virtual-reality

[mighty carbon]

Epic would let you know if it's user error. Happened to me plenty of times 😊

[mighty carbon]

how do you deal going through walls ?

sure it's not a problem when teleporting, but if user teleported next to the wall, and then physically walked into it ?!

(it's not an issue wit seated experience either; only with standing experience)

[heady parrot]

make the screen go black or display a warning, dont show anything beyond/inside the wall

[silk lodge]

bump the player back

there's a good example of that in the launch squad demo

[heady parrot]

that causes artificial movement

[silk lodge]

correct, but it also lets players reset their play area if they're too close to a wall

I like the idea of blackout or instakill if you walk into a wall

or let players warp through walls

[mighty carbon]

I like the idea of blackening of the screen too

and some scary voice over for that too 😛

I guess showing a UI "Send me back to the world" is a good idea too. Can teleport player to the nearest available inside area

[wintry escarp]

heh had first vr motion sickness/dizzyness

ocean rift, free swim on sea bed then look down and go sideways

with gamepad

[mighty carbon]

welcome to VR club, now that you have been initiated by motion sickness

[wintry escarp]

I'm guessing the lesson is don't go sideways in vr

[mighty carbon]

don't move in VR, period !

(without positional tracking)

[wintry escarp]

I thought that just added ability to lean forward

[mighty carbon]

you can lean anywhere and walk with positional tracking

[wintry escarp]

i didn't think that would do much for the motion sickness

[mighty carbon]

it actually does since lack of positional tracking causes mismatch between you what you vestibular system perceives and what you see

[pearl tangle]

yeah that makes a huge difference to motion sickness

even if you don't notice that moving your head 20cm doesn't move the camera your inner ear does

[clever sky]

When you know your hand presence is good; You forget to use controllers when you go to try and grab something in the virtual world you built and have been messing around with for months 😛

[mighty carbon]

😃

[pearl tangle]

it gets worse once you start to see the virtual objects around your hand in the real world :p

[pearl tangle]

http://store.steampowered.com/app/515700/

check out the teleport function on this in the 2nd video

clever idea actually

provides a bit more ambiguity in where you will end up

[clever sky]

Ugh. Straight up teleportation is a sin against VR 😛

They need dash mode in there!\

Otherwise pretty cool

[pearl tangle]

well it takes a bit of time to do this rather than instant and requires a bit of skill. I would be interesting to see how the paintball game on rec room would work with something like this

[clever sky]

Yeah, the balancing aspects of it are good

But the popping is a bit meh.

[pearl tangle]

yeah we have been doing some screwing around here with some different techniques for teleporting too. still just wish my omni treadmill would hurry up and get here and that fallout 4 vr would come out soon as well

annoying those guys stopped manufacturing their gun controller 1 to try and do their new thing on indiegogo as well

[clever sky]

Haha... ODTs... D:

Have you tried one before?

[winged shale]

just got my Daydream View today

it's pretty neat, definitely worth pumping some content into the ecosystem

[pearl tangle]

yeah its a nice little piece of kit

tough to go back to that controller though coming from the vive

[winged shale]

hehe, yes

infinitely better than any kind of blind non-motion input

like gamepad or kb+mouse

wish it did some semblance of positional tracking, but that's for another time

[pearl tangle]

yeah it would definitely help. it just became very jarring for me in the harry potter 1 having the controller stuck in a particular position when your hand had long since moved from that position

[winged shale]

I disliked the fantastic beasts thing so much

and I figured out why: it's all pre-rendered and animated as 3d-sprites

they got it so wrong when you look at the scroll when you start the game, it makes my eyes hurt because the angles they captured are so off from where my eyes are

[pearl tangle]

yeah. demoed it in the office last week though and people were loving it

amazing how these things quickly become annoying but when its your first time with the tech you are too focussed on the excitement rather than the flaws

[winged shale]

yeah! It's like when people were raving about the 'rendering capabilities and ultra realism' of Myst

have you or anyone else here developed for it yet in UE4?

I'm starting up a project right now

I have no idea how to begin though

[pearl tangle]

i have used the daydream plugin but nothing wit hthe controller

just turn on the daydream plugin and use the vr template and you are set

im not sure on the controller side though

[winged shale]

the desktop VR template?

do I select "mobile" instead of Desktop/Console?

I haven't ever devved for mobile yet so the pipeline is novel to me

[pearl tangle]

you should do mobile for all vr stuff

just need to turn off the HUD controllers

[winged shale]

cool, so how do I deploy?

also why mobile for all VR stuff, what specifically does it set

[pearl tangle]

you need to get the nvpack stuff installed and then just plug in your phone and click launch

it sets a bunch of graphics properties to default such as bloom, lens flares, motion blur etc. stuff you don't want on for VR

[winged shale]

oh, I turn those off in my other projects anyway

[pearl tangle]

yeah setting to mobile just gives you the correct default settings for VR makes things easier

[winged shale]

lol cheeky Google

press Build Number 7 times to 'become a developer'

[pearl tangle]

yeah thats been in android for years now

always needed it to enable adb stuff and GPS spoofing

[winged shale]

last time I enabled USB debugging on Android was in 2.3

I think it was just an option

[wintry escarp]

mobile is a bigger hassle, you cant test without deploying

desktop vr runs there and then

[clever sky]

You can do a decent facsimile of mobile testing on desktop

As long as you create the components that are restricted in a similar fashion.

Maybe for daydream

what you can do to remind the player of how to hold their arm

is to show them their arm to the elbow

held at the position you want it to be held in.

[silver brook]

Anyone know how I can just get the direction a mostion controller is pointing?

[clever sky]

get rotation > get forward vector > normalize

[winged shale]

GetForwardVector on any kind of rotation

it's already normalized I think

[clever sky]

Yeah fair call

[silver brook]

why must you get rotation firsT?

[winged shale]

because that's the only way you can get it...

[clever sky]

Or just drag off get forward vector

on the controller

component

[winged shale]

how else do you propose you find a facing direction?

why wouldn't you need the rotation

[clever sky]

Because the function of the component already implicitly assumes you're asking for the forward vector of the rotation component

[winged shale]

I mean in the overall calculation

it's fundamental to understanding anything about game dev

[clever sky]

Yeah. 😛

[silver brook]

Get Actor rotation?

[clever sky]

What's the context of you getting the direction?

[silver brook]

Lets say I want to add force in the direction the controller is pointing

[clever sky]

In BP, you can just drag off from the object and ask for its forward direction

[silver brook]

I'm not sure which direction is forward

[winged shale]

it's X

in the thing's local.

you know you can test these things?

[clever sky]

Also, if you drop the vive mesh into a BP actor

you can see how it's physically oriented

relative to the controller.

[silver brook]

I'm going to try using the ArcArrow they have in the VR demo

Getting the forward vector of that arrow

[clever sky]

You know you can see the axes of objects by clicking on their nameplate and hitting W, E or R right?

[silver brook]

Doesn't say which is forward though

[clever sky]

The red one

the red one is X

is forward

the green one is Y, is right. The blue one is Z is Up

[granite jacinth]

I keep thinking about a UE4 Game Math series

[winged shale]

it would be nice to have a link to slap people with

[granite jacinth]

But people would probably never watch it

[winged shale]

just, "I'm not helping you if you don't understand this: link"

[granite jacinth]

https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/BlueprintAPI/Utilities/Transformation/GetActorForwardVector/index.html

Well, that's all you need

[winged shale]

apparently it wasn't

[granite jacinth]

https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/BlueprintAPI/Utilities/Transformation/GetForwardVector/index.html

or this

Oh matheww did one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3wvhvrXrDI

[winged shale]

ugh @pearl tangle are all builds going to take 20 minutes to deploy?

[clever sky]

I'm going to talk shit about Yore for a moment.

Their hands are so broken!

Maximum jank factor!

So... you know how you have the controller, and it's all perfectly aligned with 0,0,0 and that's great

And if you have a hand mesh that's well aligned with the controller and responsive, it improves immersion and hand presence

Well. They've got these monster puppet hands

that sit on a stick off the top off the controller.

with half sleeves that come off the wrist

It's like... what are you guys even doing with hands if you're going to do it like that?

Also their menu is jank.

Click the menu button and their monster hands flip around with a scrolly ledger thing

Take a guess how you navigate that menu.

[winged shale]

it clued me off that in the trailer there was noticeable lag

[clever sky]

Also the bloody sleeve from the hand mesh clips through the menu!

So you have part of the menu obscured.

Unavoidably.

Anyway... you navigate the menu... by treating the touchpad... like a dpad.

[winged shale]

the whole thing is sloppy as fuck, I didn't even touch it

[clever sky]

I'll tell you what though. They're persistent with their grass roots marketing.

Keep spamming the channels! You'll get traction!

It just amuses me that they're trying to do all these high minded ideas

like harvesting materials and crafting stuff

and eventually use that stuff to do combat with.

But the jank factor at every level is through the roof D:

It's like playing a monty python game!

uses a hatchet to cut a tree. small complete logs fall out of the tree with each strike

Then in the crafting video, the guy is making a sword, beating a molten blade with a hammer.

Cool cool.

[winged shale]

omfg I hated that

[clever sky]

But once he's done, it's replaced immediately by the final blade, offset 10cm from the other one that he was beating.

[winged shale]

everyone's all "SO COOL SENPAI"

but none of this shit looks good or makes sense

it's garbage

[clever sky]

Haha D:

Maybe it's fun? I don't know. I didn't make it past the jank.

The control scheme is also thoroughly broken.

There's options

But that's where the good part ends D:

Actually, nah, it's not that bad.

But it does a thing where it switches the hand you use to control

and sometimes lets you teleport

I'm not sure what the conditions are for that.

I think you press down on the touchpad to teleport

and up on the touchpad to move normally.

On one hand?

And if you teleport close, it'll do a blink teleport.

If you do it far, it'll do a slow walking teleport

Not a dash teleport. A slow vection inducing one.

Like... I know that VR is a new medium and all.

But maybe try applying some of the insights gained from 30+ years of human computing interaction.

Ok. I'm done with my Yore rant. Good luck to those guys! Hope they fix their jank!

[pearl tangle]

yeah that locomotion system in yore was a bit sickness inducing for me

[winged shale]

anyone have a daydream VR controller mesh model

I just spent 30 minutes in Blender making one that was pretty great, then it crashed and I forgot to save fuuuuu

[clever sky]

Nope.

Looks simple though. I'm sure you could make it again easily! 😛

[winged shale]

😛

[clever sky]

If you want a low poly inaccurate one, I could knock one up in 2 minutes

[winged shale]

I had all the smoothing groups done well too

nah don't worry about it

[pearl tangle]

https://sketchfab.com/models/c1944c64e06544babc90e9d0aa953551

https://sketchfab.com/models/b85dc90db4c34e7aa5d345fc63291afa

it should be available in the sdk to actually

[winged shale]

so how do I do pawn stuff for the Daydream

so I don't waste 60 minutes from now uploading new attempts at the Pixel

I've got a pawn with a motioncontroller, etc. and I've placed it in my scene with auto-posess player 0, but my HMD seems to think it's getting the camera from the Origin, or something

do I need a camera component?

[clever sky]

You're scaring me from devving for daydream 😛

[winged shale]

hehehe

[clever sky]

PCVR so convenient, so luxury.

[winged shale]

it's a big PITA but once I get it working right I'll just use the Vive to prototype stuff

[clever sky]

Fair call!

[winged shale]

I can just have a pretend motioncontroller, and it will set its transform to stay in location and copy rotation, etc.

[clever sky]

How do you make a function in a level blueprint more globally accessible?

Across different maps

[winged shale]

not sure if that's possible

isn't the level blueprint tied to the scene?

[clever sky]

Yeah.

[winged shale]

you might want to move it to the gamemode

[clever sky]

Ah.

Does that support events?

[winged shale]

basically everything so yes

[clever sky]

Like trigger overlap

OK!

[winged shale]

you can make an interface for your level blueprints too

so that from your gamemode you can expect certain functions to exist

on the level blueprints

[clever sky]

Hmmm

[winged shale]

OK I got the camera shit working

now I'm stuck on figuring out how to get the motioncontroller to work

ffffuuuck you have got to be kidding me... I had to enable the stupid Google VR Motion Controller plugin

it's not included in Google VR Plugin

nor is it in the VR section of the plugins

let's see if this works

[clever sky]

This function passing between levels and game mode is messy business D:

[winged shale]

:/

[clever sky]

Oh yeah

[winged shale]

WTF is that

[clever sky]

D:

My collectible system

[winged shale]

there are so many bools D:

it's scary dad

[clever sky]

😄

It's because I don't know how to use structs yet.

But then the thought occurred to me... this is probably what structs are for 😛

Otherwise, I need a better way of doing collecitbles.

And after refactoring into the game mode, this is still what the level BP looks like...

[pearl tangle]

use data tables

custom struct with a data table for all the information

@winged shale did you get the motion controller going alright?

[short locust]

(I'm new, hello) Structs are great, they look harder to understand than they are

[pearl tangle]

hey cheese welcome

yeah structs are definitely easy to use once you understand it. and you work with structs all the time and don't realise it

a vector is just a struct of floats

thats why when you click on the outputs you can break up the struct into its components

[short locust]

Even when you fill a struct with arrays, it makes everything else so much easier that's it's worth it

I used to enjoy using 2D and 3D arrays in spreadsheets/databases, so useful

[clever sky]

Well. I'll have to take time to figure it all out once I start refactoring my stuff

Trying to get it out sooner right now 😄

[pearl tangle]

yeah i use data tables with arrays in them for everything

[clever sky]

Can you pull in data from external sources with data tables?

[pearl tangle]

yeah i managed to turn a gigantic mess of blueprints into like 10 nodes after figuring out data tables. my tower defense project became so easy to add new towers and enemies once i got it going with data tables

you can use an excel spreadsheet to control a data table

so you just press the CSV export and then import the CSV to unreal and it becomes a data table

[clever sky]

Nicee

[pearl tangle]

so you can also setup all your rules and stuff for things in excel with macros and other stuff

[clever sky]

Is there a good learning resource out there for this?

[pearl tangle]

easy example is you create levels and want scalable exp requirements for the next level

[clever sky]

Anyone done a nice tutorial on all this? 😛

[pearl tangle]

you would just create a counter down the first column and in column 2 you give it a header of EXP and put a formula on there like =(A2*1.35)

then when you export the csv its just there

the basic tutorial on epic's docs should get you in a decent spot for it

[clever sky]

Ok

[pearl tangle]

pretty much steps are

1. Create a custom struct for the elements you want. EG. color, text
2. Create an excel file with the columns having the same headers as your struct. EG. color,text
3. Export to CSV
4. Import CSV to unreal. You will get a popup asking you to select what matching struct it is. Pick your struct. It then creates a data table
5. Data table contains all the data in it and you are done

You don't need to do it in excel though anyway you can just create a data table after you have created a struct and then populate the data in there

[clever sky]

Nice. Saved that.

[short locust]

I'm currently trying to get Multiplayer VR to work, it's driving me nuts.

I found a workaround on the forum, but it doesn't look right

[clever sky]

Have you tried VRExpansionPlugin? It does multiplayer out of the box I think.

[short locust]

I haven't, I shall check, thanks

[clever sky]

It's good stuff. The unreal equivalent of VRTK or whatever community plugin the Unity guys are using.

[pearl tangle]

yeah worth a try

[short locust]

It does do multiplayer, gonna give it a try.

I'll still keep trying to fix it myself. I've been rebuilding everything myself to help learn and to customise things.

I'm making things for business rather than games, so a lot of the mechanics need to be done slightly differently.

i.e. don't need guns, but do need to interact with a lot of objects

[pearl tangle]

thats the same stuff i do

are you in the unreal enterprise program?

[clever sky]

Cool beans.

I'm just working on fundamental VR interaction things.

[short locust]

Not yet. I basically created the role/department for myself, it's all going official in January so I'll start all that then.

[pearl tangle]

hah nice thats pretty much what i did too. built up a department from the start of this year

[short locust]

Sweet.

[clever sky]

What do your companies do? I think Zoltan's in marketing?

[short locust]

Are you doing this for internal work? I'm asking because the enterprise program seems focused on pairing up companies and I don't really need that because I just work within the company

I work for a construction company, I'm making Health and Safety training at the moment.

[clever sky]

Ah yeah

Health and Safety VR training. Nice. hahah 😛

[pearl tangle]

the enterprise stuff has a lot of other things with it. I build the applications for other companies whether its for marketing or enterprise grade software usage etc

you get different licensing models, dedicated support, access to developer network etc

[short locust]

H&S in construction, big dangerous yellow things and stuff, it's actually really interesting

Ah, that's what I thought

[pearl tangle]

I was demoing a VR product at European Utility Week in Barcelona a couple of weeks back which we are looking to turn into a full product to sell to construction companies, city planners etc. all done in Unreal. so we need different kind of support and features than games developers do so about 9 months ago Epic setup a dedicated team to focus purely on enterprise stuff

the McLarren thing was the first 1 they built out to demo the capabilities

[short locust]

I went to an event at some point this year in London all about it, it was really good

[clever sky]

Oh, is that why we got the automotive materials pack? 😛

[pearl tangle]

yep and the other dozen engine features that team built just to achieve that project

[clever sky]

Nice.

[pearl tangle]

i was out in London at the Epic office there last week

was really cool to check out their lab

thats where they are heading up the enterprise side of things

[short locust]

Yeah, I have an invite for that. I'm thinking of taking them up on it when I'm down in January.

[clever sky]

Anything specific you can say about it? In terms of the coolness you're talking about 😛

[pearl tangle]

just a nice assortment of computers setup and all the VR gear and microsoft stuff. keen to setup my lab in the same way

[short locust]

My company has an open plan office policy, there is literally no room for me to set up VR

So I've used that as an excuse to work from home for the past couple of months

[clever sky]

Haha 😛

[pearl tangle]

haha yeah i pushed around a bunch of desks and configured things here quite dodgily so that we have room for a few headsets at once

[short locust]

They really don't like it, but I work hard and they have no choice. They're trying to figure out how to rearrange the desks to built me a VR space.

[clever sky]

I think the nicest pro-setup of the Vive I've seen is this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/54elt5/professional_vr_space_setup/

[short locust]

Awesome, I'll send that to the boss and let him know that's what I want

[pearl tangle]

hah well if all i was doing was demoing stuff then that would work fine i suppose

not so great for actually developing the stuff though

[clever sky]

Ah, just have a standing desk outside

Or height adjustable one

[short locust]

I'd just have a desk inside and hide in it all day

[pearl tangle]

yeah but then every 5 minutes you are having to go inside and screw around rather than just being able to turn around

yeah exactly

have 1 that is on pulleys to the roof so you can pull it up out of the way when necessary instead of a regular standing desk

[clever sky]

Yeah, I guess so.

[short locust]

I wish I could go to Barcelona for my VR work. Two weeks ago I was in Birmingham for a Highways Agency conference. It was exciting as it sounds.

[pearl tangle]

hah yeah it wasn't the worst place to go

i had to go to chicago before that for the same thing but barcelona was slightly nicer

[short locust]

Nice. I was looking at Chicago in Google Earth VR the other day. Looked at the locations from Blues Brothers 😄

[clever sky]

Dat corporate cash monies.

[wicked oak]

i got a job offer from Ubisoft Barcelona

for ue4 VR programmer stuffs

[short locust]

Nice

[wicked oak]

but i had to refuse it

hell im not moving and completely ending university just to go earn 1200 a month

salaries in spain are laughable

[short locust]

Yeah, but offers are a good sign

[wicked oak]

thats the reason ubisoft has done a new office in spain

you can pay 1/3rd of what you pay to a french or an UK dev

for the same job

if i get enough money, i can build my own studio and hire artists for cheap

just gotta get that money first

and more experience

[hard light]

it won't be a salary based consideration, because they'll end up hiring predominantly from the same pool of developers as if the studio were based in france

(developers in the EU are developer in the EU, so salary considerations don't change much except in some cases, e.g. Poland)

even then the bigger Polish studios are still paying normal European salaries to a large number of people

you see, the thing is, if you have skills that somebody wants, then why would you take a job in one place for 33% of what you can earn in another?

[wicked oak]

Every job posting ive seen of a spainsh gamedev job tends to be at around half to a third of the same type of job, with siimlar requisites.

also becouse no one in spain has cash

most are indies with little money

[hard light]

if you're Spanish and have the skills required to fill a game dev role, leave Spain

[wicked oak]

exactly

its also europe, so its easier to go somewhere else

i have very clear that ill end up leaving spain somewhere beetween now and 5 years

[hard light]

unless Spanish studios are willing to pay European salaries, they aren't going to get the people witht he skills they need, heh

[wicked oak]

there are lots of skilled people that just dont want to migrate to other country

like the absolute mayority of them

[hard light]

sometimes you do find these people (for example they have families), but they're usually already entrenched

you don't meet these people in the games industry much though, because the industry does not allow people to be like that by nature

game development teams wax and wane with project requirements and you have to move around a lot

[wicked oak]

on the gamedev schools ive been, and even the computer science ones, ive seen a total lack of "drive"

[hard light]

it's not unusual to live in a different city every 18 months

[wicked oak]

they dont want to do anything outside the school, and going abroad is very very rare

[hard light]

then they're probably not going to get a games job, pretty simple really

[wicked oak]

yup

im not sure what the hell are they planning

a gamedev degree is worthless

its the portfolio what counts

yet 90% of the students dont do anything other than the degree stuff?

im on computer science degree, and i do more stuff outside of it, than on the degree itself

[zinc violet]

at our CS department, we have lots of people wanting to do gamedev

but when you make them actually do something, they barely do anything

[wicked oak]

basically that

[zinc violet]

from all the people I've worked on game projects there, I'm the only one who has done that stuff on free time too

when the course ends, they don't continue on anything gamedev related

[wicked oak]

a good chunk of my CS university is people that got CS becouse it was a new thing, but they arent "vocational"

[clever sky]

Fuck my computer science undergrad days. Lecturers sucked so bad D:

[zinc violet]

I only got to CS to learn away from my bad coding habits

it worked too, somewhat

[wicked oak]

the funny thing is that a CS in spain is pretty much worthless to get a job

[clever sky]

Learnt more in 2 months doing a Udemy course then I did during the entire 3 years 😛

[short locust]

I'm glad I found a way to be a VR developer without having to get a job in the games industry.

[clever sky]

(slight exaggeration, but not too far off)

[wicked oak]

ever year, lots of people get a CS degree

not even 1 out of 10 of them get a CS job

there arent jobs for it here

[zinc violet]

a lot of people around here end up just doing webdev 😄

it's kinda waste of the degree

but then again, some would argue that gamedev is too

[wicked oak]

@short locust Im being able to pay my "indie" stuff like DWVR from the amounts of money ive grabbed from freelancing

and now with VR freelancing even more money

also becouse very few people know UE4 or VR in spain

so both?

i get local jobs that get paid at actual good salaries and i do them from home anyway

with CS in spain, its like with engineering degrees

every good one goes out of spain

[hard light]

most people who do game degrees in the UK end up working in retail

[wicked oak]

there just arent engineering jobs in spain

[hard light]

a lot of them because they don't put the extra-curricular effort in

[wicked oak]

ive actually thought of getting into a game degree

completely crush it

just to get contacts

[hard light]

but also simply because there are so many people doing these degrees that the industry doesn't actually have space to employ them

[wicked oak]

becouse those game schools build balanced teams of artists with programmers

[upbeat holly]

hells yea

[hard light]

there are something like 80 or 90 game degrees in the UK, each with anywhere from 20 to 150 students per year - but the UK games industry only has 9,000 employees total

[upbeat holly]

some good stuff coming out of gnomon

[wicked oak]

and then they get in contact with press and stuff

[upbeat holly]

@hard light woah

[wicked oak]

i mean, there is no damn way, that the game "Intruders" has won the award it did

they are 12 people doign a spooky vr game

12

but being that many peple they do lots of social media and concept art around there

[hard light]

if you consider that something like 10-15% of a team will be graduates / new juniors, then you're looking at 1300 jobs available for 4000 odd graduates, and those 1300 jobs aren't necessarily vacancies, they're already going to be filled by someone...

[wicked oak]

its kind of insane how far the gamedev school contacts can go

[hard light]

most game dev degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on, to be honest

[wicked oak]

in this day and age, most degrees

other than straight engineering ones

CS tends to be a quite worthless degree

[upbeat holly]

really?

[wicked oak]

not nearly as worthless as gamedev or gender studies, but quite worthless

[upbeat holly]

my brother has a degree in cs, does pretty well for himself (60k +)

in GBP

[wicked oak]

you think all the people Google hires have a CS degree?

same with every other company

[upbeat holly]

i dunno

[wicked oak]

a lot of them dont

[upbeat holly]

what about the industry stats

[wicked oak]

there was a stackoverflow stat that actually put that non-degree people earnt more in average than degree people

but that kind of thing is slightly skewed

[upbeat holly]

lol just googled it

so true 😄

[wicked oak]

becouse a lot of the non-degree people got money becouse they did a short course on a highly searched skill, and got a job instantly

while CS are more spread

[upbeat holly]

thats what they said! lol

[wicked oak]

like webdev, or somthing like "data science"

[upbeat holly]

Data science is awesome

[wicked oak]

if you want to get cash, you need to do stuff that is highly sought after, and there are few people that can

so you can get a job "easily" and also highly paid

a good idea now is to do data science or neural networks

they are few jobs, but not that meny people looking at them, and those few jobs give tons of cash

also, hardware development

[upbeat holly]

sure.... you mean deep learning?

[wicked oak]

like ASICS and similar

[upbeat holly]

lawl, but bitcoin is tuning down

asics are crazay

[wicked oak]

its coming, Moores law its on the end, now we gonna see more specific chips

and who is going to make them

[pearl tangle]

robots?

[upbeat holly]

what about 3d processors and stuff?

[wicked oak]

if you learn hardware design with a FPGA, and you do it right, you can proably get a good job

[upbeat holly]

and cloud based processing etc

[wicked oak]

those things are starting to get integratedinto XEONS CPUs

[clever sky]

We're waiting on paradigm shift in material sciences (mainly graphene) to help make the next computing transition.

But Moore's law has plateaued for the current substrate D:

[upbeat holly]

yea thats held a lot of promise, but not come through yet

[wicked oak]

graphene can do everything you dream of

except leaving the lab

[clever sky]

Fuck knows how long that'll take to transition into practical reality D:

Hopefully less like fusion and more like... OLED 😛

[upbeat holly]

last time I checked it was predicted about 50 years

so yea pretty much like fusion

[wicked oak]

we will start seeeing more integrated GPGPU, and FPGAs in processors

[upbeat holly]

😄

[wicked oak]

that way, you can have your own "accelerator" in that FPGA

for a specific thing

Intel is doing that for machine learning

[clever sky]

50 years is a bit too pessimistic.

[wicked oak]

turns out FPGAs can be great for neural nets

becouse you can do them in hardware, on the exact topology that you need for the net

and then it calculates super fast at very low energy

and using those things is HARD

like stupidly hard

also becouse tooling is trash

[upbeat holly]

thats pretty cool

kind of more related to actual neural networks

like that low current fast response thing

[wicked oak]

fpgas are just generic chips

they can "become" anything you want

they often have a small processor or memory inside

but the rest of the thing is actually "free" with a fuckton of logic gates

you write your design, then the fpga arranges those logic gates to do what you want

that means that you are basically limited by size

if you are doing a neural net, you can just do a floating point adder at every single neuron

just one of them

but per neuron

[upbeat holly]

how do you know all this???

[wicked oak]

so you end up with thousands of adders, and everything connected

becouse ive done it

[upbeat holly]

ok kl what did you study?

[wicked oak]

im still in computer science degree

[upbeat holly]

lol

[wicked oak]

the FPGA thing was an optional project i did

i found it interesting, so selected that

[upbeat holly]

sounds interesting

[wicked oak]

it was quite hard

becouse its a new programming paradigm

and, in fact

its not programming

its circuitry design

[upbeat holly]

sweet

neural networks is pretty interesting

[wicked oak]

i eagerly await self driving cars

its going to be very "interesting" to see the reaction from the people

[upbeat holly]

Yea I think they just use machine learning though

[wicked oak]

when all taxis start to go to the trash, and same with trucks

[upbeat holly]

yea!

[wicked oak]

all that people, and jobs linked to that

to the trash

[upbeat holly]

Well at the start they will need observers

[wicked oak]

and tell me what you gonna do with your 40 year old truck driver that has done that since he was 16

[upbeat holly]

and there need to be people in the industry to improve the software lol

[wicked oak]

and never studied a thing

where does he work now?

unless the government does sponsored retrain programs, i see chaos

[upbeat holly]

yea but they can do that

it will all be all right 😄

[wicked oak]

i see the biggest problem to self driving cars being the government

[upbeat holly]

they are already out in london and places

self driving taxis

[wicked oak]

there is a guy inside

not totally autonomous

[upbeat holly]

yea but hes not driving

[wicked oak]

for totally autonomous you need special laws

[hard light]

autonomous vehicles won't make it onto the road until you take people out of the equation

[wicked oak]

cant fully delete all human drivers

it needs to be gradual

[upbeat holly]

arent they already here tho?

[wicked oak]

but its going to be one hell of a shitstorm

by the taxi drivers

those are the first to fall

[upbeat holly]

nah it will be fine they will just retrain

[wicked oak]

keep in mind the shitstorm against UBER and similar

[upbeat holly]

ye

[wicked oak]

imagine that, but WAAAAAY more

its one thing the "they just undercut mee :("

other one is the "it completely leaves me without a job"

[upbeat holly]

yea but they can retrain noone becomes a taxi driver thinking "I cant do ANYTHING else"

[wicked oak]

uhm, taxi driving is a very clear thing thatANYONE can do

thats why Uber is popular

you know how to drive, you can do that

[upbeat holly]

Yea exactly

[wicked oak]

there is no need for any skill whatsoever

specially now with GPS telling you the directions

[upbeat holly]

And look at all the emerging fields: Bioinformatics, Data Science, Machine Learning,

Can wait to see things like AR Power loader Construction

[wicked oak]

you go tell me how the 40 year old taxi driver is going to suddently train in Data Science, when he didnt even finish school

[upbeat holly]

school 😄

[wicked oak]

the older you are, the harder it is to learn new stuff

in general

[upbeat holly]

i dunno i think theres been some evidence that its not the case

might even be the opposite

[hard light]

every job eventually gets replaced by one that is more efficient, either through partial or complete automation

in this case, it's taxi drivers

[wicked oak]

good that we are the ones automating stuff

so we are the last ones to fall

only the Singularity can automate us

[upbeat holly]

lol

[hard light]

in other cases, it's things like package sorting, or grocery store checkout staff etc

[upbeat holly]

also the trend in terms of jobs, is upwards, e.g. there are more job sectors now than ever was before

And its still going up

[hard light]

this isn't a new thing, it's been happening for hundreds of years - someone finds a way to implement a technology that is more efficient than the human counterpart, and renders it redundant

[wicked oak]

actually, this is kind of end of the line

[upbeat holly]

Well not necessarily

[wicked oak]

those tons of millions of drivers that are going to get obsolete wont just magically get new jobs

[upbeat holly]

A whole new universe is starting to exist.

The metaverse etc

[wicked oak]

remember, there arent enough jobs for everyone

[upbeat holly]

Yea there actually is

[wicked oak]

and that is right now

[upbeat holly]

no its not the case

[hard light]

those drivers will find new jobs - it's not like every taxi driver in the world will suddenly have no job overnight

people will gradually move into other professions

[upbeat holly]

Yea there are laws governing it etc

like gradual redundancy etc

[wicked oak]

the moment google/others get to finally do a usable autotaxi system

they will just start putting it in cities

[hard light]

the law is somewhat irrelevant in that regard, especially as most cab drivers are self-employed

[wicked oak]

becouse its easy cash

[hard light]

it's market forces that will push them out

[wicked oak]

and every city that happens, all the taxists on the city get nuked

[upbeat holly]

@wicked oak They already have they are in london

Its still emerging though

[wicked oak]

thats why they are investing so much

self driving tech is a ton of possible money later

[hard light]

first they'll start getting pushed out of the cities, and later they'll get pushed out of the towns until automated services that are cheaper and more efficient totally take over

[upbeat holly]

sure, but heres the catch

[hard light]

it's inevitable, but it'll take years

[upbeat holly]

because of the software being digitized, its possible a free open source solution will undercut their margins

and make it readily available

[wicked oak]

software is the least

you need the data

the software is basically just "simple-ish" neural nets

but they gotta be trained

[cobalt relic]

Actually there are jobs for everyone, if your economy works.

[wicked oak]

spanish one doesnt 😦

[cobalt relic]

See all those 3% unemployment countries

[wicked oak]

25% unemployment

[cobalt relic]

@wicked oak French here so I understand the pain

(11% here)

[upbeat holly]

Sure but that training can happen outside the corporate structure

[wicked oak]

btw, @cobalt relic What is the salary for a normal gamedev there ?

[hard light]

realistically, there aren't jobs for everyone, nor is there a societal or economic need to supply jobs for everyone

[wicked oak]

programmer

[hard light]

it won't be too long before it starts to become necessary to begin adopting social mechanisms that accept that large amounts of the population will simply be unemployed, because it is neither necessary nor possible to employ them

[cobalt relic]

@wicked oak There is no gamedev in France, really. Or really precious few. i'm not working as a gamedev because of that. But a programmer would make 30 to 50k€ depending on career, experience etc

@hard light Realistically, plenty of countries have a job for everyone

[wicked oak]

see, already 3 times spanish salary for gamedev

[hard light]

universal income programs are probably the first step in that regard

[upbeat holly]

hells yea

[hard light]

there won't be jobs for everyone though, this is the point

[upbeat holly]

UBI is a + for everyone

[hard light]

as more and more mundane tasks become partially or fully automated, and vastly more efficient, and populations increase exponentially, it simply won't be possible to employ everyone

[upbeat holly]

Well im not sure, new job sectors will be created

[hard light]

it's not going to take very long to begin seeing that

[cobalt relic]

@hard light That's not supported by reality. See : european countries with high employment rate

[upbeat holly]

if you consider humans, as elite operating machines

[hard light]

new job sectors can only exist if something is created to support them

[cobalt relic]

People have been saying what you're saying for literally 200 years

[upbeat holly]

sure but we can create stuff

[hard light]

European countries with high employment rates generally have proportionally low populations

Scandinavia is mostly empty, as an example

[cobalt relic]

Like Germany ?

[hard light]

the UK is not, and unemployment here is actually pretty high

[cobalt relic]

UK has 5% unemplyment

Please

[hard light]

the government massages those statistics heavily by ignoring homeless people, and counting people who are 'self-employed' or work less than 16 hours a week

that 5% unemployment figure is complete bollocks

[upbeat holly]

@hard light Can confirm

[hard light]

(it has been for about a decade now)

[wicked oak]

Germany is special

they do engineering for the whole europe

[cobalt relic]

Okay, well, I can't argue if you decide that statistics are wrong

[wicked oak]

their industry is god tier strong

[upbeat holly]

stranger its well known and debated

not trying to argue but its been talked about here

[hard light]

we know that their statistics are wrong, it's well known how they manipulate the numbers to make them look way better than they are

[cobalt relic]

UK is wrong, Germany is special, other countries are empty

Yeah sure

[upbeat holly]

Really man!

Dunno about the otther stuff

one estimate put real unemployment at the UK at around 18% from what i remember

[hard light]

sounds about right

[cobalt relic]

I'm not english, it's not my place to question the numbers. What I'm saying is, 95% of people who have some kind of job, even part time, isn't that bad

[hard light]

the trick is, the "unemployment" statistic of 5% isn't actually that

[wicked oak]

spanish unemployment is 25%

[hard light]

the 5% is the number of people claiming unemployment benefit

[wicked oak]

on sub 25 years old,its 50%

there are no jobs

and they arent being created

[hard light]

...but this conveniently ignores the fact that millions of people get denied said benefit for all manner of spurious reasons

[cobalt relic]

I don't really care tbh. What I'm saying is, mecanization and exponential population growth has been hapenning for 200 years. Lots of countries haven't had any long-term unemployment issues.

[hard light]

..and several European countries already do?

[cobalt relic]

They do, but they also had 5% a few years ago

And will again in a few years

There is no universal employment doom

[upbeat holly]

yea I agree stranger

[cobalt relic]

I'm not saying it's okay to have 25% unemployment

Or 11% as in my country

I'm saying it's not inevitable

I'm also for minimal revenue for everyone for the record

[zinc violet]

https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?130186-4-14-Rendering-Features-amp-November-UE4jam-Winners-Announced-December-1st-Live-From-Epic-HQ

[upbeat holly]

you mean UBI?

[cobalt relic]

Yeah

Had to look that up 😃

But yeah, and in Europe it's starting to be discussed somewhat

Swiss actually voted on it (they denied it)

[upbeat holly]

yea i know right

[cobalt relic]

I hope it'll be a subject in the elections here, it's in 6 months

It's not happening soon but at least it's not dismissed immediatly anymore

[hard light]

there'll be work houses here before universal income

[upbeat holly]

Corbyn said he might bring the policy in

[hard light]

I genuinely don't see it happening in the UK any time soon

too busy tumbling towards a fascist dictatorship, lol

[upbeat holly]

heh

[wicked oak]

i dont see it working in spain, at all

[upbeat holly]

people dont believe its the best outcome

give it time

[wicked oak]

spanish people are lazy, most of us

its kind of known universally XD

[upbeat holly]

Lazy is good 😄

[clever sky]

Anglosphere going down the toilet

[wicked oak]

UBI wont happen until there is literallt +60% unemployment alraedy

[hard light]

the problem is a lot of people don't believe in getting 'something for nothing' - but these people generally speaking also believe that money is finite and don't understand how their economies work on a very basic level

[clever sky]

Except for Canada

But the rest is.

[hard light]

New Zealand is also doing fine

[clever sky]

Oh yeah

[cobalt relic]

Canada does look fine

Except for those temperatures

[upbeat holly]

New zealand though is in the firing line for climate change

[hard light]

the UK and the US seem to be entrenched in a bitter battle to the death about how low they can go on a scale of 10 to pure idiocracy.

[upbeat holly]

lol

so true

[short locust]

Yup

[cobalt relic]

US are winning though

[upbeat holly]

it might be a corporate covert plan though

[cobalt relic]

Sorry brits

[upbeat holly]

its like they are trying to buy governors at the local level in US

[hard light]

I don't know, they voted for Trump, but the real shit hasn't hit the fan over there yet

[clever sky]

It's ok. The US decided to cede their global leadership by voting in Trump 😛

[hard light]

they didn't vote to tank their own economy 25% overnight xD

[clever sky]

He'll contract America into the fetal position.

[cobalt relic]

From a European PoV, Ms May seem to be clever, at least.

[upbeat holly]

Smh

[clever sky]

And China will be poised to provide global leadership in this scenario.

[cobalt relic]

I mean she's crazy but not the idiot kind of crazy

[upbeat holly]

Ms may couldnt cook a bacon roll

[hard light]

she's definitely not stupid, but she's also pretty sadistic

[upbeat holly]

Shes not loud, thats more dangerous

sure im just being insulting 😄

[hard light]

she's going to do a lot of damage before we get another election

[upbeat holly]

shes kind of headmistress kind of scary

[cobalt relic]

Apparently May is undermining Europe very hard by discussing privately with half the countries in the union

[upbeat holly]

snoopers charter is pretty scary

[cobalt relic]

So that negociations inside Europe fail

[upbeat holly]

and the crazy porn laws now in the uk

[hard light]

she's been trying to undermine the UK by pushing through laws without them even being discussed by parliament

she is literally trying to function like a dictator

[cobalt relic]

@hard light Not defending her, just sayin she looks at least competent

[upbeat holly]

Yea but thats worse, look at clinton

She competently destroyed a couple of countries

[cobalt relic]

Yeah I know

[hard light]

I'd rather have incompetency than competently dangerous

[upbeat holly]

Agreed

[cobalt relic]

@hard light France it is, then !

[upbeat holly]

*Smh

[wicked oak]

UK ison the path of a dictatorship

[upbeat holly]

France is pretty much there

[wicked oak]

look at anti-porn law and the snoopers charter

those are being made for a reason

[upbeat holly]

sure tests

[cobalt relic]

@hard light We're definitely not on the path to dictatorship, but we have plenty of high-level incompetence

[wicked oak]

once the infraestructure to ban porn is done, you can ban whatever you want

[hard light]

yup, state-mandated censorship of legal content, and the ability for any government agency to access the Internet history of any civilian at will

[wicked oak]

that is anti-democracy as fuck

[hard light]

they have also inserted provision that make encryption useless (companies must provide them backdoors), and the only people immune to said law, are those in government

[upbeat holly]

lol

[wicked oak]

buthe "what about the children" by the same government guys who are being investigated for pedophilia

[hard light]

last week they also started putting new paramilitary police units on the streets

[upbeat holly]

some orwellian tactic

[hard light]

when you put everything that's happening here together, it's genuinely fucking scary

[wicked oak]

well, not investigated, those investigattion just happen to get ignored or stop

[upbeat holly]

Sure its like Britain is ground zero for corporate fascism

[cobalt relic]

In France we're starting to wonder if the current majority will even compete in the next election, which has never happened since WW2. So, yay for democracy I guess

RIP those last 5 years too 😦

[hard light]

ah yes, the good old trick of an investigation into government corruption... by the purportedly corrupt branch of government 👍

surprise, we found nothing!

[clever sky]

I suppose it's terrifying if one believes one has lived in a democracy.

If one accepts that the democracy is simply the veil of control allowed the populace... it all makes a lot more sense 😛

[cobalt relic]

Democracy is alive and well, to be honest

[hard light]

not in the UK :p

[cobalt relic]

@hard light You did elect that crazy bigot

[upbeat holly]

lol

[hard light]

no, we didn't

[cobalt relic]

Well you didn't

[clever sky]

Democracy is alive and well; you get to choose between fucked up and fucking crazy.

[cobalt relic]

But you voted Brexit

[wicked oak]

they have a similarly fucked up voting system as USA

only 2 parties

[hard light]

roughly half of people voted for Brexit

[clever sky]

Honestly.

[wicked oak]

in spain a 3rd and a 4th party just got like 35% of the votes

[clever sky]

I think in this election cycle

[wicked oak]

both of them new this election

and they did got their part

thatcaused a loooong problem

[clever sky]

Polls and apathy played a terrifying role.

[wicked oak]

becouse they couldnt select a president

no party had enough power

and the obvious teams also didnt

[clever sky]

i.e. the polls show the 'sane side is ok', so, 'meh to voting'.

[hard light]

but yeah, we have an unelected prime minister who is passing laws against the will of the people, implementing broad state mandated censorship and surveillance programs, and is putting militarised police on the streets 👍

[cobalt relic]

Blaming polls doesn't make any sense. Blame people reading the pools and thinking oh well, I don't need to spend an hour voting.

[hard light]

(amongst other things)

[cobalt relic]

@hard light Okay, i'll admit you guys have an issue with democracy

Well like I said feel free to come over here 😄

[wicked oak]

this is one thing that spain does better

yayyy

[hard light]

well, once Brexit kicks in, we won't be able to :p

[wicked oak]

at least we are better in "something"

[hard light]

since I'll be having my European citizenship stripped from me againt my will 😦

[cobalt relic]

Meh. Come live here, you'll get a new one

Seriously though, lots of people in Europe are happy with Brexit

[hard light]

I would be too, have you met the average British person?

[cobalt relic]

It's not like we don't like thr brits tbh

It's more that the UK has never really been in Europe

It was Scrödinger's UK

It's both in, and not in !

[hard light]

many people here still have very strong notions of 'the Empire' and a very isolationist / xenophobic attitude to be fair

[cobalt relic]

We have those too

Just less

Well, here's hoping that french party doesn't win next year

[hard light]

D:

[cobalt relic]

They've been talking about Frexit

Which is both a horrible word and a horrible idea

[hard light]

I can see it happening

[cobalt relic]

(Apparently this was #virtual-reality, sorry for those with actual technical questions)

[hard light]

haha, it is, but nobody seems to be asking questions right now anyway xD

[wicked oak]

little quiz

what is the value of X and Y on the first loop?

its 144 and 160, and im very fucking confused

(144 is framebuffer width and 160 height)

[cobalt relic]

Gameboy emulator ?

[wicked oak]

yes

no, this is for real

im confused as fuck

[cobalt relic]

(Working at Nintendo on emulators)

[wicked oak]

this is a random function that draws random garbage intothe framebuffer

for testing

the framebufferpixels var is an array of the data

guess what, its allways 0

and that first cout?

doesnt get called

[cobalt relic]

You're running that in debug, or release ?

oh lol

for();

;;;;;;;

[wicked oak]

holy fucking siht

[cobalt relic]

You failed

[wicked oak]

goddamit VS, i trusted your error and warning messages

all is well now

[cobalt relic]

Doing an emu from scratch ?

Well, good luck, that's fun to do 😃

[wicked oak]

it already runs homebrew

there is a small demo, opus5

this emulator runs it

[cobalt relic]

Cool

[wicked oak]

its a little spaceship on a asteroid field

but my graphics were wrongly made

so now im recoding them

[cobalt relic]

Haven't work on gb emulation yet, but I'm sure I'll get to it at some point

[wicked oak]

to be afully software renderer, just drawing into a framebuffer to then display into the screen

before i was drawing sprites with SDL and the like

and when i went to add interruptions for Vsync and HSync, i found its impossible

so recoding it

[cobalt relic]

Yeah, start with software rendering anyway

Worry about hardware acceleration later, if useful

[wicked oak]

its harder this new way

gotta do the actual GPU chip

with cycles and stuff

so it draws one pixel every X cycles

and calls the correct interrupts

lovely

too bad it doesnt run tetris

[karmic kelp]

Hey guys, When the HMD is plugged the Mesh Of the Actor is clipping. I tried to adjust the settings of near clip Plane but it doesn't work out how to make sure that the mesh of the body is fully rendered

[normal thorn]

you tried Edit -> Project Settings -> General Settings Near Clip Plane

I thought I was able to edit that before but you go cross eyed trying to see things that close...

can't remember exactly now, but I do think it can be edited, but there is a reason it doesn't work for super close

[mighty carbon]

so, just had an odd conversation with some one I know (biased open source and AMD fan, if that has anything to do with the conversation).. The conversation went like this. Dude: "I'd go 4k monitor before I get into VR"; me: "Have you even tried VR?"; Dude: "Yeah, I tried DK1. VR sucks."; me: "Lol. DK1 is nothing like Rift + Touch."; Dude: "Meh. Same shit I bet."

WTF?!

[normal thorn]

lol haaaters gonna hate

but I get it, I tell those poeple yes you should get 4k monitor

and 120 or 144hz

VR can't be preached it can only be experienced

if someone is a like TV will never take off b/c the new FM radios are out!

I say great youy should get a radio and I will be happy for you

but really VR isn't as great for your friend as a 4k monitor will be

the content isn't there yet to match gaming on a PC

so they will get more enjoyment out of a 4k monitor

[mighty carbon]

the presence beats resolution

[normal thorn]

yeah

[mighty carbon]

hell, I still play in 720p even though I can play in 1080p

(non-VR)

[native cedar]

in VR I can have a monitor as big as I want and a full empty cinema room just for me

plus a dog that fetches me sticks

can you have that with 4k?

[normal thorn]

thats not a good argument

4k monitor is better

[native cedar]

hashtag roasted

[cobalt relic]

If offered any of VR headset, 144Hz monitor, 4K monitor I'd go for 4K

[normal thorn]

thats ok VR doesn't have to be the final product, where 4k is probably as high as monitors will go for a long time, Monitors are a super refined long developed product

VR is super young. It doesn't need us to say its greater than it is. It will be obvious in time

[mighty carbon]

I'd go for Rift + Touch and (2) 1080p screens 😛

will be cheaper than (1) 4k screen

[normal thorn]

and a comeupter that can run those

4k monitor on newegg is $329

27inch

[mighty carbon]

if people keep putting 4k screens and other gimmicks above VR, it will take forever for VR to become a mass product

[normal thorn]

content will make it a mass product not the hardware

[mighty carbon]

you need to buy exiting VR hardware to experience content

[normal thorn]

I'd rather someone get a 4k monitor right now, than get a VR headset that they spend $1200 on and ask me what else is there to play?

[short locust]

4k monitors are not a gimmick

[mighty carbon]

you can make best content out there, but if a person will pay for 4k screen and not for VR hardware, how on earth do you see VR going forward ?

[normal thorn]

they are really not the same thing, its not either or

they are totally different

[cobalt relic]

4K is the next big step for content quality, VR is a different gaming concept

I fully expect 4K VR someday

Some people like new concepts

Some people like better quality with the same concepts

[clever sky]

Don't worry about VR. Just enjoy the ride.

[mighty carbon]

sure it is. I saw 2k 32" screen and I saw 4k screen of ~ same size. I don't see why I need 4k.

[clever sky]

It's going to be a slow burn relative to stuff like the post iphone smartphone and the tablet.

[normal thorn]

I bet someone would be 300 hours of Overwatch on their 4k 120hz monitor, while the most I'd bet average Vive/Oculus user hasn't spend nearly that much time in VR, b/c what is there to play?

its getting there

but its not the same thing

[mighty carbon]

@normal thorn Robo Recall, Lone Echo, Chronos

[normal thorn]

there are games/apps that are fun. but they are not 100 million investment in development fun

[mighty carbon]

I don't even want to play conventional games any longer

[cobalt relic]

@mighty carbon Even rendering your game in 4K on a 1080p screen (screen percentage 200% in UE4) is a huge upgrade, to be honest

And that's not even actual 4K

[mighty carbon]

@cobalt relic did I mention I still play in 720p and enjoy it ? 😃

[cobalt relic]

You can try it at home for free

[clever sky]

The market will start heating up around the time Apple start dropping their VR stuff. Not because I think Apple will revolutionize VR/AR - but because they'll finally have the confidence to show a mass consumer appealing product around the time the tech is good enough to have mass consumer appeal.

[short locust]

The "I can't tell the difference" argument has been made for every change in screens ever. People said widescreen was pointless, DVD didn't look any better, Bluray looks the same as DVD. They were always wrong.

[mighty carbon]

I personally never had these arguments.

But 2k vs 4k is something I don't see

[short locust]

It's the same thing

[clever sky]

BTW, we are actually hitting the physiological limits of perception with these higher end displays.

[short locust]

I have 2k and 4k screens, the 4k screens are way better

[mighty carbon]

same as smartphones screen res - if not for VR, I don't see why small screens need to have 2k and up res. And Apple thinks the same.

[clever sky]

4k, 144hz... yeah, we're getting to the point where you literally can't tell the difference .

[short locust]

For work, games and movies

[clever sky]

Depending on use case.

[cobalt relic]

It all depends on screen size. 4K on a phone is definitely overkill

[clever sky]

Yeah.

[mighty carbon]

not for VR

[clever sky]

As a computer monitor, it still makes some sense

[cobalt relic]

4K on a 32" monitor ? Yeah, why not

[clever sky]

for increased real estate.

[cobalt relic]

4K on a videoprojector / big TV is definitely noticeable

[mighty carbon]

4k on 32" screen looks almost the same as 4k on 32" screen

[clever sky]

Well, that depends on your seating distance.

[mighty carbon]

err, as 2k

[clever sky]

All of it depends on angular size on retina

But in terms of your average seating distance from an average 40" screen size...

It's sharper than most healthy adult eyes can see 😛

[normal thorn]

so yeah 4k, on another topic. I'm getting my VR game ready for Early Access today. Yay! Need to make a trailer. I'm thinking do an intro cinematic then just capture the black bars on the side hedset view of gameplay with shadowplay

any ideas for better?

[short locust]

The fact that you can't see a difference, does not mean there isn't one. I can see a difference between my 2k monitors and my 4k monitors and so can other people.

[normal thorn]

maybe try to capture webcam of me?

[short locust]

Have you thought about trying a mixed reality video?

[clever sky]

Yeah. Black bars to give yourself enough space to insert a cam version of yourself

Mixed reality tough to do with UE

[normal thorn]

yeah I'd love to but I develop at home in a bedroom, so getting greenscreen might be tricky

also I don't know if I want to spend the time integrating that kind of solution

[clever sky]

Do you have a murphy bed?

[normal thorn]

I don't have an extra controller

no bed in the way

wife wants to see if this works if Ill keep working from home or get an office

[short locust]

The hardest part of greenscreen at home is trying to get my wife to remember to buy some green cloth. She's the one who works next to the shop.

[normal thorn]

lol

lighting, setting it up, integrating the camera matching... its going to take more than a week

[short locust]

Maybe next time 😉

[normal thorn]

yeah I hope!

I want to its looks great

[short locust]

So , yeah, black bars and some cam footage

[normal thorn]

whats that software that can capture webcam and gameplay?

[clever sky]

The unity guys are really ahead in the MR stuff D:

[normal thorn]

or does shadowplay do that... let me check

webcam works

coooool

lol people will see my room

well whatevs

not super polished but thats early access

[clever sky]

Just make sure it's presentable and well lit.

[normal thorn]

right

wouldn't it be nice if gamedevelopment was just the unreal part?

[clever sky]

I know right.

Dammit Unreal. Your tools (sans UMG) has spoilt me!

[normal thorn]

lol i know!

[clever sky]

UMG is an abhorrent pus filled blister on UE 😛

[normal thorn]

it clunky yes. It will get better

[clever sky]

Even autocad is much better in this regard.

I could do a better job of doing UI in sketchup!

[normal thorn]

impressive

hah

[clever sky]

I think a big bit of it is I just don't need most of the UMG functionality for responsive sizing.

And if you don't need that, the entire interface is just a real drag on basic operations.

[hard light]

okay realtalk and terrifying talk

imagine you need to implement mouse and keyboard controls, combined with Vive room scale tracking

[clever sky]

Sounds... physically improbable.

[hard light]

this means standard movement and rotation with the mouse and keyboard, and the usual stuff with the HMD

[normal thorn]

it worked already but made the person in VR sick

[hard light]

yeah, it's nasty, you've got two systems that are ultimately at odds with one another

...but ignoring how awful this system is, how would you go about actually implementing it?

[clever sky]

Do you mean standing VR, standing at KB/M?

Or you mean somehow holding a wireless keyboard and moving around physically?

[hard light]

ignore whether it is standing or sat down - and worry just about the implementation in UE4

[normal thorn]

if you use the first person template it will work in VR and keyboard and mouce

[clever sky]

Yes

You can do that.

[hard light]

does the template do that?

[normal thorn]

you will have to integrate controllers

[hard light]

both work at the same time?

[normal thorn]

yes

its horrible

[clever sky]

But that'll keep the collision capsule in the center of the room.

[hard light]

this I will investifate 😄

[normal thorn]

if someone touches the mouse the VR head moves

[hard light]

yeah, the collision capsule is also a problem xD

[clever sky]

In that case, you want to use VRExpansionPlugin

[hard light]

however, if you get rid of the collision capsule, and use a sphere on the camera, it's fine