I always loathed the idea
#virtual-reality
junior prism
Yup
granite jacinth
This may confuse buyers more
And put them off
Which will have the reverse effect they want
Competition is good. Do not get me wrong.
But yeah... this is why we only have two real console companies now
dry fjord
fragmentation doesn't matter as long as the platform stays coherent
and the platform is openVR
granite jacinth
If Nintendo does not go straight mobile/games after switch.... they suck
wicked oak
if those headsets work with steam VR, it will be much better
Oculus still isnt really opening their SDK becouse they want to have perfect control
to guarantee a good experience
dry fjord
oculus can die
granite jacinth
We are missing too much info still
wicked oak
maybe later they will, they are interested on the platform, not the haardware
dry fjord
it's not to guarantee a good experience, arguably closed source leads away from that.
no they're interested in monopolizing
granite jacinth
OpenVR is not THE platform
wicked oak
they want to have their store and stuf
dry fjord
they deserve for die for being predatory this early
wicked oak
but they are better than steamVR
granite jacinth
Even vive has viveport now
dry fjord
openVR is the platform we should be supporting
wicked oak
becouse we are talking about Valve
dry fjord
boring argument is boring
granite jacinth
Tbh... I am sort if against supporting one platform
wicked oak
becouse they paid for therir dev
dry fjord
also invalid
granite jacinth
Of*
wicked oak
do you think that Robo recall would happen without oculus
hell no
or that game from the metro guys
if you want anything other than steam microgames, you need that oculus money
junior prism
Here's what needs to happen
dry fjord
the platform is also a standard. it'd be really crazy to try to have two mainstream standards. look at HD-DVD and bluray.
dry fjord
haha yes
granite jacinth
Wrong
junior prism
Right
granite jacinth
We just need two or three solid platforms
dry fjord
we don't need an apple and an android in VR
junior prism
because that worked so well 😛
wicked oak
GPUS were locked at the start
dry fjord
you can definitely argue that android fragmentation has hurt mobile as a whole
junior prism
dry fjord
absolutely relevant
junior prism
I feel like Trump
granite jacinth
Wrong
junior prism
They are relevant
dry fjord
are you spanish victor?
junior prism
If you're narrowing your scope of data to just gamedev, ain't gonna get that far
Even so
granite jacinth
That is a factor
dry fjord
I see you like the "I'm a bit slow" angle on arguing
granite jacinth
The consoles
dry fjord
I favour it myself too sometimes
granite jacinth
The players themselves have nothing to do with it
If it had, one of them would have won last gen
junior prism
In terms of sales?
granite jacinth
Both were very relevant
junior prism
Nintendo killed it
granite jacinth
And still are
junior prism
Like stomped them both
dry fjord
are you aware that things happen in the industry that you're not aware of?
junior prism
The HD-DVD add-on vs Blu-ray bundled was a BIG deal
It's one of the factors that led Blu-ray to win
We all know what actually tipped the victory to Blu-ray
but I don't want to hear about that shit here
dry fjord
and that basically hilights my point. Good marketing destroyed a perfectly viable medium.
granite jacinth
You guys are talking about shit that had no effect
dry fjord
agreed
junior prism
@granite jacinth You would make a really shitty analyist 😛 Remember to make sure I never hire you as one 😛
dry fjord
that was part of it on a consumer angle
junior prism
You have to get data from all relevant fields
dry fjord
but how can consumers buy something that has no vendor?
granite jacinth
But this has nothing to do with the original topic
dry fjord
there are things going on behind that front that make all the difference
dry fjord
sure it does
dry fjord
we're talking about the viability of a platform
granite jacinth
With real world examples
dry fjord
I have a preference for a singular platform
granite jacinth
Which would have been
dry fjord
I can't talk about real world examples because I work in that industry
dry fjord
that's a strange way to look at it
dry fjord
anyway, HD-DVD versus bluray is not only a real world example (it happened, look it up), for reasons I can't go into it's entirely relevant as a comparison
granite jacinth
Back to real stuff relating to gamedev
dry fjord
HD-DVD is effectively dead. you cannot buy a new HD-DVD unit.
granite jacinth
We support multiple platforms now and it is good for everyone
junior prism
No it's not good for everyone
granite jacinth
Competition is good
junior prism
The ill informed consumer misses out massively
granite jacinth
The answer is NOT to banner under ONE flag though
dry fjord
I don't care how we come to have a single standard whether it's through industry agreement like with vulkan or sheer dominance like with directx, having one aggressive platform going against the current and playing dirty business isn't good for us or for gamers
so if oculus wins, oculus wins
but if they're not going to win they need to fuck off
a little guy can easily fuck up a big group effort
junior prism
But, looking at the data, it most likely won't. Palmer's shindigs caused damage that echoed to the general consumer. It's realy, really fucking rare that happens
dry fjord
oculus has shown no reluctance to be misleading
granite jacinth
What will probably end up happening will be a few good contenders will emege out of this chaos.
dry fjord
it's not just palmer, as a company people find them hard to deal with
throwing money at people is one answer but it only prolongs the inevitable
granite jacinth
And then the standards will be made.
dry fjord
it's already been done
that happened a year and a half ago and it's over
you may notice microsoft isn't pushing a platform today
that's a very rare thing
when MS enters a competitive space they compete on every level. instead for a change they're just pushing the hardware and bundling in mentions of windows 10 in a token effort
and you know they're not using any oculus APIs
wicked oak
i just say one thing
look at the steam Vr market
99% shovelware, a couple good indie games
look at the upcoming oculus touch games
junior prism
Oh yeah no I totally agree on that front at the current market
But it'd be a good year - 3 before we see the top quality shit
That's natural
dry fjord
you know why the oculus "market" is a pointless argument? because it's closed.
you can't use any other hardware on it
wicked oak
you can put what you want on it
dry fjord
you might as well argue that apple is winning at android software sales
wicked oak
and ouclus works on external market
well, can you give me a SteamVR thing that isnt Vive?
junior prism
The clones, knock-offs and quick bucks will kill this fucking industry
mark my words on that
People have to sort their shit out before they fuck it up for the rest of us
dry fjord
by steamvr do you mean openvr?
wicked oak
yes
junior prism
It literally became OpenVR like last month lmfao
dry fjord
virtually every HMD out now has some support for it
wicked oak
y
junior prism
Yup
dry fjord
yeah just checking that he's not trying to talk about the steam marketplace again
junior prism
It became OpenVR last month and can already run Oculus games / OSVR games out of hte box from what I've heard
Which is pretty fucking mental from a future proof angle
dry fjord
this is like betting on a fight between a kitten and a great dane
if nothing bloody has happened yet it wasn't because the kitten decided that
dry fjord
my proof is microsoft isn't moving into that space
they're just working on hardware and pushing windows 10 again
junior prism
If people keep making clones, knock-offs and cheap cash-ins, it'll fucking kill this industry
junior prism
We should've had like a 2 year gap where developers could make the games that are 1 - 2 out
China will go for OSVR I bet
Razer is a strong brand there, isn't it?
wicked oak
chinna will go chinaVR
dry fjord
they'll support whatever is free and ubiquitous
and oculus is by definition not ubiquitous
dry fjord
my thinking is that oculus are trying to develop a brand, not a platform
wicked oak
well, yeah
dry fjord
they'll eventually "give in" and support openVR
dry fjord
so arguing that oculus has the best platform when all signs point to it being a sacrificial lamb is just not worth doing
wicked oak
and then their whole Social vr stuffs
dry fjord
absolutely
I'd agree there completely
I don't personally care which launcher people buy things through
wicked oak
the problem with steam and valve, is that they are the general storefront, they dont care about VR
junior prism
This is what I don't get though
dry fjord
but as far as oculus versus openVR go, oculus is HD-DVD
junior prism
Facebook have bummed up with Oculus to have the Oculus store
dry fjord
except with a planned demise
wicked oak
they just did openvr, vive and stuff so Oculus doesnt steal that market
junior prism
But they're also bumming up with Unity to have the Unity-Facebook store
dry fjord
oh the store is golden
wicked oak
becouse oculus store is VR
dry fjord
vblanco nailed it when he said they wanted a curated experience
wicked oak
and its ONLY VR
dry fjord
I agree with steam not being the only online games vendor
wicked oak
they curate each experience, with almost console-like process
wicked oak
your game has to work well and not get everyone sick to pass
valve doesnt even look at it
junior prism
Surely that's subjective in regards to the sickness stuff
dry fjord
on the other hand the oculus store is low quality and also garbage. nothing about it sets it apart from steam. the customer service is appalling. the support is weak.
wicked oak
you have steam, wich is the status quo
dry fjord
but it's good to have more than one
wicked oak
wich is full of shovelware, and an absolute minefield
dry fjord
so is the oculus store
wicked oak
so you better make sure your are buying well
dry fjord
no difference
junior prism
I get it Steam isn't that great, but I'd rather shoot myself in teh foot then stab myself in the dick
wicked oak
on oculus, at least you know the games have to pass review and they work well
dry fjord
but I wouldn't place much emphasis on the user experience when there are only two major options
junior prism
At least if I shoot myself in the foot, I have a bigger chance of making my money back to make another project
wicked oak
Facebook/Oculus are playing the long game
junior prism
LOL
dry fjord
I've bought games on the oculus store that were unfinished, short, overpriced and badly supported
wicked oak
thats why they are spending so much on VR games
dry fjord
and also didn't work
it's a bare-faced lie to say that the oculus store has any better quality
let's be real
wicked oak
they know to break that cycle of "low sales becouse poor games, and poor games becouse low sales"
dry fjord
whatever they are now, they will or won't be in the future. the store is just a software product and anecdotally oculus want every game they can get. there's no 'curation' process, that's complete bullshit
dry fjord
no they don't know that at all
wicked oak
it got 1 million and something
AAA publishers laugh in that
not even worth looking at
dry fjord
anyway obsessing over which store to use is amateur shit
wicked oak
and thats the biggest success
junior prism
That's because the AAA's are still cooking their VR fucking games
Minimum turn around for AAA is 2-3 years
dry fjord
I can't imagine arguing this day in and day out like you do
junior prism
for AAA scale games
wicked oak
we are starting to get some higher profile games
wicked oak
from PSVR and Oculus Touch stuff
junior prism
1 million
is fucking mindblowingly good
For such experiemental tech
I don't get your train of thought there
You're comparing new tech to established tech?
wicked oak
yes, becouse thats what AAA cares about
junior prism
The install base of Oculus and Vive atm is fucking tiny
I'm sure AAA's aren't retarded
junior prism
I've heard oculus is a lot lower
dry fjord
there's 200k vive users who can play raw data if they buy it. there's easily 100 million console and PC gamers worldwide who would be interested in Call of Duty. Let's not compare the sales of the two and pretend we're having rational lines of thinking.
wicked oak
i heard its higher
junior prism
You heard that Oculus has sold more than Vive?
Now i Know you're talking out of your ass 😛
dry fjord
one thing I hate is people who evolve along the lines of "I feel successful, I must be the smartest guy here and I don't need to hear peripheral bullshit".
junior prism
I feel unsuccessful, I must be the dumbest guy here and I need to hear peripheral bullshit
❤
wicked oak
ive heard figures beetween 200.000 and 300.000 for both vive and oculus
wicked oak
uhm, that might be a case
junior prism
The same figures back when they were the monopoly? Smart idea
dry fjord
I've seen how you talk to people vblanco, you're never wrong about anything no matter what evidence is avaialble.
wicked oak
for DK2, i think i heard around 200.000 DK2
but i might be wrong on that, let me google
junior prism
I think the mistake here is that Oculus is treating their platform like Apple
dry fjord
175k apparently
junior prism
forgetting there were years and years and years where Apple couldn't afford to be apple
dry fjord
that is exactly right
wicked oak
dk1 + dk2
dry fjord
one thing worth noting is that a huge number of those DK2 owners went on to buy vives
junior prism
It took Apple a LONG fucking time before they could say "Right, now we can be Apple 2.0 and do this preimum bullshit"
dry fjord
anyone who is remotely serious about VR bought a vive
dry fjord
not only that, when one device had motion controllers and room scale
junior prism
Would've been interesting to get a DK3 with DK3 stats before release
to see the massive fucking drop off
dry fjord
I'm not making predictions about what hardware will become the most used in the future, probably something by microsoft
wicked oak
i think AR will get more popular
dry fjord
CV1s were being given away
again, AR and VR are not different things
they're just different hardware kits this year
I went to see a friend who did an AR startup two or three years ago
fledgling as fuck, they're do ANY job
junior prism
To be fair, Vive's stats can't be trusted either
dry fjord
but they had millions to keep it going until AR takes off
junior prism
Becuase they're handing out those fucking things like candy 😛
wicked oak
uhm, not sure of that
dry fjord
everyone at that startup who thought AR and VR would require one to outdo the other have since left due to lack of vision
full junco
VR doesn't need AAA at the moment, I much prefer the great AAA games to come in a few years when screens and lenses have much higher quality in VR headsets. at the moment is the time for indie games
wicked oak
i did talk to Valve for another Vive to test multiplayer, and they told me that they dont give anything anymore
dry fjord
that might just be you
wicked oak
and i had to buy mine from retail, becouse eariler emails were rejected
dry fjord
if you're in the US it's much easier to be given hardware
full junco
why?
wicked oak
im in europe
dry fjord
I know
simple ease of support and access
I'm talking a year or two ago
things were a lot newer
junior prism
I got my vive like 6 months ago and I'm in the UK 😛
dry fjord
I don't see much reason to give out free hardware to anyone now either
everyone's targeting funds
junior prism
I'm getting a free OSVR too 😛
dry fjord
taiku is special and has contacts 😉
junior prism
"WHAT ANTIDAMAGE? PLUG THE SCALE INTO THE Z? ALRIGHT. NOPE. THAT'S FUCKED"
dry fjord
oh
junior prism
"Here, have a free OSVR 2"
dry fjord
sarcasm 😉
junior prism
They're giving free marketing to it too
Which is sick as fuckkkkk
I'll take any free marketing
dry fjord
def
normal thorn
anyone get get a black screen for VR Preview? Mine was fine, then I tried `HMD mirror mode 1 and it froze, I escaped tried tried VR Preview again and its been blak ever since
tried putting hmd mirror mode into a consdole command in blueprints, didn't help
never mind
bug
dry fjord
you opened a portal to the shadow realm
normal thorn
and I didn't like what I saw
normal thorn
anyone have tips on capturing VR gameplay? nVidia shadow play is pretty good for the captureing I mean the screen of which to capture. HMD mirror 2 seems best but its that half screen deal.
I saw a plugin that someone made to capture 3rd person gameplay
for Vive, I heard Oculus has an HMD mirror mode 3 or something that is better
dry fjord
not sure if third person can be done in UE
you might be able to record every frame from the scenegraph and then re-record it with custom camera positions
normal thorn
normal thorn
LOL yeah
dry fjord
is it just a rendertarget?
normal thorn
not sure I found the youtube video that doesn't say much
dry fjord
I'd definitely try a rendertarget and get it to save out as it goes
to like a simple image format like TGA
then reassemble them with a tool
maybe even try some kind of streaming service with compositing and a video feed too
to get you into it with a greenscreen
normal thorn
hmm that sounds hacky. I have a friend who can code things for me... might ask him to work some majic
not magic
dry fjord
it shouldn't be super hard, just save the rendertarget frame every tick async
normal thorn
well the second part would be more control over what is displayed on the PC
ideally a better camera for people watching
not super jerky
junior prism
Just remmeber if you're doing something special on the PC that you're essentially re-rendering the scene
People forget that you render the scene three times as it is
If you fuck about with render targets or a different view, you're adding more meshes to render and it can pile up quick
wraith atlas
A friend and I prototyped a breathing sensor to work in VR and made some meditative sorts of scenes in UE. Here's a sample video if anyone has any questions or feedback. We're working on therapeutic/meditation experiences that can help get people breathing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hg7_DQ82EQ
pearl tangle
quite interesting. does it handle ok with the built in vive mic?
wraith atlas
We have a version that works with the mic but it gets a lot of false positives from background noise and speaking. So we hacked together a sensor that can detect wind directly and integrated it.
clever sky
Any interest in releasing it as a marketplace asset? Would be nice to have a plug and play solution for breath in VR.
Yeah that too.
dry fjord
a marketplace asset is a magnificent idea
clever sky
FUS ROH DAH!
dry fjord
YOGA FLAME
clever sky
Sorry, I know you've got a serious application going, but seems like its presence enhancing which helps all VR! 😛
dry fjord
we're OK with acknowledgement in the credits
wraith atlas
haha super
pearl tangle
its really good in horror games when you are playing audio for breathing sounds if you show some fog coming from the breath as well it actually forces people to match the breathing rate
wraith atlas
yeah we're considering trying to get the sensor chip and mount produced
thats cool ^^
dry fjord
I want helmet fog
clever sky
Oh wait, you said it's a sensor
dry fjord
yeah
clever sky
What was wrong with using the microphone?
dry fjord
a sensor as well
clever sky
Not sensitive enough?
wraith atlas
yesh ^
dry fjord
could do some elimination with another mic if it's available
clever sky
Yeah, I can imagine that.
Especially since I've got an overhead fan that's bound to trip it
dry fjord
I would get them to blow a couple of times and use it to calibrate though
fourier transforms ftw
clever sky
OTOH, for game use application, you'd probably set the threshold high, because you're not basing gameplay around breathing shallowly
in most situations.
Just heavy breathing for fog breath and other niceties!
dry fjord
get them to blow too hard and they'll pass out
it's an amazing game mechanic
then you can steal their wallet
clever sky
Hahha
clever sky
Get them to sign extra EULAs. "Are you breathing hard now?" "Are you passing out?" "Not quite yet? Continue breathing hard to confirm"
wraith atlas
thanks for the feedback, will keep the community posted as we make progress!
clever sky
Aight, good luck.
dry fjord
later chris!
clever sky
On a side note, I wish sci-fi universes would mix giant robots and space ships more often.
It's so one or the other.
If giant robots exist, then they dominate the battlefield. Otherwise they don't exist!
clever sky
Shit yeah.
junior prism
Is not allowing Rift's to run my game cuntish?
Like do you think it'd be negative
or would it be a strong stand against their closed garden?
And a statement that I don't want to support them at all
mighty carbon
I just read some stuff above.. Open source shit is even here 🙄
closed platform is a good thing ... assuming you can get on it
dry fjord
how about that ios then @mighty carbon
pearl tangle
just release it on steam instead of oculus store?
dry fjord
I'm glad you've come to see it that way 😉
mighty carbon
eeh, I always saw it that way
junior prism
Yeah but I want to scold people for going with Oculus
mighty carbon
I just don't like Apple 😛
dry fjord
make a game that crushes the firmware on rifts?
mighty carbon
you are master of the universe, @junior prism , you can do whatever you want 😛
junior prism
Yeah but do you think it'd be a crazy out there idea
or just a cuntish move/
I think at the end of the day it'll make some people angry
and news blogs love drama
so free marketing I guess
mighty carbon
I'd be happy not to release on a store, and rather sell direct (assuming one of my projects will ever make it to the release and will be as desired as Minecraft 😛 )
I am rooting for Oculus for now
mighty carbon
I want to see MS VR specs and some reviews from devs.. If it's as good as PSVR + better tracking, I'd go with that first.. But with MS failing in pretty much every hardware attempt (except XB1 and Surface), I have my reservations
pearl tangle
hololens will be huge
dry fjord
MS aren't making the hardware
pearl tangle
they would be using the same inside out tracking method from that for a VR headset and it works amazingly well
dry fjord
they're just promoting it
mighty carbon
will be when $3000 will be pocket change and visuals will be better than Nintendo DS 😛
pearl tangle
they are making the specs and giving the production to OEM's same way they do with windows
experimental developer tech is rarely cheap
dry fjord
windows doesn't require production
mighty carbon
@pearl tangle you can't have visuals you have with Vive/Rift on Hololens
clever sky
@junior prism Stir up drama like a pro - take money from HTC and Valve, then block Rifts from working on your game.
mighty carbon
I am talking about withing my life span
dry fjord
are you dying?
clever sky
Haha 😛
dry fjord
because it's only a generation off
mighty carbon
not in some hypothetical future 😄
pearl tangle
thats because the hololens is standalone and its doing a shitload more stuff than the vr headsets do
the spatialization is the huge part of what it does that VR needs
dry fjord
this generation is all about establishing a good VR foothold. next gen is all about merging the AR and VR hardware together for a better experience in both fields.
junior prism
@clever sky Fuck yeah, I love me some HTC Vive money
mighty carbon
always dying ... Since we are born we are slowly dying 😉
junior prism
I'M ON TO YOU PALMER
Just because I hate Oculus and what they stand for doesn't mean I'm getting free money
but please tell Valve so I get free money please
pearl tangle
valve are offering funding if you agree to distribute on multiple platforms
dry fjord
microsoft know it, that's why they said there will be no big VR companies in the next gen. whoever has the best AR in their VR headset will dominate.
and the best AR isn't just a cheap trick anyone can do like with VR
pearl tangle
so they wont give you money to just develop for the vive but they will giv eyou money if you develop for vive, psvr and rift
mighty carbon
btw, is Palmer chained in Facebook's basement ?
pearl tangle
AR is set to be a $100+billion industry in 5 years, VR more like a $20billion since it will be games and entertainment. AR will be enterprise
clever sky
I could imagine that.
junior prism
Valve are offering free money?
clever sky
We should make a Vive exclusive dramatizing that.
junior prism
I want in on that shit
dry fjord
you and me both
clever sky
@junior prism Technically, they're offering you risk-free loans on your sales in advance
mighty carbon
I thought that was a grant
clever sky
Dpm
mighty carbon
not a loan
clever sky
Don't sell enough, then no worries, they'll write it off.
Sell enough, and they'll take the money back.
clever sky
I think they'd prefer you don't do that. But they're not gonna stop you!
dry fjord
so it's not from palmer's personal fund then 😉
junior prism
Do you think they've silently fired him?
clever sky
They've mothballed him.
junior prism
I would love one day
clever sky
Stuffed mothballs into all his orifices and put him in resin.
junior prism
if he turns around and said like "they kicked me out of my own company"
It's like what the fuck did you actually do
You didn't do anything unique
you were just the idiot in the right place at the right time
clever sky
He stuck crappy lenses onto a cheap cellphone screen into a box.
He made the first Google cardboard is what he did.
mighty carbon
he got Carmack interested in pushing VR
junior prism
PALMER
pallid echo
@junior prism Isn't that what its all about? Being in the right place at the right time?
junior prism
SHUSH
WE'RE TALKING
Which, we've later learnt was already being done at Besthesda and most possibly Valve
mighty carbon
it actually is
junior prism
@pallid echo Bashing Palmer because he's an asshat
And I want to block Oculus users from playing my game
pallid echo
lol
Can't all platforms just come together and be one unified platform?
Can't we all just get along?
mighty carbon
what did Palmer do to you, @junior prism ?
clever sky
You know what they say. Two ass hats makes poop go back and forth... forever.
junior prism
He was a smug bastard and a cunt put on a pedestal for nothing 😄
dry fjord
palmer's job was PR and he fucked up PR wise on a grand scale
he couldn't have fucked up much worse than what he did
he destroyed any trust a lot of people had in him
dry fjord
going away quietly is the best anyone can hope for
junior prism
He's like "What's with all this open source shit, I'll be submitting all my games with Oculus! Closed gardens are so much better!"
dry fjord
walled gardens keep poor people out
mighty carbon
didn't know he was PR guy
dry fjord
yeah he wasn't helming the company
pallid echo
Yeah I thought he was CEO
dry fjord
he sold it to facebook
clever sky
He never helmed the company.
mighty carbon
but I bet only in "free" country you can get fired for your political views 🙄
clever sky
Oculus started with Brendan Iribe in charge.
dry fjord
only in a "free" country can you get fired for being unable to do your job via your own personal actions
pallid echo
lmao
clever sky
and Palmer could've been Larry Page if he was smart.
mighty carbon
how is personal actions relate to a day job?!
junior prism
LOL, PALMER SHUSH
pallid echo
Now Palmer is yelling
grim condor
i dont blame palmer at all at the way he played
dry fjord
"your job is to be nice and relateable and make us look good"
The next day...
"Palmer everyone hates you you're fired"
grim condor
it
dry fjord
seems fiar to me
the thing is palmer was already doing a terrible job before he started funding trolls, regardless of what side they were on
mighty carbon
I could care less what he did with his money for political purposes.. It's not like he was smuggling people, financing terr'sm and drug operations...
dry fjord
he was getting destroyed in forums and actively engaging in his own destruction
his attitude was driving people off and summoning trolls
mighty carbon
people here take everything soooo personal.. pretty sad :/
dry fjord
but it's ok,. let's ignore the whole story and focus on the bit about politics that will make our argument seem high and mighty
yeah you gotta stop taking it personally
mighty carbon
it's like you care that much what other people do in their spare time
dry fjord
but a post mortem of palmer luckey's career will serve someone here one day
can't win this argument, gotta get a bit pinchy?
mighty carbon
was that an argument? didn't know that
dry fjord
you got bitey, it must have been
pallid echo
So unlike @junior prism I'm supporting ALL platforms 😄
mighty carbon
but yeah, I can see how "yay open source, open platform, we care for people" turns into "... except for people who like Oculus and republicans"
typical level of hypocrisy
dry fjord
it's only hypocrisy if you're affected emotionally by it
junior prism
I'm saying "I'm releasing on all platform but Oculus" because I hate the company 😃
They're trying to Apple-ify a new technology and run it into the ground
dry fjord
I think they're trying to impinge on your freedoms @junior prism
junior prism
HUGH MUNGUS WHAT?
winged shale
ahahahaha exclusively not Oculus
junior prism
^
pallid echo
Apple-ify is bad, mkay.
winged shale
it's the Tower Rush for all you RTS fans
except you garrison a bunch of monks and occasionally let them out to wololo
anyway, so I've got a question:
those of you who are animating a skeleton with motioncontrollers
how have you eliminated the lag between (tick character)->(writes values to IK solver)->(Anim BP tick)
clever sky
BTW, who ended up playing Yore?
winged shale
it's horrid
junior prism
Cheers for clearing up I'm not going crazy
winged shale
I'm attaching stuff to my hands, and then when I wiggle my hands move delayed to the object
junior prism
My trick is to have the hands as a seprate not animBP mesh
Then attach them with two bone IK using @dry fjord ' wizardry
winged shale
allegedly the Raw Data devs have "figured it out"
wait what
so the problem for me is that I'm animating the whole bepis
feet, torso, head, arms all attached
junior prism
Yee that's what I was doing
But the hands seperate
Then IKing the elbows 'n wrists to seem like they're attached
As per @dry fjord ' guideline
winged shale
where is this beautiful guideline
junior prism
He was guiding me on stream
But I think he should do a tutorial about it
Because I couldn't get it to work 100% 😦
Because I was using the alright rig
winged shale
so you're saying that ON TOP of the whole bepis skeletal mesh you've also got another hand mesh for each hand, which updates properly, and then the skeletal beep just lags behind but it's just "not noticeable"?
dry fjord
the guideline is right here
dry fjord
do all your usual stuff then at the end of the anim BP get your motion controller locations and use them as the effector. if you have a kinect use the elbow data as the joint target, otherwise use the back vector from the controllers to get the elbow IK target
the lag will be imperceptible
I actually added a linear interp to the kinect data and it was still acceptable, just smoother
winged shale
oh that's smart about the back vector
dry fjord
99% of the time the back vector will be right. people don't bend their wrists while they grip things unless it's an over-the-top gesture
like reaching over
wintry escarp
did MS give any date for their fancy new VR at $299?
dry fjord
just holding the controllers transfers movement to the shoulder and elbow
clever sky
... but I bend my wrists in VR all the time D:
dry fjord
you don't as much as you think you do
clever sky
Yore was all like... this is not right!
junior prism
I don't wanna know dude
dry fjord
they tend to lock in the position you need
haha
was yore that bad?
I wanted to try it D:
clever sky
Well they had half a forearm
and every time I bent my wrists, I was like... well, that's fucked.
winged shale
I could just have some directional historesis
dry fjord
I'm gonna try doing what I had taiku doing and combine my thing with the allright rig to see if it makes it any easier
clever sky
Because it was just a solid mesh
clever sky
Also Yore is buggy as shit.
I'm surprised the dude released it at this stage.
It's like 10-20% complete at best.
dry fjord
I wonder if that's why most of the game dev people were rejected as testers
winged shale
so @dry fjord , what is the flow then of AnimBPs? is it (AnimBP Tick)->(Update Pose)?
clever sky
Nah, it's because their community manager didn't talk to Ryan
or Ryan didn't talk to their community manager.
dry fjord
lame
clever sky
I only got access because I bitched to Ryan when he was here.
dry fjord
nice
clever sky
And he was all - "oh, you didn't get access? Lemme hook you up"
dry fjord
maybe taiku has a screenshot, I'm not at home so I can't show you my anim bp right now
junior prism
I'm heading to bed so I don't have it right now
winged shale
I suppose this fix is quite much of an improvement, so it outweighs the ability to thread the AnimBP update
dry fjord
I'll get you one tonight
junior prism
Can you CC me as well @dry fjord
tight grotto
Hi everyone. How can I make an object not collide with a specific object?
clever sky
Yore had basic usability bugs. Like, the UI buttons didn't work properly. A week ago.
dry fjord
ultimately your configuration just uses the hand location and the controllers keep doing their own thing
clever sky
So not surprised to see it gone panned out of the gate.
winged shale
yeah it's getting shit on
dry fjord
haha
winged shale
and then there's the wigwams that are all "but.. but it's early access!! we can expect absolute shit!"
dry fjord
I think there's money in just doing one thing to a really good degree of quality
dry fjord
vr fucking demands it
clever sky
Seriously.
winged shale
only expand if you're good enough or have enough patience/time to do it all well
winged shale
that's why I've been working on my core movement mechanic and grabbing system for 3 months
clever sky
Also the hands are not located where your hands are.
They're like... a glove that's stuck to the top of the vive controller.
dry fjord
good call
winged shale
now everything is wonderful
winged shale
the MP?
clever sky
@winged shale YES! If you're going to use hands, match your hands! Otherwise why you bothering??!
dry fjord
we all do that too
drives me nuts that hands are extensions of the controllers
get it right now and you'll be ready for the next vive controllers too
winged shale
yup
dry fjord
MP = marketplace
dry fjord
excellent
clever sky
Yeah, I was crowing about my solve for hand orientation the other day.
clever sky
haha... moving the base mesh around causes all sorts of issues.
So I just made a child mesh and hid the base mesh!
dry fjord
I had some luck with moving the base mesh
but yeah, that's a good solution too
this is before I did my IK solution
so the elbows are shit
clever sky
@dry fjord yeah that's good stuff. But one more tip - neutral prone hands are around 85% on the grip animation.
winged shale
oh man
clever sky
Yeah, I used trigger to drive the animation.
winged shale
my movement is in zero-G, and you can collide with phys objects
dry fjord
neat
clever sky
Doesn't make much difference when 'using' stuff, but when playing with your hands, it's a lot nicer.
winged shale
the code for handling everything is so goddamn twisty
dry fjord
got any screenshots?
winged shale
I'll take one
clever sky
movement is in zero-G?
winged shale
actually why the f don't I just make a video already, I've been putting off the damn social media thing so long
yeah you're in space
you grab stuff to thrust yourself off it
newton's laws and all that shit
winged shale
yeah!
winged shale
how are you guys making videos, OBS?
clever sky
Shadowplay?
dry fjord
shadowplay
dry fjord
haven't tried recording VR yet though
oh pro tip
if UE is being a dick and won't maximise...
windows and up arrow
it will ALWAYS maximise
winged shale
you mean the preview window?
clever sky
Nice.
clever sky
I run a 21:9 monitor, so I prefer to half window things
windows left + right = best window short cuts
winged shale
ugh new geforce experience update
clever sky
What else is awesome is windows+tab
winged shale
oh fucking wow
clever sky
The best.
winged shale
it just broke while installing
clever sky
@winged shale yeah, you'll have to download the stuff off their website.
Mine broke while updating too.
clever sky
Like... windows tab is so good that I don't know why they didn't just make that the new alt tab functionality.
I mean, it's just expose on Windows, but Expose is good dammit.
winged shale
same reason alt+tab has been the same since Windows 3.1
also I get it, alt+tab and alt+shift+tab works great for me, I keep a mental map of what windows I've recently used
clever sky
What's that supposed to do?
dry fjord
switching webpages is so much simpler now
it puts control shift tab in a line
and makes it easier for me to hit the control key plus anything else
no accidental capslocking
my finger broke and healed crooked
clever sky
Oh.
dry fjord
but I'd do it anyway tbh
clever sky
I'm like... yeah, normal ctrl shift tab seems much easier to me.
dry fjord
why have a key in the way that you only use when you're angry
clever sky
In fact, capslock is one of my least touched keys.
While ctrl is one of my most uses.
used
clever sky
Fair enough.
winged shale
I am using an IBM model M keyboard, so it doesn't have an OS key, so I've got caps lock mapped to WIN
clever sky
I've got too much muscle memory for standard keyboard layout.
clever sky
Maybe. But I know I'll spend a week or two cursing it.
Like with Maya
fuckin' Maya and its hold alt to move camera scheme
winged shale
oh my god this update is abysmally slow
clever sky
And repeat function is middle mouse? Why Maya why??
dry fjord
I switch between camera control schemes constantly. I do wish I could configure everything the way I like it.
give us a fucking generic service for it
I prefer UE's navigation by far
winged shale
wow Shadowplay is dope as a rope
It looks like the overlay is being generated on the GPU
so cool
dry fjord
yeah it has almost no footprint
if you want to record the whole screen, it;s under privacy options
small files too
they upload to youtube fast and process fast
clever sky
Nice
Question
When moving up a slope in room scale
Would you prefer it to step you up in noticeable increments
or let you move up it smoothly?
winged shale
how I did it with a ground-based locomotion is by using an expo-out interp up to the step
winged shale
which worked really well at least for me and the people I tried it on
yeah so it moves quickly at first, a la raw-data
up to the step
then it evens out quickly as it gets near where you are going
that's for stairs
though
winged shale
yes
clever sky
Not teleportation/artificial locomotoin
clever sky
Hmmm
winged shale
raycast below
clever sky
Yeah
winged shale
and then interp your feet location to match it
clever sky
How'd you handle the player bending over?
winged shale
how are you launching your game btw for shadowplay to pick it up?
oh I use the raycast to find the ground, and I start it from the hmd location
then I use vector maths to figure out where to place the origin in order to make the feet there
so the length of the raycast isn't important, the target is
clever sky
Yeah
winged shale
so I've been doing "VR Preview" but when I do standalone game it doesn't seem to do anything with the HMD
dry fjord
if you MUST move the camera, move it smoothly and with one change in velocity - starting and stopping
winged shale
I've found that in some cases, the expo-out works really well to avoid sickness
but I agree otherwise
and that is because stepping up stairs was sickening if you just juddered up as soon as you're at the next one
and then going down was just a fall
but I would avoid stairs altogether if you can
and if you can't then it's time to test a bunch of shit and get creative
then narrow it down to a bunch of options, and test them on your guinea pig people who haven't really had the exposure to VR you have
clever sky
Yeah. Steps are a bitch in VR. I mean I love them myself
So you found snapping the height to the next step was an issue?
winged shale
yeah it's annoying
clever sky
But was it motion sickness inducing?
winged shale
like if you've ever played the old battle dome
when you try to go through a wall
it jerks you back
clever sky
What's it do now?
winged shale
idk I haven't played it in months
clever sky
Haha. ok 😛
clever sky
I haven't played it since near launch either.
clever sky
I've got a pretty ace boundary violation handling system
winged shale
because there's no histeresis
winged shale
you can just jangle on the edge of a step
dry fjord
I would like to try walking flat and getting upward motion though
clever sky
getting upward motion?
clever sky
Yeah... anyway, pretty happy with how my non-roomscale movement systems are handling ramps
dry fjord
sweet
winged shale
ugh this youtube from shadowplay is such a hassle, I probably should have done this a long time ago though
good I'm doing it now
now that it's all set up it won't ever be a hassle again!
will have a video up in a few min
winged shale
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rul5eB5yP6g @dry fjord
clever sky
Oh yeah.
Refactoring rules. Just cleared out a bunch of shit and made the function much more accurate
Also, tip: If you want the back vector of the HMD for whatever reason... get the right vector and rotate it 90 degrees
Because pitching forward past 90 degrees is fairly common, but rolling is not.
winged shale
why not use forward vector * -1.0
clever sky
Well depends what you need to do.
But if you're trying to find the back facing of the player
that's what I'm talking about.
winged shale
..?
clever sky
Because if you bend over and your head pitches past the absolute down, then the back vector (forward *-1) off the HMD flips around, even though the body hasn't.
clever sky
That's pretty cool the stuff you're doing.
winged shale
I just use the cameracomponent
clever sky
How's body presence?
Same diff. Camera is attached to HMD and will pitch along with the HMD
And actually, I'm using the camera component too 😛
winged shale
it's absurd, because I put the torso right below you so you always see which direction the room space is in
so it matches up pretty nicely
seeing your legs flailing about like that is very fun
and thank you very much
clever sky
See the direction the room space is in?
clever sky
How did you manage that?
winged shale
I just do it all in the abstracted bounds
you can actually walk around
and if you bump into something, the whole bounds moves too
clever sky
oh
winged shale
I've got an extremely complicated set of components
clever sky
Well the bounds is stuck to your room space.
clever sky
Your bounds move relative to your room space?
Your actor should be yourself and roomspace no?
winged shale
I mean yeah you can't physically go out of the roomscale tracking zone
clever sky
So if you move around the game world, your room space moves with you - the actor
winged shale
yes
clever sky
Yeah
That's how I've structured mine too.
Well... that's kinda how you have to structure it
winged shale
yeah you see chaperone when you get near the walls
but in the game no
your only sense of it is which direction your thorax/abdomen is pointed towards
I'll add feet pushes soon enough so you can 'crouch' and then push off walls and such
clever sky
Ah... yeah that's the part I'm having difficulty picturing.
winged shale
yeah it's super hard with the video
clever sky
So your abdomen... stays relative to the room?
not your head motion or IK driven head motion?
winged shale
relative to the place under your HMD
abdomen always points in direction of actual gravity
winged shale
sorry I did not communicate it effectively 😃
winged shale
hehe
what you didn't know is that in my brain I'm mostly concerning with the vestibulo-ocular response
because when I did this without a body it was WHACK
clever sky
Oh
Interesting.
I'm actually not that familiar with the VO response, other than it's a reflex mechanism that moves your eyes in response to vestibular input?
winged shale
it's a perceptual neural response that tries to match up what your eyes see and what your vestibular system feels
clever sky
It's not the mechanic that allows you to lock your eyes on a point in the world while you move your head and body around?
like when you're running and are staring at a hot chick?
clever sky
ah 😛
winged shale
I've found that you override it when you physically do things, such as grab a wall and push off it even if it's virtual
clever sky
Ah... that's a nice term for that.
clever sky
I've described that effect in a paper, but I just referred to it as a modification of vestibular expectation
i.e. you can affect vestibular expectation beyond just pure visual motion.
So yeah, self caused vection compensates for the vestibular expectation.
The mechanic I built around that was called 'grab turning'.
is called
winged shale
nice, my research in late undergrad was on how body perception affects comfort, perception and immersion in VR
clever sky
Literally, you can use the controller to grab and turn the world around you.
Super handy for... forward facing
forward facing VR.
winged shale
cool, I made a similar motion system called "globetrotting," where you hold down a button on the trackpad and a huge globe rises up under you. while the globe is up it locks your player character in the same spatial location, and all motion is reverse-transformed on the playspace
the globe under you moves to provide vestibular perceptual cues 1:1 as you move
then when you let go of the button, the globe recedes and you're on the ground again where you started, but instead of behind you, your whole playspace is in front of you
I have a video that I worked on for this, I'll upload it tomorrow
friended, I'll ping you when it's uploaded
my brain direly needs sleep now so it's time to go, good night!
winged shale
never heard of it, I did this back in February this year
then moved on to greener whatevers
clever sky
Yeah
pearl tangle
anybody played around with the 4.14 VR features yet?
clever sky
Well, will be cool to see it anyway. Interested to see how everyone accounting for the physiological sciences and applying it to VR