virtual-reality

[jaunty shell]

good mornin' !

[carmine gulch]

mornin'

[dusky moon]

Guys, I got an Issue with Forward Shading, I have parallel transluscent grid planes, but in Forward I can only see the front facing plane , and not the other ones behind ...

is it something that forward doesnt support yet ?

also it's weird that from some angles in the editor and ingame the material gets culled !

[wicked oak]

huge proportion of vives on viveport?

if it was about oculus on oculus store i could understand

but a vive user that doesnt use steam is extremelly rare

viveport is rubbish

[jaunty shell]

@wicked oak ain't viveport primarily for the chinese market ?

[wicked oak]

true

but i have a considerable amount of sales from china

it goes like America, then west europe, then asia. Asia being 80% china

[jaunty shell]

on steam ?

[wicked oak]

yes

[pearl tangle]

Viveport is huge here still. Should throw your stuff up on there with a proper translation and see how it performs

They can't do multiplayer stuff on steam in China because you have to go through a VPN to use it

You will find a pretty high percentage of vive users don't use steam because something like 50% of vive sales are in China

Also with the advertising stuff in viveport now and the arcade subscription stuff it's an interesting revenue stream potentially

More ongoing revenue then you will get by just releasing on steam

[tawdry dragon]

@mighty carbon quick question. Have you ever used anything but the Android SDK adb tool to get device IDs for OSIG generation?

We've had sucess using an app called Device ID on the phone it self, but we just recieved a new batch of Galaxy S7 phones where that ID doesnt match up anymore

fun thing is... we already have an Galaxy S7 where the app provides us with the right id

[mighty carbon]

That's all I used.

[tawdry dragon]

Its a bit worrysome, because we often dont have access to the phones them self... and getting a client to install an android SDK and use command prompts are not... optimal

[mighty carbon]

@pearl tangle maybe in Asia people buy Vive more than Rift.

[wicked oak]

and htc gets a 40% cut

and the taxes on top of that

im not sure at all about the subscription

[mighty carbon]

@tawdry dragon that's why you submit to Oculus and give your client keys

[pearl tangle]

Yep that's a huge problem @tawdry dragon that's why I try and do daydream now instead of gear VR. Much easier to push out to devices

[wicked oak]

im not sure its worth for me to deal with a 4th store + chinese localization

[tawdry dragon]

@mighty carbon I had a go at doing that with UE4(the app we are working on right now is in unity by a third party dev) and never got it working. It couldnt pass the checks

[pearl tangle]

@mighty carbon it definitely outsells it by a mile in Asia but it's also outselling it in most other parts of the world too.

[tawdry dragon]

when uploading to the oculus website

[pearl tangle]

@vblanco if you still get 50% of the sale and make more sales it's worth a test anyway. Although you could always try and just release in English without localization and then you aren't really spending any more time on it

Although for your new game the networking stuff would need to be done differently I suppose since you are using steam for that

[tawdry dragon]

Hmm, anyone have a link/guide to setting up UE4 for Oculus Store(GearVR) submission?

[pearl tangle]

There are some impressive games for vive coming out from China actually. Quite a few nice demos setup here

[tawdry dragon]

Like how to setup the manifest file to avoid these errors:

[mighty carbon]

@pearl tangle I checked Steam last night and didn't see anything (free) I wanted to try with Rift

[pearl tangle]

The lab should work on touch I think? Not much good stuff around for free because people want to eat and whatnot

Mostly just marketing stuff

[mighty carbon]

Also, it seems like we are in the different social layers, as no one from who I talked to would go for Vive because of the steeper price and higher end PC rig required.

The social group I am from seems to think $100 difference on HMD is a lot

And I am considerwd working class+ in the States

[jaunty shell]

$100 is a lot of money, but not so much when we are talking High Tech devices (ie see smartphone prices)

[mighty carbon]

(Closer to middle class)

[pearl tangle]

Yeah there are lots of different socioeconomic layers to society. I'm sure most of those people you asked about it weren't the first people to go out and buy a plasma TV either

[mighty carbon]

Lol, $100 is $100. Somehow same people don't mind upgrading to Galaxy S8, but $100 extra for VR HMD is something that makes them wonder.

[pearl tangle]

Once you get past the early adopter stage of technology then people will be looking more at the price rather than capabilities. It's still mostly in the realm of capabilities at the moment though and that's why people prefer vive

[mighty carbon]

Also, drilling walls and making room for room scale isn't something a lot of people willing to do.

I don't see what Vive can offer what Rift can.

Forget geeks and high tech fans. I am talking about average Joe.

(Who won't buy pucks or cares less about size of room scale)

[wicked oak]

oculus rift is 600 dolalrs with hand controllers

plus a +700-1000 dollars gaming PC wich is NOT easy to get

it really isnt

for the normal people

not enthusiasts

[jaunty shell]

@mighty carbon Decent available VR space was a criteria when I chose my future home /shrug

[wicked oak]

it needs to be sub 400 dollars and standalone to get mainstream

a rift that is 400 dollars, standalone, and it "Just Works(tm)" will sell like candy

becouse you only need to pick the box, unbox it, and put it in your head

why do you think PSVR still sells well

its a objetively inferior hardware

and PSVR with camera and stuff is 500 dollars

[jaunty shell]

Because PS4 owners already have half of the device

[wicked oak]

for 100 more you get a rift with touch

exactly

[jaunty shell]

also, Sony brand

I don't know anyone who bought a PS4 just for PSVR

[wicked oak]

there is more of them that you think

keep in mind ps4 Pro and psvr released close to each other

a considerable amount of players got a Pro + PSVR

to be fair Pro has equivalent performance to a pc with a 970

from my porting

[jaunty shell]

that's barely enough

[wicked oak]

its good enough for psvr wich is a 1080p headset

you could run Robo Recall on the ps4pro

[jaunty shell]

well yeah they have frame interpolation too

[wicked oak]

there is some talks about optimization where they got Bullet Train working on ps4

they had to optimize some stuff for the platform, as usual, but they got it working right

robo recall is a evolution of that game. More complex of course, but also much muuuuch more optimized

with the forward renderer

[jaunty shell]

Lots of visual hacks too

Like shadowing and stuff

[wicked oak]

yup

keep in mind ps4 crunches drawcalls like they arent even there

biggest problem is pixel "bandwidth"

and overdraw

and forward helps with that

[jaunty shell]

overdraw + VR = hell

[wicked oak]

yeah

i still dont know how in the hell can 1 light cost me 2 ms

unshadowed

i had to remove every single dynamic light from my game

[jaunty shell]

what about stationary lights ?

[wicked oak]

nope

they are still "dynamic"

its just that their shadows are baked

my whole game is using fully static lights

[jaunty shell]

aye

[wicked oak]

well

there is 2 stationary lights

i have 2 direct lights just to render the enemies

that way they are more easily seen

as i have stuff like the white skeletons, they become the color of the environment as the environment is lit

and that makes them harder to see

so i have a dynamic directional light, unshadowed, that uses a light channel only for characters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Iehg7lHvNg

this video shows it clearly

also the thumbnail cant get more obvious

[jaunty shell]

yeah I see

[wicked oak]

they still get lit by the environment tho

its just that i use those extra lights to give them more light

[jaunty shell]

yeah at 2:20 you see that the skeleton is a bit orange

[wicked oak]

2:20? the video is 1 min

[jaunty shell]

erh 0:20

[wicked oak]

ah

sure

he would be a LOT darker if i didnt have those directional lights for characters

[jaunty shell]

because of the lighting samples ?

[wicked oak]

yes

[jaunty shell]

I feel like unity nailed lighting samples compared to UE

[wicked oak]

uhm, you need to place them manually

[jaunty shell]

at least you have a much better control on how these work

[wicked oak]

last time i saw

its annoying as all hell

[jaunty shell]

Yeah true

Trying to come up with a neat and intuitive UI in VR, UMG is actually quite fun to use

Still learning, but I now have a basic menu for our tools

[mighty carbon]

Try Doom 3 BFG VR - it has dynamic lights 100%

Btw, I see VR currently as GPUs when Voodoo was dying and Riva TNT was coming up.

I am sure world economy was better back then and that was a contributing factor for people upgrading from software rendering to hardware rendering.

But also there was a ton of high quality content.

[wicked oak]

well, doom3 light system is really realy damn simple

and it doesnt have that many lights around

but i dont understand how ue4 dynamic lights are so expensive

are their shaders really that much complex?

i might have some settings wrong

[mighty carbon]

Well, simple or not, Doom 3 looks awesome in VR and in non-VR

[jaunty shell]

Doom3 is mostly closed/contained areas

[wicked oak]

and low amount of lights

[jaunty shell]

Now gimme Doom(4) in VR and I'll be impressed

[wicked oak]

and low amount of drawcalls

[jaunty shell]

yeah

[wicked oak]

Doom4 vr is 100% possible

im running it at 140 fps

nearly all maxed

Doom4 vr is just a true tech marvel

[jaunty shell]

would be you mean ?

They only showed (closed demonstration) a demo

But that means their ID engine is now VR ready

id5 had some good and bad sides (Rage was looking great when the texture streaming worked like intended)

[wicked oak]

well, Doom4vr runs at 140 fps on 1080p

i can get to 200 fps if i lower settings

easily

that means the game will run in VR absolutely perfect

i mean, you can literally run the game twice in 2 1080p screens and still have performance to spare

[jaunty shell]

where did you get it ? I can't find anything on a released vr version of the game

[mighty carbon]

Hypothetically

There is no Doom for VR, except Doom 3 BFG mod

[wicked oak]

they showed it in private places

but seems they are focusing on fallout 4 vr

becouse ive never heard of it again

[mighty carbon]

Also, closed spaces is besides the point - lights are lights. UE4 needs fast lights for VR.

[wicked oak]

it sounded like it would have a gameplay highly similar to mine

with a teleport that slows the world

[mighty carbon]

There is a stream tomorrow about UE4 and VR

You might want to join and ask uncomfortable questions about slow dynamic lights

[wicked oak]

i do have a lot of lights running around for the dungeon prototype

i think there is a possibility that enabling one will automatically cause some serious overhead

btw, stream about what?

[mighty carbon]

Check ue4 forums

[tired tree]

Its just a rehash of that talk they already gave

[mighty carbon]

I see

After trying Oculus remote I can see that porting my Gear VR project to Rift would be pretty straight forward

[wicked oak]

nice

im currently porting my dungeon game to ps4

see how it goes

[mighty carbon]

What happened to DWVR for PS4?

[wicked oak]

it passed VR consultation

im getting very close to release

i was just doing the dungeon game to test some specific features and to see if it should be my next game

becouse if i can decide it to be my next game, i can put my interns to start doing concepts and stuff

the only thing left is 1 enemy, and turning the mission system into a graph mission system with unlocks

and well, polishing it for full release

[tired tree]

motor

weren't you getting your rift this weekend?

what happened to that

[wicked oak]

he just said he tried the oculus remote

i think it arrived

[tired tree]

that was for gearvr right?

[wicked oak]

i think he means the small oculus remote

[tired tree]

oh

[wicked oak]

the gearvr one is called different no?

[tired tree]

so he doesn't have touch?

ew

[wicked oak]

i dont know

but i doubt oculus sent him only the headset

[tired tree]

that would suck, getting a dev set at this point without touch

[wicked oak]

its still 500 dollars out of the 600 total

[tired tree]

oh I see, the remote to keep the gameplay the same as the gearvr

would have assumed going for the xbox controller instead in that situation

[wicked oak]

btw @tired tree , how do you handle imput in your vr stuff?

it has to be different per hand, customzable, and changing depending on the controller

[tired tree]

ah, you mean between brands?

[wicked oak]

on DWVR i do it on the player controller and do all the different logic there, then just send the stuff to the character or the hand actor

[tired tree]

I do input in the character, easy enough to make a base character class and override things with sub ones

but I'm not making a game

IE: base character with logic, sub characters with input mapping to the different functions, for different platforms

also can get the HMD manufacturer to auto select between oculus and vive on steamvr

since otherwise the button mappings are bad

[mighty carbon]

I got the whole enchilada @tired tree

Just didn't have time to setup Touch as I need to move furniture around

[tired tree]

nice, then you get to play with the fun stuff

presence is 100x better with "Hands"

[mighty carbon]

But I tried stuff that doesn't require Touch and the experince I am working on doesn't need touch. So remote would work well.

[tired tree]

yeah i figured that out

i'm stuck forgetting the remote is even a thing :p

[mighty carbon]

And I can see that Rift lacks nice small passive experiences badly

Sounds like a niche yet to be filled ;)

And from the yesterday's news, there were only ~50k of Touch controllers sold

Apparently not everyone upgraded

[tired tree]

yeah thats one of the problems with it not coming with it originally

and taking so long to get them out

[mighty carbon]

I guessing it won't be an issue when more current bundles are sold

In 5 years perhaps :(

[tired tree]

lots of casual VR heads won't get the importance of touch anyway, have to see it in action

[mighty carbon]

Casual = more monies ;)

It also so much easier to just grab remote, put headset on and dive into VR

Setup was a breeze actually. I expected it to be cumbersome.

[tired tree]

its not cumbersome until you start adding additional cameras

and thats mostly logistics

[mighty carbon]

I might try setting up touch tonight if I have time

Front facing only for now

I am still puzzled by why Rift isn't selling well (besides pricing issue)

Btw, is it possible to run Rift as conventional screen right from the boot?

[wicked oak]

NO

you need some software for that

its not there by "default"

rift sells worse becouse they blew it by not releasing with the hand controllers

that made sure that Vive took all the spotlight

[tired tree]

yeah, everyone was seeing all of the hand interactions from day1 vive, which released first even

[wicked oak]

it didnt

[tired tree]

?

i thought it hit a month earlier

or do i have that backwards

[wicked oak]

i dont remember that

i do remember i bought an oculus 15 min into the preorder

and took 6 months to arrive

and then i sold it 2 months later and bought a vive

[tired tree]

oh, that was probably it

forgot the pre-order was so bad for rift

[wicked oak]

it was also terrible for vive

[mighty carbon]

https://www.vrfocus.com/2017/04/get-up-close-and-personal-with-a-xenomorph-in-alien-covenant-in-utero/

[tired tree]

it was, still got it faster though

[wicked oak]

Touch went perfect

but base rift was a true disaster

their webpage got ddosed to hell

[mighty carbon]

I still think that sales numbers difference is only true because of early adopters and initial setbacks for Oculus

Right now I don't see a compelling reason to spend money on Vive.

(From consumer point of view)

[wicked oak]

oculus is better and cheaper

unless

you are going to use a big room

setting up 3-4 cameras for big roomscale is annoying as all hell

with all the cables around

and lighthouse is superior there

also vive is going to get wireless soon

wich is a spectacular selling point

[mighty carbon]

Wireless at what cost?

Btw, cable didn't bother me at all

I thought it's a biggest disadvantage of desktop VR. Now I don't think it's the case at all.

[tired tree]

cable is more annoying with roomscale

far more

but its manageable

its not the vive I am tied to anyway, I like the SteamVR ecosystem itself

i doubt that HTC will be the Goto for 2nd gen

but likely a different compatible supplier

the VR standard needs to be a thing though, I don't feel like Valve is planning orientated enough to really handle setting the bar for VR for long term

there are already gaps and oversights in OpenVR that have sat around for too long

[wicked oak]

good we have OpenXR

also, blame valve for picking the OpenVR name for themselves

[tired tree]

we have promises of OpenXR and no real indication of how comprehensive it will be...

hopefully it is done right

[mighty carbon]

Well, Steam has its advantages over Oculus Store. It's just horrible from devs perspective

[tired tree]

why horrible?

home is very limiting

[mighty carbon]

Because it's already super saturated

Also, I had hard time finding free VR apps on Steam. So at this point Home and Steam are on par.

[wicked oak]

and oculus store has less stuff, but its horrible

truly terrible

try to search for free games

in oculus store

[jaunty shell]

Little survey to yall : for industrial projects, what kind of user interface would you use ? Diegetic ? Virtual Tablet ? Other ?

[wicked oak]

you cant search, you cant cataloge, there are no per-game forums

[mighty carbon]

I haven't actually tried Steam in VR yet, used desktop Steam to search.

[wicked oak]

virtual tablet

its more normal for the users

but have information in the 3d world

[jaunty shell]

This is the current implementation

[mighty carbon]

I like voice search, but apparently it's for Gear VR only :(

[jaunty shell]

I was thinking about UX, and I wonder if a dummy tablet using the vive tracker would do well

[tired tree]

saturated market is going to happen, you can't knock it for being open enough to get your product in. Also they are closing it down more soon

[jaunty shell]

although the navigation is working well, using a raycast to navigate the menus feels is a bit weird right now

And there is the problem of contextual information too : where is the best place to place it ?

[tired tree]

you are manually raycasting UMG?

instead of using the interaction widget component?

[jaunty shell]

nah it uses an interaction widget component

the ray is just for the visuals

[tired tree]

oh you mean you'd rather button press to navigate

have rollouts

for contextual information

[jaunty shell]

rollouts ?

hmm

[full junco]

@tired tree I guess with "closing it down" you mean steam direct?

I guess that won't affect VR unfortunately

[jaunty shell]

@tired tree This is the kind of contextual information I had in mind. Feels like it cramps the UI a bit when there's a lot to display

[tired tree]

@full junco , I doubt steam direct will live for that much longer, they got the base they wanted. Also with greenlight going away the market is just going to be less freely available in the future.

[full junco]

well they might just make it $200 so that still everyone can afford it

[mighty carbon]

I have 2 AppIDs available, so I am good for 2 future games for Steam :)

[mighty carbon]

I really hope 4.16 will have fully functional 100% VR ready audio.

Any idea about that?

[tired tree]

for mobile? or otherwise

because steam audio is in it

also the new audio engine is just better overall

[mighty carbon]

Steam audio won't cut it for Rift

New audio engine would connect with Oculus Audio SDK

So, I am not sure whether Oculus has to provide integration and then Epic would put it into master or something else needs to happen

Mobile would be cool, but at this point I'd be happy with desktop only Oculus Audio.

[tired tree]

?

steam audio isn't platform dependant

its an engine SDK

Also oculus audio can't deal with occlusion as it doesn't integrate into the scene

[real needle]

How do I get the position of a Vive Motion Controller in blueprint?

I got it. It's "Get Hand Position and Orientation". Never looked for Hand lol

[vagrant mantle]

I'm having some trouble with ik for motion controllers,all set up in the animation blueprint but can't find a way to position the 3rd person character..

[real needle]

Is there any way to see debug information while in VR Preview? oO

[full junco]

you can print it same like without VR

[real needle]

Really there is no way of leaving the BP editor open?

[full junco]

can be a bit difficult to read, but mostly its fine

performance would be really bad if you keep the editor open

[real needle]

Do I really have to print it inside the HMD where I am not able to see text as good? oO

wow okay that's kind of really odd to not be able to view debug info on a second screen

[zinc rose]

@real needle if youre printing info.. then watch the output log for the results on the second screen.

[surreal hearth]

@jaunty shell For utilitarian projects (non-games) I wouldn't go diegetic. I think you're on the better path with UI's constrained to controllers. I like how Google Earth, Oculus Medium and many others handle menu systems this way.

If it's an immersive game, then I can see integrating things into the world.

[jaunty shell]

Aye, I'll focus on a tablet like UI then

There's too much stuff to keep everything on controller buttons and interfaces

And most user won't have any experience with games in general

[surreal hearth]

Then yeah, I think tablet-type interactions make a lot of sense.

[jaunty shell]

👌

[mighty carbon]

Make ui as seen in Iron Man and/or Minority Report

:-)

[fossil stratus]

is there way to check how many draw calls a specific model has?

[wicked oak]

one per material

if its part of the z prepass, add one more

[full junco]

and more for dynamic shadows

[surreal hearth]

new level> place into new level> stat rhi

or stat scenerendering

[tribal citrus]

Got this working today

https://twitter.com/RonnerBBQ/status/856591880812933121

Johan Ronner (@RonnerBBQ)

Some progress are being made in the animation department today! #gamedev #VR #UE4 #indiedev https://t.co/KgZciAvDsX

Twitter

[wicked oak]

sell it and undercut IKinema @tribal citrus

make it open source. Ikinema closed source shanenigans mean i literally cant use it

[fossil stratus]

hmm Yeah i got that.. I'm going back and trying out this :

instacing meshes with in a blue print to reduce draw calls

[wicked oak]

instanced meshes have an issue

they wont get culled

so if you can draw one, you will draw the whole bunch

[fossil stratus]

oh

hmm

[wicked oak]

they are a superhuge speedup tho

[fossil stratus]

occluson culling is automatic right?

i have it enabled

[wicked oak]

it is

[glossy agate]

Why not try hlod?

They will be clustered

[wicked oak]

hlod is cool, but i dont have metrics for them to say anything

[glossy agate]

From what I heard, each cluster becomes 1 draw call somehow. I have tried it just to try it, but didn't do anything significant with it.

[fossil stratus]

yeah that what I read too

I'm tryng out a few different things..

[wicked oak]

my problem is that hlods were 100% broken with instanced stereo

and i need instanced stereo

[glossy agate]

Ah, I did not know that.

Level streaming ended up giving me what I needed, so I just stopped there. Just needed load times cut way down.

[fossil stratus]

is there a way to check out /play the robot recall without an oculus connected? i want to see what the stats are

[wicked oak]

my game loads stupidly fast for some reason

like sub 1 second

in a ps4 devkit, on "simulate slow hard disc" on , still doesnt go past 5 sec

[glossy agate]

Sweet! Yeah that's quick. Mine was 8-10 seconds. After level streaming setup it went down to about 2 or less.

[fossil stratus]

the robotrecall mod i mean

[glossy agate]

Anyone here try implementing the Viveport DRM SDK? It gives me the option to integrate one, or they will automatically use a wrapper DRM. Any difference that I should look out for?

[fossil stratus]

I'm trying texture atlasing to see if if helps a bit

with draw calls

[mighty carbon]

holy smokes - just tried Touch

not 360 deg as I only have 2 sensors, but I'd say 270 deg for sure

but damn, so good

[tired tree]

much better presence eh?

[mighty carbon]

yes, if I do stuff using VR hands

doesn't really make it whole a lot more immersive if I simply see them in VR

I guess to really measure level of immersion, I need to get acquainted with Touch more and then go back to those Touch-less experiences

fun fact - as soon as I start following with "press that, move stick, etc." initial instructions I felt, naturally, as if I had gloves over my real hands

bizarre sensation

already thought of 3D-printing soda / beer holder with Touch socket 😛

actually I take it back.. Now that I think back to those moments in VR with that little robot and how I tried not to hit my hands on the edge of virtual table, Touch adds quite some to the presence

btw, don't want to jinx it, but I had zero issues with tracking

also had to plug HMD into USB2, and free my USB 3 ports (4 on one controller I believe is what I have now) for both sensors.

For true room scale I'd need to get rear panel with (2) USB3 ports and plug it into second controller on my mobo

but for now I am contempt with 270'ish degrees experience 😃

[full junco]

you see its a lot more annoying to setup than a vive

[tired tree]

your tracking should be good, you got in after all of the issues :p

[pearl tangle]

the tracking quality is fine, its the range on 360 and usb ports that become the main annoyance there. depending on your mobo can be a hassle

[mighty carbon]

@full junco how so? It went smooth. I just plugged all 3 (2 sensors and HMD) into one controller

like, literally I didn't feel there was an issue

what mobo manufacturers should do is mark mobos as VR ready if mobos have enough USB 3 controllers

this way users wouldn't have to think twice

[full junco]

the vive lighthouses don't need any connection to the PC, so 0 USB ports for them. the 2 lighthouses only need power and then they just work and give you perfect roomscale tracking up to 5x5 meters

[tired tree]

past 5x5 in many cases

[mighty carbon]

so they telepathically send transmission into the system case without any receivers?

[tired tree]

i can walk half out of my room

they don't have to talk to anything

they sync laser pulses

they just talk to each other

[full junco]

the lighthouses don't send anything to the PC

[tired tree]

they bluetooth to start up and update

[mighty carbon]

ok, but Lighthouse can't do CV

Oculus cameras can

[full junco]

CV?

[mighty carbon]

and eventually will transport user into VR, full body

Computer Vision

[tired tree]

lol

ok

we'll wait for that USB bandwidth

those current cameras aren't anywhere near that

[mighty carbon]

they probably can do what Kinect does

real-time mocap

[tired tree]

no

they can't

not with the current cameras

[mighty carbon]

probably would need 4 cams for that

eh? how so?

iPi Soft users PS Eye cameras for mocap

(from PS3)

[tired tree]

going to have to tear that IR filter off

assuming they still use it

[mighty carbon]

I see

so then that article that Fb can spy on you via Rift's cameras was bogus ?

[tired tree]

what article?

pretty sure I only ever read that it was sending data back

not webcam spying

sounds like terrible writing

[mighty carbon]

there was an article on Uploadvr that Fb can easily spy on people through Rift's cams and you'd have to cover them when not in use

[tired tree]

you can still get recognizable images out of it

just IR only

[pearl tangle]

you could but the resolution on them is rubbish since they aren't trying to watch people

[tired tree]

pretty sure the controller is for a 1080p camera

now sure what the actual thing is runing at

[pearl tangle]

they definitely wont be doing full body markerless mocap with those types of cameras. a lot of people keep saying oculus went that route and thinking they would be able to do it with a software update, but the hardware needs to drastically change for that. even the top end Opitrack stuff still uses IR markers and will cost you $20k+ to do a decent setup for full body tracking

if lighthouse allowed you to daisychain a bunch of them together like they suggested it would then it will be awesome for warehouse scale stuff. but at the moment they haven't been able to get that working so we have to go with camera based systems for large scale stuff

[tired tree]

next version is supposed to work daisy

the single rotor

[pearl tangle]

yeah hopefully it does, but apparently they were having a lot of tech issues getting that going, which is why the stuff hasn't actually been open sourced yet\

[mighty carbon]

like I said, iPi Soft does mocap (and it's a high quality mocap) using PS3 cams

320x240

[pearl tangle]

it's not considered high quality no.

you get much better quality out of 4 kinect v2's

like way way better quality

[tired tree]

isn't ipsoft compiled too?

not live

[mighty carbon]

no, you can't

[tired tree]

lol what?

[mighty carbon]

you can only run 1 kinect v2 on a single PC

[pearl tangle]

you can run multiple kinect v2's on a single PC

[mighty carbon]

tell that to Brekel

[pearl tangle]

hence why they support multi kinect v2 capture on the software

you couldn't run multiple kinect v1 in the same space before unless you put 1 of them on a vibrating platform to stop them conflicting with each other

kinect v2 works better and can handle multiple 1s of them much easier, it just needs a whole usb3 controller to itself to handle it, so you run some PCI-E USBs and you are fine

[mighty carbon]

God damn you stubborn http://forum.ipisoft.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9731

"Dual Kinect v2 would be better than Kinect v1 but you'll need 2 PCs to handle them due to limitation in MS Kinect SDK. Practically any modern laptop including low-end ones can handle Kinect v2."

you can not

Brekel told me that, iPi Soft dev told me that

obviously if that was possible, they would have implemented such setup

Brekel works with MS directly

@tired tree yeah, it does mocap evaluation offline

[pearl tangle]

there are open source libraries for handling multiple kinect v2 on a single system

[mighty carbon]

apparently they aren't good if those 2 leading mocap projects didn't use it

markerless*

[pearl tangle]

because they are integrating in somebody elses stuff in there. Microsoft has already done it with their room alive toolkit as well

[mighty carbon]

again, the point is that there is nothing out there, besides those crappy FOSS drivers who no one cares about, that supports 2+ Kinects per 1 PC

[glossy agate]

What games you try so far?

[mighty carbon]

none

downloading everything free that came with Touch right now

[pearl tangle]

hah and the microsoft toolkit which also supports it... and you can also run a virtual box on a machine and run it netoworked and run up to 4 on a single box without too many issues either

[mighty carbon]

Robo Recall, Dead and Buried, Farlands (not with Touch, but free), The Unspoken, MIssion ISS, First Contact

[pearl tangle]

and also they are still rubbish quality compared to proper professional mocap solutions, of which the rift cameras come nowhere close to being able to match and no amount of software tweaks will ever change that

[glossy agate]

Nice was robo cool?

[mighty carbon]

@pearl tangle if you feel smarter than iPi Soft devs and Brekel, please tell them that they aren't smart and they should add support for second Kintect v2

[pearl tangle]

you can already do it with their stuff mate I just told you 2 workarounds to do it on a single computer

[mighty carbon]

again, if that was possible, they both would advise me about that.. After all, it's in their interest to sell me their software. They didn't advise about that because they already most likely tried it and that didn't work

[pearl tangle]

if you are the person trying to run it on a shitty laptop that can barely handle 1 kinect v2 then yeah they wouldn't advise you to do that because the laptop cant handle it

a decent PC can easily handle multiple virtual boxes linking together

[mighty carbon]

it's funny how people think they are smarter than other devs (and I am guilty of that too), but more likely than not, people already tried what you just thought of and for a good reason did not implement it.

decent PC is with i7 in it ?

[pearl tangle]

people have tried it. they have tried it. I have tried it, microsoft has a specific version of the software that allows it. Can you give me 1 reason why running a virtual machine, on the same computer, with the exact same software as another external machine would not work?

[mighty carbon]

I'd have to have 2 copies of Windows (or second copy rather)

[pearl tangle]

because that stops the thing from physically being able to work, needing to buy software...

if you have another computer, you also need windows on it to run

[mighty carbon]

yeah, and I don't have another computer

and that's why I needed to run 2 Kinects in the same PC without any hacks

not even PC, but laptop

[pearl tangle]

then you run the room alive toolkit or the other usb libraries which can handle it or you do a virtual machine on the 1 computer using the free version of windows you can grab and then create an image and reinstate it once the limit runs up

then thats not going to work because you don't get the USB bandwidth to handle them

hence why they wouldn't recommend it to you

[mighty carbon]

I have 1 USB-C, 2 USB3 ports on that laptop

should be plenty of bandwidth for 2 Kinects

[pearl tangle]

yeah and they will most likely all be running connected sharing the bandwidth\

no, no it's not. you need completely separate USB controllers

even a lot of desktop computers will share the 1 controller for 4 usb ports

[mighty carbon]

USB-C and USB 3 are on the same controller? Not on my desktop

[pearl tangle]

you would need to look at your actual motherboard and see

[mighty carbon]

I do have 4 USB3 ports on one controller, and 1 USB-C port on entirely different controller

[pearl tangle]

then it might be able to handle 2, idno. can't really say until you test it. I run into plenty of issues having rift and vive and xbox 360 and xbox 1 controller on a high end motherboard, have to unplug half the stuff to be able to get a kinect to run on them

[mighty carbon]

well, now that I spent $$ on VR, I doubt I will be messing with mocap any time soon

[pearl tangle]

if you went for the vive instead of rift then you could have got decent mocap from a couple of the tracking pucks. ikinema stuff seems very impressive for the cost. also you can record and modify your mocap straight in unreal

also even the epic guys prefer playing robo recall on the vive hah

[mighty carbon]

I was barely able to afford what I have now :/

[pearl tangle]

could try and sell some of your assets and animations on the marketplace make a few bucks maybe? or on turbosquid

[mighty carbon]

nah, but I am working on my VR stuff for that purpose

I am sure I'll need mocap for character anims for a larger project

[glossy agate]

Was gonna say, just ship a game. You can dev for both systems when you have touch.

Get more money to purchase more toys

[pearl tangle]

still i highly recommend to anybody doing VR stuff, get the game across all the platforms and get it out on steam and viveport or you are missing 50%+ of your potential market, if not more

[mighty carbon]

I am gonna have to wait on @pearl tangle and his new magic PR agency for VR devs 😉

coming from PC dev I can tell you it's a bad bad idea for small indies

better make it solid for one platform, localize it, then move to another platform, and then on another

(unless that's what you meant to say)

[pearl tangle]

didn't say you hve to do it all at one time. but you will want to get it out across the different market places still

too many people just releasing on steam or just on oculus from personal preference or whatnot. but if you want money then you can't let emotion play into it at all

[mighty carbon]

indeed

but Vive isn't cheap

I guess if one platform makes some money, better invest it into Vive

[pearl tangle]

well if you end up getting the vive then you also end up getting access to cheap high quality mocap as well which is what you want

[glossy agate]

Yeah I just setup my viveport dev account today. Having my dad translate to Chinese for me to get that extra market share

[mighty carbon]

man, those games / apps are huge (download size)

[glossy agate]

I'm thinking if only 400k vives sold so far 30-40% may be in China. My dad has seen the arcades scattered around there

[pearl tangle]

yeah there are shitloads of arcades popping up

every single booth here at the unreal open day was VR, except for the epic demos

oh and the nvidia machine learning stuff

[mighty carbon]

@pearl tangle so what would it cost poor indie to be represented by your PR project ?

[glossy agate]

@mighty carbon get rec room when you have a chance too. Free, and it's got one of the highest download rates for vr if you want to try a social game

Even the 3D drawing pictuonary was fun with like 10 strangers

[mighty carbon]

I don't like social stuff

[pearl tangle]

oh yeah rec room is 1 of the most fun things you can do for sure

[mighty carbon]

except dev chats like this one

[pearl tangle]

a bunch of mini games in there so it's good fun. best 1 you can get for free on steam im sure

[glossy agate]

Yeah, but if you are gonna dev for the community you may want to get in there and see what they want to play

[mighty carbon]

in VR (or PC games) I prefer to be a lone hero getting into interesting stories and lores

[pearl tangle]

and for PR/publisher type stuff it would completely depend on the product, the go to market strategy, business model, etc. would likely cost about $100k to do a half decent launch for a game. so would need to take whatever % of the games profits to cover that and make a decent profit out of

[mighty carbon]

I don't like MP either (I only really liked playing Quake 3 in a club with real people face to face)

[glossy agate]

Vr you basically are face to face haha that's what's so fun

[mighty carbon]

@pearl tangle Sure thing. I am just wondering what % it would be. 80%, 60%, 40% ?

[pearl tangle]

that bit doesn't matter. If your game was going to make only $200k then it would be like 80%, but if there is room for your game to make a mill then that bit comes down. Can't make any of those calls without making proper business plans

[mighty carbon]

in other words, it's not for indies

[glossy agate]

Most of the like 12 games that broke 1mil in vr have been 1-2 or tiny teams.

Onward was 1 dude using his student loans to live off of haha

[pearl tangle]

yep. it's all about getting the right marketing in there

doesn't matter how good your product is if you cant market it properly. so better to get 50% of something that sells a lot better than 100% of nothing

[mighty carbon]

Onward "only" made 400k revenue and the guy literally works from Valve's office

[pearl tangle]

the difference with what I would offer people is that it covers all the marketing and distribution, localization and translation, plus access to the UDN and team of highly skilled developers and a QA team

[glossy agate]

It made over a mil. They invited him over to work there in January to get more support because it already did so well.

They want to support successful ips

[pearl tangle]

there are a lot of extra things you need to consider on top of just making a game to get something useful from it
website
social media
logos and branding
company setup
localization + translation
PR and events
accounting and legal

[mighty carbon]

btw, how would you know what a game would make until you PR crap out of it and start selling it, @pearl tangle ?

[pearl tangle]

market research

[glossy agate]

The angry birds guys made like 40 concepts before the publisher picked the birds idea

[mighty carbon]

well, we aren't NOtch, or Angry Birds guy, or Onward guy..

also, who would have thought that Onward would be popular ? I seems like a puke machine to me even from just watching videos

[glossy agate]

But it's what people imagine when they think of what would be cool in vr

[mighty carbon]

Notch even said it himself - it was a happy accident

[glossy agate]

At least I did

[pearl tangle]

yep. thats why you get people in prototypes of it and see how things work. do testing and market research and then you have a much better idea. whatever you think is going to work well in VR probably is not

[glossy agate]

What I'm doing after this publish is just posting concepts on YouTube to see what I get the most response from

[mighty carbon]

that still needs to gain traction somehow

might want to give your game to TOtal Biscuit

btw, do I need to quit Oculus Home to use Steam VR with Rift ?

[fresh laurel]

https://uploadvr.com/googles-new-vr-camera-given-away-free-creators/

[mighty carbon]

what was that app for Steam where you can pet a robot dog that looks like it came from world of Portal ?

[pearl tangle]

its the lab

[fresh laurel]

https://twitter.com/Ross_McDougall/status/856370049761792000

Ross McDougall (@Ross_McDougall)

So @LenovoANZ Mixed Reality #VR headsets are arriving August 2017! $399.
1440x1440 resolution
380g
6 degrees of inside out tracking.
NICE!

Twitter

[mighty carbon]

oh that's the Lab

ok, gotta get it

thanks

[fresh laurel]

https://twitter.com/Ross_McDougall/status/856370049761792000

Ross McDougall (@Ross_McDougall)

So @LenovoANZ Mixed Reality #VR headsets are arriving August 2017! $399.
1440x1440 resolution
380g
6 degrees of inside out tracking.
NICE!

Twitter

😮

[mighty carbon]

but no controllers ?

[pearl tangle]

it should have some hand tracking in there I would say

[fresh laurel]

I am curious if it is 1440x1440 per eye

or just for the entire HMD

[mighty carbon]

any idea if the Onward guy outsourced art assets or did 100% everything himself from scratch ?

[sturdy coral]

@mighty carbon he had some people helping with the assets and a lot is from unity's marketplace

[mighty carbon]

oh, I thought he used UE4

[sturdy coral]

all the guns are from a pretty common asset pack, same as h3vr uses

[glossy agate]

A lot are purchased. Bam has the same subway as onward haha. If you play island 365 and Brookhaven experiment you will recognize a lot of the content.

Art takes a long time to make, so it's easier to buy content and give it a once over as needed. The island 365 guys gave a gdc talk on the subject you can watch on YouTube.

*subway level

[pearl tangle]

Definitely the faster way to go as an indie

[mighty carbon]

wow, Steam VR provides such a shitty experience for Rift.. Horrible 😦

[sturdy coral]

how so?

@mighty carbon

mostly Oculus produces a shitty experience for SteamVR (they won't let it launch from the headset, so if you accidentally exit it or intentionally play an Oculus Home game it closes out and you can't get back in; installing it is a pain and makes users click a scare switch about fake security concerns (you are already running an untrusted executable and have gotten through UWP, so your system is owned if the software was malicious anyway))

[mighty carbon]

sorry, was recalling robots 😃

well, I installed Steam VR (had to launch Steam after Oculus Store - otherwise Steam doesn't detect Rift), tried running Deus Ex VR - it told me that I am running it with Seam VR using Rift and thus performance will be shitty. It told me I should be running it without Steam VR (which I can't do because it's on Steam only :/ ). Instead performance was good, but ditortion correction was incorrect.

Then I tried Back to Dinosaur Island - had hard time launching it. Finally it did, but it had no Touch support so I couldn't even get out of the "theater" .

Then I tried Back to Dinosaur Island 2 and that froze (I saw an extra window that was saying "Connecting to the app..")

Then I quit Steam VR and Oculus Home was showing that my sensors are not responding and I don't have enough bandwidth.

Had to reboot PC

the only positive moment is initial set up - went really smoothly

@sturdy coral ^^

I am sweating balls after Robo Recall. Really active game and really cool as far as action and music goes (and graphics of course)

btw, I played with pretty high quality settings and my i3 / 1060 did a great job - performance seemed to be really good.

I wonder if Arizona Sunshine is a good game

[clever sky]

Motorsep finally on motion controller boat.

[mighty carbon]

😄

off to sleep, cya

[pearl tangle]

Robo recall is a hell of a lot better with 360 tracking on

[pearl tangle]

Also Arizona sunshine is a great game. Awesome fun if you have some friends in it to co op with

[glossy agate]

Add me when you grab az sunshine. "Fatmoth" on steam. Coop is a lot of fun.

[real needle]

Hey, I just found this, VERY helpful when learning VR interactions in UE4: https://github.com/mitchemmc/VRContentExamples

[jaunty shell]

@real needle mitch's VRCE is a great base to start learning and building interactions 😃

[real needle]

I never expected it to be so...complicated. But maybe it's just because I don't fully grasp all the terms like Components, Interfaces etc. I kind of get it, I can program or rather script quite a bit in 3ds max but it is still very difficult yet at the same time easy since it is so visual. Can you recommend a good tutorial on the whole Blueprint system and its components in general?

[jaunty shell]

Well he wrote a book on how to start with UE4 and VR projects

There's also quite a lot of tutorials on the official Unreal Engine youtube channel

@real needle https://www.youtube.com/user/UnrealDevelopmentKit/playlists?shelf_id=17&view=50&sort=dd you'll find everything you need here 😃

[real needle]

Is the book also targeted at people who have a general idea about programming stuff but are not really proficient and never worked with UE before in terms of programming?

[jaunty shell]

hmm I have no idea

[real needle]

Nice Videos man! Cool! Thanks for that! I guess I'll start with "Blueprint Essentials" ^^

[jaunty shell]

the best solution for now would be to familiarize with UE4 with the official tuts yeah 😃

[real needle]

Yeah I mean I find my way around and already built a level and lighting and all. I really need to get into Blueprint now though xD

[jaunty shell]

practice makes perfect 😉

[candid plinth]

what to confirm, izit the Monoscopic Far Field in UE 4.15 only for mobile platform? it won't work on PC using Oculus Rift ?

[wicked oak]

that lenovo headset at 400 is really damn good

inside out tracking + 1440p resolution sounds quite good

i wonder if it will work with SteamVR, and if it will be well built

you can put a high res screen, but if it is as cheap as a common cardboard shit headset, and lenses are terrible, then its not worth it

[mighty carbon]

@candid plinth monoscopic rendering is for mobile (Gear VR) only

[candid plinth]

ok, thanks for the reply. I currently working on a VR project with UE 4.14.3, and i tried to change it to UE 4.15.1 because of the Monoscopic Far Field feature, but unfortunately it currently only support for mobile.

[mighty carbon]

Btw folks, so far it seems that i3 Skylake and 1060 is plenty enough for Robo Recall.

[candid plinth]

btw, i found out that when i change my VR project to UE 4.15.1, the fps of my program is lower, it's normal? And actually it is worth to convert my VR project (for window, oculus rift) to UE 4.15 or I should continue work on 4.14?

[mighty carbon]

I wouldn't know. I had no issues with my Gear VR project and I haven't tried porting it to Rift yet. I am with 4.15.1 atm

[tired tree]

motor you try onward yet?

its a bit clunky but the overall game is good

[mighty carbon]

Nah, don't plan to. I don't like military shooters (never played CoDs for example).

[tired tree]

its a more of a sim, and has interactions to study being the main point there

[mighty carbon]

I am wondering about any front-facing games with progression/story for Rift. Kinda like RR, but with story.

[wicked oak]

some of the "ported" games

like that mist style game

or Vertigo

the mist style game works great on the rift

they just added Touch support

[tired tree]

the mist like game is supposed to be great as a game, but the VR was bad originally, they got it better?

wasn't it comfort turn with controllers originally?

[wicked oak]

yes, they have improved it a lot

[mighty carbon]

I meant front-facing FPS with teleporting and story :)

Not Obduction

[pearl tangle]

you can do it with arizona sunshine

[mighty carbon]

Aye, will try that one next.

Btw, the cord didn't even bother me when playing RR. Perhaps corded VR is not without future :)

The only problem with VR and motion controls is physical space :( That's why I think gamepad and remote still have their place in VR.

[full junco]

corded VR is without future since once you can add wireless for $50 every HMD will have it

[wicked oak]

not sure about 4k headsets with wireles

and not sure about the extra latency when we are doing foveated rendering

its a true fuckton of latency

that vive wireless thing is said to work fairly well, but it does add ~10-20 ms latency

and needs direct line of sight to the receiver

im not sure if you can scale it up 3 times to do 4k

[full junco]

people were able to put their hand on it and didnt notice any issue

and people said they didnt notice any latency

[wicked oak]

but if we put this alongside an standalone unit, then its much more interesting

as the headset can do the timewarp itself

lowering the latency

[mighty carbon]

It's going to be ages before standalone HMD has enough juice to offer visuals we have today on desktop.

[wicked oak]

its not about the texture resolution or things like that

remember the true use for VR about workplace and social does not need fancy graphics

fancy graphics are for gaming and gaming only

[mighty carbon]

True use for VR is entertainment

[full junco]

VR stays gaming only for now

[mighty carbon]

And while fancy graphics isn't everything, you still need to crunch down drawcalls and lighting

[wicked oak]

you said it before with doom 3 vr

we can go back to the graphics of older games

but we can do it better

PBR is not thaaaaaaat much more expensive

for the shaders

[mighty carbon]

Now that I tried Rift, I think end goal is realistic visuals

For deeper immersion

Social in VR isn't that cool IMO. I'd rather use Skype than VR.

But I don't like social media anyway, so it's just me

[wicked oak]

i also highly dislike it

but you cant deny the power of social vr

[mighty carbon]

Skype-like VR with 360 deg streaming video would be a wonderful thing

[tired tree]

social media is different from "social experiences" in VR

[mighty carbon]

As for workspace, I don't see any use for VR in a workspace, unless it's simulation or/and education.

[tired tree]

there are decent "social experiences"

Alt-space can be a lot of fun at times

[mighty carbon]

Well, social stuff for me would be communicating with my family when away. I don't have time for any other social stuff online.

[full junco]

realistic visuals primarly need better screens currently

then when better screens are there, it needs better GPUs

better screens will easily be available in the future, better GPUs can take a while

[mighty carbon]

Lol, better screens? I don't know about that. I find Rift screen to be just fine.

Better lenses - maybe

[jaunty shell]

Getting closer to a decent tablet-like UI ! Nested Widgets are cool 😃

[tired tree]

then look out to the distance

look more than 10 feet away from you

the low res is terrible

[mighty carbon]

Like I said, I did not have any issues with my setup. Yes, resolution can always be better. However, it's a made up problem. If you play games and not look for pixels and rays and such, you just enjoy product without any second thoughts

[full junco]

the resolution currently limits games a lot

like, in any shooter, you cant really shoot at anything thats further away than 20 meters since its just 1 pixel

[jaunty shell]

@mighty carbon have you tried Simracing with VR ? This is the kind of game that requires an enormous pixel quantity to be able to see details in the distance

[tired tree]

the argument that realistic visuals don't in the end require a higher pixel density is absurd btw......

[full junco]

yeah, in racing games you can't see which way the curve 200 meters ahead of you is going, and thats obvoiusly a huge issue

[jaunty shell]

with the DK1 you felt like your vision was not exceeding a few meters, which is quite a problem at high speeds

[tired tree]

considering we need what? 12k per eye res to approach "realistic"

[full junco]

8K total will be mostly fine though

[tired tree]

yeah

[jaunty shell]

the tech is getting here anyways

now the processing tech to fuel these screens, that will be something else.

[tired tree]

well the higher the pixel density the better foveated rendering will do

compared to standard

[mighty carbon]

I think I'll puke playing racing games in VR

[tired tree]

never know until you try

might as well "try"

being so fresh to controller roomscale, you'd prob puke in my demos too :p

[jaunty shell]

racing in VR is totally fine if you stick to a cockpit view

[mighty carbon]

Have you shot real weapons? It's hard to hit a small target at a distance, no matter clarity of " visuals". Moving targets are even harder to hit.

[tired tree]

yes

AK's, pistols, bolts

[full junco]

thats an issue with how good youre with hitting the target though. you can still see the target very well

[tired tree]

but there is a difference between the two

none of my targets have less than a pixel of fidelity

[mighty carbon]

By realistic visuals I don't mean photorealistic.

[tired tree]

even "ue4" level realistic needs more res

just to hit parity with desktop, or even close to it

[jaunty shell]

heck, you have to boost the SP by at least two to have decent results

[full junco]

yeah, if it would be as good as a full hd desktop screen in regular distance that would already be nice

thats pretty much 8K though

[tired tree]

i mean....you are pushing an already lower res screen (when halved for eyes) inches from your face

and then throwing out edge pixels anyway

[jaunty shell]

http://68.media.tumblr.com/025a27a8bb3d1ad8ed4e8cd30486edec/tumblr_o0cmf5zoxZ1qav3uso3_r1_540.gif

[mighty carbon]

You guys are super spoiled

[jaunty shell]

yeah, that's why very high density displays are gonna be a win. Or variable density displays

[tired tree]

spoiled? the hell? this is what it will take to "finish" the tech, we've been working with it since the beginning REGARDLESS of these issues

[jaunty shell]

@mighty carbon my eyes still hurt from the hours and hours of DK1 dev

[tired tree]

hell I still have a pair of goggles with custom lenses embedded into them I used for testing prior to DK1

talk about bad visuals

[jaunty shell]

you could count the pixels without trying back then. you could even see the SPACE BETWEEN THE GODDAMN PIXELS AND THE SUBPIXELS 😅

effin screendoor man

[full junco]

I can still see every subpixel in the vive

[tired tree]

something about how "Bad" dk1 was and how clunky it was, I actually got some of my best presence on it

it was unworldly

[jaunty shell]

you have to concentrate a bit though

[full junco]

when looking at white, you can still see the red/green/blue

yeah, you have to focus on it a lot

[jaunty shell]

@tired tree HLVR + Hydra + DK1 was my first presence inducing experience

with one controller strapped to your chest

[mighty carbon]

I don't see anything in Rift unless I look for it

SDE is what I mean

[jaunty shell]

https://us.v-cdn.net/6024342/uploads/editor/3l/xpho7gvwsue2.jpg

people are more or less affected depending on their eyesight

[mighty carbon]

Try using your VR as consumer, not as picky developer. You'll be much happier ;)

I can see SDE if I focus on the screen and look for it. But I don't do that.

[jaunty shell]

hmm as a dev no, or I'd pretty much stop doing my job :p

[tired tree]

people complain about SDE all the time

on reddit, on forums, in steam reviews

i have tons of friends waiting for gen2

JUST because of it

[wicked oak]

funny enough, its PSVR the one wich has the least SDE

but it has big pixels

i guess its becouse it has some kind of diffuser

[tired tree]

yeah

[wicked oak]

Vive is by far the most SDE

then Rift, wich has a tiiiiny bit of SDE, and then psvr wich has no SDE

[jaunty shell]

I think that's because it has the biggest screens

[tired tree]

its because of the lens

[jaunty shell]

that too

[wicked oak]

no, its becouse of the diffuser i think it has. The pc vr headsets dont have it

[tired tree]

they don't prevent it as much as oculus, thats why they both have different reflection artifacts

talking about rift vs vive

[wicked oak]

another important thing. Im slightly nearsighted

[tired tree]

the psvr is def the diffuser

[wicked oak]

not much, but i use glasses to watch TV for example

on the Vive, i focus at 100%

no issues

on the rift, its like 95%

on the pure edge beetween seeing perfect and not

[tired tree]

did you set eye relief on your vive too?

[wicked oak]

and on the PSVR i need the glasses

yes, everything properly set up

Vive is the one that focuses the best for me

rift is very slightly out of focus, and PSVR is way out of focus

i guess their focal points are at different distances

the closest being the vive

[tired tree]

you know about the eye relief right?

[jaunty shell]

isn't the vive's focus at infinity or something ?

[tired tree]

its supposed to help wit hthat

but yeah the focal point is different between them too

[mighty carbon]

I really think gen1 is a solid platform to be used for years to come

Just needs apps/games

And someone needs to build a small cheap VR ready PCs to be bundled with Rift

Kinda like consoles

Still need a good software library

[full junco]

definitely not "for years to come"

its a year old now and we will surely see the next gen within the next year

and then no one wants to use those gen1 headsets any more

[mighty carbon]

Who is going to buy more expensive gen2, when people can't afford gen1?

[full junco]

a lot of people can afford it as you see if you look at how many units were sold

those same people would likely buy gen2

[jaunty shell]

enthusiasts, pros, you name it

[full junco]

and even more that waited for better quality than what gen1 offers

and devs working on games will probably get it for free anyways, so its not an issue for devs

[mighty carbon]

If gen1 owners buy gen2, then maybe they can drop gen1 price for wider adoption

[jaunty shell]

that's how tech goes

[mighty carbon]

Lol, it's an extremely tiny market right now

As you can see not whole a lot of AAA are going into VR because of that

[jaunty shell]

Takes time to make AAA games

Bethesda, Ubisoft, EA, there's already a few of them preparing AAA VR stuff

[full junco]

HTC said the vive gen1 was really profitable for them already, and that's the only thing that matters

[wicked oak]

they get much higher profit per vive sold than oculus

there is no way to deny that Vive cost is lower than oculus cost, yet vive is selling more expensive

and they arent bleeding money with the store and game sponsoring like oculus is doing

[full junco]

why is vive cost lower than oculus cost? I get that oculus is spending a fortune for game sponsoring, but if you just look at the hmd hardware, why should the oculus cost be more?

[jaunty shell]

FB/Oculus always said that the margin on the Rift was quite low, and they intend to earn money on content for starters

but that was a year ago, what about now ?

[mighty carbon]

Year ago is too short of a time

[mighty carbon]

Lol, some dev on the forums said he tried VR and wasn't impressed at all (asking why Epic works on VR stuff more than on any other aspects of the engine)

How jaded do you have to be to not get blown away by VR?! O.o

There was an article about why mainstream gamers hate VR so much. I haven't read it and now I can't find it :(

[full junco]

can you quote where he said that?

[mighty carbon]

Go to UE4Roadmap thread and see it

[full junco]

I read that and I think he never said that

thats why I asked you to quote it

[mighty carbon]

Are you blind?

"I have tried it in person on the oculus rift.
I was not impressed at all"

The very last post where he replied to me

[full junco]

ok, I didnt read his last post 😄

[mighty carbon]

😒

[tired tree]

its people man, he doesn't get VR, you don't get FPS's

opinions differ

[mighty carbon]

I like FPS, that's all I play. Just not military shooters.

It's just hard to believe that there are people who don't get VR

It's like I don't know anyone who doesn't like movies

[pearl tangle]

htc manufactures all the stuff themselves and they have the whole ecosystem in place for manufacturing and distribution. oculus didn't/doesn't have any of that

[tired tree]

i would think of VR to him as more of a platform

so in the world of movies, he doesn't like epic scifi's but enjoys adam sandler comedy's :p

[mighty carbon]

Haha, this is a good one 😂

[mighty carbon]

has anyone tried https://www.oculus.com/experiences/rift/1480133245392512/ ?

is it any good ?

also, http://bgr.com/2017/04/25/galaxy-s8-vs-galaxy-note-8-design-render-omg-need/

"The South Korean electronics giant announced Monday morning that combined Galaxy S8 and S8+ pre-orders out-sold Samsung’s previous-generation Galaxy S7 and S7 edge by 30%."

Also wondering if Note 8 will offer new Gear VR with AR capacity

@pearl tangle any rumors swirling around by chance ? 😃

[full junco]

how much does it break immersion if you are in a VR game with intense rain without feeling the rain at all?

I would imagine its kinda bad

[mighty carbon]

Well, what if you are wearing some kind of suit in VR ?

Alternatively you can add sprinklers to your room to spray mist ;)

[full junco]

even in a suit you feel the rain, it has kinetic energy

[vagrant mantle]

Hey everyone, is it possible to attach third person character with the camera at head?

[mighty carbon]

Oh come on.. you are over thinking it @full junco

[full junco]

@mighty carbon I dont think I am

anything where what your eyes see doesn't match what the rest of your body feels reduces immersion a lot

[mighty carbon]

You don't feel anything playing non-VR games either, yet there are games with wind, rain, etc. You also don't feel bullets hitting you either.

[full junco]

you cant compare regular games with VR

[mighty carbon]

I mean, in VR

[full junco]

you talked about non-vr games with wind, rain etc

and not feeling bullets is an issue, thats one of the reasons why I dont like shooter in VR

[mighty carbon]

I played theBlu and RR last night. Didn't feel water touching my skin, did the feel current created by whale, didn't feel robots grabbing me, didn't feel bullets hitting me. Yet, that did the matter at all.

And didn't feel temperature change coming from the shade to the sun

If you worry about all that, might as well quit VR dev for entertainment and do archviz

[full junco]

I also turn on a fan when playing in outside areas in VR, that definitely helps with immersion 😄

[mighty carbon]

Bah, you are something else

[full junco]

damn, thats a good idea... I need to give my game an API so that everyone can connect their fan with the game and then when wind changes in the game, the fan is making that change appear in the real world 👌

so simple and yet so effective

[mighty carbon]

You do that sir

[full junco]

maybe I will find fan manufacturers that wanna cooperate with me once my game is one of the most played VR games. then they can advertise their fans as compatible with my game

I really like that idea :)

[tired tree]

fans were already being made for VR

saw a few kickstarters for them awhile back

[full junco]

nice

[mighty carbon]

Like with everything else, VR accessories fail if they don't come from the original manufacturer

[glossy agate]

Saw a video on hot and cold simulating touch controllers from Facebook. Think they are a ways out though because they were prototypes made from cut up Pepsi cans.

I think instead of haptic suits, they should work on sensors in the headset to send out small pulses to trick your brain into thinking you are being touched somewhere else. Like the opposite of those prosthetics that work on outgoing pulses.

[mighty carbon]

Well, I mean when you get out on the sun, it's not that your hands feel it, whole body does

[glossy agate]

Yeah, that's where the head pulses would come in

[mighty carbon]

Having sensors in controllers might help perhaps, dunno

Heat/cold sensors that is

But, there still need to be a ton of good games / experiences for VR

[glossy agate]

Yeah, but I think they worked the hand ones off of using some type of pulsing also for the trick, because it doesn't have an actual refrigeration unit built in.

Yeah, it's all probably a ways off. Especially if you end up telling people you are going to send pulses into their brain haha. Probably scare the shit out of them if they don't understand it.

[mighty carbon]

Ah

No peltier sensors?

[glossy agate]

I'll find the video, I don't know much about that type of stuff.

https://youtu.be/HNXONW1MTRM

[tired tree]

Mmmm, this is weird, I am getting different packed sizes from FVector_NetQuantize depending on if I let it replicate itself, or if I manually write it packed to the archive with the exact same settings

[sturdy coral]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afodIcU_vK4

not a lot of new stuff being covered

they did mention 4.16 should be coming out in the next day or so

and that what is in github now should be the same as the initial release

on the question of whether rift costs more to make than vive who knows? vive weighs the same now, has a camera, has rechargable lithiums instead of AAs, and has moving parts in the base stations

rift has many more custom parts and all the cloth stuff

the lenses are a little more complicated too

[full junco]

@sturdy coral well it was already known that 4.16p1 will be released this week

and if he said that what's on github now will be 4.16p1 then thats stupid to say, since constantly new commits are added to the 4.16 branch

the last one 8 minutes ago

another one 12 minutes ago

then 34 minutes ago

[sturdy coral]

@full junco ah weird I don't know what he meant by that then, they basically said they were doing the build now

maybe those were last minute and they had to restart, or they just won't make it til 4.16 p2

I might have heard them wrong though

[mighty carbon]

What's new in 4.16 for VR?

[full junco]

everything

[mighty carbon]

O.o

[full junco]

ok, not everything

all sdks are updated I think, so everything is kinda "new" 😛

[mighty carbon]

Would we be able to have lush foliage in VR with 4.16?

[sturdy coral]

I don't think there are any changes related to that (except maybe not showing different LODs to different eyes)

4.15 added alpha to coverage to the forward renderer which was probably a bigger boon to foliage than anything in 4.16, don't know for sure though

[mighty carbon]

I see

[sturdy coral]

@mighty carbon one of the big changes is the VR editor, should have all the stuff they showed at GDC

I'm not 100% sure if it will have the geometry editing stuff yet

[mighty carbon]

I see.. I am not sure VR Editor is a must have tool

[sturdy coral]

yeah I haven't tried the new version of it but I never got much use out of the old one

it was too easy to accidentally move a mesh without noticing

and screw up your map

[full junco]

and I dont have any maps where I could create anything in the editor, so I completely dont care about any vr editor stuff 😄

[sturdy coral]

I am excited for the new thing that lets you eject into simulate

[full junco]

oh, that works?

[sturdy coral]

yeah, I'm not sure it lets you do the most useful thing though

[full junco]

was always something I missed

[sturdy coral]

which is use the overview pane to see dynamically created objects

helps so much with debugging

[full junco]

why shouldnt you be able to use that?

[sturdy coral]

I'm not sure you can actually eject or it just lets you simulate on its own.. hopefully eject

[icy dirge]

Guys, a few quick questions

Is it possible to have the game work with deferred mode unless it's run in VR mode?

Have ti use Forward in that case

[sturdy coral]

nope, unless you use the limited forward renderer

[icy dirge]

How viable is that?

[full junco]

no, it has to be either deferred or forward

the limited forward renderer doesnt support anything, its not an option at all

[sturdy coral]

I think they mentioned they use the limited one in paragon

on some weird platform or something

[wicked oak]

i really need 4.16

been waiting for it

[full junco]

download it

[wicked oak]

it has some stuff i quite need for ps4

sure

[icy dirge]

I've been on 4.16 for about a month now

[wicked oak]

btw @icy dirge you cant

[full junco]

its not like waiting for the preview has any benefit for those that know how to use source

[wicked oak]

forward or deferred is actually compiled on the shaders

[icy dirge]

Gotcha

[wicked oak]

so you cant do it on a packaged game

[sturdy coral]

what I'm worried about is them breaking binary compatibility on a uasset

I always wait on the first .0 release to really migrate beyond experimenting

[icy dirge]

So how viable is deferred for VR actually? Assuming the usage of MSAA as opposed to TAA

[wicked oak]

its fine

[full junco]

I didnt update to 4.16 yet because I know I will have a million merge conflicts to solve and I'm really not looking forward to it 😄

[wicked oak]

its a set of tradeoffs

[sturdy coral]

@echo flax the mentioned your game on the stream

[wicked oak]

Forward has the issue of having to render the world twice

for the depth prepass

it also is buggy with shadows, and doesnt support fancy postFX

so no SSAO for example

[full junco]

I am using deferred

because of SSAO

[wicked oak]

but, on the other hand. Forward has a considerable speedup from deferred if you arent drawcall bound

[icy dirge]

Oh, perhaps more importantly - all of the neat DitherTemporalAA opacity mask effects I use in my game would completely go to shit if I switch to MSAA from TAA?

[wicked oak]

and msaa is glorious

yes

they will

[icy dirge]

damn

[full junco]

yeah, you couldnt use those

[wicked oak]

problem with TAA in VR is that it blurs EVERYTHING

quite a lot

[full junco]

well, you can tweak it

[wicked oak]

ue4 taa is not sharp at all

its really blurry

[full junco]

its not really blurry after you tweaked it

its quite fine

[wicked oak]

what tweaks. im interested

[full junco]

mostly the current frame weight

increasing that helps a lot

[sturdy coral]

if you tweak it to lessen the effect of history though doesn't that make dither temporal AA stuff work worse?

[wicked oak]

i moved to Forward on my game

and turned on msaa

[full junco]

it makes stuff appear more aliased, but TAA is so effective that I dont think its an issue

[wicked oak]

its greatness

msaa just looks incredible in vr

[mighty carbon]

I assume one doesn't need more blurring with current resolution in VR.

[sturdy coral]

msaa looked bad with some tessellated ground materials I was using