no, we're gonna ask whether it's relevant to this group
#career-chat
lilac walrus
if I post asking for a 3d artist to model industrial components, is it still relevant?
acoustic zealot
@plucky hatch Has nothing to do with bandwagon. If he wants general 3D artist he could go to a polygon forum/discord channel. If he wants one for Unity he can go to a unity Discord. See the point I'm making?
Tell me, do you walk in to McDonalds and ask for BurgerKing food?
plucky hatch
Mm... No
There are 3D artist in this server that aren't in Unity because they mostly work with Unreal or they don't know about it.
Still Modelling isn't engine specific.
& for ambershee, it could be, maybe someone out here could model game ready assets as well as industrial components. Emphasis on could.
It shouldn't stop someone from posting something that is not engine specific. (as long as they follow the server rules).
ocean harbor
I could assemble Ikea furniture...
plucky hatch
He is not asking for Burger king food, he is asking for burger.
He only specified that my burger could taste like Subway's sandwhich.
ocean harbor
I agree that modelling might be not engine specific, when it's not engine specific. But he did specify engine, so why post here then?
and he is asking about characters, which are engine specific, so...
acoustic zealot
I'll end it with this from the #old-rules Content that does not adhere to the following will be deleted at anytime by moderators:
β’ Must be Unreal Engine related.
lilac walrus
thing is, if I'm looking for an Unreal Engine job, and I'm looking in an Unreal specific job posting board, I don't want to have to sift through jobs that aren't relevant to me
obviously this is only one post, but now imagine that there are thirty of them?
plucky hatch
@ocean harbor I didn't notice that detail about characters.
& based on that rule a lot of programmer job should be deleted? (Must have experience with C#?) -
acoustic zealot
Your argument is invalid my man
ocean harbor
"Need experience UE4 engineer to assemble Ikea furniture" - my post adhers to the rules, but we obviously have problem with it, aren't we?
C# is used beyond Unity and some folks are moving code between engines or use it to make tools
@plucky hatch nothing personal, it's just super easy to trigger people when out of 50 posts, 45 are already "Unpaid and Permanent" positions
and then you see one about Unity...
lilac walrus
to be fair, small parts of UE4 use (or at least used to use) C#
hybrid phoenix
Still do afaik
steel creek
build pipe uses it
why be butthurt over a Unity person advertising here, if they need a coder or an artist? What effect does it have on your life? Should not you be happy they are compelled to post here because of the awareness that Unreal is popular and in use? You guys need to rejoice more and reject less.
Besides the fact, Art is engine neutral -- someone will want to argue I am sure. Love of your workflow != truth.
and someone saying they want a BURGER and going to Five Guys, or McD's or In&Out or BurgerKing: Its still a burger. The "style" is the target of choice.
acoustic zealot
thing is, if I'm looking for an Unreal Engine job, and I'm looking in an Unreal specific job posting board, I don't want to have to sift through jobs that aren't relevant to me
obviously this is only one post, but now imagine that there are thirty of them?
Don't do selective reading if you want to judge right or wrong.
plucky hatch
Considering the post is unpaid and only says 3D Artist, it probably means you're going to be the one setting up the models up in engine
plucky hatch
@acoustic zealot "Tell me, do you walk in to McDonalds and ask for BurgerKing food?"
No, but you can walk into both asking for french fries.
acoustic zealot
@plucky hatch Nice one, touche?
plucky hatch
;p
crystal schooner
Out of curiosity, does anyone have any suggestions for questions to ask an interviewer? Either generic or specific to programming positions
ashen lynx
I'd ask about anything on the web being firewalled off in the office. Working environment without memes is merciless and setting up a VPN is unnecessary hassle.
On a serious note, if you can come with a question, answer to which can alter your decision to work for the company in question, feel free to ask it. You visiting the interview already implies that you are interested in the job.
north narwhal
that's a terrible question to ask
for engineering questions, I always like to ask "How do you fit your production pipeline to deal with bugs?"
it generally tells you whether or not you are going to crunch or not
fair willow
I'd think if you ask something like that it would make you seem suspicious.
Why try to circumvent the workplace firewall?
kindred mason
Joke, head. Miss.
dusty jolt
POOF!
ashen lynx
@north narwhal "How do you fit your production pipeline to deal with bugs?" And if given an answer, that does not satisfy you, will you terminate the interview at once, refuse the job and walk away ?
kindred mason
Crunch is sadly 95% of the industry
AAA or Indie. Even if you have the best production managers, you will still see it.
Although, from what I've been reading lately... I don't consider months-long "crunching" actual crunch.
That's just utter stupidity
north narwhal
Depends on the answer to be honest
If it's "we don't do anything"... Yeah that's a no
fickle hatch
What if the answer is "...what's a production pipeline?"
digital gate
run?
fickle hatch
π
ashen lynx
That kinda reinforces the point that the only questions to be asked, when interviewed, are the ones, directly or indirectly relating to your personal comfort, but if and only if, cumulative answers would actually matter in you deciding if the job is to be taken or not, and obviously only if your status correlates to position applied and you can actually afford taking down the offer. But even so, most of such questions should be clarified before the interview, not at it. Your presence on the interview itself should mean that you are ready to take up the job. Questions, especially technical ones, if they are not related to minimum level of your comfort, seem absolutely pointless to me. Those should be asked during first days on the job, not at the interview. And to me, question regarding availability of standing desks for workplaces, seems much more appropriate, than a question about handling bugs in the pipeline. If you are currently not in a position(mainly financially) to skip the offering, and viewing such questions as opportunity to sell yourself better, my advice would be to skip asking them. Seeing through such ones is trivial.
vernal rune
months long crunching == production hell / death march
hybrid phoenix
I would say that it's a valid question to ask, though
Where else would you ask it? I'd say an interview is the best place for that
bronze solar
So the job role of "level design" is that someone who models things or something who writes what happen and why with a specific level of mission. See a few job titles that have two different requirements for this role
bronze solar
So if I saw a job posting of "level designer" that wanted modelling, would I be correct in think they actually want a environment artist?
ruby heron
you take the models made by the artists and the mechanics made by the programmers and you make levels with them
No they probably expect their level designers to have other applicable# skills
Anyone can design a level really
small teams generally you need to have multiple skills
knotty cosmos
or small indie studios, where usually skillsets are shared sometimes
near shell
tribal trout
ashen lynx
Depends on specific positions, but I don't think anyone considers degree mandatory these days.
vivid pivot
What kind of job are you interested in then ? For a programmer position, yes, it adds value
karmic kayak
for gameplay designer an engineering degree isn't necessary per-se, but ofc you would need a strong understanding of programming and scripting. So an degree could potentially help.
junior hull
@tight spoke the people I know who work at Ubisoft started as QA testers after a 3 years bachelor in Game Design and no specific other degrees. Some of them raised to higher positions (like Junior Gameplay Designer) and some did not.
grim elk
it still amazes me that QA seen as a starting level for other things like designer role. Cmon guys it is not, next level for QA is next level QA and in terms of money compensation, I remember that Junior Designers had a bit more money than Junior (Entry level) tester, but definitely less than next tier Tester.
Wait, this is a career advice channel, here is advice, do what you want to do and focus on it all the way. Of course you would have great exposure to how the things are while you are QA, but if you want to be artist - do some art that is the only way you become better artists, same goes for engineering, design and everything else.
ashen lynx
@tight spoke If your family can't afford educating you abroad, costs of living, education itself, and costs of risk that you won't find a job after graduating, you might as well consider getting education in a field, that pays well, work up until you have a house/appt or two, a car, and backup for few years of slack. By then, you will be able to pay for yourself or even open your own business, related to game development.
flat gazelle
Get good and companies relocate you
flat gazelle
If you get good enough on your own, a company will pay to relocate you
remote saffron
that's not a big thing as a software engineer actually
and imo if you are not in a position to just go learn game dev in school locally you should not get a degree at all
it isn't that important
and the cost for you seems to be just too high
at the end you will need to do the learning on your own anyway
software engineer is a good start
but even at that if you only do the minimum stuff you have to do in university it doesn't worth anything
ashen lynx
The key part here is "if". And while getting good, at what you want to be, you might actually need to eat. Ranges are pretty spread, but tuition costs are around 10-40 kilodollars mark, not including accommodation, food and concomitant expenses. What I think is really important, that you can't afford just picking any school. You gotta go for best ones, that do actually teach something. Desire of people to dive into gamedev is being commercialized on, and number of establishments, that claim to give such education, is incomparably higher, than number of ones, that actually give it. And after all, when you, having a bachelors degree in game design, is matched against a person of equal skill, without any formal eudcation, you will have nothing more, than a slight headstart. @tight spoke
remote saffron
thing is
it's 21th
if you learn stuff on your own you improve the very skills you will need to have if you work in IT
the actual value of a degree is not really as much as people giving it would like it to be
that's cool
I studied something between computer science/software engineer, left school after bachelor degree to work full time in game industry, then I left that after 2 years to work on own project
plucky hatch
Isn't it pretty hard to move the US without a degree though?
remote saffron
i was never in US though
plucky hatch
More for @tight spoke 's case
remote saffron
if you manage to get work there they take care of that
without that it is complicated afaik
plucky hatch
It costs thousands for an employer to move someone over if they don't have a degree
From what I've heard at least
ashen lynx
Speaking about degrees, two weeks ago I've been witnessing an interview of a gentleman for a position of something web-related back end developer. He had bachelor's degree in computer science and master's degree in applied mathematics. He failed to answer a question: "Which sorting algorithms are you aware of? "
remote saffron
that's pretty much explains my own opinion about degrees π
ashen lynx
yep
plucky hatch
What the heck is game design degree anyway?
ashen lynx
Something very popular these days
remote saffron
yes, but I obviously needed the money for that first
on the other hand I have seen people who wanted to do own project but ended up stuck at workplaces for the rest of their lifes
so it kinda depends I guess
i did not care about comfort zone, I studied computer science to make my own game, so that's what I do π
it's expensive but I'm young π
25 actually
ashen lynx
Lets be honest, the statistics of IT specialists, successfully moving out of India, weighted against total number is not looking favorable for you.
remote saffron
20$ / year or something liek that
that's like nothing
i'm not into mobile so idk but I don't really count with having any income in the first place π
read stuffs like this
first project to be profitable is very unlikely
so my strategy was to get the money in order to finish the game and I expect that I have to get a job again once im done
so it's not really business stuff but at least im realistic π
I might try to do own projects mixed with contract works in the future tho, that is the realistic way to maintain a business
ashen lynx
Thing is, there are jobs, that would get you enough money to buy yourself a business in any country of choice faster, than you would get into gamedev, especially if it is game design.
It always looks cute, when it is hobby. Might not look so as a job for everyone. And when putting everything on stake to try, I'd think twice about it.
remote saffron
regarding that, being a programmer is much safer
because you can always leave the industry while keeping your profession
and earn more and have better work conditions π
flat gazelle
@plucky hatch Without a bachelors degree you have two options pretty much. For the H1b visa you can equate 12 years of relevant professional experience to the degree. Then a company can sponsor you to get it. The other is to go for the O2 expert visa. If you can show that you are among the top in your field you can nab that. On the requirement list they suggest international awards like nobel or pulitzer, but you can sometimes get around it by being "known in the industry". I have helped out with one of those by explaining why a guys GDC talks had helped my work and therefore prove that he's an expert.
plucky hatch
Ah yeah I've heard about the awards thing but never knew about the "known in the industry" thing
flat gazelle
A lot more paperwork for that
plucky hatch
That could be helpful if I ever become known and want to move to the US lol
I'm assuming lots of money in lawyer fees too
flat gazelle
Yes. The lawyers will write the letters needed and you have to get people who are also somewhat known to sign that yes, this dude is the shit
The reason I was asked was because of my GDC talk
Otherwise I would have been seen as pointless as well
But if the company is interested enough to pursue an O2 for you, they better pay the lawyer fees π
plucky hatch
So basically, you HAVE to be the shit
flat gazelle
Yes
ashen lynx
Yeah, it is pretty naive to expect, that someone would pay re-location costs for an entry-level position.
flat gazelle
You will be asked to comb the web for any artile, paper and so on you've ever been part of
@ashen lynx It depends. I don't know for engineers these days, but I was relocated to the UK for my first job.
So it does happen, even if it's rare
But then again, It was a EU relocation, so no VISA crap
ashen lynx
I can't speak for IT really. But generally, being a qualified specialist, eliminates visa problems in most countries. I have never handled my visas on my own though.
flat gazelle
Yeah, I'd say that's key. Specialist
Part of the visa process on the company side can be to prove that there's nobody available in country that can do what you can
ashen lynx
yep, most countries have that clause in immigration law
a proof that they can't find a local
It does not help that State's embassies do not comment on visa rejections either.
digital gate
Do you just want Indian devs in that age range, or will any non-US dev who is trying to get into the US do?
kk
lyric marten
What about Android App development. I am currently working on a project made with UE4. But I only have a team of two people. Work to be done is huge. So I am thinking to move to App development. Will that be a right choice?
quaint lodge
umm i was wondering how dp i get started with unreal engine officially and not just follow tutorials without knowing what i'm actually copying
simple crest
How do I recruit people to work on a video game project.
wheat rampart
@quaint lodge Start with a basic empty project and start creating your game piece by piece.
quaint lodge
@wheat rampart i'm already doing that but when it comes to doing the same thing multiple times in different ways i need to know how much of an impact it will do to my performance and what's expensive to use and what's light to use in terms of performance
wheat rampart
What kind of game do you want to make that requires such caution in terms of performance? What platform do you plan to target? The naΓ―ve dev in me says not to worry about it until your own machine starts to bog down. In any case, I think Unreal offers some profiling tools. I'd create a few benchmark scenarios and measure different techniques with their computational cost. No idea how professional studios do performance tweaking with Unreal.
quaint lodge
well that's the thing my machine is really low spec and my target is to start clean and stay clean cuz i'm a lone and can't do a clean up/polishing on my own
so if i create a game that respects low spec i and is optimized as possible i pretty much have consoles guaranteed
wheat rampart
You know the saying: Premature optimization is the root of all evil. However, if you're adamant about keeping code clean, I guess you could do regular code reviews to check that your algorithms are solid and use profiling tools extensively during development to nip any performance issues in the bud. However, worrying about design is already maddening enough without having to worry about performance.
You could even try reading up on legacy console development and be stingy with memory allocation to further that goal.
quaint lodge
i agree and that's why i want to learn unreal very professionally
wheat rampart
π Heh... I don't know how'd you gauge "professional". I get the feeling a lot of people in game dev just stumble their way through, Epic Games being no exception. The most technically savvy of them probably have great intuition on how to create amazing technical demonstrations wrought from study and research into bleeding edge techniques and theories. We're kind of following in the footsteps on giants and trailblazers who really care about graphical fidelity and use of technology to enhance digital performances. Even still at the end of the day, I think they still do performance run through of their code base unless they managed to get them performant, correct, and stable the first time through. I just want to get started on making games and I'll take any stumbling blocks as lessons to apply in the future.
kindred mason
Hmm. Always associated the word "professional" with getting paid
I mean, really that's the only difference between that and a hobbyist
fickle hatch
I think it's being paid + showing a level of skill
drowsy tundra
I think that's why they said "+", not "or"
quaint lodge
the defenision is building up
fickle hatch
I respectfully disagree, being a pro needs some level of basic time management skills for example
It's unprofessional to always blow it with the time frames, even if you are skilled in other regards
kindred mason
But all is debatable
Like what is Indie Studio these days
/shrug you are talking about behaviors
But those behaviors can be found in anyone
Including a hobbyist
Or student
Which is why the only clear cut difference is $
nova locust
i call myself a professional game dev because its entirely what i do for a living
digital gate
I mean...
kindred mason
You can call yourself whatever you want, no one can stop ya Β―_(γ)_/Β―
nova locust
^^^^^^^^^^^^
shadow kelp
professional = making a living out of it, nothing more, nothing less
plucky hatch
you might be a professional anything, (do it as a profession) but that doesn't mean you're a 'pro' π
there's LOTS of professional gamedevs that are literally complete fucking morons that are utterly clueless
and that includes most 'indy devs'
"hurr durr i made a shitty maze game, i'm a professional developer now"
mild parcel
I have a job as a programmer at a game company but from what I've seen there are loads more people out there who are a lot better than I am and I still have tons to improve on
So I'm definitely a "professional" but by no means an expert at all
dense sail
harsh but true
mild parcel
Everyone knows it but you still probably shouldn't say it lol
ocean harbor
I understand that you are asking it as a joke but employers do look for people who really like what they do for a living. As being happy with what you spend most of your working life on, tends to result in good skills and and output that person provides.
Look at people who own businesses or lead, they spend way more than 8 hours a day at work, some because they are workaholics, but others do like what they do.
ocean harbor
yeah I get it π
shut tree
money to buy beer to drink to get drunk
vivid pivot
yeah shorten that to: to get drunk. Insta-hired
plucky hatch
Who here has gotten a job offer in the video game industry?
flat gazelle
@plucky hatch Do you mean gotten a job from this channel, or in general?
ashen lynx
Putting money as motivation in that application field seems totally appropriate, and would never hurt you in any way,but if and only if, the HR depth is led by a sane head and the company in question is not a galley type.
flat gazelle
Well, I've been in the industry for a decade so I've gotten some offers
plucky hatch
I'm a complete noob in terms of professional experience.
I have only worked two "real" jobs.
shut tree
human resources sounds so bad π
plucky hatch
Both were tech support / doing stuff like API and some software development.
However, I've spent the last year working on a game and I published it to steam.
I'm not sure if that would even help me though.
mild spruce
Any ideas where I can go for gamedev Schools
plucky hatch
I don't want to take a "low level" job paying less than what I'm doing now.
@flat gazelle what do you think I should do?
mild spruce
I'm currently doing IGCSE
flat gazelle
Practice. Get good at what you want to do then go for a job doing that
mild spruce
me?
plucky hatch
Yeah but a lot of times, the companies don't even reply.
I send resume, and get no response.
flat gazelle
If your reel/portfolio is good enough they will
mild spruce
dont gamedevs build there portfolios off making games?
plucky hatch
I'm a programmer
So its tough to show much
Unlike an artist, I don't have "artstation" or "behance"
flat gazelle
I can't give you any programmer specifics since I'm artist
plucky hatch
You know what I mean?
flat gazelle
So have you made any games that you show them?
flat gazelle
Is it awesome?
plucky hatch
No. That got deprecated
mild spruce
so u can just bam upload games?
shut tree
u pay 100$ and put it on there]
mild spruce
ah
flat gazelle
Well, the only two tips I can give is to practice your ass off and make sure that you have cool stuff to show, and Network. Building a name for yourself and expanding your network is incredibly important
plucky hatch
Yeah
Most definitely
I also need to learn not to build a "negative" reputation
I'm not the most agreeable person
flat gazelle
Yeah, that'lll kill your career before it gets started. It's a tiny industry and word gets around
plucky hatch
mhm
It's not like I intend
To just piss people off
It just sometimes happens
Not often thankfully
mild spruce
ill try
remote saffron
If your reel/portfolio is good enough they will <- I would rather say if your reel/portfolio is good enough some of them will
plucky hatch
Yeah maybe
I feel like there is a lot of "fake" jobs in this industry
Does anyone else feel this way?
Like a bunch of fake jobs by startup companies with no capital
ashen lynx
startup company without a capital has nothing to do with a job though.
flat gazelle
@remote saffron Sure they will. Once it's good enough companies go after you instead of the other way around
mild spruce
@plucky hatch you mean Doing it for exposure
plucky hatch
Eh
It's not really worth it to spend a year on a product which may never actually go live
In my opinion
I don't know though. @flat gazelle would probably know better than me
remote saffron
@flat gazelle: not on entry level, and you can't expect people to work for about 5 years to make a cool portfolio before applying for first job
plucky hatch
Another thing... Why go into a low level games industry job when you can go work for a big company doing database stuff for like triple the pay
It might not be something you love but
It pays bills
And could let you buy a house
karmic kayak
If money is the main concern, don't work in games.
plucky hatch
Well it's not really about that
It's about enjoyment. But at the same time, if you are working in an industry but not able to pay mortgage it's not really a good long term solution for life
I don't want to be broke by the time I'm 60
And I don't think anyone else does either
shut tree
@plucky hatch its all about youtube these days π
only watched about 2 min of ur stream no idea if ur any good. it was compiling stuff π
plucky hatch
it's very difficult to do anything on stream
like
because it just crashes or something dumb
shut tree
but make some vids on how to make something, do it right, record it again if not, show some fancy viewmodes and do stuff like u know what ur doin
like making a numerpad keycode open a door
plucky hatch
Yeah
shut tree
than do some fancy looking demo, with bullettime and crap like that, easy to set up but many ppl dont know that
make it look fancy with free epic assets
get some1 to help u with the animations if you have to
steel creek
I pretty much ignore demo reels.
if you cant answer questions, looking at your cool demo reel aint gonna get you a job.
both for vfx hires and code hires
remote saffron
...
if you don't get to the point where they ask questions
your answer won't help you out
remote saffron
well you are not the only one
steel creek
I am telling you all, most times demo reels are ignored. same for CVs. They are used as filters to get you in front of someone. Once you are in front of someone, they ask direct questions.
remote saffron
obviously I don't expect anyone to be hired based on CV
but you need the CV to be considered
that's all
steel creek
Indeed. And you do "need" a demo reel
all I am saying is, you need it, you dont need to make it the most amzing thing ever
we are not interested in what you did
we are interested in what you can do
flat gazelle
I am also the one hiring. The reel gets you the interview, after that it's ignored
If your reel isn't good enough I won't waste any time pursuing it further
steel creek
that is what I use interns for: filtering π
flat gazelle
I don't trust interns to judge who's worth flying over here
steel creek
er, I didnt say that
I said filtering
no need to watch 30 demo reels that 25 are shit
pretty sure an intern can bubble up good reels vs bad
if they cant, you already fucked up getting the intern
flat gazelle
Hehe, I'm in game VFX. If I get 30 reels passed on from HR, I'm in heaven.
steel creek
Its worse in engineering π went from film vfx hires to engineering hires.
demo reel? loller
flat gazelle
I don't' expect an intern to be able to judge quality much more than the HR dept
steel creek
get better interns
flat gazelle
Or, rely on the people whose job it is to filter
steel creek
HR? lmfao no
intern at least wants to work my sector
HR just wants to check off a listbox
flat gazelle
Hiring is pretty much the most important thing you could be doing, I rather watch a couple of extra reels myself than rely on someone with very little experience. Again, there aren't many applications in my field
steel creek
you should see how many people want to do VFX in TV/Film
the bin is topped off, all day
flat gazelle
yup, I know
tables are turned in games
Most companies are actively hunting vfx artists down
Good vfx artists that is
steel creek
crazy
flat gazelle
Good for me and my job security π
sinful island
a bit about me before I ask my question. I am 23 with some college, but no degree. I am essentially self taught in UE4, Blueprint, c++, c#, html, css, Blender, and photo editing. I run a small Indie Studio called Life Art Studios by myself. I want to work full time or as much as possible in the game industry, hopefully in VR primarily. Currently I work a low end part time job that uses none of my skills. I look for contracts, but can't seem to find any that aren't rev share and or something I can get hired for. I am always continuing to develop my skillset as well. I am considering going back to college for game development with a minor in art, but that is a lot of money and if possible I'd like to avoid doing that. My question is what is the fastest way to become hirable? I am working on portfolio stuff, but this is going really slow and I'd like to be making the same kind of money I am from my part time job.
so I guess, specifically what should I put in my portfolio?
a longer term question is how do I get my Indie Studio to be my full time job? I am not opposed to doing more than video games, but I am really uncertain of where to obtain sources of money.
please @ me when you reply so I can see the notification
plucky hatch
@sinful island I feel like in the same boat as you (most of the similar conditions), The best way to become 'hire-able' is to ship one game. If you wanna get work in a Mobile Gaming company then mobile (Google Play or Apple App Store), if PC then a PC game. (Itch or Steam).
Better to highlight your strengths. If you are a better and stronger programmer than a 3D artist then put things (projects) you have worked on as a programmer first. You can put other things like 3D assets etc. if you feel they are really good. You can say you know basics of Blender / 3D etc in your resume / cv / cover letter as well.
sinful island
I'm aware of the currently shitty map, theres been no effort put into the map. It was a shit building that came with an asset pack I bough and I've just been using it for testing gameplay and AI and stuff. I make that very clear in my descriptions. End goal is a semi procedurally generated map. The layout of the landscape would be the same but the 4 cities and other assorted location would have it's buildings and layouts mixed around on generation
granite brook
:P Not against you all discussing things here, but please watch your language a bit
sinful island
I don't take offense so I wouldn't worry about it on my part
granite brook
Na, we just don't want strong language here in general. Don't worry :P I just mean that things like "is shit, that is shit, this is shit" can also be worded a bit different. Cause at some point people might feel offended and then hell breaks loose
sinful island
@plucky hatch so let me clarify a bit better, my indie studio would produce it's own games, but is also available for hire to work on other projects. I get the selling my own content part, the getting to work with other people as contract work is the part I'm not really getting
granite brook
But anyway, keep on going. I also think that you get hired if you are good.
I constantly have a full inbox of people wanting me to work for them and I don't have a code portfolio, despite some listings of projects I worked on.
sinful island
@plucky hatch lol I feel you, the truth is in person someone will also tell you that you are shit so I don't like when people sugar coat the internet
no, full procedural is trash
procedural is an art of it's own
that's because the scope is too big
granite brook
Doesn't really matter if you like sugar coating or not. :P rules are rules. You'd draw the shorter stick in this
sinful island
not even that
granite brook
:P You were also not holding back on baiting one
sinful island
I have 4 "cities" and each city has a set of buildings and locations that are set up on tilemaps. I can easily shift around the location of buildings and change up the gameplay each time the game loads up because it fits with the theme of choas
granite brook
Welp, You gotta live with that though :P
sinful island
and even more so I can shift around on what part of the map each city spawns in.
you're thinking about too big a scope again
it's sort of like a dungeon because each building is part of a larger puzzle in a sense
so the buildings randomize because you are looking for objects that spawn in them but each building has set costs for doors and items within them and certain things require you to turn on the electricity or some other thing
the puzzle is sort of prioritizing your points that you spend
lol
hold up i have a really early vid
this was the shitty first version of this
but I'll be including actually city stuff not just a town
I'm not aiming for 7 days to die
or whatever that trash was
I do have guides
believe it or not this actually has a story
think of each city like a dungeon from zelda
very vaguely
and you can go to each location in PRETTY MUCH BUT NOT EXACTLY any order
The larger map this is all contained in is the same
you know a city will always be in this location but the layout may vary
certain landmarks will stay the same
paths to get between the landmarks will be the same
it's like
a more complicated version of the mystery box spawning to the left door or the right door
making ai that works dynamically in this world should probably get me there
first word
yes, because I bought these from an asset pack
the whole art is getting redone
strong burrow
thats true
sinful island
the only reason I bought the asset pack in the first place is so I had stuff to test with and because I wanted a unified art style while the game was in early access
because presentation matters
it's already sold so
and I did no advertising
haha
but none of my friends or family have bought this
while valid I'm still not seeing any points you made as valid application to this
I get a shit ton more interest in my other project that was also made from an asset pack and has freaking no gameplay
also yes because it is vr, non vr, and if performance holds up, mobile
in vr easily 120 fps
out of vr 500 fps
i think it's good and I never wanted to make it so bam
*riggedy
I do have a reason for the art style too...
it's more personal than anything, but it is a reason
karmic kayak
you guys might wanna take this to #lounge as this channel is #career-chat
sinful island
am I? because you were talking about gameplay and then shifted to the look
is your point make a product not passion project
plucky hatch
@sinful island What kind of contracts are you looking for?
sinful island
literally anything I can handle at this point. I'm not special so just anyone who'd be willing to throw some stuff my way while I get better. I'm not looking to make tons of cash from the get go, just to get my foot in the door somewhere and start making a name for myself
plucky hatch
You'll need to pick something to specialize in. Generalists aren't usually something people hire
sinful island
and if that can't happen yet then someone who will point out what it is I need to do to show I can do stuff
like what do I put in a portfolio
karmic kayak
do you have an folio with recent stuff to look at?
sinful island
specifically? landscapes and AI and then interesting stuff here and there. I like figuring out interesting methods of locomotion in vr and stuff like that
as an indie for hire
karmic kayak
those are two very different disciplines tbh
sinful island
I don't give two shits about AAA
a contractor is a thing
and I can have multiple disciplines
and multiple portfolios and multiple resumes
if I'm a generalist yes
karmic kayak
people (companys) are usually interested in specialists / experts tho tbh
sinful island
i'm aware
plucky hatch
It's OK to be good at everything. You just need to be really good at one thing
sinful island
which is why I want to be good at ai and programming
plucky hatch
nah brah im good at everything
sinful island
and then pursue art in my free time
lilac walrus
'Jack of all trades, master of none'
plucky hatch
Yes OK that's your start. Work on becoming an AI programmer
lilac walrus
it takes a considerable amount of effort to become good at something
sinful island
doing that literally right now, working on the ai for my open world
lilac walrus
you'll never find the time to do more than one
it's generally assumed that it takes around ten years to master any skill
sinful island
thats why end of days currently looks like shit but has interesting code going on and Duality looks a lot nicer and has no code going on
lilac walrus
also there are artists who are good with code and vice versa
I mean that's a discipline in itself (technical artists)
sinful island
Specifically I'd not really looking to get hired for art I might just fall into that role some day
yes that
I was talking to one of the job simulator devs about that the other day
lilac walrus
tech art is a discipline in itself, which includes juniors
some people now graduate degrees specifically focusing on tech art positions of various types
sinful island
let's put it this way, I know about 10 guys who all have an associates in game development and I have way more experience then them.
lilac walrus
given how good they are, I think not
an associates degree is an American concept and it's pretty useless tbh
and there are some solid game degree courses out there
sinful island
I dropped out of that school to open my studio and teach myself because I was displeased with the system
lilac walrus
I've dropped in to University of Hertfordshire a few times as an example and their art course is pretty solid
sinful island
i can tell you not one of them knows how to integrate steam api, not one of them can work in Unreal because they are so hard grain in unity, etc.
my personal projects can be what they are. I'm not asking you how to reshape them. I'm asking what would want to be seen and then I can go make that thing or go obtain that knowledge
plucky hatch
Working in Unreal isn't really better over working in Unity
sinful island
ugh yes i know the point was more they can't dive into multiple environments
plucky hatch
Anyway, since you said you want to do AI programming, look at papers and GDC talks on AI and then try to implement them
And develop your own solutions and systems
strong burrow
Honestly the whole Generalist thing depends on where you live...
sinful island
i live in an area where the game scene is just starting to build up
we have like no indies here either
i think your disposition is being directed in the wrong place dude
I know all the these things
I want to skip past the beginner talk here
you are demonstrating quite a bit of impatience and only looking at the surface of things really
which yes others will do as well
but here i need a different kind of conversation
let's put it this way
a LOT of people look for networking help
that sounds like a great place to make money
less people are looking for complicated AI from what I can see
plucky hatch
Well do you want to do networking?
sinful island
I'm going to need to do it anyway for my own projects so it's not a matter of wanting to do it or not
I'm going to get all these skills one way or another
which one I tackle first depends on which one makes me money faster
I spend all of my time in game dev and research
I do nothing else
I WANT A STABLE INCOME YOU DINGUS
NOT LOTS OF MONEY
dude you are literally no help
code can code in other fields
me speak simple for you
plucky hatch
Selling games is unreliable. Working on games is just like other jobs
strong burrow
Its high risk.
sinful island
exactly so the thing that gets me money needs to be the first thing I do so I can keep doing this
strong burrow
Very high.
sinful island
like idk I work in vr maybe architectural visualization is the route to go down
plucky hatch
Specialize in networking. Make money off networking jobs. Do side projects
sinful island
I'm looking for a thing that I can use in other places
like that is the useful info I wanted and it only took this long
plucky hatch
There's a lot of VR jobs these days so VR can be decent
sinful island
no these are all questions I have that no one seems to be willing to answer because they just want to shit post the noobs
well VR is my passion so thats good
plucky hatch
And more non gaming companies are stepping into VR so it's probably only going to grow from here
sinful island
whos we dude youre the only one being a dick
plucky hatch
That said, you'll still need to specialize for VR projects
sinful island
how about AR? good field too?
plucky hatch
AR is probably going to grow but it's pretty small atm
sinful island
optimizing vr networking would be cool
AR will be big in industrial and other labor jobs
for example construction helmets showing floor plans while you work
I like hardware too, but that would really require some school to get me back in shape for that
I'd like to do something with wearables and haptic feedback but I'd need some stuff for that
dude if I don't have it I will obtain it
thats what I'm trying to find is what should I be pointing the gun at before I fire it
lilac walrus
'optimising VR networking' - whut?
plucky hatch
Calm down brother
lilac walrus
game networking is game networking, there's very little that's VR specific that would ever need to be done
sinful island
@plucky hatch I'm very unsatisfied with your attitude dude
sinful island
I'm trying to sift through all the stuff swimming around in my noggin and coming here was supposed to help me get that done not get yelled at
I'm trying to find the path to not being useless. I can't just pick a thing and do it. I need to pick a thing that will be useful
lilac walrus
I don't really see the point of shouting someone down for an hour and telling them they're useless when they're asking for advice on how to not be useless
Β―_(γ)_/Β―
strong burrow
I have a friend who worked in VR
plucky hatch
Alright man you gotta tone it down. No need to shit on the guy every single time
sinful island
no i don't, I'm ok being told I can't make quality stuff yet. Then tell me what is bad about it from a NON OPPINION stand point and then I will go learn what to do about it
I don't look at other indies. I don't even compare myself to game devs. I compare myself to people I have worked with at companies like iRobot, Deka, L3 Insight technologies, APPLE, etc.
I've been other places, what do you think I was doing up until now
oh that's right you didn't ask?
because your goal wasn't to be helpful but berate a new guy and try and scare him away from the industry?
how is that helpful
like damn how hard is it to for me to go I like art and go well theres a high demand for VFX artists
lapis geode
HEY FOLKS
sinful island
yeah, but that is unrelated to this
lapis geode
Sorry my 10min probation thing finally finished
I used to work at a VR company and currently work full time at an indie game company
Whatβs up
sinful island
well I live in new england and theres like none of that here so the market is pretty ripe for me to start something
lapis geode
Artist btw, so idk much about programming but I know a lot about being a generalist
Right I see I see
Well if there isnβt much of a market then I suspect the indie industry is where youβll be headed unless you move country
sinful island
I worked at mindtrek as well which is a partner of zero latency
sinful island
exactly
thats what I'm told by indies
i live near the biggest indie body in our area which is not saying much
lapis geode
There are barely any specialist roles; companies canβt afford to have so many people filling their own small roles
Programmers are generalists, artists are generalists
sinful island
dave carrigg, a dev of job simulator, owns the co-op area most of them work at
lapis geode
Oohhh thatβs pretty cool
sinful island
and for my own company being a generalist is good so I can communicate with my other team members and contractors
lapis geode
Speaking of which the VR industry is growing slowly but definitely growing
sinful island
yes, it is up to indies to really push the sales that will drive more attention to it
lapis geode
Yeah if you want to start your own company, 100% try your best to be a generalist and know all fields to an extent
karmic kayak
Indie Industry? They have their own now? π
lapis geode
Because thereβs nothing worse than a boss who doesnβt know anything about what youβre doing
lapis geode
Itβs an area of the game industry ofc
Working in indie games and AAA are totally different
lapis geode
So yes we can seperate them and say theyβre basically two different fronts
lapis geode
Lmao did you honestly just suggest indie is incompetence?
lapis geode
Thatβs because nothing stops people from releasing indie games
Iβd like to add that many recent AAA games have been absolute floos
Flops*
sinful island
I have so much hate for the state of the game industry right now I can't stomach the idea of working in AAA
lapis geode
And indie games ARE on the rise
karmic kayak
the issue is a lot of hobbyists call them self "indie" thats why "indie" has a bad rep nowadays.
sinful island
sure, but I want to stand out from the trash
strong burrow
I don't think closing yourself off towards an industry is really the right choice, imo.
plucky hatch
Everybody wants to stand out from the trash
lapis geode
Yeah Iβm talking about working in the industry at an indie company mostly
Donβt discourage people from this industry
Thatβs what will kill it
sinful island
yes, but lets get down to how to actually do that
not being trash is the first thing obviously
lapis geode
And if you kill indie games then youβre left with just AAA games with no room for innovation
plucky hatch
Are you talking about making a game that stands out?
sinful island
yes dude thats litterally the equation for life too, but look how many people are failing at it
not one game
a brand name that is respected and liked
karmic kayak
What matters most is Skill (mostly in ONE field of expertise) also not being an dick helps a lot
sinful island
good thing I'm not lazy
strong burrow
Thats mostly a closed-minded opinion.
plucky hatch
Simple: make games that are popular and not trash
lapis geode
@karmic kayak Do you mean ART and PROGRAMMING as seperate fields of expertise or are you referring to specialised roles (i.e Texture Artist/Tech Artist/etc)?
sinful island
bro when I was working for apple I work 96 hours a week and still found time to study and code and design
I am not lazy
strong burrow
Where's this study if you don't mind me asking?
sinful island
@plucky hatch is absolutely right on that front
plucky hatch
I love it
lapis geode
In realty if you donβt do the work in a company, you get fired
karmic kayak
@lapis geode yeah. I mean specialised jobs.
sinful island
I will be in the 20%
lapis geode
No company has time and money to keep people on who arenβt doing their share
sinful island
@lapis geode ugh you'd be surprised
lapis geode
@karmic kayak In AAA maybe but itβs always recommended to start from being a generalist
sinful island
my life experience so far tells me that @plucky hatch is correct about industry
but that's not really the point of my question
I want to find a way to carve my own path in the world with this
lapis geode
Youβre generalising pareto distribution as if it exists in every single company
sinful island
I'm ok living alone forever in a space just big enough to do vr
I just want this to be what I do
lapis geode
@sinful island Then go for it man
lapis geode
Just rustles my jimmies when people talk down and discourage people from wanting to make independent games
sinful island
same
lapis geode
As if people just jump from university into AAA
remote saffron
1.) it's not only indie vs aaa and btw yes you can do that jump
2.) if you are discouraged that easily it's better that you give up now
because you simply lack the motivation
plucky hatch
This is going to be you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-GVd_HLlps π
sinful island
if anything I'd get networking with people who will be in industry and probably unemployed or bored with their jobs at some point who want to work on a new project
remote saffron
having a degree
will HURT your hiring chances
bs
lapis geode
@remote saffron Lmao maybe in extremely rare cases
remote saffron
even "best" case it simply won't matter
lapis geode
You need industry experience to work in AAA
strong burrow
There's a lot of mixed ideas here.
remote saffron
work experience is something you have after university if you take your life seriously
lapis geode
Do you own a company?
sinful island
college is pretty useless unless the individual had life kick their ass already
yes
officially too, with it's own bank account and stuff
I also have an accountant on board
strong burrow
Thats a strange way to be thinking.
lapis geode
Thanks for generalising all college graduates where a lot of them work their asses off to get where they are
remote saffron
wait we call that a degree too? :D
i was thinking about more of a computer science degree π
lapis geode
@sinful island Was referring to Dunkle :)
strong burrow
What about if someone does excellent looking work but has that degree also?
remote saffron
actually I feel bad about game degrees as well but would check the individual anyway to see if he/she is cool or not
sinful island
@plucky hatch is right but idk know if i like his exact reasoning
strong burrow
You're gonna discriminate because of that degree?
lapis geode
That reasoning is terrible
sinful island
self taught is better for hiring, but there's the issue of them not necessarily having learned to do things the right way either
lapis geode
95% it isnβt the case whether they have a degree or not
sinful island
If i went back to school it's not for the degree it's for specific classes
lapis geode
@sinful island Good mindset
sinful island
well I don't need all of the classes, just the ones the help me do something to get a job
lapis geode
Tbf I donβt totally understand how your colleges/degrees work
sinful island
yeah I hate the ask professor thing because it doesn't work anyway
in america? lol pretty much all are garbage
lapis geode
I went to a very specialised private college which was 100% practical work which relied on a lot of self teaching
So idk what itβs like over there
sinful island
i figured, @plucky hatch you are vehement about colleges
strong burrow
I'm just criticizing the strange logic you have there. I have no idea what its like in America.
sinful island
also I figured my back up to my back up was to teach at a university as well
I know several devs who do
lapis geode
Itβs very strange logic to not hire people because they have a degree indeed
strong burrow
Well Europe then
sinful island
exactly, but that is absolute fall back plan
I know a college that will hire me for sure if I just get a few games completed
lapis geode
I also know plenty of people who just prefer teaching over an industry job
Itβs totally dependent on the individual
Not everyone enjoys working in a studio
sinful island
plus my idea is I can pass the torch to students in a way that they understand how the world works
i don't mind the idea of teaching either, I was thinking of setting up a udemy or plural sight or something since I already live stream
or like a patreon for game game teaching
NOT YET
yet being the keyword
so lets find something useful for me to point my learning gun at mmk?
cuz thats the point
AI is what I'm doing currently, but as much as I like it IDK if thats the best thing to work at rn.
lapis geode
Do you prefer art or programming?
sinful island
hence why I'm here talking to people who should be telling me what would be best to look into
lapis geode
Well what do you know already? At this current point?
strong burrow
Yeah the conversation went completely in another direction.
sinful island
@lapis geode complex question, because I'm a generalist. I know my way around UE4 and what all the systems are and why they work, but haven't used all of them yet. I know my way around blender and what everything is, same with general photo editing
lapis geode
What exactly do you mean by βknow your way aroundβ?
sinful island
I also know c#, C++, web languages, etc.
lapis geode
Do you mean you can confidently set up materials, lighting, plug in animations, etc? Or just know where the tools are?
sinful island
both
lapis geode
And same with Blender, do you know how to hard surface model, retopo, UV, etc? Or just know your way around?
sinful island
also math
blender is more along the lines of I can make something for the sake of filling a purpose
lapis geode
Right okay
sinful island
but would like to get better at some point
lapis geode
So you must more be leaning toward the programming side atm then?
lapis geode
I guess but as others said I wouldnβt be doing which one receives the most income haha
Look into technical artist roles I reckon, thereβs been a huge increase in jobs for that field and even if youβre starting youβre own company, itβd be very useful
sinful island
plus I'm more interested in what makes things work and breaking them
lapis geode
Bridges the gap between programming and art
sinful island
interesting, i will look into that
lapis geode
Maybe look into creating a game, just a small, game, from start to finish
One thatβs functional, that youβve ironed out the bugs
sinful island
I have three games officially in development and several more in notebooks
lapis geode
Gotcha, but Iβd focus on completing just one of them first
sinful island
others are more just proof of concept for my own curiosity
lapis geode
Will give you a better idea on scope for the others
And knowing what you can and canβt do
sinful island
End of Days is the one that I'm doing most at the moment
I did it to teach myself what I don't know
sinful island
VR (and soon to be non vr cross play) open world zombie survival
not exactly @plucky hatch
acoustic arch
I've never read something that was more true than what you just said @plucky hatch . It's hard, but it's the truth.
sinful island
the other projects came about for particular learning reasons
and then I went back to main projects to apply what I learned
lapis geode
Well if itβs open world, and in VR, then Iβd focus on learning how to set up locomotion and navigation in VR
sinful island
for example End of Days looked way worse before, then I did duality as a lighting and atmosphere study, then went back and redid that stuff in EoD
lapis geode
Thatβd be one of the core components you need to nail down first
sinful island
already done with that
lapis geode
Oh
sinful island
working on a dynamic AI for the world right now
lapis geode
How you handling locomotion? Just through teleporting or?
sinful island
as well a city generation system that suits my needs
depends, there are 4 options in my menu
but basically they all derive from teleporting
lapis geode
Yeeesh procedural generation is quite an undertaking
@plucky hatch Yes well I donβt expect him to be an expert in art?
sinful island
not really, I am breaking apart Dungeon Architect for my needs
sinful island
exactly, thats why I have a different map planned out for official release
lapis geode
Why does the presentation matter
sinful island
and also I'm saving money to hire artists
lapis geode
Heβs still working on the gameβs core features
strong burrow
Should just say WIP
sinful island
I work my ass off and then come home and work on game dev till the wee hours of the morn
lapis geode
Why would he focus on polishing art
sinful island
it is a wip
lapis geode
Exactly
lapis geode
Yeesh Iβd avoid going into early access without visual polish though haha
acoustic arch
popcorn initiates
lapis geode
Lmao Strek
sinful island
ok lets be real here
strong burrow
Yeah Early Access is a tall order right now.
lapis geode
@sinful island Do you know how much itβll cost to hire artists?
lapis geode
You could just purchase assets for contract an artist rather than full on hire one
Or contract*
sinful island
steam is full of shit. I need a place to gather attention for the game and build a community for my studio. I want people to provide feed back and bug test. I want to get community feedback as I develop to shape the game some more from my own personal interest project. I am one man I need input like this
also yes
and these assets are from a pack
I like low poly as it reminds me of my days on the n64
and the idea is
lapis geode
If youβre trying to build a community snd gather attention then yes I will agree that presentation does matter
strong burrow
Honestly just because its full of crap doesn't mean you should do that.
sinful island
if those games were fun then why does the visuals matter so much
lapis geode
@plucky hatch Sorry I didnβt understand the context of all this lmao
plucky hatch
People didn't know any better for video game graphics back in the day
sinful island
and I'm not pumping crap into steam
plucky hatch
Ocarina of Time looks like shit and plays like shit these days but was considered a masterpiece back then
sinful island
because I don't advertise. It's jsut easy to provide keys and stuff and get streamers on board and thing of that nature
acoustic arch
If you need people to see your general idea and show a small presentation i'd make sure that what you show does look good, even if it's just a working concept, it doesn't need to be very costfull getting some assets just for that.
sinful island
glad you said that, that's one of my favorite games
lapis geode
Donβt spend money on artists if you donβt know that youβll get a return
plucky hatch
Visuals WILL get you a long way so you should do something about it
sinful island
I look heavily into Nintendo design philosophy
yeah and visuals can also be the bottle neck for the whole code so
lapis geode
They can still look pretty though π
sinful island
I'm gunna get shit working and then make it pretty
plucky hatch
You'll also notice that Nintendo games these days look fantastic AND play well
lapis geode
Yeah exactly, just donβt expect a huge following or community until there is something there that is presentable and enticing
acoustic arch
I'm the complete opposite of this situation...artist..yes..programmer...can't make one line of code work
strong burrow
Same man
sinful island
thats really what duality is. I got so much attention from that and it's just a 3rd person template I did level design in
plucky hatch
Duality is the type of project to get you a following because of its visuals
sinful island
and thats what the goal was
plucky hatch
You will most likely not get a following from just mechanics and game design
sinful island
duality was an art focused project
end of days is a gameplay and code focused project
you say that but VR adds an interesting element to that equation
since of course VR is barren as fuck right now
plucky hatch
VR is novel atm that's why
sinful island
because of the cost and the lack of online player base
step in end of days where its both vr and non vr players
who fill different roles
and then I make the non vr free
lapis geode
That sounds so inverse of what you should do in the scenario haha
sinful island
oh look a reason for vr people to buy this because what it's only $15?
well i want to be KNOWN for VR
lapis geode
Thatβs just exploiting the VR players
If anything THEY should be getting it cheaper than non VR
They already had to pay for the equipment to play the game in VR
sinful island
i could also make non vr like $5 and say if you buy the vr version you get 3 free copies of non vr for your pleb friends to play with you
lapis geode
Weird monetisation strategy but I wouldnβt even be thinking about monetisation yet haha
sinful island
dude thats one of the first things to consider
acoustic arch
If you are in it for the money, asset flip some shit assets up on greenlight. Kappa.
lapis geode
Lollll
sinful island
greenlight is gone
lapis geode
PUBG did it and they made big bucks
sinful island
its only early access now
lapis geode
But not through greenlight tbf
sinful island
heres the other thing
I'm totally prepared for end of days to be a massive failure
whats important is I shot high enough to get my skills up but in reach enough that I could actually do it
and I can do it
I can do anything I keep putting effort into
lapis geode
Right on, just set milestones and hit them
sinful island
End of Days is a good project because it touches base on essentially all the systems I should know as a generalist and lets me find out what I like the best in order to specialize
I had know idea I loved AI this much until I got into it
would have never guessed
I might love the shit out of networking once i get there who knows
lapis geode
Thatβs good π
sinful island
hell I could make a business out of getting paid to fix indie projects or be a consultant
it's all possible
thats the other thing, I'm good at fixing stuff
less good at making things from scratch but I'm getting there
anyway lets get back on track
code is the direction
what sounds like a good thing to specialize in specifically to look good on a resume to get contracts
and hopefully often enough to do that as my part time job while I work on my own projects
because it isn't impossible to make money from games. I didn't have to do much work to get my first steam sales and that was enough to buy hardware I needed so. There is a way to do this
and I can only get better
strong burrow
I remember listening to a local indie dev talk about his experiences in indie development. He said if you put 50 grand "sweat equity" into your game, its probably going to get you 2 or 3 grand in return. Not sure if this applies here...
sinful island
^^^
strong burrow
And quite literally he did show us the evidence.
I live close by to a Indie community
sinful island
i kind of figure at some point I will run out of full game ideas so as long as I can be useful to making other people's ideas come to life and determining which of those are bad ideas
strong burrow
Lmao
sinful island
well kind of XD
at least around here its indies can't afford all the equiptment so they go to a location that has it all to work and discuss ideas and ask for help and stuff. go to certain bars to have indie events and things like that
strong burrow
Nah these people actually have money... they just choose to have "enough" money.
sinful island
like not everyone has enough money to afford a server or studio microphones with a sounds proof area to record or a motion capture area or whatever
sinful island
i choose enough money as well. I kind of hate the idea of the current monetary system so like I only need enough to do what I want and a bit of security
lapis geode
Can I see stats to back that up?
Are you talking about actual studios or just lone devs?
sinful island
a laptop is not enough to make everything you want if you want to be more than a side scroller
lapis geode
@plucky hatch Possibly because they're trying to minimise costs?
sinful island
and I don't mean necessarily companies, the indie scene is broad in the sense of who people are. Could be kids trying to learn shit or colleges just starting the programs that don't have the funding or whatever
that too
lapis geode
Because that's what people do, you don't need to have everything yourself if you can get access to what you need, for cheaper than buying it outright
strong burrow
I've met these people in person, I know exactly what they're like.
lapis geode
@sinful island Was referring to Dunkle's comment on how he thinks indies are poor
NightDrake is referring to people working in studios/companies
sinful island
@plucky hatch is a curious person to me. I'm not quite sure what to make of him
i feel there is a lot of useful information buried under a bad temperament
lilac walrus
it's important to understand the distinction between indie and hobbyist
sinful island
^^^
lilac walrus
indie studios are legit businesses not attached to a publisher
sinful island
why I hate the work indie really
lilac walrus
it's been misappropriated
sinful island
yep, I hear indie and think 2d platformers and it bothers me
because i'm an indie
and I'm not associated to another copy paste project
lapis geode
Agreed amber
sinful island
except, well.... i do have ANOTHER zombie game
strong burrow
Small studios
sinful island
as far as the garbage on steam
strong burrow
In a co-office working space
sinful island
^^^
strong burrow
Because our rent is terrible
sinful island
ideally thats what I would like. A small group of people working in an office space of our design doing things we enjoy
lapis geode
@strong burrow It's actually really cheap where you are but that co-office working space you guys have is way more convenient
sinful island
i actually get excited thinking about finding a few dudes to rent an apartment with and just make games in our free time
would love to find some others as passionate about it as myself
cuz all i do is watch anime and work on video games
and work my ass off at my other jobs
i was working two jobs and doing indie dev at one point recently just so I could pay a composer
lilac walrus
when I had a studio we had a co-office space inside a bank
it was alright since we could set up permanent equipment there
but I don't think it would work in a normal space
since VR kit is kinda space hungry
sinful island
currently renting out my parents basement which i have to say works super well for just myself. But I also have my vr set up in a way that it's portable.
I traveled the country for a year doing VR development in a new hotel room every week or two when I was working for apple maps
laptop is powerful enough to do VR development and I have my almost as powerful desk top and then linked them together with swarm for unreal lightmass
lapis geode
@lilac walrus Woah that's pretty cool haha
sinful island
using a kinect for motion capture and then cleaning it up in blender
also I agree about the bank set up
space is sort of affordable here near the indie scene
lilac walrus
I don't know if there are any picture of it, heh
sinful island
3 bedroom is 1200 a month
lilac walrus
we were in Manchester city center, so normal office space was well outside of our budget
the bank space was free
lapis geode
Free rent! That's excellent
sinful island
oh sick
you guys ever seen shipping container homes?
You can buy a shipping container for like $1000 and they're huge. was considering finding cheap land and splicing a few of those together to make a small studio space
it's honestly a really viable option
i know of a place near by that set up these in the parking lot of a movie theater because they were never filling up all the spaces. so now they pay cheap rent on that space
lapis geode
Jesus you're pessimistic lmao
strong burrow
Eh
remote saffron
sounds like you like to force your own desires to other people and judge them based on that
strong burrow
Sounds like it
lilac walrus
Do you actually have something valid to contribute?
lapis geode
I'd totally work in that
strong burrow
I don't think he even was talking about living in it
sinful island
office space was the idea though, not the home part
sinful island
that yes
ashen lynx
If you have a land, to place that shipping container on, building a semi-decent structure will be on comparable budget to buying container and shipping that container.
The costs of air conditioning and maintaining container in a proper living conditions are insane in hot and moist climate
sinful island
i live in new hampshire, weather shifts on the dime
ashen lynx
Yeah, with that temps, you'd need more or less of a foundation for any structure, so container is actually a good call. Just don't get used ones.
sinful island
new is about the same price so wouldn't want used anyway
indigo hill
Hey so career advice question.
I'm an animator with a background in 2d who wants to break into gamedev animation
I have training in maya character animation and professional background on 2d shows
I'm self-teaching unreal engine and creating 3d portfolio work for now but
what kinds of jobs should I be looking into that would help me make the transition
Most 3d gamedev jobs require X years experience on gamedev - entry level positions are hard to come by
my ideal job would be one where i get thrown in the deep end and can learn on the job tho
well yeah
ashen lynx
Find an company, of comparable standards, that you want to work for. Find portfolios of several their animators. Polish your work until you can reliably sustain that level at decent speeds. Apply. Profit. @indigo hill
indigo hill
cool beans deathrey
yeah
that's the catch-22 there lol
i mean the last time i did that was straight out of college
yeah i get what you mean
indeed - so i guess what i should be doing is focus in on the job i want and then ask around for tips on what to study and how to polish work
i did however see a couple interesting job postings that were looking for people willing to learn tho
i've been self-teaching but i want to put the things i learned to professional practice
i think i need to crank out work on my own a bit first more tho
Wouldn't mind being on a modding team for experience tbh
sounds fun way to get experience
in my case i should be concentrating on making darn good 3d reel animation
yeah
i am considering also budgeting for animschool
have you seen their student reel
no i mean the online school called animschool
yeah - and i have animator friends who can advise me on polish
in any case the animschool reel itself is pretty inspiring
ashen lynx
In this field, only best educational establishments can be considered. Rest of the schools are indeed a waste.
indigo hill
yeah
i should definitely save my money but it is tempting seeing some of the cool student work
like so
they also have game animation course reels
yeah the one i linked was theatrical style animation
they have a game reel too
there's a better reel of more recent stuff somewhere
oops this is the wrong place i wanted to post
they are still all right
but the one i was more interested in was ianimate i think
no but i like looking at their reels for inspiration
ah here we go
this is pretty rad
whoops wrong link
it's just an individual student's reel
here's what i was looking for:
yeah no, student work not as benchmark but rather the subject matter they're using gives me some context for what to plan for my reel content
combat actions, cinematic sequences, etc
their vimeo has a lot of breakdowns of course work like their body mechanics course for games
gives me a lot of ideas for reel exercises to give myself
even when they move away from the more 'toony' animation they're still gonna be using the same principles
for student work they also probably want to make sure everything reads as clearly as possible
mod a darkest dungeon character if i want to try 2d haha
there's guides on that i was looking into
I think I know what i need to do now a bit better tho
yeh
i should firstly be focusing on making the animation as good as i can make it
yeah was going to say that next
it should be designed around how well it works ingame
game animation tends to be created very quickly and doesn't get the high level of polish as much as you see in theatrical or tv animation
because they need a lot of actions and they need to be developed and implemented rapidly
i'm aware of that from homework i've done on all this and talking to game animators
that doesn't mean create sloppy work, rather that's how the workflow goes
i find it interesting - i would love to get really efficient like that
Hmm I am gonna see if I can dig up some helpful stuff on game animator workflow
mild spruce
those animations look good
lapis geode
@indigo hill iAnimate/AnimSchool etc are actually usually for people who already work in the industry or have those skills/experience and just want to further refine their animation skills
Not sure what your skill level is but it's not really for beginners and whatnot
Sorry just read the above - I see you've learned character anim in Maya. AnimSchool/iAnimate are still quite high intensity courses that you do have to get accepted into I believe, based on your current skills. But yeah it's mostly for people already in the industry wanting to climb up :)