lapis geode
Just watched that reel and actually iAnimate might have a lower skill requirement as those are great, but not as impressive as the AnimSchool reels
#career-chat
delicate apex
true challenge is modular animations
rancid root
!^^^ You mean like Dynamic Animations, Yeah You right.
indigo hill
@lapis geode Thanks Aus. I do work in the industry, and I was in contact with inanimate reps and students at CTNX last year. They make advanced-placement for industry people if you come in with an industry background and if you have a 3d reel demonstrating what your current skill level is.
animschool I never checked out - but I also did check out animation mentor. Same thing regarding advanced placement, and the rep there actually gave me a list of good rigs to use for practice & reel work.
But my impression is that it might be harder to get into animation mentor due to the popularity of the program.
I have a couple industry pals who actually made the switch from 2D to 3D animation career track via animation mentor courses tho. One of them was a coworker who I watched doing their mentor homework assignments after workday too. It was pretty rad to see. :]
of the schools I was in contact with I felt that ianimate was probably the best fit for me - if they have lower entrypoint requirements that's great!
That said - I think it's likely advanced placement would probably only get me into starting with body mechanics.
indigo hill
which is fine - because the body mechanics coursework is pretty intense!
stark quartz
is it worth going to school for a game design bachelors?
spice dagger
If the cost to benefit ratio is in your favor sure.
vivid pivot
Hard to give a yes / no answer. Dependent on situation, experience, goals etc
lilac walrus
like I said in the other channel, I've never seen a decent game design bachelors
spice dagger
You need to really do the numbers though. Personally, i did 2 years of an 4 year course and pulled the plug because the cost was to high for to little benefit for me (i was already working in the industry and i wasnt learning anything new)
At the end of the day the piece of paper would have just been 32k worth of debt.
And little more to me.
Think hard and do some research first and weigh up your particular circumstance.
supple cliff
might be good for people who know literally nothing about it, or people like me who just lack the self-discipline to just work on stuff on your own, though.
but overall, the general consensus that I've seen is that it's better to develop the skills on your own, make something, and learn stuff that way. creates more individuality and self-reliance, they say. but (for employers) getting certain degrees should guarantee that the graduates at least know certain skills that are necessary for the job. little risk of getting a programmer who can code in c/c++ but not python or java, for example.
honest cipher
@spice dagger interesting. Im on a similar place
except cost is not an issue
70-80% into a degree, but everything left is just business stuff or very weird math , wich i have zero interest in
lilac walrus
tbh, if you lack the self discipline to work on your own, you probably don't want to work in games
or indeed any industry where paradigms change so quickly
remote saffron
self discipline can come with time tho
and a university can help you get there if you are lucky or idk
supple cliff
yeah, if i work on it, it'll get better. I just start projects, hit a hurdle, get lost trying to figure out what to do, and switch to something else so I never finish anything.
or i'll just get "bored" with something and stop doing it.
I recently read a thing on Gamasutra that addresses that very problem and it had some good advice about it (namely about setting goals and time management) that I have yet to implement, but it should help
I think this was it: https://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/1693/how_to_actually_finish_your_first_.php
ocean harbor
There are very few things in gamedev that one would struggle to learn from an article or a book. Going to university to learn something that can be picked up from an online course in a matter of 1-10 hours, feels a bit like a waste
But there are other courses which can give you a great advantage, like applied math for example
CS with specialization in Computing, Simulation or computer graphics is imho worth way more than a gamedesign
Unless you go to one of the few places where they go hardcore into research of player psychology and behavior patterns
supple cliff
but there's always the option of just taking individual courses without a degree program
Universities are happy to take your money
or you can take them as electives while getting another degree.
lilac walrus
game courses are notoriously difficult to get into on account of demand
ones worth doing are rarely offered as electives
supple cliff
You should be able to take them if you're getting a Computer Science degree, though, right?
ocean harbor
it's not the same
in university you have a pressure to study and do things that you don't want/like to do
just as in feature job
you have to collaborate with other people, improve your social skills, find different ways to solve problems
it has a rythm to everything that helps with discipline and it's easy to talk to your "teachers" about various things
remote saffron
and find the easiest way to prepare for exams, which is 90% of the stuff, and the key is to check and learn to solve the tests from previous years (which obviously won't help you much in real life but whatever)
ocean harbor
yes, that can help with things that you are not particularly interested in, which is still something that you learn how to do
I was working on some of my own projects and several professors helped me out with math and other things
the other part was employment, as a student of university, it was much easier to find some temporary job
but this can vary greatly by the country where you live in - in some it's sort of "prohibited" to work while you study
your environment is another thing, being around people who are interested in tech stuff and overal intelegent, helps with learning
ashen lynx
Choosing if to take gamedev-specific education or not is really highly dependent on your location/financial possibilities.
Formal education gives not only professional knowledge, but a set of other skills, including communication, self-organisation and what not. I bet whatever is the industry, you will barely use 5% of what you learned at university anyway.
storm cradle
Hey, does anyone know a way to get some looking for experience 3D Modelers on a project? We have a demo going to a publisher that is likely to be published if the demo is finished, and we had some devs drops out, so I'm looking for a way to get some Devs onboard, obviously being they would get paid back if/when the deal goes through.
vernal rune
find artists you like, approach them with your terms
storm cradle
I don’t know any artists at the moment bother then though already used.
vernal rune
polycount, search on social media etc, im sure theres people out there
novel hill
Hey if anyone here is good at 2D iOS games, hit me up and you have a chance of getting payed to make this for me... (I pay F&F first)
vernal rune
wrong channel @novel hill please use the job bot
storm cradle
@vernal rune could you refer me to anyone?
vernal rune
I dont know anyone available Soy
digital gate
@novel hill chance of getting payed is not paid, that's called royalty.
storm cradle
Yeah.
spice dagger
@novel hill Do not post the same message in multiple channels.
Also as suggested. Use the Job bot if you have an job listing you want filled.
Read the #old-rules and #more-resources for further information.
plucky hatch
University is kind of a waste IMO. If you need the structure and discipline it can be helpful, but most of the time professors had us looking up tutorials via youtube. Then if we had any questions in class our out we had their support.
mild spruce
gcse exams in a nutshell
solid bridge
Today i was accused of mystically stealing 250gb of "company server data" from a client that i had a falling out with due to payment schedules... all within 3 minutes of having access to his company server (dropbox of all things) and zipping this up into a zip file that is also magically called the same thing as a UE4 marketplace asset - which doesnt even match the asset version i have on hand lol. Be careful of this hap-hazzard guy looking for UE4 workers - you'll have problems along the way.
250gb - doesnt download in 3 minutes no matter what your ISP speeds are - even fiber to the house. Let alone - zipping up a 250gb zip drive would take quite a while... few hours. Then - to UPLOAD 250gb zip drive to some offline storage (as accused) - all within 3 minutes.
I dunno bout you guys - but i must be the worlds most leading technology person in hijacking supersonic transfer speeds from my ISP and breaking the MS Windows rules when it comes to zipping up files.
dreamy jacinth
did he even read what he wrote?
solid bridge
i would hope so - he's managing projects
that makes him smarter than the avg. bear right?
htis isnt as much a flame post on this guy as it is a forewarning to people that are pursuing contracting/freelance positions over the web. Be careful whom you work for! both my email (gmail) had been compromised just today as well unauthorized access to my Epic account (thank god for 2-part authentication!!) had been attempted.
solid bridge
ikr
dreamy jacinth
its that new "faster than light" fibre tech predicted in Ghost in the Shell.
solid bridge
fiber to the house isnt even this fast lol.
again - those of you with eyes on this ... be wary - this guy is recruiting actively in the #looking-for-talent channel
steel creek
Did the math
you would need a 15GB connection to do it that fast
Your drive cant even keep up. lol
ashen lynx
It would be good to hear from the other side of the conflict too. On a side note, It is quite good to live in the future, where you can pull 250GB in 3 min. I don't complain about my link speed, just a bit envious.
discord message only mentioned though, that the file was created 3 minutes after gaining access.
vivid pivot
only 250 GB 😉
shut tree
u can put SSDs in raid 😃
ocean harbor
You would need new software/drivers too
It’s something not achievable for a single machine anyway
And the bottleneck would be on their side - I doubt that any gamedev studio has access to anything like that
Taking into account that only few corporations have it 😄
shut tree
I didnt do the math, it seemed futile
one of these things where u can do the math if u like but u allready know the answer 😄
ocean harbor
You can in fact get storage that could be even faster than that, but then we are not talking about moving a single file anymore
shut tree
lets do the math, lets break it down, what do we need? 😛
ocean harbor
Well, you have to start with a switch/router/cables that can output 100gb
shut tree
a motive to steal his stuff 😛
solid bridge
@ashen lynx - the file i was accused of stealing is the MMO-Starter Kit for UE4 4.13 (as shown in the picture.) The file i have in my dropbox before UNLINKING the project i was on in 2014 and linking this guys dropbox to my email is shown below:
i've NEVER had a conflict like this - his facts are mythical (not even remotely possible in todays technology) which is also showing his knowledge/expertise with hardware & software in today's trends.
as well - his entire "company server" he refers to is dropbox.com. You guys used the right term "Bottleknecks" - i'm sure Dropbox.com doesnt have the ability to upload 250gb to me in under 3 minutes.
wet plank
well technically he didn't say you allocated the stuff away in 3 minutes. Just that the zip file was created 3 minutes later
and while the zip file make take hours to complete. The initial creation of the temporary file that's being compiled would only take a few seconds
solid bridge
its w/e i'm not here to defame this guy - but i will warn others that want to work for him as he's actively recruiting.... of my own bad experience with him. never in my life have i been accused of such malarki
shadow trench
wierd to give the "partners" access to MP content, which (by license) should only be available in the project?
solid bridge
per EULA of UE4 marketplace - all assets are able to be given to TEAM MEMBERS on the same team - and the asset used in that project (or others with the same team). This was tied to a dropbox account that I had still linked up with the client from 2014... which i de-linked and thus the file is removed at that point.
fwiw - the MP asset isnt even on the marketplace any more.
shut tree
ya i couldnt find it, mmo on MP makes my eyebrow go a lil up 😛
rigid bluff
@solid bridge holy shit, PRAZ from ORION: Prelude?
solid bridge
yes
solid bridge
thats good to know i'm not hte only one thinking this
rigid bluff
plagiarism not paying people etc etc
rigid bluff
and just making awful projects
solid bridge
aweful project is understatement - the programming (all blueprints) looked like a hot plate of spaghetti
rigid bluff
he's been at this for YEARS
solid bridge
i wonder why?
shut tree
if he uses ur stuff DMCA him
solid bridge
all of this makes me feel better that he forward paid me $500 lol
rigid bluff
basically he broke his own contract with you?
solid bridge
i broke ties with him - due to him shuffling around payment plans
thats when he promptly came up with me hijacking 250gb of his "company server" data
shut tree
ahh just read a bit, the assets wil never be used for sales, just get investors shit like that 😛
rigid bluff
he should be banned from every community
solid bridge
the pay is fine for remote work - right up an alley of pretty decent to above average
however - the way it was handled is why i quit - and thus prompted all of this shennanigans
shut tree
hmm was thinkin of trollin him a lil, but i kinda feel bad for him allready
rigid bluff
don't he's been doing this shit for decades
I think like 35 or something
but I've known of him since at least 2006
He went on a promotional spamfest through HL2 Modding communities
shut tree
you would think he picks up a few skills in that timeframe
rigid bluff
his skill is to look legitimate to artists/programmers
plucky hatch
I wonder if he'll chime in here
rigid bluff
he's prolly the best at that among all these revshare scammers
he's left this server apparently
it's what he does, strolls through communities begging for victims
vernal rune
🍿
plucky hatch
@solid bridge I'm so sorry
No one should go through that
I went through something similiarish
zenith ginkgo
Its all too common these days
plucky hatch
I had an old boss who I worked for when I was working on BF3. At the time I did alot of the work while he sat back and watched. One day he deletes the source control and takes the build for himself, calls it his. Luckily I still had a build, and have been working on it since. Thats what you see now if you look up my channel
But karma kinda got to him. Hes apparently homeless now and what he thought would help him actually ended up fucking him over, simply due to the fact that alot of my friends in the gaming industry noticed my work and called him out on his shit
shut tree
battlefield battlefront something else?
plucky hatch
Battlefront
rigid bluff
I worked on taking over a cosmetic project for Dota 2 team Na'Vi, they hired these goons to make a courier for them. They sent us what they were working on and couldn't finish, it was a 50k poly mess. I completely redid everything from Na'Vi's concepts and the goons still wanted in on the revenue.
plucky hatch
Im doing a remake of the canclled 2008 game
@rigid bluff fuck them dude. Digitally sign your stuff, thats what I learned. It helps alot more than you think
shut tree
but this is disney IP..
rigid bluff
ya the original artists got cut from the rev, happy it went down that way
they were asking for an equal share
you shoulda seen this model, it had edge loops for the toes going through the whole body
plucky hatch
@shut tree iit was supposed to be a portfolio piece. Thats why it did nothing for him bc a lot of my friends at ubisoft knew about it, and thats the compamy he tried ti work at
Fucking hell
Bad modeling then
I notice some things in the battlefront 3 meshes im using but not that bad
What did the UVs look like?
shut tree
that doesnt really matter if u gunna redo the thing 😛
rigid bluff
ya
shut tree
could be super perfect UVs 😛
plucky hatch
Oof
Well atleast you got your share and the job was done
Unfortunate that you had to deal with idiots though
shut tree
how much poly is it now?
rigid bluff
I think it had to be 3k
shut tree
ahh nice
ashen lynx
Do you, gentlemen, think that e-mailing a speaker from GDC and asking a pretty particular technical question would be a bit outrageous ?
karmic kayak
Not at all.
ashen lynx
Even if his contact e-mail was pulled off from the web, and was not featured in concluding slides ?
karmic kayak
I think often speakers like to get in touch with people. At least it was like this in my case ..when i had a few questions about a technique.
Hmm well that might be different then.
ocean harbor
@ashen lynx worst case scenario he will just not reply.
If you got his email from legit source then it’s fine.
ashen lynx
Alright thanks. Guess I won't face firing squad for just asking.
flat gazelle
I put my mail at the end of my presentations for that very reason.
orchid shuttle
I know the basics of most tools in UE4 and am looking for a mentor to help boost up my skills to become a moderately equipped all-rounder. Any tips for finding one or is there maybe someone interested here? 😃
storm cradle
Most likely either join a hobby project, or you’ll have to pay.
orchid shuttle
Not a bad idea. Do you have suggestions as to where I could easily find projects like that?
wheat rampart
There's a new platform called Nubbl that helps to bring gamers and developers together. A few projects are up there.
orchid shuttle
Alphanumber, sounds cool
plucky hatch
i love playing, but most games dont give me what i want
i think its good, otherwisee id waste too much time on it
orchid shuttle
Oh, there's like no one there even using ue4... :/
storm cradle
That’s not true 😂
Unreal Engine is the most powerful open engine
There are thousands of current projects.
orchid shuttle
I was talking about Nubbl
sacred urchin
Hi people, I want to share a know about my mistakes I did in this work scenario. I was contacted by a client for work. He discussed me, what he needs and asked me a demo for it, I sent the demo and the code to show him that work is achievable. After some days of discussion, he says that he no longer needs the work done as he can himself do that, i assume that he is taking help from the demo code I sent, as a result of this whatever work I did to get this deal is in vain, and the client is also using my code which i shared him in a demo. I want to know what mistakes i did so that I can rectify
finite osprey
Reminder to everyone to not use FText as part of a lookup table.
My company had a patch delayed for two days trying to hunt down a translation bug.
spice dagger
@sacred urchin Thats why you have contracts. Thats why you dont share the product until you get paid. Make an video of it instead of sending ACTUAL code.
digital gate
Its generally fine to send a limited version of things in a way they can't make into the full version.
spice dagger
Also dont post the same message on multiple channels.
digital gate
IE: A literal demo.
digital gate
Sending source is a big mistake, even if he didn't actually do what you're saying he did, you're always going to be wondering if he did.
sacred urchin
sorry @spice dagger for posting in other channel
digital gate
Meanwhile if you take a video or build the binaries, you won't have that issue.
sacred urchin
I will not send the code for the demo work as well now
digital gate
Another thing is doing work before the deal was secure. That's a recipe for disappointment.
sacred urchin
Can you refer me to any link where I can download the contracts ?
digital gate
There is no one contract or set of contracts. You can find a template but those aren't always good.
digital gate
yes, do not share code that you wouldn't want them to steal.
sacred urchin
demo is the name i'm giving to a build which i sent to client to show the work is achieveable and that's how i do
digital gate
Ehhhhhh.
sacred urchin
okay I keep this in mind
digital gate
So the way that I do things is - I approach a client and send them my past work. If needed, they can interview me or administer a test.
The difference between a test and doing a "demo" is that the test will be unrelated to any serious development task and is mostly there to make sure that I actually know anything.
Test "work" isn't anything that should resemble the work in question.
Once they decide they want to work with me, I get the set of features they want and I either pitch them a fixed quote or a rate. Payment can be either fully upfront, half before/after, or pay-when-complete.
I do the work, but they don't see actual deliverables (source code) until I get money.
sacred urchin
spent a week on it, feels bad for cheaed
digital gate
You shouldn't be doing real work in place of a test.
sacred urchin
Okay , this I understand now, I won't be doing actual work on the test, instead will show my capabilities with ue4
digital gate
Do like a generic demo that won't include code, and then have separate samples of code to show your style
sacred urchin
also I want to know that some clients want to give all the money on the submission of milestone, there is a high danger that they denie all the work in the last and left you unpaid, how to handle that ?
digital gate
Rather than specific demos for each client that do include code.
I just walk. If they insist on getting the deliverable prior to payment and there's no recourse for them just not paying me, I'm gone.
You might also go smaller so that at any given time they're not getting a ton of work for free by cutting you loose.
sacred urchin
@digital gate I'm not able to understand you, suppose there is a client who want to get work done and signed a work contract with me, he mentioned that all the work will be paid to you once i confirm the delivery, in this way he holds the money till the end, and sometime they don't send the money.
digital gate
Do you have the means to sue?
sacred urchin
I can use the contract for it, but I feel going for the law to sue them is very lengthy process, I just need advance from them
so that I can be assured of building the code in opeace
digital gate
Well if you don't have the means to enforce the contract then you have to be defensive.
If they want to wait until they have the work before paying you, just don't work with them.
sacred urchin
okay, that's a possible idea, as if they are serious in working with me , they will be sending the code upfront
digital gate
Yeah, it always sucks when something like this happens though. I've had it happen a couple of times.
sacred urchin
I want to continue in UE4 and here there are not much companies working on it, freelancing is only way through, so need to prepare my work process for that
you also do freelance @digital gate ?
digital gate
Yeah
sacred urchin
@spice dagger What if you show the demo before the contact comes. Considering you are doing this to get the work contract from client .
spice dagger
Make an video of it.
sacred urchin
@digital gate thanks for the advice
spice dagger
Never send code
digital gate
^
sacred urchin
okay
spice dagger
Upload video to Youtube or something.
digital gate
heh. I made a standard policy and this is from that.
Unless agreed otherwise, no work leaves my drive until payment is received. I'm more than happy to show you the work via Skype, or Youtube (private, unlisted videos of course) or even sending you video footage directly, but I'll expect payment in full before any .uasset, .cpp, or .h files are transferred (and that includes videos form, so asking me to slowly pan through my work on video is out the window).
I don't use it anymore cause I tend to have contract work now
sacred urchin
they tried social engineering on me to know how i'm gonna do that work, and then asked me a demo based on that work
digital gate
Oh man. Where are you getting clients from?
spice dagger
Immediate Red Flag there
sacred urchin
this company risecorp.com
wanted me to work freelance to integrate there tech into unreal engine 4 using a plugin
and asked a demo to show capability,
with the source code
i makde a mistake to share code i guess , which I won't do now
thanks for your valuable advise
devs
digital gate
I've a feeling there's some breakdown of communication here.
sacred urchin
it will really help me
digital gate
Hey can you show us that you can integrate our product with this other thing, before we pay you to integrate our product with the thing we mentioned? Yeah, we need to see the source before we decide to work with you is a pretty obvious scam, but Hey can you show us that you know how to do a plugin-based integration is somewhat more reasonable.
sacred urchin
hmmm i understand now
plucky hatch
@digital gate by just throwing a "reasonable" github profile with reasonable projects will get you anything in my experience.
honest cipher
@plucky hatch can confirm
plucky hatch
Aka portfolio
😂
If thats not enough don't bother.
Also @sacred urchin do never do demos and tests ans stuff.
I had this many times, interviews where i was asked to write code to prove my skills just to get "one job". While you can easily get weekly 10 job offer emails by just making something on your own.
And putting it on github or building a portofolio
steel creek
Yeah do not do that
Also in any deal you should get some money up front
And no not 50%
compact hull
sacred urchin
Just for the information I'm asking as I've been asked by 2 clients to send them demo work with code for which they didn't send money. They are https://www.opusvisual.com/ and https://risecorp.com/ . We should make a list of potential bad clients which we have found so that other can look into before they sign up for the work.
@plucky hatch I will be putting the work on my github profile. And I will ask the clients to have a look in it.
@steel creek what kind of work collaboration you ask to client. ? I mean you ask for advance payment ? or what if they don't offer advance payment method ?
lilac walrus
'never returned the work'?
sacred urchin
@lilac walrus thanks for correction
lilac walrus
ah gotcha
sacred urchin
anyways i'm not giving up on my free lance career here, some dirty drops can't make the ocean dirty, i will display my portfolio for the proficiency . thanks for reminding me about that guys
broken hollow
What do you guys plan to do for your career
arctic knot
I plan to build upon my portfolio in artstation and try and get a job at a studio somewhere hopefully doing landscape design - my bread and butter.
analog pulsar
I want to leave saber interactive and find some bigger studio as senior technical sound designer
lilac walrus
analog pulsar
@lilac walrus not all people make money the first priority
lilac walrus
that's just my career plan
analog pulsar
@lilac walrus so that means you don't love game dev?
lilac walrus
nobody said that
analog pulsar
@lilac walrus oh than excuse me 😃
lilac walrus
hehe
remote saffron
which one is your plan @lilac walrus ? dancing or throwing money at someone who is dancing?
lilac walrus
broken hollow
I see
buoyant minnow
General Consensus : Kickstarter or Fig?
lilac walrus
Kickstarter, because of sheer volume of users
steel creek
@sacred urchin if they don't offer Advance payment then why are you doing any work for them? You can't have it both ways.
If you are the one doing freelance then you are the one that needs to have a contract with the client. Just because they have a contract does not exclude you from having your own.
While theirs might have all of the stuff laid out the way that it's supposed to be, yours should at least include payment structure.
Also the ocean is not clean it is chock-full of plastic as is evidenced by the latest find of plastic down in the Mariana Trench.
compact hull
@steel creek You should not call CGMA a shill school, as all of the teachers are people who currently work in the film and games industry. The list of the teachers they have is incredible, People like Adam Skutt the Senior Character Artist for "Epic Games" teaches character design for them. There's dozens of other good examples but, you should do your research before proclaiming a school is a scam. My experience with them was fantastic. Its also a good place to network and learn from people who work at places Like Sony Studios, Epic Games, and Disney.
steel creek
I didnt call it a SHILL SCHOOL
I called the POST a SHILL POST
reading is hard
and, that still doesnt address it was an "AD"
dont advertise here -- seems simple
compact hull
Its a career advice channel, lol Relax....... also your not a mod or staff, dont pretend to be.
If you don't like the post feel free to ignore it. Also you may want to read what you wrote before becoming overly defensive "shill school"
steel creek
I read it, seems fine. I didnt claim to be a mod, ironic you telling me what to do not being one yourself. Mirrors are reflective.
kindred mason
had to look up what Shill meant.
Don't think it applies
Unless directed at him
Regardless, always do your homework when looking into any college
Especially Online-only ones.
digital gate
no, only if you macerate it
plucky hatch
what
barren lotus
Just make something and put it out there for people to play, you'll be closer to getting a job -- it can be in UE4, Unity, Blender or even MS Excel. Chet Faliszek (previously from Valve) has an amazing talk that's on YouTube about not falling victim to sharpening your pencil syndrome where you focus too much on the tools instead of just making something.
There is also another neat talk from a Respawn dev who said Titanfall was born in a room of just chairs and whiteboards before their office even had computers
spice dagger
Yeah but Respawn was also made up of industry titans lol
But dont let that dissuade you 😃
Also no pun intended
digital gate
awh man, what an epic pun
rigid bluff
wow that one paragraph really opened the valve for puns huh
white imp
hey guys, sorry if that's wrong channel
but any ideas how to properly showcase programming work in portfolio?
vivid pivot
Make a game ? 😉 Release the source open-source on something like GitHub, thats my plan
wet plank
Also. A video. The trick is to get the fish to bite, right? Make a bunch of mini-systems that showcase you have the ability to do many different things, but they don't have to be apart of an entire game if you don't want it to. That'll slow you down. But make various things. Then show videos of them working, and then do some basic scrolling of your code to show you actually programmed it. That'll get people to believe you, which is the hard part. Then from there you can release open-source code now that they're interested so they can begin to disect your code and see if they like it
limpid hornet
Anyone have any favorite website platforms for building a game/level design portfolio? I've decided not to use ArtStation because I want to have more of a focus on text and video in addition to still images. I'm considering Squarespace and Wix, but just wondering if there are any favorites among the community.
urban stump
Artstation. You kind of ruled out the main one there. Besides that, just make your own website on whatever provider you like.
You can have video on artstation though, you can embed youtube stuff
dusty jolt
Do you guys think there is a viable way for me to do some contract work a week, like say around 10 hours while i continue to study/train i want too get some engineering exp under my belt for studio's, however due too the way the uk system works right now i cant take a full time job otherwise i will lose support as i live alone and without a solid job i wouldnt be able to afford to live
tldr want to get some good studio exp under my belt, small time contractor work
hybrid phoenix
You can absolutely do part-time freelancing on the side
It's something I've been building up as well
Just put yourself out there for part-time contracting work
ashen lynx
With decent amounts of energy drink, you can combine two full-time jobs and a bit of freelancing for at least 4 months. Verified.
dusty jolt
omg
Im not really fussed about money, i am just trying to get my self put in work frameworks and be put in places where i am uncomfy, so i can grow you know
remote saffron
how do you exactly combine two full time jobs?
ocean harbor
have dinner and back to work + weekends
if you organize your days efficiently, you can have about 3-4 hours daily for second job + weekends
if you can live in the office, thats another level of optimization 😄
but burnout is a thing and not a joke
it doesn't start like something apparent either, just slowly consumes you
remote saffron
I don't think most people could do 2 full time job properly in creative field
ashen lynx
Creative? Most likely nope, indeed.
abstract kettle
2 full time jobs is really tough, but you can work 80 hours a week for a while
BoredEngineer is right though, burnout IS a real thing and it will sneak up on you after six months or a year
compact hull
<--- 12-16 hrs a day for 4 years straight 1 day off a month. 2 jobs + freelance
dusty jolt
u better be a millionaire jesus
compact hull
Learn to love what you do, then keep learning.
plucky hatch
is ue4 experience good if u want to find a job in gamedev?
or they mainly use unity
dreamy jacinth
ue4 experience is awesome if you want to work with Unreal. 😉
lilac walrus
they use whatever is suitable for the job
dreamy jacinth
again it depends. You have mobile companies using Unity, and more general games and archviz using Unreal.
ashen lynx
UE4 is a tool, not a skill. Sometimes job may require UE4 familiarity. But mostly, it would just a plus. The only exception to this is probably engine programmer positions.
karmic kayak
exp. with an engine or tool set is only a bonus.
shadow kelp
experience developing games is what matters in game dev. Although obviously if you are applying for UE roles, UE experience is going to be a plus
coarse latch
Hi!
Unreal is more widely used among medium/big companies (including AAA) for several reasons:
- Source is open. Total freedom to modify the engine.
- Render in unreal is better (as in quality/performance) than Unity (don't know about stuff like Lumberjard or CryEngine)
- Blueprints allow super fast iteration. It's really useful when you expose the bare minimum to designers so they can play around, vfx artist can hook up their stuff as audio people does too.
But, if your are looking for something to do 2D and you don't care about engine tweaking, your best option is Unity or, maybe, Cocos2D (depends on what you want to use).
Ubi, EA, TTGames, Naugthy Dog, Rockstar, CD Projekt Red... they all use their own homemade engine.
Sumo Digital, Rocksteady, Splash Damage, Avalanche Studios, Starbreeze... they use unreal.
For any of those companies, there's only one thing that matters: you know your stuff. As a programmer, you know your math, physics and how to do performance friendly code. I started in a big company without knowing any unity. A year later jumped to Unreal. I keep doing the same with a different wrapper (the engine)
So do not worry much about specialising in one engine, just grab one and do all you need to learn your stuff (AI, gameplay, design). You will be asked how you did this and that in an interview, not 'what's the name of the class that wraps the cross product function in Unity/Unreal /whatever".
flat gazelle
When did Avalanche and Starbreeze switch over to Unreal?
coarse latch
Not saying exclusively, but in some titles.
Brothers, tale of two sons, was made in Unreal (Starbreeze) and, I might be wrong but, wasn't Renegade Ops (Avalanche) made in Unreal? If not, then Avalanche is one of the home-made companies list (unless Rage 2 is made in Unreal, don't know)
Ok, never mind, I was wrong. Avalanche uses its own engine for everything.
flat gazelle
Ah, I thought you meant for their mainline games. I didn't think of the sideprojects
Then Sumo makes sense as well as they are hired guns and work in whatevs
hybrid phoenix
I'd say Unity is more prevalent though, not UE4
Large companies can get source access for unity anyway, they don't care about the renderer because they have people to fix that
Most large companies just use in-house stuff, medium and small companies use either with unity being more common in my experience
flat gazelle
Unity is veeeery Uncommon in AAA
flat gazelle
But there are AAA UE4 games. I can't think of Unity ones (don't say hearthstone...)
flat gazelle
Well, I guess they are happy about that upgrade then 😛
hybrid phoenix
Albion Online
flat gazelle
Never heard of
hybrid phoenix
It's an oddball mmo
Not sure if I'd class it as AAA
Probably not
Oh oh got one
Pokemon Go
😃
That shitshow that was the latest rollercoaster tycoon
flat gazelle
Yeah, but you don't have to struggle so much to find a couple of titles using UE4
flat gazelle
Define a lot
Is there any other engine with more highprofile games?
(I'm saying this as someone who isn't currently working in Unreal, but have shipped games with 7ish engines)
coarse latch
Sea of thieves
Gears of war 4
Tekken 7
Crackdown 3
Borderlands saga
Spec of the Line
Batman Arkham saga
Xcom
Bioshock saga
Those are all AAA games made in UE4
dreamy jacinth
and Slaughtering Ground. Dont forget that classic
hybrid phoenix
@flat gazelle Nah, there isn't
Point being; most AAA studios just use in-house engines, most non-AAA studios use Unity (in my experience)
storm cradle
Oh and the new Insurgency
hybrid phoenix
Is that really AAA, though?
hybrid phoenix
Having a publisher doesn't make you AAA
No man's sky had Sony as publisher, that doesn't make it AAA
storm cradle
True, but funding plays a role in classification.
steel creek
Yes but why?
It shouldn't
And we don't need to keep maintaining the old shity system
I've seen games that are AAA come out of Indies. Should that all the sudden now make them a AAA Studio? The classification the delineation of money to validate whether or not a studio or a product is AAA is 20 years out of date
storm cradle
I agree, it should be based on quality, but it depends on if you qualify the studio as AAA or the game
But in this case, I would argue for both points.
hybrid phoenix
A AAA-studio I class as a studio with a large amount of employees (>200 at a given time), mainly
A AAA-game I'd say is a game that comes out of it
I've long since dumped AAA as a quality standard
rigid bluff
ya to me AAA is generally a bad game these days
like blockbuster movie
I've played this before already, does nothing new, same with movies, same plot different characters know the ending from the beginning
flat gazelle
Can we go back to the old indie trends? I miss when everyone was doing timebased puzzlegames a la braid. The survival/low-poly/builder schtick has been going on for way to long now.
Bring baack the classics!
remote saffron
idk about now but last time i was looking for work (about 2.5 years ago) it was way easier to find a unity related job than unreal related
flat gazelle
Holy crap braid is ten years old :S
remote saffron
yeah that was enough time for Jonathan to make one more game 😄
and of course he is working on a compiler now so I guess we will have to wait for another 10 years for the next one
flat gazelle
mhm. I feel old
ashen lynx
indeed
remote saffron
too bad that those puzzle platformers are kinda not popular anymore
flat gazelle
They will come again. The indie scene is on a fairly fast loop as fresh meat keeps getting in on it.
remote saffron
I hope you are right about that
flat gazelle
I think we are soon due for another round of endless runners and then it should be puzzletime again 😃
remote saffron
most of those games are junk tho
well endless runners are mobile oriented in the first place so
lilac walrus
a lot of those listed games were UE3
Endless Legend on the other hand was Unity, so that's a good example of an AAA game using it
flat gazelle
If Unreal gets a specific version limitation, so should unity 😃
lilac walrus
kinda tricky since Unity have dropped version numbers
flat gazelle
Or you go the other way. All versions of UNreal vs All versions of Unity
dreamy jacinth
Hearthstone uses Unity, got to say its a tidy game
paper osprey
I'm using the current version of Unity right now. It's hot garbage.
oak niche
I don't think it's really changed that much in the last five or so years..
64-bit editor was nice I suppose.
paper osprey
Unity is getting better slowly over time. There have been some big jumps forward lately. They've nearly got a working node based shader. It feels like UDK c2012. The UI on the artist end needs a lot of work, too. I find it extremely user unfriendly.
Makes me appreciate Epic so much more
plucky hatch
._.
hybrid phoenix
I feel the exact opposite, to be honest
Just depends where your roots are, I think
storm cradle
Unreal Engine is so good for things like level design, it’s much more simple and laid out.
hybrid phoenix
I still disagree
storm cradle
Eh, honestly, Unreal does a good job of splitting it up into different pages, instead of the “all-in-one” type setup that Unity has.
solemn lantern
hot reload is questionable
upbeat comet
Hey listen i need someone for my team who is experienced in ue4
Making an fps
Game
Contact me
upbeat comet
@vivid pivotbut it is showing that i am unauthorised to send messages
vivid pivot
Use the bot, please. Read the pinned messages
upbeat comet
Hey sorry but how to use the bot
vivid pivot
Pinned messages 😉 Top right
limpid hornet
I'm getting ready to start applying to studios in June and Im trying to narrow down my list of AAA studios to apply to. Should I prioritize studios that use UE4 (most of my experience)? Or is it more important to focus on studios that have games with a similar style to my work? Or studios whose games I'm a fan of? Any general tips for studio selection would be appreciated. The reason Im trying to narrow down the list is because I want to try to start networking early and make some personal connections ahead of actually applying.
remote saffron
if you want to narrow it down you should probably select the ones making games you are interested in + try to check on the companies to see if they have a culture you would be happy to be in or not
hidden owl
yeah, that's what i was going to say as well, culture can make or break a job and it's something people don't put alot of thought into.
flat gazelle
Projects and engine is less relevant. Find a studio that values the same things you do. Culture is everything
limpid hornet
that's a good point. Hopefully I'll be able to make some connections and get a feel for what the culture is like at each studio
barren lotus
GlassDoor helps but you got to dig between the positive and negative posts to find the legit feedback
shadow kelp
yeah take glassdoor with a pinch of salt, unless there is a large sample predominantly negative, in which case you can probably find out the story via google
tardy aspen
@upbeat comet hey regarding your post in #looking-for-talent you can usually tell what people think about your offer by the reactions, if they're positive or none, it's a good offer, if they're negative reactions you might need to rethink your offer
vivid pivot
Please also refrain from posting too often (aka everyday)
tardy aspen
(Aka twice in a day)
plucky hatch
Also adding a positive reaction to your own post doesn't help the case...
spice dagger
@upbeat comet Please dont post the same job listing multiple times.
fading yoke
Applied for the Unreal Dev Grant today. I'm sure my dumb Swat4 knockoff is too garbage to be worthy of it, but I gave it a shot.
vivid pivot
@fading yoke Good luck 😃
sacred urchin
Guys a quick question for all the freelancers here. There is a client who gave me his project to create a Inventory system . Now , looking at the invent. system its a not very complex system to make, I want to know how to charge him? The system he asked is simple to make (can be done in 7 hours) but I need to study his project how to integrate is already existing functionality in this system, also some new things he asked me to add which will require me to research and do it. This will take time , however actual coding work would be less. So I should count the working hours from the time I started studying his project right ? or rather I should pick time when I started coding for it ? Please suggest
hybrid phoenix
Whichever you feel comfortable with
lilac walrus
if I didn't charge for reading code and R&D, I'd only be asking for 15 hours pay for a 40 hour working week :p
sacred urchin
I wanted to know the legitimate way
@lilac walrus you are right , if they give you a code base where you have to work, which is a considerable big, we should ask for that
flat gazelle
You are not paid to code
You are paid to solve a task
if thats 20 hours of reading and figuring it out and 1 h of coding to do it, you charge for 21 hours
shut tree
tell him the deal and ask what he wants
remote saffron
no way imo, understanding their junk is part of the job
asking him if he wants to pay for that is a bit weird
shut tree
no, he might want to integrate it himself
remote saffron
oh dat, good point I guess, my bad then
shut tree
that part could be a 100 hours can o worms 😛
you might be fixing his broken stuff until he cant even read it anymore 😛
ashen lynx
Hell, R&D portion is like 40%-80% of the work. Can't just ignore it. @sacred urchin If you are new and inexperienced, and can't do a decent manhour approximation, go with your best guess work scope estimation, but base the final sum on the total number of workhours in the end. It is not uncommon to have a lot of leeway in time estimation.
shut tree
if u look at his stuff and have no idea should let him know asap tho
ashen lynx
True.
shut tree
if ur like hey i been doin stuff for 300 hours .. it sorta works now.. thats bad
wild solstice
the way i do it is set up a budget upfront
estimate how much work is required and if it can fit the budget, if not then you work out the compromises before going in
ashen lynx
Problem is half of the clients want work done thrice the scope of initial inquiry at half the price, delivered yesterday.
Especially in lower tier.
wild solstice
there are problems on both sides
it's easy to rake up hours
i can spend 100 hours on UX testing the inv system
might be overkill and not needed
dreamy jacinth
people underestimate the work that goes into a UI. It's a lot of messing around,
wild solstice
by setting up a budget up front with the client we work out a lot of the stuff that could turn out nasty
i like it because we can set proper expectations at the start
it keeps me in check so i dont waste hours on what is not absolutely necessary to achieve the goal
If i can work on site i prefer hourly rate
because you usually have someone supervising you
with programming it's easier to define the exact scope and functionality needed
an artist might spend too much time making tiny details that might not even be readable in the end
dreamy jacinth
its also easier to fail in application of said functionality due to unforseen circumstances 😄
wild solstice
true
dreamy jacinth
I always feel embarassed when people say "how much time would this take?" because I don't know. I know if I understand it, and if I can do it, but I have no idea how long it will take.
ashen lynx
I can also say that managing outsource is an equal hell to being a freelancer.
dreamy jacinth
case in point, I made a system in blueprints that took me a day. I thought "this would be better in C++ with some modification". So I start doing it. 3 weeks later im still doing it.
i havent even slacked either
wild solstice
so what do you do when you find out it will take you more time then the client has budget for ?
dreamy jacinth
explain why as soon as possible
wild solstice
do you also demand any compensation?
it has happened to me that on two occasion that i was unable to finish
dreamy jacinth
if its gonna take more time yes. Thats why its important to tell them ASAP. Then they decide if they can afford the extra money.
ashen lynx
It seems, that disgregarding the scope of work you'd put into writing a task specifications, contractors will shower you with bits of clarification questions. Half of which are already covered in specification and the other half being details, which are done faster than comms on those details.
wild solstice
in both cases i explained it ASAP and didnt demand any compensation, for the already done work
luckily it was only a few days
dreamy jacinth
I used to have a rule when freelancing websites that I would lay down the scope, estimate the hours and if it took more then I would gracefully complete those extra hours for free. I have done that freelancing games dev also, but its trickier because the scope is usually 100x that of a website
wild solstice
both cases were - client would not be able to afford it for the time it requires
dreamy jacinth
it sounds ruthless, but unless you have something to gain, drop unpaying clients like hot coal. People will always try exploit you. Thats fine if you have something to gain, but if not, move onto someone who can pay you
wild solstice
true
ashen lynx
How do you gentlemen meet unpaying clients ?
dreamy jacinth
they mostly dont start out as unpaying clients. They kind of end up as that 😄
wild solstice
i had 2 cases of non paying clients in 25 years
mostly i deal with clients who dont have a lot of money at their disposal
dreamy jacinth
I had dozens of non-paying clients in web dev. Not in game dev tho
wild solstice
so i have to fit their budgets
ashen lynx
50% upfront and 50% one week before delivery works like a charm. Same applies for time-based payments.
wild solstice
i dont like taking money upfront
never have actually
but i like to have milestones
dreamy jacinth
I did a website for a company selling garage doors. I finished the site and when it came to payment, he wanted to give me the equivalent of £1.16 an hour for my work. So I didn't give him the site. He said "That's really unprofessional of you" and I replied "Pay me and you can have the website. That's how it works" and added it to my portfolio of unpayed clients :/
wild solstice
haha that pretty much the same situation i had
only my reply was 'well you're not paying me as a professional'
also 75% of my freelancing work is video production
there the budget upfront thing works better
dreamy jacinth
all of my freelancing work in games dev was to build a portfolio and get experience. Now im experienced, im working on my own stuff until someone pays me what im worth :p
wild solstice
programming freelance work has not been a fun experience for me
hard to get paid properly
dreamy jacinth
I worked for 2 years on a project without source control. That had its fun moments and its "why u no source control?" moments 😄
wild solstice
ouch, fun times indeed
ashen lynx
After I signed contract with my current employer 2 years ago, and inquired about SC access, I was surprised to know that there was no version control employed at all.
Was expecting it to be a tarp and preparing to chute off within a week.
I was pretty darn wrong.
wild solstice
~15 years ago i worked at a business software 'company' for a brief time, they had no source control but i was the only programmer on the project
did daily zip backups, doable for a single dev
but can't imagine working in a large team without SC
ashen lynx
Yep, same case. Before I joined, there was only one programmer, who prototyped the engine from scratch.
sacred urchin
where do you find clients for game dev ?
For Unreal Game dev, there are not much of the portals I found, other than linkedin
dreamy jacinth
mine is word of mouth, or facebook, or here usually.
ashen lynx
Surprisingly, word of mouth seems to have yielded most juicy contracts, including long time employment. Some came from fr.com like websites. Some received after mailing several studios.
There is no such thing is Unreal Game Dev though
dreamy jacinth
I get a lot of invites from recruitment companies on linkedin but I rarely take those. Im not giving some company a cut of my wage for being an email spammer.
ashen lynx
I do get messages on discord often nowdays, including unreal slackers, but can't comment about it because I've refused all due to schedule so far.
dreamy jacinth
same. I get them on facebook about once a week thanks to the UE4 group
ashen lynx
For an artist, polycount forum and artstation would also be a good clientbase source, but that is just a guess.
dreamy jacinth
yeah artstation seems like a good place for artists. We need a good place for coders, but I guess that's stackoverflow :p
ashen lynx
stackoverflow seems to be google it for me contest.
dreamy jacinth
hah its pretty good for native C and C++ stuff. Although I get confused as hell at the way they explain stuff because its a bit.. erm.... elitist? Not that its a bad thing, but if you don't keep up, nobody holds your hand.
ashen lynx
As a learning resource, yeah, it is elitist for a reason that majority of the questions asked can be answered by a link from a first page of search results. but.. I think it is more good than bad. As a job platform, I can't comment on it. Looking through it from time to time. Occasionally gold-worth jobs pop up, like this one:
salary is disappointing but the job is godlike.
shut tree
disappointing and godlike dont mix
tardy aspen
Unpaid shouldn't be allowed in the looking for work
Unless it's like an unpaid internship
digital gate
wot
ashen lynx
@shut tree Working as IT specialist in a non-IT centered industry so far had been quite pleasant experience, but yes, godlike job times low salary yields something average.
tardy aspen
@spice dagger Internships are generally the opportunity to learn for free, but unpaid jobs here often feel more like people looking for talent they aren't going to find because nobody is willing to work for free
flat gazelle
Is there a recruitment drive going on in the industry right now? The recruiter spam is reaching new levels this week.
ashen lynx
It seems so.
lilac walrus
it's that time of year
not so much an industry wide recruitment drive, as the annual recruiter flocking
I don't know why it happens, but it does
mental viper
end of semester?
kindred mason
COLLEGE GRADS
`nuff said
Over 3000 new potential recruits from just Game Development degrees just graduated
Add to that CS/Programming degrees
lilac walrus
that doesn't really make sense, since there's no point spamming people unless there are specific positions to fill
lilac walrus
you don't contact a senior engineer about entry level positions and vice versa
kindred mason
You can
And should
As a recruiter, you don't know what their situation is right now
You never know if they are in need of a job, were thinking about leaving their cushy job
lilac walrus
why would you contact a fresh graduate about a senior engineering role?
that makes literally no sense
lilac walrus
you're just wasting everyone's time
kindred mason
You are only looking at it from your own perspective
lilac walrus
it doesn't make sense from any perspective
kindred mason
sigh
ashen lynx
As a rule, recruiters spam with random junk, with zero correlation between position in question and the person receiving the message.
lilac walrus
you get that too, of course
ashen lynx
It is like their wages are tied to amount of messages they send out.
kindred mason
Probably not
More than ikely, it's who they recruit
Or how many they actually get into the job
So the spam is just to get it out there and pray
lilac walrus
usually recruiters get commission on new hires
the people sending out spam are the ones who are 'spraying and praying' - and are usually completely useless
kindred mason
The fact that they spam low-high ends, doesn't matter. Because as I said. Sometimes even those with a crapton of experience/years at a job, might want a change of pace.
lilac walrus
companies ignore them because they just send a load of junk applications
hiring managers usually have enough applications to sift through without the additional pile of 'whatever shit we can fling their way'
fading yoke
When I got out of University in 2010, I as a new grad was competing for jobs against people who had just been laid off and who already had years of experience. Life has not gone well for me.
lilac walrus
2008-2012 was not a great time to try and kickstart a games career
fading yoke
I went from being a new grad competing against recently-laid-off career folk for entry level jobs to being an unemployable loser competing against new grads for entry level jobs.
lilac walrus
well, no - if you keep working on your stuff in your spare time and building something of a portfolio, you'll be hireable
kindred mason
Yeah
I think more confidence helps also
But, perseverance is key in anything you do, but especially so in Game Dev
fading yoke
I think a lack of confidence is a symptom rather than a cause
kindred mason
Symptom of not getting work?
Maybe. I suppose it depends on the person.
I don't like losing.
Actually...I hate it.
So, I use my weakness as a strength.
Last year when I really started freelancing post-graduation. I already had my website/portfolio, resume, every checkmark ticked off.
I had plenty of offers (from recruitment spam and others) but they all required relocation and I wasn't ready for that.
It took roughly two-three weeks before I got my first contract (remote). It was a small contract, just playtesting someone's game, logging in bugs, giving them feedback on their game.
fading yoke
I've never had recruiters spam me with job offers, personally. Only with offers to do a phone screen or to solicit a resume from me. -- sorry if I misunderstood you
kindred mason
But, once the momentum started, it kept going.
hybrid phoenix
You got an actual contract for playtesting?
hybrid phoenix
I'd love to do that, but I've never seen people asking for it
kindred mason
I haven't posted on that thread since last year due to having full-time contracts since Sept
Sometimes I'll get some asking for a free playtest. Sometimes I'll do it.
ROFL. Man, that negative review
Brings me back
honest cipher
@kindred mason i dont really look too hard for work, most of the time i get stuff through contacts
if i ever want a job, i start doing articles or similar
very nice thread, btw
honest cipher
thats pretty much it, yeah
kindred mason
But the initial step can be overwhelming a bit
honest cipher
similar to me
kindred mason
But not giving it up is key
honest cipher
i got a lot of contracts back on the start of UE4
tidal sable
Articles? Is that just to have more eyeballs looking at you / your work?
tidal sable
I get folks asking me to do tutorials regularly, but never hear anything pertaining to employment. 😦
so maybe I need to reconsider my stance on tutorials
honest cipher
that is exactly how it works @tidal sable
high end articles/tutorials get eyes looking to you, and show that you know your shit
kindred mason
It mostly came down from just Word Of Mouth and finding me all over the place in the community
Upwork also
kindred mason
Once people start noticing your name in a lot of places, they will push you up in their list to contact
Meh, I don't like it either, But it's free promotion
Either way, you don't lose
Literally had a full time (temp) contract last year that paid me good money just because they saw me on Upwork, forums, and some other place (can't remember, maybe Linkedin), and they emailed me direclty.
flat gazelle
And once your name is associated with enough good projects the flood gates are open.
fading yoke
I always hear about flood gates opening or whatever once you get hit magic set of circumstances but idk
flat gazelle
What does your Mobygames page look like?
fading yoke
This is the first time I've ever heard of that website
It looks like it was made in 2005
flat gazelle
Yep, but until igdb is up and running it's the best we've got
fading yoke
Here's a sanitized resume that I use for Game Development-related jobs. It has a bunch of links to the projects I've worked on: <link removed>
Everything in my experience section is either unpaid or just has very little money.
remote saffron
do they want relocation?
their tech is cool but If I were you I would not move to Ukraine 😄
karmic kayak
they're in Malta afaik 😄
honest cipher
@remote saffron new studio in malta
no way in hell i go to ukranie
whatever the fuck they pay
but in malta, a tiny island in the mediterranean? fuck yes
remote saffron
yeah I can see why 😄
fading yoke
I'd go to Malta if it meant a paycheck
honest cipher
salary is definitely high
so im ok with it
it would be 3 times more than what i would get paid in spain
remote saffron
which position did you apply for?
r&d or engine?
or graphics?
Fluent in Russian and/or English 😄
hybrid phoenix
Would never go to Malta for worrk
Went there once
Don't need to ever go there again
remote saffron
?
what's the problem there?
i have no idea what it is like so idk, looks like something too south to me (I prefer cold weather) but other than that idk 😄
hybrid phoenix
It's an arid hunk of stone in the middle of a jellyfish-ridden sea
It has the bad parts of desert and the bad parts of the mediterranean
But not really any of the good parts
delicate apex
and it sounds expensive
fading yoke
I wish I were so gainfully employed that I could have the luxury of looking down my nose at job opportunities
I'm lucky to get a phone screen
undone arrow
i hate the bot gives me 30 seconds to write something when got a whole paragraph urgh
spice dagger
Write it in an text editor first, copy/paste
empty ravine
ctrl+c/ctrl+v mabye
lol
fading hatch
Hi, my future goal is to study game design at university, connect with ppl and somehow get into the industry as a game designer, producer or programmer. There are some unis offering specific game design courses here in germany, and most of them require a portfolio to apply. I'm proud, because I started GameDev in Jan, 2017, and already have a lot of projects to show, but I doubt that my portfolio can compete with other applicants. quick look: https://tankbuster.carbonmade.com/ Do you think this is generally enough to be accepted or do they require more? If yes -> what should I improve on? Should i make and present quick prototypes, or like full games that take a lot of time? Should I focus a little more on asthetics and visual design, since most courses focus on 2D/3D art, too?
Thanks for halp ^^
shadow kelp
you're applying for a course to learn, not for a job...portfolio looks fine
shadow kelp
respectable portfolio for junior grade job tbh
languid meadow
Hi,
I'm a VR/AR gameplay programmer with 2 years of experience. I have been working on 2 projects for last several months, one is an interactive VR experience (gamified) and is targeted at Vive, Oculus and PSVR. The other is an AR game targeted at Android and iOS using ARCore. Both projects are absolutely new in terms of story and gameplay, and each asset required is created in house at my current company. Sadly I can't disclose any information about those at present because of NDA.
I'm looking for feedback on my current profile and portfolio. Specifically answers to these questions:
Where should I have been in terms of skill set with that experience?
Am I a good fit for emerging VR content development companies?
What salary should I be expecting with this experience?
What are pros and cons of my profile?
Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
tardy aspen
Hmm interesting in looking for talent
Sounds like a half life extension
But instead of source it's ue?
languid meadow
?
fading hatch
@shadow kelp Thank you! 😃
shadow kelp
better portfolio than I had when I got my job 😛
urban stump
Okay, this is the second time you posted this to the wrong channel
<@&213101288538374145>
urban stump
I told him about #looking-for-talent , completely ignored me and now he's spreading it further
hoary lily
@urban stump
sorry i have bad english
hybrid phoenix
Then you're going to be having a hard time with most other developers around here
Because we all communicate in English
hoary lily
I force myself to try to understand
hybrid phoenix
How are you expecting people from here to work for you if you can't communicate with them properly...?
hybrid phoenix
Read the pinned messages in the channel
spice dagger
@hoary lily Please read the #old-rules you can also find an guide on how to use the @plucky hatch to make job listings in the pinned messages or in the #more-resources channel.
hoary lily
it's announcements?
jovial oyster
@fading hatch
- your portfolio is more than 90% of applying students can show, keep it up, do projects, learn and improve
- any school offering game design or digital arts in germany is bad and sucks your money
- try to find a trainee position in a small studio and learn by working in the industry
ancient light
can anybody reccomend a colledge of cgi with elearning?
fading yoke
I hear that 10k in sales is really hard to get these days as an indie developer. Do any professionals here have a similar opinion?
fading yoke
10k in sales at $20 per sale on Steam would be $120,000 after Steam's cut.
So with a team of 3 people you'd have to make 2 releases per year at that level of sales and price to be able to make $80k before taxes (assuming all 3 team members got the equal share of the sales).
steel creek
so then just make 4 releases and cover yourself x2 😄
minor saffron
That's also assuming all your games sell at full price and you have no expenses whatsoever besides payroll, which seems overly optimistic to me :v
either that or I'm bad at math
steel creek
bad at math? pffffttt ---- welcome to modern game dev + software engineering!
honest cipher
@fading yoke pretty sure not a single guy here has made that amount of sales
except the epic games staff
its not hard, its nearly impossible to do
lilac walrus
Depth sold well (~6 man team)
honest cipher
from half to a million owner says steamspy
lilac walrus
yes
honest cipher
damn
2014 steam tho
back when you got into steam and automatically had a huge crowd looking at your game
this was before greenlight, no?
lilac walrus
it's been able to consistently sell though
this one skipped greenlight, but wasn't before
honest cipher
neat
honest cipher
damn
karmic kayak
I'm pretty sure there are quite a few guys here with more sales than 10k. They just don't talk about it. more than 10k sales as a team that is.
flat gazelle
Hehe
ashen lynx
steamspy stats are so overrated
lilac walrus
they're not great, but they're the only insight you can get
astral solstice
Marketing guys marketing
Half of it is marketing
Make short videos of your game and keep posting
Get viral
Use all social media channels
Contact social media influencers
Get on Twitch regularly
Getting sales is the easy part for me, making the game is hard
Facebook ads, IG ads, Google adwords
Website SEO
Steam SEO
Give back to the gaming community
Giveaways
Make free content
Document your journey to making a game
Speak at meetups
Make sure current users are retained by directly communicating with them and making them feel like you care about them and that they are special
Games are very visual, making attention grabbing videos and pictures is easier than let's say marketing a mobile app
But again if you don't have a good game, marketing will only make u fail faster
drowsy grove
Not great at GD yet but marketing is something I can do. Product must be good but having an idea of your target audience will go a long way to not only making your advertising effective but affordable.
kindred mason
Hmmmmmmmm, 10k sales.... Wouldn't be enough for me and the team (total sales anyway). Maybe 10k sales in a first month of launch.
plucky hatch
people here have sold ALOT more over 10k but i dont think they want to publicly release there private earnings imo
but tbh selling 10k copies of a game for 120 thousand jeeze i would have to work for about 4 years lol
honest cipher
@kindred mason your game on PSVR can get more than 10k sales easy
it has quite a good hype behind and PSVR sells tons
plus nonvr version of course
kindred mason
Aye.
karmic kayak
slightly OT but what kind of games you think go well on PSVR? might answer in #lounge so we dont clutter this channel hehe @honest cipher
honest cipher
gamepad vr games work much, much better than on PC
becouse a lot of players want to play sitted with dualshock
for the rest, is like normal VR gamers, just less pedantic
fading yoke
I'm a little suspicious of the dismissive "10k sales is easy" rhetoric because all I'm reading here is hand-waving
minor saffron
the only games i ever want to play in VR are flight/space shooter/driving games that don't make me use squirrelly motion controllers
but I don't think I'm a typical VR user
lilac walrus
'squirrely motion controllers'
what the heck are you using?
the Vive controllers are accurate down to the millimeter level when set up correctly
ancient light
can anybody reccomend a cgi colledge with elearning?
minor saffron
I believe gnomon is pretty good
urban stump
^I can vouch for Gnomon, I graduated there myself
It's good
At least in the USA, it's the best. Not sure about elsewhere.
minor saffron
with elearning?
steel creek
better schools in the US for CG/VFX in Film/TV?
not really
their "video" stuff is ok -- but onsite education is litearlly an industry standard
vast hatch
Wish i cud do game dev but mum wants me to be a doctor lol
spice dagger
How old are you?
ashen lynx
mum cares about your survival. Listen to her.
kindred mason
Doctor 6 figures but something like 10 years of school + residency
GameDev, no schooling required and you can get pretty close to lower end of 6 figures relatively fast
Doctor, anal probing a lot
Game Dev, no probings required
Doctor, you won't have time to play video games
Game Dev, you make em (but sometimes you still won't have time to play other video games but your own)
ivory atlas
if I turned down my dream job after understanding that relocation is too hard for me at this point. Will I ever able to find another one?
Doctors will be replaced by computers faster then game dev
kindred mason
GameDevs wll be replaced by AI
As for turning down jobs...do it as much as you want
Has never had any effect on me
Plenty of jobs out there looking for specific skillsets
Make sure you got the chops and apply
(also, related to reloc, plenty of Remote jobs)
ivory atlas
well I wasn't able to find those kind of remote jobs
I trying to be Tech Artist
you kinda need a big team so your tools for making art can be usefull and stuff
kindred mason
@ivory atlas Show me your portfolio
ivory atlas
ivory atlas
it's links
kindred mason
I know
ivory atlas
but ok I see
kindred mason
I'm just trying to be a bit brutal here, so it might have some effect
Mine isn't all that much better
And severely outdated
But I have no need for a job right now
immediately, people will know by the url name, what this is, or have an idea anyway
second, it has color 😉
ivory atlas
It's a lot of work to maintain website like this.
kindred mason
You have an awesome article on 80.lv, but aren't showcasing it
no it's not
Took me a weekend to create mine
I might have updated it 3 times, for a total of 6 hours?
Wordpress it up
ivory atlas
well I had things like that before and it took a lot of time
kindred mason
Save yourself some time, use your time more efficiently
ivory atlas
but I also put all of my arch viz project there
and they got outdated fast
like render quality
kindred mason
Are you a Tech Artist ?
Because you state Generalist in that article.
Your Art Station is sorely lacking in anything
ivory atlas
yeah I am trying to be tech artist
kindred mason
Russian?
ivory atlas
yes
kindred mason
K, I was trying to read your location and gave up 😃
Is there a way to put that in Roman English?
ivory atlas
crazy website lol 😃
ivory atlas
I think it's automatic thing too
kindred mason
Anyway
ivory atlas
not sure
kindred mason
you have more stuff on Sketchfab?
Put that over in ArtStation
And breakdown it up
ivory atlas
I have this un credited work for a museum https://sketchfab.com/szxz/collections/collection
I planing to do breakdown of my ue4 archviz stuff next
but I have 2 freelance project atm and I have to do that pretty quick
kindred mason
Cool. Other than jobs, try to get a few personal projects
Small things, build up that portfolio
If you can, go outside your comfort zone
Showcase you truly understand the workflow from DCC to UE4 and back and can adapt to situations as they require
Create some tools inside UE4
Other than ArtchVis, try LowPoly stuff, Cartoony, stuff like that
ivory atlas
arch viz ue4
ivory atlas
ivory atlas
lol I had several
And I don't like all sort of fx now
like I want very simple style
kindred mason
Do you have any VR or AR experience?
kindred mason
You own an HMD?
ivory atlas
I am not sure what is HMD
kindred mason
Vive/Oculus
ivory atlas
oh no it was cardboard game
kindred mason
So fake vr
ivory atlas
on unity
kindred mason
But that's cool
ivory atlas
also I did this strange prototype that was fun to play but then I changed my workflows to be more realistic and stop doing that
My portfolio is all other the place because I am not sure what I am actually focusing atm
but I gravitate to procedural stuff
Anyway I feel like I made a mistake and I should have relocated
ashen lynx
@ivory atlas So far can confirm everything said by Victor. 1) Ditch that SAF site and make a proper portfolio. 2) If you are linking sketchfab, for the love of everything good in this world, ditch what you have there, and show some proper models. It does not add anything credible, looking at meetmat figurine from substance contest, especially if sketchfab automatically shows you selections of the same model, but textured far more diligently. 3) You artstation page looks good and shows taste for good presentation, but unfortunately does not display any skills, even related to SD, which it seems to be centered on. 4) Arch viz example, that you linked up, looks good, but it is pretty basic, and below standards for a job. 5) Get rid of ru e-mail( or at least ensure, that mail servers are not in russia). You might find out that you have missed an invitation to an interview, just because the country is walling in its whole internet. 6) If you want to receive technical artist position interview, you will inevitably need to step into scripting and coding. There are SD and houdini centered jobs, but they are in minority.
ivory atlas
I do scripting and coding
ivory atlas
@ashen lynx can you please tell me why exactly you think arch viz example looks basic?
ashen lynx
@ivory atlas If you have credible coding work, gotta show it. So far everything you've linked does not indicate in any way that you have any coding skills. As for arvh viz, long version: 1) Shot composition choice looks weird for interior visualization. 2) Lighting setup. White walls and white curtains already make up somewhat clean hospital look. Could have added some warmth from the sunlight. Darkened corner in bottom right is not something you want for interior shot. 3) Material work. I can't help it, but the only material that reads, is couch. All wood in the scene looks like a maniac with sandpaper was locked in this room for a month. Round table support, what material it is made of? 4) Modelling. The only model, that corresponds to acceptable level of quality is again, the couch. It kinda makes me believe, that couch was not made by you. You have chair on the foreground. Its back support is either square profiled with soft normals by mistake, or round-profiled with really not enough geo for the purpose. Overall, the scene is plain and lacks details. Short version: Take a first random search result of visualizer portfolio in your local area and compare it to yours side by side.
ivory atlas
Thanks for feedback
proper quartz
does anyone here use c#? Im trying to get a procces ID but for some reason it doesnt get it
ashen lynx
@ivory atlas Push your materials and substance work. Practice some basic prop modelling. These two land you a job. Drop all forms of generalism, including animation and arch vis. Won't help you. And don't feel bad about taking down job offers, but keep in mind, that with this job you will eventually need to relocate. On-site work in this field in your country is a joke salary/cost of living wise.
@proper quartz wrong channel
ivory atlas
@ashen lynx Arch viz is my current job. Can't drop it 🙂 I can explain why problems with this image happened but it's not really important to the topic. Basically I do have a job and I don't really need to find one. And it's more about passion then money or something.
And sure it's worse then 3d max + corona workflow quality vise but blender->ue4 is cheaper workflow and iteration is faster
then you google arch viz portfolios you basically find most awesome people/studios. It's like AAA and indie games
there is a lot more clients then AAA top quality stuff
ashen lynx
It is somewhat strange to hear regrets about not taking job opportunity and expression of willingness to become a techie and statements that one can't find remote positions for the job in question only to stumble into a conclusion that you are content with your current position. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
ivory atlas
dream job vs current job
I not to happy with current job but it is what it is
I feel regret that I am too comfortable with my current job to actually improve in a meaningful way
And it's not enough for me I want better more interesting tasks
ashen lynx
Yeah well that is problematic, especially considering that being on a visualizer position alone has absolutely no growth, apart from evolving your own establishment.
On the other hand, plenty free time to improve yourself and prepare for a dream job.
but each time you get a dream job, dreams seems to shatter for some reason.
ivory atlas
considering I want to be an indie dev in the end anyway
but to be good indie dev you need experience
and creating tools is something I want to do
there is a lot of ways I can go from here
shadow kelp
go for a tools programmer role? Good way to get industry experience
analog moss
ok guys really have a question fro. the bottom of my mind, doesnt each company have its own developed game engine? will they give you a period of time to learn before working?
karmic kayak
some studios have their own tech and you're expected to work with the engine within a brief timeframe. They're not paying you for learning all day long for weeks or even months hehe