they may not win the google case
#lounge
pearl elk
Google was always more difficult but if they lose Google maybe it gives them ammo against Apple
light spruce
if he did, going after it and proving that he knowingly did so isn't necessarily likely either
pearl elk
Yeah I suppose this is the US, the land of the free to bullshit your way out of anythin
Exhibit A, Mr Potus
north torrent
Is Apple just trying to prove they are the big bully monopoly now?
light spruce
Without going off the deep end there ... it's kind of difficult to prove what someone did or didn't know or understand to the best of their ability without some serious documented evidence of such.
north torrent
I can prove that Mr. 451 was daydreaming during class on Thursday afternoon.
light spruce
There is a difference between being wrong and being deliberately untruthful
rich quiver
https://twitter.com/EpicNewsroom since when this account is live
Twitter
north torrent
This grade on his test proves it.
pearl elk
Oh they arnt just cutting Epic off guys, they are cutting everyone off essentially
Epic cant offer iOS support without those dev tools
rich quiver
oh since the lawsuit well at least have epic game company dev account again on twitter
north torrent
Everyone who uses Unreal Engine is now cut off.
That means everyone here but Karol...
pearl elk
I wonder how those walled garden lovers are feelin bout their decision right about now
light spruce
Oh... shit. Yeah, I didn't immediately think about the gravity of losing the Apple Developer account (because it's been fucking ages since I've been one)
rich quiver
they broke ToS
pearl elk
I didnt pick up on it till I read the opening page here either
yeah Epic broke the ToS not the third parties they are now punishing
rich quiver
https://twitter.com/Slasher/status/1295434558112960519 rip third party dev mac ports
Twitter
and ios games
light spruce
Well, arguably, they aren't punishing those people. Because it's always been on the individual developer to adhere to any policies.
pearl elk
Yes but Unreal Engine did nothing wrong
rich quiver
but the devs get affected by this
pearl elk
they can remove Fortnite dev accounts be my guest but removing all of Epic, thats just bullying
rich quiver
epic have 2 accounts on the appstore
north torrent
This is why I like Epic Games.
rich quiver
the development one for Unreal and the Epic Games
light spruce
Yeah, that's not invalidating what I'm saying. Regardless of whatever software you use, you were always responsible for it. It's not like you suddenly couldn't publish something using Unreal.
north torrent
I would be totally fine if Epic just stopped focusing on mobile development.
rich quiver
and mac
light spruce
They've also been doing more stuff than just mobile game development
north torrent
Can you develop for Mac?
ancient hornet
is Apple arguing that they should be antitrust split? cause that's how you do it
north torrent
Is that a thing?
rich quiver
yes @north torrent
light spruce
Their filmmaking tools on iOS are pretty interesting
north torrent
You learn something new every day.
light spruce
Also just their capture tools for doing facial animation
rich quiver
pearl elk
I think Apple might have a difficult time proving dev agreements are binding for the entire company, if one person breeches they can ban everyone
north torrent
Well, it is just a matter of months before either Huawei or Sony release some sort of motion capture camera that surpasses Apples.
light spruce
No, they won't. Because you enter into an agreement as the company
rich quiver
feels bad for the guy that wasted 3 years on the facial capture project
north torrent
Preferably in a stand alone camera, but knowing Huawei they will probably be idiots and try to shove it in a phone.
I remember just last week everyone thought I was an idiot for not wanting to use an iPhone based motion capture program...
pearl elk
I dont see how that works, a company can just ban an entire nother company that sounds anti-competitive
ancient hornet
that's the thing with antitrust stuff
it's fine doing it, until it isn't anymore
Apple is close to be valued at 2 trillion dollars
pearl elk
So all Epic has to do is make a subsidiary and they can get around the ban?
ancient hornet
one doesn't simply get valued that much without massive amount of monopolistic abuse behavior 😄
pearl elk
Cuz the contract was with Epic Games not Fit Bong Girls owned by Epic Games
light spruce
That's how licensing works. You issue a license to use some portion of your IP for some purpose under some type of agreement which can include ways in which that agreement can be terminated.
north torrent
That is the equivalent to in my 2nd grade class when I (the US government) tell one student to stop hitting another student, then he just stares me straight in the eyes, holds eye contact, and hits the kid again.
Apple is just trying to see if the US government has the balls to do something.
rich quiver
Twitter
light spruce
That's not true. Also, not really big on Twitter by proxy either.
rich quiver
north torrent
If it comes from Twitter I automatically don't believe it.
pearl elk
You just wont be able to really get updates for iOS updates since Unreal Engine wont have dev access to Apple
light spruce
basically, if I wanted to read a bunch of people posting shit on Twitter, I'd be reading Twitter.
rich quiver
Twitter
pearl elk
Current shit will function for awhile
light spruce
Okay. Problem solved there.
rich quiver
rip namco bandai
pearl elk
I love Apple, Im so glad I bought an iThing
light spruce
It would only be an issue as a normal developer at some point where things like APIs change
north torrent
Just wait till China decides to take a side...
light spruce
Nothing gets me harder than Touchwiz and a Bixby button
north torrent
I have a Galaxy S1 in my closet, Mr. Olympus... So I win.
pearl elk
China already has, its against Apple
north torrent
China has already considered banning Apple.
All the rich Chinese people have iPhones.
pearl elk
From what Ive been reading recent laws in the US might impact Apples business in China and make people buy local phones instead
Thats a win for Epic there and all they had to do was let Trump fume 😛
north torrent
Huawei is now the #1 phone manufacturer in the world because of tRump.
Samsung would still be on top if the US market was buying phones.
ancient hornet
Fortnite doesn't exist in China yet though 😛
pearl elk
yet
light spruce
Market saturation + dramatic price increases
north torrent
China is the kind of government that would put Fortnite on every Huawei phone just to throw a big middle finger to Google and Apple.
light spruce
And that's before you consider the current conditions
pearl elk
third party stores are backing the fight against Google though too
thats some big names
light spruce
At least on the Android side you can install things from other sources
pearl elk
I think the main thing with Android is that Google are blocking preloads from non Play Store sources
light spruce
s/new/continuing
north torrent
How is Fortnite helping the US spread Communism?
pearl elk
communism is good for everyone
ancient hornet
communism? wtf
pearl elk
nationalism, not so much
ancient hornet
you know what is communism? monopolies
pearl elk
I cant even get a citizenship to go stay in Apple
light spruce
that communism has ever actually existed?
north torrent
China is spreading Authoritarian Capitalism.
light spruce
because that would be a joke
rich quiver
Twitter
pearl elk
so if you could choose, which tech giant would you be?
north torrent
Right now, Huawei.
pearl elk
I'll go with Sony even though Im a Samsung fanboi 😛
light spruce
I wouldn't willingly adopt any of that baggage
north torrent
China's economy is back working... puts Huawei in a better spot than companies that rely on US sells when everyone in the US is unemployed and not buying fancy cellphones.
pearl elk
Maybe I should said you have to choose
north torrent
Samsung relies too much on US sales.
bronze axle
Sounds like this Epic v Apple thing is getting out of hand.
pearl elk
lol pun not intended?
pearl elk
smart phones go in hand
bronze axle
Oh hahah.
north torrent
Sounds more like Apple trying to test that authority of the US government and their resolve to stop monopoly activities.
bronze axle
Well, sometimes puns just fall out of my mouth.
Monopoly activities don't need to be stopped. They're not illegal.
light spruce
Much like a smartphone falls out of your hand and into the toilet
north torrent
I'm too lazy to pull up the law, so I'll let you keep believing that.
bronze axle
At least mine is water resistent.
pearl elk
mine just whinges about the power plug being wet
bronze axle
@north torrent It's called the Sherman Act. Monopolies only become illegal if it is found that they were established or maintained through abusive or improper conduct.
light spruce
I'm trying to decide if I want to go get something to eat. And also if I'm going to buy liquor.
north torrent
Thanks for proving my point, Mr. Pfist.
pearl elk
Id consider lying to congress improper conduct
bronze axle
The existence of illegal monopolies does not imply that all of them are illegal.
ancient hornet
a monopoly isn't illegal, it's the actions you do when you have one that are
light spruce
Yeah. It's a pretty important difference.
plucky pagoda
I like that Rider automatically configures exceptions for windows defender. it took me a long time with UE to figure out that was causing a lot of the slow downs.
bronze axle
A very important difference in the court of law.
north torrent
I'm just simply saying that Apple is breaking the law and testing the government to see if they will stop it.
2nd graders do this to me all the time to test and see if I will enforce a rule in the classroom.
pearl elk
I think the issue is Apple wanted the best of both worlds
bronze axle
@north torrent The court will decide if Apple is breaking the law, I suppose.
pearl elk
A walled garden is fine if youre the exclusive lambo only you and your rich friends can afford, not so much when youre like tesla a large automaker making cars for everyone
ancient hornet
Apple supposedly has close to 60% of the smartphone market in the US
light spruce
I don't understand the analogy. Because it turned into "company that's run like shit by a fuckup" at the end
ancient hornet
that's a lot
plucky pagoda
Idk, I'm still on the fence about where this will go. Both have good arguments, but I'm leaning towards Apple will win this.
bronze axle
Same. Epic will have a difficult time proving their case.
pearl elk
Ive still not seen a good argument for Apple except pointing at the contract and say just cuz
plucky pagoda
I was surprised they shut down all Epic dev accounts though.
sage tendon
Does Apple allow competing stores on the iOS/ does Google allow competing stores on Android?
north torrent
If you are one of 10 stores in a shopping mall and you want to be selective about the stuff in your store, that isn't at all a problem.
If you are one of 2 stores in a town and you and the other store have an unwritten agreement that you will both raise your prices and get rich because nobody can do anything about it... well, that's a problem.
bronze axle
@plucky pagoda As I understand it, they haven't done that yet but are threatening to.
light spruce
No. Yes, but not preinstalled if you're going to have access to Play services
bronze axle
Still collecting info. Social media is rife with misinformed commentary.
plucky pagoda
Oh, there was a post a bit ago said they had.
pearl elk
Epic are only filing for injunctive relief too this isnt even a full blown thing, Apple are the ones getting all pissy
plucky pagoda
I need to check sources I guess
bronze axle
@north torrent Apple has never raised their revenue share.
I don't think Google has, either.
north torrent
I won't raise the price on your cheeseburger, I will just give you half the meat.
Win win for everyone... except for you.
bronze axle
That's a non-sequitur. Or I just don't understand what your metaphor is referencing.
north torrent
I am not focused enough on Discord right now to put together a well thought out point, so that is my fault.
rich quiver
Twitter
light spruce
There are two ways you can look at Epic's strategy... either they did it the worst way possible by deliberately violating the terms of their agreement.... or it was a smart play because it baited Apple into enforcing their policies inside their agreement.
ancient hornet
Just over two weeks ago, Apple’s CEO Tim Cook was asked during a Congressional hearing whether Apple has “ever retaliated against or disadvantaged a developer who went public about their frustrations with the App Store”. Mr. Cook testified, “We do not retaliate or bully people. It’s strongly against our company culture.”
bronze axle
@north torrent Fair enough. 😄
bronze axle
@light spruce I'm on the fence right now, but honestly I'm leaning towards this not being a great approach. Their message is that Apple banned them and is being unfair, but they planned to get banned. The PR campaign portion of this strategy won't be a good look in court. 😦
sage tendon
I think it will go in the direction that no one is allowed to offer competing stores trough the traditional way to obtain software in iOS/Android (through Apple Store and Google Play), and if people want it they will have to jump through "less easy ways" to install them
bronze axle
@north torrent Discord is really good at distracting people. 😅
ancient hornet
I think they needed "damages" from Apple for their lawsuit
light spruce
A subtle, but important difference: People voicing their complaints resulting in retaliation versus taking explicitly defined action against a deliberate violation of an agreement
north torrent
No, I meant the people throwing rope darts covered in fire is distracting.
ancient hornet
arguing about potential damages would be much harder than if they flat out removed Fortnite
pearl elk
So because Epic had no other choice that looks bad for Epic?
north torrent
Just YouTube 'rope dart fire' and you will see what I mean.
pearl elk
What did you expect them to do, just quietly file against the largest company in the world?
light spruce
@bronze axle Yeah, that's where I'm at. I think it was a phenomenally fucking dumb decision.
ancient hornet
and now Apple is adding more damage into the fire
bronze axle
@pearl elk I hope you're not suggesting Epic had no choice but to deliberately violate the guidelines and produce an ad campaign assuming they would get banned for it.
pearl elk
Apple wouldnt negotiate dude
bronze axle
It was a calculated risk on Epic's part.
light spruce
They could have filed whatever lawsuit they wanted to without violating the terms of their agreement
rich quiver
more companies will likely sue apple for this
since there contract will be force to over with apple
carmine frigate
the odds of fortnite starting WW3 is now 10%
pearl elk
Yes they did it on purpose but they had to raise PR to even get a tiny amount of support. Apple just gets support by default, I dunno maybe they are awesome I dont use their products enough
ancient hornet
pretty sure Epic wanted visible "damage" from Apple to add to the lawsuit as I said
so they probably felt like they needed something big like that
bronze axle
Apple gets support by default? Bashing on Apple is practically a sanctioned sport.
pearl elk
Yeah but whos the channel owner
Bashing any company is sport, people do it to Epic too
bronze axle
I agree there are parties involved that are more likely to support Apple, but to say they "get support by default" compared to Epic is just silly.
pearl elk
Its an UE channel so sure there is bias here
bronze axle
Of course. Always need to consider that.
pearl elk
Apple however have far more customers than Epic
light spruce
It's an action that will most likely not play in their favor if/when it goes to court
bronze axle
Oh, when you said "channel owner" were you referring to me? Is Unreal Slackers the "channel" in this statement? If so I completely missed that.
pearl elk
Steve Jobs is like Gabe Newell he's just seen as this godly status and could do no wrong, sure we know the truth but it doesnt matter. Apple fans like Apple with a hard passion no matter what any of those critics say
Epic on the other hand we are already seeing where peoples loyalties are when it comes down to it
ancient hornet
Epic bothered the Valve fans and now they got a few dedicated antifans against them
pearl elk
Ive seen people put other companies before Epic time and time again, sure Epic fuck up but I honestly believe they are doing what they think is right. I dont think that of Apple for one second even if the law is on their side
sometimes doing the right thing isnt doing the right thing
ancient hornet
Apple is seeing their hardware revenue falter and want to replace that with a big pie of the software revenue
what best to do that than to tax EVERYTHING 30%
light spruce
the same amount they've done since they started?
ancient hornet
and if that's not enough, they just need to make their own solution that way they get 100% + 30% of the poor fools that stayed on the old provider
pearl elk
and just an FYI there wouldnt have been a USA without a revolution
ancient hornet
Apple can keep their App Store but they should never have been allowed to benefit from it themselves by selling apps and services there
split time!
I feel like internet discourse is far too "team" oriented nowadays :/
carmine frigate
is there allready a southpark with tim sweeney in it? 🙂
ancient hornet
people leave their critical thinking at the door and just cheer on their team
light spruce
most people don't have critical thinking skills
It's something that you have to learn which is a lot harder when no one bothers to teach it.
fathom wadi
@ancient hornet critical thinking on the internet is a rare commodity.
carmine frigate
@bronze axle mayB remove the macos channel ? 🙂
ancient hornet
I think that's why social media degenerates
it takes far too much energy to teach people critical thinking before you even start to argue against them XD
light spruce
social media is dog shit on a plate
ancient hornet
so you start at a massive disadvantage
fringe sundial
seeing the fuckepic crowd actually defending apple here is completely insane
damn tribalists
light spruce
and the plate is also just made out of more dog shit
pearl elk
I dont actually see many people bashing Apple tbh
ancient hornet
I was thinking about the EGS on smartphones
how you could buy a game on a phone, then migrate to the other and still have it
pearl elk
Its mostly Epic bash bash bash but they have a point
ancient hornet
no wonder Google and Apple don't want that
in the short time, what I would love to see
is the courts forcing Apple to keep Epic and Fortnite 😄
I mean, even if Epic loses in the end, it could happen
I mean forcing to keep those while the lawsuit is going on
pearl elk
I just made it easy, Epic gives me free shit, Apple doesnt therefore, Epic wins! My logic is undeniable!
light spruce
is someone actually defending apple somewhere or is just not blindly saying "Epic is 100% in the right" qualifying as that?
fringe sundial
epic store in phones would actually be an absolutely MASSIVE improvement for everyone
because that store likely wouldnt be absolute dogshit like play store is
play store is SEO-d to death
plucky pagoda
did they start a bidding war to include a costume in the game? If so, that's genius.
fringe sundial
so is apple one
ancient hornet
I see a lot of defending Apple in :
- resetera (god that place turned into a cesspool it seems oO)
- even Hackernews
light spruce
I took "here" to mean literally here in this location
rich quiver
is for good cause @plucky pagoda
plucky pagoda
Yeah,
pearl elk
ResetEra was always a cesspool, it was born from one 😛
ancient hornet
seems Hackernews has quite a substantial population that embraced the Walled Garden as a pure convenience. Giving up their liberty for some meager benefits
plucky pagoda
It's cool.
ancient hornet
ResetEra had a semblance of discussion before, I stopped reading it a year ago or so and just checked their stance
rich quiver
@pearl elk yet there a lot devs from the industry there
ancient hornet
it's ugly now 😄
pearl elk
Theres devs from the industry everywhere
oblique trellis
2020 just keeps on giving doesnt it...my first computer experiences were scarred by apples hardware policys
pearl elk
I cant be friends with everyone 🙂
plucky pagoda
There's a big draw to the perceived security the closed environment provides.
light spruce
I can't be friends with anyone
ancient hornet
heck I bet a lot of people hate Epic even long before they announced EGS or so
just because they made Fortnite the game for kids 😄
and they felt it was "in" to hate Fortnite
light spruce
I wouldn't call that racism
ancient hornet
I think Tencent comes in because people look for any irrational reason to validate their hate and invent things from there
light spruce
It's not people caring that the people are Chinese... it's the Chinese government aspect
ancient hornet
you cannot tell them "Tim is the Epic dictator and Tencent has no real power" they all act as if the CCP implanted a mind control chip in the whole Epic company
pearl elk
Yeah but who cares about the people aye, Apple surely doesnt care about those developers
rich quiver
👀
ancient hornet
Epic hired https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_A._Varney btw if I'm not wrong
light spruce
Epic shot first.
rich quiver
correct @ancient hornet
bronze axle
As if they weren't in negotiations for months leading up to this.
rich quiver
@bronze axle with google ,apple and valve
pearl elk
they simply said no
rich quiver
and the consoles at some point
light spruce
You're also allowed to say no.
rich quiver
all of them ignore tim
pearl elk
okay so Epic are wrong
lets all stop using UE
cmon back it up
Difference is Epic didnt force anyone to be here so leave
solid aurora
Consoles are bit different matter
as they are luxury items
while smartphones are like Pcs
light spruce
They're in the wrong on choosing to violate their agreement and having their developer account(s) terminated as a result of it. I haven't said they were ever wrong in the general sense regarding a monopoly or anticompetitive behavior
solid aurora
utilities
pearl elk
Its not an agreement if you have no choice
contracts are typically negotiated by two parties not dictated
bronze axle
For legal purposes, if Epic signed the agreement, it's an agreement.
Epic is challenging the agreement.
pearl elk
If you sign a contract under duress its null
ancient hornet
Apple seems to have come at Epic with every possible violation of the agreement it could find. The company cites not just the “Epic direct payment” feature — which kicked off this whole conflict — but also a lack of descriptiveness in Fortnite’s app update notes, saying it used too much of a “generic statement.” Apple sent its warning letter on August 14th, giving Epic until August 28th to make the changes.
carmine frigate
didnt they just press agree like every1 else?
pearl elk
Not all contracts are legal
light spruce
That's not even remotely accurate to this situation
ancient hornet
so Apple can kill your company because you make not too descriptive patch notes 😄
pearl elk
yes it is, Epic didnt sign the thing willingly they signed it because they had no other choice
its a contract of adhesion right
which means it sticks to you just for simply being there
light spruce
They had the choice to not do business with that company
pearl elk
you dont even have to click I agree
ancient hornet
60% of the mobile apps market goes through the AppStore
bronze axle
@pearl elk Good luck proving in court that Epic didn't sign their developer agreements willingly.
ancient hornet
monopoly position => they cannot use that power "for evil"
plucky pagoda
It would be naive to think this wouldn't have implications for consoles.
pearl elk
Its all good, Im going
ancient hornet
the company that gatekeeps 60% of the app store money transaction 😉
pearl elk
its clear theres no Epic love here
bronze axle
It's a heated debate, I get that. But if you feel the heat coming, step away for a moment. Works like a charm.
bronze axle
The only thing that's clear is your fervent dislike of Apple.
stiff crystal
all contracts where we have to pay more than we want to should be illegal 
pearl elk
yes I dislike Apple is my right
bronze axle
I agree.
stiff crystal
Epic is going to lose this, lets just hope UE users will not have to suffer about this in the longer run
pearl elk
I apologize for the attitude
thorny dock
don't worry, sony will bail us out
pearl elk
If Epic lose this its no good for any of us
ancient hornet
I don't think Epic is going to lose, well I don't have a big certainty
pearl elk
it sets a precedent for all large companies like Apple to do whatever they want
plucky pagoda
I don't know. I can see it having negative conseuqunces if they win.
It's complicated.
pearl elk
if you cant see that you dont deserve my time
ancient hornet
I just think that governments should have done that lawsuits themselves already
stiff crystal
I don't really see any reason why Epic would win this
ancient hornet
well, they are actually lawsuits in progress already sooo
stiff crystal
we all hate the 30% split but that's not the point
ancient hornet
Epic would win this if Apple is declared an illegal monopoly
bronze axle
If Epic wins, it may set a precedent for pushing out walled garden business models. As Mike said, it's complicated and this goes both ways.
ancient hornet
at that point the rules change for them and they get VERY limited in which market decisions they can make
plucky pagoda
What does it do to the console market?
stiff crystal
Apple has invested on their hardware too
like console manufacturers have on theirs
ancient hornet
Apple gets more than twice their money from selling hardware rather than software
stiff crystal
if consoles had open market, consoles would cost WAY more
ancient hornet
it's very beneficial by itself already
stiff crystal
probably, but it's still their own ecosystem
plucky pagoda
I mean do consoles even need to exist anymore?
ancient hornet
it's like saying the railways were your own and if you don't like our conditions you can just let your stuff rot in a warehouse
gilded lichen
I don't get it.
stiff crystal
of course consoles need to exist
plucky pagoda
Why when everything they do can be done with a PC?
light spruce
Consoles are subsidized hardware.
stiff crystal
Epic breached Apple terms on purpose
gilded lichen
Was it a bad move?
stiff crystal
play stupid games...
light spruce
That generally just work when you plug them in
ancient hornet
Consoles are subsidized hardware in their first years or so
the R&D costs need to be paid back somewhere
carmine frigate
lol what RND?
plucky pagoda
But if they have to allow third party distribution they can't subsidize them anymore.
ancient hornet
and once selling hardware starts to be very profitable, it's usually when a new generation needs to come out and the cycle repeats
light spruce
They also ... well, were a defined target for a developer.
ancient hornet
and the market is very split
carmine frigate
itss all AMD not RND 😛
ancient hornet
as long as a specific consoles doesn't get too dominant for a long duration with no way out in sight
I don't think many will come after them
north torrent
The less Epic invests in Apple related development the better it is for me. They can spend that time developing more tools for AAA game development and not silly iPhone tools and mobile development.
ancient hornet
as someone that doesn't want Unreal Engine future to be bleak
light spruce
The ol' "It doesn't directly apply to me so it's useless" mentality
ancient hornet
I'd rather not have Epic play the martyr
but there aren't many companies as well suited as them in the current landscape to do that against a 2 trillion behemoth
the comments are surprisingly anti Apple
seems a lot of people there are fed up with Apple behavior, the Stadia/xCloud ban was kind of the last straw
light spruce
(to be perfectly honest, I don't think anyone really noticed or cared about Stadia in this instance)
gilded lichen
What was with the stadia and xcloud? Apple banned them?
wintry cliff
This is such a big flex on Apple's part. Scare tactic at the highest order.
rich quiver
yes @gilded lichen
ancient hornet
yes, officially because "they cannot review the games there and for security"
unofficially because no way they could get their 30% share of such a service 😄
gilded lichen
Why do people even use apple? Overpriced crap
plucky pagoda
I don't see it as a flex at all. They had two choices either give in immediately to Epic or enforce their TOS. I doubt anyone reasonably expected them to just give in.
light spruce
Yes. the "scare tactic" is "if you violate the agreement that you agreed to, we will take action, up to and including terminating your developer account."
gilded lichen
I hope that Epic will not give in, also it's interesting that short before the violation Sony had some agreements with Epic.
plucky pagoda
I don't want to read too much into that. But Sony's made some abysmally poor decisions lately with their consoles. Wasted what should have been an easy top spot.
ancient hornet
them removing access to UE4 dev is clearly retaliatory in nature
it has nothing to do with Fortnite itself
light spruce
If you choose to flagrantly violate an agreement and throw up two middle fingers, you know damn well what's going to happen with anyone
carmine frigate
i think tencent is goin to completely destroy apple 😛
ancient hornet
what if the agreement was written in a way that everyone was infringing on it really? 😛
light spruce
Then that would be a court matter that wouldn't change the current status.
It's also not about a violation of one specific piece of software. It's about a violation done by the corporate entity.
wintry cliff
Unreal Engine did not violate their terms and services. Fortnite did. We're not Epic Games.
We did not violate their TOS
But now we pay the price.
ancient hornet
it remains to be seen exactly how it will impact UE4 though
wintry cliff
That's the scare tactic
stiff crystal
the point is that Epic violated the terms
meaning they can cut Epic's dev accounts off
light spruce
So... the "scare tactic" being ... if you don't follow what you agreed to, you will also have your account removed?
stiff crystal
not your apple dev accounts
you can still keep developing for Mac and iOS
but it's going to be hard if Epic is permanently cut of the Apple ecosystem
as they can't give support anymore
frankly, I don't really see anything wrong what Apple does here
Epic literally breached the terms on purpose
ancient hornet
some different company can probably pick up the slack for that, you'll just have to contract them
wintry cliff
Twitter
ancient hornet
like you can pay some people for Godot console support
unless Apple is trying to ban UE4 from iOS
wintry cliff
Looks like that's what they're doing lol
stiff crystal
so it would die
gilded lichen
But they threatened to do it
stiff crystal
it's kinda same case as with Improbable and Unity few years ago
gilded lichen
What would die? IOS or Epic?
stiff crystal
where Unity cut off Improbable's Unity accounts but not Improbable's clients access
slow gyro
iOS Support on UE
plucky pagoda
Oh...
stiff crystal
telling people can use SpatialOS with Unity but it would have been impossible since the SpatialOS devs didn't have access to Unity
plucky pagoda
The filing linked in that post above from today.
ancient hornet
that's a little different I feel, iOS support "only" needs an adjusted renderer and binding some API stuff
light spruce
Well, they actually could effectively ban any UE4-built product if they actually wanted to since they control the guidelines. But it wouldn't gain them anything.
ancient hornet
most of the core engine dev would be somewhat architecture agnostic
plucky pagoda
"It told Epic that by
August 28, Apple will cut off Epic’s access to all development tools necessary to create software
for Apple’s platforms—including for the Unreal Engine Epic offers to third-party developers,
which Apple has never claimed violated any Apple policy. "
gilded lichen
What is the date of the court session?
plucky pagoda
That's filed with the court today.
wintry cliff
Yup
gilded lichen
What is the court day?
light spruce
It won't see court for a long time, if ever
plucky pagoda
No more IOS with UE.
ancient hornet
you can have preliminary injunctions that will force Apple to keep Fortnite and/or UE4 if needed
even if the court itself happens much later
plucky pagoda
That's unless the court grants an injunction.
ancient hornet
no way
slow gyro
That would be the worst they can do
light spruce
Realistically, they would have someone else maintain whatever needed to be maintained to keep the base engine and tools in compliance
ancient hornet
third party company doing the iOS port/support of UE4
carmine frigate
dunno if its Tim 😛
gilded lichen
I like this
plucky pagoda
Of course it is.
slow gyro
:P It has to be Tim, he still owns that company
stiff crystal
that's just shady af 😄
light spruce
You don't even need another company to do it
slow gyro
And he often enough wrote how much he hated the forced iOS store
carmine frigate
yea, he is not a lawyer tho
slow gyro
Correct, but he has the money to pay one lol
wintry cliff
https://twitter.com/FairyTypeAlex/status/1295450642857820163?s=20 this may not be the meme section but this perfectly sums it up.
slow gyro
Enough people follow that argument, sadly
carmine frigate
so he bought a plan 😛
stiff crystal
they could just give megagrants to some 3rd party company to maintain iOS & MacOS support and have them submit voluntary PRs
carmine frigate
wasnt actually planning it 😛
slow gyro
idk what that even matters :D
Fact is that this, with all the video stuff they did etc. was not a "Oh f*ck didn't expect that." story
carmine frigate
they expected something to happen
light spruce
No, they knewwhat would happen
ancient hornet
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/221796616653373441/745017850401652776/unknown.png
this is basically Epic saying :
- look how the customer benefits!
- apple cuts them
- lawsuit => this harms the customers
slow gyro
Right, they rolled a dice the morning before updating the app 🤦♂️
light spruce
And that's why I think it undermines their argument
ancient hornet
they might need that kind of argument for the lawsuit so they had to take a hit
btw, how many Apple Arcade games use UE4? 😛
slow gyro
That probably also goes hand in hand with a custom store planned for iOS and Android, right?
ancient hornet
I so want to see that so that I can port my games between the two universes 😢
slow gyro
Wouldn't even be mad... the Mobile Stores are full of garbage.
light spruce
It's a bad one. Because it puts them in the position of starting off as having deliberately violated the agreement. Not just taking it to court and making their arguments about the contract itself
dull sparrow
Is there a way to show you're using UE4 with your status on Discord? Like Spotify and Steam games?
slow gyro
Godot, with its massive Platform support
carmine frigate
im goin blender game engine 😛
slow gyro
Def 10/10
median wraith
How dare you
fathom wadi
Twitter
ivory swallow
Wasn't Blender game engine discontinued ?
ancient hornet
yes
fathom wadi
yeah
carmine frigate
ill use an old build 🙂
fathom wadi
You can still make a game in Blender tho funnily enough
ancient hornet
I found the best internet comment of the day :D
If Epic thinks that Apple's and Google's store conditions are onerous, just wait until they find out what it's like to ship a game on PS4 or XBox.
fathom wadi
yeah trash will support trash right? 😄
fathom wadi
After all the complaining hes done over the years at Epic? Im not surprised tbh 😄
slow gyro
If Epic would win this and we could have custom payment etc. then it would be nicer for everyone, even for Godot users
plucky pagoda
oh, I found an awesome tool for Blender yesterday
median wraith
I'm in middle point of the desert don't support A and don't support B
carmine frigate
is it the sculpt brush?
plucky pagoda
slow gyro
Yet you are posting "funny" shit against UE..
plucky pagoda
It's sort of like spriter but for grease pencil
ivory swallow
Whether you like Epic or not doesn't really matter tbh, you can't defend Apple as a user/dev
median wraith
I'm posting funny shit against EU ?
fathom wadi
@plucky pagoda nice
ivory swallow
(not speaking to someone here, just ranting about twitter fanboys etc)
fringe sundial
Blender game engine was garbage literally from day 1 lmao
not once in its entire history was it anything other than shit
fathom wadi
the day I found out Apple have a child labout lawsuit, I was totally against them. Especially as it's not the first lawsuit or the first time they have done it. This whole deal is just icing on my smug cake 😄
median wraith
well lets be honest Blender Game Engine were a decent tool to learn back when no one of the other engines were public
plucky pagoda
Idk anything about that but being able to work on 2D and 3D animation in it is gaining it some traction in animation circles.
ancient hornet
there were a lot of public engines to chose from though
plucky pagoda
Not the game engine from it but as an animation tool
fathom wadi
Eevee can still render some nice scenes and with python being the underlying code, with enough tools to grab keypresses, you can still use it. Might not be able to package it without some external work but it would be possible.
slow gyro
I honestly don't care much about Epic violating stuff or not. I'm more interested in not having to pay Apple 30% if I release something for iOS and earn money with it.
Same for Android.
rare sparrow
I was against Apple the day they made my iPod useless through an iOS update
carmine frigate
just ship the blend file 🙂
fathom wadi
@rare sparrow remember when they forced you to own U2's album? That was greeeaaaat
plucky pagoda
I'd like to see those fees come down too. 30% is insane.
rare sparrow
I think this was before that stuff
light spruce
Unfortunately, whether you care about it or not, it's going to be a part of the court case.
fathom wadi
ah
plucky pagoda
You couldn't even remove it from your library for a long time.
slow gyro
Unfortunately, whether you care about it or not, it's going to be a part of the court case.
Yes, but that's not what I mean.
rare sparrow
Basically, my iPod couldn't even launch the settings app without crashing, let alone the app store
ivory swallow
30% is somewhat understandable for consoles since they usually sell hardware at loss. But for phones it's not the case
median wraith
If in here I put dust out of the bucket pointing other solutions and in other channels I point UE4 then I bet I'm doing an equality job, that the one is locked by one of then cannot see ?
But is always fun how the people remember the negative points isn't it Cedric
sharp wolf
So if i understand this correctly, anyone who is developing for Apple, will not be able to release on apple iOS because the license to "build" in UE4 to iOS is planning on being revoked.
carmine frigate
dont think consoles sold at a loss last gen
slow gyro
30% is somewhat understandable for consoles since they usually sell hardware at loss. But for phones it's not the case
Honestly, just the option to sell on a lesser known third party store would be nice. Like, on PC you can choose to not use Steam (or Microsoft store for all it matters).
light spruce
GOG4life
slow gyro
On Android you can do that too, but then you have this annoying "Trust external sources" stuff that users have to click
carmine frigate
yea consoles need homebrew
slow gyro
I'm always surprised when I see N64 Emulators on GooglePlay in the Top Sold Apps section
light spruce
old games on a phone?
plucky pagoda
Consoles have homebrew
light spruce
Christ... the shit is hard enough to play on an actual machine
rare sparrow
It did seem like Microsoft wanted to do that with the Windows Store for a while there. Glad they've backtracked since then
median wraith
On my side I had the same amount of jobs from UE4 and others engines, so isn't clear to me why I have to support Unreal Engine right now ?
As they never did ?
light spruce
"Hope you have a full size keyboard, because half the game requires every single function key, and the other half requires the entire numeric keypad"
ancient hornet
yes pretty sure, it's their style
fringe sundial
mayority of their games just run Dosbox
or similar
so you can slam it on a ios version of dosbox
plus the emulators
fathom wadi
fringe sundial
emulators and JITs are banned from apple store
fathom wadi
lol really?
fringe sundial
@fathom wadi yes
ancient hornet
they are yes
fringe sundial
all JIT and emulators are completely banned
fathom wadi
that is ridiculous but oh well 😄
fringe sundial
apple being apple
fathom wadi
their house right?
wintry cliff
Oof that fluid solver is amazing.
fringe sundial
a lot of categories of things are completely banned
there is a goddamn reason people jailbreak iphones
light spruce
banning emulators isn't remotely surprising considering the issue of copyright
median wraith
@slow gyro Anyway is kind of funny that I came back this chat after half year and you come with that, must have a good amount of black fluids hidden there
north torrent
Lets all just go move over to using Lumberyard.
As of August 18th, 2020 Lumberyard is now the industry standard game engine. Māo has spoken.
light spruce
depends on if it requires the bios code
ivory swallow
Didn't they delay a recent game made with Lumberyard ?
ancient hornet
Google doesn't ban emulators
slow gyro
@median wraith Didn't know you were gone?
wintry cliff
New World, it actually looks good.
ancient hornet
someone should tell them they are doing something illegal 😛
light spruce
That's been the issue with them in the past... "Here's our emulator ... but.. you're totally on your own finding the system bios you need to make it run because we didn't rewrite all of it"
foggy widget
it isn't clear how this affects third party Unreal developers. Does anyone have anything factual on how this affects studios using Unreal Engine and plan to release to iOS?
wintry cliff
You won't be able to.
light spruce
that's not true
plucky pagoda
The filing says they won't have access to the tools to update the engine for IOS
ivory swallow
It's not yet applied I think, they gave 2 weeks
foggy widget
the verbiage so far is not clear
light spruce
It's not clear, which is precisely why you have people saying you won't be able to shit UE4 developed games on iOS anymore. And that's not correct.
ivory swallow
Better wait for an official statement once it'll be applied or not imo
foggy widget
agreed.
plucky pagoda
" Then when Epic sued Apple to break its
monopoly on app stores and in-app payments, Apple retaliated ferociously. It told Epic that by
August 28, Apple will cut off Epic’s access to all development tools necessary to create software
for Apple’s platforms—including for the Unreal Engine Epic offers to third-party developers,
which Apple has never claimed violated any Apple policy. Not content simply to remove
Fortnite from the App Store, Apple is attacking Epic’s entire business in unrelated areas."
ivory swallow
Cause there's a lot of misinfo going on
light spruce
Well, with that typo, I'm going to argue that you should never be allowed to shit UE4 anywhere.
plucky pagoda
That's directly quoted from Epic's filing made today.
ivory swallow
welp
light spruce
What that means is that at some point in the future, if enough things changed, someone would have to make engine-level compliance changes. None of that means you can't ship right now.
plucky pagoda
" If the Unreal Engine can no
longer support Apple platforms, the software developers that use it will be forced to use
alternatives. The damage to Epic’s ongoing business and to its reputation and trust with its
customers will be unquantifiable and irreparable. Preliminary injunctive relief is necessary to
prevent Apple from crushing Epic before this case could ever get to judgment. "
light spruce
Yes. I can read. That's precisely what you would say as part of a court filing.
Something that frequently fails to represent reality in any way
wintry cliff
Lol
plucky pagoda
More for the people saying it wasn't clear.
foggy widget
I agree with whomever said we just need to wait for the official statement from Epic
wintry cliff
That I believe is the official statement.
slow gyro
Well, this is more or less the "official" statement for now
plucky pagoda
It doesn't get much more official than a legal filing.
foggy widget
*to its users, not the filing
wintry cliff
Ah okay.
slow gyro
The only thing you can wait on is the result
foggy widget
I have faith in Sweeney, he knows what he's doing
ivory swallow
It'll become active (or not) in 2 weeks though
foggy widget
we just may have to take a few to the chin for a little while
wintry cliff
He def is a smart dude.
carmine frigate
filing: we are all goin to die!! to the users: epic is doin great!
light spruce
Let me translate then: "At some point, we won't be able to update the engine in order to comply with any new policies or APIs"
ancient hornet
- new policy : Tim name is banned from developer lists
foggy widget
well, i can definitely see antitrust start to file if apple decides to punish USERS of unreal engine, not epic's games or products from being sold on iOS
ivory swallow
What big UE4 games are there on IOS except Fortnite ? I'm not a mobile gamer at all
PUBG I guess ?
wintry cliff
yeah
slow gyro
I'm not so much in the Mobile Dev zone, but don't you need special toolsets and shizzle to even compile and package for iOS?
wintry cliff
PUBG Mobile and Lineage II in South Korea
light spruce
But that doesn't immediately destroy the ability to ship something to iOS nor does it mean that someone else can't do the necessary pull requests to keep the engine in compliance
ancient hornet
isn't the new Beneath a Steel Sky UE4?
light spruce
That's part of being an Apple Developer. That's always been on you.
foggy widget
i mean, UE abstracts hardware and software platforms in its engine, but yes, for iOS< you need Xcode, but other than that, I do not believe you need anything else.
fathom wadi
@ancient hornet Yes it is
ancient hornet
no more iOS port
wintry cliff
I'm not sure about that. It seems like the idea would be to deny the tools to unreal engine and in doing so, if you use the tools in one way or another to ship an unreal engine game it's a violation of the rules.
ancient hornet
maybe no more OSX 😄
fathom wadi
@ancient hornet I was tempted to apply for work on that because it is BASS
light spruce
So you wouldn't be packaging it without the ADC account anyway
dull sparrow
Can anyone recommend a decent level design podcast or series?
ancient hornet
It was released on 26 June 2020 on the Apple Arcade subscription service,
slow gyro
Welp, I'll keep away from Mobile until that is settled :<
We haven't even heard what happens with Android and Google
plucky pagoda
lol
light spruce
What it prevents is them from putting out their other tools like their recent facial capture and virtual camera stuff
fathom wadi
I reckon we should make an installer that acts like an iPhone app, but lets you install UE games on the sly :p
plucky pagoda
You don't need permission to distribute on Android, technically. Google doesn't have the same power except with the playstore.
slow gyro
A UE4 Emulator 😼
wintry cliff
😮
north torrent
All the more reason for someone like Sony to develop a camera to work with the facial capture virtual camera stuff.
A dedicated tool, not a phone.
light spruce
You do realize that they have real people that actually do testing stuff at Apple, right?
wintry cliff
That's the kinda next level thinking that'll get you on Epic's payroll
ivory swallow
@dull sparrow I like that channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wziE0AYCoo&feature=youtu.be&t=208 check his series
Lots of neat stuff
dull sparrow
Oh sweet, cheers @ivory swallow
slow gyro
Just don't use iPhones
ancient hornet
UE4 wasm/webgpu to return to iOS 😄
wintry cliff
I feeeeeel like Epic can win this, and the more Apple does to fight against it the more they'll tarnish their image as a place to release stuff. If other people got into the fight like MS or other engine devs in general it would send a hugee message.
Go Godot people, rally your people.
ivory swallow
There's that Congress action going on too. Not really optimistic but younever know
slow gyro
The Gamers just see their games being stripped from the Store they invested into. There are barely any Gamers that understand what's going on.
For us this is maybe a nice act, but for peeps that just want to play Fortnite.. idk
light spruce
There are barely any developers that understand what's going on
basically because it's a total shitshow with dumbass posturing
carmine frigate
i dont even know what a monopoly is , other than the board game
wintry cliff
Lmao
light spruce
It's on par with cable channel blackout shit
wintry cliff
Do not pass Go, do not collect 200. -Apple, 2020.
light spruce
"You can't watch this channel because BROADCAST COMPANY won't reach an agreement with us."
plucky pagoda
Gamers will never get it. Half the devs out there don't even understand basic copyright let alone antitrust.
carmine frigate
lol
wintry cliff
"Hey cmon, Go is a functional language that" alright calm down. I didn't mean the language.
light spruce
most people don't even know the difference between copyright and trademark
thin storm
imagine microsoft would not allow steam or any other store on the windows os. only the microsoft store. I think thats what epic is going for with that law suit.
carmine frigate
most ppl dont know they get hurt cuz the mass under them is way more than the mass they have
median wraith
@fathom wadi dammit Marc you must be in my team
Jokes aside
yeah If Epic wins it a cut in % is a better deal for every single human bean
fathom wadi
jokes aside? Aww man I thought you were gonna hire me. sadface
wintry cliff
Damnnn that's messed up. Now you HAVE to hire him.
median wraith
In other hand if they win this and the Apple market outside of the USA is minimal, if that don't spread the change will be real minimal
still a change
fathom wadi
yeah I took out a loan and everything
thin storm
Im not a lawyer but I know there are laws that force you to open a market for competitors.
ancient hornet
antitrust laws
median wraith
I expected Google to change their mind back on Android but Epic ended posting the game on the apple store
ancient hornet
the Sherman act that Epic alleges Apple violates is one of such
fathom wadi
not to be confused with antichrist laws, or "trumps executive orders" as they are officially known/.
median wraith
@fathom wadi I thought you were the one will hire me
wintry cliff
whoaaa
median wraith
no, wait what
wintry cliff
reverse psychology.
fathom wadi
dude im broke as shit right now
ancient hornet
the thing is that such antitrust rulings have consequences
median wraith
🤖
ancient hornet
if the judges say Apple needs to be cut
it'll affect the whole world anyway
although it probably won't be that extreme
ancient hornet
but a massive antitrust rulling in the US or in EU usually ends up applying to the whole world
foggy widget
A monopoly means you hold the keys and there is no other for competition
median wraith
@fathom wadi didn't you worked for Epic in the past ?
fathom wadi
nope
fathom wadi
if I worked for Epic in the past, I would still be working for them.
ancient hornet
it just has to be big enough
fathom wadi
its also cuties isnt it?
median wraith
Dammit the spy I hired to spy you lied me then Marc
light spruce
legal definitions matter
plucky pagoda
Yeah, but antitrust is more complicated than a single prefix
ancient hornet
the law doesn't wait until you have a monopoly to apply
plucky pagoda
Oh man apple is giving us mono?
light spruce
"That's why I never kiss 'em on the mouth."
fathom wadi
lol
plucky pagoda
going to microwave my ipads right now
light spruce
median wraith
I will say something pro Epic, this morning I read a crap article that claims they manipulate the kids, nobody said a shit back when Apple did it with their parents
north torrent
light spruce
@fathom wadi I think your joke was lost on the young people
fathom wadi
probably. I dunno. I thought maybe some folk would have brushed up on some Apple history in these trying times.
I actually think the story of Apple is amazing. It's just post-Jobs has been a nightmare
plucky pagoda
I dunno the mono could become swift. Then how would we stop the spread?
fathom wadi
slow dancing
light spruce
the same way we stop covid
plucky pagoda
Oh like with old batteries?
fathom wadi
kill everyone without a mask?
wintry cliff
No more smooches.
north torrent
Contact tracing?
fathom wadi
btw if that happens..... I did not come up with that idea.
median wraith
Jobs and Musk are kinda alike
light spruce
I was expecting a "badly?"
Musk is a lot more public about being a dickhead sociopath though
plucky pagoda
I don't see them as all that alike at all.
Cook is much more reserved and careful.
err my bad , reading fail.
light spruce
there it is
median wraith
@light spruce Jobs didn't had Twitter
plucky pagoda
I skimmed and went straight to Cook.
median wraith
sociopaths actually don't proof it on public
are the coolest
are like lizards using camo
plucky pagoda
Coffee time. A new batch was delivered this morning.
light spruce
What I know is that it's time to go get whiskey, get some whiskey inside of me, and write some shitty code
fathom wadi
true. The sociopath believes in their own lies so much, it has an effect of convincing others unwilling to scrutinize said claims. Classic psychology.
plucky pagoda
Bourbon is better.
light spruce
Bourbon is whiskey
fathom wadi
its a chocolate biscuit in the UK too
plucky pagoda
but whiskey isn't always bourbon.
light spruce
I'm debating cheap versus more Wild Turkey 101
plucky pagoda
They turned my favorite dive bar into a Bourbon bar and I couldn't be happier.
light spruce
I drink in private as god intended alcoholics to do
plucky pagoda
Someone bid 100k already but man I would love to see a bidet win
lol, I love that one
I want to try this,
fathom wadi
Someone just trolled Tim for one of his tweets with a thumbs down, so I said "well fuck your iphone". Turns out it was a retired circuit court judge. Hope it doesn't affect the legal battle 😄
light spruce
seeing whiskey without the e upsets me
plucky pagoda
I'm not sure public opinion is going where they thought it would. Either way I've had all I can take of it and going to just wait and see where it goes.
spending the rest of today working in Adobe Animate.
light spruce
Yeah, I've pretty much had enough of this entire year
highball, three pieces of ice, Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey
Guess there's nothing else left for me to do but work.
light spruce
"sphere cubes" and you work in a 3d engine
plucky pagoda
I thought about putting 100 trees in a $10 market asset and calling it Ten Cent trees.
light spruce
I actually wouldn't even have room for ice trays in my freezer.
I've thought about getting some whiskey stones before, but I think I actually prefer it with a bit of water.
plucky pagoda
Yeah, same but not too much.
I like Maker's Mark chilled with a bit of water and a lime peel twist.
light spruce
the ice maker pukes out those quarter cylinder things
plucky pagoda
Pouring it over a large cube is enough water though
plucky pagoda
It's one of my favs
light spruce
I've pretty well settled on Wild Turkey 101 as being as high end as I'll go
foggy widget
Just moving closer towards zero ownership
light spruce
The problem is that I drink like a fish when I drink.
plucky pagoda
I rarely drink at all anymore and barely finish a single when I do.
light spruce
Doesn't really mix well with remodeling
rich quiver
blame chivalry 2 for that
light spruce
Remember, all the Steam fanboys were totally fine with the concept of store exclusives as long as it was on their preferred platform.
ancient hornet
if Epic cannot sign the MacOS apps anymore
ancient hornet
does it mean it won't be able to provide updates of UE4 for using on OSX to develop apps at all?
fathom wadi
uhuh
fathom wadi
its beautiful. I mean, it's not. It's horrible. (secretly tho im shining inside)
median wraith
Hey decide yourself 🤖
rich quiver
@light spruce steam read the complaints from users and end up making actions
median wraith
Let's remember us all apple dropped support for Vulkan and opengl and released their own thing.
rich quiver
aka users reported Torn Banner, Hi Rez and 505 games for marketing games for others stores
light spruce
I'm pretty sure that anyone developing anything on MacOS isn't going to be blocking unsigned apps
median wraith
What's the market share on you game selling in phone from Apple?
rich quiver
@median wraith Mental api
median wraith
In PC is like a 5%
light spruce
Also, as a point, requiring signed code as a default isn't a bad idea.
ancient hornet
I'm pretty sure people weren't happy about the app notarization thing because of the risk of abuse by Apple but they said it was mostly meant to remove bad actor trojans/viruses
or people they don't like it seems 😄
median wraith
Yesterday reading a web apple isn't even the 1/4 out of usa share
light spruce
Yeah, you don't want it to be the only way you can run applications, for sure
rich quiver
its very high in the US
median wraith
A 14% worldwide without count USA they can go bananas
light spruce
But as a way to keep people who don't know shit from doing something incidentally... it's a good option to have available
ancient hornet
the worldwide marketshare doesn't really matter for the US lawsuit though
median wraith
Yeah I mean the effect is minimal outside of USA
light spruce
The bigger issue with signing things comes down to the authority side of things. See also: HTTPS
rich quiver
yup @median wraith
ancient hornet
supposedly the AppStore has 60% of the worldwide money transaction market things?
median wraith
Here is the richs and kids from richs phones
ancient hornet
but PlayStore was growing slightly faster I think
median wraith
Nobody else get these
But you probably lost the user's that the most money drop to screen
But usually the richs ate the ones the less spend
light spruce
Like when Epic was telling people to sideload stuff on Android I was like .......ehhhhhh... this is on par with the kind of shit you shouldn't be telling your users to do like games that will toss out error messages and/or not run because they want you to go update to some beta graphics driver
median wraith
There was an alike fight with Android and end by them entering the store
Not sure why
ancient hornet
they told us in the lawsuit
ancient hornet
because their deal with OnePlus fell apart due to Google interference
(threatening OnePlus? possible)
Epic in the lawsuit against Google says they are making the OS more and more hostile to sideloaded apps with scary popups, difficulties to autoupdate etc...
I'm pretty sure they caved in to put them in the lawsuit like Apple really
rich quiver
sony investment is most likely the money they use on this lawsuits
light spruce
It's generally not a great recommendation for someone to sideload stuff
The majority of people don't understand any of this sorcery shit that's happening in their glass brick
ancient hornet
but that makes Google the gatekeep in the same dominant position as Apple then
light spruce
And it absolutely should go, "Hey, this might not be a great idea. Are you sure you want to be doing this?"
I think the important difference is that you still can do it
ancient hornet
which is how the OnePlus deal would have solved that
light spruce
But I don't think it's a good practice in general to tell a bunch of people to do that
ancient hornet
by having the launcher part of the base install, it gets the permissions it needs
light spruce
I really feel like they've made a lot of their arguments in just the worst way possible
proud pier
It's basically the same as Apple
carmine frigate
how is sideloading diffrent from just installing some random exe on pc?
proud pier
Google isn't as bad though
ancient hornet
I think they wanted to show "harm to the customers"
so them offering visible that 20% rebate to customers
then have Google and Apple shutdown the program
light spruce
Okay, check this.
ancient hornet
=> they are acting against the interests of the customers => Sherman Act
proud pier
But... how they did it, was against known rules
light spruce
"You have manufactured harm to the users by violating the terms of our agreement"
carmine frigate
id like to see consoles close epic to their devtools 😛
now that would be something
light spruce
how you do things matters
ancient hornet
manufactured harm? there was no harm until they removed the app 😛
proud pier
Well, I'm a little surprised (or not) that the case isn't against everyone doing 30%, only mobile right now
light spruce
Exactly. They deliberately created those conditions
That would be the immediate and obvious counterargument
ancient hornet
Epic pretty much said that consoles are sold for far too little in the base price as an investment to get an install base so that software can sell
carmine frigate
mayB they were able to negotiate for consoles
ancient hornet
and console makers do a lot of R&D to help game devs and prepare the next console generation
light spruce
That's why I say they've taken a number of paths that undermine their stated goals
proud pier
and console makers do a lot of R&D to help game devs and prepare the next console generation
@ancient hornet apple doesn;t?
ancient hornet
and anyway, if they don't feel the consoles harm them, someone else uses their money to sue them really
ancient hornet
apple is close to 2 trillion in valuation and the AppStore gives very few benefits outside of cryptic app refusals compared to a console I guess 🙂
proud pier
What I mean is, Apple pays a crapton of money for R&D for each phone
Google doesn't
Other than Pixels
You can make almost any type of Android phone with very little restrictions
ancient hornet
and Apple sells the phones for a mega markup compared to fabrication price
median wraith
That's funny others says Jobs let gave them wrote about what they have to release
ancient hornet
consoles not so much
proud pier
ALL PHONE MANUFACTERS DO though
fathom wadi
ancient hornet
but a PS5 isn't a phone 😛
median wraith
Anyway what las apple products added other than release obs upgraded parts?
proud pier
@fathom wadi lolololo
ancient hornet
and Epic doesn't sue phone makers, it sues Google the PlayStore gatekeeper
proud pier
That's why people call them "Corridor Shooters" now
fathom wadi
aye. Was just reading DocSquiddy's latest article and saw it then lol'd
proud pier
link to article?
carmine frigate
R&D on both console and phone is just a tiny fraction of what marketing gets
fathom wadi
about 8000 words or so
light spruce
If you think it's really that simple you seriously lack an understanding of... all kinds of things
carmine frigate
seriously lack an understanding of... all kinds of things... thats prolly me 🙂
i dont count market research as actual research btw
light spruce
I pretty definitely need to get out of this before I have a goddamned aneurysm.
fathom wadi
median wraith
Nice, the end is each day closer
carmine frigate
yea i have that effect on ppl 😛
plucky pagoda
Is there a better place than google drive to throw up some free templates and stuff for UE? I'm just going to give away some of the stuff I've made rather than deal with the marketplace.
carmine frigate
nah google drive is the best 🙂
could use torrents but it needs ppl that have and share it
plucky pagoda
I was thinking like maybe Gumroad or something like that.
carmine frigate
could also use itch
light spruce
drive is fine as long as it's not so popular that it hits whatever the transfer limit is
carmine frigate
itch and gumroad support donations
but usually ppl dont donate a lot
when they can also get it free
plucky pagoda
Not really worried about getting anything. Just not going to deal with offering support or updating to new engine versions. Just going to put it out there for whoever wants it.
YEah, I guess I'll go with gumroad
light spruce
the problem with the way donation stuff tends to work is that at the time you're asked, you don't really know what value it has
carmine frigate
yea and it only has impact if a lot of ppl do it
so you might aswell not do it, cuz most others wont
plucky pagoda
I love the layers here.
carmine frigate
and its not like streamers when u donate and they say thank you
plucky pagoda
From apple to google to duckduckgo
rich quiver
so they stop buying ads using unity engine key words 
carmine frigate
nah they are just fighting with google atm 😛
rich quiver
unity engine on bing give me ebay but on google give me unity
edgy zenith
ebay?
light spruce
I gave up trying to use DDG
edgy zenith
isn't ddg just a massive twitter smear campagin?
or is it actually trying to be a product?
light spruce
I couldn't get useful results out of it and they don't have enough constraints over date ranges to make it more useful
rich quiver
on yahoo! it give me themis and ebay
carmine frigate
lol yahoo
edgy zenith
I think i had too higher hopes for google stadia
it's like "well they've technically been streaming google docs to us for years"
carmine frigate
what was that other site again? ask steve or something
light spruce
"Ask Steve"
carmine frigate
it got promoted as something u could use entire sentences
plucky pagoda
I'm surprised to see metacrawler is still around
light spruce
"Hey, Steve ... how much horsepower does the new NSX put out?" "Fuck if I know. Probably a lot. Maybe more than the original because it was kinda shit on that front"
Ask Jeeves is what you're thinking of
carmine frigate
if u asked steve personal questions how would say its none of ur business 😛
light spruce
But the idea of Ask Steve is a lot funnier
light spruce
@plucky pagoda is gumroad one of those things that hits you up for money before the download?
carmine frigate
steve just some guy passing links :p
plucky pagoda
Yeah, it asks if you want to give money or soemthing
I've seen a lot of others use it for stuff they don't care about getting money for
carmine frigate
does gum take 30%? 🙂
plucky pagoda
idk, don't care
light spruce
"Hey, Steve, what the fuck, bro?" "Fuck you, man. I've got a case of PBR and a case of diarrhea, no one knows who will win"
carmine frigate
good old 90s internet
fathom wadi
got a clearer version of this now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoD2ZC8-Wqk
light spruce
Granted, I'm not representative of anyone other than me.. but that always makes me feel a bit weird. Because it puts me in that situation of saying, "I think your work is worth nothing." Instead of, "I don't know if this is useful to me or not yet"
plucky pagoda
Saw that earlier. Looks good.
fathom wadi
it's been one of my dreams to have a nice game engine with serious fluid dynamics. No pre-rendered or faked stuff.