM

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Interns will do some of the work, but are an intern, still learning, so your devs/artists will also end up taking time training the intern

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 10:24 PM

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Even if it's a superskilled artist, they still need to be taught your pipeline, setup, team structure, project specifics and so on.

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Especially if it's a proprietary engine.

ashen lynx Sep 30, 2018, 10:28 PM

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Absolutely. But still surprising that it nets into a loss. In other fields internships quite often hang on deals between educational establishments and employing entities though.

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If you ever had to oversee interns, did you get some kind of mentorship allowance for increased workload though ?

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 10:29 PM

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Nope

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I still had to finish all my stuff as well

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No extra pay

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We tried to share the load between the experienced artists though. And in pretty much all cases, it ended up in us hiring them so over the next few years they probably made up for it.

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But during those six months and for that project, it was most defenitely a loss

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If it hadn't ended up in a hire, even more so

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So it's a risk

ashen lynx Sep 30, 2018, 10:34 PM

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Next few years? I did mentor an intern(unrelated to gamedev) and costs aside, 1 month of time investment into teaching certainly turned into intern cutting off more workload off me by the mid of his 6-months internship. But that was slightly different case.

flat gazelle Sep 30, 2018, 10:38 PM

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Alright then

ashen lynx Sep 30, 2018, 10:44 PM

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What about training agreements? I wonder why it is not widely practiced ?

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Safeguards from financial risks(mostly).

rough dirge Oct 1, 2018, 3:01 AM

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i

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'd just like to respond to the few comments after mine on this topic.

if you're lucky enough to live in a country where you can get a degree for <2k a year, by all means there are worse decisions you could make, I was basing my entire argument off of the inflated prices of American/Australian/Southern European courses
I agree that having a degree can help you out with the legal requirements of visa, HR cutoffs etc, but a degree in comp sci will do the same thing and more, and is generally a better bet
I'll concede that not everyone is as proficient at finding and sorting information as some of us, and self teaching may just be easier for us (but I think that's something that can be honed by anyone).
Totally agree that degrees are a great way to network

fickle hatch Oct 1, 2018, 3:52 AM

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Degree helped me a ton with a visa

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I've got a physics degree and it let me go through immigration stuff so easily (for non-job-related reasons)

lilac walrus Oct 1, 2018, 11:26 AM

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For part 3; in this industry you need to be able to self teach and improve. Industry practices move fast and nobody is going to hold your hand.

steel creek Oct 1, 2018, 2:07 PM

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@neat jackal I agree with what you said about degrees which is why I responded to that in the first place

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And it's not American University rates

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There are plenty of affordable schools that have very good educational programs that people just refuse to look at it because it's not the name school that they want to go to

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The only person to blame there are the people making the choices

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Blaming schools is ridiculous

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Telling people not to go get degrees is ridiculous

neat jackal Oct 1, 2018, 2:08 PM

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Yeah, I didn't really base my response on anyone in particular, just as a response on what I usually see posted around here with some examples/arguments that were posted recently

steel creek Oct 1, 2018, 2:09 PM

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Yeah the same

crystal canopy Oct 1, 2018, 7:32 PM

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I’m self taught and have been working in games for 7 years professionally now. Uni students aren’t always so great when they first get out of their course, youwill find a ton of competition in games regardless of education you really need to know what you’re doing straight off the bat to get into any studio

remote saffron Oct 2, 2018, 8:35 PM

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https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-10-02-its-time-we-stopped-encouraging-indies

has some pretty interesting stuff about education and general "game desgin" programs

GamesIndustry.biz

It's time we stopped encouraging indies

The Fall director John Warner rethinks the ethics of guiding aspiring developers without acknowledging some harsh realities

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 8:44 PM

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@remote saffron gonna read the article, first few paragraphs seem interesting. I really wish things would go back to 2000's sorta attitude towards indie games

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I don't know what your experience was, but in communities where I was indie games were always considered to be inherently at a disadvantage when it came to being on the market ("this is cool but you won't sell it"), unneccessarily complex (as people would often write their own engines from scratch), but still highly encouraged for advancing one's skills

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But absolutely not seen as a sure-fire way to earn your living =\

remote saffron Oct 2, 2018, 8:50 PM

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actually I never was in an indie friendly community

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university had a little bit of a startup thing but even that was very slim

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everyone's goal was just to have a fine job and that's it from the circles I moved in

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 8:51 PM

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Well, it was a gamedev-oriented community

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So of course it was super-friendly to indie projects, though they weren't called indie back then but hobbyist projects

remote saffron Oct 2, 2018, 8:52 PM

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that's something actually rather hard to find in my country 😄

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 8:52 PM

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And they were usually projects people did for free, not actually intending to earn a living off them (but certainly such people existed too)

remote saffron Oct 2, 2018, 8:52 PM

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i only saw that in forums, just a few cool kid

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it was way better in a way back in those days

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cause the majority of those did not want to make a living out of it

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they did it cause of interest + technical challenges

karmic kayak Oct 2, 2018, 8:53 PM

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The guy makes some really good points

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 8:56 PM

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@remote saffron Ya, it was a forums-based community

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But also had a chat (IRC)

remote saffron Oct 2, 2018, 8:56 PM

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ok, I kinda know that kind of stuff then

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 8:57 PM

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It was just a big community and I met some people IRL from it. But yeah, the point is, indie game culture did not exist back then

remote saffron Oct 2, 2018, 8:57 PM

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but in the hungarian forum I used to read what those guys missed was like the idea of game design

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when engines came out they were totally lost, didn't even see the point in them

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they just did not get the fact that there is something else going on, other than programming/art, lol 😄

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most of those were coders of course

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 8:58 PM

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Indie games have a real marketing edge over AAA games - that's absolutely real and can be used to a great advantage, but that's just one tiny extra bonus, there's no magical gurantee of success even if a lot of effort is put into the game

remote saffron Oct 2, 2018, 8:58 PM

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not sure where that is tbh

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there are a huge amount of "indie" sites with from 0 to little view counts 😄

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I think people who are already famous have a real marketing edge over everyone else 😄

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 8:59 PM

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Yeah

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And nah

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While it's true, I don't think it has much of an effect in the context of what we're talking about

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Like, remember, notch announced that 0x10c game and everyone jumped on it, yes, there was a marketing edge

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But nothing got delivered and nothing came out of it

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There are other examples where games would get a ton of marketing edge at start, but in the end only like 200 people bought them tops

karmic kayak Oct 2, 2018, 9:00 PM

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also the term "indie" is pretty stained by plainly put crappy and badly made games who call themselves "indie" these days IMHO

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you can see this on KS etc as well

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as "indie" you almost have no chances to get funding anymore.

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 9:02 PM

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You never did and the times when you did have a chance were a fluke

remote saffron Oct 2, 2018, 9:02 PM

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kinda sad imo, when you try to do something and you have to ask yourself if you are part of the crapy indie thing or not 😄 and by whose definition

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then you have to write mails to people who will spend like 5-10 sec reading it if you are lucky, but you are supposed to know them personally and whatnot 😄

delicate apex Oct 2, 2018, 9:03 PM

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good article, I see a lot of people every day in game dev communities without a single shred of doubt in their own skills. inevitable trainwrecks everywhere

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 9:04 PM

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I don't really consider us indies, although we kinda are?

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I consider us being a small company, there's very little indie culture in our project

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Like... whether we have a publisher or we don't, it doesn't really change anything

lusty turtle Oct 2, 2018, 9:06 PM

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Maybe it's just that I don't have a complete picture here, but it feels like the term "Indie" has ended up in some weird halfway world between its literal meaning vs something akin to the video game counterpart of "B-movie"

brisk solar Oct 2, 2018, 9:07 PM

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'indy' ended up in being a 'me too' soy boy culture

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i dont know anyone that woudl willingly call themselves 'indy' gamedev nowadays

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even though they're LITERALLY independent (no publisher) game developers

remote saffron Oct 2, 2018, 9:08 PM

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I do 😎

flat gazelle Oct 2, 2018, 9:08 PM

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A lot of the ex-AAA crowd do

karmic kayak Oct 2, 2018, 9:08 PM

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I think a lot of people interpret "indie" as incompetently made steam direct stuff

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and tbh. i can't blame them as those "games" call themselves indie games

remote saffron Oct 2, 2018, 9:09 PM

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yeah but you should judge people on their games not on a word too much people use to describe themselves

brisk solar Oct 2, 2018, 9:09 PM

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for what it's worth, we all are in our own socuial circles, and i dont hold it aginst anyone who calls themselves 'indy'

remote saffron Oct 2, 2018, 9:09 PM

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it's pretty easy to filter out junk based on a single trailer imo

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 9:09 PM

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When someone markets their game as an indie game, the first thing it tells me is that they are probably over-selling themselves =\

brisk solar Oct 2, 2018, 9:10 PM

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judge people by their games, not their culture 😃

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 9:10 PM

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LIke, without talking specific substance things, it feels to me like "indie" equates to "over-selling yourself"

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Which is... okay I suppose? If you made a generic platform and can't sell it on the merits of it being a platformer, you gotta oversell it... it feels to me like this overselling is inevitable part of the indie image

brisk solar Oct 2, 2018, 9:11 PM

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im personally kind of on @fickle hatch 's side, as soon as a game markets itself specifically as being 'indy' i associate it with being pretentious pixel-art-garbage trash

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regardless of whether it's merited or not

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there's just been TOO many cases exactly that, in my personal view.

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 9:13 PM

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Look at Undertale. The game is clearly successful whether you like it or no. Whatever, I think it's a decent enough of a game. Do you know what I vividly remember about Undertale appearing around? Overselling. Tons of overselling. Everywhere it's postered as the best experience there is, overselling it by a huge margin.

brisk solar Oct 2, 2018, 9:14 PM

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if 'marketed as indy' THEN dismiss = true

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 9:14 PM

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I think it's a good game, but it was so vividly oversold as this groundbreaking never seen before experience

karmic kayak Oct 2, 2018, 9:14 PM

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to me Indie means you're developing without external finacial support (via a Publisher)

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but then again "indie" is probably an subjective term

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 9:15 PM

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Well, that's the definition of indie, but not what it means nowdays

karmic kayak Oct 2, 2018, 9:15 PM

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I'm old 😄

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 9:15 PM

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People attribute extra meanings to the word and everyone has their own extra set

barren lotus Oct 2, 2018, 9:16 PM

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Would you guys consider Respawn to have been indie before this year? They had funding from EA for Titanfall 1 and 2, but they were independent since they weren't owned by EA

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 9:16 PM

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I think they should be the ones giving that answer

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And whether we think they are indie or not is kinda irrelevant

lusty turtle Oct 2, 2018, 9:17 PM

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I remember Undertale getting ridiculously meme'd on

Did that just sorta happen by will of the internet or did Toby Fox & co. stoke the fires on that?

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 9:26 PM

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Will of the internet

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Sorta

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It already had an established fan base before it released and that helped a lot in having it explode like that

lusty turtle Oct 2, 2018, 9:32 PM

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I know Toby Fox basically got his start with Earthbound mods and in some ways Undertale was a spiritual successor to those

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So having a built in fanbase makes every bit of sense

fickle hatch Oct 2, 2018, 9:50 PM

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It was a kickstarter game with a lot of backers and a successful (within a niche) demo version

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 1:56 AM

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@remote saffron that was a good article

urban stump Oct 3, 2018, 4:32 AM

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<@&213101288538374145>

spice dagger Oct 3, 2018, 4:32 AM

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Ty

ocean harbor Oct 3, 2018, 9:34 AM

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@remote saffron good article, we need more of these

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Imho it’s good to encourage people to try new things and learn

remote saffron Oct 3, 2018, 9:35 AM

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I often wonder if articles like these have any effect on people who should read them or not

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I'm not even sure what I should take away from it lol 😄

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but i liked it too anyway 🤷

ocean harbor Oct 3, 2018, 9:35 AM

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Encouraging someone to become an indie is like encouraging to start your own business out of nowhere - even sounds stupid

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“Do you don’t have industry experience, connections and resources to make a product? No problem! Why don’t you start your own business then?”

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@remote saffron back in 2000 there where plenty of good articles on business side of gamedev in relation to “indies”. But even then, practice similar to what Unity is doing was already in place, albeit only by a single game engine

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Practice of cultivating image that all you need to succeed in gamedev is an easy to use engine and some free time

remote saffron Oct 3, 2018, 9:41 AM

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i think most people don't need help to get that idea

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and it is not even just game dev related

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at least in my university, startup culture was the same

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"all you need is a good idea" 😄

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anyway I think we will have more and more you can't manage as indie articles as more and more people fail

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but idk if that will ever get to the same level as we have from success stories

neat jackal Oct 3, 2018, 10:59 AM

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To me, indie in itself isn't necessarily bad, but I really dislike it's become a genre of sorts. Like, it's become a tag in the same list as "horror", "survival", "exploration", etc., but unlike those others "indie" doesn't actually tell you anything about what it actually is. Same as with music, where "indie" is a music genre just like "rock", "metal", and "pop" are, and "independent movies" are a thing nowadays. But unlike the other genre's, indie doesn't mean anything other than "we released it ourselves without a big company backing us". Sure, that's nice and all, but there are so many releasing that way, it's not anything special or a USP, it doesn't affect the content.

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It's become sort of a way to go "hey, there may be bugs and the game may be incomplete, but at least we did it ourselves so it doesn't matter anymore right?" which in itself isn't too bad, because just don't buy the game if you don't like it, the problem starts when other games release independently without using "indie", some journalist/letsplayer/review mentions it's independently made, and then people may go "oh but the last indie games I played I didn't like, so I'll probably not like this one either"

karmic kayak Oct 3, 2018, 11:14 AM

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@remote saffron nah. when i linked that article yesterday. instantly two people commented..mememe...my situation will be different. 😄

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some people are just ignoring reality.

remote saffron Oct 3, 2018, 11:28 AM

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i guess there will be a point where they have to face it, and reading back an article like this might help at that point 🤔

karmic kayak Oct 3, 2018, 11:54 AM

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hope dies last?🤔

ocean harbor Oct 3, 2018, 1:11 PM

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[irrelevant]

cosmic oak Oct 3, 2018, 6:15 PM

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Hey is there anyone in the industry willing to do a resume review? I'm a senior in college that will be looking for junior / associate positions as a gameplay programmer.

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 6:21 PM

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Do you have a portfolio? A body of work?

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That and networking will help you get jobs.

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 6:56 PM

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@cosmic oak Do you have any experience whatsoever as a gameplay programmer?

cosmic oak Oct 3, 2018, 6:57 PM

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I have a portfolio and body of work. I've been networking as best I can. I have a solid amount of experience as a gameplay programmer. Just looking for some polish on my resume. @plucky hatch

buoyant remnant Oct 3, 2018, 7:49 PM

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Hey guys. What do you think about mypage? It's first version. I had more experiences on different fields, but was trying to make it clear and simple focused mainly on programming. https://alexhajdu.github.io

vivid pivot Oct 3, 2018, 7:57 PM

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I would suggest more visuals. Currently quite a wall of text which doesnt grab the persons attention well

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Nice list of project and clear responsibility per project though

buoyant remnant Oct 3, 2018, 8:03 PM

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@vivid pivot thanks for feedback. I can definitely put there some images, but the idea is I'm not author of art for any project, so I make it just like a pure text with relevant info and links

vivid pivot Oct 3, 2018, 8:18 PM

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You're choice. I understand that you're not the artist, I would still recommend using some form of visuals (ask permission, create own art etc). Programmer myself but really helps with the overall presentation of the portfolio.

neat jackal Oct 3, 2018, 8:34 PM

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And if you're a programmer, even simple greyboxed art would be good enough. I would however not necessarily add photos, or at least not just photos, but videos showing your code in action. Pictures often don't show much of what you actually did programming wise

vivid pivot Oct 3, 2018, 8:35 PM

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yeah gifs/video > pictures 😃

buoyant remnant Oct 3, 2018, 8:38 PM

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😃 sometimeds it's hard..for exmaple how to make analytics implementation eye candy

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anyway, I got the point of course 😉

velvet crag Oct 3, 2018, 11:00 PM

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I have an associates degree in Comp Sci, but I started programming 8 years ago casually. not daily, not even weekly, but a fair amount. I actually started in C++ because I didn't have anyone to tell me that was a bad idea. I started using Blender a few years after that, but I have more hours in Blender than I do in C++. I'm not Amazing at either, but I'm good at both. I'm actually a really good, but not very knowledgeable programmer. I'm currently a Stay at home dad, so I've turned to Unreal to have some sort of productive fulfillment. If I spent the next year learning Unreal, what are my options for employment if moving is not an option?

spice dagger Oct 3, 2018, 11:10 PM

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@velvet crag I make a decent living as a remote work only contractor. I live in a rural town in Australia and relocation is out of the question for me. However i maintain healthy contract work continuously for a long time now.

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There is work to be had and you just need to remain persistent.

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Start small and work towards bigger opportunities.

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:18 PM

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@velvet crag What exactly is an ''associate computer science degree"?

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Is it just the regular computer science degree?

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Before university

solemn lantern Oct 3, 2018, 11:23 PM

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a little google goes a long way

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:27 PM

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I already checked. We have a different school system here.

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And we have different degrees in the field of computer science

spice dagger Oct 3, 2018, 11:28 PM

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Where do you live?

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:28 PM

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Quebec, Canada

spice dagger Oct 3, 2018, 11:28 PM

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https://www.academiccourses.com/Associate-Degree/Computer-Science/Canada/

Best Associate Degrees in Computer Science in Canada 2018/2019

Top Associate Degrees in Computer Science in Canada 2018/2019

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:29 PM

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Here we have Computer Science in College (3 years) and then another in University.
And we also have professional programs (Attestation of Collegial Studies) that are 1.5 years that are specific to certain fields.

spice dagger Oct 3, 2018, 11:30 PM

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It seems to just be a degree that you can do alongside another?

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:30 PM

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So the associate degree is the regular DEC here it seems

spice dagger Oct 3, 2018, 11:30 PM

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Or compliments another

solemn lantern Oct 3, 2018, 11:30 PM

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it does depend on which comp sci courses you take as to how long it will be

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some are longer than others

spice dagger Oct 3, 2018, 11:30 PM

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Can we not derail his question here though please.

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:33 PM

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@velvet crag
For most positions it's a matter of portfolio. But that can be bypassed with networking.
For level designer or artist jobs, nobody cares about your degrees. For game designer positions, a university degree can be a plus depending on who is doing the hiring process and their beliefs.
For programmer jobs, you generally need a university degree.
If not, try to get a job at smaller studios.

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:34 PM

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To get a job, you have to prove you can handle basic responsibilities

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A degree is a good indication of that, but as pointed out above, it doesn't have to be decisive

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:36 PM

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@velvet crag
It's also a big plus if the tools you use match what the industry uses.
Ex: 3ds max, Maya, photoshop, substance designer/painter, Unreal Engine 4, Unity

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Blender and MODO are not considered standard.

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:37 PM

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Speaking of picking what industry uses

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There are two paths to take - you can continue to be a specialist, or you can try and become a high-level generalist

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You will have to have a specialist set of skills in either case

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In the first case, you'll absolutely have to stick to tools that industry uses

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In second case, if your specialist skills are something like "getting shit done", you can get by without knowing all the latest and the greatest, but you will have to do much more networking, everyone will be way more strict to your past accomplishments

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:40 PM

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Can you name a generalist in the industry?

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:41 PM

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Todd Howard? 😄

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You'll find these people high up in the command chain

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Generalist is a dirty word and doesn't really describe it IMO

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:42 PM

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This industry has a really really really poor understanding of the value behind multi-specialists and it's really not a path I recommend, unless it's your calling

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:42 PM

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I mean it more in a sense of being a specialist in handling problems - some people are quite skilled at recognizing patterns and such

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And no, it's not a path you ever aim for

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If you wanna become a generalist of this sort, you have to aim to be a specialist, get to a professional level, before you can start expanding the scope

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It's a path that becomes obvious for some people. If it's not a clear path, you don't take it. And you certainly don't aim to be a jack of all trades, that's a pretty bad strategy

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:44 PM

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There is

Generalist (no one wants to hire a generalist)
Specialist
Multi-specialist

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And we shouldn't call multi-specialists, generalists.

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:45 PM

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You know, I'll agree with you there and retract me using the term generalist

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I don't retract the thoughts, but generalist is kind of a dirty word

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Maybe multi-specialist is what I meant

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:45 PM

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But i understand what your point was.

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Im a multi specialist and people always think Im a generalist who can't do anything.

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:46 PM

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Yeah, I just mean people who are good at doing stuff (which generally implies they already hold at least one speciality and have a very solid grasp on it) and they go beyond their single scope

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E.g. artists who become leaders of their art team and no longer do a lot of art

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:46 PM

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Most people can't comprehend that some people can get good in more than one field.
They also have a hard time understanding how to be good at multiple complementary fields can make you better in other fields.

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:47 PM

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I was talking mostly with those type of people in mind. Those who for example can do art, programming, but what they really are doing is business stuff since their experience in those other specialities is extremely valuable etc

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:47 PM

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👌

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:48 PM

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Yeah, I'll call them multi-specialists from now 😄

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:48 PM

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I'm a Sr. designer who can do art and programming. But in interviews, people thought that I was less of a level designer, because I spent time doing other things.

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They just don't get it

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:49 PM

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I'm an engineer who does textures, technical art and programming in addition to engineering

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It's great to be able to go through every workflow myself before handing it off to other artists to finish the bulk of work

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:49 PM

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👌

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It also slightly enhance soft skills when a person knows what job others do

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Because she/he has direct experience doing it

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:52 PM

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I consider my speciality to be figuring things out and keeping large complex systems in my head

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I find it trivial and very enjoyable to work with very large systems that have a lot of subcomponents, even if I'm not an expert on those subcomponents

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:52 PM

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As a side note, I wrote an article on this very specific subject a while back.
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/ChristianPhilippeGuay/20180401/315948/The_value_of_a_multispecialization.php

The value of a multi-specialization

This article was written to help us better understand the value of becoming a multi-specialist in the video games industry.

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But the rest of the industry needs to catch up.

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:53 PM

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My previous job was me leading the aircraft team (it was a company doing UAV's), basically telling single-specialists what to do

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Plus I was doing control software programming 😄

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@plucky hatch I'm bored and will check out article now!

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:56 PM

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@fickle hatch sounds complicated lmao

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:57 PM

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@plucky hatch easier than my current game/simulator project actually

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Like, the biggest complexities that come to my mind right away... would be the chaotic behavior of the aircraft team and their weird belief in superstitions lol

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:58 PM

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lol

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:58 PM

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The aircraft guys would do stuff like rotate servomotors by 180 degrees without telling me (this is equivalent to multiplying the control outputs by -1, meaning the craft tries to kill itself rather than trying to keep itself steady)

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:59 PM

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T_T

fickle hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:59 PM

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And they would never launch aircraft with side wind, only into the wind. Even if this meant launching towards a bunch of MILITARY GENERALS or HIGH VOLTAGE ELECTRIC POWER LINES

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So we have near-miss stories those

plucky hatch Oct 3, 2018, 11:59 PM

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LOLL

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I feel safer already

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:00 AM

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@plucky hatch I'm serious, do you know how I became in charge of the aircraft guys (the mechanics and everything in production of it)? At the time I was only writing ground software. So we go to this military demo with military generals

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The guys radio to me "go to automatic mode" (they brought it into air on manual control)

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Soooo I uplink it a command to go auto, it promptly nosedives, slams into ground, explodes

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The aircraft guys overlooked the fact that they had to configure the control system

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So the control system had no PID gains set for anything hurrr

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:02 AM

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lmao

#

brilliant

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Were they testing it?

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:03 AM

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It was a demonstration

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The flight plan would be getting up in the air, then completing a certain flight path in automatic mode

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Of course, the plane was packed with expensive cameras and computers

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Even though it was never tested before in that configuration

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Hell, it was never tested on automatic flight mode, it was always manual before that lol

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:04 AM

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ROFL

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What a waste

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:04 AM

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Oh yes, it was something like $30k in materials down the drain

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:05 AM

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not too bad

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just 10k more than my student debts

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:05 AM

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But wait @plucky hatch, it gets better, they actually tried to do a second launch and fucked up on the start, stalled and crashed the second model too (that was only good for manual control)

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I don't know why they did it, but it put me in charge so w/e

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:06 AM

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Fascinating

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ANd now I imagine you work on a military game/simulator

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:06 AM

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Almost! It's actually a subway train sim

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Comes in game & industrial variants. Lets you drive subway trains, which are fully recreated, all electronic components, all mechanics, pneumatics, etc, everything. All the IRL instructions, regulations and all the real educational materials are all 100% relevant

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The goal is to let drivers dick around with trains and make every mistake possible so they gain an intuitive strong understanding of why rules and regulations exist

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Plus teach them creative problem solving and not just memorizing instructions

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:11 AM

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Do you love it? Why not work on AAA games instead?

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:11 AM

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I looooove it, I just wish development went smoother (nothing unusual there, the usual perils of starting up from scratch on your own)

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I think [s]videogame[/s] general information technology industry (the industry, in sense of being a part of it) is incredibly boring in general

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:12 AM

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loll

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:12 AM

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It's my personal taste thing - I want my work to involve physical things and energies that can kill a human

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I can only truly enjoy working on something if this something has capacity to store enough energy to disintegrate a human 😄

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Be it mechanical energy, electric energy or whatever

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Subway trains, aerospace stuff, whatever

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:14 AM

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I'd say that, personally, even if I can do 3D art now... I probably wouldn't make it a career, because when i do art... I always feel like it's a waste of time and I'm not actively contributing to making this world a better place. Design and programming for me feel more fulfilling.

#

I would understand if working on sims feel better than AAA games

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:14 AM

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Like... who at a videogame company ever gets to do fieldwork?

#

I can name like... one position that does field work

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:14 AM

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artists?

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:14 AM

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Maybe you can think of more, but I can only think of texture artists

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:14 AM

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yeah

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They visit places

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:14 AM

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Texture artists would be the guys going out into the field a lot as routine part of their work

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:15 AM

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Like for assassin's creed or uncharted i imagine

digital gate Oct 4, 2018, 12:15 AM

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maybe audio capture of something

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total guess tho

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:15 AM

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True

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:15 AM

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oh! true

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:15 AM

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In our sim, we did field work for textures, audio & reference photos (excluding engineering fieldwork)

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:15 AM

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Well they could do that for audio for sure

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:16 AM

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We do routine engineering fieldwork (aka we go to the local depot and just hang out with the guys) 😄

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:16 AM

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When i studied multimedia, we did some audio and we had to walk around the city to record ambient sounds

#

lol

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rain, waterfall, traffic, etc

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:16 AM

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That's kinda what's fun about simulators for me. While not with my literal hands, I had to take the train apart, part by part, to reverse engineer it (because of course nobody would just give us all the docs on the silver platter)

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Due to my geographical distance I have to take trains apart through other peoples hands

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They take them apart, measure them up, take ref photos and then I draw blueprints and such

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And then I give blueprints to the 3D guy to implement them as a 3D mesh

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I love this pipeline, I love drawing and working with blueprints. I would hate an AAA approach of "just make the asset" that doesn't leave me time to investigate this particular asset, incorporate it into a bigger engineering model...

#

Speaking of career advice, something I found extremely valuable in my life was documenting and preserving results

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I think correctly preserving results of my previous work, documenting them and storing them properly was extremely valuable

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This is insanely important in engineering, but I found its value in programming sorta things too

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 12:25 AM

#

I agree

#

Especially in programming

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Or science

#

But it's more a side effect of having an organic human memory which is limited

#

Maybe this will change with the Neurolace Brain Computer Interface that is being developed by Elon Musk.
LOL

velvet crag Oct 4, 2018, 12:45 AM

#

Thank you everyone for the answers. Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I went to dinner. But, thank you.

fickle hatch Oct 4, 2018, 1:02 AM

#

@plucky hatch it's quite a nice article btw!

plucky hatch Oct 4, 2018, 3:55 PM

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@fickle hatch thanks!

finite osprey Oct 5, 2018, 12:59 AM

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Anyone want to hire a professional gameplay/tools programmer? My company is collapsing.

solemn lantern Oct 5, 2018, 1:00 AM

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#looking-for-work

fickle hatch Oct 5, 2018, 1:18 AM

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Sorry to hear @finite osprey, good choice to start looking for a new job though

plucky hatch Oct 5, 2018, 2:52 AM

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@finite osprey Good luck, man.

plucky hatch Oct 5, 2018, 6:10 PM

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should be sending out CVs rather than discord messages methinks

plucky hearth Oct 5, 2018, 7:28 PM

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Sadly it's only possible for any one person to do only one of those things.

young schooner Oct 5, 2018, 7:31 PM

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Yeah, it is really annoying to have to uninstall discord just to send out CVs and then reinstall it again when you are done.

steel creek Oct 6, 2018, 2:03 AM

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Real engineers would make it so when their work is saved, it automatically posts to Discord

remote saffron Oct 6, 2018, 9:49 AM

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yeah with webhooks from the source control system 🤷

#

it's a pretty common practice

plucky hatch Oct 6, 2018, 9:03 PM

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Does anyone know where I could make some money off of part time 3D modeling and texturing

#

@me in response

ocean stirrup Oct 7, 2018, 7:52 PM

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@plucky hatch Freelancing

plucky hatch Oct 7, 2018, 8:55 PM

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yes

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@ocean stirrup where?

steel creek Oct 7, 2018, 9:34 PM

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as in move your question to #freelancing or seekingjobs. Career-advice is about career-advice, not, here is a job

vivid pivot Oct 7, 2018, 9:34 PM

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#looking-for-work 😉

steel creek Oct 7, 2018, 9:35 PM

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yeah that one

plucky hatch Oct 7, 2018, 10:48 PM

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ok

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@vivid pivot I can't type there

solemn lantern Oct 8, 2018, 12:44 AM

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use the bot

vivid pivot Oct 8, 2018, 1:16 PM

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@plucky hatch Yes use the bot, check the pinned messages for rules/how-to

plucky hatch Oct 8, 2018, 1:17 PM

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Ok

fickle hatch Oct 8, 2018, 10:14 PM

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How does one get the most out of a game developer conference

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Conferences and conventions are expensive and can easily be useless. How does one get the most out of it? (the question is from both exhibiting and visiting perspective)

remote saffron Oct 8, 2018, 10:17 PM

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you get access to all the talks later, right?

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so I guess you should focus on networking + pick the talks you are 100% sure they will be cool

fickle hatch Oct 8, 2018, 10:17 PM

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Ya, lets assume that all talks are bullshit and boring or can be accessed later

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So we're not going to conference just to sit and listen

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So how does one focus on networking for example?

mental viper Oct 8, 2018, 10:21 PM

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i guess that depends on the conference

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if there are (after)parties

remote saffron Oct 8, 2018, 10:21 PM

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I assumed we are talking about the conference

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GDC

fickle hatch Oct 8, 2018, 10:22 PM

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Let me give some specific context, I have a business partner who thinks we should go to a conference (it's very GDC like, but on the other side of the planet)

remote saffron Oct 8, 2018, 10:22 PM

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then check if you will have access to talks later or not

fickle hatch Oct 8, 2018, 10:23 PM

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It doesn't seem to be particularly expensive, but it's still some money. I can't go myself (I have no issues networking with people who are useful for us), so he would be the one going

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Potentially. Together with someone who is experienced with talking to people. But they don't have strong enough intuition to just "be in the flow"

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The only goal is networking. Trying to figure out how to make them do it efficiently

fickle hatch Oct 9, 2018, 12:11 AM

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@remote saffron I talked to someone else and we figured out the best instruction for guys who will go to the convention in place of me is "have fun and chill out with everyone who is likeable and likes you back"

flat gazelle Oct 9, 2018, 6:07 AM

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Plan it ahead. When I was freelancing I had meetings, coffees, dinners and catchup planned for nearly every waking minute of Gdc. If I wasn't doing a presentation I was meeting someone. My longest break was 50 minutes where I could browse the exhibition. It was exhausting but it set me up with clients for about a year as well as developed my brand.

fickle hatch Oct 9, 2018, 6:13 AM

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Haha, would help if we knew anyone there 😄

honest cipher Oct 9, 2018, 9:00 AM

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a freelancer needs to go to every gamedev convention possible to network

remote saffron Oct 9, 2018, 9:33 AM

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I have a hard time talking to random folks 🤔

fickle hatch Oct 9, 2018, 9:35 AM

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Practice talking to anonymous strangers online 😄

flat gazelle Oct 9, 2018, 10:01 AM

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Don't go and talk to randoms. Reach out to people you want to connect with and ask if they will be there. Some conventions have apps that help with this.

plucky hatch Oct 10, 2018, 5:30 PM

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Does anyone here have experience with kickstarting a project for a modest ($2000) usd?

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I have an MVP that I want to demo

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The money would go to commissioned assets

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Crowdfunding or that epic fund

digital gate Oct 10, 2018, 5:32 PM

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I've seen several failed kickstarters, and am probably capable of telling you what not to do.

plucky hatch Oct 10, 2018, 5:32 PM

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I'm taking writing classes rn so I have an outline of a pitch

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Sure I'm all ears

digital gate Oct 10, 2018, 5:33 PM

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Don't have way more textdump than you do content

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Also don't make 'funny' reward tiers like Oh, you just funded a month of development. Guess we can give you a studio tour... when we build it

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maybe that's common sense tho ¯_(ツ)_/¯

plucky hatch Oct 10, 2018, 5:35 PM

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Right

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I won't be delivering any crappy tat or studio tours

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My game is singleplayer only so I feel limited in my offerings

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I'll just give the game for lowest tier contributors

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I only have a single 12 level for MVP

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12 min

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I'll work on the game some more and see where to move forward

neat jackal Oct 10, 2018, 6:55 PM

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One that I personally like in kickstarters that's also kinda easy to deliver is packs of multiple games. Have a higher tier give multiple game copies, to give away to friends or whatever. Means a person spending more does get more, it's easy delivering on the dev end, and gets more people playing the game. It's like a win-win-win.

plucky hatch Oct 10, 2018, 6:59 PM

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Thanks, that makes sense. I will do that

fickle hatch Oct 10, 2018, 7:23 PM

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Kickstarters are a nice marketing tool, but I dunno how realistic it is to get anything out of it, unless you are doing it for a preestablished audience

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@plucky hatch can you build up the audience before Kickstarter? Won’t be good doing it during

young schooner Oct 10, 2018, 7:25 PM

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And keep in mind a lot of successful kickstarts failed a few times before they had a successful one.

fickle hatch Oct 10, 2018, 7:26 PM

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2k is also very low

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You will have to pay taxes and Kickstarter commission fee out of it

plucky hatch Oct 10, 2018, 7:33 PM

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Thanks, I hadn't comsidered that

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I don't have a preestablished audience, I suppose I should work om that

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I was hoping a playable demo would suffice, but it wouldn't hurt to try cultivating an audience first

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It would increase my probability for success, even if it will take longer

plucky hearth Oct 11, 2018, 2:14 PM

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Here's something I run into sometimes. I'm a composer and sound designer, and sometimes while I'm going after a client they will ask for a demo before hiring me. That is, specifically a track made for them that isn't fully fleshed out, but is a kind of a trial run. Personally, I really, really hate this. It's working for free and isn't even an accurate way of detecting quality, since the more desperate/less employed a person is the more time they can spend on it, and tip the odds by providing what is essentially a finished product. What do you guys think? How would you react if someone asked you to do that with your specialisation? Do you ever ask for something like this from musicians or artists?

mental viper Oct 11, 2018, 2:15 PM

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ask for payment

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or refer to your portfolio

plucky hearth Oct 11, 2018, 2:16 PM

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If it was for a really big job, and they wanted like a proposal, or to spend some time talking and comparing ideas, that would be fine. I had someone ask for a demo to make them one song this week, and honestly, it's so exhausting to have to explain why it's really not fair.

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I absolutely do, but i've had a few people be very insistent, like I'm an idiot for not wanting to do that.

mental viper Oct 11, 2018, 2:17 PM

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be insistent back then kappa

remote saffron Oct 11, 2018, 2:18 PM

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as a programmer I have to do some random test if I apply to somewhere, which can range from 10 minutes walk in the park to 4 hours of hard work, but I guess it's not really comparable to your situation

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on the other hand, when I was looking for a composer I offered compensation for the trial track as well

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but at the end I only asked that from one guy, because I could filter out the rest based on how hard the communication was with them 🤦

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so maybe it is trivial, but good advice for everyone:
if you are looking for work and start to talk with someone, answer each question or if they are not clear, ask for clarification

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because if I write a mail which includes 3-4 questions and the answer I get is "ok" then no, I won't hire you

plucky hearth Oct 11, 2018, 2:23 PM

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Haha, thanks @mental viper . Sometimes you just need to ask. This one guy had me really second guessing my principles. @remote saffron , I've seen that sort of thing asked of programmers before, and now that you mention it I swear this has always been programmers asking for this. How does the concept of the portfolio transfer to the world of programming? I ask as well because I'm learning to program but am not at the point where I'm advertising it as a skill yet.

remote saffron Oct 11, 2018, 2:25 PM

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I have heard someone being hired for a well known company based on portfolio only, but that's the exception

plucky hearth Oct 11, 2018, 2:30 PM

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So you normally have to do some sort of trial? And that's for free i take it?

remote saffron Oct 11, 2018, 2:31 PM

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yes but that is a test which was developed to test your abilities, and there are interviews and stuff

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so it's not about you doing any free work for them, it's about proving your abilities

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and compared to the time you are going to work for the company if they hire you the time you spend on the test is like nothing

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still it can be time consuming especially if travel is involved

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and sometimes they realize after a test that they can't even hire you cause of reasons, that's annoying 😄

plucky hearth Oct 11, 2018, 2:33 PM

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That makes sense. I think that's the difference, if it's for a steady bit of work I think it's fair.

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and oh, that sounds awful!

remote saffron Oct 11, 2018, 2:35 PM

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I knew a guy who passed the first rounds of interviews for naughty dogs, was called in to the office ,then the whole process was canceled because they could not provide more visa (he is form europe) 🤦

karmic kayak Oct 11, 2018, 2:36 PM

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well some visa's are limited in numbers

plucky hearth Oct 11, 2018, 2:36 PM

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I'm from Europe 😰

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I got a work permit though, haha. 😃

remote saffron Oct 11, 2018, 2:38 PM

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indeed, but it still sucks 😄

plucky hatch Oct 11, 2018, 4:27 PM

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@plucky hearth I agree. I hate level design tests as well.

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I dont have time for this shit.