it wouldn't be hard to model the counterforce that these hinges apply in VR actually, they only engage once they hit a certain angle
#virtual-reality
distant nest
clever sky
Yeah.
Still, it's attention to detail!
Some devs are like... yeah door flips on, door flips off.
distant nest
yeah
For true attention to detail, you'd need a front facing fan to blow air on the player as they open the door, simulating the displacement of air that the door creates
clever sky
Or at least have subtle air pressure sound effects.
distant nest
a subtle woosh
clever sky
Along with the sound of the hinges and handles operating.
Need to reproduce as much of the sensory effects as is possible!
distant nest
I think only old hinges would be audible
Did you guys see the video of the pro snooker player in VR?
clever sky
PRESENCE!
sly chasm
just poor some water on them and then leave them outside for like a day or two
distant nest
clever sky
So does anyone set their basestations to sleep when the Vive isn't running?
or SteamVR
dry fjord
nope
the HMD goes to sleep on its own
same for the base stations
sometimes I quit steamvr
if steam vr stops working while UE is open UE eats it so I do tend to turn it off when I'm not doing VR, if I remember
also I said I was going home 30 mins ago. fml.
dry fjord
maybe they don't sleep
maybe they're always there, watching
although seriously they do seem to turn off sometimes. check for firmware updates
clever sky
Haha
upbeat kestrel
odd musk
tried both today, very fun
pearl tangle
installing accounting now ๐
dry fjord
me2thx
marble trail
I'm trying to track down slides from Michael Abrash's Oculus Connect 3 talk - anyone have a link for these?
clever sky
Opening and closing doors in VR is a revelation.
It's such a mundane thing
But... it feels quite... presence inducing
pearl tangle
better when you are using custom tracking and you are tracking a physical door for vr ๐
clever sky
It's better when you're in real life lololol
clever sky
I'm sure there are some doors around. But I'm specifically talking about swing doors
as opposed to sliding doors.
And I haven't even made it so that it turns by you pulling it yet!
some other VR doors
clever sky
You mean a door with a doggy door?
dry fjord
because it's a door from inside to outside, if you add a second door in it it becomes inside to inside
yes like that except physically correct
clever sky
... Are you talking about a magic door?
Speaking of magic doors, I wanna know how to do portals in Unreal
like portal style portals.
So I can have a magic door.
clever sky
Hmmm
pearl tangle
i did see 1 good navigation example some guys did of looking through a door to see the next level then once you step through you are in it
the way they do the menu system for Fantastic Contraption is great
dry fjord
sounds like that abstract 3d node graph programming game
I forget the name, bought it thuogh
had some basic VR support
was neat
pearl tangle
will be quite interesting when with the VR editor we can do blueprints in there too
wicked oak
you can do blueprnits already
on the vr editor
is useless
to finicky, and you dont have a keyboard for the text stuff
it would need a new kind of 3d blueprints or whatever, with a different interface
dry fjord
I hear the VR editor is getting shelved
or boxed or whatever
no more work on it
nobody used it
dry fjord
I hope the ability to just throw on the HMD and explore sticks around though
tbh it's awesome for placement and scale
clever sky
I mean... I didn't use it myself... but... I just didn't need to yet!
dry fjord
yeah same
I wanted to walk through levels decorating them or blocking them out
quite disappointing
I think the existing functionality will remain
it just won't be improved
clever sky
Shame. Ah well, what's there already has some uses.
But it's probably a reasonable decision. You'd only really want to use to for development when you can use it completely
Because popping on and off the headset is already a hassle!
When testing VR normally.
pearl tangle
i used it a couple of times for blocking out levels
its great to just put together the basic feel of a space and then do the 3d models afterwards
clever sky
Which would suck exponentially more when tweaking things in VR then having to take it off to tweak things on monitor
pearl tangle
but i don't use it for actually properly building the level. still too finicky
clever sky
Yeah, UE needs more robust snap to functionality.
pearl tangle
yeah that was the main problem. screwing around with the snaps is too annoying
clever sky
I imagine in a few years when you've got UI and control systems where you can input text and read it easily, VR development will be very useful.
pearl tangle
I haven't had a chance to play around with it yet but the level editor for cloudlands mini golf looks like the right way to do things
im working on a project at the moment where you have like a god view and a big control panel and then can zoom into a regular view. then i had the teleport function working to jump to whatever spot on the map accidentily but its really awesome so gonna leave it as a function now
clever sky
Still... even now, the right application could see tremendous benefit in VR. e.g. sculpting and animation.
Sounds cool Zoltan
I should mess with real time world scaling. I've already got counter-scaling on my actor
So I can move it easily between different scale levels.
pearl tangle
yeah thats what im doing for that but its surprisingly effective to scale up like 300* and still use the teleport function and have it automatically scale you back down when you teleport
clever sky
That's cool. Do you see the edges of your maps like some kinda giant table top map? ๐
pearl tangle
thats how I have built the space. So everything sits on a table and you can walk around it
clever sky
Put the map on the back of a turtle standing on four giant elephants.
pearl tangle
was that discworld?
clever sky
No it's classic hindu myth.
Their version of flat world theory
But I've got it the wrong way around.
It's 4 giant elephants supporting the world on top of an even bigger turtle
dry fjord
it's turtles all the way down
clever sky
But apparently Discworld borrowed that idea
pearl tangle
yeah sounds like it
dry fjord
little known fact: terry pratchett invented hinduism. it caught on real fast.
pearl tangle
sounds legit
clever sky
@dry fjord I'm Hindu you jerk!
How dare you suggest that our prophet Terry Pratchett invented the religion!
zinc violet
@dry fjord I'm Terry Pratchett you jerk!
dry fjord
I'm such an inconsiderate bastard. it's made worse by the fact that I'm also Terry Pratchett.
clever sky
I am the prophet Terry Pratchet!
And I inven... brought the word of the holy turtle back down from the backs of the great elephants!
dry fjord
haha
clever sky
I think we're going to hindu hell here guys
real needle
Does anyone know how I can use different character blueprints for local multiplayer? I want to try and get asymmetrical multiplayer working for VR (i.e. one person using the Oculus + Touch, another on the PC using a gamepad)
clever sky
Will your game be called "Clank!: When Heads Collide"?
dry fjord
haha
@real needle yeah make two different character blueprints
the other computers still need to know all about that other character
you just pick a different one depending on who is playing as what
and I'd use pawns. the difference seems to be negligible but pawns are more common it feels like
so references to them will work better, when you go "get player pawn", etc
real needle
Currently my VR character is a (heavily modified) version of the basic vehicle from the vehicle template. For initial tests I've now added the third person blueprint to be used by the non-VR player.
My issue is with getting player inputs to work properly and to have the right number of characters spawning. Even if I place one of each in the level, set one to auto possess player 0, and the other to auto posses player 1, when I start (play in editor), it spawns an additional instance of whichever is assigned as the default pawn class. If I set default paw class to none, I get one of the views jumping to world zero. However I set it up, the touch/gamepad/keyboard always control just one of the characters.
dry fjord
well shit is shit. I don't have the steam vr dashboard anymore
it's become some underpowered viveport shit
those are questions for #blueprint @real needle
this dashboard sucks. I can't get to any of the games I own
or any on viveport either
nobody tested this?
yeah even launching the games from the steam desktop is broken
well fuck me
clever sky
Hahaha
Finally someone other than me getting that shitty bug.
Shut down UE4, shut down steam, shut down steam VR, relaunch steam, relaunch steam VR and don't launch UE4 unless you want to do the whole dance again.
dry fjord
nah I know about that
UE4 works
literally nothing else does
also
has science gone too far?
clever sky
No.
You've rebooted as well?
Because I've definetly gotten the whole nothing else running thing before
none of the dashboards, not desktop, not even the damn menu
dry fjord
not yet
I would rather rage at valve on reddit
I get a dashboard
it's just that the steam dashboard has been removed
it's now JUST viveport
it tries to show my steam games but they;re not interactive
clever sky
Yeah, that happens to me all the time
clever sky
Just restart all the VR stuff, check task manager
dry fjord
ok
clever sky
and close out anything related to unreal and steam
dry fjord
done
wait
fuck how did unreal open again
ok
its back ๐ thanks
I wil lremember that shit, valve
dry fjord
how dfo you get the flesh vr headset off your head in the courtroom in accounting?
I've got no hands
clever sky
You throw stuff at the judge
Also, just got door swings that move with my hand working in VR... magggiiicccc
dry fjord
it was a bug, reloading fixed it
nice work
I can't believe accounting took 12 people to make
afternoon's work in that, tops
clever sky
Hahaha ๐
dry fjord
I need to get the vive mic doing playthrough to the headphones
so I don't have to yell at people
it's not very sensitive, guess I'll get another mic hooked up
or use mumble from my phone or something
clever sky
Can't you tweak the mic strength?
I'm pretty sure there's some sort of signal amplifier option buried in some menu
Probably a windows one.
dry fjord
yeah but then the wearer will deafen themselves
it can hear the person wearing it clearly
but not much else
fuck it, better than nothing
clever sky
Because it's within the - 'it's perfectly fine' threshold of latency, and does better on other metrics like frame drops?
Also chart is deceptive. Starts at 15 ends at 30.
No break lines.
clever sky
Yes.
I mean... 20ms latency vs 25ms is...
there's a difference. But only one that will mildly affect a small proportion of the population
Kinda like the diff between 90fps and 120fps
It's better for sure. But diminishing returns setting in for most people.
spring pond
I haven't used OSVR 2, but the first HDK was a shitty HMD, no low-persistance, worse OLED screen, etc
novel coyote
Anyone here in San Francisco?
wicked oak
but then CV1 has async timewarp
and spacewarp
and stuff
so it roflstomps everything else in "feeling"
damn, i sound like such a fanboy
but its the truth, deving for both oculus and vive
spring pond
everyone here is already aware of your fanboyness ๐
I'm going to try space warp this morning
wicked oak
there is one thing that worries me with oculus
and its facebook
in one of the leaked clinton emails, they talk about going to speak with zuckerberg
becouse he is "interested in politic causes"
mighty carbon
do you think around 250k of CV1 units are out there ?
clever sky
Between 100k and 200k is my guess
spring pond
vive has outsold rift AFAIK
clever sky
Yep. Fairly even but Vive ahead right now.
spring pond
it seems it mostly had to do with the lack of shipping units early for the rift tho, now that they are in best buy and can be ordered quickly i think they are narrowing the gap
clever sky
Oculus stuffed it with their no motion controller launch.
But... I guess they kinda bit the bullet for the team by setting price expectations up high! ๐
For the Vive.
Because damn, if the Vive announced their price first... they probably would've ended up copping a lot of the flack for pricing that Oculus got.
Really... now that I remember it, it was Palmer that screwed the pooch.
mighty carbon
regardless, it sounds like PC VR pool is ~200k total (roughly)
clever sky
Probably closer to 300k now.
mighty carbon
optimistically ๐
clever sky
Yeah.
Largely in line with my expectations.
A little on the low side.
But not it's doom and gloom territory.
mighty carbon
it's actually a decent size considering VR is just budding
clever sky
VR is just difficult to spread without first hand demo! And... we dpm
we don't really have a killerapp for VR yet.
I remember Zuckerberg mentioning that they were expecting to sell 100k in the first year.
So they had their expectations dialed right down.
mighty carbon
I have some ideas for killer app, but without having a grant to jumpstart development (or at least VR capable PC and Rift/Touch to build prototype first) it's kinda up in the air for me
clever sky
I've got a killer app idea too! ๐
What's the general gist of your 'killer app' if you can share? ๐
mighty carbon
Have you watched Westworld ?
clever sky
Nope
clever sky
Lookgs intriguing. Gonna watch some ๐
So it's a robotic amusement park where you can live out your fantasies?
... you're looking to build the metaverse aren't you?
mighty carbon
start small, grow big.. something like that
clever sky
Haha... of course the Metaverse is VR's killer killer app. It's basically reality and the internet combined.
But we need a 'Wii Sports'
mighty carbon
I'd do cost analysis first (hello my day job) and probably consult with a savvy programmer first (some of the stuff might not be feasible in the generation 1), before getting to it
nah man
who needs Wii Sports
clever sky
I'm not talking about Wii Sports. I'm talking about the excitement and cultural zeitgeist it brought to the table.
The Wii would've never been nearly as successful without it. IMO.
mighty carbon
and it won't be Metaverse.. It's too big of a scale. I'd be aiming for a smaller scale.
I totally hate Wii Sports and all Nintendo stuff ๐
clever sky
Chris Roberts looks like he's trying to build the sci-fi metaverse ๐
Wonder how that VR support is coming along.
mighty carbon
yes, but it's not feasible financially to build and profit from that kind of quality he is aiming for
I don't think SC will deliver
clever sky
Well... I think that's more a case of consumers lathering themselves up.
As opposed to No Man's Sky where the developers just flat out lieeeeeeeeee
I'm content to watch how SC goes down from the side lines. I had a $250 dollar ship at one point before selling it off.
Back when $250 for a virtual ship seemed crazy. Now people dropping 10gs on all their space sheeps!
mighty carbon
yeah, crazy stuff
clever sky
I think if anyone ever gonna pull off the Metaverse... they'll probably have to crib some of Star Citizen's business model.
mighty carbon
nah
clever sky
Best description of which I heard was 'Whale Hunter Extraordinare'
mighty carbon
I think crowdfunding is cool, but unsustainable
so he burns through all that cash, delivers half-assed game and then what?
how much more he can sell with most people who wanted the game already paying upfront ?
not whole a lot I suppose
clever sky
Well, I said some of it, not all of it.
mighty carbon
also, if it wasn't the guy who made Wing Commander and the same kind of game, it wouldn't rake up that much money
clever sky
The general idea is to create a context where the ships and things that people buy feel like they're worth it.
mighty carbon
if someone has a cult following, they can pull it off
not us, unknown mortals
๐
clever sky
Haha.
Yeah... I think SC's pathway was lightning in a bottle kind of shit. Not happening again like that.
wicked oak
well, ive backed Divinity Original 2 and Windlands
mighty carbon
hell, getting grant from O or E seems to be equally impossible nowadays ๐
wicked oak
and im super happy with both
Divinity Original Sin 2 has already delivered an awesome alpha
wich is around 15-20 hours of gameplay
and Windlands is awesome
clever sky
I'm pretty with most of the stuff I've backed.
I backed a crazy bad ass board game back in 2013
Or 2012
Got it last year. Crazy wait.
I'm pretty happy* with most of the stuff...
wicked oak
news, PSVR has sold 50.000 units in japan
sold out
completely sold out everywhere
assuming similar worldwide, its, at 1 week, more than Oculus + vive
clever sky
I think worldwide is in the 300k to 500k range.
Which is good. But they undershipped to test the waters
Still, this is launch. They'll clear 1 million easy by the end of a year.
wicked oak
its very good indeed
ill be able to publish for it
got access yay
but devkits are incredibly expensive
mighty carbon
like $5k I bet
spring pond
man thats actually pretty cheap
mighty carbon
cheap for indies ? o.O
wicked oak
its not 2.5k
its more
there is also the cheaper TEST kit
wich is what im going to get
TESTkit is basically a modded ps4 with homebrew
a bit more extra stuff
but basically a normal console
thats why its a test-kit, becouse its used for testing the game in the "consumer" hardware
devkits have more memory, more cpu, profile stuff, debug stuff
they are huge
mighty carbon
damn
better than 2.5k though ๐
XB1 has cheapest dev kits ๐
but it has no VR :/
plucky seal
full junco
are there any specific infos about SteamVR + Linux + Vulkan now or nothing new in the last few days?
wicked oak
XB1 devkits are free lol
ask for them showing that you are an indie and they give you one or 2
prime iris
Anybody read a dev article/blog recently about improving throwing mechanics in respect to gameplay rather than physics simulation accuracy? I swear I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find it (nor any luck with google)
think it might have been unity based but it seemed like it might be relevant to ue
mighty carbon
I would probably throw controller when throwing stuff in VR ๐
prime iris
Budget Cuts is going to destroy so many TVs and brittle furniture ๐
spring pond
@full junco at dev days there was a booth with SteamVR + SteamOS + vulkan running
they just said "coming in the future"
full junco
@spring pond ok, did they say what they are waiting for or what they still have to work on to release it?
prime iris
Probably just a little bit of QA. I didn't attend Dev days but the articles I read about Linux/Mac support for SteamVR came across like it was one of their short term/imminent goals rather than the "when we get around to it" perspective they gave earlier this year
mighty carbon
(always wanted to play KZ3)
dry fjord
@mighty carbon that doesn't look like it hits their 90fps target
mighty carbon
I mean, how did they hook up Vive to PS3 ?!
prime iris
duct tape
Or perhaps when they say "On PS3" what they meant is whoever is wearing the headset is stood on top of a PS3?
mighty carbon
ha
prime iris
Probably a typo though. I mean it's from 2016, are studios still shipping ps3 titles now? Wouldn't be surprised but seems a little late in the lifecycle
real needle
Does anyone know if epic is planning to include a different resolution for the screen preview in 4.14?
I've seen it's possible to do by changing some of the engine source but I don't want to do all that work and then just having it go native
prime iris
@mighty carbon looking to old content is probably a great way to make good VR content. Just look at DolphinVR, it's a gamecube to wii era emulator with VR support. Lots of quality games there with minor tweaks to make UI accessible
dry fjord
I think the applications without changes to the games are limited
a lot of them become pukefests
I'd rather see things like old RTS games getting motion controller support
which requires a reworking
junior prism
Is there any write-up on the preferred way of making sure people are not using room scale in VR?
My way is to take them to a calibration scene and force them to sit down :/
dry fjord
have an option
you don't know if they're short, in a wheelchair, etc
never assume anything, just ask
then make it so you can switch it at any time, easily
full junco
@spring pond @prime iris Rolando Caloca from Epic just said "For VR, as soon as we have SM5 working (and thoroughly tested on Linux) we can look into adding SteamVR support. Valve is still working on it."
(related to vulkan)
prime iris
@junior prism Is it especially important? One nifty solution I saw recently was that it just did a desaturated post processing effect on the world when you stepped somewhere you shouldnt be able to get to. Their example was walking through a door that had not been opened
Not seen anything specific to making a player play seated though
@dry fjord yeah, the DolphinVR games need some hacks to make them work properly but some people have had a bunch of fun playing them even with minor changes. Good summary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jsu21Q2Z5Y
dry fjord
prime iris
They also come with the added benefit of already being pretty performant when run on modern hardware. Or at least are more likely to be ๐
noble crater
@prime iris is this the article you were looking for http://www.normalvr.com/blog/throwing-throw-down/ ?
abstract gale
@noble crater interesting read, thanks
anyone had major aliasing issues they solved with Raw Data? nearly everything looks jagged and shimmering by default, level textures included
this particular machine for testing is using a base level R290 card, but had nothing close resembling the issues with other experiences as with raw data
prime iris
@noble crater IT WAS. HERE HAVE ALL THE HEARTS โค โค โค
Although now that I'm playing around with simulate physics type interactions, I'm not sure it is relevant :<
ah well. thanks linking
real needle
@abstract gale Raw Data has had issues with AMD cards
It usually looks pretty jaggy until you turn the supersampling up
1.5-1.8 is usually pretty good
prime iris
Has there been any mention from the Raw Data devs recently? Don't recall seeing anything since they mentioned they met with valve? Possible assimilation in to the Portal universe? ๐
oh wait, I'm thinking budget cuts
dry fjord
probably the same
prime iris
yeah. raw data needs the sampling resolution turned up. I play with everything on low except for textures on high and 1.3x scaling
only got a 970 though so trying to push it higher makes it drop frames. if your card can handle it go as high as you can
prime iris
Yeah, it's not perfect by any means. They said that they haven't really looked in to performance yet which makes me hopeful
hopeful that they won't just increase the min spec and call it finished at least ๐
silk lodge
@prime iris Budget cuts is coming out next year. It seems like it's still a small team project
dry fjord
why do all VR games have ring binders
someone's getting good use out of that asset purchase
prime iris
@silk lodge yeah, I can wait. In fact I appreciate that they're taking their time to get it right. Just observing that they went to see Valve for a week and haven't made any discussion since!
makes me wonder if they secretly got involved with Valve
silk lodge
I met the dude at sdd
prime iris
beyond being the Vive poster child game
silk lodge
it might just be one dude ๐
dry fjord
nah when you get there they put you into a testing facility. it's good that they came back out. portal is a documentary.
dry fjord
yeah but you stay for the gaben hugs
prime iris
has there been any mention of when they'll get the SDD talks up on to youtube? Checked 2014's and they took a couple of weeks after the event
poor and in europe meant I couldn't really attend :<
real needle
@silk lodge One dev, one artist. They're from Sweden ๐
silk lodge
@real needle cool!
clever sky
Hahaha... first episode of new big budget HBO shows is basically softcore porn.
'What can we do to pull in the viewers?' 'So much tits, dicks and pussy!'
referring to West World in case anyone's wondering.
granite jacinth
Is this your first time watching anything from HBO or Showtime @clever sky ?
granite jacinth
I mean...
clever sky
No.
granite jacinth
Then what are you talking about?
clever sky
It's more prevalent in their opening eps
granite jacinth
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
clever sky
Then the rest of the series.
It's a cynical formula that works so well!
It's not just a 'HBO shows feature sex and nudity' deal.
dry fjord
anthony hopkins makes it
prime iris
HBO tits don't do it for me. Ever since I saw Oz I can't get my rocks off unless it's a transvestite lawyer and a white supremecist
Westworld is pretty intriguing so far, saving judgement until the season is over though
clever sky
So how do Westworld rules work? Customers get virtual guns and all the actors have explosive pellets embedded?
And blood bags
prime iris
To me it doesn't matter how it works. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Though I prefer scifi to fantasy because they don't tend to mess with common sense as much as wizards
clever sky
Well, I like it when sci-fi thinks through its 'science'
Like in a VR environment, all the stuff that's happening is plausible.
dry fjord
I reckon the universe that westworld is set in is the original terminator universe. from here they take over and begin time travelling and eventually create the timeline with john connor
evolving all the way
clever sky
But then they go to pains to emphasize that this is a recreation city.
dry fjord
have you watched the original movie?
pearl tangle
yeah i don't quite see how westworld would work when you can do whatever you want to anybody and you cant tell who is real or a robot
dry fjord
a lot of it comes from that
clever sky
There's a movie?
dry fjord
yeah
prime iris
@clever sky sure, but you're talking of 100-200 years in to the future judging by the tech
dry fjord
classic 70s movie
pearl tangle
it's fine if its just guns. but like when the guy stabs the dude in the hand with a knife, how would you stop them doing that to a real person accidentily
dry fjord
go get it, it's great
one of the ongoing themes is that humans are easy to spot because they're vapid
hence why the man in black is most likely a host as well
a persistent one
clever sky
@prime iris 100-200 years is really far. It looks more like a few decades away given the style of stuff outside of the westworld town
clever sky
Hahaha
dry fjord
I think some of the staff are hosts too
the black guy with the waistcoat
everyone hopkins gets along with
prime iris
a few decades for that level of AI is probably a little ambituous. Perhaps west world could 1st edition in a few decades but I'd say you're probably looking at 100 years min for that kind of bioengineering
dry fjord
the first AI capable of self improvement will be the last AI
also the last time we are masters of our own destinies
clever sky
I thought you were all: "To me it doesn't matter how it works. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
pearl tangle
the bio engineering stuff probably 80-100 years. the AI probably 50 or less
clever sky
Now you're down in the trenches arguing plausibility! ๐
prime iris
i dont think the staff are all hosts. there might be one or two but i think the staff are going to have to deal with all the hosts in "storage" coming to get them
dry fjord
none of it is that far removed from what we can do now
nah not all the staff are hosts
I doubt it'll become a robot zombie thriller
more that they'll have to deal with the moral issues of self awareness as the hosts come back
clever sky
Seems like it has more of a multi-layer conspiracy vibe
clever sky
And that too.
prime iris
@pearl tangle Sure. I can consider datacentre sized AI a possibility in 50 years ๐
dry fjord
also that gun she found, I think it's the only gun that can shoot a guest
I dunno, a lot of "ai" behaviour can just be indexed behaviour
pearl tangle
why does it matter where the processing is happening, everything is connected to the web anyway
dry fjord
pre-calculated
clever sky
I bet Google gets some neural net derived acting AI going in the next decade or two.
pearl tangle
difference between intelligence and choosing from set choices
dry fjord
the only hole in this whole thing is that the hosts have real emotions. it's nonsense
prime iris
@pearl tangle that's true, I never thought about having the hosts be controlled remotely
dry fjord
or if it is, it's the first thing they'll turn off
clever sky
Basically just comb through all the bloody media and find neural net patterns
dry fjord
it's way more likely the hosts are just remote drones
they get smashed to bits
you'd want that to be cheap
clever sky
And we'll have AI at that level of 'acting' in 10-15 years.
@dry fjord Yeah, a lot of the 'design' of Westworld is anachronistic
given what we'd do today.
Remote AI actors + drone bodies. Don't need seperate AIs in robot bodies.
That's just an inefficient approach!
dry fjord
retiring a body because the brain is whack? it's nonsense
prime iris
It doesn't quite fit with the story though i guess. why go head hunting and recall bodies when their control is local ?
pearl tangle
well to people that understand the technology and how businesses work there are obvious flaws with it. but you get that with every tv show
pearl tangle
still gotta be incredibly expensive to build the bodies
dry fjord
why is everyone so dumb
clever sky
Well, more believable would've just been VR setting.
But that would've kind sidestepped half of the shows tropes
prime iris
depends how they actually work. it could be that they are bioengineered rather than traditional software. might not be a case of updating the firmware as much as replacing organs
dry fjord
nah they're all machine on the inside
they're robot chassis with polymer musculature then finally human flesh on the outside for warmth and appeal
clever sky
Haha... someone's been paying attention!
dry fjord
that intro is fun to watch
clever sky
SAO?
dry fjord
that 3d printer they have does good overhang
clever sky
Oh the Westworld intro
dry fjord
yeah
prime iris
did I miss something? the intro 3d prints from skeletons up. they could be entirely organic unless they said otherwise in dialogue?
dry fjord
there's robot joints in it too
unpowered, that's how you know the white parts are polymer muscles
without motors rather
plus all the motors you need would be bulky
clever sky
The robot actors have to go in the buff a lot huh
Wonder if they keep doing that the entire series ๐
dry fjord
haha
it's like the actors in spartacus and GoT
a lot of them are escorts and strippers
in real life
clever sky
Ah yeah
dry fjord
tirion's love interest that he strangled has done a LOT of porn
prime iris
oh really
clever sky
Makes sense.
prime iris
just gunna do some programming
mighty carbon
@clever sky SOA is Sword Art Online.. Pretty sweet anime.
dry fjord
haha sure
clever sky
Well... I enjoyed the first half of the first season
dry fjord
I've fotgotten what her name is
prime iris
Shae
mighty carbon
Asuna
prime iris
the character at least
clever sky
lol @ Asuna ๐
prime iris
has there been any mention of SOA being turned in ot a VR game since the writer mentioned their interest
mighty carbon
yeah, and they did shitty job with that
prime iris
has a pretty obvious fit for a good vr title. hopefully they don't PS4 exclusive it
mighty carbon
totally rushed junk
clever sky
They've made a VR demo experience
prime iris
oh? there is one already?
clever sky
They showed it off to public in centre, didn't release demo online.
mighty carbon
animation and AI is what gonna drive VR experiences IMO
clever sky
Also, they've made plenty of SAO games
mighty carbon
and neither IBM, no Google, nor Amazon are interested in exposing their AI to entertainment :/
clever sky
Why do you say that motorsep?
mighty carbon
well, Alexa and Google Assistant are the ones you can talk to and get decent coherent responses
dry fjord
the AI at IBM isn't tuned for that. but you could solve a lot of mannequin behaviours with a well cooked neural net
pallid echo
prime iris
personally I think the next big step beyond improvements to the displays and headsets is going to be down to hand and body tracking
mighty carbon
imagine using that in games to talk to NPCs!
clever sky
@dry fjord Isn't that what Euphoria is?
They incorporate neural net learning into their systems don't they?
dry fjord
mighty carbon
learning isn't needed at this stage
mighty carbon
maybe later, when VR is a mass product
clever sky
Nah, it's definetly got some kinda AI in there to drive reactivity
That's the whole point of it.
dry fjord
a neural net is way of indexing and solving fuzzy data. it's perfect for physical behaviours.
prime iris
being able to see a virtual body, track footsteps, press buttons, grip with your hand. point, etc is going to be a huge improvement to input. You'll still want a tangible gun controller or whatever for most games. but having your body inside the world is next level stuff
dry fjord
but it's not "thinking"
clever sky
Whether or not it's an evolutionary AI or a neural net AI, or some combination of both, is no longer clear to me.
clever sky
Yeah. It's main purpose is to 'react a bit like a human when tossed around'
dry fjord
considering how old euphoria is and what it's used for AI would not only be ridiculous overkill, it wouldn't have run
clever sky
So limbs protecting faces where possible, etc.
prime iris
I'm looking forward to what valve can do. If half life and source is anythign to go by they have a really good attention to detail. HL2 pioneered having characters you interacted with feel like people
dry fjord
it's more about "this is how you fall down" and add in additive "this was in your leg's way"
and then motors
it's all in UE now
clever sky
Don't they update euphoria?
dry fjord
doubt it
it's used in GTA V
so you can sit at stare at it
the game has a ton of variation but in the end it's nothing special
just a well put together character engine
dry fjord
not much to improve
the next step would be so huge that it won't be in this generation of computing or the next, or the one after
BUT
you can definitely use neural nets to develop a lot of behaviours, saves time hand making them
select the ones that make sense
dry fjord
but for instance the neural net you use to generate desire paths and destinations and activities would be different from the neural net you use to generate realistic facial expressions and reactions to things
isn't shadow nest that sniper game?
clever sky
Well, once you train a neural net it's gonna be different
dry fjord
as in they have completely different scope
you wouldn't add that extra dimension to the data of facial expressions
you'd pre-describe mood states
you wouldn't iterate the same task a million times with different facial expressions
the disconnect would be "happy" "sad"
"happy about this task I walked over to do"
face network: "I'm happy, let's try some facial positions"
realistically the face training would just be lots of images and videos of mood
to train the possible positions and movements while holding that position
clever sky
Yeah
dry fjord
the activity training would be what balance of activity do you have versus risk/reward
if even that
you kind of just want behaviours to make sense
like not going to the shop at night
or going straight home after shopping and putting the food away
but maybe if you have friends you do that first
not a complicated network there
clever sky
The way I understand it, neural net is just a learning algorithm, and how you design it depends on how you train it and how you set it up.
Determines what it does
dry fjord
because it's goal oriented and you don't put the shopping four feet to the left of the fridge, neural networks don't have much use there
junior prism
@dry fjord No fuckin' idea, they don't have it trademarked so it's their loss
dry fjord
yeah, people use them to fill in data and quickly come up with new responses
so they have huge indexes
clever sky
Response indexes?
dry fjord
then you'd pair that index down to fit in a game
yeah
and include a few simple parameters for blending between them at random
as many parameters as you can think of for you game
clever sky
Yeah. I guess you're not running the learning algorithm in the game. You just want the learnt states.
dry fjord
you'd end up with a system where you have a sequence in UE where you say "you sit here, do it angrily. then get upset and say this line"
and it might be different each time
clever sky
Makes sense because running the learning algorithm takes a lot of parallel horsepower.
dry fjord
or it might be highly specific for a cutscene
so the variation isn't as important as the reactions to it
if you have variable cutscenes and one character is being a dick, you want the right response from other characters
you don't make your neural network track the entire interaction, that'd be cheating. you let one pawn's random state affect another pawn's random choices
clever sky
That's cool. But then as a director you'd do the different takes and freeze them. Just like you do with real actors ๐
dry fjord
then it becomes immersive
yeah you could
I'd be all for the randomness in cutscenes though
sometimes a character throws a beer
sometimes it doesn't
different ways of expressing anger
THAT is the procedural content I want
and I want it to come up with new swears each time
clever sky
Is that sort of randomness desirable in cutscenes? Seems more like a real time interaction kinda deal.
clever sky
With other neural net functions driving the behaviour.
clever sky
But unless they can marry the lines up
dry fjord
they already have random dialogue lines while they drive around
I'm sure they can
keep the dialogue generally the same, let the neural net results vary it by a parameter
let the reactions take on some of that variance result
it's all I'm asking
clever sky
Well... if anyone can do it, Rockstar would be in the closest position to do so.
dry fjord
you'd need decent speec synthesis too
yeah they would
they've been into this kind of thing for a while
it has wider application as a dev tool though
not just a perk of a game
I wonder if we can fake a setup like this and not bother with the neural net responses for now
clever sky
Just random jitter to drive variation in behaviour?
dry fjord
I guess what you'd do is feed the script into the neural net with all the right tags and let it construct a lot of procedural outcomes
yeah
it'd be baked in game
clever sky
I'm sure you could model something. How robust it is depends on how well you understand human behaviour!
dry fjord
with set variance, set steps
easy
I wonder if anyone has done any software for modifying the mood of pre-recorded speech
clever sky
Do you use easy as a synonym for doable? ๐
dry fjord
haha
clever sky
Because they're not the same things in my book!
dry fjord
yeah I do
clever sky
Haha ๐
dry fjord
ok, I reckon a neural net is the solution to speech modification
definitely
it could add pauses, inflection, change the tone, etc
and you'd be left with factors like "angry" or "you're stupid" or "happy"
we found the killer use
clever sky
Neural net can already drive speech synthesis if Google and amazon stuff is anything to go by.
dry fjord
haven't seen their stuff
clever sky
But the issue is having an emotional director
dry fjord
the same neural network could be used to detect tone in a real voice too
pfft humans are easy, you can quantize their emotions and reactions
clever sky
Wonder if you can train that director with all the existing media/movies
dry fjord
be hard
you need to set targets then limit your input to those targets
then you select valid results
clever sky
But... you'd have to pay Amazon turks to quantify the emotions expressed in those films
dry fjord
kill others
clever sky
Which would result in noisy data
dry fjord
I like the idea of using a neural net to synthesize speech and voices a lot though
clever sky
I think that's doable. It's just that driving the undertones of speech is...
Challenging.
dry fjord
it's no different from identifying phonomes
in the end a neural net is just a complicated blending machine
like deep image for sound
if we could run some of the audio processing tasks it needs on the GPU it'd roar along
the nice thing is about voices is that they're a spectrum as well
same for inflection and emphasis
once that's all sorted you start comparing it to movies and add emotional tagging
clever sky
What you're talking about though is you'd have a neural net system that you could direct
like a vocaloid
dry fjord
I bet we could build a system that can detect lying
yeah
it'd be useful for both listening to real speech, altering recorded speech or creating totally new speed
keep in mind the T1000 has something like this on board
clever sky
So you write the lines of dialogue and you mess around with other information like tonality, inflection, etc.
dry fjord
yeah
clever sky
And then the virtual actor speaks them out
clever sky
Ah... I was thinking more about the other side of the equation.
dry fjord
then correct the mood and inflection
clever sky
Yeah that too.
dry fjord
"angrier"
clever sky
Oh that's good.
dry fjord
mocap has this already too
clever sky
Yeah, dynamic retargeting.
dry fjord
you can record your body and face and add more inflection to it
audio is just more processing and more data
clever sky
Like the face cap company that apple bought.
clever sky
Damn you Apple! Us developers needed that shit!
dry fjord
haha
clever sky
Now they're going to stick it in snapchat equivalent.
So on a different topic.
You been having any issues with your Vive controllers?
clever sky
Had to send one back because it wouldn't register click down in the upper right quadrant. So it'd click up and then down again when you roll your thumb around the trackpad
Then they sent it back with the same bloody problem.
The other one has something loose in it.
Also makes a rattle when the motor rumbles.
And the trigger spring is weak, so it doesn't push it out fully.
Registers a weak 0.01 to 0.1 value all the time.
dry fjord
so you need a new one and you have to take better care of it ๐
how old is your vive?
clever sky
Well, getting the wonkier one (the double clicker) sent back again.
Got it at launch.
clever sky
You'd hope so.
dry fjord
they probably tune their production all the time
clever sky
If only they'd tune their RMA process ๐
The net chat dudes seem responsive enough
Whoever fixes stuff doesn't seem to care to check too much tho!
prime iris
they can rma your controllers faster than oculus can ship touch!
clever sky
And whoever is doing follow up calls suck balls! (they told me they'd give me a follow up, and they didn't, so called them a week later).
Actually, their turn around time is pretty fast, so pretty impressed there.
It's just, less impressive when you don't actually fix the problem.
prime iris
The trackpad on my controllers can be sketchy at times too. Only using them for dev though so it's not too important, and I'll probably buy the new versions when they come out before I do start playing games more
That said, damn there's been a bunch of nice looking games coming out this month
clever sky
Haha... I'm the opposite. Had the problem for a while before deving for VR.
After I start deving, I thought... yeah, this sucks, best to get them replaced.
I'm kinda interested in the golf game. But... I don't even like golf that much!
prime iris
I enjoyed cloudlands minigolf
clever sky
I think I'd only want it just to say: See! VR can simulate real world experiences quite well!
prime iris
but there have been a few thing showing up on r/vive that impressed me by what look like indie studios
quell 4d? some other physics puzzler that looked like it had a decent artist too
clever sky
Yeah. Looking forward to Vertigo/Budget Cuts myself. Those are defo small 1-2 man teams.
prime iris
and serious sam vr of course ๐
clever sky
Ah yeah. Quell was good fun. Actually made Serious Sam less fun.
Because you had this contrast between a simple shooter with traditional movement mechanics
and turret shooter
prime iris
I was tired of wave shooters before the Vive even launched. And I hadn't even played them. just seeing all the videos of them being almost indistinguishable gameplay wise was meh
Gunna get SS:VR and already got raw data though
just to see what a larger studio can do with VR
dry fjord
H3VR all the way
prime iris
What was the game that added OSU beat map support?
dry fjord
I'm only up to level 2 of RD
need to play more
always so tired
like now
going home
prime iris
I need to add it to my wishlist!
clever sky
Haha. Go home and play some RD!
Actually, I wish RD had dual wielding katanas. They've got dual wielding pistols... which are also awesome once you've unlocked the quick reload powerup.
I actually think that's probably the best action game pistol reload mechanism I've tried ever.
*you simply bring your pistols down to your holsters by your hips and they reload right away. Sounds simple, but it feels amazing in the heat of battle!
clever sky
One of the coolest moments for me in Raw Data was... aiming pistols in two different directions and scoring a double kill that way.
VR!
fist pump
dry fjord
need a matrix lobby simulator
clever sky
@dry fjord When you rotated your hand mesh to match your hand position... how aggressively did you try to match actual hand position?
Did you just move the mesh down, or rotate it too?
dry fjord
exact
like, why would you do anything but
oh I see
yeah I rotated it too
so the knuckles were in the same position
real needle
I've been playing The Art Of Fight, it's great
The style of SuperHot but gameplay like CS
clever sky
Yeah, you'd want to get it as close as possible. Just hard when you can't see your hands exactly!
Fuck. You get left and right hand asymmetry because of the origin locations of the hand!
My left hand knuckles are too low, my right hand knuckles are too high compared to mesh
dry fjord
that sounds like a tracking problem
clever sky
Nope. The default mirroring algorithm not good enough it seems
Line up the controllers and left hand rotated up and right hand rotated down.
lined up*
dry fjord
hmm
so, I have something attached to a socket on a mesh. i want to rotate it programatically.
actually it's thing 1 attached to the mesh and thing 2 attached to thing 1
I want to rotate thing 2
it won't do it
how do I do this?
clever sky
Sounds like the kind of problem I'm having right now.,
Fuckin' sword keeps pointing weird directions after I messed with the hand mesh rotations
dry fjord
hmm :/
the item won;'t rotate at al lthough
it ignores rotation once it's been attached
it's definitely attached to the socket, it animates
aah
well
I don't know what
but it works in VR and not in simulate
so no problem
dry fjord
fix one thing, break another
sigh
it's irritating as shit that you can't watch a BP while using the HMD
I need to see what it's doing
pearl tangle
yeah gotta jump out and back to the editor to go into it
once it's attached to the socket you will want to manipulate its local rotation though rather than world rotation if thats what you were doing?
dry fjord
nah that's fine, it's working
it just wasn't having an effect in simulation mode
both world and local rotation work, that just defines the transform space
yeah nothing's happenign in the editor view in vive preview
oh well ,fixed it
strange shit
clever sky
Sometimes the hackiest approaches are the best approaches
Rotating and messing with my hand mesh location was causing a shit load of issues.
Because it was rotating the attachment socket too
And the collision stuff
So I went fuck it. Hid the hand mesh and created a child hand mesh that would serve as the visible proxy for it.
Beautiful. Presence inducing and able to move the visual and attachment points independently.
clever sky
๐
wicked oak
@clever sky im doing prety much the same thing
bonus, it works multiplatform
my Hand class is attached to the motion controller transform
and then the hand has the mesh and the attachment point
that way i can modify the mesh easily or tweak the attachment point
clever sky
Nah. I've gone one layer deeper.
I've got Motion Controller > Hand Mesh (with attachment socket) > Visible Hand Mesh
Otherwise screwing with the hand mesh with attachment socket was creating issues that I was complaining about earlier.
I mean ideally one wouldn't have to resort to such 'hacky' methods and position the hand mesh and socket properly. But if it works it works!
wintry escarp
make hands great again
wicked oak
currently doing MP
im abusing the system a bit, creating 3 actors per character
hands. and head
that way i can let the engine do the locomotion interpolation
ive done it by putting a Transform replicated
but ehh
its very jumpy
even on lan
my game is going to be so hard to get working right on lag conditions
on a normal game you dont move as fast as you do in VR
mighty carbon
I wonder why it's laggy
doesn't UE4 do client-side stuff ?
(where you only send small updates / flags over the net)
wicked oak
its laggy becouse network works that way
we are talking about VR hand controllers
that means the player can flick their wrist really fast
my game is probably going to end up super hackeable
as ill have to do a lot of clientside stuff to minimize lag
its a tradeoff
clientside = more hackeable, less laggy
serverside = less hackeable, laggier
clever sky
Not that I know how to do the multiplayer stuff yet... but can't we do clientside with serverside checking?
Like serverside tracks but not authoritative... and if the client report exceeds error of margin, then use serverside tracking?
wicked oak
yeah, thats what im going to do
but it has its limits
due to lag, you need to have reasonable differences
for example
im going to do a "Fire" function, that sends the server the location and rotation of the fire
so the server can create the projectile
of course, that would let a hacker Fire everywhere he wants
without a care for anything
BUT
you could add a reasonable limit
for example, if the Fire location is too far from the player location
you call haks
but still, that would mean one easy as hell aimbot
clever sky
How about a running log of client side data and server side data?
wicked oak
i mean basically doing clientside Fire(Location,Rotation)
if you do a "Fire()"
that uses the server location
clever sky
Hmm
wicked oak
then you dont have that aimbotty stuff or killing people everywhere in the map
BUT
then you are firing with lag
clever sky
Yeah
clever sky
Are there obvious patterns for bot detection?
wicked oak
that ends up calling the "Fire(LOcation,Rotation)" to the server
clever sky
Like tracking the turning rate on client side and reporting that to server?
wicked oak
server creates the projectile, and replicates it to everyone
and at that point, your fake projectile gets removed for the real projectile
or just forget about fake projectiles
do the firing FX muzzle flash
but the projectile only launches if the server says so
clever sky
So the bullet hit only comes from the server reporting it to client
Which becomes obvious on lag I guess.
Fun subject matter to think about.
wicked oak
yeah, bullet hit detection is on the server
wich of course can give lag
but maybe i let that "fake projectile" report hits to the server
but might open the door for shanenigans
anyway, hacking in VR is complicated
due to the head display and stuff
clever sky
Fair call
wicked oak
i think ill focus on making the game feel good
hackers will be banned after
or just adding more serverside checks
becouse its a very high speed game
with teleporting and stuff
that thing is very problematic with lag
becouse if one teleports, and other shoots at him
where is him?
in his screen, he already teleported
in the server, he is on the way
in the enemy, he hasnt teleported yet
clever sky
Yeah. Players don't really care what happens behind the scenes as long as it 'feels good'.
'feels right'.
wicked oak
yup, but if i let the enemy to kill the other guy
the other guy will be like WTF is this shit
like in battlefield 4
wich has clientside bullets
clever sky
True that.
mighty carbon
well, if you don't have "official" servers, why do you care about hacks?
clever sky
Why would you not care about the integrity of your game?
mighty carbon
DOOM 2016 got aimbot in public alpha ๐
All Steam games have achievements hacked
only companies with truck load of cash can afford to worry about hacks for online games (Blizzard, Riot, Valve, etc.)
@clever sky it's a matter of simple economics and availability of resources
if people run private servers, it's on them to ensure there are no cheaters
clever sky
Well, having a little protection is better than none. Gotta make those kiddies work harder to compromise the player experience!
mighty carbon
if you run your company's server, then sure, it's on you. Don't run your company servers as you can't afford security and support ๐
(speaking from experience)
wicked oak
ill just add safeguards against the obvious stuff
and fix over time
as i said, hacking in VR is hard
you cant really add your cheats window on vr
and how do you interact with the cheats with the headset on?
on PC is easy becouse you have a keyboard with a shitton of keys
so you can macro it
or multiple monitors
mighty carbon
tbh man, just make a good game ๐
people often get bogged down with these security thoughts and at the end of the day never get it as tight as big guys do, and the game lacks due to time spent on security instead of on gameplay
winged shale
anyone begin working with Google Daydream in UE4? Looks pretty promising!
winged shale
there's a new section on the docs: https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Platforms/GoogleVR/index.html
looks pretty simple, also Daydream comes with a motioncontroller
clever sky
Yeah. Saw that. Hopefully they'll release that project as a learner.
As well as Robot Recall
clever sky
3D inventory looks sweet.
winged shale
apparently to use daydream in beta, you had to use two android phones, one for display and the other for the motion controller ๐
winged shale
just preordered the pixel last night and was all "Hmmm, what's this Daydream stuff all about"