im building a little GIS visulization tool at the moment so going super simple interaction so will probably just have buttons and maybe a slider but I will do some user testing and see if people figure out to grab the slider or if radio style buttons are easier
#virtual-reality
pearl tangle
dry fjord
ooh that's nice
I like how now we have VR we're all reverting to 2D stuff
or is that a new aspect to UI?
in a 3D world 2D stuff is always UI
clever sky
Haha... a weird amalgamation of skeumorphisms.
We're more used to using menus with computers... so having computer analogies make more sense when using computer like items in VR.
Even though the hand icon itself is based on a real world metaphor (i.e. a button pushing hand).
Deep diving into the meta!
pearl tangle
hah yep. I wouldn't mind rigging it up and having the finger extend out when its near an object you can push but dunno if i will bother
definitely makes pushing the buttons on the control panel easier though
dry fjord
a virtual representation of a virtual hand that is representing a real hand, which according to Elon Musk is also a virtual representation of something else.
clever sky
Wouldn't it be funny if the people that created this simulation made our fingers in the image of their dicks?
pearl tangle
hah he's not the only 1 who believes that. there is a theory with working math that could prove we are all holograms existing in 2D space
wait until more people go do the steamvr training courses and start throwing the tracking sensors on everything
those hentai games will go crazy
clever sky
Real doll with fully body sensors.
I'd make a game where you take care of an invalid.
pearl tangle
oh yeah those guys are already working o nstuff with hololens
i remember seeing a documentary where they went to their factory
dry fjord
ew
mighty carbon
too bad neither Steam nor Oculus Store nor PS4 allows AO-rated games :/
(and I don't mean that entire game/should be made in the genre of pr0n)
junior prism
That's not too bad at all
I, along with most people, don't like to see that shit ๐
If people want to see it, they can go to their places to see it
๐
mighty carbon
other places don't have interactive VR ๐
and please don't speak for most people..
if most people didn't like that "shit", there would be no pr0n around
clever sky
Man. That's easy. Just make an AO and a non-AO version of your game.
If players want the AO version, they have to come to your site to get it.
No cut for Steam or Oculus!
mighty carbon
right, but how are you gonna publish AO-rated version? (DRM is one of the concerns)
clever sky
Same way that minecraft was published.
mighty carbon
Steam and Oculus Stores provide some DRM protection, also things like IAP and such. I am not sure if it's possible to use Rift/Vive without storefront and get all the services working
clever sky
Yeah, well, if you want to use their stores, have to abide by their rules D:
Otherwise there's always Patreon.
mighty carbon
(or if there is a 3rd party services that offer IAP, achievements, etc. and don't really care whether you use it in AO-rated or not products)
clever sky
Shits a gold mine of horny customers.
mighty carbon
I am looking at a bigger picture here
metaverse for adults (18+ yo)
if one doesn't care for AO-rated content, they simply don't participate in the encounters. Whoever wants it, they participate.
clever sky
Steam is an important storefront... but it's not the only storefront around. If your product is compelling enough, you can offer it through other means.
Check out everything that EA publishes.
Everything new*
But on some level, I quite agree with you.
It's just, I don't think Steam/Oculus are hard barriers towards a broader more inclusive metaverse that includes the opportunity to sexualize.
mighty carbon
it's what we have in real world ๐
Obviously we don't want to allow users to abuse each other in VR, but they should be able to do whatever they want to NPCs
clever sky
On the other, all these corporate actors defaulting to purient moral values further reinforces a societal norm where violence = ok, sex = bad.
clever sky
Well... it's a bit broader than the US. More like most of the world - some european countries.
mighty carbon
so much for puritanism and all that anti-sexuality bs
clever sky
But yeah... we can't look to Facebook or even Steam to bring about 'the metaverse' as we've all long envisioned it, where we're allowed to fulfill our personal fantasies to the extent that is possible
given a substantial reduction in harm that occurs in VR!
mighty carbon
I also wonder if Epic would block such product to be developed using UE4
clever sky
Not at all.
Otherwise they'd be blocking the myriad of porn games that people are already making with it.
mighty carbon
but those are not commercial products
clever sky
They might request that you not mention the use of their engine... but they'll happily collect the 5% from you!
Because their market isn't end users, its developers.
mighty carbon
I see
clever sky
And while blocking porn from your marketplace portal so as to not scare away purient customers is one thing...
restricting developer freedoms is another.
At least that's what I think without double checking it.
mighty carbon
right
metaverse wouldn't be about pr0n. it would be small (or large, however you play your role there) part of it.
prime escarp
hi all! anybody familiar enough with the sequencer to know much about the fading portion? I've got a scene where you are driven around by a sequencer, and it goes from scene to scene via fading, but my client wants their logo to display during one of these fades
I don't know if there's a way to prevent certain actors in the level from being faded
I WOULD just draw a UMG widget or something, but VR doesn't play nice with those, and we're forced to use some old Oculus DK2's...
pearl grove
Anyone else using the latest VRWorks branch? All of a sudden all our our metals that use reflections are black
pearl grove
hehe
sly chasm
He he he
I just ordered my rift earlier today
I got it for 500 bucks, still new in packaging
pearl grove
And we're live: http://store.steampowered.com/app/524380/
winged shale
celery man
sly chasm
on steam, will the htc vive games eventually be compatible with the rift after the motion controllers come out?
winged shale
the developer sets what VR headsets it "supports"
dry fjord
It won't be automatic
sly chasm
yeah
winged shale
in UE, Rift controllers work as motioncontrollers automatically
I suppose I am not sure about Unity
so it might not work automatically
or, more likely, the experiences that show Vive controllers will continue to show Vive controllers, and input will be abstracted through SteamVR interface
winged shale
thumbstick L X axis and Y axis and click becomes abstracted to SteamVR as a touchpad interface
sly chasm
ah
winged shale
so to the experiences, the SteamVR plugin just treats it like a Vive controller
sly chasm
ok, so it might be kind of translated
winged shale
yeah the Jun 17 2016 SteamVR beta says that it allows Oculusโ Touch controllers to be used with SteamVR and, apparently, pre-existing HTC Vive titles
sly chasm
oh, ok
yeah, because based on what I used, the rift controllers feel a lot more comfortable than what I could imagine the vive controllers would feel like
winged shale
they are, but you should definitely try out the new Vive prototype, it's another game changer
if you get a chance
sly chasm
where would you go about doing that?
winged shale
they were shown at Steam Dev Days, if you happen to know anyone at Valve, or some kind of steam insider that will get them early, you can talk to them
otherwise it's a waiting game
but there's plenty on the internet about them
sly chasm
ah
pearl tangle
@pearl grove looks nice. how are you handling locomotion for such a large space?
barren rose
sly chasm
ya mean pink-eye?
dry fjord
nope eye herpes. you get oozing sores on your eyeballs. you can also get it from playing anything through vorpX
I got maglock charging cables for my vive controllers
they seem good
pearl tangle
like the macbook things?
wicked oak
ue4 is great for vr
with the abstraction
it even works on psvr directly
a game for vive works directly on Touch
just with the wrong meshes
there is no built in oculus hand in the engine
@winged shale What are you using for the oculus hands?
i used the .fbx files they sent me, and built the anim blueprint myself
mighty carbon
wow, just read the reviews on Yore VR.. That's why I'd rather not publish on Steam if there was an alternative (besides Oculus Store).
clever sky
Also... Early access is a tough crowd.
I mean sure, it's early access right.
But people expect an 80% complete game in early access.
mighty carbon
you'd think people have common sense.. "There is a potential .... but I'll vote it down to kill it"
clever sky
If you launch a 20% game...
well people aren't going to know that.
So... I think a bit of it is Steam itself just not providing good tools to signal this.
Like maybe it should have a % completion bar that the developers can set.
That appears along with the rest of the title information.
mighty carbon
I mean, if someone thinks a game has potential, then why not to upvote to attract more people. If someone doesn't like it, why even vote at all.
clever sky
Because if your game is 80% complete and it's still full of glaring problems...
That's a bad signal.
mighty carbon
so, there is refund system
clever sky
True. But there's also a review system.
mighty carbon
let people try it, and if they don't like it - they can get a refund
clever sky
A lot of time people leave reviews in the hope that the devs will fix that shit.
Give them feedback kind of thing.
mighty carbon
and review system is bogus as some people are just entitled dicks who downvote games and "help" others not to even purchase it
clever sky
Of course they're less considering the ramifications it has on the dev's ability to sell on.
mighty carbon
and leaving reviews is fine, unless you have thumbs up and down system
clever sky
Basically, you gotta think about the marketplace from the consumer perspective, not the dev perspective - at least if you want to understand why it behaves the way it does.
mighty carbon
that's why Facebook has no "dislike" button
clever sky
Then act in a way to take advantage of that knowledge.
mighty carbon
I am a smart consumer. Not only I don't write bad reviews, I don't buy games left and right. I only buy what I really want to play and if possible, I try it first.
You'll never see me saying "omg, I thought the game is good, but it turned out to be shit"
I think holding consumer's hand went too far
people forgot about accountability on their part, but point fingers at devs all the time
clever sky
Well, you can blame the consumers, you can blame the tools, you can blame everything else as much as you want. But you only really have control over one thing.
wintry escarp
you also cant trust modern reviewers
ive seen reviews for pixelxl phone that are little more than an advert
mighty carbon
totally miss good ol' days without any reviews online and stupid gamers
back in the days PC gaming was considered "elite", as you had to be technically savvy to run PC games (and build PC in the first place)
clever sky
'elite'. heh. I played PC games when I was 6.
wintry escarp
I don't miss having to edit startup files to free enough ram to run a game
mighty carbon
When I was 16 we just barely got i386 in school.
wintry escarp
the uk used acorn computers
mighty carbon
not ZX Spectrum ?
wintry escarp
no, that was for home use, cheap
mighty carbon
(I remember playing on that, waiting for games to load from tape ๐ )
wintry escarp
acorn electron and bbc-b for schools
clever sky
Ah good old Acorn computers.
My school bought a bunch of Atari-ish acorn computers when I was in primary school.
And we mostly ended up playing games on them ๐
Surprisingly decent games too.
Like Heroes Quest!
wintry escarp
only games I remember for it were elite, frak, chuckie egg
and they were connected with something called econet, you could msg each other
clever sky
Ah Acorn.
Hahah... concentrated on selling their computer to schools.
While PCs were sold to businesses.
wintry escarp
they cost 2x as much as a c64, no-one wanted a bbc at home
clever sky
BBC?
wintry escarp
acorn bbc
clever sky
Ah yeah
wintry escarp
expensive and a few games, c64/zx had 1000s
mighty carbon
so, back to Steam and any other store with reviews - thumbs up and down is a shitty system.
clever sky
Ironically Acorn's genes are now the most dominant computing force in the world!
ARM processors all over mobile phones.
wintry escarp
yes, nice to see some of it survived, shame the uk government just allowed it to be sold
clever sky
Hah. I just learnt that ARM literally stands for Acorn RISC Machine.
winged shale
@wicked oak Actually I just have hands on a skeletal mesh IK interp, and forego having controller models entirely, but when they pop up (because you extended the controller too far out of the hand's reach, like unreasonably far) I just have it as a Vive controller. I'm not sure if there's a way to tell which headset you're using in UE4... which is awkward, if anyone knows let me know
wicked oak
there is
and its super easy
let me give you the snippet
becouse its so stupid you are going to laugh
winged shale
aw man >_<
thanks
I've got hand offsets that should be different for each controller too
winged shale
you're kidding
wicked oak
nope
winged shale
oh man
winged shale
morty ohhhh, riiiiick
wicked oak
then i thought, uhm, why dont i just cast it
much simpler and way, waaaay more robust
winged shale
yeah, saves on strcompare
sheeeeit
well this is good
I can make different hand offsets and finger rotations to match the controllers properly
wicked oak
remember HMDDevice is null if no headset
winged shale
yeah I always check ๐
wicked oak
the easiest way its to have your Hand actor
and just spawn the correct one
wich is what im doing
wicked oak
my Hand actor has lots of logic
but its there, on the Hand actor, abstracted
the top class has all the logic needed
the child classes (different per headset) are mostly graphic and imput stuff
for example in oculus, i have left and right, separate
winged shale
it's pretty necessary for my hands to be components because of some complex interactions I'm doing between hand and body
wicked oak
on vive i have 1 for both
uhm, they are still attached to some component
the motion controller component
winged shale
why didn't you just inherit from MotionControllerComponent?
cause that's what I might do
wicked oak
separation
i prefer to just parent to it
btw, dont make them components
that makes it WAY harder to replicate them for MP
winged shale
that would definitely help to encapsulate all the functionality, I've got a grabbing schema that algorithmically animates the fingers to grasp onto things like you would in reality, and only grabs if it can find purchase on that object. Also it's in space, so I have systems for grabbing not only objects but anything large in order to throw yourself around in zero-G, which I use some complex component reparenting to get it working properly
oh fack
you're right that makes perfect sense
gets out the big eraser
I had that annoying issue when I tried to make a MP thing once, where all motioncontrollers would be controlled by one person
mighty carbon
so, no way do all that in BP ?
wicked oak
yes
mighty carbon
do you just prefer C++ to BP, @wicked oak ?
wicked oak
yes
tawdry dragon
Hmm, can it be real that I'm seeing the Forward Renderer option in 4.13?
inside the Project Settings
vocal cobalt
What's the best way to have a big crowd and keep framerates down? I'm trying to have a basketball game on the Gear and when I add a bunch of people idling in their seats, the framerate goes to shit
mighty carbon
check out how they did crowd in Star Wars movie (the one with races on Tatooine). Apply that to game dev.
Google is banking https://www.cnet.com/news/google-pixel-xl-costs-278-to-make/
hard light
Do the Rocket League thing and don't actually doa crowd
mighty carbon
Btw, is GF 1050 Ti VR capable ?
vocal cobalt
The basketball game is a freethrow contest basically, and the crowd needs to be kind of engaging. @mighty carbon I'm looking into the podracing crowd too, but I need an engaging crowd @hard light . It's supposed to be in like a high school gym
I've been using a .gif, but it's not super convincing lol
mighty carbon
we are talking about Gear VR. No way you are gonna have actual crowd sim going there. I bet even for desktop VR it's an overkill.
vocal cobalt
lol true
I read on some forums about nba 2k16 that say it runs way smoother when you turn the crowd off...
tawdry dragon
You might be able to pull something off using a texture atlas and cards
but then again, opacity is insanely expensive on a mobile device
polar lotus
@wicked oak you can also do this:
http://prntscr.com/cyuc41
return TEnumAsByte<EVRHeadSet>(EnumPtr->GetValueByName(DeviceName)).GetValue();
```
To get directly an enum instead of an int326gb 1060 should be your entry card for VR
mighty carbon
aye, that figures
wintry escarp
seems its only 10-30% faster than my 780 on normal stuff, so its a useless upgrade for me for the cost
mighty carbon
you don't understand - they implemented VR features in hardware. Your 780 doesn't support those because at that time there was no VR on the horizon.
wintry escarp
if VR was all my pc was for it would be worthwhile
mighty carbon
so maybe it's just that much faster than old GPU in conventional games, I bet the whole boost is in VR features alone
if you really want to develop for VR, get appropriate hardware
wintry escarp
I am, I got a daydream supporting phone...just need nougat to drop for it
i better get to shop, shuts in 40 mins and its quite a walk
bbl
wicked oak
lol @polar lotus Isnt that a bit more complicated?
i mean, once you have the HMD pointer, casting is extremelly easy and works from version to version
a problem with the name, or yours, is what happens if the name changes
everythnig goes to shit, silently
with the cast, it fails at compile time
i think i should put that in the forums, as a blueprint node
mighty carbon
hmm... Kenneth Scott left Oculus to open his own VR studio (along with Epic and MS guys)
interesting development
I wonder if Fb imposes limits on creative freedom at Oculus
fresh laurel
@mighty carbon - Interesting. Got a link?
mighty carbon
granite jacinth
The big one is Ray Davis
fresh laurel
^
I cannot belive he left. But it is probobly for the best
Got to make games eventually
granite jacinth
Makes you wonder...
fresh laurel
^
fresh laurel
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
pallid echo
This is why even before this incident I have a container of sanitizing wipes and after every use by someone else my headset and controllers get cleaned.
junior prism
Or just don't use other people's VR headset
pallid echo
What about at conferences? @junior prism
junior prism
Do you WANT eye herpes? ๐
junior prism
Yeah, a face condom would be a smart way to do it
prime escarp
hey would anyone be willing to take a little time to help me with a rotation issue I'm having?
I'm at my wits end on this, and nothing I'm finding in google is proving helpful
rigid quiver
Well fudge. Friend of mine just got a vive and now has eye herpes. (It's slightly different than the std) Thought it was just her coming back from vacation but who knows
mighty carbon
how can one get new HMD and get eye herpes ?! Probably something happen during vacation ๐
(unless new HMD wasn't really new)
btw, sanitizing wipes have alcohol. Wouldn't it damage lenses ? (especially on Gear VR, since those aren't made of glass)
sullen stirrup
who has eye herpes and does VR
mighty carbon
irresponsible folks
wintry escarp
wtf sort of country has everyone running bout with herpes
mighty carbon
surprisingly eye herpes transmission wasn't reported with people trying glasses and shades. What's the deal with VR HMDs ? Is it like with no one reporting iPhone catching fire, but spamming press with Note 7 catching fire ? (anti-VR SJW)
US probably
dry fjord
hmm it's not in 3d
wicked oak
SteamVR new beta has Async Reprojection
will it hold a candle to oculus stuffs? will it not? Ill perform tests on it
junior prism
Please do and report back
wicked oak
after all, im trying to get hierarchical LOD with instaLOD doing something so i can use the Forward renderer
but for that, i have to halve drawcalls
dry fjord
success
it would be amazing if it works well
I credit this development to all of my whining about it
junior prism
Why not use Simplygon?
dry fjord
basically ALL my shit comes in at just under 90fps
so annoying
simplygon ain't cheap brother
junior prism
Is now brother
dry fjord
oh brother?
junior prism
It's free at point of use now brother
wicked oak
becouse ive paid for instalod, and im not going to pay again with that 2%
junior prism
wicked oak
this stuff is commercial
dry fjord
well rip my yellow singlet
junior prism
How is InstaLOD?
wicked oak
good enough
dry fjord
literally today
wicked oak
but they have added DRM wich i very seriously dislike
junior prism
@dry fjord Think how I feel. It's on the MP and I didn't even know about it
dry fjord
haha
junior prism
What kinda DRM @wicked oak ?
dry fjord
that's ok you're only a few hours short on it
yeah I was expecting DRM that reports home somehow
or is scannable
junior prism
Wow
dry fjord
encrypt your pak files
junior prism
fuck that
dry fjord
oh the plugin is?
wicked oak
works offline, but has to be activated
dry fjord
or the output?
wicked oak
with your buy key
dry fjord
oh sorry
junior prism
Simplygon is the usual shit
dry fjord
fair enough
wicked oak
oh, sympligon is worse
junior prism
I can live 2% of gross
wicked oak
ill probably review it, to see if its worth the hassle
after all, i do have instalod and im open to compare it
mighty carbon
2% from 25k quarterly
junior prism
Wait, huh @mighty carbon ?
mighty carbon
if you make less than 25k per quarter, you pay nothing
mighty carbon
if you make 25k and up, then you pay 2%
dry fjord
and I have a simplygon license. thank you, reality simulation.
mighty carbon
junior prism
Hell yeah, I can get down with that shit
mighty carbon
"2% royalty after first $25K per quarter revenue "
dry fjord
I think they're all hoping for that next minecraft that makes a billy
2% of a billy is sweet
wicked oak
at least its the ue4 plugin
becouse before, to get the ue4 plugin you need to get full license
wich costs more than the damn engine
and thats for real
mighty carbon
right, but InstaLOD is one-time fee
wicked oak
we talking 5 figures of $
sympligon is suposed to be "better"
but, again
i have to compare
instalod is fine
for what it costs
junior prism
Simplygon is industry standard but usually has industry pricing
this 2% 25k is fucking awesome
mighty carbon
FBX is standard... Simplygon is just another app
Blender does decent job decimating meshes
junior prism
I'm not sure I agree with that ๐
mighty carbon
InstaLOD does, so far, really good job on static meshes (haven't tried skeletal yet)
I guess it doesn't hurt to have a choice
pallid echo
Off Topic: This new SteamVR Beta update is amazing. Best feature ever is that I can minimize the SteamVR window! ๐
wicked oak
oh hell yes
blender decimating good?
what the hell are you smoking XD
its literally the simplest algorithm you can use, and its extremelly bad
compared to some more state of the art algorithms like the one in zbrush, or sympligon, or epic games 4.14 one, or instalod
mighty carbon
Cool
clever sky
That Simplygon stuff... is good info to have.
But gotta be honest from a naieve dev perspective, shit feels like another tax upon 'high end graphics'.
On top of the costs of creating the content in the first place!
On the other hand, if you want half way decent graphics and performance, shit yeah.
In a few years, with ASW on all sides, foveated rendering (which might also allow you to swap LOD meshes when they're outside your fovea), the performance of VR will probably exceed desktop applications for the same content.
clever sky
And this is why I don't do MP:
That and my internet connection sucks and I'm bitterly jealous of everyone able to get a decent multiplayer gaming experience going in VR.
Fuckin' Australia.
Beaches are the best, internet is better than North Korean.
Seriously though, if any of you are working on MP interaction, have a read through that article.
If you wanna maximize the VR ecosystem, gotta account for trolls!
dry fjord
the concept of harassment in VR is going to get weird fast
so someone made a slightly unseemly gesture towards you in MP
how is it any different from what the enemies do?
does intent somehow make it intolerably worse? in which case how is it any different from trolling anywhere else?
and how does the reaction need to be any different?
what about adverserial multiplayer?
should sore losers be catered to?
if someone beats me down in a melee combat game and it makes me feel harassed, should I be able to file a report?
because that's what xbox live tried
that led to overwatch players who couldn't play the game just because people were opting not to play against them because they were skilled
mighty carbon
Well, depends on your app
pearl tangle
i played some of rec room last night, was an interesting multiplayer experience
since everybody has the mic working and its competetive stuff but the games themselves aren't very serious so its a decent laugh
mighty carbon
I'd say in some cases better make sure only filtered people can get into your personal space. Others shouldn't be able too, and if head reaches into your bubble, model gets disabled.
In games with weapons I'd say learn how to handle your weapon and defend yourself :)
clever sky
@dry fjord The difference is mainly repetition and the feeling of powerlessness and injustice at the situation.
Few people can honestly feel that getting beaten down at a multiplayer game is an injustice, even if a few more might claim that it is.
But been harassed, whatever the form may be (verbally, pseudo physically, targeted competitive play, etc) will cause people to feel hard done by more readily and significantly.
Also, you have a point - shit's a tough problem with a lot of fuzzy grey borders.
But that hardly translates to meaning that it's not a problem that needs addressing, or can't be addressed.
dry fjord
I would suggest that people are responsible for their own wellbeing in multiplayer situations, that they are not powerless
everyone has equal opportunity to be a dick
clever sky
Sure. But give them more tools and they have the capacity to be even more responsible for their wellbeing.
dry fjord
to offer a comparison, SJWs take offence at ordinary interactions that we take for granted, occasionally as extreme as saying hello to someone
the person in the article is at least being a little histrionic, maybe if only for the sake of the article
but that does make you wonder why we take our cues from media
isn't it OK to stop and think on our own behalves?
let's take a blocking system and a game like rec room
some jerk comes in and acts like a fuckwit, everyone blocks him or her, he or she leaves having nobody left to victimise
no problem, right?
now what if the person being blocked is actually the victim and the jerk is just manipulating people?
everything has the potential for abuse
the answer is almost always moderation
otherwise why would it be so ubiquitous
the moderators determine the tone of the community
clever sky
If you're talking about personal moderation, leaving it up to individuals to control themselves is... too naieve a trust exercise.
If you're talking about using people to moderate others...
Expensive, and or build community tools to allow community members to do so.
dry fjord
no I meant community moderation
clever sky
The latter is a good approach, but still, is an additional expense on development.
dry fjord
I just described how personal moderation can be used as a tool to victimise people as well
it's not so much expensive as time-consuming
dry fjord
not if they're paid and have a standard to adhere to
let's take a large social game, say.. world of warcraft
clever sky
Who's going to implement and update the code?
dry fjord
they have game masters
you do, if you want to provide the widest possible adoption
I bet there's money in a moderation marketplace asset
dry fjord
see our talks are good
clever sky
Haha.
dry fjord
and it's a simple data plugin too
clever sky
Well, so long as its sufficiently robust.
dry fjord
a human is better than any system. you just have to provide the right info
and a reasonable workflow
clever sky
Well, kinda.
dry fjord
it'd effectively be a web microservice with some UI on it for handling tickets
clever sky
But nah, I still prefer empowering individuals
No system is perfect - and the ones that involve humans in the chain are frequently the most fragile!
Of course, empowering individuals doesn't remove humans from that chain!
But there is less of them!
dry fjord
I'd say that community experiences require good and bad, along a scale. people are fairly quick to rate an experience as worse or better than what it was and weight the system wrongly
in reality if they had no tools a lot of the time they might just deal with it
clever sky
Side note:
Early Access needs to give developers a slider to indicate game completion percentage.
dry fjord
it does
instead of letting them be creative with logic
and the slider should turn red if it ever goes backwards
or allow them to extend it with a new colour for new features
clever sky
I think it'd help substantially in communicating what state the game is been offered in.
dry fjord
let's sell that too
clever sky
How?
dry fjord
patent it
dry fjord
haha yeah
just say you're being ethical
all of a sudden ๐
can't undo what was done, etc
clever sky
Unfortunately this conversation is public, and now if either of us tries to pull this, there'll be written proof against us!
hahaha ๐
dry fjord
only if they find it
patent trolls are notorious for replacing work with legal threats
it's become a costly business model anyway
what with google and apple and samsung proactively suing them
clever sky
True that.
clever sky
For what?
dry fjord
so I actually understand all of the facets of UE multiplayer and how people use it
most games try to end up on steam, for example
there must be some extra tools there to use for moderation, steam accounts, etc
clever sky
Oh you mean go through a multiplayer tutorial?
clever sky
Hehe ๐
dry fjord
fuck making tutorials
that's even less rewarding than writing documentation, something else I don't do
clever sky
... I write documentation ๐
ok, I don't write it, I document designs.
Because that's the reality of been a designer... you spend a bit of time conceptualizing and most of your time documenting it so it can be implemented.
dry fjord
that makes sense
writing a spec is OK
writing an understanding of the entire project is fuckoffland
clever sky
Haha... yeah I can see that.
pearl tangle
hah the worst I have had to do is a 600 page development document
actually 640 pages i think it came out to
clever sky
600 pages? That'll go on the 'let's pretend I read that' pile.
pearl tangle
moral of the story, don't build enterprise internet banking platforms hah
clever sky
Not unless you're paid bank to do it! ๐
pearl tangle
hah well i don't think anybody would do that as a hobby. I was running a team building it for a huge bank and they are still stuck on old school waterfall approach methodology so you spend as much time writing how you are going to build something as you do actually building it
clever sky
Apple finally running out of steam.
But they've got enough steam for the next century.
dry fjord
I was part of a process that involved hundreds of people developing something. the documentation there would have easily been a few thousand pages
paywall for a newspaper
and it was nonsense
in the end we built what we knew we needed
business wants something? okay we'll take that into account but we're not writing code by numbers
we hired KPMG to write the documentation and project manage it after we'd been through a handful of other companies
they had a massive party when it was "done" and they didn't invite us, because they made like ten million on it
and by "done" I mean it never launched
we didn't have a party
and virtually nothing they did amounted to anything
they fucking knew it too
dry fjord
it was the bulk of the development cost
we made the same mistake again with our mobile app
that cost us 3 million and nobody uses it
clever sky
Ouch.
dry fjord
I built the API for it and that was fine, got it done quickly. tried to get the paper to actually hire a mobile developer to do the app side ofi t.. nope.
farmed it out to someone who quoted $500k to do the whole thing
a year later still no app and now the bill was 3 million
no bugs were getting fixed
it was crippled
they paid no attention to how to use the API
it was generating 60mb queries on load
even on mobile data
clever sky
...
clever sky
What the hell is it doing
dry fjord
on the last day I was still trying to get them to do ANY caching at all
not caching
it was meant to get large amounts of data only on wifi and stream new stuff otherwise
clever sky
I see.
dry fjord
so you could have the day's news on the train or whatever without using any cellular data
clever sky
Mobile apps for websites. Ha.
clever sky
And now it's a deprecated idea.
clever sky
Like fuck reddit, stop using the reddit app that I don't fucking want to use man!
dry fjord
I was happy to have work to do and the mobile API was just part of a bigger API redesign that we needed to do
haha
I'm OK with the reddit app
it provides functionality that webpages can't
clever sky
Like what? I haven't bothered using it because I need to sign in again.
And I'm lazy to sign in on mobile D:
dry fjord
haha
it's just generally better than a webpage
I like that the UI changes immediately even if it has to load more data after that
clever sky
Oh well. Too late. I deleted it just before you said it's ok.
clever sky
On a different note. Have you seen this stuff?
Magnets that can change behaviour
Seems like it'd benefit VR somehow.
Rotate to clip, rotate to unclip. Genius.
dry fjord
that is cool. how do they work?
clever sky
They have specially designed fields that are 3D printed
dry fjord
I already use rare earth magnets to dock my controllers to their charging location or to the gun controller
nice
clever sky
And different angles and rotations causes them to behave differently relative to each other (i.e. attraction/repulsion)
winged shale
so I've got this annoying animation blueprint lag between my motioncontroller positions and the IK solver for putting the hands of my character skeleton where the motioncontrollers are, seems like it's updating quite late, maybe 1-2 frames late
anyone know what's up with that? I'm passing along the location + rotation of each hand in a character blueprint on Tick
the arms kind of lag behind
clever sky
Bleh. SteamVR Beta with Async reprojection also has crappy bug in Unreal
fresh laurel
๐ฆ
clever sky
keeps crying about SteamVR compositor something something every tick
even when the project isn't running.
dry fjord
how do we get the new version of steamvr?
I'm subscribed to steam beta releases
ah got it
dry fjord
even after a full reinstall all I get is this
https://i.imgur.com/aM6NyIz.png
fresh laurel
๐ฆ
fresh laurel
Yep
clever sky
In MagicLeap news today
Turns out the company is run like a clusterfuck
โLike Jobs, R(ony Arbovitz, Magic Leap CEO) has a reality distortion field. Unlike Jobs, Rโs is more like a bad high, just leaves you feeling tired with a vague headache in the morning and is not productive.โ
wicked oak
every company is a clusterfuck of some kind
the point is that its a manageable clusterfuck that gets things done, or not
have you heard about how bad Steve Jobs was with his employees?
pearl tangle
well with $1.4billion to spend on getting shit done you should hope they aren't just wasting it
dry fjord
just having the editor open, my log is full of this a million times every second: LogHMD: Warning: SteamVR Compositor had an error on present (108)
eventually I assume it'll run out of memory and crash
pearl tangle
you running hdmi or dp cable?
pearl tangle
no the vive is insanely finicky. some machines it seems to like dp, some hdmi
its worth trying both out and seeing what happens
also what gpu are you running?
clever sky
@dry fjord Yeah, I was getting that. Downgraded back to non-beta
and it stopped.
So, basically I'll have to live without reprojection for now.
Not that reprojection seemed to be helping my project anyway.
dry fjord
980ti here
clever sky
Same
dry fjord
fuck that I'm keeping reprojection. damn the log.
clever sky
Haha.
I need my log!
Need that shit to debug issues. Can't have it filling up with perma spam
dry fjord
the log badly needs a filter
clever sky
Yeah
wicked oak
ill use 4.13Nvidia version
lets see how far i can take the multires and lens matched shading
pearl tangle
have they put their vr sli onto their builds yet?
dry fjord
the new reprojection is shit
in steamvr
I don't think it's a steamvr specific problem though
reprojection in general is shit
wicked oak
oculus atw is fairly legit
it actually does positional
but only calculates positional from the camera, no objects
so it can artifact quite fast
oculus ASW(spacewarp) invents new frames
from the old ones, stimating where its going, and then also doing rotation and position timewarp
mighty carbon
so, how is Valve's answer to ASW/ATW?
junior prism
Heck yeah, OSVR are sending me a devkit because they loved the Twitch stream ๐
@dry fjord Apparently us failing to get the arms work was entertaining
Nah, they really dug the Twitch chat in-game thing
Everyone seems to be blown away by that
winged shale
wubba lubba dub dub!
mighty carbon
unbelievable how that virtual groping thing is getting out of control on the Net
people already proposing real life punishment for whatever you do in VR
clever sky
The idiot spectrum exists on both sides.
mighty carbon
if they do this, it will essentially ruin VR
(to some extent, not completely of course)
junior prism
Yeah people were jumping down my throat about that fucking article I commented on
clever sky
Which one? The lady saying that she got sexually assaulted in VR?
junior prism
Yup
rigid quiver
Yea. I think the dev has the right idea though http://uploadvr.com/dealing-with-harassment-in-vr/
clever sky
Dev response was great.
And while I think she was been inflammatory and hyperbolic... this isn't the first time the issue of sexual harassment has been brought up in Social VR.
So I think this is the kind of community awareness needed now at an early stage on how to think about design issues related to these things.
mighty carbon
why no one comes out saying they got sexually assaulted by watching pr0n ?
it certainly can inflict emotional trauma all over again in victims who were assaulted in the past in real life
the answer is they don't watch pr0n
clever sky
... Because watching porn is largely a passive activity where you have full control over content and consumption.
mighty carbon
they made a choice not to
clever sky
And is basically nothing like been harassed sexually in VR?
mighty carbon
same should go for VR, if there was an appropriate warning before session that there is no protection against invading privacy of whatever the wording should be
clever sky
Well, single player VR is rather different from multiplayer. The lines of reality blur with VR.
mighty carbon
sure it's passive, but it can cause flashbacks in victims
clever sky
That's the shit we're saying ourselves to justify this tech.
mighty carbon
There is no physical contact in VR, so it's all emotional really.
clever sky
So the issue is you don't think people can cause harm that's not physical?
mighty carbon
you aren't reading what I am posting
I am saying there are a lot of things besides VR that can cause emotional trauma
clever sky
Well, I'm asking for clarification.
mighty carbon
yet VR is becoming a scapegoat
clever sky
Sure. And where other people are involved, we try to moderate the emotional harm that others can cause.
mighty carbon
and yes, I want for VR to remain unregulated, wild
clever sky
Why is VR monolithic?
You can go to spaces on the internet that are heavily moderated.
mighty carbon
people with issues (whatever the sounrce of the issue is) should avoid using VR if they feel that they will get attacked and whatnot
clever sky
You can also go to places on the internet that are essentially unmoderated.
mighty carbon
or rather, VR apps that aren't regulated
clever sky
What shouldn't be happening though is that through the unintentional oversight of developers, they allow things to happen between users that they wouldn't approve of themselves.
Like lets leave out sexual harassment and talk about cheating.
mighty carbon
yes, but I am referring to people now asking if real life laws should govern VR
clever sky
If you design a tight experience, ideally you'd want players to interact fairly.
To the extent that's sensible - i.e. you can't use VR to spread child pornography or other forms of illicit materials anymore than you can on the internet.
mighty carbon
meaning if I make a VR app where people can do whatever they want to each other, I'd get into legal trouble, with most likely criminal charges
sure
I am referring to sex/violence
clever sky
That's ridiculous, and the people that'd suggest that are also ridiculous.
Use existing precedence.
Until proven less effective because of a new medium.
Proven been the key word here.
Going back to what you were saying - your desire might be for a wild west experience... but if that ends up encouraging behaviour and outcomes you don't forsee and view undesirable - then you're basically going to have to reassess the situation. Do you really want your app to be overpopulated by aggressive jerks that drive everyone else away?
If not, then careful consideration of community management is required - even if that doesn't necessarily result in obvious community moderation tools.
mighty carbon
well, given that people can wipe those jerks out, why not ?
maybe put a real person "sheriff" who is unkillable and who cleans up play areas from those kind of people
I am not advocating for every VR app/game to be that way
clever sky
Real people moderation is expensive.
At least if you're paying them.
And sometimes (frequently) insufficient.
mighty carbon
but there should be such VR world where there aren't too many restrictions and everyone has equal opportunity to deal with the world and its inhabitants
junior prism
I don't get it. It's literally a screen you put to your face, it's no different to a games console or a PC. Why does it need special laws?
mighty carbon
it doesn't, that's what I am saying
junior prism
It's just because we're in this fucking crazy world where you can't do anything without someone finding issue with it
It's the whole, kids online are going to be snatched by pedophiles thing, all over again
clever sky
@junior prism It doesn't. At least not for a long while yet. I can imagine a lot of existing precedence will be up ended with sufficiently advanced VR - like The Matrix.
junior prism
But this time "It's vunerable women being targeted by men"
clever sky
And even incrementally so before then.
junior prism
which, by the way, is not the only situation that could happen
mighty carbon
unless there is a danger of person get harmed in real-world, there should be no limitations imposed on VR
junior prism
Pretty sure the same thing happened before with 3D graphics to be fair
clever sky
Anyway... development community should take the issue seriously before numbnuts get laws involved. That's the takeaway here.
junior prism
but back then people weren't obsessed with advertismenet revenue
with making this shit worse than it is
mighty carbon
sure, but that's the issue because cyberbullies literally affect people's lives in real world
clever sky
So, how is VR exempt from the reach of cyberbullies?
junior prism
The takeaway here is we're in a fucking stupid PC world with fucking idiots making humdrum about nothing for attention and advertisement money.
clever sky
Like... a cyberbully doesn't need to actually know a person to cause significant grief to them.
mighty carbon
how on Earth do you see that happening in VR, if they don't know who you are, besides maybe your gender (and that would only be possible by judging avatar by voice output)
junior prism
Yes, sexual expoitation should not happen anywhere. But most of these people are saying these VR sexual experiences are equal or worse to the real thing
Like how fucking retarded can you be
clever sky
@junior prism Who is 'most of these people'?
junior prism
These write-ups I've been reading
clever sky
You've been reading some terrible opinions.
junior prism
Yes, I have
and I've also got the shit for pointing out how fucking retarded they are
because we're in this insane PC world
Like I'm all for PC
but this a whole new level of PC
like some proper V for Vendetta-style shit
clever sky
Depends on the tact you take. It's important to acknowledge that VR is indeed a more immersive medium
and that social interactions in VR are more immersive.
But that there's still a clear difference between VR and reality
in terms of degree of harm and degree of empowerment.
mighty carbon
@clever sky cyberbully doesn't need to know you, but other people do know you. So if they start using your Fb page to post shit, or use your youtube vids, then you get humiliated due to the fact that everyone who knows you see all that. VR is different because no one will know who you really are (at least in the metaverse I envision)
keep your VR life separate from your real life
junior prism
But it's fuckin' VR, it's not a new reality, it's just a fuckin' screen on your damn face
clever sky
@mighty carbon You need to stop thinking about some idealized version of VR and think about how its been used now. Even setting aside cyberbullying from people knowing you - you can get cyberbullied by consistent harassment in the digital spaces you frequent.
junior prism
You don't need an alternative identity to it, just like you don't need one game to game
junior prism
I don't even
Then you close the game down and join a different lobby, or play something else
They'd have to know your real name to get your Facebook ID
clever sky
Should you have to though?
mighty carbon
again, I not talking with VR in general
clever sky
Like why should I have to move away from what I'm doing because some jerk is been a jerk?
mighty carbon
I am talking about VR apps specifically designed for that purpose, a new world where you are not who you are in real-life.
junior prism
Then you're getting into the realm of "I was here first, it's not fair. He should leave"
Like Ready Player One? Yeah, not going to happen
clever sky
Well no. This is a digital space. We have more options then crying foul.
junior prism
It's too segregated already for something like that to work on a large scale
clever sky
The QuiVR guys dealt with the situation admirably.
Problem found, solution provided.
@mighty carbon Designing a wild west experience is fine.
Just don't be surprised when natural social dynamics causes an overrepresentation of some types of people over others.
If that's what you've intended for your experience, then mission successful.
If it's not - then you simply have to reconsider the design of the experience.
mighty carbon
all true, except I wouldn't want to be regulated by laws
clever sky
Well, neither would I. But you know if poor behaviour runs rampant for too long, it's going to draw the ire of the broader public.
And thus the reach of governments.
Irrespective of what you or I want.
mighty carbon
alternatively, if it grows into a massive enterprise, I'd just move it away into a country where people can travel to get that experience, and there are no laws against such VR ๐
clever sky
And given that VR is a more immersive place - for good or bad - people are going to be more sensitive to experiences on it - for good or bad.
Which means that bad experiences in VR would draw the attention and ire of public faster than a similar experience in a non-VR application.
mighty carbon
btw, just remembered that big backlash when Blizzard had that character drawn from the back and SJWs came out to cry about butt, and Blizzard caved in. Ridiculous.
clever sky
I don't know if this is caving: http://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/5178e5267fe2a5e93dfc7145f04af1e2-650-80.jpg
That's just a different butt pose.
Anyway... I try not to engage in the PC battle lines too much. Shit's tiring as hell.
You've got numb nuts on both sides, and been stuck in the middle feels bad.
mighty carbon
it wasn't like that in 90s... What happened to the gaming / tech world?! ๐ฆ
clever sky
Social networks makes it easy to transmit dissatisfaction.
And large social networks is largely a post 2000 phenomenon
And people love to click on negative shit.
'triggered' is the term that's overused, but applies to this situation.
Also, we got more female gamers. This is a good thing - larger market for gaming. But you can hardly be surprised that they'd fight for their interests to be represented as well.
We've spent the last 20 years as a species honing the click bait centers of our brain.
People know subconciously very well how to push each others buttons to draw maximum attention.
So... no surprise their hyperbole has drawn your attention and made a bunch of people talk about that shit.
And then it'll rinse and repeat over some other issue the next day, and the next day after that.
mighty carbon
I see
clever sky
Dammit. Spent the last hour arguing about stupid stuff. Microsoft has a press conference going right now. They announced a VR headset
mighty carbon
well, female gamers plead to female gamedevs to make games they want, not to shut down games other people want
yeah, saw that on reddit
bunch of bs
$300 HMD with positional tracking
how is that possible, if even inferior PSVR costs $400
clever sky
inside out positional tracking.
How's that possible? Compromise compromise compromise!
But... if they did pull it off... all the better.
mighty carbon
meh, ruining VR is what they are doing
clever sky
Hey man... if SteamVR gets an extra million+ users over the next year because of this stuff, I'll be pretty hyped.
I don't have to buy that headset to benefit from its existence.
And I know I like VR enough to shell for the high end stuff.
mighty carbon
except that other folks who buy cheaper solutions and will find them horrible will assume that's what VR is
clever sky
Well depends on how the community talks about this stuff.
And how MS pushes the marketing.
mighty carbon
hah, backstabbers http://uploadvr.com/microsoft-fires-shots-rift-vive-calls-less-immersive-partner-headsets/
clever sky
Like if journos are trumpeting it as on par with Rift/Vive when it's not, we'll be in trouble.
But I think more likely, they'll gleefully call out MS for overreaching
wicked oak
the main point of those with inside out tracking, is that you dont need to setup cameras and stuff
just plug it, and run it
no cameras/lighthouse around
clever sky
Yeah, it's a big improvement.
in user friendliness.
Might get one even if it's not as good as Rift/Vive
just so I can have an on road VR setup
mighty carbon
what about hand tracking, latency ?
winged shale
I've had some time with the hololens, it's really cool
but it's definitely there yet
it has arbitrary room tracking, where it can figure out what part of its map of the world you're in based on the geometry of the room
and it does a damn fine job with the tracking, but sometimes it bugs out, and stuff. You can also put stuff in that arbitrary space and it will be there when you come back from a different room entirely
hard light
I don't see how it does proper tracking
it looks more like GearVR level of tracking (i.e, none)
mighty carbon
I highly doubt that Hololens can achieve the same tracking fidelity as Rift/Vive, not to mention graphics fidelity
hard light
it doesn't, it's not even close
hand tracking / gestures seems okay
but Leap Motion Orion seems to be much better
my favourite thing about Hololens is that it doesn't work if you leave the window open xD
(it's tracking setup uses the UV range, so sunlight interferes with it)
mighty carbon
ha
clever sky
We should make VR pokemon with my locomotion system.
wicked oak
we are talking about Hololens
clever sky
Fuckin' millionaires man.
wicked oak
AR pokemon
clever sky
... But that's AR.
wicked oak
thats the cool thing
clever sky
Fuck it. I'll do VR pokemon myself!
VR Pocket Monsters!
I wonder if they've trademarked pocket monsters.
wicked oak
yes they have
clever sky
Ok ok. VR Catchamon!
wicked oak
lets call it digital monsters
clever sky
Well... I mean if digimons got away with sticking mon on the end of their name, then I can too! (?)
mighty carbon
heard an opinion that these HMDs from MS, even if they do worse (but not nauseating) VR than Rift/Vive would bring VR to masses much sooner.
granite jacinth
I agree
$300 HMDs...
With some of the tech from Hololens
Mainly the tracking it looks like
I think this is good for a variety of reasons though. More competition is always good, and will allow for innovations from all the major players.
I don't know if I like seeing MSFT hand it over to various hardware makers instead of just choosing one player
That MAY cause a lot of fragmentation and confusion unless there are some strict guidelines that all the manufacturers have to follow
But, until specs and more details surface (probably in the next few weeks), we can only speculate.
junior prism
To be fair, isn't the OS VR around that price range?
granite jacinth
@junior prism OSVR2 should be $400
Last I remember
Interestingly, I figured it would take off, especially since Razer was one of the major players with that
junior prism
I dunno about prices, I just know they're sending me one for free
granite jacinth
And according to most who have used it, it is a better experience thatn Rift
than*
junior prism
I think SteamVR kinda trumped them in the open source plans
granite jacinth
How'd youget one for free?! what
junior prism
So all they've got going for them is price and upgradabilitiy
@granite jacinth They liked my stream and the twitch stuff and are fast tracking me one ๐
granite jacinth
Well, SteamVR, is it really opensourced though?
Aren't just the current gen LHs open?
The HMD isn't
junior prism
It's renamed on the Steam dev store is OpenVR
wicked oak
osvr has no chance at all at the moment
granite jacinth
Hmm, really?
wicked oak
its much worse than Vive or Oculus
wicked oak
its almost like those chinese headsets
junior prism
Login to partner.steamgames and go to the VR section
granite jacinth
Hmmm, I don't know.
wicked oak
well, pretty sure it is
junior prism
it is now called OpenVR
granite jacinth
That doesn't sound right.
winged shale
RIP my notifications
winged shale
blubbloop
granite jacinth
I'll check it out later, on a break in class
void parrot
Isn't the osvr created by Valve?
junior prism
No
OSVR = Razer and some random other company
OpenVR = Valve
It gets confusing and will continue to be confusing
wicked oak
basically OSVR is at "chinese ripoff" state right now
i know a couple guys who have one
one of them never got it to work
the other one, barely
and when it worked it was DK1 quality
pallid echo
I have three OSVRs, the HDK 1.3, 1.4 and 2.0.
1.3 I could get working no problem. 1.4 and 2.0 haven't had any luck.
pallid echo
However I've been using Epic's built in plugin for the 1.4 and 2.0 and the plugin is always the problem with the OSVR.
Haven't had much time to compile the plugin source myself and fix everything for them again. lol
junior prism
It'll be worth it when I get one ๐
Then we both can have working OSVR ๐
I'll feed you some peanuts as payment ๐
pallid echo
Woot, peanuts!
winged shale
right now, to me it doesn't make sense, even in the best case, who wants to open a web page, and have to drag on your HMD to see some extra content or a way to replicate the data already shown on screen?
what would be nice is for someone to make a VR browser
that takes existing HTML etc. and displays it in a way that makes sense in 3-space
allows all kinds of interactions with it that emulate mouse clicks, like look-clicking or motioncontroller poking
and THEN webVR would be good
because you'd already have the damn thing on
call it VRowser
void parrot
I'd pay for that
winged shale
HTML6 could even have some new conditional data stream types, like if VR then show 360 image as background behind web display, something REALLY low overhead like that for web devs
pallid echo
winged shale
neat
granite jacinth
been talking about it ๐
pallid echo
@granite jacinth Oh, lol. I didn't see any posts about it otherwise I wouldn't have posted my own link.
But I didn't look at all the past messages so I'm sure I missed one or multiple.
granite jacinth
/shrug
pallid echo
I thought the shrug command worked?
granite jacinth
Just in case you dont get responses
You know why
No idea why it doesn't. Maybe because I am on mobile.
pallid echo
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
granite jacinth
Mobile is bugged quite a bit anyway
pallid echo
Yeah, works for me. Mobile be the reason, same idea for Slack I do believe.
pallid echo
Oh, just found all of the past messages about MSFT. lmao
granite jacinth
The more I think about it
Most of the hardware guys are already working in their own VR HMD
On*
So, I am curious why MSFT didnt just use their own hardware guys for this
pallid echo
I'm assuming due to the employee layoffs.
Everyone is dedicated to Hololens or other AR projects and VR could be pawned off to someone else.
Not enough employees means they have to take from the Hololens/AR team which means less production gets done on Hololens/AR then in the end they have two products that are half assed or take to long to get out.
A guess anyways.
granite jacinth
Which is why I mentioned why hardware guys doing their own HMDs
granite jacinth
Maybe so they have mainstream and ethusiasts brands?