what is?
#career-chat
ionic marlin
I already destroyed one relationship because I'm working too hard
I want to know if at least am doing the right thing
fickle hatch
There isn't a single right path
restive root
@ionic marlin If you want to work in the industry then having experience making a game is essential. However I’d suggest making many small games first rather than a couple of big ones. You can learn A LOT about good design and satisfying gameplay from a very small and simple 2D platformer and I’d say it’s moe important you learn these lessons before doing anything larger. You’ll also spend a lot of time making systems which you wouldn’t be asked to do as a designer within a studio. It’s no bad thing to know how to make these systems, but I’d think it’d be more important to focus on gameplay or level design.
Also remember that running a kickstarter takes a lot of time and effort which could be used to improve design knowledge. I’m not saying it’s a bad idea, but releasing the game for free might get you more feedback to help you improve.
As well as making gamer, designers should have some other skills too (teamwork, written and verbal communication etc). Learn to develop these.
Good luck on your quest. Do not wreck relationships and your life to hit this goal. Having strong relationships makes you a better person, a better employee and a better designer so don’t neglect yourself. Be focused but not destructive!
(Sorry for all the typos. I’m on my phone)
ionic marlin
Thank you @restive root . I have already made a couple of small games, but those don't hold my motivation up to keep making them. I'm making part of my dream game now, and that is the only thing that keeps me going. Also I'm close to 30 and i feel that I don't have much time left. I need to succeed now.
As for communication and teamwork, yes, I do know I need to learn that, but how should I find team members? I'm broke. I can hardly feed myself.
fickle hatch
Be chill and fun to hang out with, don't expect too much or command people around and you can find some good team members. A lot of people would love to practice their craft if they just had some motivation for it
Making 3D models for practice is one thing, but making them for someones game and having that person be super grateful about it is different
Kinda same for making games
Show & tell and never stop
Best team members are those guys who make mods and content for your games
And being loved by even a small audience is a great motivation
restive root
Age isn’t as big a barrier as you might think. Being nearly 30 is absolutely not too late. If you get into the industry now you’ll find that you are older than other new recruits, but that’s only a problem if you let it be one.
Also, try getting another job if your broke. It’s not ideal as it takes time away from your learning but it’s MUCH healthier than constantly punishing yourself and no matter what the job is, you’ll probably find there are lessons in there which can be applied to game design.
plucky hatch
the industry often needs specialists.
employers arent looking for people who can make their own games.
they want an artist or a designer who does only one thing 24/7
or a writer, a programmer or else
Be specific
If you don't know what you want to do, sure... make games and find what you like to do most
--
Networking is essential.
A contact might allow you to get a job right away, no test or anything.
fickle hatch
I think it's very valuable to become familiar with a lot of things, then attain higher specialization while working on specific projects (e.g. after getting a job)
But it's a fair point, the potential employer will mostly look for something very specific
flat gazelle
Correct. You won't be hired as maker of games, in Aaa. You get hired as ai programmer or narrative designer or some other specialized role.
ionic marlin
So, I've been wasting my time for the past year?
because I don't believe anyone will hire a blueprints programmer
lilac walrus
lots of companies hire scripters
lilac walrus
tbh, most small studios don't hire generalists either - they hire a small number of fairly experienced people who can do other work in a pinch
flat gazelle
Yeah, but it's more likely you will be multidisiplinary
Not likely perhaps, but More likely
ionic marlin
fuck man, I think I should quit... I'll never get a job, it is doubtful if I ever create a indie game that sells
I fucked up
flat gazelle
Nah, having been doing it for a while you are already ahead of most 😃
lilac walrus
it takes a bit of effort to break in - but just making a few things in your spare time is all it really takes to get that foot in the door
demonstrable ability doing something
ionic marlin
Thank you for that
but isn't it also true that while I'm ahead of most, there are many more people that are way ahead of me?
ionic marlin
and I'll have to compete with people who are better than me, because they are doing it for a lot longer
ionic marlin
so any advice to catch up with my competition?
I guess the first would be to learn Cpp
flat gazelle
If that's what you want to do
ionic marlin
and make a small game with it
I would like to be a manager or director
I don't like programing, I just do it because I have to.
flat gazelle
Then you have two options. Start your own company (entrepreneur route) or work your way up to director in an established studio over the next 20 years or so.
What is it you like about managing?
ocean harbor
Look for the job of producer-assistant or start your own business to get experience as @flat gazelle suggests
Demonstrating that you can manage is much harder than doing a cpp test 😃
lilac walrus
tbh, it's hard to manage in an industry you haven't actually worked in
best entry level position for that kind of this is production
ocean harbor
Without experience need to have a specialized education at least
lilac walrus
aye
and most producers have an education that leans in that direction
in any case, if you don't like making games, why even aim for a games job?
ocean harbor
Good question
Many of the managers in movies/games are grown “out of necessity”. They do it because it’s necessary. Not always but it’s not too common to like it 😄
flat gazelle
Yeah, I'm not as fond of the managing side of my job as my content creation side, but I'd rather do it than let someone who doesn't understand it take care of it.
ionic marlin
I make games because I enjoy making games, just not programing them. But since there is no job opening for ideas guy or "make creative decisions" guy, I'll have to start by making my own game, then get a job as a manager (I have a BA in management) and one day, I can maybe have a team working on my titles...
of course being a successful indie is more optimal, since I don't have to worry about not making the games I want to make... but as I am finding out, this is very stressful. All this stress is literally making me depressed
flat gazelle
Welcome to gamedev. Depression is depressingly common. If you haven't released anything successful yet you can look forward to being hated by your playerbase.
digital gate
that can also happen if you release something with some fans, but which was otherwise unsuccessful
flat gazelle
Having the dev nicknames traceable was a good way to ensure we got kicked and banned from most servers after one release.
Good times
ionic marlin
I don't wanna quit because i can't imagine myself not creating, but I can't take all this stress...
Perhaps I shouldn't aim at being a pro, and settle for being a hobbyist.
digital gate
or be hobbyist until you can go pro
ashen lynx
Perhaps you should get a job to keep yourself up and keep gamedev as a hobby.
wild solstice
i was recently a hobbyist, freelancing in other industries to pay the bills .. was also thinking of giving up gamedev
flat gazelle
I haven't thought about giving up since this morning
But there is not really anything I would rather do
Making games is hard as nails
wild solstice
there was recently an opportunity and i forced myself some face time with the company, becasuse my cv aint impressive and my portfolio is random stuff i can show on the phone
got an interview / test, got hired over people with more experience
after 2 weeks i got promoted to project lead
remote saffron
2 more weeks like that and you will be ceo 😄
I would like to be a manager or director
from what you say I would rather think that you want to be a game desginer 🤔
wild solstice
nah, i wont get much higher than that
it was very circumstancial
they switched from unity to ue
i'm the only one on the team with actual ue experience
i'll assume anothe role after this project
remote saffron
but it's mid project, right? 🤔 was the switch worth it? 😮
wild solstice
in my mind no, since the game was 70% complete
wild solstice
all the features were there so idk what they were thinking
but i'm not complaining
flat gazelle
Lead designer or creative director sounds more like what he is after. Though both of those tend to take years of climbing the career ladder to become. Unless you start your own studio.
flat gazelle
CD is as close to idea guy as you can get.
wild solstice
we are only 10 people atm (on the game) so everyone will need to fill various roles
flat gazelle
Switching engines in production sounds like a studio killing idea
Ah
That makes more sense
remote saffron
from my experience going indie is way more extrem on emotional level compared to normal industry job both on the positive and on the negative side 🤔
but I guess that depends on the person and on the workplace and etc.
ionic marlin
My guess is that being indie is easier if you have a team and don't have to do everything on your own
wild solstice
if you have a good team it's always easier
wild solstice
most likely
remote saffron
also working on an indie game for years and then ending upwith something not financially succesful is way worse on emotional level than working for a company which produces a game which isn't a success imo
wild solstice
with that i can 100% agree
i'm working on a game right now that is not my cup of tea
remote saffron
at least for me working in the industry was "easy", doing my own stuff is hard (but coool)
wild solstice
and wasn't there from the inception
so i dont see myself getting too emotionally attached
remote saffron
yes, and also, if you work in a bigger team that also reduces the emotionally attachment imo
I was generally interested in the game I worked on but my contribution % was way smaller, and also I was working on engine level stuff anyway 😄
on the other hand emotial attachment is both the best and the worst part of the whole thing 🤔
wild solstice
we're making an arcade racer, simple and accessable the kind of game you can play with one hand on the toilet for 5 mins
so there's that
tho we strive to make it right, or not release it at all
honest cipher
one of the job offers i have is for a lead developer job on a small studio that is growing
they are growing from like 5 to 30 people and want new leads
lets see how that one goes, might be interesting
wild solstice
i guess it's more like testing the waters kind of project for the company
honest cipher
thtas perfectly fine @wild solstice
if i build my studio
in spain
the first thing i would do is to join the first gamejam we can find
to get practise "working as a team"
and to polish the workflows
honest cipher
if there is no gamejam about to run
i would do a very small game, like 1 month tops
for the same reason
wild solstice
they made some games before but probably different people, structure...
honest cipher
its very good to "test" the workflow on a small project
check that you can use source control, what works, what doesnt, etc
plucky hatch
@ionic marlin There is a job known as Technical Level Designer or Technical Game Designer.
Those guys script stuff (Blueprint, Kismet, C#, etc.).
Scripting missions, AI paths, AI behaviors, enemy waves, custom gametypes, etc.
Think of everything that occurs in a Call of Duty map or a GTA world.
Sometimes level designers would do both design and scripting. Depends on the company
lilac walrus
yeah, technical designer is what I do - but it's a fairly recent development and a lot of studios don't have them yet (madness)
remote saffron
do you have a programmer background @lilac walrus ?
lilac walrus
yeah
"Technical Designer" wasn't really a thing at all ten years ago
I started as a 'Gameplay Programmer' at Lionhead
plucky hatch
I srarted 10 years ago as TGD :p
lilac walrus
but what I did there these days would be referred to as 'Technical Design'
I almost never wrote any C++, haha
worked entirely in scripting languages
remote saffron
and how much creative freedom do you have? 🤔
plucky hatch
But when I started, they were calling us Integrators. Good way to underpay us. I fought for a name change and eventually it lead to the creation of level designers and technical game designers.
remote saffron
do you need to make the balancing and stuff work, or is it predefined and you just make it happen the way someone decided it to be?
plucky hatch
It is different from one studio to another, from one project to another.
If you are working on a FPS, you could be responsible for placing enemies, choosing what they do, how they react, what path they take, how enemy waves are managed, where they can take cover, etc. If you have to place a C4 on something, you are the one who places the location where the c4 needs to be placed, script the interaction between the two, etc. maybe you'll even script cutscenes or parts of them.
honest cipher
thats 100% a level design job
plucky hatch
A TLD or TGD wouldn't necessarily create 3d map layouts.
some designers are good at both
Where I worked, it was often the lead designer who would design the level and we would script everything. On other projects we would do both. Case by case.
Here in Montreal, Ubisoft, Gameloft, Warner Bros and Eidos MTL all have technical designers.
severe elm
I'm at a weird kind of crossroads right now
I will need a part time job to live in paris while I study at ecole 42
I have two months during which I can start building some portfolio, I can either:
- start coding a crappy little game engine ( years of experience with C++ and some with UE4's code ),
- learn web programming ( almost from 0 ),
- learn OpenCL ( again, almost from 0 )
I don't know which one is more likely to land me a temp job. OpenCL aside, 1. is the one with which I have more experience at first sight is sounds like it would be way easier to find a job in 2.
solemn lantern
id say try and make some of your own code to prove what you can do, not make something relying on massive systems that you didnt make
fickle hatch
If you never made your own game engine, it's a good learning experience
solemn lantern
id say you should try learning some python and javascript and doing webdev as many people are looking for websites that they need to be made
vivid pivot
From personal experience, I think it's easier to get a web dev job (just learn some React). If you have time and motivation though, give the engine a shot!
severe elm
I think I'll have to delay the engine until after I have enough web coding skills to pay the rent then
restive root
@ionic marlin If you like the management side and have business skills you could look into working as a Producer. Look for Associate Producer positions initially and until then, learn about resource management, popular issue tracking tools like Jira & Hansoft, agile methodology etc.
solemn lantern
probably a good idea
its best to build up your simpler skills before diving into something like a game engine
severe elm
that was the obvious choice from the start, it just bugged me that I have a pretty decent idea of how to make a game engine but wrote like 2 lines of javascript in my life
vivid pivot
The engine is a fun project of course, but harder to monotize as well
solemn lantern
i wrote a ton of python before starting with some of my bigger projects
discord bots are actually quite a good learning experience as you get direct feedback from what you write
it gives you experience with stuff like web apis, image manipulation and tasks like that
severe elm
well, even a small engine would be a huge undertaking
risks taking more than learning basic all-round front end skills and then not landing a job anyway
thanks
fickle hatch
You will never monetize the engine, it's simply a great way to get experience relevant for a lot of real work
If that kinda work would be relevant to what you wanna do anyway
severe elm
I wasn't expecting to monetize anything
It was just for showing off ( with potential employers )
solemn lantern
if you want to show off do something like a make a compiler
the code from those things is very impressive
fickle hatch
That is a great thing too
solemn lantern
its also really fucking difficult
fickle hatch
I've written a few compilers myself, they are a good way to show off your programming skill
fickle hatch
Yes. I started with simple assembly compilers and even more trivial things (not even really compilers)
And moved onto high-level assembly (basically C with quirks)
With expression parsing, basic optimization and all the fun stuff
solemn lantern
im stuck trying to make a recursive descent parser work properly
fickle hatch
It was for an imaginary processor I designed for fun, as an addon for a certain game
solemn lantern
i have all the data structures setup, but i just cant get the data into the structures properly
solemn lantern
mine is written in pure C
memory managment is way overblown in how difficult people say it is
fickle hatch
Well
Coming from embedded and high-reliability software side, best memory management is no memory management
E.g. least amount of dynamic allocation that still keeps the code simple and straightforward
fickle hatch
Not in sense of "reuse these variables hurr", but more in sense of "allocate this cache just once, maybe re-allocate it once in a lifetime"
Conceptual approach of not using a lot of dynamic allocation rather than an optimization approach
solemn lantern
but seeing as compilers dont need to run for extended periods of time small memory leaks are usualy acceptable during early stages
unlike something like python where a single memory leak could mean everything breaking
so you can leave memory managment for later on
fickle hatch
The Lua-based compiler I had was interleaving in its operation
solemn lantern
or go the unreal way and just say fuck it and leak memory
fickle hatch
Because the game only had one thread
And I had to make it compile stuff without freezing up the single thread
solemn lantern
multithreading compilers sounds like a pain
severe elm
that's why we have makefiles
i have done a recursive parser for basic maths expressions as part of an entrance test, but in the way it was made it should be extendable to all kinds of syntax
if we're talking about expressions that need to be evaluated
hit me up tomorrow if you want
solemn lantern
its less expressions and more parsing an entire language im having problems with
fickle hatch
If you want, I can PM you sourcecode to my compiler
solemn lantern
im getting plenty of help from other people already, its just taking time
fickle hatch
Maybe it'll give you some ideas
solemn lantern
that would be greatly appreciated
fickle hatch
Mine is pretty simple, I didn't do any fancy stuff when it comes to syntax, just some old ideas
severe elm
Where exactly do memory leaks tend to go unnoticed?
It never happened to me ( I guess it's easier in C++ ) so I struggle to come up with an example
solemn lantern
early returns from big functions
its why uinique_ptr is so nice to have as it covers all the early returns and you dont have to delete or free explicitly
severe elm
Oh you mean when you return a pointer to the heap?
If you know c++ really well ( which is a lot to say ), I don't really see the drawbacks of making a compiler with it
Sure, there's some stuff I wouldn't to with it like an OS ( just because all the "implicit' calls can fuck up your real time stuff without you noticing )
But I never got why pure c is thought of as much superior in some fields
solemn lantern
its faster and simpler mainly
and everything has a C compiler built into it
whereas C++ takes alot longer to compile and not everything has a C++ compiler for it
honest cipher
C should not be used this days
same way you shouldnt be using COBOL
specially for something like a compiler
wich is like the worst case scenario of using C
i also wouldnt recomend C++ for a compiler, but at least you have strings
much better would be a functional-ish lenguage, they excel at this
solemn lantern
C++ only sort of has strings
and functional languages are good at making other functional languages
honest cipher
and C doesnt
solemn lantern
writing a C compiler in haskell would be a shitshow
honest cipher
not really
functional lenguages excel at graph/tree bullshit
and a compiler is basically ALL graph/tree bullshit
solemn lantern
a fair amount of it is codegen
especially once you start getting in to optimisation
honest cipher
nothing says you cant codegen on a functional lenguage
you just create arrays of instructions
honestly, the best would be rust right now
due to its features such as the "match" statement
solemn lantern
or kotlin which has a simmilar thing
solemn lantern
the JVM does bring along alot of shitty build systems
which kotlin fails to escape
honest cipher
nowhere near as bad as c++
solemn lantern
at least i can make an executable within half an hour with C++
vernal kraken
errr there's some amazing build systems in the java eco system
though they're all by languages not being .. java
finite mulch
@honest cipher IMO functional is indeed a good idea for a compiler
Or at least smthg safe memory wise
As being able to write recursive functions without caring about perf is 😍
honest cipher
hell yeah
but not only about recursion
but about match statement and similar things
sumMyTree :: Num a => MyTree a -> a
sumMyTree MyEmptyNode = 0
sumMyTree (MyFilledNode n t1 t2) = n + sumMyTree t1 + sumMyTree t2
look at this shit
the top one is like the function "declaration"
it takes a MyTree of type a, and returns an "a"
the next 2 are basically overloads
one is the case where the node is empty
and other is the case where the node isnt
this is so nice
in rust, you have this
enum Message {
Quit,
ChangeColor(i32, i32, i32),
Move { x: i32, y: i32 },
Write(String),
}
fn quit() { /* ... */ }
fn change_color(r: i32, g: i32, b: i32) { /* ... */ }
fn move_cursor(x: i32, y: i32) { /* ... */ }
fn process_message(msg: Message) {
match msg {
Message::Quit => quit(),
Message::ChangeColor(r, g, b) => change_color(r, g, b),
Message::Move { x: x, y: y } => move_cursor(x, y),
Message::Write(s) => println!("{}", s),
};
} ```its like a "switch" + a variant
"Quit" has no data, but ChangeColor has 3 ints
honest cipher
yeah
you can see its fairly similar
in haskell is a pure functional version, but in rust is essentially "switch statement but buffed to hell"
obligatory "match in c++ fucking when"
vernal kraken
that's underselling pattern matching a bit 😛
in erlang/elixir you can also match bits, bytes, etc in binary data
another reason why those langs/runtimes are so great at handling (text & binary) wire protocols
DgramSize = byte_size(Dgram),
case Dgram of
<<?IP_VERSION:4, HLen:4, SrvcType:8, TotLen:16,
ID:16, Flgs:3, FragOff:13,
TTL:8, Proto:8, HdrChkSum:16,
SrcIP:32,
DestIP:32, RestDgram/binary>> when HLen>=5, 4*HLen=<DgramSize ->
OptsLen = 4*(HLen - ?IP_MIN_HDR_LEN),
<<Opts:OptsLen/binary,Data/binary>> = RestDgram,
...
end.
(taken from the erlang docs)
honest cipher
ah, yeah
match statement both in haskell and rust lets you match a specific value
so in the example above in rust
honest cipher
if you do : Message::ChangeColor(1, 2, b) => change_color(1, 2, b),
it will match in the case the r and g are 1 and 2
honest cipher
c++ when
finite mulch
And here we are in C++ forgetting breaks 😅
vernal kraken
well, i guess it depends on what move is
honest cipher
no really, i could really use match statement in c++
finite mulch
^
honest cipher
just being able to "unpack" a variant
i have some WIP emulator in rust
where i was using pattern matching to match op codes
and damn thats so nice
like
Opcode(0x34, x,y,z) to unpack it
vernal kraken
xyz are refs then i take it
solemn lantern
once i get a hand on not being shit at compilers im going to try my hand at some sort of C++ subset
trim away some of the less used features and implement some newer stuff like a properly inbuilt string class
and pattern matching
but for now i just have to figure out how the fuck to get this shit working
plucky hatch
i wish cpp was more interesting
atomic fossil
plucky hatch
wtf is that lol
i actually meant that i wish cpp was useful to me because i would have motivation and discipline to learn it
solemn lantern
its useful for unreal engine because it is unreal engine
its usefull for many other low level tasks as well
and its one of the most performant languages out there
plucky hatch
yea its useful for game engine creators
solemn lantern
and for game dev
plucky hatch
i do everything in blueprints
solemn lantern
as its the best way of interacting with the engine
not everything is exposed to blueprints
plucky hatch
blueprints == code
solemn lantern
not really
plucky hatch
whats not exposed?
plucky hatch
yea but you can use bps instead of learning cpp
saves time
also i dont imagine always launching vs
solemn lantern
and huch of the stuff for HUD is gone as well last time i used it
solemn lantern
once you've spent a few days writing code it becomes way quicker than dragging out nodes
solemn lantern
vs also has it
plucky hatch
yea but does it know what can you put there and what not?
plucky hatch
i have touchpad
solemn lantern
oh god
solemn lantern
its 500x faster to type than use a touchpad
solemn lantern
typing is the fastest without question
solemn lantern
ah yes i forgot i have the memory span of a goldfish
not like we can do int variable = 5; or anything
that would be insane if we had to tell the program about the variables we are using
it just knows them all automatically without us doing anything because its telepathic
python.wav
plucky hatch
i see you prefer code
solemn lantern
that one line is way more consise than a sidebar plus dragging out references to the variable
spice dagger
Guys this is #career-chat, move it somewhere else. This discussion is not ontopic.
plucky hatch
Sorry
solemn lantern
whoops
fickle hatch
So about writing compilers.... 😄
finite mulch
lol
lilac walrus
it's not usually the greatest career choice 😄
finite mulch
🤔
sand shadow
Uhhhhh, I'm kind of at an impasse here. I both love programming, and have more experience with art with a BFA in computer Animation. I'm no genius, so is it unrealistic that I could possibly do both and be proffecient at it?
Let's just say I have no life, and am capable of making those two things an every day focus.
I've had this vision of a more organic approach to my interests combining the two, and I'm very intrigued by procedural generation.
mental viper
i dont know whats the demand for it but you could do animation programming (merging both interests)
sand shadow
Yeah, that's what I mean by practical as well, cause I would like a career...
Also, the reason for the indecision, is because I'm not interested in Animation but more on the modeling and world building side of things... I was more into layout, concepting. My "feels" are more towards creating interactive experiences rather than just passive.
mental viper
it also depends on your location
sand shadow
I am thinking though, instead of forcing the issue, I should just roll up my sleeves and focus on one thing that will get me in, and I think that's modeling and art
I'm in Florida but capable of moving anywhere.
I would like to work in AAA with companies like CD Projekt Red, Bethesda, Ubisoft, Funcom, Squanch Games etc. Any company that is trying something new and above the rest.
remote saffron
those big companies need highly specialized people, animation programmer is the closest to a mix you can ever get 🤔
sand shadow
good point
remote saffron
if you have good skills for programming and have background in animation it sounds pretty reasonable 🤷
sand shadow
I would weigh I'm more experimental, so I have thought about find a low to mid size company that allows more skillsets and input... Just can't seem to find what I'm looking for...
mental viper
thats what i hear in this chat often, that to work in the AAA you should specialize
tacit siren
in indie you do have to wear multiple hats, so might be a good place to test your interests
also, having a published game in your portfolio doesn't hurt when applying to a bigger studio
sand shadow
anyone have any resources to keep a pulse on indie groups and companies so I can make an informed decision... googling the basics like indie game community and the like, brings up pretty basic results... Kind of imagine there is more of an insider group somewhere or just someone with knowledge and taste of the best places to keept rack of?
good idea Zlo. I'm working on a portfolio to show my interests and skillsets. Thinking I could turn one idea into a sort of demo.
remote saffron
all the indie communities I have seen so far were on hobby level, simply looking up small game companies might work out better
sand shadow
i think i need to add research to a new skillset then 😃
remote saffron
it really depends on what you want to do tbh
if you aim for those big companies I would really just focus on one profession
tacit siren
only problem is when you list your interests from programming, over animation, 3D modelling and level design
best to test oneself before choosing a specialized path
sand shadow
i would like to aim for a director profession eventually, art direction is a dream. Like, Jonathan Jacquese-Belletete, or Barontieri... Funny thing is though, a lot of the Art Directors or Creative Directors I've looked into don't have a portfolio, or one that would even show they were worthy of being an Art Director. Jonathan Belletete, can't find anything the guy has done, and I remember him in a Q&A say that his "tools" were the other concept artists that work under him. His taste in things, really brought a great direction into the Deus Ex Games (newer ones) and really liked his ideas that were implemented. How do you get a position like that?
remote saffron
I was lucky enough to be totally hopeless or ignorant in most areas and kinda okay in one, so I have skipped this struggle
tacit siren
and best way to do that is to work in a small studio that will require you to do all of it, to some extent
remote saffron
are there actually studios which will ask you to do those things? 🤔
tacit siren
doing something as a hobby or for a living is not exactly the same, either
most will not mix programming with 3D art, no
sand shadow
I agree, that's what I want to avoid is the hobby mindset... I'd like to dig into this as much as possible... kind of obsessed
tacit siren
game jams though... just might
lilac walrus
you can mix 3d and programming by going into tech art 😉
fickle hatch
Tech art is fantastic
Write code, draw pretty stuff, but not so much that it turns into routine, design shaders
sand shadow
Well, I'll let you guys know a few things I've asked other pros. Jonathan Jacquese-Belletete told me I should stop worrying about what engine or software to use and all he cares about is Art... my other friend works in Thailand as a co owner of a small VR game studio, and his portfolio is crap, but he has this nack for good ideas and communicating them to other artists so he's more of a creative director~ I could do tech art that's true, if anything it will give me a taste for things. eventually though I would like a leading role.
fickle hatch
There are many different tech artists, but I think the most fun tech art is the one where you get to draw assets yourself too
Tech art is one of the leading roles IMO
tacit siren
leading role takes either starting your own studio, or years of experience
fickle hatch
Lead tech artists defines work processes for all artists on the project etc
sand shadow
yeah, and if i try the ladder i'd probably need some charisma to boot
Well, only one place to start, a focused portfolio where Art is the main interest, and I'll do the tech stuff for it on the side without putting it in the spotlight.
Thanks for the input guys i appreciate it
fickle hatch
Btw
Good place to get leadership experience is modding community
You can get plenty of basic experience, won't be enough for real life, but it'll let you take the leap in real life and start leading a small team at first
sand shadow
I think I have a curse. I believe anyone can learn to do anything and that talent in one area doesn't exist, cause youd evelop it, but maybe I'm wrong I dunno lol
I like that idea blackfox
plus it gives me kind of a Garage Band Feel to the process. What I found difficult with this though, is A LOT of people lack discipline... But, if I had good leadership skills maybe that could be a non issue lol
What games do you reccomend? I was thinking Elder Scrolls or Bethesda games because it allows for a lot of variety...
sand shadow
Those games actually, but also PUBG and Survival games are fun... I tried out modding a LONG time ago like you did for half life. Is using Source still a viable option if I want a career eventually?
fickle hatch
Sure. You're not gonna get a career in source engine, but source engine is a game engine with a big community that is still very active
sand shadow
What is the modding scene like for games like Counter Strike?
fickle hatch
Idk. I did maps and other content for Garry's Mod
If I'm gonna extrapolate what I know, it's probably still a very active scene with lots of new maps being made all the time 😄
sand shadow
Haha people still making youtube videos and animations with it?
fickle hatch
Yup
lilac walrus
Ark is a good option for modding - it has a pretty huge and active modding community (there's a Discord for that), and the editing tools are fairly complete
sand shadow
Plus it uses Unreal, so I could hit two birds with one stone, not spread myself out so thin
lusty turtle
Can attest, ARK's dev kit is no joke. It's right up there with TES game modding in terms of what you can do with it.
Be prepared to lose a boatload of hard-drive space to it though, the Dev Kit is some 200GB because it includes every single asset in the game, uncompressed
sand shadow
holy crap my drive is only 250
sand shadow
that's the problem i have a razer blade and core v2 setup... i could try installing a larger samsung sdd
ssd
i'll figure that out
lilac walrus
you're gonna need a much bigger data drive if you want to make games
sand shadow
son of a bitch!
lilac walrus
I have two 1TB data drives on top of my OS SSD
sand shadow
I know it's slower but can an external work for now?
fickle hatch
I use external drive for backups and archive
It works well
My dev machine has 11 terabytes of storage for the dev work
Including archive & backups
ocean harbor
@sand shadow join IGDA or similar organizations and participate in their events, you will meet a lot of indies face to face
flat gazelle
Holy crap is igda still around?!
ocean harbor
They have different charters, their activity varies
tiny palm
So I know this isn't exactly career related but I am a student of game development. This opportunity has been great as a moderator and admin of a successful discord server.
At a point now, as you can see, the devs are swooping in all of a sudden. "Give me admin privs" and I don't feel comfortable with that. I've built this discord up from no people, to 700 in a month.
I made this discord for them. But now, just before the iOS release, they want to sorta take it over. Any ideas for how I should handle this?
Worried that they could make decisions without me, or basically remove me completely.
hybrid phoenix
That depends
Fan-based discord servers are generally run differently from official ones
I'd say you say to them that you'd like to keep this community-centric, so you, as a fan, want to stay in charge. If they want to request changes they can do that and you can give your input and also discuss it with some other people, if they don't think that's good enough they can start their own server
That'd be my suggestion based on what you said
But really, generally speaking, if they have the community somewhere else as well, you don't have leverage
tacit siren
or they can pay you as community manager
hybrid phoenix
And the question is that even if you do, do you really want to do that
(I don't think I actually know indies with less than... Idk, 10 people that have a dedicated paid community manager. Seems unlikely)
(Personally I'm instantly put off by the way he 'asked' it, but that's just me)
tacit siren
i did get a feeling that @tiny palm 's ability to build a community far exceeds theirs
hybrid phoenix
Same, if only because of grammar and general language
But that's honestly besides the point here
He can always propose that, but I don't see it happening
neat jackal
I'd say it also depends what exactly they want. Just a special role in the discord with some moderation powers as well as to show they're devs, or full complete control? In the message it seems more like he "asked" for an admin role to be added to the server for staff rather than handing it over and kicking you out, though I agree the way they asked isn't a good way to ask it
hybrid phoenix
^
The thing is
As long as you're the admin
He can't actually do anything you can't reverse
And the only way to kick you out of an admin role is by you stepping out yourself
So if he wants you to step down and give him ownership, what I said before applies
neat jackal
Which, if it's just a special role to show "hey, this is a developer" and so they are able to moderate, that seems quite logical tbh, and they didn't ask you to make them owner of the server
tacit siren
well, a student of game design can get other benefits from a game studio, money is probably not the best way to go long term
hybrid phoenix
If he doesn't want you to step down... Wellp, you can always see how that goes
As the owner you can always kick him back out
You're the admin of admins
neat jackal
Looking at it from a dev perspective, if I had a game and someone in the community beat me to it with making a discord, I too would like to at least give me/my team a role to show "these are the devs" as well as a hidden channel to discuss anything that may need private discussion on the server (like discussion about channels or rules).
tacit siren
on the other hand, i don't know many 10 people studios with the branding manager, either
hybrid phoenix
With a branded subreddit I'd agree @neat jackal - but this is an unofficial(?) discord server
You can easily have an official and unofficial one
That entirely depends on the situation
So it's also a bit hard to give proper advice here because of that
neat jackal
Yeah true, but even on most unofficial discords I usually see a special role showing who is a dev if there are devs in the server - plus a hidden discussion channel for moderators is also usually present on servers and not anything weird, that applies to both official and unofficial servers
I'd say it also changes things how large the discord is/how popular the game is, as well as how many mods/admins there already are on the server
Because (to play devils advocate) I also get the feeling @tiny palm doesn't want others on the server with power to change anything - which, if it's a big server or a large game, can be a problem. If the mod team is too small compared to the size of the discord, or there isn't anyone else on the server with admin powers, that is a problem that could end up reflecting badly on the game.
hybrid phoenix
Right, but let's be reasonable for a second
The devs can discuss those concerns
And based on that make their own decisions; e.g. to leave the current discord behind and start their own official one
neat jackal
Yeah, as I said the way they went about it wasn't good, just saying their intentions may have been different than we think
lilac walrus
admins can remove admins on Discord, or at least they could in the past
hybrid phoenix
Afaik only owners can remove admins
tiny palm
This is intended to be the official discord, according the Lilith games. The makers of rise of civilizations
Mobile app
hybrid phoenix
Was that ever discussed beforehand?
tiny palm
I also created their Reddit community for the game and the studio. It was discussed. But the way he's asking does have me off a bit.. And it does seem fast or sudden. I want to protect what I've made.
There are other discord for this game but none as connected as mine. My server is linked through many youtube videos, comes up first in google searches and Reddit searches. Is on the official facebook group page which was made by Lilith.
Also started their wiki.
I put myself in this position but I imagined the wiki would be community run. It wasnt an idea I was committed to. Same for the discord. Im not against them making this some official place. It is just more of a concern about granting privs and making sure the discord doesnt get overrun.
im also not seeing anything that confirms if I could get booted or not
hybrid phoenix
If it is official and that was discussed beforehand then they should get admin privileges
I know for a fact that owner privileges cannot be changed by anyone
An owner is the be-all end-all authority on discord
tiny palm
I dont mind giving them the ability to do what they need to, but not sure if they need everything lol
remote saffron
as a dev I would be pretty uncomfortable with a situation like that tbh 🤔
but the fact that this comes for the way it did is a bit weird and alarming 😄
tiny palm
lol
hybrid phoenix
That, basically
Like, I can see where you're coming from
But in the end
It's their game
Of course they want to be in control of their own media outlets
It's theirs
tiny palm
I get it. Completely. But they should know where Im coming from too lol Ive got weeks worth of hours put into this thing they want.
I will be included into the brand management channel which is interesting. but I think they knew id be excited about that.
so they pitched it along with the request of complete control
remote saffron
well the stupid part from their side was not to discuss the issue with you but to request complete control and simply expect you to give it to them 🤷
tiny palm
and me and jet have had our own private channel for a small while to discuss things.
right
remote saffron
I get your point and I think they handle the situation terribly
tiny palm
weve only discussed everything else about what I can do for them.
They have given me 1 ingame compensation which was crumbs tbh. I dont feel like i deserve anything but I'm also trying to see what theyre doing for me in exchange.
As a game design student, I was/am excited about this position im in because I get to see how they handle feedback as a development team.
How they prioritize issues. Im learning very behind the scenes aspects, which I think could be valuable.
remote saffron
just keep in mind that you might look at the bad example 😄
tiny palm
haha so im here asking for ideas on how to respond.
just grant full control and see what happens?
i own the discord and some say its for sure that I will be fine/cant get kicked
remote saffron
I think bringing the issue up in private would be a good idea, but do it in a polite way
maybe they just did not think about your point of view here cause they were focusing on other stuff, give them a chance
not discussing is never the good way to handle any kind of relationships
flat gazelle
Without transferring ownership, you can't get kicked. Admins can't touch you.
neat jackal
So you said it was discussed beforehand that this would be the official discord, yet at the same time you're mentioning how much work you put into this and that you want to retain control over everything. Wouldn't you have already known though during putting in that work that making it official was the end goal? Plus, if I had a game and some fan of the game came to me and said they wanted to help create the official discord, I'd assume I myself would also be an admin on that discord (if not, it's community run instead, isn't it?). Plus, having a channel for the devs and discord mods/admins to talk privately is also very normal to have on an official discord, since if the game gets popular you'll want a way to talk about how to run the discord together. Idk, maybe I'm thinking about it too much from the dev perspective, but I kind of get where they're coming from (just going off of what you've said though, so I may be assuming something wrong). Also, while the way they "asked" was a bit weird, maybe (since you discussed it'd be an official discord) they always assumed they'd get those privileges and were just put off by not having them yet, could that kind of miscommunication be the case? Anyways, as others have said, as the owner they can't do anything to you, so you can safely give them the rights. Besides, even if they could do something to you (like kicking you off the discord), that'd be a really bad PR move for them, so even if they could they wouldn't...
fickle hatch
@tiny palm we work closely with our community, we don't directly control any discord servers or social network pages but the boring dry official ones. We let themselves call themselves official as long as they follow our policies on content moderation (aka they have a solid grip on not letting the communities become toxic pits)
I think community for a game should self-organize and simply following the company direction for what kinda content they post, how they tolerate or don't tolerate specific behaviors is more than enough to be an official server, it would be kind of not nice if the developer started trying to take over a community that was built up before them
Communities are built by people, can't just switch head etc
Just noticed this conversation from earlier, sorry 😄
Having a healthy community is more valuable than being called official, in the end
tiny palm
Thanks for all your feedback! River, I did mention that I didnt know for sure what would happen. I started the server hoping it would take off. I hadnt actually expected it to and honestly the conversation about the steps for that to happen never took place. It was a quick. I started it a month ago. 2 weeks later we Just hit 100 members and a Community manager messaged me through their games facebook account. 2 weeks after that (today) we pass 700 members and now the rest of the dev team is showing up. So far so good though. I granted admin privs. They dont have the ability to assign their own roles, just roles below them. They can create channels and I still have most of the control. "Of course channel additions and role assignments will be discussed with you/other mods" is what he said when I told him I would only allow these changes if me and my mods still had final say in channel additions and role assignments. "I’m not planning on adding any mods or external admins, only other Lilith staff that the discord is relevant for them. That is in order to make the discord more live and official. The more Lilith staff we have in here which can vouch for your work and for this discord internally with our superiors the more resources/time we can get to develop it even further". We will see how it goes. Got school tomorrow so I cant watch my discord creeperly for sudden changes.
hybrid phoenix
Sigh
Got in a call with some recruiters who thought they had multiple opportunities
(Based on online presence, work experience etc.)
They find out I'm 18
'Actually, we'd love to help you with development and keep track of you, but we don't have anything for junior positions like that'
My age doesn't change the work experience you were interested in
So argh >.>
Oh well
ocean stirrup
They turned you down because of your age?
hybrid phoenix
Basically
They mainly work with AAA-studios, so it's likely because of that
But basically, they thought I'd be able to get into senior positions
And then they found out I'm 18
So I'm not suitable for AAA senior positions
ocean stirrup
But they thought you were too young and assumed your age means inexperience?
hybrid phoenix
I guess?
That's what confuses me
They saw my linkedin etc. and liked what they saw
But as soon age came up it switched to 'we'd love to see what we can do for you in the future'
ocean stirrup
It's not like you're underage either
hybrid phoenix
Which is just sad
And annoying, because they could've spotted that if they read my LinkedIn more detailed :/
ocean stirrup
But it's common for AAA studios, well in the game development industry as a whole. There are plenty of teams who turn down young developers due to their assumptions of inexperience with their age
hybrid phoenix
I mean, I don't blame them per se, since it's largely on the AAA studios here
flat gazelle
And seniority is usually based on years you've held professional positions on a similar game.
*in AAA that is
hybrid phoenix
They have also said they'll keep me on the list in case they get indie stuff where they don't mind
But it's still frustrating because ya know
This
Is my profile picture
hybrid phoenix
And it states a single six-year education thing which ended this year
honest cipher
do you have cool shit to show? i havent even finished uni
hybrid phoenix
I mean, they were really giddy at the start of the call
And then that came up
And they backed out
I've got a project on KS which made 90k where I do programming, trees, lighting and world-machine stuff
I've got some random assorted portfolio things
honest cipher
thats more than enough
how weird
you also dont look 18 one bit
that photo looks much older than my profile pic, where i look really young
honest cipher
most of them dont, the ones that look at stuff are the studios
flat gazelle
But it was for a senior position right? For a junior or even an intermediate I wouldn't hesitate. For a senior I'd expect a pretty decent mobygames page to go with that CV
honest cipher
like this fucking idiot
i dont have java, anywhere
nothing about Hybernate, or Spring, or Boot, or Java, or telco, or medicine
flat gazelle
So I know you can mentor juniors and show them the way through the closing stages of a game
honest cipher
guy didnt even looked at anything
hybrid phoenix
That said, I'm largely not that interested in AAA-work at the moment
I like my small-time indie things
But still
honest cipher
want me to point you to the recruiters i was talking now? i obviously cant take all the jobs
ocean stirrup
He said "for a freelance Java developerto work" didn't proof read the message.
hybrid phoenix
Wouldn't mind
And @flat gazelle - there's no released games that I know of that have my work in them
Largely my own small projects and a single larger one
honest cipher
i dont think that matters that much as long as the personal projects are on-point
hybrid phoenix
Which was my first project, which we as newbies wouldn't let die
honest cipher
the 2 things people have really liked for me are the ECS shanenigans, and DWVR
hybrid phoenix
So that's still going
honest cipher
but around 50/50 in interest each
hybrid phoenix
Yeah, I mean, I really wouldn't expect to get in senior positions because of that
flat gazelle
Exactly. As a senior you would be expected to guide the work of more junior people, mentor to a degree and be dependable that you know the full lifecycle of a project and have experienced it several times.
honest cipher
to get senior in aaa you need more senior jobs or lots of XP in aaa
im not going for senior jobs either
hybrid phoenix
Right
Which I agree on
But that doesn't change the fact that my experience there is separate from my age
flat gazelle
No, I agree. But it does shift the likleyhood that you have the "relevant" experience
hybrid phoenix
Yeah, true enough
honest cipher
ocean stirrup
Unfortunately for a Senior position at an AAA studio they believe otherwise
Is he a real recruiter with LEGO?
flat gazelle
It's really hard to make those calls sometimes so I'm not surprised a recruiter would get it wrong.
I think my biggest hiring regret was shooting down a reel of someone who were just about to erupt and become amazing. Though to be fair, if we had hired her she might not have had the chances she did and become who she is now so it probably worked out for the best
honest cipher
yeah, i think the issue was that i didnt mention that the work i did as a freelancer was with unity
if the guy googled the name he would know
now i have (unity) after the project name
lilac walrus
I don't thank anyone looks at MobyGames
I certainly wouldn't
also that recruiter is worth ignoring
flat gazelle
I do
lilac walrus
Lego don't make games, they outsource them
you probably shouldn't
it's autogenerated and largely incomplete
flat gazelle
It's still the best we've got
lilac walrus
it's almost literally worthless, don't use it
flat gazelle
I'll hire my way and you hire yours? 😄
It's obviously not the main source of info but it can clear up things
lilac walrus
Nah, I'm not going to agree with that - you're literally basing your hiring practices based on what a trawling algorithm manages to pick up - and it's not even an effective system
flat gazelle
*user generated
It allows me to check what credits someone has. I've seen cases where they list themselves as a big part of several projects, but the credits have the listed as Additional x and Special thanks it does tell me something about who I'm going to interview
honest cipher
i checked myself and its super wrong
honest cipher
wouldnt trust it one bit
honest cipher
mine has the name from a shitty freelance job i got that was like 2 days
lilac walrus
hehe, last game I worked on isn't even listed on their site
hybrid phoenix
I dunno, I should probably just also put some of my half-decent 'prototypes' out there now
flat gazelle
I guess googling an applicant should also be avoided then?
lilac walrus
it also lists Kingdom Come Deliverance as by our company, which is wrong
flat gazelle
As that can pick up anything
When someone gets past my reel screening I tend to read up fully on them from any source I have. Mobygames happen to be one of those sources.
I'm somewhat capable of critical thinking and sorting
hybrid phoenix
x3
hybrid phoenix
Either way, the search continues
honest cipher
tho "vblanco" is damn easy to follow on all the forums
lilac walrus
heh, the entries for Peter Molyneux and Gary Carr are also out of date (and in th case of the former, still wrong)
hybrid phoenix
I'm guessing there's not really any indie recruiters?
lilac walrus
not really
most independent studios don't want to pay the cut to a recruiter, though it may still happen
but it's usually the same recruiters who work for everyone else, not just indies
honest cipher
you usually use recruiters for the hard to find medium+ jobs
if i want an artist, i just have to put an advert for it on relevant websites and i get swarmed
digital gate
Heh. Nothing like being approached for a job that requires more years of experience in a specialty than what I've got flat out, period
flat gazelle
Yep, the whole social presence does get scrutinized for tricky candidates
hybrid phoenix
That, basically
lilac walrus
my absolute favourite recruiter moment was someone who pretended to be family or something and got past the Lionhead front desk to call the colleague behind me (at his desk)
they asked him if he wanted a position at Lionhead to do the job he was currently doing and leaving
remote saffron
and did he?
lilac walrus
I think you know the answer to that question :p
digital gate
Oh and then they always wanna get back to me "next week" with other opportunities.
Just come out with it, you just blasted out the same contact with everyone and didn't even look.
lilac walrus
one of my other favourites is recruiters who literally copy and paste the job advert from the web listing
digital gate
heh almost all the ones I get do tha t
hybrid phoenix
To summarize; we all love recruiters
flat gazelle
Me and a colleague were sent the exact same personal message on LinkedIn. We sent the exact same reply. She didn't get back to either :(
remote saffron
what was the reply? 😄
honest cipher
probably the default linkedin "not interested" message
wich is the most polite "fuck you" you can send
"i give so few fucks i cant even be arsed to write an answer"
ashen lynx
There is a worldwide problem with recruiters. It is not restricted to gamedev or IT. Still getting calls regarding previous job on a weekly basis and to be fair, half of the callers are clueless or offering obviously substandard stuff.
flat gazelle
Hi Hurmus! I'm honored that you reached out to me. Thanks for taking the time to write me a personal note. Unfortunately I'm not interested at this time. Good luck finding someone.
digital gate
LUL
hybrid phoenix
Yeah, my sister's currently working as a Business Intelligence recruiter
digital gate
I think I'm just either gonna not reply or use a default unless their opening message mentions anything about my work
errant pine
Hi I am aspiring to be an environment/prop artist. ( https://www.artstation.com/cameroncasey ) I am trying to figure out what to add next to my portfolio. My current plan is to add a hard surface prop and some substance designer materials to my portfolio before I start applying to studios. I would really love to do the ritter shield/sword from final fantasy 14 ( https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/accimg2/06/a1/06a1acb35042d27454009c2a7863be83ea1d7ef4.jpg ) but I am worried that people would think that I just ripped the model from the game. I would really appreciate advice on if it is a bad idea to do something like this for my portfolio and any other advice you may have for me. Thank you.
ashen lynx
My opinion on this: Stay away from well-recognized models and concepts, unless you end up doing better than original/competitors. But overall, nothing bad about it. Your room scene looks good and states that you can fully maintain the mood of the concept. Try to push more details though. @errant pine
errant pine
@ashen lynx Thank you that makes sense and I will try to push the details more
@ashen lynx Are there things in particular that look like they especially need more detail or just in general?
ashen lynx
@errant pine Applicable to the scene, it looks overly smooth. You might be overdoing with chamfers. Bed and drawer are two most noticeable objects in the scene, yet their material work and/or geometry is not detailed enough. Lighting could use a tad more work to lit up the corners and remove overexposure behind the window.
errant pine
Those are great points I will work on that
ashen lynx
I might be biased, but I kinda always notice, when wood grain texture is placed wrong way on furniture.
errant pine
Thats true it should be horizontal I didn't notice that
Thank you for the critiques!
carmine siren
@formal grail You can just put your name and it will act as a sole proprietorship.
karmic kayak
this wouldn't be an question if people would read up on stuff.
rtfm. always rtfm. first.
bleak grail
I'm I the only one that finds it awkward when employers ask for "expected salary"?
flat gazelle
Sure, but it's a necessary question
bleak grail
How can one answer that? if you don't have any contacts in the business for example
flat gazelle
Just say what you want. In my last interview I said it straight. I need X after taxes to live. I currently make y. I want y+ z.
So they know the reasoning behind the ask.
hybrid phoenix
I'd generally assume employers have something they want to pay, so they can put that out there and then based on that we can discuss
They're in a better position to determine what would be reasonable imo 😛
flat gazelle
Now we are straying into negotiation tactics. Whoever starts with a number anchors the discussion
Which may or may not put you at a disadvantage
restive root
I don’t like that question. You’re setting yourself up for a fall either way (you ask for two little and that’s what you end up getting, or you ask for too much and price yourself out of the job).
Companies should have pay grades for varying levels which they stick too and are consistent.
However, my advice is to try and find out the average and ask for a little bit more, then be prepared to talk it down a bit. If you have special circumstances which demand higher pay (location etc), then be sure to include that.
flat gazelle
There are some great books about negotiating
flat gazelle
Pay grades do mean that they tie their own hands. If you want to poach someone, you won't have much luck if you have the same grades as the company you are poaching from
hybrid phoenix
Lol
flat gazelle
Never split the difference by Chris Voss is great
restive root
Grades also mean no internal conflict though. If you find out someone at your level is on considerably more or less than you then it can cause problems (I’ve seen it).
flat gazelle
The opposite can also happen. The ten year vet, with the same grade as the really talented first timer might get the same grade.
Hilarity to ensue
restive root
And it’s not always about pay. Other benefits / perks / circumstances / cultures make a big difference when choosing a job.
And if your company puts a 10 year vet in the same grade as a first timer, the grades are wrong.
Or the review process is wrong.
flat gazelle
Sure, but bad grade systems are as common as bad salary levels.
I'm happy for you if you found the one that works though!
ashen lynx
Feeling awkward during salary questions is normal at start. This feeling vanishes after 3-5 years of work.
flat gazelle
Yep
And as Phil said, culture fit is much more important than the perfect salary so get a feel for that first and it will take some pressure off the salary question
ashen lynx
Indeed. Job is about maximizing profit for yourself. And by far, not all profit is expressed by monthly paychecks.
Personally, I don't think that salary negotiations during interview is a good practice, though it is widely spread. In my view, it should be sorted during prior exchange.
barren lotus
You can ask about stock options during the negotiating too if it's an indie company
If it's a bigger studio they might offer a lower to mid range salary and say bonuses will bring you up to industry standard. But they don't tell you it's discretionary so it's not guaranteed, so negotiate for a higher base salary
The person above who said the first number to drop anchors the discussion is true, so have in mind what you need / think you deserve, and ask for something higher. It's easier to go down than it is to go up when negotiating -- you won't price yourself out because they want to hire you if you're a good candidate
honest cipher
allways overball
barren lotus
Also hourly vs salary has pros and cons you should think about too. Like hourly people get overtime pay and if you're working OT at some point you start making 2x your hourly rate for the day
honest cipher
ive overballed a few times on freelance contracts, and then turns out the guy was still fine with the price
on the other cases that the guy wanted to haggle, then i dropped to a more reasonable level
honest burrow
what if after dropping your number the employer asks something like "is that negotiable?" or something, does asking if they can't afford it an okay response?
employers can sometimes perceive it as "demanding" if you don't back down but saying that it's negotiable often results to a lesser number
ashen lynx
Answering no will result in two possible outcomes. Either demands will be accepted or the employee won't be hired. Asking if they can't afford that, if asked literally, is a bit incorrect and should be worded in a less direct form.
honest burrow
I mean if it was asked implicitly, would it be better that way or just immediately agree that it's negotiable?
ashen lynx
Most likely being sincere in this situation is the best way. If you are ready to accept a lower wage for position in question, no reason to hide it. Might loose a spot in attempts to sell yourself higher. If, however, you know, that the number discussed is really your salary bottomline and you are in a position to actually choose, feel safe telling that it is as low as it gets.
honest cipher
also depends on how in-demand you are
if you only got 1 interview, you got pretty much no choice
but if you can choose beetween 5 options, then overball and grab the one with the highest salary
salary also counting how interested are you on working there of course
karmic kayak
i'd choose the place where i feel the most comfy tbh. ofc money is an factor but not the primary one.
culture > money imho
ashen lynx
From my experience, culture varies mostly with people you end up working with, and least dependent on a company's name.
So unless you have a reliable source among the employees in a particular department, culture assessment could only be done on scanty info and rumors.
restive root
Yeah, the people really do make the company. However, you can also guage a company by what they offer to their employees. For example, my Brother has just started working for a company (not games) and the list of benefits is pretty significant, but more than that they have clear expectations of what to do in illness and it's all geared towards making sure their employees are happy.
lilac walrus
some companies will always try to negotiate downwards regardless of what number you give them
Bohemia were particularly rude in that regard ("We're just a small company in a poor country" - no you're not)
but pick a number that's a little higher than what you want and say it's negotiable
chances are you'll get the higher number you asked for anyway
pulsar badger
Really looking for a position somewhere. I need to make money in some way. Bad thing after bad thing led to medical bills and loosing my apt, my car etc. So looking for something. Any questions just ask.
acoustic zealot
@pulsar badger I'd advice you to look locally for a job, if your situation is as described. This discord channel doesn't usually have jobs piled up waiting
pulsar badger
Locally im not in a good position for any game development. Rural Arkansas US.
acoustic zealot
Well, depending of your level of desperation I wouldn't suggest only looking toward game dev jobs.
lyric cedar
yeah, if things are getting that badm maybe you have to work in another position
make some money and them look for something game dev related
restive root
Taking another, completely unrelated job whilst you're waiting to get into the games industry is no bad thing. Some people think that taking an unrelated job means they'll never get in to game dev and that's just not true.
plucky hatch
It's better to take a well-paid job then trying to get into the industry by taking a job in QA Testing. Bad idea. Really really bad idea.
If you get into QA, you are more likely to get paid really low, have to do overtime to survive, won't ever have time to develop other skillsets or have time to work on your own portfolio. QA Testing is death.
steel creek
plucky hatch
If this was a decade ago I'd say go into programming. That person would be very comfortable right now.
remote saffron
you can still go into programming 🤔
chrome bone
Heads of QA do really well.. sometimes almost as well as programmers.. so if thats your thing.. dont look down on it
remote saffron
I think the QA part really depends on the company
can be the worst thing ever in one place and pretty cool in another 🤷
chrome bone
definitely.
but if you excel at it.. you will find a good job eventually.
good QA is indispensible
plucky hatch
Heads of QA? The heads of QA I know were earning 16$ per hour
chrome bone
thats like a flock leader who also tests in the stuffy room.
hehe
Our head of QA was a german engineer
who was very very very very good at making sure the team fixes shit.
plucky hatch
QA pays more in software dev, but it's not taken seriously in video games.
chrome bone
Id say in the right companies.. from what i have seen
chrome bone
its still a very very good entry
hehe
if you are technical and detail oriented.
its a great entry
remote saffron
idk, depends on what you want to do
plucky hatch
I know very very few people who moved from QA to Design/Art/Management
chrome bone
invaluable while you are learning coding
ie.
while going to school.
gives you a lot of insight
into the industry
so you realize you might not like iut
it
plucky hatch
QA isn't a career path. It's the worst path
chrome bone
haha!
lusty turtle
Where did that mentality come from anyway? Where QA isn't taken seriously in game dev.
remote saffron
I would rather spend time on some serious sideproject, school is pretty meh most of the time in itself
plucky hatch
These days, you can go to school to get into level design, art or programming. Or have a strong portfolio.
chrome bone
well thats is to each persons preference.
remote saffron
also you can just be a coder while going into school, at least in the last few years 🤷
chrome bone
id never discourage someone from going to school if it works for them
remote saffron
what I say is that school + coding on own stuff is better than school + qa for company if you want to be a programmer
chrome bone
i dunno.. connections are worth it
remote saffron
and I don't see what else you could switch to from QA
remote saffron
every minute you spend in QA which can go really boring and repetative is time not spent on doing something more valuable
chrome bone
i would never discourage someone from doing it.
remote saffron
that's bs
chrome bone
its good experience.
chrome bone
hehe
remote saffron
if you are not into QA on the long run 🤷
chrome bone
sounds like we have different opinions
remote saffron
indeed 😄
chrome bone
😃
remote saffron
i would kinda stay with the "if you want to do X learn X or learn Y if it is direct requirement for X", that's all 🤷
if you don't know what you want to do
doing QA to see how a game dev studio works might be your thing, idk
chrome bone
I think breaking down the shine on the industry for yourself as fast as possible is also valuable
especially as a younger person coming into the industry
plucky hatch
I've worked 2 years and QA and 99% of the people in QA are stuck there in a vicious life cycle of crap. Low salary, working overtime to pay the bills. No future
chrome bone
no i agree with that but the good ones move past it
i guess the key is to aim past QA.
remote saffron
good ones can skip it too?
chrome bone
i still think its incredibly valuable experience.
sorry.. i should clarify
i was responding to those without specific skills yet.
or in the process of learning.
anyway.. i would encourage people to do it.. its like learning sales.
makes you a lot more.. hmmm..
aware of the realities of the industry
its not a career path
i agree
remote saffron
well if you have to choose between this and working in supermarket I guess it's better, but 🤷
chrome bone
(although some it is)
remote saffron
if you don't have to work
chrome bone
yes
remote saffron
learning your trade asap
is better imo
than doing something you don't want to do
plucky hatch
the smart ones just stay far away from QA
chrome bone
the work is good. just dont do anything else.
hahahahhahahahaahhaaha
i sense some baggage
its amazing people have that view of QA
startling actually.
our QA are deeply integrated in our studio
key members
Often trusted more than our programmers tbh when it comes to bugs
they know the systems better
hehe
lusty turtle
QA testers are the guys who make sure stuff actually works in practice 😛
remote saffron
weird programmers you have then
chrome bone
yeah right
plucky hatch
djjj stupid phone
chrome bone
ive seen enough programmers to know
they dont always understand the games they are making. hehe.
not from a gameplay point of view.
thats for damn sure. 😃
hehe. well.. id still never discourage people from teh exposure.
i know EA runs huge QA farms here in vancouver
remote saffron
anyway, that wasn't even the point
at least at the workplace I worked with internal QA internal QA guys were amazing, really passionate and their work was pretty cool
that does not change the fact that if you don't want to do QA doing QA is timewasting
chrome bone
and its good work experience for younger guys.
right. we were talking about unskilled people. I think they dont always know what they want to do.
or nearly unskilled.
remote saffron
that sounds like the character building experience 😄
lusty turtle
Can attest, volunteer QA tested at Primal Carnage
There was some growth to be had there.
remote saffron
the bs my parents used to tell me when I had to do boring shit work at home 😢
plucky hatch
I got into QA by curiosity. Got stuck with a 1 year and a half contract, completely random schedule, out of work and salary for almost a month because the company didnt have projects to test, etc. You are forced to take all.the overtime that you can just to pay the bills and feed the family. No time to find another job or build a portfolio. It is by far the worst career path to get into the video games industry.
chrome bone
i went the sales route. taught me so much that noone in this industry has much background in.
its been shocking more than anything tbh.
lusty turtle
Video game development seems like it's a really weird snowglobe compared to sister industries
chrome bone
sounds like a shit place yeah @plucky hatch
its is incredibly insular
ive been asked sales and marketing questions by guys who i consider my mentors because they were running $50-70million studios
but the things they dont know sometimes drops my damn jaw.
haha
you would be amazed but sales metrics are incredibly difficult to come by in this industry
super weird coming from other industries
PS i have always enjoyed hanging out with QA.
Fresh faces.. big dreams and opinions on EVERYTHING
lusty turtle
The book-keeping and organization seems to be kind of spotty for video game development.
I've got some war stories from Primal Carnage about both of those things
chrome bone
incredibly spotty.
ive heard some horror stories
from investors
multiple years not done taxes.
5-10million in sales
lusty turtle
Wut
chrome bone
yeah.. amazing. Steam hands over cheques to random indie in random country
random indie wings it for years.
lusty turtle
Just making stuff and not having a proper business
Which sounds exactly like what happened at Primal Carnage. (Can't speak for Primal Carnage: Extinction. Also a bit of a story as to why there's PC and PC:E)
chrome bone
random indie has dozens of sales channels that want to sell their product.
they never respond to emails
plucky hatch
It's fairly easy to get a job as a level designer, it's also random and it's a very messy department.
chrome bone
😦
level design is a tough one.
as people who might be good at it typically want to be environment artists.
lusty turtle
It's not a pleasant story as to how Primal Carnage turned into Primal Carnage: Extinction, I'll tell you that much
remote saffron
that depends on the game about level design imo 🤔
chrome bone
yes true
remote saffron
in some game level design includes more game design
chrome bone
ive only done large open world stuff
plucky hatch
In level design, if you know your shit. You'll work with people who will ask you to change your levels making them much worst and after they'll blame you for how bad the level is.
chrome bone
hahahha.. well our level design department has final word over their maps
so thats not a common problem
plucky hatch
That ca ruin you career very quickly
remote saffron
that's everywhere tho 😄
chrome bone
remember buying beer for a guy in a hotel lobby at e3
remote saffron
other people saying stuff and ruining our amazing work 😢
chrome bone
and he seemed pretty depressed.
plucky hatch
Many designers in the industry feel like... being a designer in this industry is like playing Russian Roulette.
chrome bone
and after we chatted for a while found out he hadnt been paid in 3-4 months
but they put him up in a very nice downtown hotel for e3
how insulting
lusty turtle
Sounds uncomfortably like the story of Primal Carnage
plucky hatch
lolll
remote saffron
he works in USA, right?
chrome bone
@plucky hatch cant say we havent gone through a few game designers.
plucky hatch
what's up with primal Carnage lmao
chrome bone
yes USA
plucky hatch
is it a meme?
remote saffron
not being payed for 3-4 month is not legal here 🤷
chrome bone
i hired a guy who hadnt been paid in 6 months
lusty turtle
@plucky hatch TL;DR that game was made on money it did not have, and eventually was subject to a hostile take-over
lusty turtle
and what they did have was incredibly irresponsibly used
and there was father-son drama at the top level too
merry tartan
if you arent getting paid for the work you are doing you dont have a job, go home and start looking for a job, don't work for free. you can wait a few days extra but thats about it.
plucky hatch
I visited a studio the other day that had like 3 employees, 10 interns. Was embarassing. is it even legal?
lusty turtle
But yeah, it was a huge wakeup call that a game can seem nice and thought out, but have a ton of blood and guts hiding behind the curtains
chrome bone
I actually went after the money for them and then they turned it down when i was just about to get the money
remote saffron
sounds like most game tbh 😄
lusty turtle
"At least the aliens don't fuck each other over a goddamn percentage." - Ellen Ripley