virtual-reality

[full junco]

the old one sucks now

[opal bobcat]

yeah i want a 1080ti

[wintry escarp]

we need amd to be real competition to nvidia

[storm vortex]

and with intel!

[full junco]

then buy amd

AMD can only compete when they have money

[wintry escarp]

buys the protest card, back to Matrox

[storm vortex]

at least with the Matrox you can do like 20 displays

[opal bobcat]

matrox is nice for that

[full junco]

Nvidia can cheat with stuff like 970 and people will still buy it

that's not good

[storm vortex]

That's because AMD's stuff is so much more worse

[full junco]

it's not so much more

it's slightly

and just because of software

[storm vortex]

I bought a GTX960 (regrets) when that 970 business happened because the AMD cards were crappy. I upgraded to a 980Ti right before I got my Vive and luckily caught the 90 day upgrade window to the free 1080 ❤ EVGA

[wintry escarp]

free?

[storm vortex]

yeah

[full junco]

it's a huge problem that some people think amd is "crappy"

[wintry escarp]

i thought you paid the difference

[storm vortex]

EVGA does a 90 day step up program. So if a new card comes out after you buy one you just pay shipping and price difference. They send you the new one. For me to go from 980Ti->1080 was just $15 in shipping.

[full junco]

AMD is behind with stuff like multi res shading, and power efficiency, but that's it

and currently they don't have high end gpus

but that was different before 10xx release

[clever sky]

AMD needs to stay around to light a fire under Nvidia's and Intel's ass... but problem is those two companies are very good at shutting out competition through anti-competitive means D:

[wintry escarp]

noise and heat put me off amd, i run everything stock with good cooling to keep it as quiet as possible

[full junco]

@clever sky yesh

I like to overclock everything as much as possible

[storm vortex]

Thankfully all the consoles and Apple are using AMD right now to give them some money

[full junco]

a gpu has to eat at least 300w or it isn't a gpu

[clever sky]

Also Arizona Sunshine devs rescinded their ill-thoughout exclusivity for i7

'it was supposed to be a reward to the people that heeded our recommendation guys!'

'please believe us!'

[full junco]

well maybe I should make my game exclusive to i7 lol

it will not run good on CPUs with less than 8 threads

[clever sky]

If I ever take a money-hat, I'll straight up say - I took a money hat! woo!

[wintry escarp]

i though they were blocking older i7s

[clever sky]

And then start a kickstarter to a value exceeding the cost of the money hat.

[wintry escarp]

being douchebags

[clever sky]

Then when gamers are all - why'd you take the money hat, I'll say... because it let me make a better game then without it.

[full junco]

CPU progress is even less than gpu

horrible

no idea how we should ever be able to run 8k vr

[clever sky]

Problem is... when you don't even get the money hat, gamers aren't going to buy your game more just because it's not exclusive!

[storm vortex]

I have no problem with people taking money for games as long as they are up front about it.

It sucks, but if it pays for the game to happen that's cool.

[clever sky]

Right. And I think that's true for the most passionate/vocal of the community.

[wintry escarp]

why use expensive screens when you could project an image straight into the eye

[clever sky]

They understand economic rationality. They just don't want devs treating them like idiots.

[full junco]

that's not cheaper

somewhere you need to have the pixels

[wintry escarp]

i thought dlp uses spinning mirrors

[clever sky]

The magic leap stuff

[full junco]

still not cheaper

[clever sky]

uses a type of retinal display tech

[full junco]

vr needs to be 8k

[clever sky]

Virtual Retinal display

[full junco]

but no gpu can handle that

[wintry escarp]

a little dlp mirror isa lot lighter than an 8k panel

vr headsets should make you look like a bono fan, not like you have a box stuck to your face

[clever sky]

But yeah, VRDs is essentially fiberoptic steered by DLP style mirror motors

Or something to that essence. I can't remember the deets

It was from an interview with Tom Furness on the voice of VR podcast

Any of you guys listen to that podcast?

[full junco]

nope

[wintry escarp]

they all seem to be stuck with the box on the head cos that's what palmer demo'd

[full junco]

I hope vive 2 is announced soon. need 4k and eye tracking.

[wintry escarp]

i saw an 80s VR system

[full junco]

should be doable

[wintry escarp]

it was whacky

[clever sky]

It's pretty good stuff... lets you know what other VR devs are doing and working on...

[wintry escarp]

your whole head went inside it

[full junco]

I guess vive 2 or rift 2 will be announced on gdc

would make sense, right?

[wintry escarp]

no

they will cost reduce versions 1 first to try and grow the market

[full junco]

release 2 and at the same time cost reduce 1

how it's done with all other tech too

[wintry escarp]

vive said they've halved the component count

[full junco]

release galaxy s7 and make s6 cheaper

release vive 2 with 4k and eye tracking and make vive 1 cheaper

[wintry escarp]

but steam also said the steam controller was amazing, apparently its not

[full junco]

they halfed lighthouse

[granite jacinth]

Steam Controller is amazing for some people

I wasn't too keen on it though

[storm vortex]

I Love the Steam controller, but definitely isn't for all games

[granite jacinth]

SUperRobins look pretty nice

one motor instead of two is good for many reasons

[wintry escarp]

why is the lighthouse so big?

[storm vortex]

Rushed to market I think

[wintry escarp]

or is it a lot smaller than it looks

[granite jacinth]

Just because they've reduced components and in essence reduced the price it takes to make them, does not mean that it will trickle down as much as people are hoping

I really doubt it will be 50% pricing next year

[mighty carbon]

I bet v2 of VR HMDs isn't coming for the next 2 years or so

[granite jacinth]

Maybe...MAYBE... 25% if we're lucky... But, I think they reduced the price on Vive $100 for Black Friday as a test

[mighty carbon]

and we already know what Rift 2 might be like

[granite jacinth]

If they saw any sort of big jump in sales because of that price, you may see the new price

If they didn't, they will reduce it once again

another $100 or so

[storm vortex]

They probably wanted to milk all the early adapters first that will pay extra. I know I would have paid more.

[granite jacinth]

To put it in line with OSVR/Rift

Early Adopters always get shafted

[storm vortex]

The first iPhone was the same way. I think it was like $1000 or somewhere near there. I didn't buy one myself though.

[wintry escarp]

not here it wasnt

£399 and been creeping up in price ever since

[storm vortex]

oh you are right, I thought it was more. I just looked up some pricing

http://aaplinvestors.net/stats/iphone/pricing/

I think it didn't use to have as good of a cell phone provider plan discount though

[wintry escarp]

unlocked here

[digital marlin]

I'd like to see the next version of the OSVR

[granite jacinth]

OSVR3.0?

Hmmmmm, who knows

[digital marlin]

Yeah

[granite jacinth]

Probably wireless

like the next bunch

[digital marlin]

yeah that'd be nice

I'd like to see better resolution

[granite jacinth]

?

Resolution is at Rift levels?

[digital marlin]

yep

[granite jacinth]

SO...

[digital marlin]

😉

[pearl tangle]

http://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft-announces-windows-10-arm

[clever sky]

So that's how they're rebranding Windows mobile

Fuck it. We can't crack the mobile phone market, but we can sure as hell crack the mobile PC market!

What's the difference? The difference is one can run full fledged Windows apps*!
*that are compatible with mobile specs.
Yay?

[mighty carbon]

btw, when is MS going to announce VR ? We are in December already 😃

[storm vortex]

That's pretty impressive it runs the games. I wonder if you could connect a game controller to the phone and play games that way. Also RIP battery life

[digital marlin]

meh

[granite jacinth]

Cellular PC has been a thing

But, this is what is going to cause AR to overtake VR

[storm vortex]

AR will be cool when it happens but I feel like we are still a ways off performance and battery wise before it gets as good as VR is now.

For games that is...

If I can wear a light headset that does high quality video pass through with 3d overlayed and not have battery die after 30 minutes that would be pretty cool

[mighty carbon]

I don't see AR being cool for games

[pearl tangle]

microsoft already announced vr a few months back

they are releasing their plans to OEM's. integrating the hololens sensors into a vr headset similar in design to the PSVR headset

[mighty carbon]

@pearl tangle yeah, but they said they will give us details in December (specs and whatnot)

[pearl tangle]

AR games are already quite good, especially if you get the holograms at the magic leap level too

yeah its still early in december. having the full windows 10 on arm architecture opens up quite a few possibilities too

[mighty carbon]

cya ppl o/

[pearl tangle]

http://www.roadtovr.com/vr-headsets-asus-dell-hp-coming-2017-will-run-intel-integrated-graphics/

[clever sky]

Ha... ok.

[pearl tangle]

rather interesting

[clever sky]

So Microsoft doing their own thing.

[pearl tangle]

well all the stuff comes with the embedded hololens inside out tracking in there

[clever sky]

Essentially a mobile-VR without the smartphone kinda deal?

[pearl tangle]

from the pic though it looks like everybody else has a tethered setup, or at least a box separate from the headset itself

[clever sky]

Hopefully to a portable box.

on the belt

or some such.

That's acceptable wireless.

or wired.

whatever.

😛

[pearl tangle]

yeah id say a smartphone sized thing you just chuck in your pocket is a good bet

just need the headset themselves to hurry up and be the size of regular glasses and people will use them all day for sure

[clever sky]

Heh. Need those next gen meta-material optics

I read about Havard designing new lenses

completely flat, using diffraction grates to focus light

Only a narrow wavelength for now.

[pearl tangle]

yeah its not going to take too long for some big shifts in that field now that there is strong demand for it at a consumer level

[clever sky]

Exactly. Havard aren't the only players in town as far as that stuff goes.

[pearl tangle]

seems likely that all those headsets are running something like the intel NUC box at the moment. if its the skullcandy 1 then thats decently powerful for a full integrated box

nah even glass manufactures are 1 of the most trade secret heavy industries in the world

nobody patents any of the techniques or anything so its all kept completely secret, moreso than coke recipe even

[clever sky]

But the coke recipe is more of a marketing thing

then it is a real 'so nobody can guess our formula' thing 😛

Given the simple fact that coke has a variety of tastes!

And I'm not talking about the zeroes, stevias, diets, etc.

[granite jacinth]

TBH, things like this is a good thing

We will get the good from whatever we can

And improve upon it in the next gen

[clever sky]

I mean, the precise formula for the syrup that they make might not have been guessed by their competitors... but the taste delta of coke is variable enough that competitors can get 'close enough' to be 'like coke'.

Such that the only thing that seperates them is... the marketing/branding on the bottle.

[silk lodge]

and that nice pesticide flavoring

[pearl tangle]

hah yep but its a lot harder to have exact tempering techniques and injecting the perfect amount of particular oxides into glass at the exact right time to get the perfect lens

[silk lodge]

My dad has glass charts that he can use to order specific types of glass

it's pretty cool

[pearl tangle]

this microsoft stuff is going to do a hell of a lot more for the industry as a whole than all the other current headsets combined. it's going to start getting it into mass for commercial uses

[granite jacinth]

$300

From CHina

[storm vortex]

I hope they don't pollute the VR market with low quality headsets

[granite jacinth]

SO we can expect ASUS ROG version for $600

[pearl tangle]

the fact that there is the pure AR, pure VR and MR all using the same general hardware and interface gives a lot of options

obviously not going to have the same level of stuff that we can do with the vive and rift for entertainment purposes but opens a lot of options for stuff.

[silk lodge]

did I miss an announcement?

[pearl tangle]

will be interesting to see how apple comes along with their AR stuff in the next 12-24 months. microsofts current jump into hardware again is actually very impressive

[clever sky]

Do we know if the MS VR stuff will at least do positional tracking?

I can dev for it if they have motion controllers.

[pearl tangle]

yeah its all inside out tracking

all the specs have the full hololens capabilities built into it

so full hand tracking capability and spatialization

[clever sky]

I see.

[pearl tangle]

seems like leap motion is doing a mobile thing too now

http://blog.leapmotion.com/mobile-platform/

[clever sky]

That's a pretty good FOV on their camera

[pearl tangle]

definitely an improvement. that was the main problem with the other 1

aside from the pretty shitty tracking quality that is

[clever sky]

Have you tried their stuff since a few months ago?

The orion update I think?

[pearl tangle]

yeah the orion 1 makes a big difference

[clever sky]

Because it's a night and day improvement

But still not adequate for your taste?

[pearl tangle]

but it still loses tracking too easily with a single sensor and they never opened up the API to multiple sensors at all

[clever sky]

I haven't used it that much myself

Only on ummm...

waifu sim.

[pearl tangle]

well when it loses tracking it loses the entire hand essentially. so whatever you were holding is dropped. and with a low field of view you have to be looking right at your hand all the time, which you dont really walk around with your hands in front of your face the whole time for anything

except maybe that 1 where you are grabbing 12 year old girls tits

[clever sky]

Haha.

Well, the software can be worked around.

Instead of registering hands disappear as a drop

just register it as inventory

[pearl tangle]

yeah still doesn't quite keep up with something like lighthouse either way

[clever sky]

True.

[pearl tangle]

maybe with some haptic gloves or something, poking at air with nothing in your hand is always a bit odd

[clever sky]

Yeah. I mean, appropriate visual and audio feedback goes a long way....

but haptics are a nice catalyzer for cementing the tactility of those other cues

i.e. it's easier to associate the audio/visual cues with feeling, if there's already a little feeling to go with it!

[pearl tangle]

yeah having something in your hand makes a big difference still. camera tracking stuff always seemed like a good idea in theory but its just not quite right in reality. same reason the kinect failed

[clever sky]

Well, both hand tracking and motion controllers are substantially more compelling in VR then not.

But the Kinect failed because you can't really make compelling games that people really would like to buy with it.

I mean even basic tasks was a total chore.

Like selecting the next item in a menu or saying ok

[pearl tangle]

so is stuff with gear vr

didn't stop a lot of people using it still. just gotta develop better ways to do things

[clever sky]

Whereas in VR, that's actually a lot easier with camera tracked because of the third dimension.

And in VR... controllers will still allow you to do small repetitive things easier and faster.

But the delta isn't quite as significant as gamepad and kinect camera.

i.e. 10s of ms vs 1000s of ms.

[pearl tangle]

the kinect v2 is pretty decent with its latency actually

same with realsense and tango and leap motion, they are all similar tech

[clever sky]

I don't mean latency though. I mean time to execute a function.

Cancel, accept, left, up, down, right... basic menu navigation.

[pearl tangle]

well if your tracking is perfect then i guess you dont need to hover over the button for 1.5 seconds for something

but yeah it was always too finicky to make shit happen

[clever sky]

With 2D kinect, you had to.

[pearl tangle]

kinect can track in 3D space without any problems

[clever sky]

That's true.

But it's a harder task to represent that depth information to players

With a 2d display

i.e. you're swiping where you think the ball is... but you're not forward enough.

In 3D that mismatch is obvious.

But in 2D, it's not. So kinect basically failed at basic human computing interaction requirements in the primary application in was designed for.

What's funny in retrospect is the amount of hype it had

Given that simple fact! 😛

So much smoke and mirrors to dress it up!

[pearl tangle]

oh yeah when you have shitloads of marketing money you can do some nice stuff

just look at all the magic leap marketing stuff

[clever sky]

4.5 Billion in venture cap raised.

Rony Arbovitz is a master of smoke and mirrors.

That first reveal at TED... legendary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8J5BWL8oJY

[pearl tangle]

$1.4 billion not 4.5 right?

[clever sky]

4.5 valuation now

So... yeah, you're probably right.

[pearl tangle]

not sure how you could have $1.4billion in cash and only be worth $4.5 billion... its insane

[clever sky]

You sell 20% of your company to investors for 1.4 billion

Or 30%

[pearl tangle]

im sure they must have given away at least 75% of the company

its just because they do it in multiple rounds so the actual company growth figures and multipliers are all out of whack

[clever sky]

Yeah true

[clever sky]

Things I learned about the VR community today:
Would rather not see the content, than to see it be a timed exclusive content.

strikethrough

Doesn't know shit about the economics of indy game development

[pearl tangle]

hah did you learn that from the community in here or just the VR community in general?

[clever sky]

Reddit 😛

About the Arizona Sunshine exclusivity debacle.

Lots of angry pitchforks not going down after devs rescinded the exclusivity.

[storm vortex]

The the developers come out and say something?

[pearl tangle]

oh yeah i saw something on that. I don't quite get what they did there. locking just to i7 or something?

[clever sky]

Basically intel paid them to make extra content

they took the money and made it, added it to the game

and told players only i7 players could access it.

A really dumb way of doing it mind you.

[storm vortex]

What they should have done was put an unskipable intel overlay / start image for people that don't have the processor but let everyone access the content

[clever sky]

Players understandably got angry. Backlash, blah blah, then the devs woke up and patched in the fix.

[storm vortex]

then they get their money, intel gets their ads and people are happy

[clever sky]

now it's accessible from everyone.

And they'll probably have to payback intel

[storm vortex]

Intel should have known better

[pearl tangle]

so it was just extra content in there locked only to i7?

[storm vortex]

as should ahve the dev

[clever sky]

Timed exclusive

[storm vortex]

Locked to latest i7s. Even the 4790k I have apparently didn't make the cut

[clever sky]

Dayum

[pearl tangle]

but not the full game, just some of the content or something?

[storm vortex]

And it was announced after people had already bought the game

[clever sky]

@pearl tangle yep

[storm vortex]

It was the "hard" mode with extra weapon unlocks

[clever sky]

Well, it wasn't announced so much as discovered.

[storm vortex]

It sets a bad precedent if we just let hardware manufactures time gate game features or games

[pearl tangle]

weird way to do it. why not just plaster intel i7 all over in game assets or something

[storm vortex]

Yeah that would have been the smart thing to do, or just do a long intel ad in the beginning

[clever sky]

Don't know. Dumb deal the devs made.

[pearl tangle]

well they have been doing that for ages with nvidia and amd. hair fx, turblence etc etc

[storm vortex]

yeah but that is more opt in

[pearl tangle]

game looks decent though actually

[clever sky]

Setting dumb deals aside...

[storm vortex]

If the i7 actually did make an improvement I think it would be different

[clever sky]

Essentially the point to be made is, devs take this money so they can add more features to games.

[pearl tangle]

well so was this by the sounds of it.

[clever sky]

So that kinda makes sense right?

Where as consumers see it as taking away features because someone paid for its exclusivity.

[pearl tangle]

they didn't stop people doing it they were just saying you can do it tomorrow but i7 guys can do it today. same as going guys with a 1080 can have fancy hair and particles today and if you go and buy a $1000 GPU you can do it tomorrow

[clever sky]

Which also kind of makes sense.

But even when unrelated devs came out and said that... yo, we need this money to survive!

People were still - fuck that, just make the game not exclusive!

[pearl tangle]

yeah people bitch a lot thats for sure

[storm vortex]

I think it wouldn't have been as big of a deal if it was announced ahead of pre-orders

[pearl tangle]

it's annoying but thats how they survive. i wish i could play ps4 and xbox exclusives on my computer too

[clever sky]

People think outrage and anger can be mitigated.

Someone was saying - if only devs were more open and honest

[pearl tangle]

oh just reading stuff on it

[clever sky]

and I was like, yeah, I agree, open and honest viewpoint

[pearl tangle]

its bonus content anyways that they didn't even advertise. so not like they were stopping people doing stuff

its like hey people with this here is a bonus

[clever sky]

and the guy was all - well, it doesn't matter what your situation is, tough titties.

So... I get why devs just shut the fuck up and hope it all blows over now 😛

you can't win!

[storm vortex]

I think going silent is worse

[pearl tangle]

yeah have you been following kingspray?

[clever sky]

But at least you can pay to stay alive a bit longer 😛

[storm vortex]

Yeah Kingspray should have just been more forthcoming from the get go

[pearl tangle]

hah yeah complete silence the entire time

[storm vortex]

They saw what happened to super hot and figured they should shut their mouth but I don't think it really helped

[clever sky]

Well, superhot and kingspray are fantastic examples of what I'm talking about.

[storm vortex]

I rather know something is exclusive from the get go so I don't have to think about it anymore

[clever sky]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Oh well!

[pearl tangle]

superhot told people

kingspray got a day past its intended release date on steam and rolled back to coming soon. didn't say anything. then 3 months later releases on occulus store

then 1 day later comes out on steam. devs never said anything at all

[clever sky]

Just let the community make the noise. Don't even have to do marketing!

hahahah

😛

[pearl tangle]

i think if they just came out on the release day and said sorry guys we are going to have to delay by 4 months to make some fixes. oh by the way you will also get multiplayer and etc etc when we launch now

[storm vortex]

I think the key thing is to set proper expectations. No Man's Sky is another good example

[clever sky]

No Man's Sky is not in the same league

[pearl tangle]

yep. people don't deal well with dev silence either

[clever sky]

No Man's Sky is amazing in how fucking bold a dev can be in lying like a motherfucker

[pearl tangle]

similar. they didn't say anything at all until they came out and go oh heres a bit of an update

[storm vortex]

I'm just really glad Steam allows for refunds now.

So far I've only had to refund VR games but only because they made me motion sick or just weren't fun.

[clever sky]

Yeah, I've refunded VR games for shitty locomotion.

[storm vortex]

Before VR I never really had a reason to refund anything.

[clever sky]

To be fair, I refund a game if I didn't enjoy it.

[pearl tangle]

never tried to refund something. but probably could for a lot

[storm vortex]

You have to do it before 2 weeks or 2 hours played

[clever sky]

At least within a few minutes.

Like some stuff is just... yep, this is trash.

Like there was this one zombie game using the simple art assets

Stuff popping up 1m away from you

bad locomotion.

I was just... welp. No dice.

Stuff popping up 1m was ridiculous. You walk towards it thinking it's a path. Nope, it's not.

[pearl tangle]

oh yeah that was garbage

soi much vr crap just jumping on the chance to make a few bucks

and yet steam told me they wont release my projects on there because they are marketing stuff. even though Qantas did a shitty app which is purely just playing 360 videos and I did a cool 1 thats proper room scale with interactive elements and realtime shit going on

[clever sky]

Really?

[storm vortex]

Wow, there are so many crappy VR games on there too

[clever sky]

Fuck. Wonder if I'll be able to get my stuff up on steam now 😛

[storm vortex]

Just do another wave shooter those seem to go right in

[clever sky]

It's not a game. It's a locomotion system!

[pearl tangle]

yeah i just sent them a link to the 360 video saying we are looking to release a free version on steam. and they said they don't think its appropriate since its marketing

the hawaii thing and the qantas thing and the shirt shopify thing are all just marketing. at least mine is an interesting experience for people that isn't pure marketing like the others

[storm vortex]

Were you going to eventualy do paid?

[clever sky]

The shirt shopify thing was great

[pearl tangle]

nah it would be free

yeah its a cool little project

[storm vortex]

Ikea is basically just marketing too

[pearl tangle]

the qantas 1 is a 360 video player that is just the videos they have on youtube

[clever sky]

Haha... yeah, I get been salty about that one.

Ikea and Shopify are acceptable

[pearl tangle]

was trying to put these up for free. the proper interactive vive versions that is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DATHF2bRsqY

[storm vortex]

I'd like to put what im working on steam much like budget cuts did. A short demo to get feedback and allow a way to update it. I don't want to just go into early access to get stuff onto steam.

[pearl tangle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HKZ-s4PEao

and potentially this 1, modified a bit more and adding in high scores and leaderboards but so far it would still be the most comfortable skiing game on steam even though its a brand thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3DcGHC1EIE

thats just a quick 360 video i threw together this morning, not properly done yet

[clever sky]

Well, definetly more worthwhile than the qantas stuff 😛

I guess the question is more... how the hell did qantas get that stuff on steam?

[pearl tangle]

hah yeah exactly. there is the shitty basketball 1 with gatorade crap all over it or something too and it got there

thats pretty much what i wrote back to steam

[clever sky]

Yeah, I should be safe with my demo.

It's not marketing in that sense.

But it is 'marketing' for my own company/services.

[storm vortex]

@clever sky do you have a demo on there now or you are currently working on one?

[opal bobcat]

anyone seen working vr implmentation in 100% c++?

[clever sky]

Gonna package it up soon

and upload it and get you guys to test it

But going through the process of setting up my company

[opal bobcat]

i'm working on one now but converting from blueprint can be tricky

[clever sky]

and getting it on steam soon

[pearl tangle]

viveport will take a lot more stuff a lot easily anyways so I will throw my stuff up there first and then get steam to stop bitching about it once they see the proper interactive 1s

[upbeat kestrel]

Hey folks! Check out this mod for the VR Funhouse that @fresh canyon, @neon egret and I made for the VR Funhouse game jam back in September: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oky_uTI2Spk

It's on the Steam Workshop now: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=806212885

[clever sky]

Haha... that moment you go to build your project and it all fails so spectacularly!

As a novice developer, this seems like an oversight that could've been remedied by more frequently building the project during development...

[wicked oak]

i do that

for both pc and ps4

ps4 less often

its a good way to catch errors soon

[clever sky]

Yep. I'm just going to rebuild the project by migrating it

and see how it goes.

I suspect I'll be asking many questions over the next couple days!

Maybe even better is have a migration project and a editor project.

Because I have a shit load of extra content in the editor project

[clever sky]

What's a good file sharer for distributing a multi-gig project?

Directly relevant to you guys because that's how I'll be linking my demo to you 😛

[upbeat kestrel]

AWS if you don't mind paying for bandwidth

[clever sky]

Any good free ones?

[upbeat kestrel]

mediafire is decent

[clever sky]

Gonna try get it on steam for public distro

[upbeat kestrel]

I don't like Mega myself, but others might

[wicked oak]

torrent

also google ddrive

if its not big scale

[clever sky]

onedrive?

[wicked oak]

ive used google drive to send builds

a few times

another good idea is to put it on steam XD

if its a VR game you can put in on steam without greenlight

then you just send steam keys

pros include that you can add steam DRM, and updating

[clever sky]

Ah ok. Well... I guess I gotta go watch some tutorials on how to go through that entire process.

[upbeat kestrel]

google drive is great for private releases

[clever sky]

Why's that?

I just looked up 'best file sharing sites'

and got a site called... sabercat hosting?

[mighty carbon]

http://uploadvr.com/htc-announces-vive-studios-publish-deeper-longer-room-scale-vr-games/

[heady parrot]

Some of you were speculating and asking recently how many copies of Gunjack CCP has sold. I told you it was way over the speculated 30k you were throwing around..

Well my CEO recently said in a talk that we've sold over 500k 😃 so take that to your estimation models for the market.

[short locust]

Nice

[heady parrot]

Tipatat tweeted this straight from one of Hilmar's talk
https://twitter.com/tipatat/status/806674192221413376

[wicked oak]

half a million????

jesus christ

wtf am i doing developing for PC vr

[mighty carbon]

whaaaat?!

wow

well, hopefully getting all parts for my new PC this weekend and then I can get back to UE4 dev for Gear VR 😃

[upbeat kestrel]

I have been touched 😄

or is that be-touched?

I got my Touches.

No need to be touchy about it

I think they're a touch better than the Vive wands

...ok I think I'm done

[clever sky]

EveGunjack sold 500k copies?

Welp.

Gotta get that mobile money.

Go buy me a Pixel and daydream tomorrow. 😛

[full junco]

there are people who pay for mobile games? still don't get it 😛

[wicked oak]

VR mobile games

[mighty carbon]

@clever sky except 500k+ copies were sold on Gear VR 😉

[clever sky]

Yes, and that gold rush isn't going to happen again on the GearVR 😛

[mighty carbon]

and with now 2M+ userbase you have better chance making money with Gear VR than Daydream

[clever sky]

Shits moving over to daydream! deal with it.

/sunglassesdog

[mighty carbon]

actually Gunjack was criticized from day 1 - it's basically a Galaga with nice visuals

[clever sky]

Seriously though, Gunjack was early in and a decent quality at that point in time.

[mighty carbon]

yet, that didn't stop people from buying it

[clever sky]

It's a good VR test fodder.

i.e. ooh, I just got VR, let's see what's pretty...

[mighty carbon]

well, good luck with Daydream 😃

[clever sky]

Now? A lot of users have stopped messing around with GearVR, so you want to think about daily active users rather than total userbase

[mighty carbon]

less devs on Gear VR - better for me 😉

[clever sky]

Well good luck with GearVR! 😛

The other big reason for me to develop on Daydream would be because of the motion controller.

The work I've done essentially requires one. Without it, I'm just making crappy nothing special games, and I'd rather just stick to my day job if that's the case.

[mighty carbon]

but Leap Motion is coming to Gear VR

[clever sky]

Integrated?

[mighty carbon]

I doubt that

[clever sky]

Because developing for a peripheral on top of a peripheral is just not good business.

[mighty carbon]

either Leap Motion doesn't want to be sold, or no one wants to acquire it 😛

while I really want motion controller for Gear VR, I don't see why one can't make a good game without it

[clever sky]

Because I want to make a dungeon crawler hack and slash that involves movement and moving your hand around?

You can make a decent gamepad only game.

Sure.

But that's not what I want to do 😛

[mighty carbon]

https://uploadvr.com/leap-motion-unveils-new-module-with-expanded-fov-and-mobile-vr-support/

"According to Leap, its goal for the new module is not to package and sell it in Best Buy as the “Leap Motion 2.” Instead, the group wants to work with VR headset manufacturers themselves to integrate the hand-tracking sensor directly."

[clever sky]

Best of luck to Leap Motion. Really. Great tech when it works. Just... for some reasoon hasn't been incorporated yet, even though it'd be great supplementary control scheme.

[opal bobcat]

it would be good for gearvr where you dont have other controllers

[mighty carbon]

the question is - does it even work ?

I hear all kind of stories ranging from "wow" to "garbage"

[clever sky]

Since the Orion update it's been pretty good.

[opal bobcat]

i have one but theres not a lot of software out there for it

[clever sky]

So long as you're ok with the limited tracking FOV

[opal bobcat]

i have yet to stick it to the front of my rift

[clever sky]

But a lot of people aren't.

And also lack of software.

[mighty carbon]

I mean, UE4 + Orion

[clever sky]

It's just not robust enough to base any real development around.

[opal bobcat]

that jelly fish demo was cool

[clever sky]

It's only good for experimentation work at the moment.

And I think most devs are thinking... that's neat, but do I want to spend the time and effort playing with that tech when there's no market for it?

[mighty carbon]

well, I don't know what you expect from it 😃

I'd use it for interactions

[clever sky]

Well, right now it only works on the PC.

and PCVR has motion controllers.

[mighty carbon]

not sure if I'd use it for picking up items and holding something

[clever sky]

And while leap motion can do some stuff you can't do with motion controllers.

The most important things like picking stuff up and moving it around can easily be done with motion controllers.

Hell, I'm getting a good deal of hand presence going by aligning the hand mesh correctly to the controller (so it's oriented to your hand positions as you'd hold the controllers)...

and having physics collision on them so that when you touch something, things react to the virtual fingers.

which in turn feels like things reacting to my own fingers

Like... the area in which finger tracking would excel... are also sadly the areas that would most benefit from tactile feedback.

Like typing on a keyboard.

Even if you track fingers perfectly, it feels whack typing with no resistance.

You can try how bad that is by getting a laser keyboard 😛

Or spinning a pencil. Just not happening if you can't feel the pencil!

[opal bobcat]

how good is it at gesture recognition?

seems like creating good gestures for it would be key

[clever sky]

Not sure. Haven't played around with it enough.

[mighty carbon]

that's why I'd only use it for interactions (and gestures if I was making a game with spells)

by interactions I mean pressing buttons, pulling levers, etc. sort of things

also attacking AI with bare hands should be cool 😛

(and if they would allow to use custom meshes for hands, then weapons can be used too)

[clever sky]

You know what... leap motion would be a great addition to Google Pixel now that I think about it.

daydream doesn't do positional tracking and only has a single controller.

[mighty carbon]

no way.. there is no room for it

Daydream was meant to be non-expandable

and Gear VR has more room where to put it

😛

[clever sky]

But with leap motion and daydream controller, you get both hands positionally tracked within a cone and some buttons still.

I don't mean from a it can be done now point of view.

Only that the two has decent synergy.

[mighty carbon]

but Google has Tango.. Probably even better than Leap Motion

just massive and expensive

[clever sky]

Yeah. Hopefully that makes it into the next iteration.

In some way or another.

[mighty carbon]

http://www.roadtovr.com/amd-radeon-crimson-relive-adds-asynchronous-space-warp-latest-radeon-software-update/

[clever sky]

Yeah. Great stuff.

[mighty carbon]

can someone with Radeon test and confirm?

https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/5h7pfu/warning_to_amd_users_without_400_seriesfury_cards/

ha

good ol' AMD

I still wonder whether I should focus on VR, or port my old game to UE4 for Steam and XB1, and then focus on VR 🤔

[mighty carbon]

http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/8/13882212/htc-vive-studios-virtual-reality-entertainment-arcade-saga

lol, talking about fragmentation

I guess Steam isn't a good place to be, so they decided to make their own storefront

[spring pond]

Anyone here spent a lot of time doing networking in VR ?

[mighty carbon]

vblanco probably is the One

[sullen stirrup]

🖐🏼

sup @spring pond

[spring pond]

OK, so I have this setup: pawn has motioncontroller components that have child actor child compoments that are set to a custom actor type to represent hands

I'm trying to do a Server_sethandtransform(Ftransform) in which i check of the owning pawn islocallycontrolled() and if so doing that call

[short locust]

I was lazy and used this: https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?116782-VR-(OpenVR)-Expansion-Plugin

It's not OpenVR anymore

Works a charm

[spring pond]

but the server call doesn't seem to be fired, I tried doing a "SetOwner(the pawn)" to the hand class inside my pawn, but that doesn't seem to do the trick

[short locust]

Although, I'd like to hear other answers if people have any

[spring pond]

So i looked at using that but decided against it for various reasons, its really good tho

[short locust]

Ok

[sullen stirrup]

so the RPC ain't on the pawn itself

[spring pond]

No the HandActor (that is held in a child actor component)

[sullen stirrup]

so, your structure is

Pawn
- Motion Controller Component
    - Child actor component

anyhow, is the child actor replicated

[spring pond]

yep, panw is bReplicates = true and the child actor is too

so it all works fine on a listen server, but not dedicated which makes me thing its just a lack of net connection on the client

[sullen stirrup]

err

[spring pond]

hmmm wait, i think i have a hunch about something i might be doing wrong

[sullen stirrup]

is the child actor component set to replicate itself, not the actor it represents

I had a weird issue like that iirc

[spring pond]

oh, no it isnt!

good catch, let me try that first

TBH the child actor is so tied to the pawn that i could theoretically just route an RPC through the pawn like Server_MoveHand(bool IsLeft, FTransform transform) or something, but its more just trying to get an understanding of networking as a whole

[wicked oak]

@spring pond You should put every "Motion ControllerComponent" to -1 player index

that way it doesnt work

but if you are possessed by a LocalPlayer, you set it to 0

so it works

[spring pond]

wait, then replication of the motion controller will just magically work?

[wicked oak]

then, from the owning client you basically call "server_updatetransformations()" with the transformation for head and hands

[spring pond]

hmmm ya

[wicked oak]

and that updates the transforms

[sullen stirrup]

that's just so that you don't end up moving everyone's motion controllers

[wicked oak]

exactly

[spring pond]

ya

[wicked oak]

and controllers are only moved locally, so you need to send that info to everyone

[spring pond]

generally UE4 networking isn't so bad, but this motion controller/HMD pos stuff is clunky

[wicked oak]

my recomendation is that those replicated transforms are not "directly" added to the actual transform

but you interpolate to them

from the server_updateVRTransforms()

you set "desiredLeftHandTransform" and so on

and on Tick

you interpolate into that desired location and rotation

of course, DesiredLeftHandTransform has to be a replicated variable

for the child actors...

they are a huge damn issue

not sure in 4,14 with the improvements

but they werent replicated on my end

so i had to spawn them server-side

and then the player "attaches" the actors themselves

[sullen stirrup]

I can tell you a mockup of how I ended up doing this entire replication thing

[spring pond]

ya my pawn manually init's them in code

[sullen stirrup]

I don't use variables nor extra stuff

what I do is,

I set motion controller components / camera to replicate, and then I just send a transform to the server and then it sets components' and camera's transform

that way you just use the components or the camera and avoid extra variables

[wicked oak]

variables let you do interpolation so it looks smoother

[sullen stirrup]

well yea

[spring pond]

@blissful heath So, yeah thats what I'm doing for the HMD pos right now and its working perfectly, it was just fucking up with the hands and I assumed it was because they are this child actor (that is spawned on the server)

[sullen stirrup]

although, bare in mind updating, i.e., camera's transform server-side won't visually update the position on clients' end but the position and rotation variables

(wrong adam 😛 )

[spring pond]

oops

OK, thanks for the help/info guys I plug away at it a tiny bit more and see where i get

hopefully i can knock this out so nobody else on the team ever has to worry about it 😄

[sullen stirrup]

❤

I don't get though why you'd do that on the child actor itself

rather than handling it on the pawn

do you call the RPC on tick? @wicked oak

fine, just read you mentioned you do earlier

[heady parrot]

Kraver that you? Or different Adam? 😃

[sullen stirrup]

different I guess 😛

[heady parrot]

too many Adam's in VR 😃 hey

[spring pond]

@sullen stirrup Yeah, I think I may rearchitect this to be more like your way and just have a single RPC on the pawn. I'm always going to want to mirror those three things anyway

[sullen stirrup]

just wondering, it feels a bit more handier having it this way imo 😛

[mighty carbon]

https://twitter.com/cognitiveVR << they just released UE4 support

(I am guessing as an integration)

http://docs.cognitivevr.io/unreal/get-started/

[sullen stirrup]

wat dat exactly

oh I see

[mighty carbon]

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ccpgames.gunjack2

I wonder if it's any different from the one on Gear VR

[heady parrot]

its a whole new game

[mighty carbon]

I figured 😃 But how really different is it ? From video on YouTube looks somewhat exactly the same (same mechanics for sure), but with controller support

[heady parrot]

I havent been following it that closerly, but I know they been working on quite a lot of new mechanics. So its more than just "different enemies"

Im not sure what has been publicly announced/shown, so I'm being careful here about what I say 😃

[mighty carbon]

it's been released already, so ..

(I don't know how "embargo" works in these cases)

[heady parrot]

Im not sure what made it into the final game from what I've heard 😃

[mighty carbon]

aye 😃

[full junco]

when will Epic finally merge Dev-VR to master again...

the last merge was 69 days ago now, I finally want to get all the new stuff from there 😦

[wraith atlas]

hello fronds, where do you all go when you want to find a decent animator/rigger? polycount for instance?

(for freelance / small jobs etc)

[full junco]

you can also try #career-chat

[spring pond]

FYI dudes, moving everything to a single function to replicate HMD + L/R Motion controllers worked just fine and made way simpler code

👍

[mighty carbon]

@heady parrot how many people worked on Gunjack 1 ?

and how long did it take to build ?

[leaden jackal]

Well, it was worth a shot (pun fully intended...)

http://i.imgur.com/SpSKOPa.gifv

[upbeat kestrel]

In honor of the Touch release

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1xrNaTO1bI

[upbeat kestrel]

damn

Oculus Medium is the shit

[full junco]

so did epic say anything about having any plans to support multi view / multi res rendering directly in ue4 (support both nvidia and amd) for rift and vive on pc?

[mighty carbon]

not that I know of :/

[full junco]

and on gearvr it's called MultiView too and UE4 supports that on gearvr, right?

[full junco]

since nvidia supports both of it in their ue4 branch I guess that it can work with both deferred and forward in theory, right?

Nvidias "Lens Matched Shading" only works on Pascal (GTX 10xx), but does Nvidia have something like the MultiView stuff?

[mighty carbon]

@full junco yeah, UE4 supports multiview on Gear VR, but it was done by Oculus, not Nvidia

[full junco]

ok

so on the ARM website they write this:
What is multiview rendering and why is it useful?
Virtual reality applications need to render all their scenes twice from different view angles in order to create the illusion of depth. Doing this by simply rendering everything twice with different view and perspective matrices is not optimal, as it requires setting up a mostly identical draw call multiple times. The GL_OVR_multiview extension adresses this issue by allowing one draw call to render to multiple texture layers of an array texture, removing the overhead of setting up multiple draw calls.

Nvidia seems to call the MultiView stuff "SINGLE PASS STEREO": http://puu.sh/sJ6Gb/7dd6891d58.png

but I can't really find any information from nvidia about that

also not mentioned for the ue4 VRWorks branch

[mighty carbon]

well, I don't know the detail, but I know 4.14 should have multiview for Gear VR as an experimental feature

[full junco]

ok here's a thread about it I just wrote: https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?130950-Native-support-for-MultiView-MultiRes-rendering-on-Rift-Vive-VR

anything there that I should edit or does it make sense?

[mighty carbon]

lol

Epic knows all that

[full junco]

epic always makes such decisions dependent on "community interest". so its important that people ask about it

[mighty carbon]

why they don't support it? Because Paragon, UT, Fortnight and RR don't need it

[full junco]

RR would need it

[mighty carbon]

ehh, I don't know what makes you think they do what's in community's interest

[full junco]

because they do

[mighty carbon]

VR isn't that big yet and UE4 VR community is tiny compare to the rest

[full junco]

VR is the future

[mighty carbon]

so, right now interests of major part of the community and Epic cross. And it's not VR, sadly

[full junco]

and epic is very focused on VR currently

[mighty carbon]

then wait and see

UE 4.99 might have it all

😄

I was in the same boat with GEar VR (and still is to some degree)

now UE4 has almost everything for Gear VR

[full junco]

see, so they listen to what people need

[mighty carbon]

I was asking it in 4.10, so... Just wait 😃

[full junco]

4.10 wasn't too long ago

[mighty carbon]

feels like it was

[full junco]

feels like yesterday to me

[mighty carbon]

lol, ok

[real needle]

Has anyone else had issues when using the oculus plugin in your project and performance?

[mighty carbon]

so, then by 4.18 you shall receive

[real needle]

If I enable the plugin, package, creates a session and opens it, performance is horrible

If I disable the plugin and do the same thing, everything works just fine

This is using both the Vive and the Rift btw, no difference

[pearl tangle]

what so the vr side of things still works with the plugin disabled?

[real needle]

yeah totally, the rift runs on openVR

But I can't get access to some stuff like ASW and Touch specific input

And obviously, can't package for oculus home

[pearl tangle]

hah bloody oculus

[real needle]

There's also the small issue, that if I don't use the oculus plugin, when the engine receives "HMDType", it just receives "SteamVR"

[pearl tangle]

ah yeah that is an issue

you doing custom controllers for the different 1s or have you just got it locked to the gun still?

[real needle]

Hmmm not sure I understand the question

[pearl tangle]

well are you showing a vive wand or touch controller in your game

[real needle]

Atm I'm pulling the data from steam and fills a procedural mesh

Which won't work on Oculus Home...

So Ideally I want to know which HMD/Controllers in use - set BP_ControllerTutorial Mesh to the correct one

Using steamvr is cool because it's a generic API. IE "Show Trigger Button Tooltip" can be dynamically shown in the right location of the button

And it doesn't matter which controller you're using

I just want to be able to have the consumer decide on buying through Home or Steam, whatever they're comfortable with

[pearl tangle]

depends if somebody is using the stupid frying pan controller or something that would be rather weird in the game hah

[clever sky]

Oh man.

Magic Leap... I was slowly getting suckered in by this shit too.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/8/13894000/magic-leap-ar-microsoft-hololens-way-behind

I mean, I was still skeptical of the entire business foundation... but man alive, didn't think Rony Arbovitz was that good with the smoke and mirrors.

But at least one of these videos — showing an alien invader game that let the wearer of the supposed headset or glasses make use of real-world objects — was created by visual effects studio Weta Workshop. Prior to today, it was believed Weta had simply created the visual assets for the game. However, The Information reveals the entire video was created by the studio.

[digital marlin]

8\

[clever sky]

Oh well. Looks like Michael Abrash was right.

AR is a long long time from becoming mainstream

And it'll have to go through VR to get there.

[pearl tangle]

i thought it was always obvious weta did the whole thing?

magic leap just has the display tech ahead of the curve

microsoft has the spatialization stuff pretty nailed but not the display

[mighty carbon]

ha, I told you so..

[clever sky]

@pearl tangle they had a kind of display tech ahead of the curve.

One that they couldn't minituarize apparently 😛

[pearl tangle]

yet.

[clever sky]

Yeah

[pearl tangle]

thats why people have put hundreds of millions into them

nobody expected it was going to be something consumer ready in 12 months

[clever sky]

Well, that's what they were going around telling people.

We've got this ready to go to manufacturing

[pearl tangle]

they have developer kits out there

[clever sky]

Oh yeah

You tried one?

Even if you have, you'd be under NDA 😛

[pearl tangle]

yep

i just had to get my entire team to go through a bunch of crazy over the top NDA for Samsung too for something that im doing for something at some time....hah

[clever sky]

Hehe

[pearl tangle]

hopefully get to do some stuff with Space X next year though 😉

[full junco]

@clever sky @pearl tangle comment here and tell epic you wanna see it in ue4 😄 https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?130950-Native-support-for-MultiView-MultiRes-rendering-on-Rift-Vive-VR

[pearl tangle]

hah amd only came out with the drivers today?

[full junco]

@pearl tangle yeah 😄

[real needle]

@full junco Good post

[full junco]

@real needle thanks!

[real needle]

I'm letting my team now that they should chime in

[full junco]

great 😄

[pearl tangle]

I will throw up a query on the UDN about it as well actually

[real needle]

Awesome

[full junco]

@pearl tangle great too!

[pearl tangle]

done

[full junco]

UDN is just like the answerhub, right?

with the difference that it isnt public and I guess epic responds faster

[clever sky]

@full junco Cheers. Good man.

Was playing Smashbox.

Bloody awesome game that kinda got lost in the whole Arizona Sunshine kerfuffle

[full junco]

thanks!

[storm vortex]

I tried Arizona Sunshine earlier. i7 stuff aside it seems like a very cool game. I'm sure the teleport haters are going to hate on it though.

[clever sky]

Teleport hater here

[full junco]

there are "teleport haters"?

[storm vortex]

The weapon aiming seems off to me though

[clever sky]

It's a good game inspite of its weak locomotion mechanics.

[full junco]

teleport is the only good way to move so how can anyone hate that

[storm vortex]

Like I look straight down the sights line it up and no headshot

[clever sky]

But really... it's the first of its type. A lengthy FPS SP campaign.

in VR.

That's not a mod.

(Doom 3)

[storm vortex]

and not a wave shooter

with non annoying voice over

[clever sky]

Eh... certain parts were quite grating 😛

[storm vortex]

I'm only an hour in

[clever sky]

But not terrible!

overall that voice acting that is.

@full junco Well, even among teleportation options, there are ways to do it better and worse.

Dash = more immersive and slightly more motion sickness inducing... but not for the majority of people.

[full junco]

@clever sky all teleports feel the same, what options are there?

[clever sky]

Blink = less immersive, more disorientating, but slightly less motion sickness inducing.

[full junco]

what's dash?

what's blink?

[clever sky]

You get a quick smooth motion from point A to B

[storm vortex]

Dash is like what Raw Data uses

[clever sky]

blink is putting a black out frame between points

[full junco]

lol smooth motion in vr sounds horrible

never played a vr game that did that

[clever sky]

No. You have to understand the physiological mechanisms at play

[storm vortex]

It works pretty well in raw data, its not very many frames between point a and b

[clever sky]

not just blanket rule out vection whatsoever because that's what they said at the start.

But dash works because... there's a lag to vestibular activation

i.e. visual motion under a certain threshold is meaningless

And that threshold is around 50-100ms

Where as blink, is not as good as it intuitively seems, because it is more likely to cause disorientation.

[full junco]

hm

[clever sky]

In the sense that you lose a sense of spatial awareness

e.g. if you teleport behind a wall and lose visual sight of your previous points of reference

you become temporarily disoriented until you integrate the rest of the spatial data (by looking around or remembering where you were)

[full junco]

well then it's probably best to just implement both and let people chose what they want

[clever sky]

Exactly.

But currently, the messaging is off target, and the appreciation of the nuances is lost to many devs.

So we end up getting a lot of disdain for teleportation as a whole, when it can probably be implemented in a way that's acceptable to more.

[full junco]

well I currently use linear teleportation in my game, so not that Parabel thing. so you always have visual sight to where you came from

I like that

[clever sky]

Unless you're pointing in a direction with the controller that you're not looking in.

[storm vortex]

is yours like Vanishing Realms?

[full junco]

I haven't played that

[clever sky]

Or your arm reaches around an obstacle

[storm vortex]

That is a great game you should play it

[clever sky]

Or a few other edge cases

[full junco]

I only really played the lab and audioshield and hm, probably some more, yeah tilt brush

[clever sky]

I actually do prefer the direct LOS teleportation as well

it's easier to point and aim than the arc teleportation.

[storm vortex]

I prefer straight but the arc works good for hills or stairs

[clever sky]

But... the arc has a natural teleport length limitation

And yeah, as ICM says

[storm vortex]

I liked how Arizona Sunshine prevented teleporting over certain things

[clever sky]

It was both good and bad.

[full junco]

yeah the natural length limitation is good

[clever sky]

A bit too restrictive making pathing quite finicky.

Around tight obstacles.

[storm vortex]

It also handled blacking out the screen when you click your head through something. I liked how it slowly faded.

[full junco]

I do that too

[clever sky]

But kinda a good way to limit gameplay futzing from players.

[full junco]

the closer you come to stuff the darker it gets

[storm vortex]

There was some other game that did that a while ago but didn't do the slow fade and then i would be lost in the a solid color and had a harder time finding the way back

[clever sky]

Yep.

I've got screen darkening going in my stuff too.

[full junco]

don't want people to be able to clip through stuff

but my implementation isn't perfect, what's the best way to do it?

[clever sky]

Well... I don't know if I've perfected it.

[full junco]

I use a sphere trace but that can be a bit buggy

[clever sky]

But I've got an extra feature that makes it extra... spicy? :p

[storm vortex]

I was thinking while playing to put up invisible walls over things you don't want the teleport to go through and make the line trace fail

Seems like that would be a lot of work though

That or build it into the actors like the road blocks they had

[clever sky]

I'm using a sphere trace too.

[full junco]

the problem with the sphere trace is it doesn't pick the closest result

not the closest point

[clever sky]

Oh. What's it do?

I guess I must've made my system robust enough to hide that fact 😛

[full junco]

not exactly sure what it did, was months ago that I implemented it

and it works well enough

just not perfect

[clever sky]

Yeah. It's not perfect like you say.

Main problem I get is when you continue shoving your head through objects

and there's just no more stuff to collide with

it sometimes shows through

even though I'm actually pushing you back

at the same time.

no more mesh

I mean, it doesn't show completely through... but it fades back just enough to let you see that you're glitching.

At this point, I'm just... eh, that's good enough. If they're glitching the system because they can't take no, then that's not on me 😛

[full junco]

well yeah

going out on the other side is a problem for thin stuff

solution : don't have thin stuff 😀

[clever sky]

Yeah... D:

I've been trying to solve that thin stuff problem.

It works if you're going slow

But you can 'bash' through

Problem is, the clipping code is from the plugin.

Oh wait no.

I did solve that problem

But introduced another one!

hahaha

[full junco]

ok

I luckily don't have any thin stuff

[clever sky]

Yeah. Probably best to design around those limitations.

I'm not at a stage where I'm balancing against those sort of things yet though, so not too worried about it yet.

[full junco]

no idea at what stage I am...

[clever sky]

Well, I'm not developing a game yet per se 😛

[full junco]

I really would like to not wait forever with releasing it

but I don't want to release anything that feels unfinished

[clever sky]

True.

[full junco]

the nice thing with just waiting is that ue4 gets better and better

and other software like ATW and ASW

[clever sky]

That and you don't have to brave the wildfire of a vociferous userbase if you've slipped up somewhere! 😛

[full junco]

never thought about that lol

is that bad?

[clever sky]

Well, if you take an exclusivity deal, they will wreck your shit.

[full junco]

and that's fine

then I would deserve it

[clever sky]

I can't agree with that. VR needs devs of all shapes and sizes to grow.

And some have to seek funding from any source they can get.

Especially medium sized studios

[full junco]

I hate all limitations that aren't purely technical

[clever sky]

But yeah, the i7 lock out was... bad optics.

Here's how I would've done it; made it DLC

and have intel give out free codes for i7 owners.

Bam, same bloody thing achieved.

Without the massive outrage boners.

[full junco]

and that game probably doesn't even need so many cores I guess?

[clever sky]

Nope.

At least not the parts they locked out.

[full junco]

I am actually filling all 12 or more threads with AVX2 stuff so yeah I should make it i7 exclusive, but that would be a technical reason then

[clever sky]

In all the kerfuffle, comments about the game's buggy ass second half have been lost in the fray 😛

[storm vortex]

@clever sky intel with dlc codes would have been a way better way to handle it

[clever sky]

@storm vortex right? Such better optics. Use established market norms to achieve the same end!

[storm vortex]

still think they should have just had a splash image instead though

and then not have it for the people that already own it

Most annoying advertisements are for things I already have

[clever sky]

Well yeah. But I'm talking about more in the sense of; if that's what they had to do, then that's the way it should've been handeled.

Intel advertisements are getting kinda annoying.

[storm vortex]

Yeah, gamers hate day 1 dlc and they especially hate being locked out of stuff

[full junco]

why does Intel need advertisements anyways without any competition

[clever sky]

Day 1 DLC has plenty of precedence though.

[storm vortex]

They would have been wise to just not introduce the feature till a few weeks from now and have it be an intel special, i think that still would have gotten some backlash though

[clever sky]

i7 core lockout has no precedence.

[full junco]

dlc in general are bad

[storm vortex]

yeah, and was stupid in this market. That's such a small audience

I don't mind DLC if it is good DLC and worth the money

[clever sky]

Yeah, delaying it would've been a wiser move

[storm vortex]

Deus Ex Human Revolution had good DLC. Dishonored had the best DLC I ever paid for

[clever sky]

Put some gap between launch and DLC

[storm vortex]

Don't try to sell me horse armor though.

[full junco]

I think I have never ever bought a dlc. I bought expansion packs like anno 1404 Venice though

[storm vortex]

Skins though I don't care about

[clever sky]

I don't mind DLC; as long as its cosmetics or mini-expansion kinda stuff.

[storm vortex]

Stuff that isn't pay to win

[clever sky]

The whole paying for addiction mechanisms are morally iffy for me 😛

[storm vortex]

That's why I stopped playing Battle Field after Battle Field 2

[clever sky]

Like buying keys to unlock boxes

[full junco]

minecraft was successful without dlcs I think

so just don't do dlcs

[storm vortex]

I never had to deal with that stuff luckily. My gripe was battle field 2 had DLC that had better guns and if you didn't have them you'd get slaughtered

[clever sky]

Well... not everyone can be minecraft.

And strike the zeitgeist at just the right time

[storm vortex]

I haven't played them but I have heard the Witcher 3's DLCs are very high value

[full junco]

that are probably good dlcs

[storm vortex]

That's from a more old school developer that gets things though. No DRM and great value for a product

[clever sky]

Well, you say that, and it's true to a certain extent.

But what people don't mention typically is that the economics of working from poland

is very different from most of the rest of the world.

[full junco]

why?

[storm vortex]

Yeah that's very true

[clever sky]

Cheaper more skilled devs

Build a AAA 100 million title for 50 million

[storm vortex]

I'm not sure what game devs in the US make but I'm sure it's much more

[full junco]

they are not just some small studio on Poland. they are a major thing there. even the politicans are proud of those Witcher devs

[clever sky]

Point is, holding up Witcher 3 in its situation like the model for the rest of gaming development

is misleading to fans and harmful for devs 😛

I mean... it's easy to hold up the best of the best and point to their success.

But the reality is, not everyone can be the best of the best.

And without a sufficiently large/healthy industry, not even the best can be the best the way they are.

Like the goal is to get the highest peak. Well, if you're building pyramids you need a wide base.

[full junco]

don't like that metaphor

[clever sky]

hahah 😛 ok it's not my best.

But you kinda get what I mean right? The tools we're using and taking advantage of now.

That doesn't exist because of VR.

They all exist because it was built off the wide base of game development.

[full junco]

yes

[clever sky]

Which is great. But there are something that we can't borrow from the existing gaming industry

[full junco]

vr would be super lame if normal games wouldn't have existed

[clever sky]

Like their economies of scale.

And their market sizes.

[full junco]

yeah

[clever sky]

So, to get to Witcher 3 in VR levels, or to find enough indy developers to strike at the anvil

so one sparks the zeitgeist like Minecraft did.

needs a wide base in the market.

[full junco]

I still don't know what minecraft did. it's lame.

[storm vortex]

It made the best digital LEGO game

[clever sky]

I don't like Minecraft either myself.

But I can sure as hell recognize that they totally captured the moment in gaming.

[full junco]

counter strike is also successful

since like forever

[clever sky]

Sure. But counterstrike alone doesn't an industry make 😛

[storm vortex]

I think Counter-Strike was the game that kinda trigger FPS ESports though

[full junco]

valve is like a whole industry 😂

[clever sky]

Counter strike was bought by valve!

If you remember.

[full junco]

I don't want to think about what vr would be without valve now

[storm vortex]

yeah, Valve hardly makes any of their own games

[clever sky]

Well... it'd be a lot more Oculusey.

[storm vortex]

but they make tech others stand on

[clever sky]

And ironically, probably a lot more peaceful.

[full junco]

lol

[clever sky]

Due to the lack of competition 😛

[storm vortex]

I think had Facebook not bought Oculus there would have been much more peace

[full junco]

we would not have any room scale

[clever sky]

True, true.

[storm vortex]

And also slower pace as you say

[clever sky]

But facebook has accelerated VR development.

[storm vortex]

yeah if it were up to Valve would be another 3 years

[clever sky]

I mean, we have the Vive BECAUSE facebook bought Oculus.

[full junco]

vr without room scale is like no idea, politics without lies or something like that

[storm vortex]

heh

[clever sky]

vr without room scale is like no idea, politics without lies or something like that
This analogy doesn't feel right 😛

[full junco]

why? I like it

[clever sky]

Hahaha... I mean politics without lies is desirable.

[full junco]

well yeah I get it now it's bad

[clever sky]

But that's not the reality 😛

[full junco]

I would love to have a third big vr company (desktop)

[clever sky]

A better metaphor would be - VR without roomscale is like... taxes without representation? 😛

[full junco]

haha

that's still not right

[clever sky]

I know.

We're really ham-fisting these analogies right now.

[full junco]

taxes are something people don't like and even with representation they still don't really like them

vr is something people like

[clever sky]

Haha. I think the best bet is to move away from politics as metaphor.

[full junco]

yeah

cake without sugar

[clever sky]

Cake without icing!

Just plain sponge.

'Well that's nice. I guess?' to 'Wow, that's fancy'

[full junco]

but the icing is more like a visual thing that's not too important for how it tastes I think?

room scale had huge impact on how it feels