lounge

[pearl elk]

lol well played Epic

[delicate lark]

Today, Epic Games took the unfortunate step of violating the App Store guidelines that are applied equally to every developer and designed to keep the store safe for our users.

rofl

[pearl elk]

considering Apples Mac launch remember that?

[fathom wadi]

no I was high back then

[delicate lark]

only way to keep the store safe for our users is to get as much away from devs as possible 😄

[pearl elk]

It was all about how MS were the dictators and Apple was some sort of creative outlet away from the Orwellian nightmare of the suits

[fathom wadi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I

[rich quiver]

this isn't good for epic

[pearl elk]

Epic just mic dropped so hard 😛

or should I say mac dropped

[plucky pagoda]

Honestly, I like that IOS is a closed system but I don't see that allowing payments directly in app would break that. IDK.

If you can already do it with things like burger king and such I don't see why devs can't do it.

[pearl elk]

Apple have enough cash to buy Luxembourg, theyre being petty

[fathom wadi]

Does this mean I can download an Unreal Engine without the Apple plugins build in and loaded immediately now? 😄

[plucky pagoda]

Their cut of the transaction is ridiculous though.

[ancient hornet]

Apple has that much cash BECAUSE they tax the whole planet 30%

if they cut that tax now, they'll have, gasp, less money!

[bronze axle]

Agreed. The integration of iOS is a strength in my eyes, but Apple's policies around in-app purchases and the 30% cut are very stubborn and outdated. And frankly, they've been very dishonest as of late. Tim lied multiple times in the recent antitrust hearing.

[fathom wadi]

Remember when they didn't pay tax in many countries? Great corporation for the people that 😄

[ancient hornet]

they took the "for security" angle

let's see how it turns out now

[pearl elk]

Apple the great American company built on the back of the Chinese 😛

[plucky pagoda]

yeah, the steep fees because they can get away with it irks me

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/patrickklepek/status/1293987881430679554

Patrick Klepek (@patrickklepek)

Apple claims it will not give Epic and Fortnite a “special arrangement” and has removed Fortnite until it becomes compliant with App Store policies. Epic has not yet responded. https://t.co/UGLRUQAs9w

Twitter

[ancient hornet]

since there's plenty of ways to buy stuff on iPhone apps that don't go through their payment processor vampire

[fathom wadi]

One thing I did respect about Apple in recent years is when they refused to unlock that phone for the FBI. That was actually pretty cool.

[bronze axle]

@ancient hornet The majority of Apple's revenue comes from iPhone sales, not the App Store cut.

[ancient hornet]

reason enough for them to fix their prices but, hey, why would they?

[pearl elk]

Lol which policies, they ones they just made up to kick Epic off right

[ancient hornet]

I don't see many companies do just that: lower their prices because they got too much margins

they only lower their prices when competition knocks at the door

[bronze axle]

Lol which policies, they ones they just made up to kick Epic off right
@pearl elk Which policy did they "just make up" to kick Epic off the platform?

[ancient hornet]

or legislation

[pearl elk]

Whichever they are touting

[bronze axle]

This is line with existing IAP policies that have been in place for years.

[pearl elk]

Epic already sighted other apps which allow non Apple payments as proof

[plucky pagoda]

They knew Apple would likely kick the app when they did it. It's throwing down the gauntlet to pick a fight.

I just want to see where it goes.

[bronze axle]

Yeah, that much is clear.

Epic wouldn't do this without knowing how Apple would react.

[pearl elk]

Just because Apple has a policy doesnt mean it'll hold up in court

[rich quiver]

playstore and consoles maybe next to remove the game 🤔

[fathom wadi]

maybe thats the point of it, to get legal intervention on the issues

[pearl elk]

If Epic think they can win maybe it'll be the change we need

Tim Sweeney is basically Batman

[bronze axle]

I think Fortnite will be back on the App Store by tomorrow.

[bronze axle]

And Tim says all of this as a fan of Apple.

[fathom wadi]

yeah posting via his iphone usually

[plucky pagoda]

That's one thing I've liked though, it's not hard to see where they're going if you listen.

[bronze axle]

My point is he doesn't mindlessly hate Apple. He likes them and genuinely wants them to do better, and isn't afraid to call it out when they do something stupid.

[plucky pagoda]

it was the same with the games store it was telegraphed on twitter and in interviews way ahead

[fathom wadi]

It feels bad that Apple were like a golden child of computing but after Steve died, and perhaps for some time previously, it seems to have gone so corporate master race that its hard to like them anymore.

[pearl elk]

Thats how the world should be though, we shouldnt just bend to the will of these companies because they are immovable corporate megoliths

[ancient hornet]

Steve was guilty of that a lot

[bronze axle]

@plucky pagoda Yeah, there were hints for a while that Epic would launch their store.

[fathom wadi]

yeah im sure it started before. He was no saint

[rich quiver]

is not recommended to release games to mac by the majority of the games industry

due to force mental api

[fathom wadi]

id release on as many platforms as I could if I were making money tho

[bronze axle]

@fathom wadi You forget: Apple has already gone through a bad corporate takeover phase. Steve was forced out, started NeXT, and eventually came back to save Apple from the brink of death.

[fathom wadi]

thats true

Bill Gates did most of the saving tho

[bronze axle]

What?

[ancient hornet]

I like how you call it the mental api 😄

[fathom wadi]

he gave the initial capital to get Steve going again because he respected him a lot

heheh twitter is on fire now over fortnite

[bronze axle]

Of course it is.

Ah, right. Gates' investment in 1997. That was a big moment.

[ancient hornet]

aren't there rumors that this investment was a way for Microsoft to save Apple then say "look, we aren't a Monopoly, there's Apple!" ?

[bronze axle]

Maybe there were, but I don't recall hearing such rumors.

[ancient hornet]

wait I didn't notice but the new Fortnite video is mocking Apple

they definitively were ready for all that

[bronze axle]

This headline is ridiculous.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21367904/epic-parody-apple-1984-ad-fortnite-removal-app-store

The short was produced ahead of time and here comes The Verge suggesting it might be "revenge" for something that happened an hour ago.

[rich quiver]

it true do

[plucky pagoda]

It's gold.

[rich quiver]

it satire remake of the 1984 mac super bowl commercial

[bronze axle]

It's one thing to suggest this is all a pre-meditated strategy - it probably is - but to use a word like revenge is poor, clickbait writing.

[plucky pagoda]

I'm loving it.

[pearl elk]

Apple have this holy status for some reason, bit like the vegan in Scott Pilgrim

[plucky pagoda]

It is more akin to a planned strategy. It's like the second move in a chess opening.

[bronze axle]

I guess we'll see when the video releases in ~30 minutes.

[ancient hornet]

some editor at The Verge clearly manipulated the article title for superior shock value

the URL gives it away with a much milder title

[bronze axle]

Indeed.

Sincere writing from any of the big outlets is rare these days, though.

[pearl elk]

Its clearly not revenge if they knew it was coming

[plucky pagoda]

how many people are rushing to install on another device, since they don't have it on IOS now, to get in and see it?

[bronze axle]

Right.

Probably a lot.

[rich quiver]

apple cant even talk to valve on basic shit ether

[ancient hornet]

Apple recently gave Amazon an exemption to the 30 percent fee when selling TV show and movie rentals through its Prime Video app, something the company says is only allowed for certain streaming video platforms. Additionally, court documents released during the Big Tech antitrust hearing last month revealed Apple cut a special deal with Amazon in 2016 to lower the fees it takes on Prime Video subscriptions from 30 percent down to 15 percent to get Amazon’s app on the App Store.

any argument that "it's only for physical goods that they allow different payment processors" are moot really

they are just using their gatekeeping position to bully companies into extravagant fees

I'm not sure we'll see a resolution to that anytime soon, 30% down to 10% is a massive amount of money and I suspect it'll be fought tooth and nail in courts

[bronze axle]

I can't decide if I like this move from Epic.

It will certainly bring more attention to the flaws in Apple's App Store policies, but if it's all pre-meditated, the claim against Apple is weaker.

[ancient hornet]

let's see what's in the video first I suppose

[rich quiver]

fortnite cant be download on playstore

[ancient hornet]

they could have prepared two videos, one praising apple for letting the move pass

and one to criticize them

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/LenzLps/status/1293994286627856388/photo/1

Lenz (@LenzLps)

@HaterLuara @Cricatry @Brasil_Fortnite Se eu sei ler bem, ali tá dizendo 12 anos.
Então se vc é criança e não deveria estar jogando. Bjs

Twitter

[bronze axle]

Oh man.

This is interesting.

Now I wonder if Epic has something larger planned.

No idea what it could be in regards to iOS. You can't sideload apps without jailbreaking an iOS device, so there aren't really any legitimate options there.

[ancient hornet]

wait why do you say it can't be downloaded?

[bronze axle]

This may just be a PR stunt to get people talking about outdated app store policies across the board.

[ancient hornet]

the poster says he can download it

there's even a button for that

I still see the Fortnite app in the Play Store myself too

[fathom wadi]

I can't decide if I like this move from Epic.
@bronze axle I think someone needs to make a stand at some point. If anyone, it should be Epic considering Tim's opinions and the EGS being a thing. Whether it's good for business all around immediately is probably going to head in a negative direction for a while. But playing the long game means taking some losses sometimes.

[rich quiver]

its a 2005 policy is very old

https://twitter.com/FortniteGame/status/1293994211621167105

Fortnite (@FortniteGame)

Epic Games has filed legal papers in response to Apple, read more here: https://t.co/c4sgvxQUvb

Twitter

how ever say there prepare for this was right

[ancient hornet]

I suppose they needed that removal as extra fuel for the lawsuit

[plucky pagoda]

Yeah, his tweets were laying out the start of a legal strategy the last few weeks.

[bronze axle]

Indeed. This all seems to be part of a strategy, including the legal action.

[ancient hornet]

like: "we tried times and times again to negotiate an improvement and it doesn't come, now we do it in the courts and bait them"

[bronze axle]

Tim knows what he's doing.

[plucky pagoda]

Nice, They're filling for an injunction to put it back on the store.

oh, damn.

[bronze axle]

On what grounds, I wonder.

[ancient hornet]

the fact that Apple practices look more and more like "if we don't compete, we can negotiate a cut" looks bad

Nor is Epic seeking
favorable treatment for itself, a single company. Instead, Epic is seeking injunctive relief
to allow fair competition in these two key markets that directly affect hundreds of
millions of consumers and tens of thousands, if not more, of third-party app developers.

[plucky pagoda]

Yeah, this is a good argument

omg, you have to read the thing

[ancient hornet]

they also make the argument that : "the very existence of all the apps in the store bring value to the iPhones"

[plucky pagoda]

The synergy.

[bronze axle]

Wow, yeah.

Premeditated beyond belief.

[plucky pagoda]

I love this so much.

[rich quiver]

so tim talk to every stores companies and everyone ignore him so he is trying another way

[bronze axle]

This is looking more and more like a small step in a long play.

I'm very interested in figuring out what the ultimate goal is.

[plucky pagoda]

I can't stop laughing

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/CrazyCliff_/status/1293996736378265600

CrazyCliff (@CrazyCliff_)

@tomwarren A lawsuit they simply can't win. The cut is 30% for Apple and also that for Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and Google. Whats next they sue all those too even after signing the TOS. Epic are pricks.

Twitter

[ancient hornet]

oh wow, they even make the reference in the legal papers 😄

honestly I take all that at face value : lower your damn cut

[bronze axle]

CrazyCliff probably didn't read the papers.

[ancient hornet]

Epic will benefit if gamedevs thrive

even without Fortnite

[bronze axle]

Sure, but they're not going to let Fortnite go down like this.

[delicate lark]

legal document starting with Orwell

10/10

[ancient hornet]

I think they plan on an injunction forcing the app back in the store while the lawsuit is in progress

[plucky pagoda]

oh damn the add is going to cast Apple in the reverse position. I have to see it.

[bronze axle]

I figured that's what it would be. But who's the revolutionary force now? Fortnite? Epic as a whole?

[rich quiver]

unreal engine alone is enough to stay afloat for decades for epic

[plucky pagoda]

" Instead, Epic is seeking injunctive relief
to allow fair competition in these two key markets that directly affect hundreds of
millions of consumers and tens of thousands, if not more, of third-party app developers"

[bronze axle]

Guess I'm finding a Fortnite streamer.

[plucky pagoda]

same

[bronze axle]

Definitely need to see this, and it's in 12 minutes.

[delicate lark]

share a link pls 😅

I don't even know where it will be at 🤔

[ancient hornet]

Fortnite 😄

that's where it'll be at

[delicate lark]

damn

let me know if you found a streamer 😄

[bronze axle]

They will probably upload it to YouTube, as well, but I don't know if it will be right away.

[gilded lichen]

What should humans do?

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/godsewa/status/1293997327535857664

nicholas grayson (@godsewa)

epic is really about to get xCloud on the app store

Twitter

[fathom wadi]

This is looking more and more like a small step in a long play.
@bronze axle thats exactly what I said upon the announcement of the EGS. When I was arguing on twitter with anti-epic people calling it anti-consumer, my retort was that this requires playing the long game. Apple are too powerful and drown out any dissent through legal action costs and pressure. It needs the same legal jockeying of position to resolve in my opinion. I'm glad he's not given up yet. It shows real character.

[plucky pagoda]

"Apple thus requires third-party app developers to agree they will not even offer
iOS users the choice of additional payment processing options alongside Apple’s. "

[bronze axle]

I'm sure there's a better stream, but this seems fine for the purposes of seeing the event. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS3HpKONVxA

[rich quiver]

they can sue any other companies with that line alone since is the same policy in every store @plucky pagoda

[plucky pagoda]

Thanks.

[rich quiver]

8 minutes

[fathom wadi]

I'd be tempted to download the update and dive in just for support.

[plucky pagoda]

That filing is on point.

[delicate lark]

imagine microsoft trying to get away with the same shit on windows 😂

[fathom wadi]

lol ahem game pass

[delicate lark]

you can only get apps from microsoft store 😂

[bronze axle]

Microsoft already tried that.

They failed.

[fathom wadi]

i like gamepass, but it really is digital cancer at the file system level

[rich quiver]

that policy is the same one is xbox ps switch and steam

[plucky pagoda]

I'm on page 9 of 65 and it's on the mark.

[rich quiver]

and playstore

in every store you cant use external payments

6 minutes

[bronze axle]

I'm watching the official YouTube channel to see if the short gets uploaded.

[ancient hornet]

Tim (and Gaben) threw a fit at Microsoft at the first hit of them trying to lock down PCs

[rich quiver]

yes

[ancient hornet]

you can use external payments

for some apps

like Amazon, you can skip the apple payment option no?

[plucky pagoda]

mic drop after mic drop in this thing

[bronze axle]

Food for thought: Epic just got a bunch of developers who don't play Fortnite to watch a Fortnite live event.

[plucky pagoda]

"Apple’s conduct has caused and continues to cause
Epic financial harm, but as noted above, Epic is not bringing this case to recover these
damages; Epic is not seeking any monetary damages. Instead, Epic seeks to end Apple’s
dominance over key technology markets, open up the space for progress and ingenuity,
and ensure that Apple mobile devices are open to the same competition as Apple’s
personal computers. As such, Epic respectfully requests this Court to enjoin Apple from
continuing to impose its anti-competitive restrictions on the iOS ecosystem and ensure
2020 is not like “1984”."

[ancient hornet]

• this is for security!
• what about Amazon?
• they have too much money for us to ignore/kick

[rich quiver]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idG26muDzm0 since it f

[ancient hornet]

I'm totally installing Fortnite to try the even

if I can even finish the download in time 😄

[bronze axle]

Amazon is in a category referred to as "reader apps" that can negotiate special pricing and privileges.

[ancient hornet]

Kindle books are still banned 😛

but not Amazon Prime videos or physical items

[pearl elk]

books are banned...

what kind of commie crap is this

[ancient hornet]

I want to see that in court :

• Apple, why did you ban Kindle books but allowed movies and physical items?
• Because we sell eBooks too, doh!

they don't allow Amazon to sell Kindle eBooks without skipping the 30% fee

but they allow other products

[bronze axle]

That's not the same thing as "banning books", let's be clear.

[ancient hornet]

yes my bad, wrong wording

[rich quiver]

2 minutes

[ancient hornet]

they are banned "from using their own payment processor"

[pearl elk]

Apple dont even sell fruit

[delicate lark]

wait what

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/michaelpachter/status/1293999072466989056

Michael Pachter (@michaelpachter)

The "30%" came from the fees charged by cable companies for pay-per-view movies in the 90s. Apple worked with record labels to take 30% for song sales, pointing to the cable example, and the record labels (under pressure of piracy) went along /2

Twitter

[delicate lark]

is the name a lie 😱

[plucky pagoda]

ebooks are a whole other thing with publishers charging the same rates as print and paying the same royalties

[bronze axle]

10 seconds. Let's see what this is all about.

[pearl elk]

Fruitarians are a lie

[plucky pagoda]

oh

nice

[rich quiver]

is 1:1 of the ad

[plucky pagoda]

lol,

[bronze axle]

This is a little on the nose.

[plucky pagoda]

that's it

lol

[bronze axle]

That... was weird.

[rich quiver]

this is prepare

[bronze axle]

As we predicted, this was all planned.

[plucky pagoda]

I still can't stop laughing

[delicate lark]

it was not planed, they made that video in 5 mins 😂

[bronze axle]

It's kind of ridiculous.

[plucky pagoda]

nah read the filing

[rich quiver]

is a 1:1 replica of the 1984 mac superbowl commercial

[bronze axle]

Yeah.

[plucky pagoda]

that thing was well prepared and uses being kicked off the app store as one of its arguments

even mentions 1984 in the opening of it

[bronze axle]

This doesn't feel like an honest strategy from Epic.

[delicate lark]

why not?

[plucky pagoda]

idk, it's good drama and the argument seems like it has a solid chance

[delicate lark]

but if they would have not been banned from the store the video would have been made for nothing 😱

[fathom wadi]

that mini-event was the best "WTF?" moment I've had in a while. And that is under a Trump administration.

[pearl elk]

Theyve filed in Cali too not NC

[rich quiver]

wtf?

[bronze axle]

@fathom wadi The biggest WTF moments from me in the past 4 years have had little to do with Trump or his administration.

[fathom wadi]

yeah truthfully im too cynical to be surprised by his rhetoric tbh 😄

[median wraith]

I mean you put the 7.99

and at the week put the 9.99

as Microsoft is doing with Europe games prices at Steam

and nobody said nothing or reclaim it

[pearl elk]

this could be dangerous for Apple if it turns into a class action

[median wraith]

they are charging a 40% more in euros that the base dollars cost

for no real reason since start of the year

60$ == 70€ for them

[bronze axle]

https://twitter.com/Jonathan_Blow/status/1293996787754078208

Jonathan Blow (@Jonathan_Blow)

https://t.co/6qRnuVvCef

Twitter

Click through for context. Quote tweets don't show in Discord embeds.

[rich quiver]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euiSHuaw6Q4

[bronze axle]

This campaign has some muscle behind it.

https://twitter.com/geoffkeighley/status/1294001569436798976

Geoff Keighley (@geoffkeighley)

#FreeFortnite

Twitter

[plucky pagoda]

damn

[bronze axle]

@rich quiver Wtf? I'm sitting here refreshing their uploads page and it's not there. How'd you find it? Unlisted?

[median wraith]

Meanwhile in steam

The company Tim wanted to fight

XD

[bronze axle]

Huh, nope. Not unlisted. Damn you and your caching, YouTube.

[plucky pagoda]

This is going to be so much fun to watch.

[rich quiver]

@bronze axle twitter and reddit

[bronze axle]

So this is interesting: a sentiment I'm seeing on Twitter from Fortnite players is the perception that Apple banned Fortnite because Epic wanted to make V-bucks cheaper. Of course, that doesn't make any logical sense.

[pearl elk]

Tim v Tim?

[bronze axle]

Oh shit. Battle of the Tims.

[ancient hornet]

Hevedy you probably missed the part where Epic cut all Fortnite purchase prices by 20% ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Epic doesn't control the price at which other publishers put their games

[median wraith]

Yeah just talking of

Microsoft leaving their solo store from Windows 10, and spreading the cancer to Steam

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/tomphillipsEG/status/1293996946244468736

Tom Phillips (@tomphillipsEG)

Epic makes the point in its lawsuit that with Fortnite pulled people won't be able to update their game - which means log on and play - next time it is updated. Fortnite's current ends in two weeks so this is a timebomb https://t.co/e3dCvND8pf

Twitter

[median wraith]

setting absurd prices rise on every new game they are releasing and nobody saying anothing

we need a video for everything or the individuals cannot think by their own

[ancient hornet]

also remember that all US prices are VAT free whereas they include VAT in EU for example

this softens the difference a little

[median wraith]

yeah calculate by yourself

[fringe sundial]

@bronze axle that sentiment was the entire goal

of what epic did

[rich quiver]

https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/freefortnite

[fringe sundial]

thats why they made it so ridiculiusly visible

[median wraith]

games are 60$ == 60€ because covers the VAT

[bronze axle]

Well then. https://twitter.com/alexjc/status/1294003969535213580

Alex J. Champandard (@alexjc)

When Epic Games raised 1.78 B in funding last week, investors must have been informed about the 65 page lawsuit in preparation against Apple's store monopoly and they bought into the idea + the chance of winning. High stakes! 🍿 https://t.co/W5UANO4LEi!

Twitter

[rich quiver]

the fuck is happening

[median wraith]

Microsoft started charging a 10€ extra for their parties with nudes

people should check the things

before claim absurd things please

60$ aren't even 50€

they charge 70€

for 60$

[ancient hornet]

who does? the publishers?

Epic doesn't sell any game

[median wraith]

well Epic is publisher isn't ?

[ancient hornet]

of Fortnite

[bronze axle]

Epic sells games on the Epic Games store.

[pearl elk]

So no one else has removed Fortnite yet?

[ancient hornet]

"no one" can only mean Google really

[median wraith]

Yeah Epic Games isn't selling any Microsoft game yet

[pearl elk]

Isnt it on PS4 and Xbone as well?

[plucky pagoda]

It's still there as far as I can tell

[fathom wadi]

#FreeFortnite #TibetCanWait

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/LordZygon/status/1294004828117532672

Lord Zygon (@LordZygon)

Can’t believe apple is so greedy that they take 30% tax on your purchases. #freefortnite #teamsweeny

Twitter

[ancient hornet]

the other platforms are either Epic themselves, of the consoles and the prices of V-Bucks were lowered there too so there's nothing special for them

[delicate lark]

https://twitter.com/jwaaaap/status/1294004343797055500?s=19

Jan Willem Nijman (@jwaaaap)

https://t.co/A9fN83TfKn

Twitter

[pearl elk]

Epic must have be prepared for more than just Apple, I guess they knew theyd be quick on the trigger

[plucky pagoda]

yeah, I doubt Apple was ready for this.

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/apple?lang=en

Apple (@Apple)

http://Apple.com

Followers

4723706

Twitter

[pearl elk]

Attack 😛

[rich quiver]

they remove everything on there twitter

[ancient hornet]

what? weird

[plucky pagoda]

The scale of the meme fodder is impressive

[pearl elk]

lol why are you right under apple there Victor

[bronze axle]

That's not new. They don't post on Twitter, they just have that account reserved.

[ancient hornet]

makes sense

[bronze axle]

They have other active accounts for more specific projects, like Apple Support.

But no one tweets from @apple.

[plucky pagoda]

Tim Cook does

[bronze axle]

I've never seen it.

He tweets from his own account.

[plucky pagoda]

Oh, yeah. sorry that's what I meant

[ancient hornet]

I don't expect any tweet from Apple anytime soon

Lawyers will be in the loop

[bronze axle]

Somehow I doubt Apple was blindsided here. Their marketing and legal departments are world class.

[plucky pagoda]

Not by the filing itself, but more the overall aggressive ad campaign feel of it.

[bronze axle]

Yeah that's possible. It depends on how much Epic divulged to Apple in negotiations.

[plucky pagoda]

better than netflix for now

Yeah, I mean it's not like it came out of nowhere and just all of sudden someone said oh wow that 30% we loved is now an issue.

[bronze axle]

Yeah. Surely Epic and Apple have been negotiating privately for a long time, Epic trying to gain the upper hand.

[plucky pagoda]

It's a hell of a move.

[ancient hornet]

Epic has been raging at that 30% cut for years now, it's not something new

[bronze axle]

Indeed. This is bold and risky on Epic's part.

[plucky pagoda]

Seeking complete relief for all developers using the Apple store

[bronze axle]

Epic and Apple are not enemies by any stretch of the imagination.

[ancient hornet]

the whole "leveraging Fortnite to start a Twitter hashtag" probably took them by surprise though 😄

[pearl elk]

So bold, so brave

[bronze axle]

Which makes this all the more interesting.

The FAQ in the blog post is pretty telling.

[ancient hornet]

saw that mentionned

[plucky pagoda]

?

[ancient hornet]

They'll be filing a secondary case in Europe at 9am tomorrow morning, Apple didn't pull the app until too late to submit it today.

[bronze axle]

It reads like propaganda.

[ancient hornet]

well the blog post probably targets the average Fortnite gamer which is rather young 😄

[bronze axle]

Yeah for sure.

[ancient hornet]

but mostly, I think what matters is the lawsuits

[plucky pagoda]

link?

[bronze axle]

It's for their players.

https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/freefortnite

[ancient hornet]

there's no link, it's just some random guy saying that

[plucky pagoda]

ah, thanks

[bronze axle]

This is all tied to the launch of season 4.

[ancient hornet]

but it does make sense, we'll just see tomorrow

[bronze axle]

So this has clearly been in the works.

[delicate lark]

Apple is keeping prices high so they can collect 30% of your payments lol this is a lie

[pearl elk]

this injunction is legit

[ancient hornet]

the EpicBad crowd I see around the internet is incredibly tone death on the topic though XD

[pearl elk]

EpicBad, AppleBader

[plucky pagoda]

not really, the 30% naturally increases prices

[delicate lark]

lol

[plucky pagoda]

I hope they get it. I doubt they will, before a full hearing. But it'd be something to see.

[bronze axle]

That line reads as dishonest to me at first, too, but if you think about it, what they're saying is: while Epic technically controls the pricing of V-bucks, that pricing must account for the 30% cut. In other words: "We could offer you cheaper prices and still make the cut we want to make if Apple's cut was lower."

[ancient hornet]

also

this isn't theoric

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/FortniteGame/status/1294006412931223552 the fuck

Fortnite (@FortniteGame)

Epic Games has defied the App Store Monopoly. In retaliation, Apple is blocking Fortnite from a billion devices.

Visit https://t.co/K3S07w5uEk and join the fight to stop 2020 from becoming "1984" https://t.co/tpsiCW4gqK

Retweets

2347

Likes

9504

Twitter

[ancient hornet]

they cut the price of V-Bucks EVERYWHERE, even in places where they didn't have a 30% cut

[plucky pagoda]

It's the same thing steam does too

[ancient hornet]

to prove that point

[plucky pagoda]

by forcing you to eat their cut

[bronze axle]

30% is the industry standard. It's far from just Apple.

[rich quiver]

there now livestream it 24/7 know

[pearl elk]

30% was the industry standard

[ancient hornet]

saying "it's the industry standard" like that again and again smells of price fixing which is illegal 😛

I wonder if they use that argument in the lawsuit somewhere

[plucky pagoda]

but that percent came directly from traditional publishing with books

[delicate lark]

the way Epic tries to use its userbase against apple is pretty weird

[mossy nexus]

Industry standard = what we can get away with charging

[plucky pagoda]

there's not good basis for it to be 30%

[thorny dock]

tis a tale as old as time, big money vs big money, with us consumers as the battlefield

[ancient hornet]

I know in EU there are often rulings against whole industries when they get caught price fixing

[bronze axle]

I'm not saying it should stay that way. I'm just saying it's a commonly-used split on large marketplaces. App Store, Play Store, Steam, etc.

[ancient hornet]

but it's not even applying uniformly on the App Store

Amazon supposedly gets 15%

[bronze axle]

@ancient hornet Right. That's the special category I mentioned earlier.

"Reader apps"

[rich quiver]

its started with PPV on tv before becoming industry stander by steam

[plucky pagoda]

yeah, this is interesting all around

[pearl elk]

Epic are arguing that Apples AppStore is a monopoly because there is no other choice, in the instance of Play Store and Steam you do actually have choice

It goes to the very core of Apples business model

[faint dock]

it's the only choice for ios devices

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/DasHektor/status/1294009176432181248

Hektor, Re|in|carnated (@DasHektor)

Like seriously EPIC, a billion dollar company is LITERALLY WEAPONIZING CHILDREN(!!!) to rage some ragey online war against another billion dollar company

This is the shit cyberpunk novels warned us about

EXPROPRIATION IS THE ONLY ANSWER

Twitter

[pearl elk]

eg 70. Apple effects this unlawful condition by requiring that all iOS developers enter into Apple’s Developer Agreement, a contract of adhesion

[ancient hornet]

Epic also argues that Google makes Android do scary popups to discourage alternative app stores

but I guess they go after Apple first because it's the most clear cut offender by far

[thorny dock]

it looks like they are able to show the video to players in game haha thats pretty great

[pearl elk]

that contract could be considered null considering its forced, you cant do that, it has to be an agreement

[plucky pagoda]

it's not forced. You are not required to put an app on the app store.

[pearl elk]

Its like getting someone drunk and handing them some papers to sign, it wont hold in court

[plucky pagoda]

It's the terms of the agreement that are at issue.

[pearl elk]

the contract is forced, it has nothing to do with what platform you choose to release on

if you want to release on iOS you are forced into contracts, that isnt how contract law works

it has to be an agreement

[plucky pagoda]

That argument would render all TOS's null

[pearl elk]

Most of em are yeah

just wait till Dr DisRespect hammers Amazon

[plucky pagoda]

is that a euphemism?

[carmine frigate]

they should remove IOS from packaging builds 😛

[pearl elk]

eg Playstation EU said they cant offer refunds here right because its part of the terms of using PSN but guess what, they were wrong. ACCC fined em cuz TOS breached the local law

TOS still need to be legally enforceable in whichever area they are signed

if they arnt they arnt valid

[plucky pagoda]

Idk, every EU case about digital content I've liked has been overturned eventually.

[pearl elk]

Epics argument is that no other OS has to sign a contract of adhesion by simply developing on them

Sure some Stores might but not the OS itself

[plucky pagoda]

ah, ok. I see.

Not towards the app store but to develop on the OS

Gotchya

[carmine frigate]

i thought only grandmas were usin IOS 😛

[raw rose]

https://twitter.com/jwaaaap/status/1294004343797055500

Jan Willem Nijman (@jwaaaap)

https://t.co/A9fN83TfKn

Twitter

[pearl elk]

The argument is that Apple have a large market share and need to open their platform up to competition. That even if they opened their Store/OS up they are still in the best position to compete

[raw rose]

Sorry if that was already posted

[plucky pagoda]

Honestly, I prefer the closed system.

as a consumer.

[pearl elk]

Which makes sense, its their hardware, their OS etc so like MS and Google they have a large competitive advantage without locking things down

[carmine frigate]

join the fight on what side btw?

in what context is that meme?

[plucky pagoda]

Apple is the empire

[median wraith]

Hey kids do you remember when you had to patch your game manually ?

[raw rose]

I thought it was obvious

[carmine frigate]

depends on who posted it 😛

[pearl elk]

I think if Apple wanted a closed platform they shouldnt have become the largest smart phone maker.

MS tried this trick too, ended up bad for em

[carmine frigate]

yea MS is dead now

ow w8 no their not

[median wraith]

"Update: Epic Files Lawsuit Against Apple"

[carmine frigate]

cant apple just buy epic?

[raw rose]

Apple is anti videogames

[median wraith]

Epic is like Santa Claus of Lawsuit demands

[raw rose]

Why would they buy a videogame company?

[carmine frigate]

why not 😛

pretty cheap

[median wraith]

an apple that is biten cannot be epic

[pearl elk]

MS isnt dead but they got split up because of a Monopoly

[raw rose]

Amazon is a monopoly

[pearl elk]

they are under investigation atm yup

[hardy yacht]

this apple - epic games boxing match should be interesting to watch

[carmine frigate]

nah there are more game engines than lumberyard 😛

[median wraith]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfUsnsKUwAAXwA5?format=jpg&name=medium

[pearl elk]

People keep using Walmart as an example of Amazons competition

its like sure I'll just boot up my Walmart cloud server

[raw rose]

Walmart is so small compared to amazon lol

[median wraith]

Technically if you don't success meet an EULA points, then your contract is canceled

so technically you cannot demand someone as your contract were then canceled prior by yourself

🤔

[pearl elk]

Apple says they are guidelines not rules, therefore... fuck em 😛

[hardy yacht]

don't worry, i don't think epic took any rushed decision. they know what they're doing. they have big lawyers as well.

[median wraith]

I mean Epic always win

[ancient hornet]

the 65 page lawsuit didn't write itself in 5 minutes for sure

this was weeks in the making

some people say the recent investors in Epic knew about the lawsuit and bought in the idea, this could be true

[plucky pagoda]

I doubt it. Sony has other interests.

[zinc matrix]

what free fortnite means

[pearl elk]

Yeah but lets say MS reads this and goes hey we are on Epics side here maybe we ask them to join in with our own complaints on xcloud, then Valve jumps in and now Apple is starting to worry

[ancient hornet]

it's more of the "we invest money because we believe the company will grow"

and they probably have to be warned about such planned major events like "btw we are taking Apple to courts soon"

[hearty sundial]

I don't know man it kinda feels wrong.

I mean.. Android could ask for 50% profits if it wanted.

You can't just make a system to bypass what you agreed in the first place.

Sure, 30% is so oldschool and really a large amount of money but eh...

[ancient hornet]

that's not the issue

the issue is that they ask too much

[hardy yacht]

things have to change. if no one is acting on it, then they will stay the same.

[ancient hornet]

the "bypass" is a trick to add fuel to the lawsuit

[carmine frigate]

you can, but u risk havin ur app removed

[hardy yacht]

this 30% fee standard is garbage.

[ancient hornet]

basically, if they didn't have an "insane" fee on the "only officially allowed payment processor" and just normal prices

then nobody would bat an eye

[pearl elk]

Epic are showing that its not a technical impossibility that Apples restrictions are largely arbitrary to the point of being unreasonable

[plucky pagoda]

anybody use skrill instead of paypal?

[ancient hornet]

as for security against "kids stealing parents CC and making unauthorized purchases on non official payment processors"

[hearty sundial]

But I want to understand one thing. If I wanted to not make a game in Apple because I thought the fee was too large, I just wouldn't. Epic knew that and they AGREED to that.

It feels abit wrong here.

[ancient hornet]

well the solution is super easy though : mandate that all in app payment processing options respect the OS parental control settings

[pearl elk]

Apple already had to pay back heaps of money cuz of that on their own AppStore lol

[median wraith]

fun fact on Huawei phones google play started auto closing months ago

[pearl elk]

It was that lost money which forced their hand into making proper controls for CCs

[hardy yacht]

it's not wrong, they agreed on it, and now they don't. they want to change things. it's a monopoly and that has to change. epic already pushed a lot of milions in apple's pockets.

[hearty sundial]

Surely 30% is too much and ridiculous amount that I just heard but it's like "bully fighting against a bully in mid school" thing going on.

[pearl elk]

Apple never does anything in the consumers best interest, its all about money

[hardy yacht]

people already pay for the phone, why do they have that 30% fee in the prices?

[pearl elk]

But countries have consumer laws which protect them against companies over reaching

[median wraith]

If Steam or Apple charges a 30% is bad
If GOG charges a 30% is good
Logic 30%

[fathom wadi]

the 30% is a secondary point to the fact they won't allow specific companies to offer alternative payments to reduce prices to the consumer. They want high prices to make the cut bigger.

[hardy yacht]

30% is too much everywhere

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/andrearene/status/1294010476305608704

Andrea Rene (@andrearene)

People using #FreeFortnite probably don't recognize that Epic willingly kicked millions of iOS users out of their accounts (likely w/content they paid for) because they wanted to make a statement by directly violating platform rules. Imagine if EA or Blizzard had done that.

Twitter

[pearl elk]

30% is a publishers cut not a stores cut

[median wraith]

well nobody said anything bad about GOG, plus Epic supported it or something

[pearl elk]

publishers do alot more than just host your game

[rich quiver]

Pat Per View is also 30%

[hearty sundial]

Look I am not defending the 30% but what Epic did really feels "planned way ahead of ya and knew this was gonna happen".

[hardy yacht]

for sure it's planned

[fathom wadi]

I bet you 100% that if no resolution is made, Epic will pay back every apple customer for what they bought.

[carmine frigate]

i have 0 sympathy for iphone usin Vbucks buyers 😛

[hearty sundial]

And Epic GOT THE POWER of refunding ANYTHING so... Eh...

I just think it's wrong <.<

Now people can't play Fortnite and Epic knew that.

[pearl elk]

@all the iOS users... Installing Fortnite just to rub salt

[hardy yacht]

it's a lesson that apple needs to learn. others will learn from this lesson as well

[fathom wadi]

Apple turned off Fortnite though. So really, they could have done something else. Like allow that payment option

[hearty sundial]

Epic knew they wouldn't do that.

[pearl elk]

thing is it was offered along side their payment option, people still had a choice, they coulda chose to give Apple 30%

[fathom wadi]

yeah I wonder why? 😄

[pearl elk]

I mean if you can pay the premium for Apple hardware surely you can spare a few extra dollars for poor poor Apple, I mean they have it so hard

[hearty sundial]

People who paid for Fortnite to play it on their Apple Phones are called for rioting. It's like putting a home in fire but being the guy who gave that firestarter the fire in the first place, then saying "Hey, THIS GUY did it!".

And now some people are homeless. Welp.

[hardy yacht]

well, epic didn't remove their game from the store. apple did it 😄

[hearty sundial]

Dude.

[ancient hornet]

Fornite is free

you don't buy it

[rich quiver]

fortnite is free

[pearl elk]

Apple should pay for housing for all those homeless Fortnite streamers on iOS 😛

[hearty sundial]

It's like saying "Well I shot the guy but I didn't expect the bullet to land on his head after aiming for the head."

[ancient hornet]

and the game still works for those that have it

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/ZhugeEX/status/1294017802634956800

Daniel Ahmad (@ZhugeEX)

Epic obviously ends up benefitting this and that is after all the reason they're the ones doing the lawsuit.

But this goes far beyond Apple charging a 30% fee and as noted in the first tweet is basically an anti-trust case.

Twitter

[fathom wadi]

its definitely a drastic situation and yes Epic knew what would happen. I feel for the Apple users who were oblivious to any of this and it just stops next update.

[hardy yacht]

i understand what you're saying, but this is a power move. it's meant to create arguments.

[hearty sundial]

Marc gets my point.

It's creating arguments while making people suffer. I don't like it.

[fathom wadi]

that being said, its just a game. The reason this action is underway is more about livelihoods and the bigger picture. Sometimes you got to break eggs.

[hearty sundial]

Imagine Steam removing all games that EGS has and make them unplayable "just to have a statement".

[hardy yacht]

people get their money back if they ask for it

so no one is suffering

[rich quiver]

@hearty sundial all other argument they have with apple google and valve fell through is a force one they want

[fathom wadi]

that would be better imo. All that time in a free game, with assets you paid for, and you get it all back for free. Good deal

[hearty sundial]

It's not the end of the world and I think Fornite is overrated as heck. But then, I just think this could be done better...

[pearl elk]

Lets not forget Apple just stole all those Fortnite players gear

[rich quiver]

epic dosnt care

[pearl elk]

Epic still hosts it on other platforms

however if iOS is your only means of access, Apple just stole your shit

[delicate lark]

imo if this turns out well everyone (other than apple) wins so let's hope for the best

[carmine frigate]

any1 doin put option on apple? 😛

[hearty sundial]

Some people plays it on their phones only though. Not even a single user needed to suffer from "Company flexing against another Company." <.<

[fathom wadi]

I don't imagine there are many serious Fortnite streamers who run of an Apple phone, so I guess its just casual players anyway. Who will most likely just complain until they move on.

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/michaelpachter/status/1293998268997750784 michael pachter explain the lawsuit

Michael Pachter (@michaelpachter)

This Apple-Epic battle is interesting.

Apple charges 30% of in-game purchases for games played on its phones, and charges 15% for subscriptions (think newspapers or Spotify). /1

Likes

130

Twitter

[ancient hornet]

isn't the 15% only for subscriptions that last more than one year?

and doesn't apply for the first year

[pearl elk]

the flex is the removal of Fortnite from the store, the injunction filed is an actual grievance

[hardy yacht]

https://twitter.com/ZhugeEX/status/1294014566347747334?s=20

Daniel Ahmad (@ZhugeEX)

It is worth bearing in mind that Epic isn't seeking any monetary compensation from this lawsuit.

It's all about anti-trust and the monopolistic practices that Apple undertakes to stifle competition on iOS.

Essentially that Apple is the sole means where apps can be distribut...

Twitter

"It is worth bearing in mind that Epic isn't seeking any monetary compensation from this lawsuit."

this is another power move

we're too small for this. let them fight. let's watch

[hearty sundial]

Dude, Epic has so much money now they don't even give a mylittlepony's ass if you make games with their Engine.

So of course they are not seeking monetary gains, they don't need it. <.<

[fathom wadi]

all corporations with shareholders need it. They are just willing to offset it.

if the long game returns more profits, its worth it

[hearty sundial]

It surely will, Epic hardly ever decided to just do it now for the lols.

[pearl elk]

Epic took it off the table so Apple couldnt just point their finger and cry that its all about them being rich

[fathom wadi]

imagine the board room when this came up. thats a fly on the wall situation I'd be happy to live.

[hardy yacht]

haha

yeah

[thorny dock]

I feel like this whole situation is familiar, something to do with microsoft trying to sue netzero in the 90's for making "unauthorized programs on windows without permission"

[fathom wadi]

"and if that's not enough, I have this great idea for a Fortnite mini-event"
"Ship it"

[hearty sundial]

lols

[pearl elk]

theyre bringing back teams this time its iOS users vs everyone else

[thorny dock]

apple succeeded where microsoft failed I guess

[hardy yacht]

this was so much thought in advance

[pearl elk]

wonder who will win 😛

[hearty sundial]

Well I still like Epic Games for having a free Engine and so low costs to share your games.

I just hoped people wouldn't get hurt.

[fathom wadi]

Really Cross cross-platform 😄

[hearty sundial]

So I am like.

Meh.

But then. This all could actually be better.

I don't like Fortnite 😛

[zinc matrix]

ye

[pearl elk]

Cross platform, thats like an angry Apple emoji right?

[zinc matrix]

ue is good tho

[hearty sundial]

I am subbed to "Gaming" in twitter and 80% of the news are about Fornite. <.< I don't like it.

I wished Epic did other stuff QQ.

[hardy yacht]

well, in the end, they both lose money, but one will win reputation, and i think epic will win even if they lose the law suit

[zinc matrix]

ue is the best thing on epic

[hearty sundial]

Exactly. I can't thank them enough.

Blueprints ❤️

[zinc matrix]

what was the lawsuit?

[pearl elk]

Fortshite vs Crapple

[zinc matrix]

lol

[fathom wadi]

I wished Epic did other stuff QQ.
@hearty sundial me too. Paragon was excellent despite the reception and Smite's dominance in that area. UT is always on my list of games I want to play again. Especially Onslaught/Warfare mode. I might even make a little prototype and clone it.

[zinc matrix]

epic or fort?

[hearty sundial]

Yeah. Also Epic could just focus on 2D gaming, then have their own platform to have mobile games in there so people wouldn't use Android, like, at all.

I don't understand why Epic never goes the 2D route.

[pearl elk]

The enemy is capturing your node

[hearty sundial]

Also Paragon was just the right thing in a TERRIBLY AMAZINGLY BAD time.

[quiet narwhal]

I hope the biggest thing we get out of this is a way for normal people to distribute normal apps to people on iOS without needing the app store or dev account. The other majory mobile platform does not require this so it would be nice as a dev to see this as well on iOS

[ancient hornet]

but Fortnite isn't the news at all really

not directly

this is a news about the AppStore and 30% cuts

[hearty sundial]

I get too many Fornite news on "Gaming" section. <.<

[fathom wadi]

what I would like to see is native vector graphics in UE. I know its a processing hog for purpose, but not always and I want that option.

[hearty sundial]

Dude, give us Unreal2D.

[fathom wadi]

paper2d is about the best you're gonna get for now I guess

[pearl elk]

If you want 2d just ignore an axis

[fathom wadi]

that too

[alpine fern]

vector graphics for UMG pls

[quiet narwhal]

we have battle breakers which is 2d(ish) so its doable

[austere stream]

Been out of power since Monday. Can't wait to get back working on my project.

[fathom wadi]

yeah but I like it in 2d games too

[alpine fern]

currently you get blurry icons at all resolutions with scaling...

so egg

[pearl elk]

more 2d games should use skeletal animation

[hearty sundial]

Yeah and you know what's sad? Paper2D was a just a "Lol Hobby" of ONE Unreal Dev who did it in its free time. Just hire the guy to continue it, maybe a mobile platform sale place and viola. Also sue Unity for being in internet, that's a sin big enough

[fathom wadi]

they have skeletal animation in Adobe Animate. It's really rather good

[alpine fern]

paper2d had no vector graphics either so that's useless

[pearl elk]

you can do it in UE4 by just... ignoring an axis

[fathom wadi]

sometimes, when im bored, I scale a character model down to 0 on an axis and pretend it's a 2d character for a bit. It works a treat with my Bender model.

[hearty sundial]

"UnrealAlmost2D"

[pearl elk]

You guys should use DOS its awesome and 2D

[fathom wadi]

can it run Crysis?

[pearl elk]

Crysis2D

[plucky pagoda]

I was actually experimenting earlier with breaking up sprites and applying them to planes rigged to a skeleton

[fathom wadi]

heh nice

[plucky pagoda]

Looking at different ways to do 2D in UE.

[pearl elk]

Do you need sprites with that sort of thing though, why not just do the movement of what the sprite is doing on 2d meshes?

[fathom wadi]

if I have to use another spritesheet to animate in UMG, I'm gonna ... probably do it because FML.

[ancient hornet]

I should do another DOS game one of those days for the fun 😄

[plucky pagoda]

you can use control rig, animBPs, montages

[ancient hornet]

I wonder if I can get a C++17 toolchain to work, hmm

[pearl elk]

you could also use displacement to make the 2d pop 😛

[plucky pagoda]

You can use different meshes in a BP for states.

there's a lot of potential but not sure I'm going to pursue it. I've been going over a lot of different approaches.

[pearl elk]

I just know what Ive seen of complex film 2D and alot of that is just trickery in 3D for creation of 2D

[carmine frigate]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6l4YAqwPcAPNWM3ZkY3YVo0NWs/view?usp=sharing

pretty old 😛

[plucky pagoda]

Yeah, using a perspective camera and scene depth you can do a lot

[hearty sundial]

I don't want tricky 2D, I want 2D in Unreal T_T

[plucky pagoda]

Some of the grease pencil stuff in blender is impressive too.

[pearl elk]

2D in Unreal doesnt want you

[ancient hornet]

isn't paper2D 2D in Unreal?

[plucky pagoda]

Yeah, there's not a good out of the box solution

[fathom wadi]

grease pencil is astonishing. It's like entering a new dimension of drawing

literally

[plucky pagoda]

Yeah some of the mesh distortion and keyframing for drawings is crazy.

I'd expect that to get some love from the community in the near future

[fathom wadi]

its just had some love. Good sign when the Blender community pushes a section. The video editor is getting some attention too

[plucky pagoda]

It's definitely something to keep an eye on.

Idk, the guy I'm about to work with uses toon boom but I already have adobe's suite.

not looking for another monthly fee

[fathom wadi]

well slowly break him down through months of minor insults. Then when he is at his weakest. Sleep with his wife. Break his will entirely and when he asks what it was all for.... say "Animate" and walk away.

[hearty sundial]

for some reason I thought you said "Anime" instead of "Animate" <.<

[pearl elk]

tbh Id love if I had better drawing tools in UE4 like Illustrator

3dsmax is superbad for drawing

[bronze axle]

@hearty sundial lol "It was all for anime."

[plucky pagoda]

He has a husband.

[fathom wadi]

then you have some work to do.

[plucky pagoda]

and he could probably bench press my car.

[fathom wadi]

lol

[plucky pagoda]

His bicep is the same size as my waist

[fathom wadi]

use it to try on new pants.

[bronze axle]

Yeah that sounds like a very convenient clothes shopping partner.

[plucky pagoda]

I'm not sure how this got from there to here.

lol

[pearl elk]

https://tenor.com/view/undercover-brother-bellbottoms-parachute-gif-10319559

[plucky pagoda]

wow, pushing that whole annual thing

[pearl elk]

autorenew, how is that even legal

My TV and Netflix cant even run for a few hours without asking me if Im still watching yet this thing wants to take my money even 10years after I die

[hearty sundial]

better pay for WoW instead.

or not, nevermind

[ancient hornet]

because Netflix is trying to save their bandwidth money

and they are trying to save THEIR subscription money 😛

well, yours but it's not anymore once you paid!

[bronze axle]

@pearl elk Why would auto-renew be illegal?

I don't know of any subscription services that require you to manually renew every month/year.

[ancient hornet]

I know someone that forgot to pay to renew server hosts a few times 😛

cue in an emergency alert for services down the time to track the issue

[bronze axle]

That sounds terribly stressful.

[ancient hornet]

well we got used to it after a few times XD

[hearty sundial]

Wow....

They are sueing that because of an icon that HARDLY LOOKS LIKE Apple Fruit design?

Dude. It is NOT an apple!

Wow.. Imagine now making a game with icons that have only outlines.

OH GOSH DARN

Now I feel terrible! I was on the wrong side in the first place!

Dude.. Like.. Come on now.

[ancient hornet]

that can only mean Apple is preparing to rename itself "Fruit"

[hearty sundial]

Well I know one company that goes after others because they trademarked a "lion's paw".

I mean.. God would surely facepalm.

So what else will get trademarked? "Product" ?

Welp.

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/BenjiSales/status/1294025416601206784

Benji-Sales (@BenjiSales)

Last week xCloud confirmed to not support iOS and Microsoft publicly feuding with Apple

This week Fortnite removed off the app store while Epic publicly feuds with Apple

Seems like chunks of the gaming industry and Apple aren't exactly on the greatest of terms at the moment...

Likes

133

Twitter

[bronze axle]

Trademarks are frustrating.

It's more a flaw in the trademark system than a problem with the companies themselves. If they don't defend their trademarks to this insane degree, they risk losing them.

Remember when Bethesda sued Mojang for having a game called Scrolls? 🤦

[ancient hornet]

on the other hand

I think Bethesda has a room full of sharks disguised as lawyers and they get hungry often or something

because their legal team is super aggressive XD

[plucky pagoda]

Copyright you can just ignore it and decide to enforce it or not at any time

[hearty sundial]

I mean if you are paying to lawyers, you eventually need to sue someone.

I can understand non-generic trademarking but a GOD DAMN APPLE.

[plucky pagoda]

which is why some companies leave fan works alone

[zinc matrix]

it's part of a wider problem with america where corporations are simply untouchable deities

untouchable where they cannot be faulted lest the accuser be smited by their lawsuits

[hearty sundial]

Damnit America.

Why you be like that sometimes.

or all the time

[zinc matrix]

how they were founded IMO - a nation that wanted to avoid the British crown with regards to taxation and enforcement of religious practices

[plucky pagoda]

yeah, I'm going to chill and make a game on a stream for a bit.

something simple

[ancient hornet]

well granted, they got all the taxes and no ruling representation 😄

so it wasn't a good deal for them

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/Wario64/status/1294043516612444160

Wario64 (@Wario64)

Fortnite now banned on Google Play (Android) https://t.co/BLPtqFcLHZ

Twitter

update

tomorrow expect more stores to remove the game 🤔

Tencent owns the majority of the video game industry @zinc matrix

[ancient hornet]

more store? you mean Google?

wait no Google is already done

I don't see why the other stores would remove it

[rich quiver]

30%

[ancient hornet]

they don't do the 30% thing on the other stores

they just lowered the price

so I still don't see the issue

[rich quiver]

sony microsoft and nintendo haven't say anything on this

[ancient hornet]

ok if Nintendo bans a game because they decided to lower their MTX prices by 20% I'm not sure where the world is going

[delicate lark]

imagine sony removing Fortnite from its store after they invested in epic rofl

[ancient hornet]

wait, Epic must have a lawsuit ready for Google too!

maybe even a video? 😛

🍿

[delicate lark]

doubt

[rich quiver]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[delicate lark]

I think they won't care about google

cause there they can have their own launcher anyway

[ancient hornet]

I think they would care because they did the "two payment processors" trick on them too

probably at least to be coherent on their behavior else Apple could counter attack on the basis they give Google a free pass on it

[delicate lark]

but their position against google is not as strong as it is against apple

[ancient hornet]

it isn't indeed

they do complain how Google makes it scarier and harder to sideload apps though

[hearty sundial]

Epic iOS incoming 😛

[foggy path]

Weren't some companies circumventing the no custom payments thing on those platforms by selling their own currency which the users could then use :P

[ancient hornet]

V-Bucks?

I don't think this works 😛

[foggy path]

lol yeah

the limits exist purely to ensure the platform gets max money tbh

then again, not charging anything for a f2p game that your platform is used to distribute on a massive scale... it kinda seems like they should get some form of payment for it

[hearty sundial]

Thats what I mean too.

[ancient hornet]

well the thing is

I'm sure Epic wouldn't bother trying to hook their payment processor in the first place

if the fee wasn't 30%

[hearty sundial]

Exposure can only make artists continue on living 😛

[ancient hornet]

also technically, Apple still benefits from a totally free app because :

• users paid for those iPhones a LOT
• the iPhone perceived value is increased by the rich and broad library of software on the AppStore
• developers pay a fee (although I admit it's tiny 😄 )

[hearty sundial]

I slightly don't agree that people bought iphones just to play Fortnite.

This is not a Bloodborne situation.

[stable cargo]

How do I post to looking for talet board? i cant find any info

[ancient hornet]

I never said that

[hearty sundial]

Oh.

[ancient hornet]

I said that Apple benefits even from free apps on the store

[hearty sundial]

"also technically, Apple still benefits from a totally free app because :

• users paid for those iPhones a LOT" sounded like that to me so. Sorry.

Yeah but what I mean is, people surely had iphones before Fortnite.

[ancient hornet]

by that I mean that the amount users paid for the phones should be largely enough to pay the maintenance of the AppStore

[hearty sundial]

I don't think they gained alot from phone sales because Fortnite got in.

[ancient hornet]

you focus too much on Fortnite here

Fortnite is just a soldier in the bigger scale of things 😛

[hearty sundial]

If we want to focus on a bigger scale, then we could just say "Companies have billions".

[ancient hornet]

and there are laws against anticompetitive behavior

supposedly Apple has 60% of the market in the US, that puts them largely in range of a monopoly lawsuit 😄

[hearty sundial]

Is it really anticompetitive? 30% payment is not invented by Apple. It was standard for quite a while 😛

The thing is, other people will mistrust your company now.

Thats why Google was like "meh, leave me out of this, go away".

[ancient hornet]

if Apple falls, Google will have to follow

[hearty sundial]

You make the deal, breaking it can't be justified by your own actions.

O'well. In the end people will play Fortnite less.

or probably buy it in Epic Games Mobile Store.

[ancient hornet]

you cannot do that on iPhone though

[hearty sundial]

Epic iOS incoming 😛

[ancient hornet]

they did mention making their own app store in the lawsuit supposedly

[hearty sundial]

There should be a bigger reason to even make a system to get direct payments from costumers.

I am sure Epic knew the risks of breaking a big contract with a big company.

[ancient hornet]

they didn't write that 65 page lawsuite in the hour after the app was removed for sure

[hearty sundial]

Yap.

[ancient hornet]

The idea that a large platform like iOS can only have apps loaded through a market place controlled by the hardware manufactured is clearly in violation of the spirit of anti-trust laws.

However there's no legal precedent on this because no one with deep enough pockets to fight Apple has been angry enough to do it yet.

[hearty sundial]

Or a video. 😛

[stable cargo]

lmao they only give you 30 seconds to type it or it gets cancelled

[hearty sundial]

Skintillion, you supposed to copy paste stuff in there. 😛

Prepare your stuff beforehand.

[stable cargo]

yea i realize that now haha

[hearty sundial]

I agree that making a product, and then forcing people to be locked into the system YOU made is just bullying everyone.

My father got an iPAD and I have never heard of the programs in it and they are so terrible I am like "Dad.. why the fuck did you buy ipad again?"

[stable cargo]

"its easy to use" i cant stand that answer

[hearty sundial]

They are so badly designed I can't even help him most of the time with problems.

Yeah it ain't. The stuff you have to use JUST TO connect a USB and the files in it is INSANE.

[soft night]

seems like google followed on apple footsteps

[hearty sundial]

All will fall.

Soon we will have Epic Games phones in our hands.

I mean come on, they can use Unreal to make iOS.

[soft night]

Tom Warren showed image of Windows Mobile where Fortnite was

[hearty sundial]

I even have the advertisement ready: "Would you like to have an unrealistic phone? ;)"

Yap, surely there are bigger stuff going on behind the scenes.

[ancient hornet]

meh

[hearty sundial]

I agree.

[ancient hornet]

I find that dubious (the Epic Phone thing 😄 )

[hearty sundial]

Come on man, it would be epic.

[ancient hornet]

seems a little "unrealistic" as a goal

[hearty sundial]

It would come with predownloaded Fortnite.

kek.

[ancient hornet]

I see Epic/Tim behavior as REALLY bold

[soft night]

https://twitter.com/tomwarren/status/1294046249595936773?s=20

Tom Warren (@tomwarren)

the best place to play Fortnite on mobile

Twitter

[ancient hornet]

but not foolish 😛

[hearty sundial]

to be honest with epic online services etc, expect alot of mobile stuff coming too.

[bronze axle]

It would be funny if Apple was in on this the whole time and it was actually a coordinated PR stunt. First Epic looks good for standing up to Apple, then Apple lowers the App Store cut for everyone and is redeemed.

Just a bit of fun speculation and quite a stretch, mind you.

[ancient hornet]

so their goal was Google all along?

[hearty sundial]

That COULD work if companies in the world did not want ALL the money for THEMSELVES.

But I don't think companies are friendly with each other that much.

[ancient hornet]

honestly, I like what Epic does

but if it was to make "as much money as possible"

I'm not sure I wouldn't want to invest in them XD

they even flat lowered the prices of Fortnite by 20% across the board to make a point?

[hearty sundial]

all companies do scheming behind, noone has angel wings here 😛

[ancient hornet]

they got their major app banned to make a point?

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/FNBRHQ/status/1294044676891316226/photo/1

Mikey - Fortnite Leaks (@FNBRHQ)

Google’s Statement.

Full Article: https://t.co/tj1jD1WCQj

Likes

605

Twitter

[ancient hornet]

I'm not sure they'll end up with more money in the end than not

if they success in lowering the big stores cut to a reasonable amount, I'd be happy

if they somehow manage to gain money in the process, I'll be impressed for them 😄

[hearty sundial]

As I said, this may not be for the money because they already have so much

Epic probably wanting to have a mobile store too because EGS was a success even for such a rocky start.

[bronze axle]

If we take Tim at his word, the ultimate goal may genuinely be to get all the other big players to reduce their cuts.

[ancient hornet]

If we take Tim at his word, the ultimate goal may genuinely be to get all the other big players to reduce their cuts.
yeah I'm really starting to believe it's that

[hearty sundial]

Being "good" and being "profitable" doesn't need to be in same sentence.

[ancient hornet]

because the "we'll make all the money" angle doesn't have at all a clear path to reach that goal for Epic that way

[hearty sundial]

"If you can't make all the money, make sure others can't either" 😛

[bronze axle]

Yeah. I don't see this just being a money grab. Evidence suggests they don't need it.

[ancient hornet]

or they go for the REALLY long run and say "we'll WE are a kind of tax on all game devs anyway so the more the better!"

[rich quiver]

the first paragraph say is not for the money in the lawsuit

[ancient hornet]

but this helps all engine makers equally really

[bronze axle]

Tim's been really passionately arguing for lower cuts for a long time, and EGS was their first step towards putting their money where their mouth is.

They managed to affect Discord (when Discord was still trying to sell games).

[hearty sundial]

I wonder why Discord Store failed though. Seemed to have cute very smol games for smol prices.

I thought it would be a huge market with all the users.

[bronze axle]

Yeah, I still don't know the full story there.

[rich quiver]

he already argue with the different stores before all of them ignore him

[ancient hornet]

they had no killer app

[hearty sundial]

but they had millions of users, you would expect it was a good income at least with all those games.

was the store a "Nitro only" thing?

[bronze axle]

It was really interesting to watch. When the store model didn't look good, Discord pivoted to letting developers create store channels in their servers to sell directly to their communities.

You can still do that, but they're no longer enabling commerce for new developers, which is not a good sign for their game dev initiative.

The deployment and testing pipeline tools are still active (we use them for alpha testing), but I don't think they're long for this world.

I'm pivoting our pipeline to Steam after we ship our next build.

[foggy path]

I wonder how GOG is in terms of the royalty cut and such

They seem to be doing Good Things in general

Never really looked into it tbh besides as just a person-who-buys-games

[bronze axle]

It's a bummer because I like their pipeline. It's pretty easy to set up and use, and the advantage of granting access to game branches based on Discord roles has a level of a convenience that can't be overstated.

[foggy path]

That does sound super handy

[bronze axle]

It's amazing because when one of our backers or close friends joins the server, I just assign a role and boom - they have access to alpha builds and the related hidden channels.

I've heard of developers creating bots that can grant Steam keys, but I haven't found any open-source examples to dig through and learn from.

[rich quiver]

@foggy path 30%

[foggy path]

I guess they're just going by what everyone else is doing

[rich quiver]

correct

the same way steam started

[foggy path]

Now that I actually have a game project that has some minor potential of maybe selling at least more than two copies probably gonna have to look into this some more :p

Not sure if anyone's really been lobbying CDPR to reduce the %

[hearty sundial]

I will buy your game twice ❤️

[rich quiver]

@foggy path nope

[foggy path]

@zinc matrix yep lol

[rich quiver]

gog and follow industry standers

[foggy path]

it has got pretty positive feedback so far and we have lots of ideas on how to make it a "proper" game instead of a gamejam thing

[rich quiver]

also third party stores are also 30%

[bronze axle]

Can't wait to ship my first game on Steam, just to know what the entire end-to-end process is like.

[foggy path]

as for GOG, it would be interesting to see what would happen if they reduced their cut

personally I try to buy my games through them when it's an option and it's not limited by something like multiplayer compatibility

[bronze axle]

I'm in the same boat. Finishing a tiny horror game that started at a game jam.

[ancient hornet]

gog loses a lot of money with too friendly customer practices 😄

supposedly

[rich quiver]

@foggy path they follow steam cut

[foggy path]

@ancient hornet it sounds plausible especially with that new refund policy

[rich quiver]

even do they problem with steam cut itself

[foggy path]

they got rid of the fair pricing thing they had I guess because they weren't making enough money to keep it going

[ancient hornet]

they also had a super friendly policy in regards to money conversion I think that cost them a lot?

[foggy path]

(basically they would credit you with GOG wallet balance you could use for purchases to offset regional pricing)

[arctic fossil]

Just saw the epic video war declaration on Apple. Chapeau and good luck!

[proven thorn]

I believe Discord has dropped the game angle and are now focusing on commincation overall

Which is still a pretty big thing

[zinc matrix]

part of me kind of wished discord maintained its gamer angle. discord is a little problematic too - some of its staff are racist and pedophilic

as are its users, but if the platform were gamer oriented, it would alienate non-gamers enough to not want to get involved with the cesspool that discord can be at times

[north torrent]

Discord is a cancer.

[foggy path]

tbh this is the first time I hear that

I had heard they were cracking down on racism on servers but that's about it up to now

[zinc matrix]

there may still be some bad apples within management

[north torrent]

I don't think I would touch Discord if I lived in an English speaking country.

[foggy path]

What does that have to do with the language? :D

[zinc matrix]

i wonder why you're using it - does being in china give you some sort of immunity or something?

[foggy path]

We could all go on IRC! I mean I'd much rather go on IRC tbh

But everyone's on Discord nowadays and not on IRC :p

[zinc matrix]

i'd rather go on irc too but it is dying, fast

[north torrent]

I live in China. That means every person around me speaks Chinese. I speak English.

Even introverts need some level of communication with the world at some point. Simple as that.

[foggy path]

heh

you could go on.. twitter!

[north torrent]

The rise of Discord killed off all my previous communities.

[foggy path]

or I mean... learn chinese I guess? :p

I barely use finnish for anything nowadays and I don't particularly care

[zinc matrix]

ah, interesting
i've wanted to learn russian to get involved with a fandom community but some russians i can't bear to talk to because of political differences

different platforms dominate in russia (e.g. yandex instead of google, vkontakte alongside or instead of facebook) in part due to politics

[north torrent]

I think the upsides of not speaking the language outweigh the downsides.

There is a certain inner peace that comes from living in a country and not speaking the language.

[foggy path]

I'd just learn russian to be able to do a cheeki breeki joke accent

lol

grocery store barely counts as speaking tbh

"hi" "bye"

unlike in the US where you exchange all the pointless pleasantries

[zinc matrix]

one of the few mainstream platforms i like is tumblr but i may have to quit it for personal reasons

[foggy path]

are you sure they don't think you're a crazy person if you talk too much

[north torrent]

I know this foreigner who speaks fluent Chinese. Been told by the principal at the school his Chinese is better than a lot of the Chinese teachers. The guy is married to a Chinese girl and has a Chinese kid.

But it is super common for him to go up to someone at a store and speak to them in Chinese, and they will answer him back in broken English. Then he will say something back in Chinese, and they will answer him back in broken English.

One time he asked the girl working at Starbucks a question in Chinese and she said, "I no speak English"...

[foggy path]

It's probably fairly common for tourists to know some basic phrase you'd use in starbucks :P

or chinaboos

or something

lol

[north torrent]

Obviously I can't judge the dudes Chinese, as I don't speak Chinese. But I trust the opinion of the principal of the school, as she is in a high position in Education and from Beijing where they are more strict about speaking Chinese a certain way.

If a high ranking norther Chinese person says he speaks better Chinese than most of the native Chinese people in the area, I am going to believe her assessment on it.

[foggy path]

I'm not sure what this has to do with people replying in broken english though

[zinc matrix]

maybe if you're of a particular race, you're not supposed to speak certain languages

[north torrent]

I'm just saying that I assume he addressed them in proper Chinese.

[zinc matrix]

as per some stupid norm

[foggy path]

I mean I would get it if they started arguing about it

[north torrent]

Unlike me, who just uses the most simple, "Hello" "Menu Please" "Yes" "Yes" "Thank You".

[foggy path]

If I go somewhere and they said something like that my response would just be "oh that's fine I speak X just fine"

if they still insist on being pricks about it.. then yeah it's just some asshole I guess...

[north torrent]

Well, the dude is a bit of an asshole, so when he argued with Chinese people I assumed it was mostly his personality and not them.

But I really have no idea.

[foggy path]

haha

yeah I mean there's a hundred reasons why someone might reply back in english so I wouldn't really attribute anything on just something like that but who knows

I know my friends who've been to japan and speak japanese, the japanese people talk back to them in broken english because they're being polite

they think it's polite to attempt to converse in your language

obviously it's a different culture thing in china vs japan but just an example

[north torrent]

I generally don't talk at all.

It honestly really annoys me when foreigners keep speaking English at people who clearly don't understand them.

[zinc matrix]

english imperialism

[foggy path]

I don't know what else would you do though

[north torrent]

Not at all, just a habit to keep talking.

[foggy path]

You can try speaking english and hope they might understand a word or two

[north torrent]

Chinese people do it to me all the time to, but it just doesn't annoy me.

Also, technology makes it super easy to translate stuff.

Just some people can't stop themselves from verbally saying everything even when they have the stuff translated right there on their phone.

I think it is just a habit of being verbal creatures.

[proven thorn]

@north torrent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80 - Like this?

[zinc matrix]

you found the relevant video

[north torrent]

I used to go to this sushi place and I would ask for the menu in Chinese and the guy would answer back, "you want the menu". And he would do that for almost anything I said just to practice his English or something. He just liked to repeat stuff back to me in English.

Why is that guy carrying a fish with him?

[proven thorn]

Because he's proud of the fish they catch in his prefecture

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/reckless/status/1294023370468659200

nilay patel (@reckless)

Spotify statement applauding Epic for taking on Apple:

Retweets

130

Likes

618

Twitter

[foggy path]

Bahaha

Spotify is not much better

They're constantly getting flak from artists about paying out so poorly, and their CEO is saying stupid things like "you just have to work harder"

[zinc matrix]

and they remove music too and so many people are using them instead of keeping music

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/Slasher/status/1294073105376333825

Rod Breslau (@Slasher)

BREAKING: Epic has filed suit against Google as well

Twitter

this one it will end up in a lost but apple one is the valid one

[north torrent]

Wait... so people are supposed to be paid for having a hobby, Mr. Zomg?

I have worked with Irish teachers before and certain things I simply had to say, "I have no idea what you are trying to say right now..."

[thorny dock]

To give Spotify credit though they did try this exact same lawsuit on Apple and failed, maybe they could pay better if they didn’t have such a financial chastity belt on them

[foggy path]

Do they though?

Spotify is free unless you have a subscription

[thorny dock]

Still absolutely disrespectful to the ceo to say that

[foggy path]

and I don't think you do subscriptions through Apple or Google for Spotify's service 🤔

[thorny dock]

You pay through Apple to get a subscription on mobile

[rich quiver]

https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1294076353965428736

Tim Sweeney (@TimSweeneyEpic)

Today, Apple said Epic is seeking a special deal, but that's not true. We're fighting for open platforms and policy changes equally benefiting all developers. And it'll be a hell of a fight! https://t.co/R5A48InGTg

Twitter

[foggy path]

Ah, in that case

[thorny dock]

Yes you could be smart and go sign up on their website instead but most wont

[rich quiver]

more lawsuits

🤔

https://twitter.com/ZhugeEX/status/1294076413042196481

Daniel Ahmad (@ZhugeEX)

Epic also going after Google for monopolistic practices in regards to Android.

Examples below

https://t.co/BZbbVfRHdj

Twitter

[thorny dock]

When are we going to get :TimBatman: ?

[rich quiver]

he will sue every store 👀

[bronze axle]

UE5 is so far away from any of this.

[light lodge]

Also so far away from being released regardless

[north torrent]

Just a public service announcement. Making jokes about Bill Gates that involve Microsoft are no longer funny. It has been over a decade since he has had anything to do with how that company runs.

[hasty cargo]

protracted war

trying to lower the publisher cut didn't work, time for direct attak

[wet smelt]

sweet

[rich quiver]

https://www.androidcentral.com/google-stopped-oneplus-pre-installing-fortnite-its-phones?utm_source=ac_tw&utm_medium=tw_card&utm_content=92588&utm_campaign=social

[fluid bloom]

da fuq 😄

[pearl elk]

Is it just me or is Fortnite not on play store anymore

[fluid bloom]

it was removed

Epic is suing google and apple

https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368079/fortnite-epic-android-banned-google-play-app-store-rule-violation

https://www.polygon.com/2020/8/13/21366455/fortnite-ios-apple-app-store-gone-removed-v-bucks-change-discount

I mean, if Google nor Apple provide zero infrastructure for v-bucks sales, why should they get a cut? 🤔

[pearl elk]

So its still on PS4 right, not sure what the rules are on consoles, its that same 30% isnt it?

that industry standard 30% was always for publishers, somewhere along the line... bout the time Steam came in... it became a store cut

but publishers provide localisation, testing, etc etc etc

stores do not, they might test your app to see if it runs and doesnt violate terms but thats hardly QA

These stores even tout their feature set... self publish on our store, then its like why the f you takin a publisher cut for nothin

Its even worse if you have a publisher cuz you got a 30% standard cut ontop of the 30% standard cut

Thats why so many Publishers started their own stores

[gilded lichen]

What do you think about this Epic/Apple case? I want Epic to win, this will affect industry and other corps will have to drop their rates and give more money to developers like greedy valve.

[pearl elk]

I think thats what Epic are hoping that it'll have a knock on effect, if Epic wins its a big win for gamers

[gilded lichen]

Why for gamers? For developer - yes.

[pearl elk]

Because developers dont have to gouge gamers to recoup that 30%

They might but in my experience my devs are pretty modest and would rather take something more like 5-10% and leave the rest in gamers pockets

[plucky pagoda]

The case is almost secondary to the PR war that at this point seems like it's already over in red wedding fashion.