having good game doesn't guarantee sales any longer
#virtual-reality
clever sky
Not for VR
mighty carbon
2008 was a peak of indie scene where releasing on Steam guaranteed sales (and I managed to experience that in 2011)
clever sky
/lastmessageoftheday
wicked oak
marketing is key
mighty carbon
that's what I am wondering about VR.. I've read recently that VR was called a new field for indies to get rich and not die trying 😃
wicked oak
good that VR people tend to look at the new releases constantly
vrmultigames got 40k downloads with 0 marketing
full junco
I believe in if a game is good people will buy it 😄
silk lodge
yeah
wicked oak
ill keep finishing the store page for DWVR
silk lodge
there's tons of wom marketing atm
silk lodge
launch squad is the best 0 players game I've tried
wicked oak
if someone wants to try DWVR, tell me and i send key
storm vortex
what is DWVR?
wicked oak
my vr game
heady parrot
There is no doubt there is a huge opportunity here, but yeah the VR market is still a bit small. but certainly enough for a small team to make decent living, but the same rules apply as with indie game dev in general.. dont expect your game to become and instant hit 😃
wicked oak
storm vortex
thanks
silk lodge
made with unreal.. nice!
wicked oak
all the video is captured directly from oculus rift preview
in the preview mode that does fullscreen
but its slightly tilted down....
thats why most of the time im looking at the floor
its not the final trailer, but kind of a temporary one
heady parrot
very cool 😃
full junco
development time 2 months? eh I'm doing something wrong then
heady parrot
yeah I think the default view is cropped too low
silk lodge
I like the super fast movement
heady parrot
I immediate think it will make me sick 😃
not a fan of dashing, or most teleporting actually
the environment reminds me of Dark Souls Anor Londo 😃
wicked oak
thats for the cathedral one
and yeah, its heavily inspired by anor londo
got 3 maps at the moment
plus another 3 worse
full junco
working on my game for roughly 8 months now I think... I would also like to release that but it doesn't feel like the most awesome game yet so I still wait...
heady parrot
yeah the market is flooded with half finished games and demos 😃 its a quick buck but wont make you a lot of money
full junco
I don't want to release something that feels half finished... I basically want to wait until I'm relatively sure that I won't get negative feedback
silk lodge
everybody has been really excited about vr, so they've gotten excited abotu their projects and put them on steam
storm vortex
There are also a lot of wave shooters out now too. I've about had my fill of them.
Not calling yours a wave shooter since you can move around, but it is similar looking
silk lodge
wave shooters are actually >25% of the games
I'm glad to see steam is the hub for downloading this stuff. it's nice to have it organized, well reviewed, and not filled with broken links
mighty carbon
@wicked oak downloads don't translate into sales, usually. So I wouldn't count great number of downloads as direct indication your VR game will be commercially successful. I remember we had 300k+ downloads of our old game and that didn't translate into sales figures.
my dilemma is whether to port my old game to XB1 (port it to UE4 first and then any platform from there pretty much) or just move on to VR all the way
wicked oak
with ue4 its easy to port to console
mighty carbon
well, yeah, but I still need to re-make my game in UE4 😃
basically, while I have almost all art assets and gameplay is the only thing that needs to be implemented in UE4, there is a really good chance the game will get lost in this saturated market. In VR, market isn't saturated, but I still need to get some hardware and since market is small and growing with speed of a turtle, there is a good chance I don't even break even, not to mention making a living
tough call 🤔
storm vortex
I am starting to work on my own VR game. Mostly in the prototyping stages now, but definitely not quitting my day job or betting the house on it.
If I can sell it and it makes enough to cover all the assets I just bought I'd be happy.
mighty carbon
my goal is to get out of this dead end job 😉
wicked oak
my goal is world domination
silk lodge
my goal is taking over the world
storm vortex
Anyone know if UE4 supports PSVR?
wicked oak
yes
and easily
took me 1 day to port DWVR to it
you still use the motion controller interface and all the stuff is done for you
just takes a bit of fiddling to make it work
with engine settings and the like
storm vortex
That's cool, so sounds like biggest hurdle is being a Sony dev and testing on PS4 / Dealing with their submissions process.
heady parrot
yeah, once you are registered and got a ps4 devkit then you can get access
mighty carbon
so, get $10k ready + some cash for every time you have to resubmit for certification 😃
heady parrot
Sony has some indie stuff, but I dont know the details or how its different to other licensees
mighty carbon
(not to mention gotta be incorporated + have an office)
storm vortex
Yeah, not in a big rush to do that kinda stuff. I've worked on some Xbox apps in the past and it was a pain. I was just curious implementation wise how much work it was.
heady parrot
it pretty much works out of the box
mighty carbon
I wish XB1 had VR
heady parrot
it will in a year or so
mighty carbon
sounds like it's cheap and easy to get on XB1 and just generally easier to work with than Sony
heady parrot
I would agree with that yeah
storm vortex
It's been a while since I've done Xbox but I think you can convert consumer ones to do developement on now. When I worked on it you had to have a special dev kit. It didn't look different from a consumer one like the PS4 though.
heady parrot
what does DW stand for?
heady parrot
yeah names are tough 😃
wicked oak
heady parrot
hah
wicked oak
this is the VRMultigames logo that i use on steam
compare that to the DWVR ones above
silk lodge
@wicked oak It's a little hard for me to read some of the smaller titles. There isn't much contrast
wicked oak
what would you recomend?
it has a black outline over grey letters, and the background is orange-ish
they are going to be quite a bit bigger than the size they appear in that pic
silk lodge
i'm looking at it and blurring my eyes and they just blend in
I would have a more consistant brightness on text, and have the background darker
wicked oak
so less metallic, more light grey?
for comparaison
Square version of icon against square version of others
heady parrot
yeah its a bit hard to read, hardly looks like a name
wicked oak
uhm, probably should zoom it
heady parrot
maybe make the text a bit lighter? ie almost white in center?
silk lodge
I'd still reduce contrast on the letters
here's a metal vr title that still pretty visible
it's on black though
(which helps!)
if you look at your title and squint, the darker bits fade away
so maybe you just need more rim lighting
mighty carbon
keep DWVR as logo and add legible normal font to spell out full title
wicked oak
there is no full title
mighty carbon
Deathwave VR ?
mighty carbon
then you are screwed 😃
mighty carbon
Make it off-white with dark gray outline
silk lodge
you need a big splat or explosion or dark bit under that because it's hard to read
heady parrot
there ya go
wicked oak
the only change is that the left one has lighter letters
heady parrot
muuch better
heady parrot
👌
heady parrot
I gave up watching after 7 eps, its "ok" but just not catching me
mighty carbon
I find it pretty interesting.. Going to make one for VR 😛
pallid echo
I'm 50/50 with West World now.
I was enjoying the hell out of it till I realized they used the lamest ways to push the story forward.
mighty carbon
you are thinking to much 😉
pallid echo
Sadly you are right. Lol
mighty carbon
I learned to enjoy movies as-is (unless they are totally dumb). Otherwise it's impossible to enjoy if thinking into it and over-analyzing until the series is over
pallid echo
That's why I don't really watch movies or TV anymore. Lol
Its my own fault but yeah...
mighty carbon
so, in VR Westworld-like world, you could make your own story 😃
pallid echo
There wouldn't be any dumb ass IT guys/programmers in my story, that's for sure.
mighty carbon
yeah, that one thing that bothered me.. They could have easily report the issue when she was in-service and whacked her
but no, they only remembered about the issue when she was out of service threatening them
but meh, I want to see the final episode and see if Mr. Hopkins had it all planned out
😄
heady parrot
final episode - the whole world was another sim, and you wake up in the real world
heady parrot
much better 😃 can read it clearly now
upbeat holly
WESTWORLD = BEST EVER
wicked oak
ups, top left icon is still darker
upbeat holly
had to get that off my chest
mighty carbon
😃
wicked oak
any more tips or feedback?
wicked oak
it means nothing
it was the "codename" of the project
but couldnt find another name
upbeat holly
You could use like a dramatic render of a monster to make it look evil and doomlike
wicked oak
the game builds on top of Deathwave
so it got the name of DeathWaveVR as codename
i basically reused the enemies that were created for deathwave
and some weapon stuff
wicked oak
dramatic renders are for the screenshots
i got a few, for Sony Playstation Awards
like this one
on an older map
but it uses a PSMove as spell wand
so gonna be a nope for oculus store
im doing this game on basically no budget, abusing the hell out of unreal engine meshes
and FX
that image you see on every single of the store images, they all come from a single 4k x 4k screenshot i made for a stand in a convention
it got printed in 1.5 x 1.5 meters
mighty carbon
I guess I'd need to find someone to work with unless I want to be lagging behind the market (which I don't want to) :/
upbeat holly
@mighty carbon Self funded publishing is crazy hard right?
Yea find some people to team up with etc
maybe try profit sharing etc
pallid echo
Tis how a lot of indies do it.
upbeat holly
Yea I think it provides a lot of incentive, but the problem is with decision making and maintaining the team, because at the end of the day peoples gotta eat
wicked oak
i cant find artists
even after showing stuff like that and the "i just need concept art to get this to serious levels"
and the "did that in a couple month"
just cant find artists
upbeat holly
did you pay them 😄
upbeat holly
yea exactly
mighty carbon
@upbeat holly hard, but I did it a few times.. I meant having lead programmer (even if it's just all BP scripting) on the project.
mighty carbon
people do have to eat, but that's why I am not looking for someone who needs a job desperately. Need someone with day job that isn't related to game dev (and preferably not related to programming as I can imagine people don't really want to program 24/7, even if it's for game dev after hours)
upbeat holly
But then the skillset is the problem
mighty carbon
well, I am not looking for next Tim Sweeney or John Carmack. Not looking for next Palmer either 😉
wicked oak
im in a similar case, i need an artist who can do stuff by itself
i do the programming/architecture/tech, he does the art
cant find anyone like that
hopefully with DWVR i get some money i can use to take artists or the attention of a publisher to then get artists
i do have a publisher who has showed interest on my stuff, but he wants concept art and similar stuf...
upbeat holly
Concept art is a lot of fun. if you have an artistic slant maybe just try do it yourself?
upbeat holly
lawl
mighty carbon
@upbeat holly were you asking me about experience ? (reading the posts; got distracted by day job 🙀 )
upbeat holly
@mighty carbon yup
mighty carbon
Steel Storm on Steam
wicked oak
how did you get the artists for that?
did you ever do what you wanted of porting to UE4 and adding MP?
i told you i could do it no problem, at a price
mighty carbon
I did the art
wicked oak
plus now, Ps4 port
mighty carbon
and some sounds, and some levels
and even some programming 🙀 (but that was awful)
If you search for "tomes of mephistopheles" on youtube, that's the game I'd like to revive for VR
one thing for sure - doing everything by myself is fun and beneficial, but I'd rather get product out in a reasonable time than spend 10 years making a product by myself and be late to the market (there is of course always a change to break a bank at the end, but from experience I don't see that happening)
topaz chasm
@wicked oak , you're looking for a concept artist?
wicked oak
yes, for my next game mostly
exactly what i need is 2 artists. With 2 artist we can go full company and start doing professional games
one of them for concept and other for modelling. Mostly
topaz chasm
My roomate is a digital artist. I'm a modeler. O_O
Send me some info about your project and what kinds of concept art you're looking for and I'll run it by him.
upbeat holly
@wicked oak Would love to help in either role, but too busy dude sorry
wicked oak
@topaz chasm this is one of them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9YlJaEX69A
that gameplay prototype was done in a week, it impressed the publisher quite a bit
to realize that game, i need concept art and level art
it can be simple, as that is the plan. No realistic graphics becouse they take too much
but a more stylized look
like that, i have a bunch more
the true search for the next game wont start until DWVR is selling
and development for PSVR
as there is lots of market there
topaz chasm
Does discord have a PM system? I don't want to flood this chat with questions.
mighty carbon
wicked oak
it would definitely work well VR
and you know what, motorsep
i just happen to have a codebase for melee and spellfighting in DWVR
mighty carbon
😃
I am actually re-designing certain aspects. I totally don't like melee in FPS games, but in VR it's probably a different story
mighty carbon
I bet
wicked oak
like super damn hard
becouse you can do like my first implementations in DWVR
a instakill sword
its awesome to use
its also broken as fuck
OP to the highest caliber
so then you need a sword that isnt instakill
what are you going to do
a possible thing is that if you hit an enemy, he falls back
like jumps back
that would help with the collision
but then you can be indestructible by just wiggling the hand wildly
its very problematic
mighty carbon
I have some ideas for melee in VR, just need to flesh it out on the paper first
wicked oak
just tell them to me, ive already tested a fuckton of them
you dont have anything new for sure
mighty carbon
so, if anyone find this game (concept) interesting and worth exploring, can get into potentially long'ish dev haul (can actually do Early Access or something; but it's not a quick turn around game) and doesn't need money upfront (at least it this point, it might change early next year and might be able to pay for contract work), we can figure something out 😃
I need to flesh ideas out.. I just got a few right now, but it's just vague ideas
wicked oak
also, AI for a melee sword game in VR is complicated
you need to let the player block the hits
and dodge them
a shield its a good option
and you need to solve the "wiggle" problem
how to avoid that the player becomes a unstoppable thing just by wiggling
mighty carbon
what's "wiggle" of the shield?
also, if you play Darksiders, you might find melee combat satisfying
wicked oak
I mean the wiggle of the sword
its a motion control sword, so the player can just wiggle it
and kill everything
you need to stop that
mighty carbon
apply a way less damage when wiggling
wicked oak
ive done it by adding physics to the sword, but its buggy as hell
you need special animations, very careful ones, for the enemies
so they try to block and parry your stuff
the less damage thing feels horrible
mighty carbon
the way we did it was simply not do damage (or do small damage) if player touches AI with sword. Only swings and pokes yield damage
it's not
wicked oak
in VR?
mighty carbon
in real life you won't cause much damage with slightly poking with sword
upbeat holly
what about fighting with axes and stuf
Like i need that hacking motion to feel right
wicked oak
a lance could work well
upbeat holly
a mace?
heady parrot
@mighty carbon That "Tomes of Mephistopheles" is exactly the kinda game I dream about making for VR, but for multiplayer 😉
upbeat holly
😄 😄 😄
wicked oak
you can also look like ive done, and do a bow game
heady parrot
the sword physics can be solved, just add in the notion of a momentum to the hit damage.. so you need to do large swings to do damage
topaz chasm
Hotdogs Horseshoes and Hand-grenades limited the wiggle-cheat by taking into account the length of travel in a swing, and significantly dropping off damage if a swing is below a threshold.
mighty carbon
you need to apply force, thus swings and deep pokes should yield significant damage
mighty carbon
@heady parrot It was a MP game.. But from experience, it's where indie games fail.
heady parrot
yep networking isn't easy 😃 especially if you add physics to the mix
.. and I'm working on a multiplayer game with physics.. /cry
wicked oak
yeah, the sword is going to be disabled on MP
for that reason
i dont want to deal with physics MP
mighty carbon
@heady parrot networking was perfect. No lag on high ping connections. It's building community and retaining it was the biggest hurdle.
heady parrot
getting physics working on a game like this is quite fundamental to me 😃
not something I'd skip
wicked oak
Rama has done networked physics
by adding force to the objects in the direction that they "should be"
heady parrot
yes
wicked oak
only teleport if they get too desynced
heady parrot
it works quite well
its the method I've been playing around with lately, and it keeps the object physical all the time and doesnt need to be turned kinematic
mighty carbon
I think all our simulation was done on client
heady parrot
so for example if you swing a sword at a wall the sword gets "left behind" and once your hand goes X distance from it you lose the grip
mighty carbon
(not that we had advanced physics)
wicked oak
problem ive had with that kind of physics is lag
the sword lags behind the hand
then i have to attch the hand to the sword
then its just latency
heady parrot
100% solvable 😃 I've done it
wicked oak
becouse physics
mighty carbon
why do you even network physics ?
wicked oak
my current one does solve latency, but it clips items real fast
heady parrot
you calculate the applied velocity from where the sword is and where it is supposed to be, not just the velocity of the hand
and you ofc need to do both linear and angular velocity
wicked oak
yup. I want to get it better
another issue is when you teleport and you fall short
becouse its a teleport game
and there are ranged enemies
so those wont get close to you
in a melee only game, you can make the enemies go to you
heady parrot
yeah you need to special case the teleporting, you dont want a crazy sword chasing you 😃
throw stuff at the ranged ones 😃 but throwing is quite involved, more so than most people get into
wicked oak
i do have throwing
FIREBALL throwing
people love it
its also an AOE spell, so if you miss, its not bad
heady parrot
yeah I saw in the trailer, but it didnt look quite natural.. perhaps it feels different in vr
wicked oak
feels great
heady parrot
how are you deciding the exit velocity? frame spanned?
wicked oak
and it flies
mighty carbon
why not to just spawn it on the client ?
heady parrot
most people just parent objects to your hand you pick up
wicked oak
they feel great, but you lose physics reaction
they get the last moment update, and they get 0 latency
mighty carbon
spawn your fireball on release. This way you don't have to have any attachments or physics until it's spawned,
wicked oak
hell nah, my fireball has to be shown from the begining
you can slam it on an enemy
without throwing it
heady parrot
I'd agree with that direction 😃
mighty carbon
sure, have it as part of your hand model
hide it when you "shoot" it and spawn projectile fireball
heady parrot
then you need to calculate the velocity yourself
mighty carbon
just saying.. less networking, less lag.
sullen stirrup
any idea on where I can get one of these? https://youtu.be/yd98RGxad0U
heady parrot
@wicked oak have you done any accuracy tests on the throw? since this isn't deterministic physics
wicked oak
no need, people like it
more than 500 people played the game, i received no complains about the fireballs
in fact, everyone loved them
mighty carbon
@sullen stirrup get yourself a time machine ?
heady parrot
you might have issues where one client says you damaged something but on another client it didnt
wicked oak
the actual throwing will be replicated server side
sullen stirrup
err
wicked oak
so when a player throws the ball, it will replicate position/velocity to server, wich will update with that last direction
sullen stirrup
I'd like to fly as fake as he does
heady parrot
what are you after in that video Adam, the shirt? 😃
wicked oak
or i might just go and do it clientside, fuckit
sullen stirrup
😄
wicked oak
ima leave, bye
heady parrot
thats the right way to go really, you sample the pos and velo at point of release. My point is if its PhysX controlled the whole way you will get varying results between clients
cya blanco
mighty carbon
@wicked oak Steel Storm and ToM games are almost entirely client-side games. That's why they are so responsive almost on any connection.
heady parrot
yeah but if you go client authoritative then you are very prone to hacking 😉
Valkyrie uses a mix, the server can correct you
mighty carbon
as if most games are hack proof 😉
heady parrot
probably nothing is hack proof, but its kinda rude to leave the door wide open isnt it? 😃
mighty carbon
people can run private servers
nah, not really
run your company secure dedicated server and let people run their private servers
problem solved
mighty carbon
actually it's server authoritative - server handles major events, sends small bits of data over network, let client do all the mundane stuff that results in bandwidth consumption.
mighty carbon
o.O
pearl tangle
hah yep. So while I am my team sit here nit picking over tiny little details on our stuff we are going up against that piece of crap
they are pushing the PR on it hard too since they think its great for some reason
mighty carbon
odd
some kind of insane liquid sim with user floating through could look much better 😃
pearl tangle
anything would have been better im sure
another agency in sydney did a really nice ad for Schwepps a few years back that I think would have made a cool VR experience
mighty carbon
yeh
pearl grove
mighty carbon
👍
silk lodge
@clever sky I feel like this current gen has a lot of life left
clever sky
I'd say so... or at least, any updates at this point would be marginal
silk lodge
I could run some stuff in 4k / eye
clever sky
Might as well invest in content!
silk lodge
if vr stopped
if these vives were the end
it would be years till we hit the best titles
pearl tangle
hopefully can get our hands on some wireless stuff early next year
mighty carbon
I think this gen will be over when content pushes hardware to its max potential
and it's not going to happen any time soon
price drop, better input, feet tracking, more accessories, etc. is what we should see
wintry escarp
hmmm slight issue, the HMD over rides my joystick reading...even thought the joystick is moving the camera...nor rotating it
mighty carbon
HMD as Gear VR ?
wintry escarp
yes
mighty carbon
Gear VR has nothing that interfaces with gamepad
it literally has only IMUs and that's it
clever sky
A thing I made in VR
mighty carbon
gamepad interfaces with the phone directly
mighty carbon
yeh, BT gamepad connects t the phohe, as if it's regular Android phone
wintry escarp
but theres gearvr games that use gamepads according to reviews
mighty carbon
yeah
and you work with gamepad as if you were making a standard non-VR game for Android
wintry escarp
yes, if I turn off vr mode I can move the camera around
mighty carbon
if your gamepad works on Android for non-VR, it will work in VR. If some Gear VR games don't have input setup properly (and Unity is known to have issues with gamepads on Android), gamepad won't work and it has zero to do with Gear VR
what VR mode?! My gamepads for example have no such thing
mighty carbon
this is UE4 chat
and with UE4, gamepad works fine
gamepad should only be used to move around and press buttons. Turning should be done with your head and never with right analog stick (or any stick for that matter)
@clever sky Daz 3D ? 😃
@clever sky btw, this is my old game I'd like to re-boot in VR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofzku7GZ0_w
wintry escarp
hahahaa, I spend so much time in here I forgot it was ue4
nice fire
skellingtons with shoes
midnight tree
has anybody messsed with the vr expansion plugin in .14?
having issues trying to open the example project
wintry escarp
not me, I'm prototyping in unity first to see if my idea works or makes you feel ill
midnight tree
im working on some other things unity too, but would like to work in ue4 as i like that engine more. that vr expansion looks amazing and addresses a lot of my issues but having issue firing it up :/
wintry escarp
if it looks like its viable i'll switch to ue4 for better look and a ton of ready assets
wintry escarp
I find unity a lot easier to play in so testing will be done there
midnight tree
yeah unity seems simple, but i personally started in ue4 so its more familiar to me.
both have pros and cons for sure
wintry escarp
sleep time, gnight all
mighty carbon
o/
pearl tangle
unity easier for prototyping? Not sure how that works for you considering how fast blueprints are
granite jacinth
So
I just did two full months of Unity
And of course two Unreal Projects also in the past two months
This was my second time in UNity
I tried it out for 3 months last year
I can now say that Unity isn't bad
There are things I like about it over Unreal, and vice versa
Now, easier to prototyping.... I don't know, once you find a workflow in Unity and C#, it is pretty fast
But having been with UE4 and BP for two years now...
I think sure, I am faster with BP
So, it really just depends on the person and what they are more familiar with
Also... VR in Unity is actually a lot better than Unreal
pearl tangle
how so with the VR?
pearl tangle
i used to use unity all the time but definitely didn't take me long to get much faster in blueprints. especially once you have rigged together a few things
i have
just not sure what is better about it from your side of things specific to vr
granite jacinth
And you prefer UE4's VR implementation over Unity?
I don't see how...
And I am an UE4 fanboy...
storm vortex
I don't notice any difference if you have the forward rendering enabled. Is there something else?
pearl tangle
i like the look of unitys vr editor better than the unreal 1 but i haven't tried it out yet
and i like the fact unity has easier capability with mixed reality
storm vortex
My biggest gripe with Unreal VR games is it always seems to swap the hand position. So I have to swap controllers depending on what game I played last.
digital marlin
I'm not 100% sold on mixedVR - though it's very early days I suppose.
granite jacinth
TBH, AR is the future
pearl tangle
yeah AR is 100% where 90% of tech is going to go.
VR is just going to be entertainment. AR will be everything
im waiting to get the Epic hololens build so i can start porting my VR stuff over to that rather than having to build the things in unity
granite jacinth
Sorry, was distracted in blueprints
So, yes AR is definitely going to be WAY MORE involved in our daily lives
Than a headset ever will be
That is pretty much the issue, the HMD
And obviously the PC you need attached to it 90% of the time
attached in this case does not mean tethered
pearl tangle
hololens is already quite impressive technology. give it another 5 years and it will be ubiquitous
id say in 10 years 90% of people will be using AR instead of desktop computers/ laptops for regular work and pretty much everybody in a factory will be using 1
mighty carbon
AR is cool, but soooooo far off that I wouldn't even bother with it yet 😃
pearl tangle
not that far off at all
look how much of a change there has been with VR in 5 years
expect the same change minimum with AR but companies are putting billions into AR compared to the small amount of investment going into VR
winged shale
Hololens is rather far along. It's quite impressive and compelling what it can do. Just needs to have outside-capable tracking and a much wider FOV and it will be more than excellent
digital marlin
And cheaper.
When I think of AR I think of bloody pokemon go, not holograms. So I get your point
pearl tangle
it doesn't need outside tracking. thats the whole point that the inside out tracking it has so well
the FOV is the main issue at the moment but that can be solved, just currently costs a lot more money so not worth them doing that for a developer kit
the Daqri headset has about 2* the hololens FOV and they are trying to charge 15k euros for them
digital marlin
Yeah I saw the MS dev kit. Just way too expensive for us to justify. Though we're not a huge company.
pearl tangle
yeah unless you have a client need I wouldn't be buying 1 either. I got 2 of them over here and still haven't used them for anything yet
digital marlin
Cool, send me one.
pearl tangle
sounds fair
ive got 1 on loan out at the moment was meant to pick up a couple weeks ago
pearl tangle
got about a dozen of them lying around that also hardly ever get used hah
pearl tangle
https://www.zappar.com/ interesting
seems very restrictive trying to do in their own software rather than creating an SDK for popular engines
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/713418541/zapbox-experience-mixed-reality-for-just-30/ for that i mean
granite jacinth
@pearl tangle looks very interesting actually
Since it is using other hardware, it can do that
Just like careboard
cardboard
pearl tangle
yeah its not too complex to build in unreal actually anyways
so seems like they are kind of shooting themselves in the foot by not just integrating their software with unreal and unity instead of trying to get people to use their software
granite jacinth
@pearl tangle you know what's good about this though?
Other companies are going to try it
If they can make money off a $30 device
imagine what they can do at $70-$99
cough Daydream, GearVR
pearl tangle
yeah daydream blocked off the sensor stuff though
would be great if they update the daydream specs with different tiers like bronze is just the basic vr requirements, silver gives generic marker based AR and gold uses tango type stereo camera for inside out tracking
silk lodge
I wonder how laggy this is for people to use
digital marlin
fuck that video is kinda hard to watch
Not having a go at them. They're obviously very smart
But they disgust me.
jk jk
silk lodge
I have a game planned just cuz I've got a cool video idea for kickstarter 😛
pearl tangle
interesting to test out anyways. I did some augmented reality stuff back on the DK2 by sticking a webcam on the top of it to achieve pretty much the same thing
native cedar
Is there any channel to get assistance from Nvidia? I am building a product with their VR funhouse 4.11 thing but there are pernicious issues that I can never figure out
pearl tangle
i dont think the fun house has any kind of support its just a free thing to mod. They have the competition thing going on though so maybe they have some kind of channel in there or people posting on some forum somewhere
native cedar
Thanks. It is weird that no one used their source version of funhouse, it has amazing techs for VR. Maybe it's because it has issues
pearl tangle
all the stuff they have in there is in their other branches of unreal so you can already do that.
VRworks has most of the tech stuff then they have their other branches for flex, turbluence, wave works, vxgi etc
clever sky
Dammit. I missed the AR/VR debate again!
Anyway, there is no real divide between AR/VR.
And certainly as soon as the tech can do it, it'll be the same damn thing.
Consider this.
Proponents of AR claim people will be using it for everyday purposes.
Likely this involves using normal computing as we do, except with floating windows instead of flat and bound displays.
But... why wouldn't you also want to be able to jazz up your space that you're in while working in VR?
like instead of a small 3x5m room with white walls, use AR to replace them with nice scenic backgrounds.
If you're doing that... at what point is the demarcation between AR and VR?
Is it as long as you have a coffee cup visible it's AR?
Or a keyboard?
wicked oak
i allways say it in a simple way
clever sky
Or is it a percentage?
wicked oak
if it locks the external world, its VR
if it doesnt, its AR
in your case above, would be AR
clever sky
But that's the thing. It's a bit too one sided in favour of AR.
If that's the definition you're using.
Because any time I bring in the real world, then it becomes AR.
wicked oak
gotta wait 2 years or so
clever sky
But what about those tags to identify position of objects?
clever sky
What about chaperone bounds; which are kinda like part of the real world?
wicked oak
they arent, VR headsets are opaque
clever sky
As a result... we're not really talking about a divide so much as we're talking about convergence between AR/VR
wicked oak
AR are seethrough
clever sky
What if you have cameras mounted on the front of VR?
wicked oak
what you are talking about goes kind of into "mixed reality"
clever sky
And they bring them inside in real time?
wicked oak
when its AR but to the scale of VR
clever sky
Mixed reality is the entire AR/VR spectrum.
That's the future of this technology. There's no AR future better than the VR future - it's an MR future.
Where you switch between AR and VR contextually
depending on how immersed you want to be.
wicked oak
what ill probably do the second i get my hands into a proper AR device is a pokemon style game
or a card game where the card monsters or whatever can follow you
with cute pets/monsters
clever sky
Yeah, someone is already working on a pokemon rip off.
wicked oak
but thats probably too obvious and will be done by others
clever sky
Well, by rip-off I mean pokemon in AR 😛
wicked oak
ive seen the videos
clever sky
and then getting shut down by Nintendo because come on, this is what they do!
wicked oak
i mean about creating a similar thing, but actual global sized mmo
letting you battle your friends and things like that
clever sky
Idiotic fans. Make inspirations, don't use the Nintendo IP. They're famously litigious. The moment you show your shit, it gets shut down!
clever sky
If you want to use someone's IP, use Sega's. They encourage this fan made stuff.
wicked oak
yeah, go C&D the metroid remake guys, when they have made a better job with the metroid franchise than Nintendo
AM2R is a very solid metroid game 2d
clever sky
Haha... well, Nintendo's going to Nintendo.
wicked oak
i think nintendo cant Metroid anymore
doesnt fit their "toy" stuff
Metroid is a darker franchise, its more meant as hardcore gaming
wicked oak
yeah, but compare the general tone of metroid with every other nintendo franchise
clever sky
But it was never like I don't know... resident evil style
clever sky
It's just further out than mature Link'
wicked oak
quite a lot more
its also a cool character, with samus. Samus doesnt need to open her mouth to be badass
but then you have Other M
clever sky
Oh well. I think we both agree they've mismanaged Metroid
wicked oak
nintendo PLZ
wicked oak
they have pretty much the strongest female character in gaming, and they make her dont use their powers becouse she doesnt have "permission" from her superior
clever sky
good stuff... but would be amazing with native VR.
wicked oak
WTF nintendo
wicked oak
she is, but Other M is kind of "early"
wicked oak
in Other M, shit happens, and you run around following the orders from the supervisor
and instead of getting upgrades, you have them all, but arent authorized to use thme
clever sky
Haha.... jeez
clever sky
Yeah, I can see why.
wicked oak
its a good fit
wicked oak
you could ddo onward style locomotion
clever sky
Fight bosses. Weee
wicked oak
with slow speed
clever sky
Fuck no. I got my own locomotion system 😛
wicked oak
alright
wicked oak
but yes, Metroid formula goes perfect on VR
clever sky
But you'll understand once I do an alpha release of this locomotion demo I've been working on.
wicked oak
becouse its more of a puzzle/inmersive game than actual 100% combat
and guess what medium is best for inmersion
wicked oak
i have to play it now that we have Spacewarp
last time i did it lagged
and it lagged HARD
clever sky
Oh yeah... now that I remember it... only Prime was playable in VR D:
not the trilogy
Because of some render plane overlaying the HUD and 1/3rd of the game screen
wicked oak
fuck, i should go into that and edit it
did you know i ported Unreal Tournament 2 to the DK2?
clever sky
Which is a damn shame, because Trilogy is the one that has the decent control scheme.
wicked oak
it was a fucking disaster so i dropped it
wicked oak
cant do that on UT XD
the video shows the implementation i had
you can see you are perfectly accurate
the HUD is in a curved plane in front on you, and aim is decoupled
this is before motion controls
clever sky
That's pretty good. Is that a UE4 port of UT2?
clever sky
Ah
clever sky
Really? Can you use them for your own stuff?
wicked oak
not the assets
wicked oak
at the start it was yes, but they switched the license not long after starting
the actual assets are for UT
yeah, such a shame
clever sky
Makes sense.
wicked oak
i could really use those modular meshes
clever sky
Kinda a branded identity
wicked oak
for the code feel free to grab stuff or to use stuff for your project
you can also mod UT all you want
or fork it and change stuff
clever sky
Don't want their good stuff to be attached to a bunch of mediocre indy stuff 😛
Wonder if they'll make robo recall free to use
pearl tangle
nah they wont be
Oculus has their hand in that 1 too much I think
would be handy to get the stuff from it though thats for sure, their setup for breaking apart the robots is really cool with the stretching and tearing of the hydraulic parts and whatnot
wicked oak
could at least release Bullet Train
its a very simple project, would do great as a sample
after all, the ones before it were released
Showdown and Couch Knights
clever sky
Funnily enough, Oculus have been pretty generous about releasing their projects on Unreal.
Probably more for learning than using their assets though D:
@mighty carbon Pic of mannequin in funky pose was done with 'Thread Studio'... pretty great VR app that no one seems to be talking about.
Also, yeah, a well done dungeon crawler would have a lot of potential in VR
jagged vale
does vanishing realms count? 😛
clever sky
It was a good launch title
But I think no one will consider it a classic in the long run.
jagged vale
definitely not a classic, no current vr games would be tbh
whole lotta tech demos
i don't think any teleport games are going to live long
clever sky
The Lab will continue setting the quality bar for a while I think.
clever sky
But... I think there are probably a few VR games out already that will have a cult following for years.
That kind of stuff is more clear in hindsight
jagged vale
which ones?
jagged vale
ah was hoping there'd be some i had missed
clever sky
Raw Data maybe. Out of Ammo perhaps.
Job Simulator is still an interesting experience unique to VR
Climbey? That's good fun.
Hopefully Vertigo turns out as good as it looks
Arizona Sunshine might be pretty good.
clever sky
And there's a bunch of Oculus stuff that has a good potential too.
Touch stuff to be clear
jagged vale
have you seen the stuff ubisoft is making? seems incredibly overpriced
jagged vale
they can price that high if they make something worth it, just doesn't see mlike it is
clever sky
Yeah. They scale their content to the market size, but not their price.
But then they still have the overhead of paying teams of people to work on the stuff...
jagged vale
silly noodles
clever sky
Because they just don't have the sort of work force skill sets that indies need to have to function
i.e. generalists with a lot of overlapping skills
I hope 'The Climb' turns out to be awesome with touch controllers.
Because the climbing stuff I'm doing beats the tar out of the gamepad experience 😛
jagged vale
kind of want to avoid rift even only on principle, because they're doing exclusives
clever sky
Honestly, I think Oculus is healthy for the VR ecosystem in the long run.
jagged vale
but no room scale is a bad thing too imo
jagged vale
yeah for sure, just don't htink exclusives is the way to do that
clever sky
They're kinda like... in the market position of an early ATI. But adopting the market practices of Nvidia 😛
mighty carbon
Can't use UT4 assets outside of UT4
Btw, is there a template for hands (rigged model) and controller for Touch?
hard light
to my knowledge, not yet
I haven't seen one for Daydream yet either
there are hand meshes already though, you can do what you want with those
mighty carbon
http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2016/11/29/superdata-slashes-psvr-sales-estimate-750k-worldwide/
@hard light 4.15 will be coming with Daydream controller/hand model (through Google's updated SDK )
Oh, I just want to make my own hands and anims for Touch (and Vive), so when I get my Rift/Touch I would have what I need to mess with
wicked oak
@mighty carbon not surprised
good that DWVR already runs in it
gotta get them moneyz from PSVR
maybe i do VRMultigames full version for PSVR
could get me cash
i just need to hire an artist to make it have a consistent artstyle and do a few more minigames
tawdry dragon
Have any of you guys gotten around a good way of showing debug info in your Vive while playing around? The "Print string to screen" is out of view unless you spam it a couple of times
mighty carbon
make UMG UI (3D widget aligned to view) and output text into the 3D widget ?
clever sky
I just keep putting on and taking off my headset 😛
And also spam
And if I'm really motivated, I use text renders
and output to those :p
wicked oak
looking for iddeas for the store bullshots
you have seen my game already, what kind of screenshots do you think would be cool?
for the store
mighty carbon
what is "bullshot" ?
wicked oak
its a abreviation of "bullshit" and "screenshot"
said jokingly, but basically the super high quality, finely done screenshots that you see on videogame boxes or Steam
for example this
from Asseto Corsa
or this, from Darksiders
they do a carefully planned screenshot, with a cool camera angle, every graphic setting to the absolute max, the HUD disabled, and the characters perfectly posed
also photoshop
cobalt relic
Bullshots are not that
Well you can say that but those are hardly the worse offenders
Those that Steam is banning are completely bullshit, like not even aprt of the game
wicked oak
im basically going to do like the darksiders ones
this is one example
just new ones
and without the logo
wicked oak
its also fake as hell btw
cobalt relic
It does represent the game
cobalt relic
My own screenshots are also processed a bit, it's usually max settings, HUD off
And obviously they're staged, it's not like you take a random frame of a gameplay video as promo screenshot
The key is to be honest
wintry escarp
psvr needs a killer app
mighty carbon
does anyone have fast POM-like material for VR ?
clever sky
Oh... those PSVR custom controllers are cute.
mighty carbon
debating whether to go hand-painted textures or with whatever I can get on Marketplace / Asset Store and then try matching art style for textures for assets made from scratch as close as possible
hard light
if doing your own textures is an option, do that
it'll help give your game a unique visual identity
mighty carbon
yeah.. I just wish I had time for that 😦
wicked oak
gameplay screenshot #1
how do you see it?
spot the fake lights
there are 2 of them
should i add a blue light on the skeleton that is getting shot?
clever sky
Looks fine
wicked oak
or add more enemies around
clever sky
More enemies
hard light
needs unicorns
mighty carbon
IMO the best way to sell your game (read as get people interested) is to make 360 deg. stereo "screenshots", 360 deg. stereo video and a demo where they can move in a small area (maybe have frozen in time AI and one weapon that shoots "rubber" bullets)
wicked oak
(of course the actual screenshot is 4k resolution, this is just a screencapture of that to lower its size)
that too
but i wont add enemies there
wicked oak
its easier to use sequencer to trigger the FX
and set the animation on the exact frame you want
mighty carbon
but yeah, 360 deg stereo shots and video is much better than staged fake 2D screenshots
(although you can stage 360 deg. stills too and even post process them 😉 )
wicked oak
oculus store can take cubemap
mighty carbon
what about Vive ?
mighty carbon
not even 360 deg. stereo videos ?
well, I guess Valve, as always, doesn't care to provide PR tools for devs
I'd go all out for Oculus Store with 360 deg. stereo media and with staged 2D shots for Vive/PS4
wicked oak
everyone knew those were bullshit
its been like that every time
what i did expect is at least twice or thrice more sales than both oculus + vive
and there it goes
its also not christmas yet
hard light
I don't get how the predictions can be so high if it's more or less sold out everywhere
because that means they literally didn't ship enough units to meet their own sales expectations!?
ah, external agencies
always ignore people like Superdata, they're completely clueless
"most analysts had predicted that Sony would sell 2.3 million PSVR headsets this year alone"
To who, and in only three months? Never gonna happen
half a million sounds more right to me
mighty carbon
aye
wintry escarp
theyd need a big PS title to go VR only
hard light
Rigs.
but yeah, you don't port existing franchises to new formats, that's a bad idea
not unless they're really suitable
wicked oak
they say its around 750k sold
wich seems about right
i would expect that to pass 1 million now on christmas
remember, this black friday, Ps4s habe been super cheap
so getting a psvr for christmas makes sense
wintry escarp
don't you really need to new faster ps4 for a proper VR experience?
hard light
PSVR is way better on the Pro, but not necessary
wintry escarp
hmmm this time next summer they'll be targeting pro, normal ps4 will be a meh cut down version
I don't think one of my game ideas is doable 😦
rotation is a big cause of motion sickness isn't it
mighty carbon
I am waiting for Project Scorpio
mighty carbon
I just don't like Sony's procedures and pricing (for devs)
hard light
also, having fixed points of reference can help (e.g. cockpits)
wintry escarp
I wanted a game where player is in the middle and being attacked from all sides
mighty carbon
there are some of those games on Gear VR, @wintry escarp
wintry escarp
best thing ive seen so far is a dinosaur in a forest, but I don't think its realtime 3d
pretty sure its just 360 video
hard light
the Apatasaurus JP demo is 3d
wintry escarp
yes but 3d meshes realtime, or 3d 360 video
scenery is simple but the dinosaur looked very good for a phone to render
wintry escarp
yes its 3d
when it sticks its head out at you its a good effect
anything good I should see on gearvr
ive seen dinosaur and cirque de soleil
mighty carbon
if you are a fan of space ship shooters, there are a few games there
Smash! is okay (and free afaik)
Dreadhalls supposedly good if you don't get sick from moving as in ordinary FPS using gamepad
You can sideload Quake too 😃
other than that, I didn't like any game they have on Gear VR
mostly watched Netflix and Oculus/Samsung videos
wintry escarp
tried mincecraft?
wintry escarp
I'm dubious about that running well on a phone
mighty carbon
I don't like Minecraft to begin with
and it doesn't have teleporting mechanics, so I would get sick from linear motion
wintry escarp
can you use vr just for the 3d effect, ignoring gaze etc or is that frowned on
in a game
mighty carbon
not sure what you mean
hard light
the JP Apatasaurus demo is real time 3D
wintry escarp
hmmm say you did bomberman in 3d, VR would allow nice popout 3d visuals
you wouldn't require looking around if you kept old viewpoint
hard light
it's a pretty simple demo though, it's one skeletal mesh, a couple of static mesh props, and a simple cylinder / skydome
wintry escarp
ambershee it has a lot of skin movement
mighty carbon
@hard light did you make it? The complexity of it and low resolution indicates it's a 3D video.
you can literally see compression artifacts
unless everything is video except the dinosaur
wintry escarp
that wouldn't make sense, the background is the simple bit
hard light
I've seen a breakdown of the dinosaur, it's a fairly normal skeletal mesh, the lighting effects are cubemap based
wintry escarp
you cant actually move, that's why I thought it was 360 vr
hard light
(it's not really lit in real time)
the background may well be video, I couldn't say
it's possible the end result was 360 video I guess, but I have it and it didn't look it to me
mighty carbon
I see no shadows from characters 😦
having at least blob shadows would help grounding them
mighty carbon
right
but
if you check Showdown project, they have blob shadows
it's just a sphere with clever material that projects black blob onto the surface below
mighty carbon
There is a thread of the forum where RyanB explained to me how to make it, but I totally don't like UE4's materials (mind boggling) and I couldn't figure it out
yeah, that's what I did
but
it's not robust
only works on flat surfaces that face upward
Bullet Train has a much better version of it
At some point I guess I am gonna have to hire someone to make that material :/
lucky you - I posted material I managed to salvage from Showdown 😉
I think the issue was that it depended on global Z coordinate where it should depend on the floor's Z
plus it gets clipped if geometry with blob gets clipped by other geometry
mighty carbon
good
wicked oak
showdown blob shadows are like the early version of capsule shadows
capsule shadows are quite similar to that
mighty carbon
not performance wise
wicked oak
yeah
wintry escarp
cant you have proper shadows on dektop vr?
mighty carbon
yeah, using stationary light source
(and modulated shadows perhaps)
you can actually use stationary directional light and modulated shadows on Gear VR
on S6 it sucks, but on S7 should work fine
although on desktop I think normal dynamic shadows can work just fine
I think 4.16 or 4.17 will have most of the issues sorted out as far as rendering in VR
btw, is it possible to get Touch without Rift and use Touch while rendering on the monitor ?
storm vortex
I want to know that same thing for the Vive. Would be nice to control the camera on the PC with a mouse but still use controllers so I don't have to keep putting on and off the headset.
wintry escarp
what IS a modulated shadow?
mighty carbon
@wintry escarp follow the link
silk lodge
@wicked oak those logos are way easier to see
wicked oak
they look great on the VR version of the store too
silk lodge
does anybody know the guys who made launch squad?
mighty carbon
@storm vortex I don't know about Vive, but apparently IMUs/buttons data from Touch transfers to Rift. So it's not possible to use Touch without Rift.
storm vortex
The closest thing I found was the debug mode. I think it was " key and then you could fly around after pressing tab but of course hands were not attached to camera anymore
dusky moon
Guys, Any1 here faced this issue ?! :
I have a VR project based on Sequencer . And The sequence is 2 minutes , but when I play it in VR with UE 4.13 the playback speed depends on the framerate. so when the fps drops, it plays everything in Slow Motion ! which means it takes 3.5 minutes to play the whole sequence .... but in 4.12 I didn't have this issue ...
heady parrot
There was someone reporting the same thing here a couple weeks ago
unless that was also you 😃
heady parrot
did you look into the things we pointed you at?
like trying to set another actor in the scene that isnt controller by sequencer
dusky moon
unfortunately I don't have access to my PC because I'm in travel for some festivals
so I can't iterate :/
but generally, I think there should be a way to fix the playback speed regardless of framerate
I still can't get it ... why it used to be ok in 4.12
mighty carbon
you should just report it to AsnwerHub as a bug
heady parrot
or try it in 4.14
dusky moon
yes , I think 4.14 is my last hope ... if not answershub
mighty carbon
seriously, if you report to AH asap, and poke Epic about it, you have a good chance to get a fix in one of the hotfixes of next release
sometimes I wonder why people don't report stuff right away :/
heady parrot
People need first to be sure its not something they are doing 😉
mighty carbon
(I know some folks are still with 4.9 or 4.10 because certain things don't work, and yet they haven't bothered to report it)