@full junco have you played Art of Fight? It's multiplayer Counter-Strike in VR. That's my current favorite VR game but it suffers from the lack of players issue though.
#virtual-reality
storm vortex
I feel like the game regressed in their recent update visually, but the controls in it are cool. Basically like Skiing. You grip the world around you and drag it to move around. If you flick you can kinda slide yourself.
full junco
why are there so few players?
a good VR game is surely bought a few thousand times a least?
storm vortex
I think because of other games and not enough players. Onward seems to be the really popular one.
When I join usually only between 4- 8 people are playing
full junco
I guess I should try that onward game then
I just usually have 0 motivation to play any other VR games than mine
storm vortex
Onward visually looks really good and is polished I think. I'm not a fan of gameplay where you sit watching after you die for 5 minutes though.
If it had deathmatch or some faster mode where you respawn I'd be more into it. And if I could stomach the movement controls.
I like to try as many as I can to see what works and what doesn't.
full junco
the only game I played before I stopped playing games because I wanted to focus on developing games was arma 3
does anything like that in VR exist?
full junco
oh it is?
storm vortex
super detailed military sim
storm vortex
I found it very difficult. I kept getting either team killed on purpose by griefers or killed because I couldn't see the enemy since the distance on the map is so far.
full junco
oh yeah far distance in VR...
storm vortex
When you die it really sucks because you have to wait for like 4-5 minutes for the round to end
and on a large map where people are sniping it takes forever
full junco
but I'm not really someone who buys early access games
clever sky
I'd recommend keeping up to date with VR games. Seeing what other devs are doing is a good way of gleaning neat ways to do things or a good way of testing mechanics without having to go through the trouble of prototyping them yourself. I mean a lot of these guys have already put in a lot of hard yards testing their stuff to make it work well. So... might as well learn those lessons on the cheap!
full junco
well I bought arma 3 when it was in alpha, but it was clear that is just like arma 2, just better
@clever sky when it means paying for games then it isnt cheap 😛
clever sky
But it's also clear that a lot of devs have no idea what other guys are doing and just do their own things 😛
storm vortex
Yeah, I'm really surprised in how many people in this chat don't seem to try other games.
clever sky
@full junco It's cheap compared to the time and effort learning those lessons yourself.
full junco
I feel like I know everything I need to know for making a great game
clever sky
Fair enough. Well, that's my take on the issue anyway.
storm vortex
VR is so new there's much to be explored
full junco
but I might lose motivation to work on mine if I see that some existing games are better, so I just don't look at them
mighty carbon
lol, you gotta play games even if you are focusing on developing one 😃
breaks up routine and provides some inspiration
storm vortex
@full junco I'm worried that will happen to me if I see someone making the same kinda game.
mighty carbon
I don't have time now at all to play new games 😦 But I fire up some old ones every now and then
full junco
at the moment I'm fully confident in that my game is super awesome
clever sky
@full junco I know what you mean. But the converse is true too. If you see what's out there and it's crappier than yours, you feel great!
storm vortex
In the end though it's not likely someone is going to make the exact game you want to play.
clever sky
You're like... hahaha, my competition is lame! I'm gonna kill it with this!
storm vortex
Like Arizona Sunshine for how new and good it looks, some of the controls are kinda clunky
full junco
I might look at others just before I release mine
storm vortex
I feel like they didn't play other games with ability to pickup stuff
full junco
so that all the hard work is already done and I can't lose motivation for it any more
clever sky
@storm vortex Yeah, Arizona Sunshine is a clear example of - a lot of money and effort... and a lot of jank
storm vortex
They could make a simple fix too, remove toggle to pickup and it would feel like 100% better
and let you actually drop items
clever sky
But they do something that's kinda neat which I quite like.
Which is that even if you have guns in your hands, you can still grab non-gun things
Except for that damn horrible torch.
storm vortex
yeah, I'm kinda mixed on that
Yeah, I'm still on that level. I think the most scary game I have played at this point.
clever sky
I hate that torch so much. Pointing backwards.
full junco
another game with guns? every game you talk about seems to have guns
clever sky
had to take it off my hand and hold the ring.
@full junco haha 😛 VR has a lot of guns?
storm vortex
I play a lot of shooters, I have a bunch of non shooters too though. Vanishing Realms is really great. DCS World
full junco
how great that there are no guns in my game
clever sky
Those three are the triumvarite of VR weapons
storm vortex
Unseen Diplomacy has no weapons, although short is a great VR game I think.
clever sky
I quite like budget cut's pick up weapons as you go deal.
full junco
@clever sky what about axe? I have bow and axe 😀
storm vortex
A bow is just an old school gun though 😉
clever sky
But bow is very common in VR 😛
full junco
but with bow you down just need to press a button to fire, that's nice
storm vortex
I think I have like 4 bow games already. I hope you play the competition
full junco
only other game I played with bow was the thing in the lab
storm vortex
The Lab has my favorite
clever sky
Long bow is the one from the lab.
full junco
I just copied the bow mechanics completely from the lab, feels 100% same
clever sky
Nice nice.
storm vortex
awesome
clever sky
Make sure the haptics are good too.
storm vortex
awesome
full junco
yeah haptics are same like in the lab
clever sky
Biggest bug bear of mine is handle alignment.
full junco
yeah haptics are same like in the lab
full junco
yeah haptics are same like in the lab
storm vortex
Holopoint is fun, but I don't really like it's bow
clever sky
Whoa. what's going on? this room is melting down.
full junco
stuff showing twice you mean?
clever sky
I'm getting repeated messages from me and john.
full junco
yeah discord is buggy I think
full junco
the bow thing in the lab is basically my favorite vr game
clever sky
Well, it works vertically, but the pitch on the bow is off compared to the controller handle
@full junco Yeah, a lot of people love Long Bow. It's such a great starter demo too.
full junco
so why didn't they call it short bow
clever sky
And it's a very short firing weak bow.
Because long bow sounds awesome.
And short bow sounds... short.
hahaha D:
clever sky
Call it... DeathwaveBow
clever sky
0
full junco
eh 0?
storm vortex
There's this space one that feels open world. I'm not too far in it and trying to remember the name.
It looks kinda like no mans sky in the graphics
storm vortex
not elite, its a first person game you are on the ground surviving
clever sky
Solus Project?
storm vortex
yes
clever sky
That's... as close to 'open world' as we have right now.
But that's really a walking simulator.
storm vortex
Yeah I've only played it about an hour or two so I don't know how small it is, but it feels big.
clever sky
Where open world tends to denote a more living world.
storm vortex
Fallout VR will probably be the first one
clever sky
Yeah
Open worlds are just big and expensive.
VR is small and niche right now.
Companies go bankrupt making open world games for traditional game markets.
Some also profit hugely. But there are broken corpses all along the way.
storm vortex
If they took a game like Skyrim and converted it to VR I feel like that could be pretty successful too
full junco
open world means "living world"?
storm vortex
I think of open world as a sandbox game
clever sky
Well, typically it needs stuff in it
full junco
@storm vortex yeah
clever sky
that you can do stuff with and interact with.
full junco
well yeah
storm vortex
or a game with very large levels connected by clever loading screens
full junco
my game is open world I think since there is an infinite open world that doesnt tell you where to go
clever sky
It's supposed to make you feel like you're the protagonist in... an open virtual game world - with little to no restrictions on movement.
wicked oak
they are going fallout4vr and doomvr
where its skyrimvr?
i think its just giving them issues
probably combat
clever sky
Saving it for when the market is more mature.
wicked oak
in fallout4 and doomVR, you can just "attach" the weapon to the controller
clever sky
Then they can milk it once more!
wicked oak
and fire with that
clever sky
Yeah.
wicked oak
a melee sword is way, WAAAAAY harder
storm vortex
yeah weapons (guns)* are low effort
clever sky
The proven mechanics already work well for Fallout 4 and Doom
wicked oak
come on, i ported Deathwave to VR in like 3 days
so thats the amount of effort it takes on the weapons side
i just attached the weapons to the controller, and set the triggers as the motion control trigger instead of mouse
bam, it works
magic and melee and AI that is better for VR is a whole different thing
storm vortex
^
I think that's the part that will need tweaking in Skyrim, sword to sword combat I think is probably difficult to get right
clever sky
Yeah
storm vortex
Lightsabers in VR seem like a great obvious idea, but without the feedback of them clashing I don't know how it would work well.
Lightblade does some haptic feedback when you cross the blades but it takes away some of the effect when they just pass through.
mighty carbon
you can't have any feed back from swords obviously
wicked oak
for what ive heard, Doom has the exact same system i have in DWVR
mighty carbon
so just make it a ghostly sword that goes through the victim and drains life from it
mighty carbon
you can still use vibration feedback in the controllers, but really, just make it ghostly swords
you'd need exosuit to get proper melee feedback
from where I stand, all these attempts to make proper realistic hand to hand combat are futile
so, projectile based weapons and "ghostly" melee weapons (and maybe fists) are the only practical weapons for VR at this point IMO
lol, why did the chat die when I proposed "ghostly" swords ? 😛
clever sky
We're now ghostly chat
noble crater
are we doing sad faces because we're indie devs that can't afford content?
mighty carbon
I mean, it can be low poly content, but with solid art direction
as a matter of fact, art direction and consistency is more important than whether it's low poly or AAA content
but really, that flat shaded low-poly-from-80s content has gotten stale long time ago
noble crater
so even if assets became easier to build (imaginging the amazing vr modelling tools we might have in 5 years), art direction would still be a limiting factor?
mighty carbon
yeah
wicked oak
look, i cant make good stuff even on something like Oculus Medium
mighty carbon
I am not saying everyone should have art directors as Dishonored series or Darksiders or any other stylized AAA game
wicked oak
and i know blender like the palm of my hand, yet i still cant
mighty carbon
then go for consistent style
noble crater
@wicked oak good point, i guess there's "hands-on" art direction and the high level stuff people usually mean by art direction
why aren't there a million art students chomping at the bit for a bit of money and to see their ideas come to life
mighty carbon
that's bs and you know it... Team up with an artist if you can't do it yourself
wicked oak
I have tried
with a track record like the one i have with now 3 games released, ue4 teacher, freelancer for years
mighty carbon
why did it not pan out ?
wicked oak
and STILL cant find an artist to partner with
storm vortex
Very few art students in my classes when I went to school were interested in games or anythign to do with tech. 😦
mighty carbon
o.O
wicked oak
that for the pure arts
ive went to gamedev schools
they are "too busy with school work"
and the ones that just finished their degree want direct payment
as if i was going to pay them more than 200 a month, they are still amateur
noble crater
I wonder what they end up doing that's better paid
storm vortex
Starbucks
wicked oak
i tell them, "look, i cant pay you, but ive released a game in 3 months (deathwave) and recovered the 800 euros i spent on it"
with a couple good artists, i can do good quality games every 3 months or so. Small VR "experiences"
noble crater
so you're offering them 50/50?
wicked oak
and that can easily pay off
yes
that from the profit, not counting the expenses that have to be paid back
mighty carbon
tbh you can't entice people with 800EUR
wicked oak
the thing is "did that alone, in 3 months"
mighty carbon
I would rather not even bring up money to the table
wicked oak
and released it
nah, i dont normally tell about the exact amount, only that it paid more than what i spent on it
mighty carbon
ah, I see
wicked oak
wich is alreaddy better than the mayority of spain indies
but there is just, so little "drive"
upbeat holly
woah dude your price is too low
and you dont value your artists man, you gotta treat them right
noble crater
@naive river 50/50 sounds fair to me
upbeat holly
Yea.
but its like if your only gonna make £800 then nobodys gonna work for that for like 3 months, its not enough to get by
noble crater
true but I assume @wicked oak is hoping one of his games will take off and make more
upbeat holly
and also the students straight out of art school are usually pretty good 😄
but its not a solid business plan
if you want good artists and a quality product you HAVE to pay for it
noble crater
but what options do those art students have?
noble crater
it seems like a game would be a good way to make a name for yourself in a way that actually leads to a well paid job
upbeat holly
There are way better options than earning £200 a month
noble crater
what are they?
wicked oak
exactly. The thing is that with good artists i could make much cooler prototypes/verticalslice and get external funding, or games that get much better
noble crater
@naive river which jobs though, any that pay well AND give them prospects of continuing as an artist
noble crater
@naive river thx. I'm not being purposely naive, I'm not involved in games so this is new to me. I had the mental model of there being massive oversupply of art students, opposite problem for developers
wicked oak
depends on where you are.
In spain, we dont have big/medium developers
its all indies
who have no cash, basically by definition
yet several gamedev schools have popped up
so every year there are a lot of new game artists
upbeat holly
@noble crater its actually different to this
@noble crater There are some good stats out on the net
@naive river artists are in demand, Coders are Highly in demand
wicked oak
btw, alex. What kind of artist you are talking about?
a thing ive heard, straight from the biggest companies on spain, is that they need game FX artists
like Luos
upbeat holly
It didnt say it just characterised them as artists working in the media and entertainment industries
Checking out this at the moment looks awesome
noble crater
I wonder what prospects are like for artists who don't figure out 3d/vfx software (either by choice or because its too difficult)
upbeat holly
=none
noble crater
maybe it'd be easier to hire one of those and train
upbeat holly
thats the job right 😄
noble crater
hmm so it circles back to the original suggestion, if VR can make simpler tools for 3d creation/animation, we increase the pool of qualified artists, and can build our games?
noble crater
if you could vr sculpt and not worry about poly count.. that basically removes all the most difficult bits
upbeat holly
a lot of the content depends on the skill, exp of the artists
Well yea true, but there is still the artistic skills, like design / anatomy etc
mighty carbon
when I look for team members, I look for someone who doesn't need money desperately
wicked oak
i actually think no. You cant get more intuitive than a pencil
mighty carbon
(someone with a day job)
upbeat holly
I think Part timers though arent well equipped for this industry
Mike Seymour had a good series on this (tutorials) called business fundamentals
mighty carbon
well, I've worked with ex-iD Software programmer and ex-Human Head programmer.
so, they are well equipped for the job
upbeat holly
ok great stuff 😄
Yea but they are full timers so....
IF your day job is in industry its ok
mighty carbon
one helped me for free, another one was charging a way less for some UE4 programmers (BP scripters) charge here
upbeat holly
but if you are like working in construction and trying to do it on the side, you might get outpaced by the speed of change
mighty carbon
eeh, neither of them worked in the industry per se at that time
they had experience, yes, but their current jobs weren't in game dev
noble crater
@naive river to clarify when I said VR creation tools might solve the problem - I was meaning in the hands of great artists that dont get existing 3d/vfx desktop tools
upbeat holly
Thats not the norm though
mighty carbon
and usually when you work in the industry, you can't work on side projects.
upbeat holly
@noble crater ok got ya 😄 but you got to learn the tools
mighty carbon
I never worked in the industry myself
upbeat holly
@mighty carbon Not true most the people i know do, I work in the industry
storm vortex
I don't work in the game industry, but I had to get permission to work on a game as a side project for myself.
basically to make sure the company didn't own it
mighty carbon
when you sign up with game dev company, you sign non-compete clause meaning you can't work on any games and anything you make outside of work is property of the company
upbeat holly
Ok your talking about the Coding side, im on the art side so I dont know about that
😄
mighty carbon
hell, some AAA companies make sure that you can't work in the industry for years to come after you leave them
good example - Zeni vs Oculus lawsuit
upbeat holly
Is this coding still?
mighty carbon
art side is the same thing
upbeat holly
Not for me 😃
mighty carbon
good for you 😃
upbeat holly
yup
noble crater
all this depends on whether you're an employee or contractor
upbeat holly
sucks to hear your having problems
wicked oak
@storm vortex thats illegal in most europe
mighty carbon
either way, if a person has a day job where (s)he makes a living, but wants to work on something else on the side, this is a kind of person I'd be looking for
storm vortex
In the US it is very typical for any work you do in software to be owned by the company you work for. Usually it is n your hiring contract. It doesn't make it right though.
storm vortex
Yup exactly
noble crater
its not just any work you do, they own anything you invent
wicked oak
the thing is that they own anything you do ON YOUR FREE TIME
upbeat holly
They own your creative potential....can you put a price on that?
thats mental slavery
some bs
wicked oak
btw, got some data on Spain gamedev, in case you might be interested
storm vortex
I don't understand it either, if you were in construction and built stuff in your free time it wouldn't be an issue. Why is it in software...
wicked oak
There is a big gamedeb association, most are on that
480 companies
65% created the last 5 years
75% less than 10 people
noble crater
@storm vortex apparently because we're "knowledge workers"
we're hired for our thoughts, so they own our thoughts
wicked oak
thats why im going indie and stuff
upbeat holly
all the best to you man
just be careful of the pitfalls
there are some good blog posts out there about indie stuff and the problems
mighty carbon
what country are you from @upbeat holly ?
upbeat holly
uk
mighty carbon
and, they don't have the same kind of contracts there as in US ?
upbeat holly
(i dont work in the coding side, dont know sorry)
Art side has been really positive for me
mighty carbon
btw, if you are contractor and not an employee, then most likely you don't get the same limitations employees get
wicked oak
what do you do @naive river ?
graceful junco
Got any links to those articles, alex?
upbeat holly
@wicked oak 3D generalist type stuff
Asset creation mainly
But I can rig etc also
@graceful junco I dont but I can dig it up
there ya go
I think that was it
graceful junco
thanks
wicked oak
compare it to what i posted above. 75% less than 10 employees
upbeat holly
sorry that wasnt the one but I just googled it
Yea there are some major studios here
wicked oak
What a difference
our issue here is that there is no funding
so all studios have to start from nothing
not only from nothing, but actually they got the government against them
with taxes and stuff
upbeat holly
Yea sucks dude.
wicked oak
ill end up going there, probably in less than 3 years
upbeat holly
maybe you can get a job with a major studio here and then use the funds to create a startup back home?
wicked oak
to UK
mighty carbon
imo that's unwise
I think best bet is to work outside the industry, where you don't get slammed with non-compete clauses, and make games on the side
wicked oak
you also get lots more money
mighty carbon
if you break through - awesome, if not, you still have a job
wicked oak
non-gaming pays more
upbeat holly
I wish I could find those stats man, but apparently coders are high in demand so if you can do it go for it 😄
wicked oak
i get enough for now with VR code freelancing
turns out its in high demand 😃
and given my amount of vr prototypes, half the time i can copypaste most of the stuff
mighty carbon
game dev can be fun, but hearing it from veterans really cemented my belief that if you want normal life - work outside of game dev
or make games yourself (if you are successful)
storm vortex
I don't think I'd ever work for a gaming company. All the stories I hear are horrible and crazy hour work weeks. I had lunch a month or two ago with one of the designers from TellTale games and he was working on 3 projects at a time and pulling 60-70 hour weeks.
storm vortex
I suspect if I worked for someone like Valve doing something I want to work on I probably wouldn't mind as much.
mighty carbon
great job is the one that allows you to have personal life too 😉
60-70 hrs a week won't
hard light
long hours is still pretty standard in games
there are studios that buck that trend, but not everyone does
and yeah, studios will have contracts that says they own everything you produce in your spare time, which is BS
I usually get that written out
full junco
@hard light I think theres no way how something like that would be legal in europe (at least here in germany)
employer has nothing to say about the time outside of the job
hard light
it's pretty standard across the games industry, and that includes Germany
it all comes down to the nature of creative work
it's a crock, and companies will rarely actually enforce it, but they do all cover themselves
to be fair, even if it doesn't specifically say that, a contract will have a no-compete clause they can pull you up on
which means they can argue that anything you do create and release whilst working for them is a competing product and take legal action
so you can't win anyway
full junco
even "those "non compete clauses" are very limited in germany
In Germany, CNCs are allowed for a term up to two years. The employer must provide financial compensation for the duration of the CNC amounting to at least half the gross salary.[31] Unreasonable clauses, for example excluding similar jobs in whole Germany, can be invalidated.
mighty carbon
storm vortex
That guy needs to get a Vive and play Portal Stories VR
mighty carbon
aye
just wanted to point out that build quality is sh#t
also, I don't get how people don't see issues with tracking
probably never tried Vive and Rift before trying PSVR
mighty carbon
dunno what's worse - no positional tracking and no controllers, or half-ass working stuff 😃
full junco
half working positional tracking is still way better than no positional tracking at all I think
isn't motion sickness way worse without positional tracking?
mighty carbon
not if you are standing/sitting in one place
I am very sensitive to motion sickness and if I use Gear VR in swivel chair or stand still and turn more or less precisely (kinda hard to achieve), I don't get sick at all
swivel chair rules with Gear VR
standing is ok, but I prefer swivel chair
full junco
but gear vr isnt really meant for swivel chair I think. its like "use it anywhere". its mobile vr, so its by definition not bound to any existing plane or "hardware" (chair)
vocal maple
how can i change the color of a beam through blueprint?
full junco
@vocal maple probably through a material parameter
mighty carbon
@full junco Gear VR was actually designed in swivel chair 😃 That's what Carmack had in mind to begin with.
full junco
everything is usually "designed in swivel chair" 😛
mighty carbon
well, I mean literally 😃 He mean for people to use swivel chair with Gear VR for 360 deg. experience
Roto VR chair should work wonderfully with Gear VR
vocal maple
@full junco can you point me in the right direction on how to set it up?
full junco
clever sky
This game... has the most confusing VR innovation I've ever seen....
Instead of using motion controllers... you use your smart phone.
pearl tangle
did they not realise that the touch existed or something?
clever sky
No idea!
pearl tangle
all it could have is the same tracking capabilities that daydream controller has so not great
clever sky
But would love to be a fly on the wall in the thought process that put that idea through.
pearl tangle
maybe they expected to launch it 9 months ago or something
im pretty sure they just pulled apart the daydream api stuff
mighty carbon
just that
mighty carbon
like with any of the idSoftware games ported - why on Earth no one implements dash/teleport locomotion !?!
and the chat is dead again 😦
full junco
I forgot, what was dash?
storm vortex
It's what Raw Data uses. It's a high speed teleport without blinking
basically animated from point a - b but really quick where it's like a blur
I bought Doom 3 to try it in VR but haven't gotten around to it yet
I have a feeling its going to be too scary for me to enjoy if its anything like Arizona Sunshines caves
mighty carbon
@full junco dash is when players dashes at high speed from A to B. Teleport is when player instantly moves from A to B.
@storm vortex haven't you played non-VR Doom 3 ?
storm vortex
I played the demo and it was pretty scary when I tried it years ago
made me jump quite a bit anyways haha
Doom 3 came out I think the same year as HL2 and I was too busy making maps for HL1 / HL2 at the time
full junco
I somehow think that whatever valve uses in the lab is the best possible way to do something in vr
and since they don't use "dash"...
storm vortex
I think teleportation is the best method if you want to be most inclusive of people that aren't picky about what they "have" to have for their locomotion.
I think choice is the best solution if the game can allow for it
full junco
choice can be bad in vr though because people might chose something that's bad for them
storm vortex
I think smart defaults with choice
full junco
like, set some setting where they think it would be good, then get motion sickness from it and rate the game bad because they got motion sickness from the game
storm vortex
give a warning about motion sickness from other options
You will always have the stupid person that sets graphics on ultra and then complains they cannot run the game. I think the same will be true with locomotion methods.
full junco
but with VR it seems to be a lot more the case that people are just stupid
storm vortex
You're damned if you do damned if you don't. See people on reddit who complain about lack of onward controls.
full junco
"damn why don't those stupid devs just allow me to use trackpad/WASD/gamepad whatever to move around! I dont want to teleport! stupid devs... would be so simple!!!!"
I read stuff like that too often
storm vortex
yeah that haha
I wouldn't think having multiple movement methods would be too hard to offer for single player, but probably not for multiplayer for balance reasons.
full junco
what I'm wondering currently is whats the best way to keep players move to the center of their play area before teleporting
will they just do it automatically after a while?
clever sky
Allow them to only teleport when they're within X distance of the center
But question is... why would you do that? 😛
full junco
do other games do it like that? I think that would be annoying
clever sky
Alternatively, have HUD that floats in the actor space
Centered on the center of the play space.
Which serves as an anchor to recenter the player when they get lost.
full junco
well the problem is
- player is in center of play area
- player moves somewhere (with his body) to get closer to something
- player teleports somewhere else
- player is at the edge of his play area and can no longer walk in one direction. if player goes back to center of play area, player is no longer where he teleported to, so he has to teleport again
then he has to adjust where he stands and teleport again
clever sky
Oh. In practice that's not a big deal, so long as the teleport is quick and easy.
full junco
it feels annoying to me
clever sky
At least not to me... I use that technique frequently to access more play space then is otherwise possible 😛
i.e. stand in the corner, teleport to the nav mesh limits, then walk further past the nav mesh limits 😄
full junco
currently in my game a use a different system, I only let the player teleport the center of his room, not his actual body location. but I'm not sure if that's good either, since after a teleport he isn't where he teleported to. but he just has to move exactly to the center of the screen to be where he teleported to, so here he automatically moves to the center to be where he wanted to be
you never need 2 teleports to be where you wanted to be while still being in the center of the room
what do you think about that?
full junco
it can happen that after a teleport you are inside some mesh, yeah
clever sky
The current teleport paradigm has been refined
through testing.
Might as well use it
full junco
its still possible to find something that works better 😛
clever sky
True!
Anyway. Because of clipping/disorientation issues, I couldn't recommend that center of room teleport method. Which of course doesn't stop you from pursuing that path!
storm vortex
I'm pretty happy with that VR Extensions plugin so far. It seems to handle collisions really well and takes care of centering teh collision mesh to the players actual position
clever sky
Especially when the established paradigm is - the marker indicator (the circle indicating the player location upon teleport)...
storm vortex
If you try to move your head into a wall for example it slides you back
clever sky
means that's where you'll be, not the center of the room.
If you want to show the room during teleportation, you need to show the room scale boundaries.
Like in the VRTemplate
clever sky
Well, it shows both you and the outline of the room.
Not sure if it's still working in 4.14 TBH
But it's definetly in 4.13
storm vortex
It's more noticable if you have an angle in your room outline if you are using the Vive
storm vortex
im not sure how the rift handles the digital walls
clever sky
But it demonstrates the principle I'm describing.
clever sky
Because the steamVRcomponent doesn't report the bounds properly when packaged.
Caused me a bit of an issue with my own project. I submitted a bug report about it too.
full junco
ok, so its a bug
clever sky
@storm vortex you mean in UE4 or generally?
storm vortex
in UE4
im pretty sure it shows an angle when you teleport if you have an angle in your room, lemme double check
clever sky
Yeah, not sure how it passes the guardian wall data to the game, if it can at all.
storm vortex
ah im wrong its the SteamVR outlines I think I'm seeing because my TV where I'm working is near the edge
mighty carbon
there is a lot of stuff broken in 4.14 😦
full junco
I guess I should try that dash thing and see how it feels
full junco
vive home?
storm vortex
@clever sky what is Vive Home?
clever sky
It's the built in Vive app.
full junco
what app?
clever sky
That you can access through steam
storm vortex
You mean the Steam UI?
clever sky
On the bar with Steam/Desktop/Vive
and then there's an option to launch into Vive home... which will give you a couple of chillax rooms
It's been there since the start.
storm vortex
Is that part of the HTC Software? I never installed that stuff.
clever sky
Yeah 😛
full junco
I just implemented dash teleport into my game, that was way faster than any vive app stuff
storm vortex
yeah I just found that, I never heard of that
full junco
I don't like it, I think after just a few teleports I actually feel that I would get motion sickness
clever sky
So yeah, it shows him dash teleporting.
How fast is the dash?
Needs to be under a certain time frame.
storm vortex
How do you do the dash, is that using the Lerp from point a - b with the blend?
storm vortex
ah, I'm a bad person at this point I have yet to do any lerps yet. All my animations are set world location D: I was just reading how to do smooth transitions the other day
My gun slide looks horrible right now it just snaps from front to back
full junco
are you sure interp speed means that?
storm vortex
Linear interpret to me means calc the point between two vectors given the blend percentage
interpolation*
but I could be way wrong
storm vortex
that's for vectors isn't it?
I'm not sure 😛 I haven't used it yet
I was planning on using the distance between the hand and the weapon for loading mags
or time
clever sky
I assume interp speed means alpha from 0 to 1 in 1/(interp speed).
full junco
not sure if epic ever defined that
clever sky
Well, they use metric, and all their units default towards 1cm or 1 second where undefined.
full junco
should dash be smooth start end end or constant speed?
full junco
the interp speed variable works completely different in the constant interp
clever sky
50ms should capture the majority of users.
Worse comes to worse, use an animation curve to drive the time/alpha value
full junco
yeah, will be better
ok, it was more than 50 ms
have it set to 50 ms now and that feels fine, but its so few time that I don't really see the difference to direct teleporting
clever sky
You can increase it a bit.
50-100ms is the supposed sweet zone.
Mainly it gives some frames of animation
to provide an understanding of directionality when transitioning.
So it helps if you teleport from open to say... in front of a wall.
You're not just like... oh... how'd I get here?
full junco
ok, I guess this is really just personal preference
full junco
currently not when doing the dash thing
clever sky
Yeah. Keep it off for dash.
Makes a huge difference to me between black out blink teleport and dash teleport anyway.
clever sky
200ms? That's huge.
full junco
is it? I never looked at what others do, I just set it so that it feels best
clever sky
Fair enough.
storm vortex
I recall Call of the Starseed having a very long blink fade from black. I think it was a setting you could adjust though.
It's been a while since I have played that though.
full junco
and its a fade, so after less than 50% black you dont really notice the black any more
dash with fade also is fine
clever sky
You like fade huh 😛
Oh well. Best bet is throw all the options at the wall and set the defaults to the one you like 😛
Are you doing any sort of distance limitation for teleportation?
full junco
in an open world game 20 meters might be too small when you want to travel a bit further 😄
not sure how annoying it is to do many teleports after each other
I hope I can limit that distance to something like 10 meters without the teleport getting annoying
might also be good to just limit the general amounts of teleports per 5 seconds or something like that
clever sky
Yeah, a lot of ways to balance these things.
Basically comes down to game design at that point.
mighty carbon
ES3.1 + ASTC textures work wonderfully on Gear VR
clever sky
Yep. Can even have upgrades that affect that stuff.
As part of an RPG/progress system
full junco
yeah, thats a nice extra level of stuff you can do in VR 😄
well, you lose other stuff for that
like "how far can you jump, how fast can you run" etc
clever sky
lose other stuff?
I guess... the ability to balance around consistent speed/range of motion
full junco
lose stuff like the ability to adjust the regular stuff like "how far can you jump, how fast can you run" etc
that stuff that a character normally would improve in a normal game
clever sky
Ah. Well, not necessarily. Just construct a base line you can adjust and bonuses are multipliers
or how normal RPGs do it...
you have inherent character stats and items providing stat bonuses
full junco
not sure what you mean. I talk about you can't upgrade stuff like jump distance in vr because there is no jump your character can do
clever sky
Oh
Unless
You can somehow limit non-contiguous height teleportation
And non-contiguous teleportation distance.
To mimic a 'jump'
clever sky
Is there a way to figure out when you're moving from a continuous nav mesh
to a non-conitnuous portion? Like if you have a platform a few feet above the floor level
the nav mesh will show a break.
full junco
hmm. for ai you would need nav links for that
those should be used in the path calculation then
but a platform like that would only ever be accessible with a jump, so why calculate distance on navmesh to that?
full junco
you only need the navmesh to figure out that it indeed is a separate platform, that it would tell you because there's no path to it
full junco
it obviously only works if your game has a navmesh
without navmesh it's hard to figure out where you need a jump and where not I think
clever sky
Yeah.
clever sky
So when will you be showing off your game?
full junco
I don't know... I really hope as soon as possible
clever sky
Nice.
full junco
I didn't really want it to not be released this year
but it seems to be true for like any software project that stuff is always way later than planned...
clever sky
Yep.
Wanted to get my demo out at the start of this month too.
But... then I had to do all the back end stuff
full junco
and I don't have list of things I want to do or something like that, I just wait for me thinking "ok, it's ready"
clever sky
like start a business, set up bank account, buy website domain/etc/etc
full junco
I did that stuff months ago... and constantly pay for it without using it currently, a bit stupid
one more reason to not wait forever with releasing the game 😀
clever sky
Haha 😛 yeah, that's why I've only bothered to do that now.
Too much experience with paying for shit I don't use!
full junco
😄
full junco
it would be great if ue4s forward renderer would support SSAO before I release my game
wicked oak
My teleport works on navmesh only
that way i can finely tune where th eplayer can go
and those places are reachable by the AI
wicked oak
its on the top sellers list
but im not getting millionaire or similar XD
ohh, just dropped from the list
it already earned more money than deathwave
but its not enough to cover the few expenses i had
after oculus store launch, it will surely be enough to cover the expenses
wicked oak
exactly
clever sky
On your next games
pearl tangle
what sort of sales have you been making on t?
wicked oak
130 at the moment
pearl tangle
there is just too much shit up on there now things disappear from the list too quickly. need to setup proper marketing channels for stuff
maybe that something I should put together. get my company to start working with indie devs to develop out their marketing and media strategies
pearl tangle
put my PR team to actual good use for once instead of just trying to get people exciting about the next shitty Philips product or whatever hah
clever sky
Hehe :p Well. I guess work tends to go to those that can pay for it. Even if they're peddling crapski
pearl tangle
hah yep. will hopefully get to be launching the new Gear VR next year though 😉
mighty carbon
@pearl tangle the rumor has it that new Gear VR will be coming in 2017. True or false?
mighty carbon
Next one won't be AR, but supposedly all around better Gear VR (who knows what that mean, maybe just a better face foam 🙄)
I'd like a bit higher FOV, maybe a few extra buttons next to TouchPad, positional tracking in one way or another, and more powerful S8
Btw, AR could be just proper utilization of phone's camera. It works now, but too slow.
wintry escarp
inside out tracking?
I really hope they don't make all s8 edge phones and remove the headphones
mighty carbon
I'd settle for outside tracking if it was old as a package with Gear VR
If they use Bluetooth 5, they can. There is enough bandwidth for spatialized HRTF audio .
Are you Edge hater? :)
wintry escarp
too many cracked screen posts are from edge users, no matter how it falls its more likely to land on the screen
I tried an edge first, just seemed gimicky
wintry escarp
i wouldn't be bothered about losing the home button
mighty carbon
The rumor has it will not have RGB matrix. S8 supposedly will have same'ish screen Note 7 had
It's full HDR, but still...
wintry escarp
wasn't rgb supposed to fix a lot of the fuzziness in vr?
its time to pick one of them for VR and give it a better screen at a cost
mighty carbon
Right, or 4k pentile
wintry escarp
id pay $50 more for a system that allowed it to function like a rift
a data port to connect it directly to pc
90hz screen....sorted
the screens clearly exist, rift and vive are using them
wicked oak
no they arent
those are not mobile phone screens
they are 2 separate square/ish screens
wintry escarp
but theyre small screens with high res
only separate to reduce the screen wastage between the eyes aren't they?
the gear vr even has a port, just improve it and add hdmi
i wonder if oculus would block that
would hammer sales of rift
wicked oak
they are separate so they can be moved for different IPD
@wintry escarp it wouldnt hammer the sales of the rift
gearvr has no positional tracking
is DK1 with higher resolution
and no cords
wich is its main selling point, you can rotate all you want with it
wintry escarp
id be fine with a gearvr with access to my pcs power
i will hold out for rift2 now
eye tracking and fingermabob tracking
that thing that see your real hands
we can all have minority report desktops, for 1 day until we realise how tiring that is
any of you got an Amazon firestick?
pearl tangle
yeah no benefit to anybody to use the phone as a desktop vr device
mighty carbon
why spend $900 on the phone + Gear VR, when you can spend $800 on Rift + Touch. Either way you'd need equally powerful PC.
and next Rift might be mobile anyway
wintry escarp
most people need the phone anyway
mighty carbon
for me personally, once Rift goes mobile, I don't see a use for Gear VR. Maybe if I was in EU/Asia where you get to ride a lot of public transportation for a prolonged periods of time, I'd use Gear VR to consume media. In US we mostly drive (and I don't fly much either), so no use for Gear VR in that context really.
yeah, but you can get decent $300 Android phone and be happy
pearl tangle
i used to use my gear vr on planes when i was doing shorter local flights but got sick of lugging it around and taking up a lot of space in my bag
wintry escarp
inside out tracking is cheaper than multiple lighthouses isn't it? once they get working
pearl tangle
I have flown 120000+ miles so far this year...
mighty carbon
so yeah, with mobile Rift (hopefully it can be used as normal Rift too), I wouldn't buy another $800 smarphone, ever
wintry escarp
but but .. what about angry birds 4
wintry escarp
i had an ipod for games
fat lot of use for super Mario run 😦
it also spared me the pokemon go craze
pearl tangle
@wintry escarp so you just swim overseas when you have to travel somewhere?
pearl tangle
hah well for those of us who do travel there isnt really any better less polluting options
wintry escarp
if its less than a few miles i walk, otherwise i get bus
I'm supposed to go to berlin next year, deciding between bus or flying
bus takes 8x longer but i don't have to be around 1000s of people at airports
pearl tangle
hah just crammed in a bus with dozens for 8x longer
wintry escarp
but I'm sitting, i hate being around people just wandering around like zombies. just do what you came out to do and go away
i have avoided all xmas so far to avoid such crowds
its gives mesplitting headaches
why do people go shopping with no plan? decide what you want...get it...go home
not a people person
always holding back the urge to scream "get out of my fucking way you snail, move"
real needle
is there any way to simulate VR in the editor, without having any of the vr devices?
"VR Preview" is greyed out https://i.gyazo.com/dbef4c5350f81ad8f682e66a38521592.png
real needle
which one should be enabled?
to be clear, i don't have any of the VR devices. I'd like the editor to simulate one for me
wintry escarp
simpleHMD works
real needle
that works, thanks
wintry escarp
googleVR works and is better
real needle
yep, it's better, thanks
wintry escarp
my display is still broken from that shadow test i did, is there a way to flush all buffers/caches from a project?
real needle
anyone got the rift boundary component working in cpp?
clever sky
Tried some Oculus Medium today (finally. Support came through with codes a week after my touch activation).
Oh man... so much good stuff in there.
But also, dammit, the limitations are so obvious and glaring!
So wish it could go back and forth seamlessly between standard 3D apps and VR sculpting.
wicked oak
just wait till zbrush VR
clever sky
Dunno how long that'll be.
wicked oak
with the new blender 2.8 rewrites. a VR blender will be possible
clever sky
But the biggest problem with Medium is that you gotta navigate into the menu to switch between add and erase.
wicked oak
dunno if someone will try to implement it
clever sky
like... come on, this should be on some sort of button. Don't make me go back and forth betwen a menu (4000ms) to do something that should take 100ms
The number of tools needed for 3D operations is staggering as any one that's used those packages can attest to.
There's no fluency in 3D modelling without a fat stack of hotkeys.
But they don't even do the courtesy of having an open pane to let you select betwen stuff. you gotta press a button, use the other hand, then go back to the stuff you're working on.
So... a good 3D VR package will come down a lot to design that helps mitigates its fundamental limitations.
Also, the other big probs with medium is low low resolution.
And finally... some things are much easier in VR, other things much harder.
wicked oak
like a straight line
clever sky
I need to be able to combine all the advantages!
Well kinda. They have a straight line tool.
More difficult is correctly proportioning things in real 3D space.
Need to be able to sketch out an armature in 2D
and then add clay to that.
well... 2D display 3D.
Or at least on a flat plane!
The armature technique is actually how real sculptors work.
wintry escarp
motorsep i got that shadow peturb thing to work, it looks like shit
clever sky
Ah well. Medium is pretty much the Windows Paint of VR sculpting. So... can't expect too much I guess!
Can't wait to be able to rig and pose models in VR. Thread Studio with its poseable mannequin was incredibly intuitive.
wintry escarp
ok, it look fine....you just have to remake all the lightmaps
inferior to normal settings though
mighty carbon
There is no better precise tool than mouse
so all that VR stuff isn't going to catch on for mass production
clever sky
That's a very silly statement.
mighty carbon
not really
mighty carbon
right
clever sky
You know what's better for tracking objects in 3D space in multiple degrees of freedom? A motion controller.
mighty carbon
no, ruler isn't as good as mouse
are you an artist? I am, and I can tell you I tried a lot of stuff for 3D modeling and none beats kb+mouse
clever sky
Point is, each tool has its own strengths and weaknesses. Moreover, intelligent design can mitigate a lot of weaknesses and shore up strengths.
I am actually.
Well. I'm a designer with art background.
KB and Mouse is effective because it's been the primary computing input paradigm for many decades now.
mighty carbon
there is no physical feedback in VR, so it's not the same as sculpting using Wacom
clever sky
And that software packages have been developed around them.
mighty carbon
motion controllers are so rudimentary compare to pen and hands
clever sky
It's like commenting on the inferiority of the computer (KB/M) as an art tool while looking at MS Paint.
mighty carbon
there is no physical feedback, and that alone make VR inferior when it comes to making art
sure, there some some top notch artists that are so good they don't need it
clever sky
You don't get physical feedback from kb and mouse either.
mighty carbon
but generally, it's not as robust and will not be for the foreseeable future
you don't sculpt with kb+mouse
clever sky
Point is, you get pros and cons as with all things.
Pro of sculpting in VR - no weight, easily reposition and scale.
Material and tools out the wazoo.
mighty carbon
no weight when you use pen - it's feather light
clever sky
Con - can't push the material around properly.
clever sky
At least with regards to Medium. Someone else will come along with a more professional sculpting/modelling tool
and it'll be great.
You have your hand position
and the trigger push back
mighty carbon
maybe is you could sculpt in VR with you hands, literally (using Manus VR for example), it would be different
odd garnet
Has anyone found out what buttons 5-8 do?
clever sky
You have sound effects too.
Also a form of feedback.
@odd garnet That's for future proofing.
odd garnet
on the vive
clever sky
in case they release a motion controller with an ass load of buttons in future.
mighty carbon
I have no doubt some artists trained in VR from day 1 will become as proficient in it as traditional artists. But for the rest of us having to use pen is natural. Using controller is like using a stick with a pen attached to it
clever sky
It doesn't take a life time to become profecient with tools.
odd garnet
Thanks guys, I wanted my right hand controller to have 8 different "abilities/spells" but it seems im limited to 4
mighty carbon
only 10,000 hours
clever sky
There's a learning curve and after that, the learning curve is about knowledge of the subject matter that you're creating.
odd garnet
@clever sky If DnD has taught me anything, you just need a nat 20
mighty carbon
some people never learn Blender
odd garnet
Dude Blender is amazing
wicked oak
all 3d tools are
mighty carbon
so, a lot of pro-artists hate Blender's UI and it's not really anything entirely different
wicked oak
thats becouse they learnt 3dmax or maya first
clever sky
Pretty much.
odd garnet
Maya is good because UE4 has that rigging and animation software
mighty carbon
so, why bother re-learning VR scultping when you can make better art using traditional tools, with less time and less price ?
odd garnet
too bad its like thousands of dollars
mighty carbon
I learned 3DS MAX first. I actually spent a good few years in MAX and hated Blender for about 1 month I learned its way. Now I love it 😃
clever sky
Some users won't bother relearning. But some users will take to it because it's a much more natural match to the task of 3D sculpting.
i.e. 3D input and display for 3D task
and others still will come to 3D sculpting fresh
mighty carbon
you don't have to take my word for it - read up the forums
Blender's new UI has been around for like years
and still most artists (pros nonetheless) bash it and don't learn it
clever sky
Your blender argument isn't really an accurate analogy
mighty carbon
it is
clever sky
It'd be more like if there were 2 VR packages
and 1 was dominant
It's like... why did people bother learning Z-brush when 3DSMax was dominant?
wicked oak
becouze zbrush is best at what it does
clever sky
Because it let them do something different in a new way and was much more efficient at those tasks.
mighty carbon
you have MAX/Maya/ZBrush, it's a robust tool set that gets job done in no time. Now you get VR sculpting that is really only good for sculpting (well, not really good either). Why go into VR sculpting? It's awkward, it's less robust, it doesn't get the same results.
clever sky
That's true currently.
mighty carbon
VR art is less efficient
clever sky
And that's because the tools are in their first generation.
If that's what you're arguing, then we've been speaking past each other.
Because I'm arguing that VR 3D modelling has significant potential...
mighty carbon
I see sculpting / painting in VR for fun, for personal ... art. In no way VR will replace 3D sculpting with pen, for commercial production.
clever sky
with the right tools (right design).
mighty carbon
and it will never be used for 3D modeling
you can screenshot this and revisit in 5 years from now
it will still stand true 😉
clever sky
What are you going to do? Pay me?
This is basically you asserting no without providing compelling arguments for your case.
i.e. you're arguing that KB/M paradigm is the most efficient paradigm possible.
mighty carbon
it is, for 3D modeling
clever sky
And I just don't see why the strengths of that paradigm can't be borrowed for use in VR as well.
e.g. planar views can be replicated in VR space.
real needle
how about you guys stop arguing about this, and make some awesome stuff instead 😄
mighty carbon
you know what I can see? I can see using VR HMD with virtual desktop, and modeling with kb+mouse in true 3D space
not with motion controllers
clever sky
KB is good for access to huge amount of hot keys.
But mouse is not necessarily better than motion controllers.
Given that you can use motion controller as a pointer just as efficiently.
But also as a 3D spatial navigator.
mighty carbon
no, you can't
clever sky
Strengths of KB hotkeys can be somewhat mitigated by use of a clever tool/palette system
mighty carbon
it's not as precise as mouse
wicked oak
but its 3d
mighty carbon
(well, you can, but it's not good)
you need high dpi mouse to fluently manipulate vertices
clever sky
Look motorsep. Go get yourself a Vive or a Rift with touch first. You don't have actual experience with these things.
It's easy as hell to point with a motion controller.
mighty carbon
I can see how crude all that is in videos of UE4 VR Editor
I'll eat my hat if Epic artists model stuff in VR for Paragon and Robo Recall
too bad they don't do that
clever sky
The VR editor in UE4 is also early/prototyping stuff.
While the sort of UX that is in normal UE4 is based off decades of KB/M usage.
Anyway, I'm not going to keep arguing this with you - but if I remember this and you in 5 years, I'll be happy to make you eat some crow 😛
One last comment - as an example of something that can be done much easier in 3D space; 3D splines. For hair and animation tracks.
That kinda shit is horrendous on a 2D display/input paradigm.
There are some people that have already used tiltbrush to speed up their workflow in these areas.
mighty carbon
in 5 years we'll get back to this subject 😉
full junco
@wicked oak just 130? I think that's really few... I don't know numbers from any other vr game though
is that normal?
wicked oak
150 now
these are at 8.5 dollars/euros
well, yes. In fact, most games dont get to this amount of sales
wich is why i got on the "top sellers" list
only the bigger games, who actually get a following, get much more sales than this
the biggest of all is raw data wich passed 1 million in sales
clever sky
dollars revenue, not units 😛
wicked oak
this averages to around 600-700$ that ill get to my pocket
barely enough to pay the couple freelances i hired for sounds and other stuff
full junco
but the vive alone was sold more than 150.000 times
full junco
there are so many people that have a vive and wanna play games. let's say they buy a game once a week, then.... math....
mighty carbon
sounds like PR is critical in VR too :/
wicked oak
yes it is
mighty carbon
You'd think people follow everything in this new market
full junco
10 a day?
wicked oak
thats why those indie games that go huge are multiplayer
like Onward, bullets and more, or art of fight
full junco
can't remember that minecraft started with multi-player
wicked oak
im prototyping the mech game, its very probable it will be my next game. Multiplayer games tend to work well on the VR market
it didnt, @full junco
but it was added early in development
mighty carbon
I don't know about multiplayer
there are plenty of indie and AAA games with dead MP
if it doesn't catch on immediately, it doesn't catch on
full junco
well I haven't played your game @wicked oak so I don't know how awesome it is
full junco
but if it's a great game and only sold so few times then I'm disappointed by the vr market
have any major youtubers covered it yet?
wicked oak
no
the only site that has a thing on it its UploadVR, wich has it on an article about the games released this week
full junco
are there any major youtubers that care about vr?
wicked oak
yes
full junco
do you expect they will try your game at some time?
wicked oak
i sent keys to several places
but doubt it. Its actually a cool game to stream(blowing skeletons with the shotguns and stuff), but they wont even know it exists
AAA companies arent getting into VR for obvious reasons
its too small of a market
thats why oculus comes and just pays them upfront
full junco
with 150k vives it's not small