idd
#virtual-reality
sullen stirrup
wicked oak
Feel like an action hero while switching seamlessly between an arsenal of guns, swords, spells as you blast your way through murderous hordes
how bout this?
leaden jackal
Can anyone recommend HMD stands like this for Vive and CV1?
leaden jackal
Ah cool. Move control spots fit Vive controls?
mighty carbon
@leaden jackal Do you know Blender ? You can model and 3D print your own stand! 😃
leaden jackal
Lol, if I ever sell enough copies of a game to buy the 3D printer on my Amazon Wishlist I will 😉
leaden jackal
Cool, I'll check that out. Thanks.
leaden jackal
Copy/Paste or the upload button next to textbox <<<<<
mighty carbon
Logo for my company
I've been working on a logo for my company, Supranormal
what do you think, folks?
mighty carbon
Thx
clever sky
Would do well on a white shirt
mighty carbon
I am gonna make another variant with that looking like inset doors instead of windows
(so it wouldn't be symmetrical)
clever sky
Make it taller and inset towards the bottom
mighty carbon
right
mighty carbon
funny thing happened.. About a month ago I checked for supranormal.com and it wasn't taken. For whatever reason I didn't purchase that domain. Yesterday wanted to buy it - already taken. WTF?!?!?!
GIMP 2.8 😃
mighty carbon
so now I had to make subdomain on my old/current website and I hope GoDaddy can offer me an affordable buyout option for supranormal.com
if not, I guess I would have to go with suranormal.xyz
Just not sure if people care for non .com extensions or if no one gives a damn nowadays
(back in the days not having .com was a looked down upon)
any ideas?
sullen stirrup
would say non com domains are more likely to go even with indie
like, com is like we are a bigass company
sullen stirrup
heady parrot
If people know your game name or heard it before and want info, they will go to <name here>.com
so from a marketing perspective having some chinese guy squat it isnt great 😃
mighty carbon
well, I am a garage indie
heady parrot
you still need to market your game and get noticed 😃
mighty carbon
so I am sure people will go into Google to find my stuff (from experience, that's how it was for my current website)
true
heady parrot
are you going to be on Steam and Oculus primarily?
mighty carbon
but then it will be knows it's not .com
If it's VR, I don't see where else I could be 😃
heady parrot
Playstation store for one
heady parrot
most people will then probably discover your game via storefronts or word of mouth
mighty carbon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%261_Internet << these guys got my domain
Status: clientTransferProhibited https://icann.org/epp#clientTransferProhibited << what on earth?!
mighty carbon
nm, I used ICANN's whois look up and some French person registered it :/
sullen stirrup
long
mighty carbon
but I am not supra
I don't get these people... Buy domains and they redirect to something entirely else
:/
clever sky
They're professional squatting networks
They buy domain names and wait for someone to come along and want them
Domain names have pretty much been dictionary attacked at this point....
mighty carbon
😦
mighty carbon
supranor.com is not avail (squatted), but supranorm.com is
sullen stirrup
get the .al
mighty carbon
still not sure it makes sense, since I can get supranormal.net /.org/.info
.al isn't avail through GoDaddy
mighty carbon
Albania, really?
mighty carbon
I guess I'll just with .net or .info or something similar and if I ever strike gold like Notch, I am sure I can buy out .com 😉
sounds legit
mighty carbon
sweet
still no motion controller :/
this one throws into the mix positional tracking for Gear VR
hard light
well, a motion controller wouldn't be on the same patent, if they patented it at all
but also, patents are just patents, they often never see the light of day
clever sky
Face tracking eh
Pretty cool!
As long as someone that's not me makes it easy for me to work with 😛
spring pond
Oculus did a great face tracking paper with a university a while back
spring pond
- a webcam
clever sky
But... that'd kinda necessitate having a variety of facial interfaces that can actually make contact with most people's faces
I think the obvious conclusion at this point is that it's not worth including yet. Not until VR is big enough and social more importantly is big enough to justify.
Right now, you can do what Facebook are doing with their social app and guess at the emotion from the tone of voice.
And fake the rest
Works well enough for cartoony faces. And who can tell?
mighty carbon
I bet if it comes to be, that would be how Oculus field tests the tech and then will use similar tech in Rift
normal thorn
updated nvidia driver, 100ms gpu time! Argh! Simple fix the headset also needed then an firmware update
ripe vault
I have yet to find good tutorials/documentation for working with the controller for daydream. I haven't the foggiest idea of where to begin. The google docs seem a little sparse: https://developers.google.com/vr/unreal/daydream-in-unreal . Does anyone have any tips on where to get started?
spring pond
the facebook demo didn't emulation your expression using your voice, you pressed different directions on the touch thumbstick to make the emotions
wintry escarp
don't need face tracking, just eye tracking and position
mighty carbon
face tracking is cool
I think Epic is too knee-deep in Paragon, which isn't VR and thus we don't have stable and steady progress 😦 Competition is catching up quickly.
heady parrot
Is anyone here using 4.14 with Oculus 1.10 integration (from Github) and forward rendering? Running into a crash in debug buidls
Epic is putting a lot of effort into VR 😃 and they are using Robo Recall as their icebreaker project
mighty carbon
it just feels like they stretch thin with so many project and small team
heady parrot
yes
but they got a VR team which has some really smart people full time on that 😃
its not a big team, but its good people 😃
wicked oak
i am
it gives a good performance boost. I still use temporal antialiasing with it in my case
runs great
mighty carbon
Is it possible to release VR game outside of Steam / Oculus ?
(so that neither of those is required to run the game, yet users can enjoy ASW/ATW and whatever Vive's counterparts are)
I know it's absolutely not possible to release for Gear VR outside of Oculus Store.
heady parrot
yeah the problem Im tracking down is specific to MSAA. The renter target doesnt have the same MSAA sample count set as the depth buffer
motorsep nothing prevents you from zipping up and releasing your game that way, and yes it will use the Oculus runtime just fine
mighty carbon
sounds awesome, good to know (as I might have to do that)
heady parrot
you will however have to include instructions for your users to go into the Oculus settings and allow external programs to be run
wicked oak
as if someone with a beefy pc and a 800 dollar setup wont click that unknown sources thing
steam is steam after all, you need that to play steam games
a thing i dont like is that oculus makes you add some DRM
you need to do oculus DRM checks on your game
mighty carbon
you don't need Steam
wicked oak
works offline, but still
mighty carbon
DRM is cracked easily
mighty carbon
it's not about DRM, but more about limited monetization options
heady parrot
vblanco if you dont do those then people can just pirate your game super easy 😃
heady parrot
"Oh thats a neat game, can you zip it up for me?"
mighty carbon
you know there are a lot of super successful games that aren't on Steam ?
mighty carbon
Like all Blizzard games, LoL, etc.
wicked oak
that was also becouse steam didnt accept something like minecraft those years
well, blizzard is stupidly huge
and LOL too
mighty carbon
they weren't huge initially
everyone starts small
none of the new Epic games is on Steam
heady parrot
blizzard, EA, Ubi and Epic all have their own stores, which as a user I hate 😃
wicked oak
LoL team was the Dota team
part of it
Dota, at those tyimes, was multimillon players daily
mighty carbon
while Steam is essential for non-VR games (which is arguable), VR market hasn't formed yet, so might as well try breaking off independently
@wicked oak they all started small, made groundbreaking product, and because they weren't on Steam, they were able to get all that investment as they don't have to share with Valve
storm vortex
A good mix is to release on Steam and your own store. Have more benefits of your own store and people will buy direct. That's what happened with me and DCS World. Then you get the potential traffic of Steam too. ( Should be clear I didn't make DCS but I found out about it on Steam but then migrated to their store )
mighty carbon
@heady parrot I personally don't care much about how many storefronts are there.. I have Steam and Origin and MS and it never bothered me.
@storm vortex I had the same, turned out to be such a royal pita. Eventually everyone who bought from me direct asked for Steam keys. So, it's either Steam all the way or standalone all the way.
and the only reason I have to go standalone is due to how I want to monetize and what content I want to include
storm vortex
Yeah DCS stopped with generating Steam keys but you can use Steam keys in their store. I wish they would because I like Steam tracking my hours cause I'm weird like that.
mighty carbon
why isn't there SMAA x4 in UE4 :/ Suppose to look very close to MSAA x4
and would work with deferred
@heady parrot Is there a way to switch that option for Oculus via registry ?
heady parrot
I dont know if you can run a Vive game without SteamVR/Steam being present
it will open SteamVR
storm vortex
Steam doesn't have to be running but it will start SteamVR.
heady parrot
can you install SteamVR without Steam?
storm vortex
DCS World uses SteamVR without steam
I haven't tried installing it that way since I already have steam installed, but I do use the non steam release
mighty carbon
heady parrot
his original question was releasing a game without a direct reliance on the stores/platforms
storm vortex
I would guess you have to install Steam to get SteamVR
mighty carbon
why do I need SteamVR? Is it like Oculus runtime stuff (a driver?) ?
heady parrot
yes
storm vortex
It's the runtime. You can use it wihtout Steam running but then the dashboard portion of steam will be gone
mighty carbon
I see
I really hope Steam replies to me with positive answer.. I'd rather not go through the same process setting up my own store, e-commerce, etc.
okay, got reply from Steam
\o/
wintry escarp
"stop calling us, we have enough stalkers"
mighty carbon
basically I wanted to see if steam does subscription model (oculus doesn't). They do, but they advise against it.
heady parrot
Ok, the crash forward/msaa crash I was referring to only happens in Debug Engine (source) builds.. so probably doesnt affect most of you :)
But debug + forward + msaa + vs preview in editor = crash
I've submitted a bug report for it
heady parrot
yes, it still smudges fine detail like its being motion blurred
fine lines bleed into other lines etc
its because the HMD is constantly moving so much, you dont have that problem with non-VR games
mighty carbon
from what I just read on the forums, forward will lack a lot of major features.. So if you want all the rendering goodies in VR, deferred would be the only way to go for a loooooong time
dynamic shadows will remain deferred and MSAA doesn't play well with them, so they will remain disabled
(when using forward)
heady parrot
most of those feature aren't that important for VR games, but Epic isnt done.. they will add the missing features over the next two releases or so
mighty carbon
highly unlikely
heady parrot
yes the dynamic shadows is the big one missing
eh? they said that in the livestream yesterday 😛
heady parrot
the forward renderer still uses bits of the deferred pipeline, so instead of doing shadows in one pass he's talking about a hybrid solution?
I dont see a problem with this 😃
but right now dynamic shadows from moveable lights dont work at all, that needs to be fixed
mighty carbon
got it
heady parrot
but yes from what he's writing it sounds like they havent solved it yet 😃
mighty carbon
how do you guys do PR for your VR games? (I am sure CCP forks over a truck load of money, so I am more interested in poor indie tactics 😉 )
mighty carbon
as if it's a budgetary solution
silk lodge
best pr right now is wom
storm vortex
Give copies to youtubers to play
silk lodge
^^
storm vortex
I find most of my indie games by watching Robbaz (he gets a lot of hate but I find him funny for some reasson)
dusk vigil
You're welcome : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JqS9pBgBw_xYuEb3dwsAVkCBonud50MP8ZtYBqYw-iY/edit#gid=0
mighty carbon
how do you find youtubers with numbers and who is willing to take on your game? (in the past any small youtuber would be eager to do that, but slightly bigger guys didn't care)
thx @dusk vigil
silk lodge
you make a really fun game
dusk vigil
Make a nice e-mail. Use Mailchimp. Have one good image, a link to video maybe, and naturally a key all ready in the mail.
Be clear of what system you support.
May seem obvious but I state them anyway
mighty carbon
aye, gotcha
dusk vigil
If your game is good enough to get a review on a nice big site like RockPaperShotgun you will be looking strong. Otherwise, if it has something special, you might get viral without effort, like Climbey is doing ok despite 0 marketing
mighty carbon
@silk lodge what's fun for one, might not be so for another.. You never know. I am just saying when I was doing it in 2011-12, it was a royal pita to get big guys to even try the damn thing.. TotalBiscuit was the only one who did it (which didn't come out right on first take, but oh well).
dusk vigil
I take keys to games gladly in trade for good advice : )
silk lodge
psst: do you have beach ball valley yet?
dusk vigil
We run a VR hub, they are not for my personal use but for about 20 Finnish devs
We made a steam account which we keep topped up with about 10 new games a month. Wish I had more time to play them all
mighty carbon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZU0Vy7Ugl8 << that's not zero marketing 😉
dusk vigil
He spent 0 on marketing. Of course he gets youtubers, good for him
He also spent very little effort on marketing afaik
silk lodge
he's also got a rad game
mighty carbon
@dusk vigil When I have my game, I'll gladly give you keys 😄 Right now I only have non-VR game released (and trying to wrap up a spin off for it).
dusk vigil
That is most critical.
silk lodge
I bought it because there's constantly 20-40 players in it
and my friends spam me about it
dusk vigil
Goodonya motorsep. Take note also that Valve may give you a 'free pass' past greenlight if you have a nice game.
mighty carbon
I already have publishing account, so I get free pass no matter what 😉
mighty carbon
Steel Storm
dusk vigil
Good stuff. Mine is Kumoon. Bit of a commercial failure but got my foot in the VR scene door
dusk vigil
10k dollars
not like 0, but not like happy happy joy joy
Learned a lot making it though, as one does
Used an odd engine called Shiva for it too
had to roll my own plugins
Luckily there was some people sharing that interest
mighty carbon
yeah, $10k isn't bad unless you were working on it full time
dusk vigil
mighty carbon
I found it on Google, first page too
wicked oak
10k is what i want to get with my own vr game
dusk vigil
Fulltime, about a year and a half in total
wicked oak
and i would be happy
ah, alright
and you werent contacted by oculus or similar
?
devs that are more time tended to get contacted by oculus or vive
dusk vigil
Oh sure I have now got a very nice contacts with all the bizniz
Got Oculus Touch ages ago
wicked oak
i didnt becouse by the time i got VR stuffs it was late august
wicked oak
cool
dusk vigil
It looks like a simple little game but there was just shitloads of stuff to learn with VR
And it was before tracked controllers
wicked oak
my style is to try to do games faster
arcade style
current game, DWVR, has around 2 months of development
but it builds on a game before it that wasnt VR, wich had 3 months dev time
i think small VR games for cheap, often, is the way to go right now
at least as a starving small indie
dusk vigil
Yeah it would probably have been wiser to release earlier, gauge interest, and maybe even drop it and start something else. On the other hand, I have gotten a fair bit of respect in the local circles for pulling off a decent game with 0 budget
Even if it didnt make a hit
graceful junco
What do you consider a decent development time for a small VR game?
wicked oak
you will find tons of "no budget" guys here
my budget is 0 too
i think motorsep also has no budget for the vr stuffs too
i would give it 2-3 months
dusk vigil
With VR, you can get away with going to Early Access as soon as you have solid framerate and solid core gameplay I would say
wicked oak
if you are stupidly fast, 1 month
dusk vigil
Depends on the game
graceful junco
I'm at about 5 months now. Solo indie dev full fime.
dusk vigil
Sure
wicked oak
and im planning early access soon
storm vortex
@wicked oak Do you make your games on the side or as full time?
dusk vigil
PM me
wicked oak
my case is strange
im still a student
yet i study little to nothing
so most of my time is actually gamedev or freelancing
storm vortex
ah so you have time on your side then
wicked oak
lots
the thing is that im a computer science student
and i already know most of the stuff
due to the gamedev things
storm vortex
I can squeeze about 50 hours a week working on my stuff after work and on weekends but hard to make lots of progress with that
wicked oak
so i just go to the class on subjects that i know i dont know, or on days where you are obligated to go
mighty carbon
50 hrs a week isn't enough for you @storm vortex ? o.O
wicked oak
and every now and then for those subjects i know i do well
but sometimes it backfires
i almost fail GPU programming with a 98% on the final exam
storm vortex
It cuts into sleep if I do more than that.
mighty carbon
geez
wicked oak
i knew i knew the subject from the start, so i didnt go to class
at all
just went to final exam, got the highest mark of the clasroom, and left
mighty carbon
I was working on my game less than 8 hrs a day when I did it part time.
I would hate to work 50 hrs a week :/
storm vortex
I'm doing it as a hobbie though. So easy to get off work and work on it till midnight or 1ish
mighty carbon
currently I can only get maybe 2-3 hrs a day after day job, if I am lucky
storm vortex
I'm new to Unreal though so learning everything still
wicked oak
on the work side, i only take freelance off-site part-time jobs
becouse im getting VR jobs
and often, i can just copypaste what i already have from a prototype or a game, and call it a day
protip, never delete code
mighty carbon
so, 10 hrs during work week here (worst care scenario) + 16 hrs during weekend, if I have that kind of free weekend
I wish I had 40 hrs a week to work on my game 😃
storm vortex
Yeah I've had free weekends the last few so i've been a bit more lucky with free time. I took a week of vacation to start really working on my game too. So that gave me a big boost.
graceful junco
How do you guys handle social media stuff? Twitter, facebook, etc? Do you post progress on your games frequently to get some hype going?
I find it very hard to post stuff regularly. I'd rather continue working on the game than spending time making gifs/videos to post
storm vortex
I plan to post on reddit and share stuff with friends once I have more stuff worth sharing.
brittle patrol
Hey guys, just joined the chat tonight, pleased to meet you all.
storm vortex
This chat room has been very informative though.
silk lodge
ahoy!
wicked oak
@graceful junco Badly
graceful junco
True, been mostly reading here for the past few months, learning lots of things 😃
wicked oak
kind of disaster level badly
mighty carbon
hola @brittle patrol , welcome
wicked oak
bad
im @mad_triangles , and its a bad excuse for a indie social media twitter
anyway, i think twitter is not that much useful. Ive heard facebook is a LOT better
and of course, youtube and reddit
graceful junco
hehe, still more than I've got (@VROverstuffed) 😄
mighty carbon
Twitter worked okay for me, but you gotta post in the right time and have right folks following you
Facebook didn't do crap for me, but I guess I am not one of those youngsters who lives on Facebook 😃
I am not anti-social media per se, but I don't see a reason to post every 5 min on it.
graceful junco
yeah, I've got 0 succes on facebook too.
mighty carbon
I am planning on trying paid ads on Facebook
graceful junco
Twitter seems to be a lot friendlier to people just starting out, with no followers. Random people actually get to see your stuff, if you get retweeted.
mighty carbon
Google AdWords didn't work for me, but Facebook just might
YouTube is okay I guess.
graceful junco
What subreddit is the most active for VR games?
storm vortex
I visit r/vive
silk lodge
I follow anybody who just does vr stuff on twitter
r/vive is great for the community pulse
storm vortex
virtualreality is another good one too as is oculus of course
wicked oak
virtualreality is the small one
oculus and vive are similar in size
right now, oculus is full of happy people waiting their Touch, and vive is fulll of jelly people saying that Touch doesnt have roomscale or that "but excclusives"
storm vortex
pcmasterrace gets lots of traffic but a slightly toxiic crowd and not vr specific but i see lots of clips from VR games in there
wicked oak
yes, pcmasterrace is HUGE
biggest pc gaming subreddit
and tons of vr people on it
of course, not like vr subreddits
but pcmasterrace stuff can get into r/all
silk lodge
don't expect anybody to like anything on pcmr unless it's really great and bashes consoles and has rgb lighting
wicked oak
i can do a gif of my game with the weapons changing color
uhm, i totally should do that
rainbow rifles
and laser sword
graceful junco
Lol, I can totally do some gifs with color changing character and objects too. 😄 takes notes
mighty carbon
smells like Vive's locker room now 😃
mighty carbon
r/oculus and r/gearvr exist too btw
silk lodge
I'm 4x tweets vs followers
mighty carbon
r/gearvr is for Gear VR
wicked oak
ill post on the psvr subreddit too
silk lodge
I just gotta stop doing secret contract work
wicked oak
becouse my game already works on a PSVR
i never like when the consumer for a game project is like "nda" and stuff
i mean, if it was an actual good game or big project
like half life 3
then might be
but for a random indie/midsize team?
ffs you need people talking about it, not to keep it in secret
silk lodge
it's not game projects!
it's coporate experiences
on the plus side, I get to push the high end with 1080 as the target card
mighty carbon
NDA is important
wicked oak
it was a great experience, you fly through the veins and stuff like that
mighty carbon
you can sign NDA and still talk about the project, depending on what's in the NDA
mighty carbon
I am sure Sony's NDA is super prohibitive
graceful junco
./random info. I once applied for a student job at Roche. Didn't get it.
wicked oak
definitely. I even have a "user code" on every single file i download
there is a watermark
on every single pdf i get from the documentation
mighty carbon
lol, overkill
fresh laurel
Rumor it has the power of a Skylake CPU
wicked oak
ive heard 8 real cores
fresh laurel
8 cores 16 threads
wicked oak
at good clocks
fresh laurel
Yep
wicked oak
with good IPC
fresh laurel
They will yeah
wicked oak
becouse a good intel 8core is a fuckton of cash
fresh laurel
with the Zen Line
Sorry to hear @wicked oak
😦
Like I have heard that they have a 16 core CPU Planned
silk lodge
I don't like intel, so I only have the 6 core. I really would like to go back to amd 😃
fresh laurel
ALL THEM CORES!
silk lodge
competition has been needed for a while
fresh laurel
^
wicked oak
for the last 5 years
fresh laurel
What @silk lodge said
storm vortex
They need to up their game with their graphics cards too
wicked oak
my i7 2600k overclocked is still an awesome CPU
fresh laurel
VEGA is going to be interesting
wicked oak
and i wouldnt get better i spend 800 dollars on the upgrade, still overclock it
and even then, only like 10-15%
fresh laurel
Something should come out this month from AMD
silk lodge
yeah
wicked oak
im not going to spend 800-1000 on a upgrade for a 15%
fresh laurel
From rumors I have been hearing
silk lodge
the only reason I have a 6850 is so I can run 40 pcie lanes
fresh laurel
Woah
silk lodge
but it does compile those shaders faster 😃
fresh laurel
I bet
silk lodge
and lighting baking
fresh laurel
Yah
silk lodge
it's nice gpu rendering on 3 cards
the rig has definitely paid for itself
I'm curious if the 1080tis are gonna be oc'd to run faster than titans
mighty carbon
when it comes out, we'll if it worth all the hype
no game supports 8 cores and 16 threads
2 and 2 is what usually supported
silk lodge
multithreaded physics support is interesting
mighty carbon
Intel is still #1 based on Steam h/w survey and 2-core CPUs still dominate the market
silk lodge
and extra cores for streaming / mr is nice
heady parrot
well, PhysX isnt even hardware accelerated in UE4 😃
silk lodge
@heady parrot it is on my computer.
mighty carbon
so, by the time trend shifts to AMD, it will be a few years and by then Intel might beat AMD to it yet again
heady parrot
did you change the integration?
silk lodge
running the nvidia builds for reasons.
heady parrot
ahh 😃
silk lodge
it's glorious
heady parrot
yeah there seem to be loads of politics involved for doing anything that puts one vendor ahead of the other 😦
silk lodge
I can't do the stuff I want to do with amd, and at the heart of it, I'm making games for myself. I'll include non cool looking options, but I do want awesome stuff in there
heady parrot
AMD benefits loads from forward rendering in UE4 though 😃
I totally get you puzzabug 😃
fresh laurel
^
silk lodge
I do wish we all could run realtime volumetric fire and 1m particle hybrid grid water sims
but that takes another gpu
but it's super fun in vr
heady parrot
have you look at their next gen solver yet? the GPU one based on PhysX 3.4?
heady parrot
@fresh laurel That would be very very cool 😃
fresh laurel
^
AMD just needs to get it working on their side
I posted on the AMD sub reddit and got a reply from OTOY
Which is cool
It is in AMDs hands now from what I remember
silk lodge
if we could somehow run flex or flow across multiple amd gpus, I would probably have to do a 7 gpu water cooled vr playbox
silk lodge
if they get fast cuda emulation, that would be super nice
fresh laurel
Yeah same
😄
Wonder what ever happened to that
I mean If they updated it with VR Ready parts
They would have a major winner
heady parrot
yeah nothing really happened with that, but it did get manufacturers to make VR ready computers I guess
also Fiji didnt work out as well as expected for VR :/
fresh laurel
😦
silk lodge
I'm not sure if I want to get a wireless vr adaptor or a battery vr pc
does anybody know how many channels you can have for wireless vr?
fresh laurel
I am not sure tbh
clever sky
Clickbait as hell title.
'people won't care if VR dies, because they haven't tried it yet'. No shit sherlock
wintry escarp
ive tried it now
clever sky
What did you try?
wintry escarp
gearvr, before that all I had was cardboard
clever sky
Ah yeah.
Well, the jump from Gear VR to Rift/gamepad is about the same jump you get from cardboard to gear VR
and the same again once you get room scale with motion controllers 😃
wintry escarp
is daydream a jump, or about the same as gearvr
clever sky
It's... better.
But... half way?
You get a little pointer controller
It's not a full motion controller
wintry escarp
so daydream is quite a bit better? or just the pointer
clever sky
but it's much better than gamepad or the temple thing
Well you don't get positional tracking on DayDream either.
wintry escarp
I couldn't justify the extra £300 to go from geavr to pixelxl/daydream
clever sky
so it's pretty similar. I've just heard the headset is more comfortable
Different class of games
And more importantly, daydream has native youtube and streetview support
real needle
so i got the depth sensing working
itl over lay you in front of or behind objects using kinect
mighty carbon
got my website up 😃
@clever sky I bet neither eye tracking nor face tracking is coming to Daydream View
real needle
any ideas on how to compensate for the offset of the depth camera and color camera on the kinect?
Does anyone have information regarding viveport and what online subsystem settings to use?
mighty carbon
btw, does Valve / HTC give out Vives to devs, like Oculus ?
storm vortex
At one point you could request the Vive Pre but that was before it was released. I'm not sure about now. I bought my own.
mighty carbon
I see
silk lodge
@mighty carbon yes, they're still giving out vives
mighty carbon
@silk lodge got a contact info at Valve by chance ?
silk lodge
maybe! watcha working on?
mighty carbon
not working on it right now (wrapping up non-VR project for Steam), but will be working on reboot for my old game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofzku7GZ0_w
(recorded by one of the alpha users; my own videos are boring 😛 )
storm vortex
@mighty carbon are you going to port it to VR? Some games like Vanishing Realms but later maps would be pretty interesting to me.
mighty carbon
yeah, VR
but different premise / story, more action oriented
(at least that's the idea)
storm vortex
That sounds pretty cool
mighty carbon
I'd have to find a partner-in-crime, so I could focus on art/design
@silk lodge so, am I worthy of getting contact info from Valve to get Vive for development ? 😏
silk lodge
I was trying to think of the e-mail address
odd garnet
Does anyone remember the tutorial that was posted for a portal style blueprint?
Essentiall the person put a square over their head and it teleported them to another location seemlessly
mighty carbon
ha, @opal bobcat , you are chatting from the future !
opal bobcat
heh
mighty carbon
"Tomorrow at 12:00 AM"
opal bobcat
says today 10:00pm for me, weird
mighty carbon
never saw such date/time stamp before 😃
opal bobcat
i came from the future to give showzer that link
mighty carbon
that figures
granite jacinth
Yo, any of you ever scale your pawn super small? So world to meters is ridiculously small, like 2.3 ish territory?
I can't get the "right" scaling for my controllers 😭
To get them back up to size
anytime they go under 50% of original size, they go poof
anything 50%+, way too big 😉
digital marlin
Victor I'm working on a project in a similar fashion
The player goes big though, not small. Not sure if that's a big diff.
clever sky
For the clipping plane it is
wicked oak
@granite jacinth if you doing that, then scale the environment up
just leave the scale as normal, but make everything like if its made for gigants
empty sundial
Is SteamVR auto-booting for anyone else when opening the editor?
wicked oak
yes
in fact, if you close steamvr it will alt-f4 the editor
and nuke it without letting you save
digital marlin
yoyo
For a single player game / experience that involves character inventory, would you use an interface for the Level BP?
clever sky
You could
Although interface is more of a thing where you need many things to have the same call but not necessarily do the same things.
wicked oak
interfaces are basically to do multiple hierarchies
for example you have a Usable interface, that defines a "on used" call
then you add it to an AActor, or to an ACharacter, or to a AStaticMeshActor
brittle patrol
A structure would probably be better in an inventory case.
Have a look here
http://shootertutorial.com/2015/06/06/how-to-create-inventory/
mighty carbon
I sure hope they will come through with UE4 plugin
currently it's the only positional tracking solution for Gear VR / Daydream
mighty carbon
dunno, looked pretty solid on one of their youtube videos
of course it will not capture subtle movements human body produces
hard light
half a centimeter isn't enough
if you're tracking a headset you need way more accuracy
you'll notice the inaccuracy with head movements and it's really not going to feel right
mighty carbon
hmm.. I believe you
clever sky
To elaborate, half cm tracking is ok if you're only looking at things a certain distance out. But if you look at things close enough; which you definetly can when you stick your face up to them, made possible with head tracking - then you're going to very quickly tell that things are moving in steps
or at least feel off due to lack of subtle movement cues been picked up
wintry escarp
40m2 seems a very niche market, I have about 8m2 here
mighty carbon
@clever sky I guess we have to wait when either Samsung releases new Gear VR or until these guys will release their dev kits https://twitter.com/LYRobotix
clever sky
Gonna have to wait for carmack to crack the problem.
Peripherals on top of peripherals is not a real market.
mighty carbon
he said he didn't crack it
clever sky
At least in the consumer space 😛
mighty carbon
the vision team did
clever sky
For Gear VR?
mighty carbon
For that standalone Rift
and it's too heavy computations for current gen of smartphones, so no, it won't make it into Gear VR
clever sky
Oh yeah. But AFAIK, carmack still working on Gear VR as his baby
mighty carbon
yeah, but not on the tracking
mighty carbon
I don't really know what he is doing. Maybe just overall polish.
clever sky
Bit disappointing to hear.
clever sky
But I guess... if Google hasn't achieved it with the Lytro team
who can add additional dedicated hardware to make the problem easier to crack
mighty carbon
it would have to be something like Tango, but in Gear VR
mighty carbon
this way phones don't have to get more expensive and bulky
IMO they should offload anything VR related into Gear VR and let phones be phones (except 4k screen, AI and VR software)
this way there are plenty of resources for rendering and gameplay computations, and tracking, etc. is done by Gear VR
if they have inside out tracking and some kind of motion tracking in the next Gear VR and it costs $150 instead of $100, I'll buy it
maybe even at $200
(with motion controller included)
clever sky
Yeah. Probably would be a good move
mighty carbon
I wish they had numbers for S7 units sold
clever sky
Bring it closer to parity with PCVR, even if it sells less
It'd be better for the entire ecosystem
because the attach rate would be hire due to more compelling experiences
mighty carbon
I think S7 will be the bottom line when Android 7.1 hits it and Vulkan will have whatever it needs for Gear VR to utilize it. S6 is too weak at this point and Note 4 shouldn't even be supported by now, IMO
clever sky
Tracked mobile VR + a couple of rotational daydream controllers would be pretty effective in emulating a lot of experiences
mighty carbon
well, to be fair, a lot of games can be made using gamepad and you won't miss motion controller
clever sky
Not proper PCVR games
er. Roomscale
At minimum my movement system needs rotational controllers 😛
mighty carbon
think of properly done mecha and flight sims.. You can control machine with gamepad and you can use touch pad for interactions inside cockpit (since it's right there, you don't have to find your motion controller 😉 ). That would be seated experience.
clever sky
Otherwise the forward vector gets to be your face. And that sucksssss
mighty carbon
well, you can make cross platform games if you take into consideration platform's limitations
clever sky
But you can only cater for so many limitations before you end up making fundamentally different, or worse, fundamentally compromised experiences.
mighty carbon
nah
clever sky
Like, the difference between Touch and Vive controllers, no worries.
mighty carbon
you have to design around those systems
clever sky
Difference between VR and smartphone.... well you're no longer dealing with the same platform!
Difference between room scale VR with positionally tracked controllers and Gear VR with touch pad is nearly as big a gulf D:
To cater for both platforms with one game, you'd have to significantly limit what can be done on the roomscale VR side of things.
mighty carbon
let's say you have a game that is about flying small assault ships. On PC, you can get out and be a person. On Gear VR, you can't get out, but you can send a drone out to explore and communicate with the world and other characters or players.
so if you confine combat to vehicles, there is no disadvantage to Gear VR players in PvP mode
clever sky
Well... I think there's definetly potential for asymmetrical platform play in multiplayer VR
especially for the metaverse.
But at the same time, that can only be a subset of experiences.
mighty carbon
you can't expect to have Robo Recall to cater both platforms of course
but it's not
it's like saying mobile games are so limited that it's frustrating that you can't play on mobile same way you do on PC
with that mindset, sure
but you don't make games for mobile same way you do for PC
clever sky
How you gonna play something like Overwatch or battlefield 1 on smartphone?
mighty carbon
you are looking at it as "there are existing PC VR games and unless Gear VR has motion controls, you can't play the same game on both"
instead of looking at it "I am going to make a game designed in such a way that both platforms can play it and have on par experience, and PC VR will also has additional extra experience"
like I said, that won't work for everything, but it will work for special cases
mighty carbon
I am looking at Gear VR as supplemental platform
clever sky
And limit the things you can do without that limitation.
mighty carbon
let's say I am working on that dungeon game for PC VR
clever sky
with integration into one system
clever sky
Like, oh, they're letting me play as drones in overwatch on the smartphone!
Complete asymmetry.
mighty carbon
at some point that's what everyone will be doing as throw away experiences will get old pretty soon
clever sky
Really interesting concept, but you're not going to get any sort of equivalency between PC players and smartphone players.
So not worth trying to make them equivalent.
Anyway, gotta get back on task. Chat later
mighty carbon
think of it this way - when you play SP, you can have bipedal enemies and vehicles. It doesn't change overall experience for you as you still combat both using different tactics. Same thing when it comes to PvP with Gear VR vs PC VR players. You simply put them into the same combat mechanics, and also let PC VR users have mechanics for PvP on PC VR.
like The Division - you have regular game and Dark Zone.
it's not different for VR, just more work.
silk lodge
the cooler on the zotac one as well as the board seems really huge
the evga one is also big
but evga comes with rad rogers
real needle
zotac one has a marginally higher boost clock
I got the depth finished so now i just need to make everything look better
mighty carbon
@silk lodge but, isn't good cooler is what 1070 needs? I am not going to OC, but I read somewhere that for those GPUs good cooling is critical
ok, Valve said fu to free Vive 😦
hopefully Oculus wants to be my friend
wicked oak
oculus is MUCH friendlier
i sent similar email to oculus and steam vr guys
steam vr guys basically answered "go buy one , fuck you"
oculus gave me 4 free headsets
real needle
thats cool, was gonna request some from oculus pretty soon here, good to know
mighty carbon
I am guessing I am gonna have to go with 1060 instead of 1070
this way I'll be sure to not make game that runs poorly on lower end hardware
(and save some money)
(I should put it as "lower end" 😉 )
wicked oak
uhm, ez karma on reddit
just got 150
wrote a lenhgty thesis about the 3 main headsets
that way i prepare for when i push the trailer of my game to vr reddits
as i already have lots of karma on them
wintry escarp
150 free headsets?
mighty carbon
is this a good one http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487261
fresh laurel
@mighty carbon - Just PMed the guy about the UE4 plugin for VR Tracker
mighty carbon
👍
hopefully they figure it out and not get bog down with FOSS politics
(although I don't see how anything for Unity can be FOSS either)
wicked oak
150 karma
wintry escarp
anyone played with the new LOD system?
could it effectively reduce a desktop quality gfx game to mobile gfx? or would you still need to do it all manually for decent results
mighty carbon
wtf?! if you check the link I posted, the GPU is ~$1000 now
ha, that's because it's sold out
o.O
wintry escarp
new NVidia gpus were stupidly priced, yet people still rushed to buy them
mighty carbon
no
wintry escarp
expect next NVidia gpus to cost even more
mighty carbon
so, just like with domain squatting, some immoral people buy it, then try reselling it at x5 more
1060 is what I linked
1080 is the most expensive GPU
raven halo
mighty carbon
\o/
fresh laurel
YAY
mighty carbon
btw, I wonder if TAA is now going to be usable with foliage and vehicles
I recall seeing people reporting horrible artifacts
(although Paragon has foliage and they don't have any issues as far as I can tell)
opal bobcat
so anyone get there touch's yet?
mighty carbon
vblanco
inland acorn
I currently have the issue that some shadows are more shown different on the right eye than on the left one. On the right eye they are more like black and white grids. Rebuilding everything does not solve this. has anyone experienced the same? Vive user here
opal bobcat
i have that with my cursor pointer
where it looks ok on half ot he screen but in the vr preview window or the other eye its weird
inland acorn
and another one that drives me crazy: Can I lock the landscapes position? Once I am in the VR Editor Mode I change it with every second click which is more than frustrating
ahhh.. got it. looks like I can assign a shortcut to it
storm vortex
@inland acorn that was bugging me too. Do you lock the layer or something?
inland acorn
Add "Lock" Shortcut to lock compnent movement in editor
@storm vortex I hope that helps
storm vortex
@inland acorn Thanks!
inland acorn
you can see that the transform settings in the details get darker when the lock is active..
that seems to be the only indicator
storm vortex
Yeah that's exactly what I needed. I had the same issue when using the VR editor. I kept moving stuff I didn't want to move
clever sky
I think... Session Buddy might be the best chrome plugin ever 😛
This might seem unrelated to VR, but it's totally related!
If like me you have a habit of keeping 100+ chrome tabs open scattered across 10 windows
That shit slows down your comp man!
And session buddy lets you save and open all the open tabs later.
real needle
Does anyone have any experience with shipping on viveport? There are supposed to be developer forums but I can't find them (I definitely have a dev account since I've pushed a build to the store)
mighty carbon
e-mail Valve and they will direct you
(I miss times when a tech would literally guide you through, 1 on 1 via e-mail)
real needle
Valve? Wouldn't HTC be a better fit?
We do have a conversation going between one of the marketing ladies there, but it's the weekend so I'm not expecting a response from them
I basically need to find info on how I would be able to pull friends data like I can do with steam
clever sky
Just tried Orbus VR MMO
pretty cool, even if janky.
Also they had trackpad locomotion
Feelings the mild effects of motion sickness now that I've taken off the HMD. Didn't realize I could still get this!
But, I guess that just means that the locomotion systems I've come up with really does work.
wintry escarp
I thought motion sickness means your locomotion needs work
clever sky
Well, there's been a counter-movement lately from people that want more immersion at the expense of motion sickness.
Because you can acclimatize
clever sky
And they're just all, fuck the noobs, I want my free motion!
Well, I don't know if you have had enough experience with the full range of VR stuff to be able to say that categorically.
But essentially, acclimatizing is something that needs to be built up slowly
Over the course of weeks and months.
But if you have hardware that just can't make it gradual... like the DK1 for example, then it'll feel like it can't be achieved.
mighty carbon
I admit I am a bit more tolerant to VR after using Gear VR on and off for months, but nowhere near where I can say I am immune (hell, even measurably more tolerant) to motion sickness.
tbh, I am not willing to spend years acclimatizing
it's not worth my time
clever sky
When I say acclimatizing, you're not spending years trying to get used to free motion.
It's just you use it naturally because its fun
mighty carbon
if I was a fighter pilot or something of that nature, I'd have to do that
lol, no, it's not fun
clever sky
And sometimes you push the boundaries of what you're capable of. You recognize your limits and pull yourself out when you feel anything
mighty carbon
I played Dreadhalls for 5 min and I didn't want to put on HMD for weeks
clever sky
And over time, that resistance builds up.
Yeah, so that's going from nothing to 60 in 0 seconds.
And when I say fun, I don't mean inducing motion sickness
I mean just playing around with VR in general
Anyway, afk
mighty carbon
teleporting / dashing is as fun
moving in a vehicle in VR is somewhat fun (when you are inside, having static point of reference)
moving as in non-FPS is definitely not, no matter how to want to present it 😃
entertainment needs to be effortless
clever sky
See, getting used to vehicular VR is a kind of acclimatization
Because not everyone can do that!
mighty carbon
it's quite different, at least at short tries
wintry escarp
looking at dreadhalls trailer, seems to repeatedly break my no moving sideways rule
mighty carbon
btw, driving car doesn't make me sick at all. However riding on the front seat and looking at my phone does, pretty quickly
riding on the back seat makes me sick slightly, even if I look forward and if I don't, I can get pretty sick
clever sky
Yeah, some people can shift their vestibular expectation to the frame of reference of the car (subconsiously, not a conscious process).
But some people can't.
Like, I don't seem to be able to do so that well, and thus get relatively motion sick when driving around in P Cars
And my sister definetly can't, as she gets violently motion sick within a few seconds
But other people are happy as clams in cockpit games
mighty carbon
that's why teleporting should be the only method for games aimed at mass market
(unless your revolutionary system will make it all different 😉 )
clever sky
Well, here's hoping!
Currently we risk a divergence between games for the hardcore and games for casual VR players
mighty carbon
Locomotion is not the thing that makes VR hardcore or not IMO 😃
clever sky
It's currently an important point of differentiation
more experienced VR players want free motion because it allows more immersion
Less experienced VR players don't want to get motion sick.
If you don't have an option, then you're catering to one or another. If you have both, you're faced with balance problems
Which are tractable, but still not inconsiderable
rare violet
Hey guys, does anyone know how one goes about getting the HMD Position & Orientation from c++? I would like to go a route other than one that retrieves the same data as the blueprint get position & orientation, because in the context im using this, that blueprint does not send the data back (hmd enabled false)
mighty carbon
hmm.. I am surprised some people not interested in VR :/
clever sky
Well, in it's current state, it's somewhat understandable.
It's like not been interested in dialup internet or 1995 mobile phones.
mighty carbon
also, I still don't get why people get stuck on "Luckey supported Trump". If Sony/Valve/Google execs commit crime (which Palmer didn't do), would they suddenly stop using Android phones, threw away their PS4 and deleted Steam ?
clever sky
That one's complicated.
But you gotta remember Luckey was seen as the golden child of VR. A hero icon.
And when that icon turns out to be poisonous to the general political belief of people at the bleeding edge of tech...
mighty carbon
maybe for kids and childish minded people.. Or people with emotional issues :/
clever sky
well, some people gonna feel betrayed over it.
I mean, you could say that, but who isn't free of childish behaviour and or has emotional issues in some respect?
Certainly not the people that won't admit to their own fallibility.
rare violet
one could say supporting either hillary or trump is a bad thing honestly..
some folks don't see thru the farce of what we call a government in america
clever sky
@rare violet I've only worked with VR in BP so far unfortunately.
rare violet
thanks @clever sky I think I found at least a thread to pull on from google
couldnt find any relevant info for 3 or 4 pages
clever sky
I'm not going to say that Hillary is great... but there's definetly a false equivocation between the two.
rare violet
perhaps you would say that if you didnt know about how shady she is
clever sky
One will help perpetuate a relatively crappy status quo.
rare violet
i am in NO way supporting trump
clever sky
Perhaps you didn't know a lot of misinformation came from russian propaganda?
rare violet
first off I didnt read anything about either of them during this election season
so all my information and thoughts come from the past
clever sky
Like, not conspiracy, real life, this is what happened.
rare violet
im aware
mighty carbon
well, I care about VR.. Don't care who they vote for. Even if they commit a crime, I will still use their product as it's always bigger than individual
rare violet
im far from a conspiracy supporter
clever sky
Anyway... the point is. Trump is the inadvertant destroyer of worlds.
rare violet
inadvertant may be an overstatement hehe
clever sky
And that sounds hyperbolic, but dude is denying climate change in a period where the evidence continues to mount and is essentially unavoidable
rare violet
itll be interesting to see how this whole president thing plays out
mighty carbon
did you know that a lot of tech "invented" in US came from Nazis captured during WWII and transferred into US?!
rare violet
@mighty carbon yea, did u see project paperclip?
mighty carbon
no
rare violet
they literally brought top nazi scientists over after the war and put them in nasa and other gov agencies
clever sky
He's also already making numerous foreign policy blunders. Pissing off china repeatedly 😛
rare violet
it was declassified information a few years back
watching trump is like watching some kid who inherited a bunch of money blow it on stupid shit
wintry escarp
china need pissed off
rare violet
hehe, i can already tell this convo is gonna stir up some shit
mighty carbon
but what I am saying it, science and tech are above whatever individuals do.. Can't just throw tantrum and say "fu Oculus" just because a kid, who could very well be just a face of Oculus and in no way an inventor, supported a presidential candidate one doesn't agree with.
rare violet
maybe time to get back to work for me 😛 catch yall later
they support him because they are gonna get more money and tax breaks and whatnot
or they are maybe racist
but fuck it, the whole world of commerce is built on slavery and corruption
mighty carbon
I am not pro-Trump. I think the guy is dumb as fuck.. I am not pro-Hillary either.
rare violet
^ good call moto
clever sky
I'm not pro-hillary. I'm just not pro-fuck-everything-flip-table.
Because as satisfying as that is in the short term... it never ends well.
See the middle east spring dealio.
None of those countries have had great results post revolutions.
mighty carbon
but, what does it have to do with Rift? Carmack, Abrash and Co. made it happen, not Palmer 😃
wintry escarp
I read trump is moving his rich friends into positions of power, I bet no-one saw that coming ¬_¬
has palmer still not been seen since the news he didn't hate trump broke?
granite jacinth
I know people are ignorant in politics
mighty carbon
well, president can always be impeached
clever sky
Oh well. The best we can hope for with Trump is that he manages to cause a gentle decline of America 😛
mighty carbon
if Trump shows signs he is damaging US, he could be impeaches easily
clever sky
Which is in global terms, not the worst thing that could happen!
mighty carbon
(at least I hope it's how it works )
clever sky
That's not how it works.
Because I mean, what does 'damaging the US' even mean? That's a highly political answer.
jagged vale
is this conversation happening in #virtual-reality because you wish it wasn't real?
clever sky
Nah, it started about Palmer.
And people were equivocating between Trump and Hillary. Like we only have black or white and both are black.
wintry escarp
well we wont be seeing a sequel to Idiocracy which is a shame, that film is coming true
we now have rocket scientists fired because feminists didn't like his shirt
sad state of affairs
clever sky
Yeah, that's the kind of shit that pissed off the middle.
Fuckin' hell feminists, get your shit together. Equality is an important cause, but approaching the issue by telling everyone they're assholes is not the way to win allies.
mighty carbon
but .. but... all I was asking is why dismiss Rift if an individual exercised his first amendment ?!
granite jacinth
If you are not discussing VR matters directly, can you keep it out of there please?
clever sky
@mighty carbon Because people get emotional and irrational.
granite jacinth
Out of here*
Use lounge for the BS politic talks, or better yet, don't talk about politics
rare violet
lol
alan watts said there are squishy and pokey things in the universe...including people
mighty carbon
anyhow, I started this conversation in order to understand how to convince these nay-sayers who own DK2 and say they aren't really interested in VR
clever sky
DK2 is like a car from 1900s
mighty carbon
(and one of their arguments is Palmer)
well, I know that
but, "Palmer is an ass and I am not going to even try Rift + Touch"
clever sky
Well the retort you had initially worked. What's it matter? Do you know the political persuasions of the people behind all the products you buy?
Do you buy any nestle products?
wintry escarp
I nearly had a dk2 march 2015
clever sky
Because that CEO is a goddamn monster.
mighty carbon
nah, I don't eat junk food
clever sky
That wasn't a question directed at you specifically; merely the rhetoric to employ
mighty carbon
but again, I don't really care what CEOs do
clever sky
when faced by people that'd make that sort of BS argument.
mighty carbon
if I like product, I'll be using it
clever sky
Ultimately, when you see people throwing out BS arguments that any reasonable person can see is silly
You know that they probably don't want to have their minds changed.
Best you'll do is you'll make them feel a little foolish. Which doesn't change their opinion.
mighty carbon
maybe some people are better off staying away from VR.. The less SJW in VR - the better 😄
clever sky
Yeah, don't say that.
mighty carbon
has anyone figured a contraption to hook up cable from HMD to PC to the ceiling ?
wintry escarp
eh?
mighty carbon
so it doesn't tangle around body/legs
wintry escarp
wireless will out in 2017
mighty carbon
you know how some plants get hung to the hooks on the ceiling ? I am thinking to hand cable in the same fashion
meh, it's a gimmick
you'll have latency
and it's extra $250+
mighty carbon
I mean, you can buy it, but I'd rather hang cable 😃
anything that is sold online and actually worth buying ?
mighty carbon
I am not planning walking around, just standing and turning 360
clever sky
A lot of cons associated with it. Mainly that you have to install it into your roof and other home im(de)provement things.
Difficult to reel in the slack.
clever sky
Well... if you want to be able to move around
clever sky
and then move back in.
You're losing a large amount of the experience/value of immersive VR.
clever sky
Even just 'standing', you'll move naturally by turning up to a 1m radius.
mighty carbon
aye, so sag the cable
clever sky
Well, I guess in your use case it'd work.
Go for it! There are some /r/vive people that have already experimented with that kind of thing.
So you can crib their notes.
mighty carbon
aye, thx
so, I keep talking to that guy on the subject of Rift/Oculus and dismissal of VR, and I kid you not - it's not worth convincing people like that 🤕
so, I not even going to bother from now on, unless it's more of a lack of knowledge about the subject
clever sky
No kidding. Convincing people on the internet is a rare feat. Most of the time you're just sharpening your own rhetorical talons 😛
mighty carbon
nah, I know him in person
clever sky
Ah yeah
Well, apparently those people exist in real life too!
I think actually it's more like, in real life, people aren't as confrontational, so they'll just let it slide. On the internet, they can have enough time to come back with retorts.
mighty carbon
heh