#career-chat | Unreal Source | Page 47

flat gazelle Jun 10, 2018, 1:11 PM

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Some engines are very different from the standard workflows like Unreal and Unity. Then it will take longer to get up to speed.

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But in general, most engines have the same underlying structure so if you know one really well, it's usually not that bad to pick up another one.

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Companies with proprietary engines will of course train you in them, but you are expected to learn a lot on your own and learn fast.

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No company will assume you know their workflows before starting.

kind rain Jun 10, 2018, 4:22 PM

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Guys i am 15 could you guys give me tips for the future to becoming a dev?

digital gate Jun 10, 2018, 4:40 PM

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@kind rain programmer or artist, or ____ ?

hybrid phoenix Jun 10, 2018, 4:40 PM

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To be honest, largely the same tips as for non-15 year olds

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Just do stuff and build portfolio

kind rain Jun 10, 2018, 4:41 PM

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Artist like character and land design and thx mr4goosey

digital gate Jun 10, 2018, 4:44 PM

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Yeah I'm more of a programmer. I'd suggest just working on your technique and also keeping your portfolio trimmed. You want to harshly critique/curate your portfolio because you need to work to overcome your bias - its your own work.

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Don't be afraid of diving into the technical side of your tools either.

kind rain Jun 10, 2018, 4:45 PM

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Ok thx

flat gazelle Jun 10, 2018, 5:47 PM

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Step 1. Figure out what you want to do and get back to us in a few years when you know for sure, then we'll guide you 😉

kindred mason Jun 10, 2018, 6:39 PM

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Make sure to eat all your veggies

shadow kelp Jun 10, 2018, 6:59 PM

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@analog moss studios using their own engines will expect you to be pro-active and get up to speed quickly. Learn by doing. You might make some mistakes. Case in point, I wasted a couple of weeks recently going down an architectural rabbit-hole with a new system, before abandoning it and taking a different approach. BUT, I learned loads about the related systems and am now the de facto expert on them in my team 😛

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it helps a lot to get efficient with tools like VAX so you can zip around big codebases quickly, as you're not usually working with any documentation.

ember gust Jun 11, 2018, 1:35 AM

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Hello guys, What are your opinions on getting a University(College) degree in something like Computer Science or Software Development for getting a job programming in the industry. Worth it or not worth it?

fading yoke Jun 11, 2018, 1:56 AM

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~~This question has been asked a million times in this channel, just use the search bar~~ Sorry I thought this was a different Discord server

ancient light Jun 11, 2018, 5:34 AM

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Me again. Please reccomend a cgi colledge with total cost of tuition under $5k and elearning or housing help

shadow kelp Jun 11, 2018, 5:51 AM

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a decent comp sci degree is very useful for programming roles...

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'worth it' though, is very subjective. Depends how much it costs you. Depends if you're one of the few people that is sufficiently self-motivated and driven to teach yourself at home (there's plenty of material)

kindred mason Jun 11, 2018, 2:23 PM

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ROFL

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Total Cost of Tuition under $5k

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I am hoping by total it's yearly cost not 4-year.

surreal rune Jun 11, 2018, 5:52 PM

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@ember gust little late to reply here but....you'll have a very difficult time finding a software development gig without a degree of some sort. every place i worked for has it as an absolute requirement, no exceptions. game development may be a bit different, though i'm just a hobbyist. game development i feel if you've done enough jams, proven your worth, you can probably get a job somewhere

shadow kelp Jun 11, 2018, 5:57 PM

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if you have a really good portfolio, and good collection of source on github/whatever, you might get by without. Definitely a big help though. There's a lot of fundamental stuff you cover in compsci that you miss out on by just picking up coding

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 6:26 PM

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Like Big O notation and how to actually read an algorithm for it's speed. That's like literally the first month

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And here we got a bunch of people who say they're programmers who don't know the first fundamentals about algorithm timings or math or pointers or.....

lilac walrus Jun 11, 2018, 6:37 PM

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game development tends to not care too much about the degree, but other software houses look for either a degree or credible experience

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 6:48 PM

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CS degree is one of the most uselless degrees in practise. The credible experience part works mostly locally, and pretty much everyone goes with "CS degree or similar experience"

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if you have stuff to show i doubt you need the CS degree, its not like an actual engineering degree

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@steel creek my university basically doesnt teach C/C++ at all, so the pointer thing is not there. The math is just super-academic math and doesnt show how can you actually apply it. Then the algorithms are done in a ultra-abstract way that doesnt work in practise either

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if i need to hire a programmer i would definitely not care one bit about degree or not, but about work experience/projects

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becouse looking at my classmates...

digital gate Jun 11, 2018, 6:50 PM

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wait hang on - CS but no C ?

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 6:50 PM

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90% of them are trash

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@digital gate none other than the absolute basic-ests of it in the first programming lesson

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you dont ever go past 100 lines

digital gate Jun 11, 2018, 6:51 PM

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Wow, that's actually incredible.

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 6:51 PM

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they do java

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becouse, you know, a CS degree should be more important than a FP course (professional school)

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and yet, the guys on the professional school, wich is 2 year, are actually much better prepared

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and eventually earn the exact same

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(CS degree is 4 year minimum, usual is 5-6)

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a fresh CS graduate is nearly literally unemployable

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lots of theory, but absolutely no practical value

digital gate Jun 11, 2018, 6:53 PM

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See I would have expected CS to be something where you do a C compiler, understand asm, but also get the theory stuff.

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 6:53 PM

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no compiler

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lots of compiler theory/type math, yes

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but actually applying that theory to build a toy lenguage?

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nope

digital gate Jun 11, 2018, 6:54 PM

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huh. wow.

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time to go build a toy language

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get that leg up

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 6:54 PM

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true

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i should try to do that

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its one of the things i dont know much about

digital gate Jun 11, 2018, 6:55 PM

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Did you take CS? No but here's this language I did

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 6:55 PM

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with my current simulation-engine-thingy im learning a bit more about parallelism and data oriented design

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📎 unknown.png

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240.000 dynamic entities lul

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still possible to improve

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i was looking towards fiber/job systems, like what naughty dog did to 100% parallelize their entire engine across 6 cores for their game

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or what Destiny does, where the whole engine works in such a model

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we have a class on multithreading in the university

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what we did

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was java mutex puzzles

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this kind of "no mutex" multithreaded is how you "actually" multithread properly and get linear speed gains

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the knowledge of that subject was pretty much useless

shadow kelp Jun 11, 2018, 7:02 PM

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CS degrees aren't about learning languages

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you learn about hardware architectures, different programming paradigms ( so you'll use a load of different languages, but not learn any in depth ), algorithms and data structure analysis etc

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these days you can pick up those modules on Coursera for nothing....so there's totally a way to learn all that stuff without paying for a degree

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if you want to get a job in the industry without a degree though, you're going to need the motivation and discipline to put in a similar, if not bigger amount of time and effort into training yourself and buliding up a portfolio

surreal rune Jun 11, 2018, 7:09 PM

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i would sadly agree that my CS degree is useless at this point, but it was a necessity to get my foot in the door sadly

shadow kelp Jun 11, 2018, 7:10 PM

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I got my CS degree when they were cheap though in the UK...on balance it's probably not economically sensible these days

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a CS degree gives you a very good foundation of knowledge to become a good programmer. Two otherwise equal candidates, I'd take the one with compsci every single time

surreal rune Jun 11, 2018, 7:11 PM

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yeah definitely, we already have enough problems with new hires who don't know shit, nevermind some "self taught" hire

shadow kelp Jun 11, 2018, 7:12 PM

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the code I wrote at uni was an absolute horror show 😃 You only git gud at code through experience though.

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quite a lot of the code I still write is a horror show tbf 💩

surreal rune Jun 11, 2018, 7:15 PM

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lol 😄 my c# code i like to think is pretty good. unreal...ehhh

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:25 PM

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@honest cipher pointers are not a C++ thing

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they are a computer thing

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memory is a thing

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:26 PM

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you only really use them in C/C++, the other programs dont really have them, or have them super hidden

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:26 PM

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as for a degree equalls a good engineer, no, I agree, it dont

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:26 PM

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i dont recall any information on that in my degree

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:26 PM

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but a good engineer will educate themsevles, all the time

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the fact that you say they have them hidden tells me you have used/use about 3 languages

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:27 PM

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wich lenguages do you know (commonly used this days) that have C/C++ "naked" pointers outside of "unsafe" type stuff

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:28 PM

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c# has em

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:28 PM

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inside an unsafe block

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:28 PM

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java has em

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:28 PM

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java doesnt

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:28 PM

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fortran has em

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yes it does

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go has em

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:28 PM

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commonly used fortran?

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under unsafe

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:28 PM

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pascal (if you still do this) has em

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yes fortran is very large in CS world

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banks and telcoms bro

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perl has em

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D has em

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:28 PM

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https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/207196/do-pointers-really-exist-in-java

Software Engineering Stack Exchange

Do pointers really exist in Java?

I read quite a few resources on the internet and now I am quite confused about the existence of pointers in Java.

Some claim that there are pointers and some claim that there is no such concept. S...

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java doesnt have pointers

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:29 PM

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"references"

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:29 PM

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it has their GC refs but not pointers in the "literally a memory adress" way

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:29 PM

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yes

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"close enough"

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memory is memory

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the concept is a CS concept

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not a C++/C concept

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In computer science, a pointer is a programming language object that stores the memory address of another value located in computer memory. A pointer references a location in memory, and obtaining the value stored at that location is known as dereferencing the pointer.

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:29 PM

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memory is really abstracted in java

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you literally cant put stuff on the heap. At least C# structs can be value instead of heap allocated some times

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:30 PM

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so, the point about this is, a "programmer" who comes to me and doesnt understand the concept of pointers, why and when and where to use them, is already at failure.

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same if they cant look at code and tell me "generally" what the timing is

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:30 PM

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you cant really know anything until you profile

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:31 PM

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sure you can

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that is the point of O notation

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:31 PM

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cpus are far too abstracted this days. O notation is not anywhere near precise

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it was, on the 80s

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:31 PM

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much like limits in Calc

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you dont ever sum the entire range, you "get a jist" i.e. jump to the critical

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lol

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wut?

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if a double loop exists, its still N^2 time

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doesnt matter how fast your clock is

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:32 PM

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i mean that O notation can give you the general gist, but its actual performance depends on the data and the compiler and the memory layout

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:32 PM

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the clock still needs to cycle n^2 times

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wut?

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:32 PM

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turns out that N can change, and people allways forget about memory being O(log n) in access time (if its random memory)

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:32 PM

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algo times are not about computer speed

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:32 PM

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also constant factors

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:32 PM

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they are about their own speed

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the computer could be a ti-99 or a 386

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that is the computer speed, not the algo speed

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clock speed != algo speed

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:33 PM

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well, a linear search can outspeed binary search extremelly hard on low values of N, to give you an example

steel creek Jun 11, 2018, 7:33 PM

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but they do have a relationship, obv

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:33 PM

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the exact cutoff where a linear search stops outspeeding a binary search needs to be profiled, depends on many factors

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on a very big list, the binary search is of course better

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i do think algorithms is probably the most useful subject in a CS degree btw

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but you can also do this

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https://www.coursera.org/learn/algorithms-part1

Coursera

Algorithms, Part I | Coursera

Algorithms, Part I from Princeton University. This course covers the essential information that every serious programmer needs to know about algorithms and data structures, with emphasis on applications and scientific performance analysis of Java ...

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and get the info

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i find university tends to go "too abstract" on this

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i remember that on the algorithms lesson, pretty much anything would be solved with "use a linked list, its O(1) on nearly everything, or a hash map". Wich is honestly bullshit in the real world

shadow kelp Jun 11, 2018, 7:46 PM

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if you're not going to do a degree, definitely worth doing those courses. I haven't ever seen a CV from someone without a degree that actually did any though

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I did the Stanford Machine Learning course earlier this year. It's a big chunk of work, especially around a job

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:48 PM

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i did the algorithms and the AI one

shadow kelp Jun 11, 2018, 7:48 PM

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awesome that you can do this stuff free now though

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:48 PM

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the "academic AI", not the machine llearning one

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yeah man, its amazing

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also Khan Academy

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literally better than anything paid

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the way the khan academy guy uses multiple colors to explain math concepts improves it so much

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and the fact that if a video is too hard/complicated, he can re-make it thanks to the people feedback, so the videos are all of a REALLY high quality

shadow kelp Jun 11, 2018, 7:52 PM

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anyway, time for our E3 show, see if anything didn't leak...

honest cipher Jun 11, 2018, 7:54 PM

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@shadow kelp "our"?

shadow kelp Jun 11, 2018, 7:54 PM

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Ubisoft

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watching these presenters makes me feel so old

snow yarrow Jun 12, 2018, 1:12 PM

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@steel creek in university we learned that "hardware" is never relevant for the speed of an algorithm.
I.e. O(someconstant) is always written as O(1)

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O(N+ someConstant) = O(N)+ O(someConstant) = O(N)

lilac walrus Jun 12, 2018, 1:17 PM

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this is incorrect, hardware is obviously relevant when it comes to the speed of an algorithm

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also, efficiency has multiple measures

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time is only one of them, but also things like space

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no point having a super-quick algorithm if it requires more memory than you have

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and certain algorithms that might read / write a lot could be greatly affected by hardware, whereas an otherwise less efficient one in terms of computational operations may simply be faster because it uses less

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Big O notion only really refers to complexity, which isn't really a very useful measure in reality

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since some computational operations are much faster than others, and such notation can't possibly account for that - hundreds of teeny operations can be faster than a handful of much slower ones after all

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then there's running parallel tasks which such notation can't account for either

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to put it bluntly, it isn't the 19th century any more xD

ashen lynx Jun 12, 2018, 1:28 PM

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@snow yarrow What you typed, is time complexity of algo, not speed, and is one of the parts, that contributes to speed.

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I can't however agree that it is not useful. It is core part.

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Pretty much nothing, you do with implementation can compare to decimating complexity from quadratic to linear, for example.

lilac walrus Jun 12, 2018, 1:38 PM

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quadratic complexity can still be faster if you're not reliant on something like hardware read /write speeds though

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I mean, it probably shouldn't be

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but nevertheless as a single measure the notation isn't that useful

ashen lynx Jun 12, 2018, 1:40 PM

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No doubt. Cubic can be faster than linear, if parallelized. Indeed, notation is a part of benchmarking, not a direct indication of speed.

mental viper Jun 12, 2018, 1:42 PM

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^ do you have an example?

ocean harbor Jun 12, 2018, 1:44 PM

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Well, using GPU for various computations for example

ashen lynx Jun 12, 2018, 1:44 PM

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Not for cubic, but for quadratic vs logarithmic I definitely have.

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A practical example would be water surface height evaluation. At certain grid sizes, bruteforce sum on GPU will be faster than butterly FFT on cpu.

ocean harbor Jun 12, 2018, 1:48 PM

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Some cases with sparse matrix on GPU in naive implementation can outperform optimized CPU implementation purely from parallelism

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@ashen lynx yeah, convection for example too

mental viper Jun 12, 2018, 1:48 PM

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i was hoping for a cpu vs cpu case

ocean harbor Jun 12, 2018, 1:49 PM

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Well then running something on Blade compared to i5 😄

mental viper Jun 12, 2018, 1:49 PM

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haha ok

ocean harbor Jun 12, 2018, 1:50 PM

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it's just GPU/CPU is a good case for a brute force done in parallel potentially having a better performance than highly optimized approach

ashen lynx Jun 12, 2018, 1:51 PM

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Same example applies. 1D FFT for n=16 done on single core will be slower than evaluating sum of 16 waves on 16 cores. But at this point, it is speculation. Don't quote me on that.

ocean harbor Jun 12, 2018, 1:54 PM

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but you need to take into account that when you work on a scientific paper for example, it's important to consider that implementation can vary and if you can demonstrate that your algo being O(N) instead of O(N^2) can produce precise enough results it's a definitive plus

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the other part is that big O notion doesn't talk about actual amount of elements, so yes maybe for some specific case your O(N^3) is faster than other O(N) algo but that is just specific case, which is not necessary interesting (to larger audience) or takes into account scalability

ashen lynx Jun 12, 2018, 1:57 PM

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Indeed. Crank up n high enough, and your implementation efficiency will quickly become just a small fraction of time, as compared to stepping down complexity.

ocean harbor Jun 12, 2018, 1:59 PM

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there is a reason why Google/Facebook/Amazon, expect you to know this things during interview - majority of systems that they are building are expected to scale out but not necessary know to how far. So selection of algo that can scale easily can be more benefitial than implementation that is faster in specific case

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or at least you can better understand the limits of what you are building

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The other thing I've noticed here is using personal experience as a measure for what is useful/not-useful. This is very subjective. When I started with CG back in 2000, you needed just some basic math to do most of the real-time work, including cutting edge. But nowadays things are different. You still can do a lot with basic math, but most likely you will struggle with implementing high-end tech.

ashen lynx Jun 12, 2018, 2:08 PM

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About overall discussion of importance of degree, as applicable to game development, people tend to expect being taught job skills. That is not true. You will pick those up within several months on first position. Degree gives basics and methodology.

ocean harbor Jun 12, 2018, 2:08 PM

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100% agree with this

mental viper Jun 12, 2018, 2:11 PM

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i agree as well

ocean harbor Jun 12, 2018, 2:11 PM

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I'm not sure how useful gamedev specific degrees are. I don't think it's something standardized to be compared with other subjects.

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But there are plenty of other things with high not only academic but practical value, like degree in CG, applied math, applied psychology, behavior studies, game theory and etc.

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someone mentioned that you can learn most of the gamedev online, which is true to only some degree

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There are points where luck of fundamental education can be a big roadblock, like high end physics simulation which requires good grasp on math and applied math

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I have now two part course on differential equations, just first part is almost 100 hours.

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let's imagine a 100 hours long course on modelling 😄

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imagine that this is just a basis for you to start doing proper skinning

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I might have a good example for this

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https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1279/Real-Time-Deformation-and-Fracture

Real-Time Deformation and Fracture - Finite Element Simulation and...

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this is from 8 years ago

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If you happened to solve this kind of problem in uni and had some practice in doing so, like Applied Math education. Then you won't have much issues with building a prototype or using it for your own game.

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what is more important is that shown approach can be used for a lot of other simulations, you just need to re-formulate equations but for this you have to understand what is going on. In next 10-20 years, this kind of tech can be become norm and it will be pretty hard to deal with it with just a school degree

mental viper Jun 12, 2018, 2:27 PM

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yeah, i think that having a degree/education allows you or gives you a good base for tackling some of the complex problems

ocean harbor Jun 12, 2018, 2:29 PM

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definitely

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on top of that there are other areas where the same knowledge can be applied

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We already at the point where one can get a PhD in Game Design, so it's become a proper academic subject. Eventually you might have to get a specialized education just to get started in understanding the subject. It won't be enough to "just make games". At least not in competitive way

steel creek Jun 12, 2018, 2:54 PM

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@snow yarrow you have/had a good teacher - hardware has no bearing on the algorithm

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again, it could be on a ti-99, a 386 or a modern i7 -- the computer parts have jack shit to do with the code

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its litearlly 50% the reason you learn in pseudo-code the first half year CS

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100% agree on the idea that education itself lends you to learn. Going to college/uni is not about ONLY learning your field. It is about learning how to learn. Technically you should have "learned how to learn" long before then, but college/uni gives you an oppurtunity to do it in a "more" controlled way than when you graduate and need to continue life.

tardy aspen Jun 12, 2018, 3:14 PM

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I like that #looking-for-talent the embed color is based off the pay type

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Unpaid gets the worst color

steel creek Jun 12, 2018, 3:16 PM

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well, its the worst condition IMO

tardy aspen Jun 12, 2018, 3:23 PM

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It is

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Do people actually take those ads seriously?

wispy crater Jun 12, 2018, 3:30 PM

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Lol that's an interesting observation henry

digital gate Jun 12, 2018, 3:47 PM

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Unpaid/royalty projects and whether they're taken seriously is a topic often discussed in this channel.

ashen lynx Jun 12, 2018, 3:59 PM

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Unpaid could be considered seriously. Royalty is the same unpaid. I've participated in two royalty share projects earlier. First paid off. Second one collapsed. But speaking about postings in this discord server particularly, I haven't come across any single more or less credible one. Likewise unpaid postings here are mostly jokes too.

snow yarrow Jun 12, 2018, 3:59 PM

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@steel creek Thats the only thing i can remember from Big-O notation. That O(1237893478278472347294831908423) = O(1)

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we had to calculate the Time complexity of several sorting algorithms in our exams

ivory atlas Jun 12, 2018, 7:46 PM

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is there any good examples of people that never worked in a in a big/medium sized company and then end up making good indie game?

flat gazelle Jun 12, 2018, 7:49 PM

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Jon Blow?

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Team Meat?

mental viper Jun 12, 2018, 7:54 PM

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Moppin (made Downwell)

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the Vlambeer duo?

kindred mason Jun 12, 2018, 8:35 PM

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Plenty of examples of solid Indies

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You don't need to have worked or work in a Big Studio to make a great game

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But "great game" or "good indie game" are pretty subjective

remote saffron Jun 12, 2018, 9:38 PM

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also what you actually have to do in a big company is not 100% help when you start to work on an indie title with a very small team

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or depends on the job I guess

plucky hatch Jun 12, 2018, 9:57 PM

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Do you guys think employees look at an applicants age? I'm 30 and currently applying for internships (i have to do them as part of my bachelors). Not a single callback :/

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I'm in software engineering and damn is it depressing.

fading yoke Jun 12, 2018, 10:04 PM

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@plucky hatch We're in the same boat. I graduated at the height of the recession and have gone from a fresh new grad competing against laid off people to being an unemployable wannabe with no professional experience competing for entry level jobs against younger new grads who have the advantage of work placement programs that didn't exist for me when I got out.

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Am turning 30 in a few months and the most I've ever made is 17k USD over 7 months of employment.

plucky hatch Jun 12, 2018, 10:07 PM

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where are you jfaw?

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I'm in Montreal - it's considered the hotspot for game dev here.

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@fading yoke

fading yoke Jun 12, 2018, 10:10 PM

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I ended up flying to Korea because of a $900 one-month contract and have sort of been here ever since. Last month I had an interview for a company in Charlotte as a web developer thanks to someone offering to put in a good word for me as a favor. After interviewing and doing their take-home project, they turned me down. My friend asked and apparently they assumed that I'd require visa sponsorship.

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🤕

plucky hatch Jun 12, 2018, 10:10 PM

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ah...dang well at that distance i can understand the struggle.

fading yoke Jun 12, 2018, 10:11 PM

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My choice was to either continue sleeping in Greyhound bus terminals or to fly across the world for the only interview I ever got.

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Maybe I should've chosen to stay homeless

plucky hatch Jun 12, 2018, 10:12 PM

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nah. you should def keep looking though. Maybe not necessarily in game dev.

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I think personally I'm just going to go into a job that requires c++ and keep my cpp sharp.

kindred mason Jun 13, 2018, 12:33 AM

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Age has jack shit to do with anything

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I had plenty of opportunities for internships as well as jobs during and post graduation. I graduated when I was 34.

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It's all about what skills you can bring to the table, plain and simple.

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@plucky hatch What's your website look like? How's your portfolio?

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 6:12 AM

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you're definitely at a disadvantage being older and applying for internships, no doubt about it.

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especially in somewhere like Montreal where all the big studios have links with the universities and will be able to pick and choose their interns

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 11:44 AM

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@kindred mason I don't have a website :/

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@shadow kelp yeah. I'm actually in a university where I am part of the co-op program. i guess it's a bit disheartening because I'm seeing some students who don't even have a portfolio be able to score interviews with the game studios within the co-op program.

I thought taking courses related to game dev (computer graphics, game engine architecture) would help at least score an interview but still no luck. they don't really look at grades either - so my assumption at this point is that they would likely look at what your course transcripts (ie when you graduated high school), when you started uni and from there you can get a good idea how old the applicant is.

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@kindred mason I agree that it's all about skills....but when i see some students who have had no interest in game dev, with subpar grades, but still able to score interviews, I just makes me have doubts.

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 11:54 AM

#

do you have to do an internship? It seems a bit weird if you're an adult student and already have industry coding experience

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 11:54 AM

#

or maybe my resume is just mediocre, lol.

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yeah i have to do internships. and I don't really have much industry coding experience - most of my experience when programming is within school, within a few game jams. I used to work in IT support before I started uni...so in terms of a dev portfolio, I don't really have a strong argument there.

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I think I'm just in the dumps so excuse my wine, ha.

#

I've been meaning to pick up some web dev stuff to build a website but most of my "portfolio" is just photography. Recently joined a student club and will be working on mobile dev/Ui/UX so I guess that's something I could add to my dossier.

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 12:00 PM

#

github ftw if you're wanting to program

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no need to waste effort on building websites

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:03 PM

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The biggest difference I see with a regular dev vs those who are in game/web dev is online portfolio presence. A few of my graduating friends don't even have a LinkedIn but they're working in the finance or uController industry coding in java/C++. Web/game dev seems like an entirely different ballgame - online social presence is a must.

fading yoke Jun 13, 2018, 12:03 PM

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I've been keeping my stuff on Github ever since like 2011 but I can't say it has helped me get any interviews at all

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:04 PM

#

📎 chrome_2018-06-13_08-04-23.png

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I mean...I have a github, but it's mostly for school stuff and running through personal, unfinished game dev stuff. It's mostly private, though.

#

I feel like opening it up to public would probably hurt my chances of getting hiring 😂

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hired*

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 12:06 PM

#

domain knowledge is more important in finance type work

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for gamedev programming, I would definitley go with github

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unless you already have your name in the credits of several titles of course...but even then....developing personal projects is still a win

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:08 PM

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yeah i think that's just the way to go.

fading yoke Jun 13, 2018, 12:08 PM

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@shadow kelp Do you work in finance or fintech at all by any chance?

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 12:08 PM

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used to, I'm in gamedev now

fading yoke Jun 13, 2018, 12:09 PM

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How'd you get into that industry/sector? I can't figure out what a resume is supposed to have because all of the job ads I see for it are extremely obtuse (e.g. "good at C++, good at Excel") so it's hard to figure out what's supposed to go on there.

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 12:11 PM

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I took a contract working away from home for six months to get my foot in the door in finance....

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there's a real clique around finance tech, like some secret voodoo that's required. It's bs really, you just need that one role in the sector on your CV and you're in

fading yoke Jun 13, 2018, 12:12 PM

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sigh

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:12 PM

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@shadow kelp do you like your working hours/conditions now compared to finance? I did an internship in finance (c#)....while the pay was really good, i felt like most of the industry wasn't really pushing the envelope in terms of tech (unless you were part of their "innovation labs").

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 12:13 PM

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wasn't really pushing the boundaries in fintech nope, it's more important things work 100% reliably than anything else

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I did some insane crunch in fintech, but you get paid enough to make it worthwhile

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:13 PM

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I've had more interviews related to finance positions but it's not something I particularly want to work in...I feel depressed :/ But then this is coming from someone who was an accounting technician who left it to go back to school for engineering.

fading yoke Jun 13, 2018, 12:14 PM

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For me, I'm taking the CFA Level 2 next week and I've never received a callback for any fintech or finance job

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:14 PM

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@shadow kelp yeah that's what I figured. the pay is nice...i think if I had a family and wanted to settle I'd probably work in fintech. lots of devs I knew stayed in fintech just for that reason.

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 12:15 PM

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I have much better working conditions and hours in gamedev though

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:15 PM

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@shadow kelp which city?

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Oh i just checked - germany?

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 12:16 PM

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When I was in fintech I was in London and Hong Kong. I'm in Germany now, which has completely different culture and approach to work life balance

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:16 PM

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Yeah that makes sense.

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I considered going to Munich to do a masters in games engineering at TUM after my bachelors....but man, I'm too old for that. lol. really need to just finish school and start working 😂

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 12:20 PM

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portfolio ftw. Saying that I lucked out and got into games with basically no portfolio

fading yoke Jun 13, 2018, 12:23 PM

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This raises a good question imo: how do you present your portfolio? Just a bunch of screenshots of stuff you've done with links to the source code and executables?

Is there a website to host it on or do you need to just buy your own domain? Is your Github profile not sufficient?

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:23 PM

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@fading yoke is a cfa designation really necessarily to work in fintech?

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unless you're specifically looking to hit a certain position.

fading yoke Jun 13, 2018, 12:24 PM

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Well apparently it isn't or else I would've gotten a callback at least 🤷

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 12:24 PM

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I have my own domain with a simple blog on it. It's mostly just links to videos and github repos

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:24 PM

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like....a finance analyst. but a developer working on inhouse apps?

fading yoke Jun 13, 2018, 12:24 PM

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I'm just trying to follow advice here. I thought I knew what I was doing when I graduated in 2010 but after 8 years of being ignored by the Black Hole™ I don't know anymore

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 12:25 PM

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understanding the instruments you're handling in code is pretty essential in finance. I got by with a pretty limited knowledge, but you need some for sure

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:27 PM

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well, based on my own personal experience in fintech - most devs don't have any finance designations and come from purely technical backgrounds. However, there are business analysts who studied comp sci and they usually hold the positions as the middleman, communicating business needs between the top and the developers.

#

they have minimal technical skills and it's more project management on their role, though.

#

i would imagine if you get a CFA it's more to be on a role of analyst.

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 12:28 PM

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there are positions when you can get by without domain knowledge, but if you want the big bucks and to climb the ladder, you want both tech and finance knowledge

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:28 PM

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yeah that's true.

fading yoke Jun 13, 2018, 12:28 PM

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Forget about climbing the ladder, I can't even reach the damn thing

red agate Jun 13, 2018, 12:43 PM

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Hey all, I was sitting down the other day and as I was watching my tutorials on youtube I was wondering somethine and I need your opinions.
If let's say a complete begginer (no C++ experience) starts with UE4 now. I believe there are several big areas that one can start focusing on. Lets say the big topics to cover are the following:

Blueprints (Basic)
Blueprints (Advanced)
UI and all available tools incl. landscape tools (such as vertex paint)
Materials and how to apply corectly (incl some blueprint)
Animation (import from Maya mostly)
Lighting compositing (if there is such thing in UE4) and build (last step of a game?)

Would you say that blueprints are the absolute basic to start with or maybe someone can start by making very quick tutorials like "how to make a small level of a game" etc? I am a little troubled as to what to do next as I have many interesting topics to cover and I feel like I need to get some guidance as to where to start from.

vivid pivot Jun 13, 2018, 12:44 PM

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Highly depends on your goal

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Beginner currently, but what do you want to become or achieve?

red agate Jun 13, 2018, 12:44 PM

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lets say i have a very distant goal to finaly make a game even if that takes 2 or 3 or more years

#

note: I am a professional animator and I have lots of experience on CG so maybe that will help later on

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I know I will probably need to ask help later on and I am willing to sacrifice lots of hours and probably money but I still need to make a good start and not lose time learning things that I will not fully comprehend. Hence my question in this group. I guess there are some professionals here that would give me a good direction as I would give to a new animator on how to start.

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 12:51 PM

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so you want to make the whole game on your own?

red agate Jun 13, 2018, 12:52 PM

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Nah, I will get to a point later on where I will ask for help from others but I would like to finish at least a level on my own to establish the mood and basic features of the game

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make like a first demo

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but Im saying again this is long goal. Even if it takes a few years im ok with it

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 12:53 PM

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you should make a very small game first and look into stuff you need for that, tetris/pong/endless runner scope small

honest cipher Jun 13, 2018, 12:54 PM

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@red agate my recomendation for a first game-y thing in unreal, is a twin stick shooter

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grab the template

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add stuff to it

red agate Jun 13, 2018, 12:54 PM

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That is what I was thinking as well. But even for that I need to start from learning something. Currently I know a liitle bit of everything and I started following some blueprints tutorials

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:55 PM

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This is coming from someone who is experienced with programming but still fairly new to UE - I think blueprints can be good but in the long run you’re better off learning from a c++ approach - mostly because I think being able to write up your own BP is incredibly advantageous as opposed to writing up a system manually.

#

The Udemy Unreal course from Ben Tristam is pretty decent.

red agate Jun 13, 2018, 12:55 PM

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@honest cipher I was watching that yesterday. Had some issues on the 3rd or fourth video. Maybe I should stick to it like you said

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:56 PM

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He introduces you to the basics of c++ and then slowly introduces BP alongside but never abandons c++x

honest cipher Jun 13, 2018, 12:56 PM

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@plucky hatch nope

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do not do c++ until you know blueprint

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ive seen what happens when people dont follow the "learn blueprint -> learn C++ - > use C++ in unreal"

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people end up confused as fuck in #cpp

red agate Jun 13, 2018, 12:57 PM

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it does soud easier to understand BP and then move on to C++

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 12:58 PM

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tbh I would go for learn basic non-unreal related programming

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then go for unreal c++ and BP in the same time

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www.codingame.com

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 12:59 PM

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Yeah but @honest cipher like I said, this is situational for me. As I said I come from a programming background. BPs are good though.

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 12:59 PM

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is pretty cool for basics

red agate Jun 13, 2018, 12:59 PM

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" non-unreal related programming" like java?

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 12:59 PM

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nah, c++ but not unreal c++

red agate Jun 13, 2018, 12:59 PM

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ah ok

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 12:59 PM

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get to the level where you understand the basics and what OOP is

honest cipher Jun 13, 2018, 1:00 PM

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@plucky hatch if you already know programming, then that makes sense

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 1:00 PM

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that way at least you will have an idea wth the thing u use in BP is, and also you won't be confused (wth is c++ and wth is unreal's +)

honest cipher Jun 13, 2018, 1:00 PM

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im using codingame.com right now for haskell

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good shit

red agate Jun 13, 2018, 1:00 PM

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Object-oriented programming ( I googled it 😛 _

honest cipher Jun 13, 2018, 1:00 PM

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im not going to actually use haskell any time soon

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 1:01 PM

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haskell in game dev, would like to see that

honest cipher Jun 13, 2018, 1:01 PM

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but learning haskell makes me better at C++ template metabullshit and makes me understand lambdas/algorithms better

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haskell type system is amazing

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actually strong types but nearly no typing and nearly everything automated, and if you want to not be automated, you can restrict to specific stuff, like a math function using Num

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wich then can be float, integer, double, etc

red agate Jun 13, 2018, 1:03 PM

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I guess I've started a very interesting but completely technical conversation there! hahaha.. I'm just gonna leave the pro's to talk about this and crawl back to my nood cave and play with my blueprints..

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 1:03 PM

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we used to learn about Erlang in university, cool thing

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but I kinda felt it to be not that useful actually

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enjoyed it but felt pointless

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 1:08 PM

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I think in the end all good programmers should be language agnostic.

honest cipher Jun 13, 2018, 1:09 PM

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@remote saffron erlang is a lenguage pretty much 100% designed for networking

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it was created by the big ISPs for their internal routers/servers/etc

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haskell purity makes it somewhere around 100% useless for games

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but i think it can be very useful for compiler type programs

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where you are parsing files and returning other files

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or networking/server stuff

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where, instead of "simulating" something, you are "translating" something

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a game is a loop of new_state = Simulate(oldstate,params)

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 1:11 PM

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I meant useless for me 😄

honest cipher Jun 13, 2018, 1:11 PM

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i was on a talk the other day

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where a cloud company was talking about their migration from C to Scala

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they said they went from 200.000 lines of code, to 30.000

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 1:12 PM

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that sounds impressive, but depends on those lines of course 🤔

honest cipher Jun 13, 2018, 1:12 PM

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and with massive levels of parallelism

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so it was much, much stronger than the C code

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parallelism over multiple servers and that kind of thing

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its very important to learn as many lenguages as you can

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to improve as a programmer

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knowledge of a new lenguage improves your skill at others

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 1:24 PM

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Different tools for different tasks. I think programming today is different from how it was 15 years ago. Specializing in one language isn't really considered that great.

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Like man web dev is moving so fast. I haven't done it since 2003 and it's wayyyyy different now with all these frameworks.

honest cipher Jun 13, 2018, 1:31 PM

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webdev is just insane

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 1:32 PM

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i had to do some tools stuff in JS last year. The framework buzzword madness is literally insane

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 1:33 PM

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it's where all the money is now. In Montreal, someone who comes out of a 3 year technical program can make 50-60k$ CAD annually going straight into web dev right now.

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and it's not even a bachelors.

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 1:34 PM

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yeah no shortage of work on that front. Can't be dealing with it myself

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 1:34 PM

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i don't know much about web dev. still need to run through the udemy course i bought so i could at least get the basics down.

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i like how JS used to be shat on 15 years ago and now it's like...more in demand than ever, lol. I didn't expect that.

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 1:35 PM

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gamedev is vastly more interesting, there's actually interesting problems to solve

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most enterprise/web type dev is a solved problem these days, just people faffing about with trendy frameworks

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 1:36 PM

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yeah....in gamedev it's the first time i've found myself applying concepts of physics and maths that i learn from my engineering courses into graphics programming.

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 1:36 PM

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or <insert latest buzzword management got hold of this week>

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 1:37 PM

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it doesn't get the respect it deserves. all my friends in uni are telling me that it's not worth going into gamedev haha. it's the "art world" of software dev.

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 1:37 PM

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it's just interesting tech. Nothing is a solved problem, it's much more challenging

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 1:38 PM

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i'd love to do more tools programming or game engine related stuff....or graphics programming.

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more than the actual game design process.

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 1:39 PM

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webdev... I would not survive a day working on that area

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best part of programming is game engine, e.g. graphics imo

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tool programming can be too much UI

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 1:40 PM

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i love UI work. guess it depends on my mood.

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 1:41 PM

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depends on framework 😄

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oh wait nope I have never used a good one

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I kinda feel a satisfaction when I have to use university level math during work

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when all my problem is related to how to position controls the way they are supposed to

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I end up wanting to kill myself

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 1:42 PM

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same. It's like actually applying the stuff i learned in school to something i enjoy.

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learning the graphics pipeline and all that was super challenging but it was satisfying.

honest cipher Jun 13, 2018, 1:44 PM

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@remote saffron where you do work?

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i have FAR too much fun doing tech for tech sake, so i would like an engine dev job

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http://victor.madtriangles.com/code experiment/2018/06/11/post-ecs-battle-huge.html just look at stuff like this lol

Victors Blog

Code: Space Battle, Huge edition

After getting bottlenecked by UE4 on the last ECS battle simulation Link , I decided to create one on direct C++,using an engine written by me. The new simulation simulates 130.000 entities at 60 fps on my Ryzen machine. It is designed in a way that it almost scales linearly ...

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why? for the hell of it

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doing that i also found one thing

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unity ECS is unbeatable

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even using C++

#

fukin hell

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 1:45 PM

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haha I can understand that

atm I don't work anywhere, im working full time on own game since this january
most likely I won't make it economically to make a second game tho, I think I'll try to go back to engine dev after this

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gameplay programming is only fan if i have control in game design 😄 and even in that I prefer the game design part actually

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 1:46 PM

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I'm not a hardcore enough programmer to do engine stuff ;P

honest cipher Jun 13, 2018, 1:46 PM

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but you are doing pretty interesting stuff with your 3d pathfinding stuffs

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 1:46 PM

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I like gameplay programming...it's messier, and you're hacking a lot of stuff together, but's satisfying

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when people start having hardcore C nerd arguments, my eyes glaze over

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 1:47 PM

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I thought I would enjoy game design but after actually doing it, I found myself just enjoying implementing features rather than coming up with them.

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 1:47 PM

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screw that, I just like making stuff do stuff

remote saffron Jun 13, 2018, 1:47 PM

#

depends on game tbh

#

if there are interesting problems to solve, im fine with that

shadow kelp Jun 13, 2018, 1:48 PM

#

you do a lot of design work as a gameplay programmer, there's a lot of overlap

#

you certainly have to do a lot of informing designers about what is and isn't possible, suggesting things that could be done cheap etc

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 1:50 PM

#

yeah that's true.

#

i was working with a few friends to develop a JRPG game and they wanted to implement like 20 mechanics into the battle system and wanted it done within 6 months with 1 programmer. scoping is important.

honest cipher Jun 13, 2018, 1:51 PM

#

with proper architecture, thats perfectly possible

#

what its going to be literally impossible is to actually balance that

#

most rpg features are pretty trivial to implement. You can create pokemon combat system in barely a few days

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 1:52 PM

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yeah but for free? 😛

honest cipher Jun 13, 2018, 1:52 PM

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lmao

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 1:52 PM

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exactly XD

wild solstice Jun 13, 2018, 1:54 PM

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haha, glad i'm not the only one who is WTF at the endless webdev frameworks these days

#

did some webdev early 2000'

#

feel like an old relic now with the framework craze

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 1:55 PM

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webdev in 2000 was weiiiiiiiird. i think that was when new HTML/CSS features were rolling out and i remembered these high schoolers creating blogs that had small text font 3 but with a super pretty background and lots of frames

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felt like webdev went through a phase back then.

wild solstice Jun 13, 2018, 1:57 PM

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i mostly did html / php with a sprinkle of JS.. I started using css a bit later

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but yeah it was weird back than,.. but way simpler

#

now it feels overwhelming trying to get on top of what's what

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it's like 80% of local job postings here are for some new framework i've never heard of

plucky hatch Jun 13, 2018, 2:01 PM

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yeah...can be intimidating.

sour pulsar Jun 13, 2018, 2:39 PM

#

Hey everyone. Just had a quick question: is it normal for non-disclosure agreements to have confidential information sections that never expire?

#

I’m fairly new to the industry so I’m unfamiliar with what the standard kind of NDA is like

digital gate Jun 13, 2018, 2:44 PM

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that's fairly common, yes, but it should also define what that is explicitly and then also clarify that anything you'd already known is exempt. Most of the agreement duration stuff refers to the period of time when new information they give you falls under the NDA.

ashen lynx Jun 13, 2018, 2:53 PM

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It is quite common indeed.

sour pulsar Jun 13, 2018, 2:54 PM

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It does explicitly define what the confidential information is and the exceptions for it actually, so that is good for that part. I consulted with a lawyer and several other people and that seemed to be one of the main points of concern, but these are people that aren't familiar with the game industry so

#

I just wanted to hear from people that are familiar with these kinds of agreements, so thank you two for your advice

ashen lynx Jun 13, 2018, 3:11 PM

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@sour pulsar most of the contracts I've signed had perpetual NDA or likewise, a clause about it. No reason to be alarmed by it. Just keep in mind, that if you are laying down such contract with a large entity under a flag, that can actually enforce it, it is better to engage as LLC or equivalent, not as individual.

sour pulsar Jun 13, 2018, 3:20 PM

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Alright. Thank you so much! I'll look more into the company to decide whether the LLC would be necessary or not, but since it's a fairly small company I believe it should be okay? I'll re-evaluate everything and carefully consider it though to be safe

hybrid phoenix Jun 13, 2018, 7:25 PM

#

It really infuriates me that VR makes me sick

#

So many awesome VR-offers

urban stump Jun 15, 2018, 5:01 PM

#

<@&213101288538374145>

upbeat comet Jun 15, 2018, 5:01 PM

#

Ok why

urban stump Jun 15, 2018, 5:01 PM

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#old-rules

gentle pewter Jun 15, 2018, 5:09 PM

#

😉

upbeat comet Jun 15, 2018, 5:16 PM

#

Sorry

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 8:23 AM

#

let's say I want to hire a freelancer for a job

is it normal that he/she asks a lot of questions but simply ignores the ones I ask?
I don't have much experience hiring but this is the second time I see this
sounds like a big no way for me, as how the hell could I work with (and pay) someone who simply ignores me, communication level isn't the one I am aiming for 🤔

honest cipher Jun 16, 2018, 8:25 AM

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@remote saffron you are doing well

#

another tip for a freelancer. If you are looking to find the best of a few candidates, hire them ALL to do a very small task

#

so, if its an art, have them do a small model that wouldnt take too much

#

for a programmer, a small part of what you want him to actually do

#

that way you will know if they do stuff on time and the prices, and the skill

#

of course, it will cost money. But then you will get the best guy from the set

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 8:27 AM

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all of them should do the same, right?

#

so you can compare

honest cipher Jun 16, 2018, 8:27 AM

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or something similar

#

for example, i did that when i was looking for concept artists

#

i put a few job ads, and got around 20-30

#

of those, i filtered to 6

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and then i hired each of them to make me a concept for a spaceship environment in 1 hour

#

with 1 hour pay

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 8:29 AM

#

did you tell them what it is about?

honest cipher Jun 16, 2018, 8:29 AM

#

yes

#

i wanted to see their style

#

so i gave them a fairly broad overview

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 8:29 AM

#

I mean that they are doing this work to see how well they work

honest cipher Jun 16, 2018, 8:29 AM

#

yes

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 8:29 AM

#

isn't there a chance that some of them will cheat?

honest cipher Jun 16, 2018, 8:30 AM

#

yes

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 8:30 AM

#

spend more time on the stuff to get the bigger offer

honest cipher Jun 16, 2018, 8:30 AM

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i only paid 1 hour to each

#

if they spent more time, then thats their issue

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 8:31 AM

#

yeah but if you hire them because you expect them more than they are capable of that will be yours as well

#

guess you can just fire them so maybe it does not pay out wall for neither of you at the end

honest cipher Jun 16, 2018, 8:31 AM

#

its freelancing

#

i literally hire them on the individual drawings

#

so if they made a decent drawing at 1 hour for 20 dollars, i pay them 100 dollars and tell the guy to give me 5 similar concepts

#

worked very well

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 8:32 AM

#

I wanted to do something like this for composers earlier this year, but hey, I canceled the thing because I had 2 possible candidates and the communication skills/style of one of them turned out to be so ridiculous that I just stopped the process after I told them that I wanted to do this and hired the other one

#

and he worked out pretty great

honest cipher Jun 16, 2018, 8:32 AM

#

composers gonna compose

#

you do well to just ignore the guy who is annoying to work with

ashen lynx Jun 16, 2018, 8:33 AM

#

From my experience, doing job offers through freelancing web sites was catastrophic. Contacting freelancers with good reputation directly yields better results.

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 8:34 AM

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I did not use sites yet

honest cipher Jun 16, 2018, 8:34 AM

#

i did not go through the typical freelancing websites

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 8:34 AM

#

just contacted people directly

honest cipher Jun 16, 2018, 8:34 AM

#

i really, really dont like them

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 8:35 AM

#

the one I ended up hiring for music wasn't even looking for work actively, I just knew his work and kinda liked it so contacted him if he would be interested

ashen lynx Jun 16, 2018, 8:36 AM

#

As for asking many questions, that would probably depend on the job. It is somewhat irritating to pull information from a client as a freelancer, especially if something technical is concerned.

honest cipher Jun 16, 2018, 8:36 AM

#

can confirm

ashen lynx Jun 16, 2018, 8:36 AM

#

What kind of questions you could ask a freelancer, that he would ignore though ?

honest cipher Jun 16, 2018, 8:36 AM

#

specially bad as a programmer where you actually really need the details

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 8:39 AM

#

situation now was with a writer, questions ignored were things like where is he/she from, (he/she asked the same and we answered), is he/she interested in proofreading only or actually writing stuff, things like that

#

I don't have a problem if someone asks too many questions, but even after 3-4 mails there wasn't a single question answered from his/her part

#

back in the days the composer in a later stage ignored questions about deadlines and when we offered him 2 different alternatives he did not pick one, only sayed "that's cool"

ashen lynx Jun 16, 2018, 8:44 AM

#

Strange thing to ask, to be fair. If you found his her contacts somewhow, those should have pretty much answered basic questions about location and background. Reminded me of a case, where I contacted Norwegian artist. During skype conversion his Norwegian english was pretty poor. Back in the day hanzresolver was working and I traced skype to India.

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 8:45 AM

#

😄

#

obviously he was in holiday there

ashen lynx Jun 16, 2018, 8:50 AM

#

Clearly. With writers though, I tend to think that you almost always want a native speaker, but can't say anything constructive. Dealt with 3d content mostly.

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 8:53 AM

#

yeah it will be either native speaker or a cheap but skilled local, depends on the persons we can find and the money we will put into writing

hybrid phoenix Jun 16, 2018, 10:01 AM

#

I mean, I'm not native, but I've got pretty damn solid English

#

The odds of a non-native speaking solid English are just lower than the odds of a native speaking solid English

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 10:07 AM

#

yeah but in my case it is not really about speaking, it is about writing

#

still if someone proves his english writing knowledge I won't turn him off just cause he is not native, I guess you have a point there

tropic patrol Jun 16, 2018, 5:29 PM

#

Hey, im 16 and i want to go into game development as a career, can anyone give me some advice for me to get started

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 5:41 PM

#

are you good at math?

#

can you draw?

ashen lynx Jun 16, 2018, 5:41 PM

#

My advice would be to pick a different career, work up some base capital. At that point you can be free to do whatever you want in all respects. If that is not the answer you were looking for and you are firm on entering labor market as a gamedev-related specialist, you need to decide the direction.

remote saffron Jun 16, 2018, 5:42 PM

#

if you are good at math computer science/software enginneer is a good way to start imo

#

easy to get into gamedev with those and if you regret that later you have a stable way out

steel creek Jun 16, 2018, 6:33 PM

#

@tropic patrol ask yourself one simple question: What is the first constructive thing I want to do when I wake up in the morning?

This will lead you to what you love to do -- the next question to ask: Do the things I love/like to do fit with some existing job

This is a harder one, but, you now have a starting place to list your wants and desires.

From that list you can then start to focus on showcasing, and continuing to build, the overlapping skills of said desires, and use it as a more focused question (externally): "With my current desires and list of skills, what part of <insert industry> would be benefit from my current skills, and allow me to grow?"

YMMV

tropic patrol Jun 16, 2018, 6:34 PM

#

Thanks @steel creek

winged fable Jun 16, 2018, 8:25 PM

#

In regards to all the freelancing / communication discussion.; I've been freelancing as a 3D artist for 3 years now and the best piece of advice I can give you is get out of emails and get to discord or Skype ASAP! Don't be afraid get on a call and talk. Bad communication is really destructive for both sides of the job.

hybrid phoenix Jun 16, 2018, 9:13 PM

#

^I hate mails for that reason, it's usually not really a conversation as much as just loosely related points being made

honest cipher Jun 17, 2018, 10:01 AM

#

emails do not work

#

too slow

#

chat works the best

#

becouse its fast written, and then it can be scrolled up to read details

hybrid phoenix Jun 17, 2018, 10:09 AM

#

For complex stuff I tend to do calls while taking notes

steel creek Jun 17, 2018, 8:18 PM

#

even for simple stuff. Talking is the only way to clearly design -- or a shared whiteboard space (in the least).

stiff hawk Jun 18, 2018, 1:37 AM

#

Hi, I'd like my job to be modeling and putting stuff into levels. Not really designing the play area or how a map would flow gameplay wise, but instead making it look nice. What is the pipeline for what I want to do like?

fading yoke Jun 18, 2018, 2:13 AM

#

@stiff hawk Environment Art is the vocabulary word that you want to go search for on Google

unique forge Jun 18, 2018, 3:58 PM

#

Heyy!!
I need SERIOUS HELP!!
When i try to open Unreal it gives me error 'this application was unable to start correctly (0xc000007b), Click ok to close the app.'

karmic kayak Jun 18, 2018, 4:00 PM

#

There is no (absolutely no) need to post your issue in completely unrelated channels.

steel creek Jun 18, 2018, 5:38 PM

#

monkaSheep

tender bolt Jun 19, 2018, 1:38 AM

#

Hello! :D
I would love it if anyone could put me on the correct path to get proficient in C++ !
like not C++ only with regards to game dev and unreal... but C++ as a language.
i would like to know if there is a streamlined way... or the necessary concepts i would need to learn to get to expert level in C++.
i am probably still a beginner. Know basic stuff like iterations, lopping..functions and classes....

#

please be my sensei! 😄

fading yoke Jun 19, 2018, 1:42 AM

#

@tender bolt I think that your goal should be to be able to solve a few of those programming problems on those interview prep sites in C++, like leetcode or project euler or code wars. In order to be able to do that, you have to learn some basics and whatnot, and there are hundreds and hundreds of videos on Youtube that can help you with that, as well as probably thousands of blogs and articles as well.

#

imo if you're good enough to be able to solve a couple of those programming problems on those interview prep sites with C++ then you're probably good enough to get started doing Unreal stuff with C++ though it's mostly a separate learning curve imo

tender bolt Jun 19, 2018, 1:48 AM

#

hmm okay okay....
yeah thats what i am currently doing... mostly youtube and codechef / hackerrank and stuff. But i feel like most of codechef is related to programming logic.... and is independent of the language u are using.... i might be wrong.
i do try solving them in C++ but what im hoping for is like the core concepts that i can use to leverage the power of C++... the stuff that differentiates it from other programming languages like Java... or python.
youtube is what i am doing now... and yea it has millions of videos which gets me very confused sometimes. i end up getting lost and not knowing what to learn in the end! this is probably my fault..... 😓

#

so u have generic collections and the collections framework in Java that makes arrays and lists super ez and more structured for you to use right.. which essentially gives you a boost in java development..... i wanna learn stuff like that in C++

#

i wasnt able to find any so far... but i am sure there are things out there that make C++ awsome

digital gate Jun 19, 2018, 1:53 AM

#

wondering which places you're going in order to pick up C++ which wouldn't mention std

#

are you looking for something more than that?

tender bolt Jun 19, 2018, 2:00 AM

#

yo thats the thing... i dont know what im looking for....and hence dont know where to go...cuz i dont know what im looking for ! 😓 😓
sorry for being so stupid 😓 😰

digital gate Jun 19, 2018, 2:00 AM

#

Right. Ok.

#

So

#

you know how in a lot of C++ tuts they do a thing

#

using namespace std; ?

#

well there's a whole lib of stuff

mental viper Jun 19, 2018, 2:02 AM

#

when you google cpp list, first result is std implementation of list

tender bolt Jun 19, 2018, 2:04 AM

#

the java lists thing was an example... like how java has collections... would love to know stuff in C++... not stuff a daily programmer would be searching for...but stuff if he knows will make him more powerful.....

#

yea but i guess this is a good start for me

#

ill focus on learning the standard library

#

and all its functions and stuff....

#

will get me one step closer 😄

shadow kelp Jun 19, 2018, 6:07 AM

#

make stuff. Make stuff in Unreal. Do a system that can scale, and then push it as far as you can while retaining 60fps. You'll need to learn how to profile and optimise.

vernal kraken Jun 19, 2018, 8:49 AM

#

@tender bolt do a small project in c++; best if it's something in an area that interests you, so you keep motivation up

#

like write a simple (web) server, image transcoder, whatever

tender bolt Jun 20, 2018, 5:19 AM

#

Yea!! Will try working on a project !! Thanx for the advice! 😄

plucky hatch Jun 22, 2018, 11:23 AM

#

also game dev specifically requires you to be good at linear algebra as well in addition to programming languages

remote saffron Jun 22, 2018, 11:23 AM

#

game dev? depends

plucky hatch Jun 22, 2018, 11:24 AM

#

Well you need to be comfortable with matrices, vectors etc

flat gazelle Jun 22, 2018, 11:45 AM

#

Linear algebra is only necessary for tech roles. A regular artist (not TA/VFX) doesn't need it.

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 11:46 AM

#

i think a TA or VFX guy does need linear algebra

flat gazelle Jun 22, 2018, 11:46 AM

#

Yes

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 11:46 AM

#

@flat gazelle how would one create proper simulations, or cool shaders, without knowing linear algebra really well?

remote saffron Jun 22, 2018, 11:47 AM

#

yes, and on the other hand, some programmer can go on with secondary school level math

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 11:47 AM

#

something important to know, the linear algebra you actually need for anything game-dev related is not really that complicatede

flat gazelle Jun 22, 2018, 11:47 AM

#

Which is why I specified roles, excluding those

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 11:47 AM

#

its only a few things

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 11:48 AM

#

I have honestly not once used matrices

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 11:49 AM

#

everything you have ever done with a transform is actually a matrix

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 11:49 AM

#

Huh

#

True

#

Not exactly complex

flat gazelle Jun 22, 2018, 11:49 AM

#

I do think you need linear algebra for those things. However you don't need it if you only dip in and out of techie roles. You can use a dot to fade edges without being able to calculate it by hand. You can cross things without understanding orthogonality. But when you become a TA for real, I'd double down on actually understanding it.

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 11:49 AM

#

no, not really

#

thats why i say you only really need a few things

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 11:49 AM

#

I do TA, and honestly

#

As long as you don't suck at maths

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 11:49 AM

#

what kind of TA do you do?

#

just interested

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 11:49 AM

#

Probably not the kind you mean

#

Optimization, shaders, that sort of stuff

#

Not render-dev

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 11:50 AM

#

render-dev is engine dev or similar, not TA

#

thing is that TA can mean so many different things

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 11:50 AM

#

Yeah, that

#

Was about to say that

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 11:50 AM

#

from "makes cool materials/shaders", to "fx stuff" , to "writes 3ds max plugins"

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 11:50 AM

#

I always just explain what I do

#

I make cool materials and I know enough about the rendering pipeline and artsy stuff to function as a good bridge between the engine and the artists

#

Lots of look-dev stuff that most artists can't do, and most programmers won't do 😛

#

So for me, materials, optimization, lighting

#

And import stuff

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 11:52 AM

#

i spent so much time myself doing that

#

mostly to try to get things to look half-decent with low art skills

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 11:52 AM

#

Because god forbid moving stuff from suite 1 to suite 2 would be simple

remote saffron Jun 22, 2018, 11:52 AM

#

you don't have to know about matrices to call the SetActorLocation() function and that's that

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 11:52 AM

#

Hey, exactly the same here 😄

#

My art used to be a not-even-steaming pile of shit

#

So I had to make do

#

I enjoyed art

#

I just sucked at it

remote saffron Jun 22, 2018, 11:53 AM

#

as an engine coder I had to know university level linear algebra, as a gameplay programmer with unreal 99% of the time secondary school level math is enough

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 11:53 AM

#

im on a similar place

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 11:53 AM

#

So I started doing 'TA'

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 11:53 AM

#

i learned modelling, animation, etc

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 11:53 AM

#

To make shitty art look good

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 11:53 AM

#

but turns out i have around zero art talent

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 11:53 AM

#

I know how every bit of the art pipeline works

#

BUt yeah, that

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 11:53 AM

#

so while i know blender like the palm of my hand

#

and can do cool procedural bullshit with houdini

#

i cant make things that actually do look good

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 11:54 AM

#

I can exactly tell leads where their artists are fucking up, for instance

#

Which they usually can't, because they don't know enough about the entire workflow

flat gazelle Jun 22, 2018, 11:54 AM

#

@remote saffron Agreed. You also don't need to know matrixtransforms to move objects with the widget. You can utilize linear algebra without knowing it.

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 11:54 AM

#

So I usually see tech-art as bridging the gap between the artists and the engine-guys

#

And then as a convenient side-thing I happen to be decent/good (hard to say) at programming

#

Though in UE4 that's limited to BP

ashen lynx Jun 22, 2018, 1:00 PM

#

Maxscript/Python, backed up with a bit of understating how to work with meshes, is a ten folds more valuable skill for a TA, than UE4's blueprints.

#

Even if UE4-centered working environment is considered.

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 1:11 PM

#

Because?

#

I've had few moments where I wished I was able to extend the modelling suites

ashen lynx Jun 22, 2018, 1:26 PM

#

Virtually anyone can work with blueprints. Can't say the same about making even a basic script to encode case-specific data per vertex in content creation package.

#

If you can do latter, you can learn doing the first in weeks. No guarantee that the same can be said the other way around.

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:45 PM

#

@hybrid phoenix if you want to do TA stuff, why dont you learn python?

#

python is the closest to a standard 3d scripting lenguage you can get

#

and its easy

#

very, very easy

#

the easiest programming lenguage to learn

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 2:45 PM

#

Yeah, I've considered it

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:45 PM

#

i learnt python when i was 13 or so, on my own, in a couple days

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 2:45 PM

#

Just never really put it on my planning anywhere, so it doesn't happen

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:45 PM

#

python is quite easy for noobs

#

specially if you know blueprints, wich is programming after all

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 2:45 PM

#

It's like 'learning' Java(script? don't recall)

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:46 PM

#

java and javascript are completely different

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 2:46 PM

#

I know

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:46 PM

#

javascript its the abomination in web browsers

#

java is the server/business lenguage

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 2:46 PM

#

Yeah, JS

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:46 PM

#

JS is an absolute clustefuck of a lenguage

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 2:46 PM

#

Got into it

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:46 PM

#

a total and absolute disaster

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 2:46 PM

#

I was like

#

It's not hard, really

#

But what the fuck is this even

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:46 PM

#

did you know JS was designed AND implemented in 10 days?

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 2:47 PM

#

I do now 😛

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:47 PM

#

python is well made

#

the issue is that python split super-hard

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 2:47 PM

#

But I'll probs get into python then. Any particular reason for it?

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:47 PM

#

python 2 vs python 3

#

houdini: uses python

#

blender: python is all the UI and the script

#

maya: supports python

#

3dsmax: pretty sure python too

#

unreal engine: adding python support

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 2:48 PM

#

Didn't know houdini used python 👀

#

Alright, I'll have a go

#

Any suggestions for a starting point?

#

I probably won't have a particularly hard time with it, going by this description

#

Is it easier to learn than C#?

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:48 PM

#

yes

hybrid phoenix Jun 22, 2018, 2:49 PM

#

Oh I'll be fiiiine

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:49 PM

#

houdini supports way too many stuff

#

but one of the things it supports, its python

#

python in houdini is mostly designed around "high level" stuff

#

think loading files, calling into a server, creating a new node network, automating stuff

#

for actual "procedural" generation functions, you use VEX

#

or VOPs (visual scripting nodes, they compile into VEX code)

#

python is slooooooooooooooooooow

#

very slow

#

so you often want it for stuff that isnt math heavy

#

its a shame what happened to python

#

the split beetween 2 and 3 fractured the community exactly by half

#

on the last like 10 years

mental viper Jun 22, 2018, 2:53 PM

#

why did it split? are the versions that different?

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:53 PM

#

yes, they are incompatible

#

the actual python syntax is very similar, but just different enough that python 2 scripts dont compile on python 3

#

the biggest issue is the C++/DLL side

#

usually python is a script lenguage, its used to call into a DLL with actually does the heavy lifting

flat gazelle Jun 22, 2018, 2:54 PM

#

*VEX

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:54 PM

#

with python 2 to 3, all that went to shit

#

@flat gazelle thanks for the fix

flat gazelle Jun 22, 2018, 2:54 PM

#

Does anyone actually use 3? I've never run into it. Still rocking 2.7

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:55 PM

#

many libraries went like "fuck porting all the C++ library code to python 3 api, we aint updating". And that fractured the ecosystem to a huge degree

#

@flat gazelle 10 years later...

#

its 50/50

#

wich one does houdini support?

#

blender 2.5 upgraded to python 3, it was one of the first to upgrade

flat gazelle Jun 22, 2018, 2:55 PM

#

Meh fuck 3 and their newfangled print function

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:55 PM

#

not really

#

now print is a function

#

not a special thingy

#

print being "special" for some reason, i dont think that makes much sense

flat gazelle Jun 22, 2018, 2:56 PM

#

Hehe, let's not start religious battles in the career channel

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:56 PM

#

so houdini uses 2?

flat gazelle Jun 22, 2018, 2:56 PM

#

Houdini is 2.7

#

Well, 2

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:57 PM

#

see, thats why python 3 was a total disaster

#

what a way to fuck up the development of a lenguage

flat gazelle Jun 22, 2018, 2:57 PM

#

It's so different it would screw all the existing pipelines

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 2:57 PM

#

for comparaison, Swift and Go do in fact do "versions" that can break code

#

but when they do, they offer an "auto upgrade" tool

#

C++ goes the path of "never, ever, ever, break backwards compat"

#

and thus the lenguage itself has like 20 ways of doing any given thing

flat gazelle Jun 22, 2018, 3:01 PM

#

3 might come in 2020

#

http://www.vfxplatform.com/

VFX Reference Platform

VFX Platform : Reference Platform for VFX Software

mental viper Jun 22, 2018, 3:04 PM

#

when you said that js was implemented in 10days.. why is it still used so much?

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 3:05 PM

#

@mental viper becouse it became standard

#

in ye olde days, there was no script

mental viper Jun 22, 2018, 3:05 PM

#

oh i see

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 3:05 PM

#

then, a netscape engineer had a great idea "hey, im going to create a lenguage to make a button blink"

#

he created it in 10 days

#

called it javascript, and put it on netscape

#

eventually, people started to use it

#

then it became way too ingrained to implement "javascript 2", or similar thing

#

right now, there are plenty of lenguages that compile to javascript

#

the closest thing to javascript 2 you can get is Typescript

#

typescript is a lenguage that is like javascript, but with java/c#/c++ types (so you get Int, Vector, MyObject, etc)

#

and a bunch of other features

#

it just compiles to javascript, and has a ultrafast compiler, becouse the compiler doesnt do much

ashen lynx Jun 22, 2018, 3:07 PM

#

netscape navigator sigh,,,

#

these were the times

honest cipher Jun 22, 2018, 3:07 PM

#

this days, webasm is starting to go popular

#

its essentially java/c# type bytecode (not a lenguage) that compiles instantly to machine code in the browser

#

before that, you had asm.js

#

wich was a subset of javascript that allowed the browsers to optimize the hell out of it

#

and it was designed so you take C++ code, and compile it to asm.js

#

thats how UE4 HTML5 export works

errant pine Jun 23, 2018, 12:00 AM

#

If I want to become an environment artist should my portfolio contain both stylized and realistic levels (assuming they are all upto the same standard) or should I pick one or the other to focus on

vernal rune Jun 23, 2018, 12:34 AM

#

realism takes more time generally

solemn lantern Jun 23, 2018, 6:37 AM

#

it depends what kind of style you go for, it can sometimes take longer

#

(see gearboxes GDC talk about their ue4 custom renderer for refrence)

honest cipher Jun 23, 2018, 7:42 AM

#

@vernal rune not really

#

realism is very easy becouse you can abuse the hell out of asset packs

#

a stylized stylel is much harder to make becouse you need to get the stuff to be coherent

#

look at pubg

#

its almost like 80% assets

#

thats whychinese made ripoffs in weeks

#

meanwhile fortnite is nowhere near as easy to ripoff

karmic kayak Jun 23, 2018, 8:33 AM

#

Well, for an portfolio you dont really want to use asset packs, right?... At least not for a Environment Artist position. Perhaps Level Designer would be ok as the focus is different. But as Artist noone will hire you because you show off premade and bought assets. @honest cipher

honest cipher Jun 23, 2018, 8:37 AM

#

they would if you use the packs to make new interesting levels

#

the guy who made the DWVR maps got hired specifically for his work on DWVR maps

karmic kayak Jun 23, 2018, 8:38 AM

#

@errant pine You should match your portfolio with the Company's style where you apply. This can improve your chances to get into the next phase quite significantly.

honest cipher Jun 23, 2018, 8:38 AM

#

where he got a bunch of asset packs and built interesting stuff from them

karmic kayak Jun 23, 2018, 8:39 AM

#

@honest cipher as enviro artist or level designer tho?

honest cipher Jun 23, 2018, 8:39 AM

#

🤔

#

level designer doesnt need to make cool levels either

#

as it could be alll about the flow and that stuff

#

and then artists make the level cool

#

honestly, i would recoment to have a broad thing. Make a "asset pack", and actually use it to build a cool looking demo level

karmic kayak Jun 23, 2018, 8:40 AM

#

so a artist who only showed he/she can use pre made assets?

#

tbh i wouldn't hire such a guy but hey... everything is possible i guess

honest cipher Jun 23, 2018, 8:41 AM

#

plenty of people doing that in AAA

#

you have some department pumping assets, and other level designers using them to build stuff

karmic kayak Jun 23, 2018, 8:43 AM

#

I know. I spoke to Marcel Shaika (Lead guy at Crytek) but still.. I think showing off the ability to make stuff on you own is always an huge plus. @honest cipher

honest cipher Jun 23, 2018, 8:43 AM

#

im not saying it isnt

#

the best would be to create an "asset pack" yourself, and then use that to build a demo level

#

plus, if its good, you sell it on marketplace

#

environment packs sell fairly well, as no one wants to spend time building floor tiles

karmic kayak Jun 23, 2018, 8:44 AM

#

Yup. Thats an pretty neat way.

honest cipher Jun 23, 2018, 8:44 AM

#

for an artist, it is really the best way

#

build marketplace packs

#

and use them as portfolio

lunar bear Jun 23, 2018, 10:59 AM

#

i have a question

#

i want to start maintaining a portfolio

#

but i can't use art station as of now

#

because i am a minor

#

and i don't want to risk it

#

so then what should i use to make a portfolio ?

#

a custom site ?

ashen lynx Jun 23, 2018, 11:00 AM

#

devianart page would be enough for you.

honest cipher Jun 23, 2018, 11:01 AM

#

make artstation anyway?

#

just lie about the age for now to get in

lunar bear Jun 23, 2018, 11:02 AM

#

oh i do have one but it is basically shit so thinking of deleting it

errant pine Jun 23, 2018, 2:56 PM

#

@karmic kayak thank you i will remember that

raw shard Jun 23, 2018, 4:06 PM

#

Hey guys, I am working on a game. I mostly use unreal marketplace assets for my scenes. Would you make an art station account? Or is it not allowed to show scenes created with others assets..

#

I often do change them alot but still..

solemn lantern Jun 23, 2018, 4:16 PM

#

just delete the posts you dont like @lunar bear

lunar bear Jun 23, 2018, 4:21 PM

#

ohk

raw shard Jun 23, 2018, 4:23 PM

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I guess my question was already discussed.. However what was the result

lunar bear Jun 23, 2018, 4:47 PM

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just give proper credits in the artstation post description

karmic kayak Jun 23, 2018, 5:49 PM

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Why make an artstation page for an game tho? afaik thats not the purpose of artstation.

raw shard Jun 23, 2018, 5:50 PM

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The game is my project and the page is for me.. Tho.

#

I guess that's pretty much the purpose

karmic kayak Jun 23, 2018, 5:52 PM

#

Artstation is for portfolios tho. But do whatever you want. hehe

raw shard Jun 23, 2018, 5:55 PM

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xD did you ever use it? The portfolio tab is literally called Project. xD

#

And I guess a finished game is the best portfolio you can have.

steel creek Jun 23, 2018, 6:15 PM

#

[4:01 AM] vblanco: just lie about the age for now to get in

#

dont do that, and also, nice advice for "career" starting off.

#

make a website, find other places that dont have age retrictions

karmic kayak Jun 23, 2018, 6:17 PM

#

@raw shard Did you ever read the "About" section of Artstation? "...It enables artists to showcase their portfolios in a slick way..."

raw shard Jun 23, 2018, 6:50 PM

#

@karmic kayak yes and my game is not portfolio worthy. Interesting xD

odd mulch Jun 26, 2018, 7:17 AM

#

art station is adults only? wat

ashen lynx Jun 26, 2018, 1:23 PM

#


(a) you are an individual who can form a legally binding contract at law; and

(b) you are at least 18 years old, and of the age of majority in the jurisdiction from which you access the Site.```

#

Minors are not allowed to use ArtStation.

#

So yep, surprisingly, it is.

hexed charm Jun 26, 2018, 1:24 PM

#

tf?

lilac walrus Jun 26, 2018, 1:27 PM

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legal requirements, most likely

storm cradle Jun 26, 2018, 2:14 PM

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Most states it is not illegal to lie about your age online, but then again, you’re breaking the ArtStation terms of service.

remote saffron Jun 26, 2018, 2:17 PM

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it is not illegal to lie about your age online 🤔

ashen lynx Jun 26, 2018, 2:26 PM

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Nothing is illegal, if you don't end up being caught.

lilac walrus Jun 26, 2018, 2:40 PM

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"Most states it is not illegal to lie about your age online"

Surely if you do, you're entering into a contract using fraudulent personal information?

worn musk Jun 26, 2018, 11:15 PM

#

@lilac walrus
It's not illegal to use "fraudulent personal information" unless you're impersonating someone or otherwise falsifying official US Documents like birth certificates and such. You can lie about your name, age, race, etc. If you enter into a contract while using a false information the contract still applies to the applicant, but for any court action to be taken in the case of extreme negligence or debt the person's connection to their false name will need to be proven (or a judge or jury can decide against you even without substantial evidence in some cases). Collecting information about the users is purely for purpose of a service provider protecting themselves from lawsuits, or for sale to advertisers (and sometimes foreign governments).

#

So, hey, career advice question:

Does it pay for a perfectionist Solo Dev to work hard to create a game with good characters, gameplay elements, and environments after many months of hard work, or is it better in the long run to release some hot garbage after a couple of weeks and use it as a portfolio piece to join a team?

spiral fractal Jun 27, 2018, 2:18 AM

#

The two are not mutually exclusive. You could pour months into a project and still have it turn out hot garbage 😛
I'd be more concerned with the quality of the work being produced rather than the length of time to make it.

shadow kelp Jun 27, 2018, 6:52 AM

#

@worn musk depends what you want to achieve. Do you want to earn a living making games yourself? Or do you want a job at a studio?

worn musk Jun 27, 2018, 2:57 PM

#

@shadow kelp
Money, definitely money would be a primary concern. I assume the most reliable source would be to immediately seek out work with a small studio, so maybe building a portfolio would be better than a large game with depth? After all, you don't see many great titles with lone developers compared to studios to begin with, it might be futile to even try.

shadow kelp Jun 27, 2018, 3:01 PM

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You're very unlikely to make a complete game that impresses on your own...unless you've got the money to spend outsourcing the disciplines you aren't great at. For a job at a studio I would focus on doing some small parts of games, very well

ocean harbor Jun 27, 2018, 3:58 PM

#

which can bring very valuable experience and knowledge that you won't get from tutorials or articles

#

unfinished game can be your portfolio too, different roles need different portfolio, so you can vary what you show depending on a place where you apply

worn musk Jun 27, 2018, 4:07 PM

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That's a great point, BoredEngineer. Joining a team certainly does not require financial responsibility or marketing experience. I didn't really think about that, just thought commercial success should be the goal for every game before moving forward on the career path.

ocean harbor Jun 27, 2018, 4:07 PM

#

well, these are two different things in my opinion

#

financial success relies only partially on a game, it's more about the business itself

#

it depends on where you are, what is your target audience, how much it cost to run your business and etc. quality of the game is just one out of 10

honest cipher Jun 27, 2018, 4:09 PM

#

a good thing for portfolio material is those amateur forum projects

#

bonus, you meet with people and work with them. They can be a valuable experience

#

i increased my programming skill a lot by joining amateur teams and doing stuff with people

mortal raven Jun 28, 2018, 5:55 PM

#

I think this is the right place to post this:

#

These numbers are delusional. To what extent are they delusional:

Time from Early Development to Release: 36 months

Total Costs: 645,000$

Projected Sales: First 3 Months: 135,000 @ 39.99$ - $5,398,650
After 12 Months 180,000 @ 29.99$ - $5,398,200
Lifetime after 3 Years 220,000 @ 14.99$ - $3,297,800

Total Projected Downloads Over 3 Years: 535,000 $14,094,650

Payout to Investors in Year 1 Investor 1 at 5% - $704,732.5
Investor 2 at 2.8% - $394,650.2
Investor 3 at 5% - $704,732.5
Unreal Engine at 5% - $704,732.5
Storefront (Steam, GoG) at 30% - $4,228,395
Remain - $7,517,139.8
After Taxes (State, Federal, Payroll) at ~30% - $2,255,141.94

This is for a single player semi-open world hand to hand melee action RPG with a similar Fallout vibe set in a post-post apocalyptic underground city inspired by Bladerunner and The 5th Element.

Produced by a modding team with a mild track record of success publishing indie games that make reasonable ROI, and three of the largest narrative driven single player mods of all time, each of which has a built in audience loyal to the team's vision.

lethal snow Jun 28, 2018, 5:56 PM

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Take a walk, those numbers are too small xD

mortal raven Jun 28, 2018, 5:56 PM

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Too small for what? Elaborate. I need this kid of criticism.

lethal snow Jun 28, 2018, 5:56 PM

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I was joking xD

mortal raven Jun 28, 2018, 5:57 PM

#

A joke, sure, but I want your thoughts. :p Any reaction other than "fuck yeah pitch me that" is something I want to studdy.

lethal snow Jun 28, 2018, 5:57 PM

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Well holy fuck that's real money!

mortal raven Jun 28, 2018, 5:59 PM

#

Mmm. But is it enough? :p That 640,000$ to start with, for all my market analysis, is gonna be hard for me to pull off in the first place. Some Engineers (2 coders, 1 tech artist) will be getting 34$/hour for those 36 months, plus insurance. Freelancers will make up the bulk of the work not done by the 5 founders, who are VFX artists and level builders, with a strong narrative core.

#

Nothing we haven't done before, we've worked together for years and pulled it off (three times, respectively, each of us.)

#

But it's all that unforeseen "oh shit" expenses while we're bunkered down that can go wrong.

lethal snow Jun 28, 2018, 6:01 PM

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Go for it! It's not like you have anything too loose...

mortal raven Jun 28, 2018, 6:01 PM

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Other than my life and solvency. :p

#

The 3 investors are lined up already. Just gotta knock them down. The other half is kickstarter.

#

Thus the asking around.

lethal snow Jun 28, 2018, 6:02 PM

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Okay, if you loose the $640,000 I'll pay you $10 with PayPal to buy some rope.

mortal raven Jun 28, 2018, 6:03 PM

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Ha! Well, if we can pull off this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWkKzaplwbY

We can pull off anything. So I'm not worried about losing it, so much as not having enough.

YouTube

RadianHelixMedia

Fallout New California Narrative Trailer - With Release Date

For our 5 Year Anniversary, we're finally announcing the exact day we will launch our mod to the public! Credits list for the mod, voice actors, contributors...

▶ Play video

#

I can make the game I want alone over 6-7 years, but it's that start up cash that freaks me out.

I've been a producers before on projects that I was hired to manage. Never owned one of my own with stakes that financially high from the ground up.

#

So the wisdom of the elders would help.

ashen lynx Jun 28, 2018, 6:11 PM

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Nothing seems delusional about numbers though.

flat gazelle Jun 28, 2018, 6:15 PM

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The thing I react to is the low salaries as that usually means junior people. Do they have the skills to tie the not on a full project?

ashen lynx Jun 28, 2018, 6:16 PM

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Question is, where do you get an investor, ready for such risks at such low interests ?

#

You can easily do better, investing in estate.

plucky hatch Jun 28, 2018, 7:44 PM

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I'm thinking about starting a kick starter, does anyone know anything about Kickstarter to build indie games?

flat gazelle Jun 28, 2018, 7:48 PM

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I have provided content for a kickstarted project. That's as close as I feel comfortable getting to kickstarter

plucky hatch Jun 28, 2018, 8:01 PM

#

?

#

@flat gazelle could you elaborate

flat gazelle Jun 28, 2018, 8:02 PM

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Kickstarter projects tend to be poorly run and, well, fail

plucky hatch Jun 28, 2018, 8:05 PM

#

ah

digital gate Jun 28, 2018, 8:07 PM

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I've been involved with a few kickstarter-hopefuls.

#

Never really works out.

lilac walrus Jun 28, 2018, 10:18 PM

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@mortal raven - you've completely missed things like legals and marketing from your numbers

#

I would also suggest your projected sales are on the high side

hybrid phoenix Jun 28, 2018, 10:19 PM

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^

lilac walrus Jun 28, 2018, 10:19 PM

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$40 as a buy in for a game developed on a budget that small is steep

hybrid phoenix Jun 28, 2018, 10:20 PM

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That, and the amount of sales is uh... A steep projection

#

Mainly because it's got no basis

mortal raven Jun 28, 2018, 10:20 PM

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Legal isn't listed but is in the expenses. I have a lawyer and contract writer that is also an old friend and voice actor.

hybrid phoenix Jun 28, 2018, 10:21 PM

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I mean, if your track record is a proper basis for that estimate, sure

lilac walrus Jun 28, 2018, 10:21 PM

#

I might recommend halving your list price, you might get better sales numbers when the buy-in cost isn't so high

#

you might also want to consider that regional pricing differences may require you to (on average) sell lower regardless

mortal raven Jun 28, 2018, 10:23 PM

#

The 135,000 in 3 weeks is based on our mods, where we got that (for the first mod 27000 was lifetime, the next was over 600000, and the next was 137,000.

Our videos regularly get over 200,000 views and some are over a million views, with scores of letsplayers who have made a folloing out of our work, so those are pretty cynical honestly.

lilac walrus Jun 28, 2018, 10:24 PM

#

free downloads vs paid downloads are massively different though

#

the conversion rate of things like videos is less than 1%

mortal raven Jun 28, 2018, 10:24 PM

#

Our indie games so far have has 80,000 for the two, in the first 6 months. Just over 110000 lifetime in 2 years.

#

They also were not anything like this. :p

lilac walrus Jun 28, 2018, 10:25 PM

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either way, I'd err on the side of caution

hybrid phoenix Jun 28, 2018, 10:25 PM

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^

lilac walrus Jun 28, 2018, 10:25 PM

#

aim to break even in the worst-case scenario

hybrid phoenix Jun 28, 2018, 10:25 PM

#

I feel like I'm really just ^-ing all the time

#

But I do agree with whaat ambershee's saying

mortal raven Jun 28, 2018, 10:26 PM

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Worst case is probably getting JUST 120,000 lifetime -- but that is only going to happen if we get talent starved or something goes genuinely wrong in production.

lilac walrus Jun 28, 2018, 10:28 PM

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I don't know, 120k seems confident. The generally accepted cost of user acquisition is somewhere in the region of $4-6 PT

mortal raven Jun 28, 2018, 10:29 PM

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What kind of game are you imagining thougj?

lilac walrus Jun 28, 2018, 10:29 PM

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I have no idea, but on a ~$650k budget I'm not expecting Fallout 5

#

FYI, in my last company gig, the investors also took way, way more than 5% - it was closer to 50%

mortal raven Jun 28, 2018, 10:31 PM

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No. :p Absolutely not.

Because we spent so much time in the GECK and CK on New California and The Frontier, and Jack's team on War For the Overworld replicated a lot of those modular systems, we have worked out extremely rapid turn around on similar styles of game using UNREAL.

#

Oir investors so far are partners in the company, and two executives from substantial corporations that are father of the founders (I'm the odd one out and a poor kind, they're multimillionaires. :p)

lilac walrus Jun 28, 2018, 10:33 PM

#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

#

either way, you asked if the numbers were reasonable

#

from my experience, that was my opinion

mortal raven Jun 28, 2018, 10:34 PM

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But if you ever played the game Oni in 2001, we're doing a hand to hand melee system very similar to that, and a 3rd person role playing game in a tiered open world. Not small, but not huge. Its roughly planned to the the same scale as FNC.

#

Yeah. It's a great opinion. Thanks.

You work on what kind of game?

Depending on your background that'll help me make a note of those comments and write a good argument if it comes up.

#

We're also arguing over 39.99 amd 29.99.

#

I think 30$ is too low. 40$ sounds better to investor 1, and he has more marketing experience that literally anyone. Not in games tho. But convincing him is step one, convincing audience is step 2.

hybrid phoenix Jun 28, 2018, 11:06 PM

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$40 will get you yelled at by your non-hardcore audience

#

In the industry's current state

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At least, that's mainly what I'd be cautious about

mortal raven Jun 28, 2018, 11:52 PM

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Sales, for those folks. :p

vivid arch Jun 29, 2018, 5:54 AM

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$40 with a 10% launch discount would be $36 which doesn't look as bad. Alternatively you could launch at something like $32 with a 10% discount bringing it down to $29

kindred mason Jun 29, 2018, 6:47 AM

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We're launching $19.99 with 10% discount

mortal raven Jun 29, 2018, 7:26 AM

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Yeah, it's a tough niche. Rimworld is 30$ and I spent just ungodly time on that when not working. State of Decay too, I loved that game.

Ours will look like it's nearly a AAA game, because I've got my asset creation and level design up to that level. Our voice acting being convincing, more so than our past work, will be the make or break for selling that 10$ difference.

#

That comment about $40 getting us yelled at by non-hardcore audience is absolutely true. I planned to hit those kids later on, with an upfront dip to conform with that annoying trend right now (it may be different in 4 years.)

ocean harbor Jun 29, 2018, 9:41 AM

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You can estimate any number you want in principal. The question is how you are going to get it? As in how much money per sale are you planning to invest into marketing?

#

Game can be good and you might be lucky. But if not, you have to cover at least those 600k or double it for next project, as income not as revenue.

#

I would divide those mod numbers by at least 10 as not only it’s a free content but it’s a mod for another IP. Success of that ip might be playing way bigger role than what mod have to offer.

honest cipher Jun 29, 2018, 9:44 AM

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@mortal raven you have zero chance whatsoever

#

you cant go to that level directly

#

you need to release actual paid stuff with a lower budget to get experience

#

ive released multiple games, paid, and i still dont think i could lead a project with that sort of money.

#

There is a progression that should be followed, you have no idea of so many parts

#

for example, with a budget that high, you would need a UE4 AAA license

#

have you thought about that?

#

also, 14 million profit is outrageous. There is no way in hell you can sell that amount as you first game

#

becouse you will fail completely at marketing

#

as you dont know how the hell to market that

kindred mason Jun 29, 2018, 11:27 AM

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levels levels levels

#

I have 4 hours to prove it

#

gog o go go

honest cipher Jun 29, 2018, 11:35 AM

#

@kindred mason you cant have instant data, so you wont know how many players

#

but

#

use google analytics on steam store page

#

to get realtime stats

#

of your page views

kindred mason Jun 29, 2018, 11:36 AM

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@honest cipher hmm

#

so google analytics in games now is worthless?

honest cipher Jun 29, 2018, 11:37 AM

#

yes

kindred mason Jun 29, 2018, 11:37 AM

#

hm

honest cipher Jun 29, 2018, 11:37 AM

#

well, you need to ask permission

kindred mason Jun 29, 2018, 11:37 AM

#

what happens if I put it in anyyway?

honest cipher Jun 29, 2018, 11:37 AM

#

but other devs that have added the permission prompt

#

tell me only 10% of players hit

kindred mason Jun 29, 2018, 11:37 AM

#

hm

#

dumb shit

#

this data is gold to improving games

honest cipher Jun 29, 2018, 11:37 AM

#

yes

#

but GDPR is an anti-google campaign

#

if you roll your own analytics

#

like, in-house

#

you could do analytics that are 100% anonymous, and that would be gdpr friendly

#

they say things like user id are not good. But you could generate an unique session id that changes every time a user restarts the game. That would be anonymous

#

and not store IP anywhere

#

but thats so much work

kindred mason Jun 29, 2018, 11:39 AM

#

hmmmm

#

cant we already do that iwth google anayltics?

honest cipher Jun 29, 2018, 11:39 AM

#

no

kindred mason Jun 29, 2018, 11:39 AM

#

omg, fuck my typing

honest cipher Jun 29, 2018, 11:39 AM

#

becouse the data gets sent to google anyway

#

THEY do get all the data

#

user id, device id, and IP

carmine siren Jun 29, 2018, 4:43 PM

#

Anyone have a copy of the Epic Games guide on Raleigh? Looks like the link is broken now

#

http://epicgames.com/files/general/Raleigh_Area_WEB.pdf

drowsy tundra Jun 29, 2018, 9:26 PM

#

📎 Raleigh_Area_WEB.pdf

#

archive.org :p

hexed charm Jul 1, 2018, 12:38 AM

#

Guys, I'm gonna put my game to Itch.io. so i'm asking, do i need to put all of it (ETC 1, ETC2, PVRTC, and the others)? just like google play?

digital gate Jul 1, 2018, 1:16 AM

#

I'd say only the HTML/Webgl/PC/Mac/Linux stuff

hexed charm Jul 1, 2018, 1:17 AM

#

its only for Android

#

but someone say i have to upload all files , if i publish in Goggle play

digital gate Jul 1, 2018, 1:18 AM

#

Oh I wasn't aware itch let you do mobile.

#

You could try asking them to see if you get a bite

hexed charm Jul 1, 2018, 1:20 AM

#

likr contacting them?

#

i see what does this ETC1 thing called?

fleet lagoon Jul 1, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

I need someone to talk to.. Someone who understands the industry

#

I dont have any specific questions, its more about the industry

#

ive invested my career, money, time, everything into this, just to slowly realize that the industry is quickly moving in a completely new direction, everything now is generated, nothing is made anymore

#

its caused me to lose my motivation, there is nothing artistic about it anymore..

#

I dont want to pick up houdini, as its an incredibly technical, and complicated piece of software, but seeing how almost everyone relies on it these days, i dont see how i can make it without it

urban stump Jul 1, 2018, 7:42 PM

#

"Nothing is made anymore..... there is nothing artistic about it anymore". Short version: You're wrong. Long version: Mocap did not replace hand animation, and it never will. You cannot motion capture a toaster breaking out into song and dance. No matter how automated tools get, you always need to have artists to invent new things.

#

Same goes with photogrammetry and everything else. It can't replace doing things manually, ever. You can't photoscan a death star.

#

So if you somehow reached the conclusion that "nothing is made", I seriously question your thought process to get there in the first place. You're fine. Just make cool stuff.

remote saffron Jul 1, 2018, 7:46 PM

#

also even projects using those techniques can be (and usually are) artistic

honest cipher Jul 1, 2018, 7:51 PM

#

even on the highest cases of procedural abuse, there are still artists behind the tools

#

just, instead of placing trees manually, they paint where they want a forest to appear, and what kind of trees are there, and at what angles on the ground, etc

flat gazelle Jul 1, 2018, 8:34 PM

#

The tools are just shifting to allow a higher level of artistry. Eventually, you might not need to handplace verts, but instead you handpaint how strong the jawline of the character should be. Instead of drawing erosion maps you guide waterflow. If you are afraid that the newbies will "catch up" since they don't have to learn the hard way, maybe that's a signal that you should try something differnet? Tech will always change and evolve and we need to do the same.

plucky hatch Jul 1, 2018, 8:58 PM

#

@fleet lagoon yeah dont worry, they said the same thing when Zbrush just came out, then the same when quixel came out, and then the same with substance painter/designer, and theyll keep saying that every time, sure there s new tools, but if youre an artist that doesnt understand the fundamentals ofwhat makes good art, no amount of tools can turn your shit skill into something that is quality work. i always teach everyone the basics and fundamentals, any monkey can learn a tool, but basics and fundamentals is what will make you actually GOOD at your job

nova locust Jul 2, 2018, 1:20 AM

#

anyone have tips on making portfolios better

#

i feel like mine is not fully describing my abilities and experience

#

http://colby-hall.com

Colby Hall: Portfolio

Colby Hall's programming portfolio

#

also it totally has grammar issues

tight summit Jul 2, 2018, 1:21 AM

#

The rule of thumb is look at what the pros are doing and that's how your portfolio should look like.

nova locust Jul 2, 2018, 1:21 AM

#

ahh oke

tight summit Jul 2, 2018, 1:22 AM

#

Oh you are a game programmer.

nova locust Jul 2, 2018, 1:22 AM

#

yeee buddy

tight summit Jul 2, 2018, 1:22 AM

#

That's a good question then. I'm more familiar with game/level design and art.

#

For programming, I would probably ask the same question 😉

nova locust Jul 2, 2018, 1:22 AM

#

yeah portfolio for artist are a bit more intuitive

tight summit Jul 2, 2018, 1:23 AM

#

I asked a programmer from LawBreakers and he just told me, show me games.

#

So...

#

You probably want a portfolio tailored to the jobs you want to apply for, Im guessing

#

And a lot of the jobs people get are thx to networking

nova locust Jul 2, 2018, 1:24 AM

#

well eh

#

i have a job rn

tight summit Jul 2, 2018, 1:24 AM

#

make friends

#

a lot of them

nova locust Jul 2, 2018, 1:24 AM

#

im actually fixing to launch a game

kindred mason Jul 2, 2018, 1:24 AM

#

Show them games

#

Game jams

nova locust Jul 2, 2018, 1:24 AM

#

ive never done game jams

kindred mason Jul 2, 2018, 1:24 AM

#

School projects

#

Personal projects

nova locust Jul 2, 2018, 1:24 AM

#

never went to college

kindred mason Jul 2, 2018, 1:25 AM

#

Win some awards