Trust me
#lounge
zinc matrix
covert nebula
i'm not making an mmo
zinc matrix
In john we trust
covert nebula
mmo is way beyond scope
zinc matrix
Mmo is way beyond coping
north torrent
Anyone who tells you they will work on a game with you is lying. They will always be too busy. Just work along, Mr. Kaffeine.
covert nebula
it's limited number of players with matches type of game
i really don't want to code databases for this game
zinc matrix
Writing code is for nolifers
covert nebula
so you have other people writing your game?
covert nebula
๐
north torrent
You really shouldn't take anything Karol says too seriously, Mr. Kaffeine.
zinc matrix
Bro koffeina chan
covert nebula
๐คฃ
covert nebula
nah it's the alcohol
zinc matrix
Oh
covert nebula
for me i mean
zinc matrix
Nice
covert nebula
it got me willing to talk to people and stuff
zinc matrix
You drinking your regrets away
covert nebula
nah man i was out drinking with my colleagues to celebrate
project is finally shipped with all the hotfixes that it needed, we're basically done until we need to update the codebase if the api updates break it, which is not supposed to happen in the first place
anyway nice meeting you guys, heading to bed
have a good night!
rugged storm
north torrent
Oh no! No Discord!
pearl elk
Discord isnt working... panic
north torrent
What are you going to do without Discord, Mr. Olympus?
pearl elk
I dunno, my whole life depends on it
north torrent
Well, I guess it is time to go die.
pearl elk
Today is a good day to die
pearl elk
President of the fake news ๐
zinc matrix
China and Russia love to have tRump as US President for 4 more years, maybe Zuckerberg too ๐
pearl elk
Im voting for Dwayne Johnson
Then the US can give all these other countries the peoples elbow
sage tendon
Everyone said that Bush jr was the anti christ but...
fluid bloom
fluid bloom
though now apparently Trump signed a bill condemning China for building the concentration camps
sounds like Bolton forced his hand ๐
pearl elk
Sounds like Trump is still a reality TV star
They wrote this years storylines already so we just play em out
foggy path
my apartment's also hitting 28 C :|
But this year I'm armed with the knowledge that legally you're entitled to a reduction in rent if it hits 32... which it definitely did for weeks last summer
fluid bloom
last night in general was shit too
pearl elk
jeebus where was that reduction when my apartment was at 40c
fluid bloom
hot, humid, noisy
pearl elk
surely not an Australian thing
fluid bloom
I had a dream where my teeth fell out
weather outside was funky too, woke up at around 3 and it was completely yellow outside
sage tendon
Just watched the Assassins Creed movie, what a shitty movie ๐ฉ
north torrent
Are you a masochist, Mr. Remco?
pearl elk
north torrent
Almost time to go home.
oblique trellis
im sure the upcoming division movie will also make watching an old mattress burn more enjoyable
north torrent
I think it is about time they just go an entire year not making any new movies or new videogames.
Let the rest of us catch up with the old stuff we haven't watched.
pearl elk
Better off watching the Farcry movie
fluid bloom
max payne movie is odd too
pearl elk
They atleast tried with that one though
fluid bloom
"hey let's take this film noir type game and make it into a NOT noir type action movie"
or whatever the detective genre of that type is called
they completely disregarded the thematic side of the game
pearl elk
It was closer to the theme than Mario Bros ๐
north torrent
Why no Ryzen 3700xt?
foggy path
Intel pls giev Skulltrail
pearl elk
Intel dont care about desktop anymore, theyre full steam to mobile
north torrent
That Mario Brothers movie was pretty awesome though...
Can't remember what it was about... but it was a trip...
foggy path
it's funny that Intel would focus on mobile because now ARM is kinda pushing to desktop ๐ค
pearl elk
yes well any movie with Dennis Hopper is pretty awesome
north torrent
Who's Dennis Hopper?
north torrent
I was high during all of those movies...
pearl elk
so was he ๐
north torrent
So high people don't remember high people? Sounds like a good theory.
soft night
pearl elk
Lakefield thats the one, far more interesting that Tigerlake
soft night
Coffee lake is more superir
north torrent
I'm waiting for LakeLake.
pearl elk
Im waiting for Frozen Lake
pearl elk
"Instead, a 3D-packaging technology called Foveros can stack the components, including the DRAM, on top of each other, saving on space."
Most innovative thing to come out of Intel in quite awhile
north torrent
But can it run Crysis?
pearl elk
My toilet can run Crysis
north torrent
But do you have toilet paper?
pearl elk
its all digital so no
north torrent
Digital toilet paper is not compatible with analog poop...
near shard
Does anybody have references to good tutorials or courses for allowing in-game world building/crafting? I know Unreal can do it because of Fortnite but i wonder if it can do it on like Fallout 4 level.
Still new to the system so im just fumbling around the internet loooking for information lol
north torrent
There is a marketplace asset that does that sort of.
near shard
Really? Do you know what it's called? I'm at work right now so I can't pull the market up.
north torrent
If I find it I will tell you.
near shard
Thanks
foggy path
^ this was the one I was thinking of as well, it was free at some point
north torrent
That probably explains why I have it.
Can't imagine myself buying it... But who knows what I did after that 5th vodka...
north torrent
I would just go to the Marketplace, search 'build' and see if any of those have things you want.
Probably won't find something exactly like you want, but you can start deconstructing the different things and learn how to make your own.
Not sure about you, but I find learning from tearing apart an existing project to be helpful.
foggy path
I'm 32 and I've only been drunk once... this was when we decided to get drunk with my ex just for the hell of it lol
near shard
I've tried that but never really know where to start tearing lol
foggy path
we had a laught but never really felt like doing it again
north torrent
I've only drunk to the point of vomiting 4 times in my life.
foggy path
I hope you've learned to not take it that far, it doesn't sound healthy :D
near shard
Yeah, I suppose some might call me boring, i never get drunk or use drugs or smoke cigarettes. It's not because i stand on any moral high ground or anything. I just don't like the idea of not being fully in control of myself. Be it through inebriation or addiction.
north torrent
I'm pretty good at knowing my limit. If you compare it to the number of times I've been drinking, you would see that 4 times is a very low number.
pearl elk
yeah only tear as much as you need too
pearl elk
There are drugs which arnt addictive aye
foggy path
I also don't really see the appeal of getting drunk, alcohol doesn't really do anything for me in that sense
near shard
True, i know some aren't addictive. I just dont want anything that doesn't leave me in full control of my body and all my senses.
north torrent
I have never went out in public and drank alcohol or did drugs. It is always at my house, friends' house, or families' house.
pearl elk
You should try weed, total control is on you
zinc matrix
@north torrent lmao i was drugged in school few times
pearl elk
your stomach might complain but just ignore it ๐
near shard
At most I'll have a single margarita in a day lol. Just to docial drink.
foggy path
I'd probably try weed if it was legal lol
north torrent
You are not a real person to me, Karol. Don't at me, I don't care.
zinc matrix
why not
pearl elk
Ive done far more stupid shit on alcohol than anything else
Karol is just a male Karen ๐
north torrent
I've only done weed and vicodin.
Vicodin + vodka... that was the deepest sleep I have ever had in my life.
pearl elk
shoulda had a side of Adderall
north torrent
It wasn't like waking up from sleep... it felt like I had just popped back into existing after being away from the world for some undisclosed amount of time... No memories or anything, just waking up from a black void...
I only had the vicodin left over from a time it was prescribed to me for an actual medical thing...
I wouldn't spend the money buying that stuff just to take it recreationally...
zinc matrix
Mao chan why you dont like me
north torrent
Did you get that second link, Mr. Pendant?
near shard
It was just kinda engrained in me as a kid. I grew up in a military family, did alot of martial arts. My uncle raised me. He always preached about having total control of your senses, total dominance over your own life, body, and mind. Because if you didn't and you were in our field of work, you could get hurt, or worse, accidentally hurt someone else.
The only drug I've ever taken that has a heavy effect is when I've had my wisdom teeth taken out, and when i needed morphine in the hospital a few different times. But in my mind that was okay because it was such a controlled environment I didn't have to be in total control in that moment. its also hard to stay concious when you're bleeding out lmfao
I did! Thank you!
north torrent
^ That right there is part of the reason, Karol.
zinc matrix
should i write Mao kun
pearl elk
I never had morphine, most I had was some medium strength codeine
guess I get the moral high ground here ๐
north torrent
If you want to have a conversation with me you should learn to speak like an adult.
north torrent
You are 16, don't lie to me.
near shard
Morphine is... unique lol.
north torrent
If you want to use Japanese honorifics, then it is Mฤo San or Mฤo Sama.
foggy path
Mao-tan uwu
near shard
Mercenaries and the like call it Ambrosia. Nectar of the gods. You could have 6 holes in you, pump enough of that in your veins and you feel like you're on cloud nine.
Also. Even I know that the uwu was unnecessary there.
zinc matrix
Mao senpai
north torrent
Mฤo Sensei is ok, not Senpai.
zinc matrix
but i dont have that letter in my keyboard ฤ
north torrent
Anyways, if being in control was ingrained into you as a child, that seems like the absolute best reason to go get stupid drunk and high at the same time.
near shard
Shi-sho?
north torrent
I can't actually think of a better reason...
near shard
Nah lol. I have alot of respect for my Uncle. Now if my biologicals told me sumn I'd definitely have rebelled as a kid. But I would always follow my uncles word. He was the reason I had a home growing up.
These are interesting assets
I wonder if there's a way to integrate them together
pearl elk
My Uncle Bruce was a good man too bad what happened to him and his son Brandon
north torrent
You would have to look into how they were build to see how to combine them together. I haven't looked at how those assets were constructed.
zinc matrix
call him my little penguin
near shard
Lol
zinc matrix
yeah bro
north torrent
If you rob a bank together, guess who is going to get identified first.
near shard
Probably him considering how often he forgets to wear his damn facemask
north torrent
Always wear a mask when you go to a bank.
near shard
I keep having to turn the truck around lmao
pearl elk
Karols are too obvious even when masked
near shard
I should probably just start putting them in the console
north torrent
That's the one thing I am the most looking forward too when this epidemic is over, having a legitimate excuse to wear masks into banks.
near shard
XD
zinc matrix
Onyx why he calls you Karol
north torrent
Have you ever walked into a bank with your face half covered before the corona-virus epidemic? It isn't exactly the best way to start a bank robbery...
near shard
I haven't the foggiest. I'm fairly certain that's a womans name.
north torrent
Mr. Pendant uses way too much punctuation and capital letters to be a Karol.
pearl elk
John is a Karol
near shard
But I'm also certain ive been called worse
north torrent
Karol is a male name in the Netherlands.
near shard
Oh really?
north torrent
One of those Viking countries... I may have got it wrong...
But it certainly is a male name in parts of Europe.
Maybe Denmark... Finland...
pearl elk
near shard
An abbreviation of Carl maybe.
fluid bloom
Karolus Rex starts playing
north torrent
Just totally different languages.
near shard
Yes!
near shard
Though i believe its Carolus Rex.
zinc matrix
but shes a girl
near shard
It's an exaggeration of Charles
fluid bloom
true
zinc matrix
Rex? like dinosaur?
pearl elk
Kharlos
fluid bloom
rex as in king
pearl elk
Karolosaurus Rex
near shard
Forgive me if this sounds insulting in anyway but for some reason when i read your name i just picture a caveman proudly thumping his chest and pointing at a pile of sticks or something. @fluid bloom "Jon! I make!"
fluid bloom
jonimake was the username the university of helsinki gave me
fluid bloom
also your nick is annoying
north torrent
That name is obnoxious.
zinc matrix
you are obnoxious and invalid
cy@
whats wrong with being invalid
you are canceled
near shard
I'm just named after a necklace. One of my most prized possessions.
I surely hope not. I just started.
pearl elk
Im just named after a giant lump of dirt and rock
north torrent
Which is basically what you are.
pearl elk
I am rock? ๐ฎ
near shard
I also think it could work because if I name my company Onyx-Pendant Gaming, then shortened thats OP Gaming. Like Overpowered Gaming. Or some such nonsense, I haven't truly decided on a name yet.
pearl elk
north torrent
Anyways, weren't we talking about giving the player the ability to build inside your game.
Did you figure out what you were looking for?
near shard
I think I'm going to have to simply wait until payday and then sift through the various assets at my disposal in the marketplace.
I have saved the links you sent though, to save time.
north torrent
Are you going to have a goose in your game?
near shard
I want the world, friend. Just like everyone else. But I'll take everything one step at a time. I'm still new to the engine. Buying assets will probably help me learn how to make my own.
zinc matrix
sure sure
near shard
Also, i didn't plan on geese, no.
north torrent
Are you going to have a windmill?
north torrent
Do you use it to power industrial revolution era machines?
near shard
That would be something.
foggy path
I don't think a player build system is actually that hard to build... it kind of depends exactly what you're looking to do, but basically you'd just place assets into the world when the player clicks on something and that's about it
north torrent
Have you ever milled wheat into flour?
foggy path
Of course a very fleshed out system is sort of complex
So it might be easy to prototype one yourself and maybe buy an asset once you know what you need
north torrent
It is more getting the pieces to rotate in a non frustrating way and snap to a grid or whatever that takes more time.
But you could prototype the basics and then look and see how they tackled those challenges later on.
near shard
The system I'm looking to be able to build with would have to be quite complex. I'm still learning the engine. So i probably won't jump straight into my dream game as since my dream game is an mmo that would likely take a whole team. But it's good to learn the capabilities of an engine early on.
near shard
Most likely in the near future I'll continue on taking courses, develop a few small games, attempt to build my portfolio.
north torrent
Focus on one thing and do that well.
What part of games are you most passionate about. I would make a small game with that as the primary focus.
near shard
I have an idea that i think hasn't actually been done yet, or if it has, it hasn't been done well enough in practice to catch popularity. So I'm excited to learn whether or not it is actually possible.
north torrent
I personally like interactive dialogue and storytelling in games. So that is pretty much all my game is.
If I were to try to focus on platforming and combat and crafting then everything in my game would just either not get finished or be mediocre.
pearl elk
Maybe try to build the most simplest version of the idea
north torrent
Can't revolutionize game dialogue until you know how to build a user interface, for example.
near shard
Fair enough.
zinc matrix
i like you El Mao
near shard
As do I.
north torrent
The feeling is not mutual, Karol.
Mr. Pendant is ok in my book.
zinc matrix
wow
north torrent
If you ever were to change your ways and start being nice to people, Karol, I wouldn't hold a grudge. I don't care about the past.
pearl elk
I dont care about the pest ๐
near shard
I have to go now. I have rougly 2 & 1/4 hours left in the work shift, and the sun is rising, my boss will arrive soon. I should at the very least pretend to be responsible.
Have a good day
north torrent
Plot-twist, Mr. Olympus is his boss...
pearl elk
lol dont wish that on the poor person
north torrent
I wonder if anyone has ever been caught slacking because his/her boss was a member of the Discord he/she was slacking in...
pearl elk
Caught slacking in slackers
foggy path
my "professional" social media is detached from my "less professional" social media
north torrent
It is natural for 16 years olds to think it is cool to not have respect. I cannot argue that point.
zinc matrix
true
foggy path
although it doesn't take a huge amount of research to connect them - at least it isn't immediately obvious
so most of my coworkers have no idea how much I'm slacking off or what kind of dumbass memes I'm posting
north torrent
I'm not making them for you.
And I have no faith in your project ever getting finished.
pearl elk
bleh MMOs are overrated
foggy path
Ultima Online > *
pearl elk
name an MMO that isnt just glorified spreadsheets
north torrent
The fact that Karol thinks his current state is 'not much work left' shows how little he takes this thing seriously, Mr. Olympus.
north torrent
Should I call my game almost done because I have a placeholder character that can walk around the world?
Or should I call that the starter project that opens up when you first open the engine?
zinc matrix
idk what you mean, but ill upload the game online in a week
my game targets specific audience
They Will Play
pearl elk
Its a shame the general population doesnt understand game development much, Ive seen so many people pretending to have done alot of work and all theyve done is stitched acouple of MP packs together
zinc matrix
yeah
north torrent
I've had too many developers show me a 'prototype' but all they have is a character walking around a world with some pretty assets...
Walking around isn't a prototype...
Unless the game is a walking simulator. Then I guess it is. But if you tell me you are making a looter shooter and you don't have loots or shoots, it isn't a prototype.
pearl elk
Even if someone has walking/sprinting, shooting/slashing, FP/TP and a basic inventory... Thats not impressive
plenty of MP assets do all of that
north torrent
It is a few steps closer to a prototype though.
pearl elk
Not really because most people think game design is about copying another game
north torrent
But you still need a core loop.
pearl elk
I just want to see the unique things, I dont care about those sorts of things any game company can do blind folded
north torrent
But do AAA studios even think about that?
Do you think Assassin's Creed thinks about that?
pearl elk
Well at the time Assassins Creed first came about it had a fair bit of unique things and did continue to innovate abit as it went on
those selling points like when youre navigating crowds and your character dynamically moves or the parkour system. Riding a horse wasnt exactly in alot of the games at the time but that went on to become a thing many games do
then they had controlling the ships and whatnot, so they do sell it on its unique points more than how closely the core gamemode matches Farcry
north torrent
Playing Assassin's Creed Origins, I can't say I am sure where the 'fun' was supposed to be in the gameplay.
pearl elk
its alittle different in that scenario where youre developing franchise sequels
north torrent
I very much liked that game because I wanted to go look at every last building and explore the desert and just see pretty and historic things.
But I think the gameplay got lost in just adding more and more mechanics.
pearl elk
Yeah I can certainly see why that is, Ive fallen into the trap myself and I try to help others to avoid "everything games"
thats what I call it when you have mechanics just for the sake of "oh wouldnt it be cool if"
north torrent
I think a lot of mechanics are "well, AAA open world games in 2020 are expected to have this, so I guess throw it in"
pearl elk
if your player verbs arnt serving any purpose in the core gameplay loop why even bother, sure if you have some spare time to implement something but you really dont need to simulate horse gonads in every project
north torrent
I am getting tired of crafting in games that add it but don't make it fun.
pearl elk
yeah crafting has to be done with a purpose, if its to slow the player down, send them back to the safe space for awhile to regroup. It could be done really fast but on the fly so you can just get back into action. Many people will just go CRAFTING.... cuz it adds depth, done
north torrent
I am all for good crafting. I just feel like most crafting systems I have seen recently were just time wasters and not fun.
pearl elk
I could use The Last of Us as an example of one I felt where crafting was abit needless, it served a purpose and it was an attempt to make you feel prepared or to explore for crafty bits but in the end it falls flat. It becomes just a minor time sink that can get in the way of the flow
north torrent
A game like My Time at Portia is pretty much all crafting, and I like that game.
pearl elk
I really liked the transmogrifying cube in Diablo 2, its not like the crafting is super complex in that game, theres alot of different systems with runes and gems etc but its simple enough to just get it going and focus on whats important.
Its not like Minecraft where I have to build an oven to bake a cake to combine with bricks to imbue my armour with cake bricks
foggy path
This is why I never really got into vanilla MC... I want automation
:D
Mods make it infinitely more complex but also infinitely more fun
north torrent
For the kind of games I like, that are more story driven, I think if you can tie the work you put into crafting into feeling like you are doing something for the story, that alone can make a boring crafting system or customization system work.
But it is still better to make them interesting and fun.
I think if you were to craft the most overkill weapon ever, and a bunch of characters commented about how freaken overkill it was, that it would end up being worth it.
But that's more for a narrative driven type of player and not for all kinds of games.
pearl elk
I did like Dead Islands crafting, the weapon degradation might be alittle too much but I liked how the combinations of items made sense to the item you ended up crafting. It was always fun to craft something new and be like hey thats pretty unique rather than crafting item 1000/8457945
north torrent
Mass Effect Andromeda was 90% useless stuff that just tweaked stats like power... which is super boring...
But then there were a few really interesting weapon mods, where you could for example turn the bullets into a laser beam, or add a guided shot to said laser beam or bullets or grenades...
And then when you added in the mod that automatically reloaded your gun to a gun that doesn't use ammo but overheats, you realize that you can have a heat seeking laser that can shoot forever and hit a target around corners by aiming to the side of them...
Totally breaks the game it makes it so easy... But it was fun coming up with a combination of weapon parts that changed the actual dynamic of shooting people and in effect breaking the game.
carmine frigate
north torrent
Turn a fully automatic machine gun into a 3 round burst, or a shotgun into a 3 round burst or fully automatic... This stuff could have some really weird effects when you started adding in more combinations.
Shotgun that shoots a spread shot of multiple mini grenades that arch and stick on surfaces... then make it a fully automatic and maybe guided grenades... Really odd results...
mossy nexus
Not a fan of MMO's really, the compromise of story and interesting content to fit with having lots of players hasn't been resolved by any games I've saw so far.
north torrent
I would rather interact with npcs...
foggy path
At least for me I only really enjoyed MMO's when I played with friends
carmine frigate
nah i like humans
foggy path
There was little to no point for me in playing them solo
north torrent
I don't know any humans I like enough to want to play games with.
If there were better people I might play more multiplayer games.
foggy path
Literally any game mechanic in an MMO is done better by other games, so if you're not making use of the MMO aspect of the game, you might as well play something else :P
pearl elk
yeah MMOs are all about the social aspects which is why its so odd to attempt to build one solo
mossy nexus
I understand why others enjoy them, I just prefer my games that I play to actually have more unique stories and ideas. MMOs always have the same things for all players ad infinitum
carmine frigate
all MMOs are about hoarding
foggy path
The best MMO I played was PlanetSide 2 and that was an MMOFPS not an MMORPG lol
carmine frigate
its an MMORPGFPS
foggy path
well, that and Ultima Online... UO will always have a spot in my heart 
carmine frigate
cuz its also an RPG
foggy path
Is it an RPG? :P
mossy nexus
The most fun I've had in a MMO was in EverQuest.
foggy path
Oh, you have basic character classes but it's more like in any shooter with that aspect
You do gain skill points and you can use those to upgrade the classes or vehicles but that's about it
pearl elk
Some MMOs let you create quests for other people to play thats interesting, certainly more inline with what Id expect from social gaming
carmine frigate
its also with ranks and stuff its more involved than COD ranks right
foggy path
I think they added base building and some other aspects into it lately, haven't played in a while tho
north torrent
I say that I make 'story based' games to keep it simple in conversation. But in the end I don't feel like what I like in games or want to make has anything to do with having a good story. I think it mostly comes down to being able to interact with characters and have characters react to the things that I do in the world. Not a story with exposition, instigating event, rising action, climax, plot twist, falling action, resolution...
carmine frigate
with factions and clans
foggy path
yeah, it does the faction/clan thing a bit differently since each clan (or "outfit" as they're called) would usually just be on one particular faction
a lot of players have alts on other factions tho :D
carmine frigate
i thought it was also a bit of an rpg
foggy path
nah, it doesn't really have RPG aspects to it except the skill upgrading thing
carmine frigate
but i didnt play it much , like 10 hour most, prolly more like 3
booted it up 2 times with a year in between or something
500 player battles seemed fun to me, but didnt like how it played
north torrent
I hate the learning curve of having to learn a whole new upgrade system every time I play a new game... It's just a huge chore for me to have to go read this stuff and figure out where to put these points just so I can go back to doing what I actually wanted to be doing in the game...
foggy path
I thought it played pretty similar to other shooters at the time, ie. BF3 or something
It wasn't quite as polished in feel as BF3 but it was pretty good still
north torrent
I haven't been able to get into The Witcher 3 or Vampyr because of that. I have both installed but am barely 10% into either and never feel like loading them up and playing.
Just too much of a chore.
foggy path
yeah the thing I'd like with upgrade systems is being able to reset
because at the start you'll have no fucking idea what you're doing with it unless you spend ages figuring it out
and if you don't, you might be using it in a bad way because you didn't realize how it worked
north torrent
And at the start who really gives a damn about stats...
That's a mid to late game thing.
pearl elk
This is why I have an accountant
north torrent
Not because she looks good in a mini-skirt?
foggy path
I don't, my accounting is basically just going to my online bank and taking photos of the payments sent with my accounting app and then reporting that to the tax official lol
pearl elk
if she looked good in a mini-skirt Id be out of the job
hmm packt unreal game dev bundle aye
dusky shuttle
how do i find threads started by me on the forums? i don't see anything obvious
nevermind, it's in the about page
zinc matrix
i made weapons โค๏ธ https://i.imgur.com/54lGsbk.png
though they pretty simple..
But
ill learn more of blender and make them better once my playerbase starts growing
you good my mans?
foggy path
Yeah I probably would have been confused as shit with Unreal if I hadn't done a bit of stuff in Unity and otherwise before
Unity's docs on basic things are just million times better
pearl elk
If I were using Unity you might find me in a Unity lounge
zinc matrix
the bad thing bout unity is that their discord has no lounge
pearl elk
doesnt stop the community making one like the UE4 community did with this one
pearl elk
youre leaving?
zinc matrix
no
pearl elk
damn
zinc matrix
if the water was Karol then it wouldnt shower you
pearl elk
if only Discord worked the same way
zinc matrix
โค๏ธ no need to worry
foggy path
I'm not sure if my project ever reaches the stage of "makes indie income" lol
at that point we're going to have to decide how to split it fairly between the three people in the project :p
soft night
income that good thing to get
pearl elk
how much would be considered indie income, 10c?
soft night
what if it was 10k
foggy path
10k... dogecoins?
zinc matrix
@foggy path thats whhy you should make games alone
foggy path
Yeah except I'm not good at art so not really happening
zinc matrix
so you can gather all profit for urself - instead of 33% of nothing,, you take 100% of nothing
foggy path
Plus I usually lose interest, making one with friends is better because I have a reason to work on it lol
zinc matrix
yeah i only make simple weapon models
and bought building models
for 1usd
cus modeling etc not my cup of tea
foggy path
here's one of the new sprites that my friend's working on
zinc matrix
nice
foggy path
I'm not entirely sure why he owns an outfit like that
pearl elk
man how is the library still laggy
pearl elk
the scroll bar is just insane, it has no idea of the page size what so ever
I mean the one you dont use cuz youre a Unity user
the one all of us UE4 users have to put up with for our projects
pearl elk
so maybe go find relevance in your own tribe
clearly just getting in the way of the conversation here
foggy path
I think it's fine if he wants to chat but the walking-talking-15year-old-memelord shtick is getting a bit old
:P
pearl elk
looks like they might have tried to fix the thumbnails and it still hasnt helped, which sucks. Im so sick of the lag
Hey Im all for shitposts as long as they are funny
foggy path
lol yeah
north torrent
I want more Discord channels that are only adults... I work with children all day at my school...
foggy path
tbh most teens I know can have a normal conversation
pearl elk
yeah if I wanted to hang out with kids Id install tiktok
north torrent
Teenagers can have their Discords, I'm totally fine with that. I just wish there was one art Discord out there where adults could talk about... well... art and stuff.
pearl elk
but that begs the question, who here wants an almost 40yr old dude anywhere near their kids tiktok
so why are we letting them on Discord ๐
foggy path
lol
north torrent
I guess I'm too old to know what that is.
foggy path
everything I've seen from tiktok is just really bizarre shit
like this old dude who looks like a bum wearing diapers and pretends to be a baby?
pearl elk
maybe its the only way he could register an account, did he had a fake ID confirming his baby status? ๐
foggy path
I'm not sure if I should link it tbh
:D
I mean it's reasonably SFW but it's just... really kind of... weird lol
pearl elk
I guess the question then becomes, would you show it to your mum
foggy path
Probably
zinc matrix
no but i showed her my game and some random feedback from some guy
and she said Im Proud Of You
you will never get this mommy luve
north torrent
I'm sure I can buy that.
I keep working backwards from the story that my journalist character is unraveling and finding more and more corruption that leads to the events of this game.
foggy path
We were debating making the game just be the lucid dreams of the main character going psychotic lol
we'll have some FMV segments with him walking around just going crazy
maybe, maybe not, there's a lot of strange ideas like that atm which might end up being used or not :D
north torrent
Sounds too meta for me to make something like that. I might play something like that, but not write it.
pearl elk
If you can honestly impress game devs youre doing things right
north torrent
Everything in this game eventually leads back to the mafia, but then the mafia ends having done this stuff in order to fulfil a bargain they made with these factory owners who are engaged in insider trading with some of the current politicians.
zinc matrix
make a game that wont start until the user is drunk
foggy path
our storyline is more like a cheesy robocop/judge dredd mashup/ripoff :D
zinc matrix
webcam verification
foggy path
well, I wouldn't say ripoff I guess, those are just some of the inspiration
carmine frigate
my brother in law, i showed him some VR stuff some relaxed music things and things
he worked in psychic help something
north torrent
I don't have much of a 'storyline' but instead a crime with lots of clues that may or may not be found and could be in all sorts of different orders.
carmine frigate
his first VR experience was a psychosis simulator for work
didnt like it ๐
if u got an oculus u should try fantasynth btw
free demo, really chill
north torrent
Free, if you have an Oculus... which costs more than my life is worth on the black market...
zinc matrix
bros
foggy path
that's what you get for getting drunk so much Mao
carmine frigate
funny cuz i also got my oculus used ๐
foggy path
the value of your liver goes down
zinc matrix
is evil evil
north torrent
Used by who?
carmine frigate
some porn addict
pearl elk
Anyone wanna trade, my liver for a Valve Index
carmine frigate
he upgraded to index
foggy path
I've heard livers are worth thousands of dollars in the black market tho
carmine frigate
he actually had every VR set out there
foggy path
You could probably get a few indices
carmine frigate
yea u can sell human liver to voodoo priests
amount of alcohol doesnt matter, age does
north torrent
Or I could just not buy an Oculus...
pearl elk
So we should sell Karols liver to the voodoo priests
north torrent
Who needs to sell it, just give it away.
Though I guess we could buy this.
I'll take half and you take half.
pearl elk
Looks bit heavy to strap to your head
carmine frigate
but ppl stealin organs, thats some pretty messed up shit
hard to believe thats actually a thing
north torrent
China does it all the time, but people would rather make up fake things to go after China about...
carmine frigate
lol
north torrent
I'm just saying, they do enough real stuff that is horrible... why make up weird fake stuff?
carmine frigate
human rights and democracy are promoted to be the best thing on earth here i guess
not 100% sure on either of em
must be something better out there
foggy path
benevolent dictatorship is most efficient
not even joking
but good luck keeping a dictatorship benevolent :D
north torrent
Lets make up stories about how Ted Bundy liked to take dumps in public restrooms and not flush... That will make him look bad...
pearl elk
Really, eeww what a degenerate
carmine frigate
i think china is doin some things pretty right , but i honestly cant tell\
carmine frigate
bad stuff happens everywhere
north torrent
China brought itself out of being the world's punching bag 3rd world country and into being a world power.
carmine frigate
yea, not bein a joke first, human rights later ๐
north torrent
In an alternate universe without Mรกo China would be the Africa of the world.
So is it worth it... Maybe... maybe not... Not really sure on that myself.
carmine frigate
freedom of speech is ovverrated when you are starving ๐
north torrent
The starving part is the fault of the Japanese Empire... and the Japanese Empire was the fault of United States imperialism around the globe...
carmine frigate
i know nothing about any of that ๐
north torrent
But that is really a result of the age of European Imperialism, which started with the Portuguese and the Spanish who were the worlds punching bag at the time.
Before that, a lot of these African cities were much more wealthy than all of Portugal and Spain put together.
For a long time they were the punching bag of the Ottoman Empire and the response to the Crusades...
And I'm just going to stop now, because I've probably lost everyone.
carmine frigate
yea europe was fighting and stealing 1000 year B4 the USA was even a thing ๐
china allways been there tho
north torrent
China had their first rise and fall at pretty much the same time Rome was rising and falling. It is kind of scary how similar the timeframe is.
carmine frigate
that video the universe and everyting
explains the world pretty well
dunno what it was called
zinc matrix
china
big place, but very not social, they even built a wall around em
cus not social
north torrent
Then they had some down eras and up eras. During the Tang Dynasty China was the most advanced civilization in the world. Around 600 - 900 ce.
Beijing is relatively new compared to a city like Rome.
Chang' An (Xi' An) is the city that is more equivalent to Rome. And yes, all the paths on the silk road lead there.
rigid shoal
Wasn't China usually quite prosperous? Only from like 1800 - 2000's was China impoverished, I thought.
zinc matrix
Hey El Mao, i'm thinking about learning Chinese to read about their technology,
especially game dev, AI, ... I'm worried they will dominate in the near future.
Is it worth?
north torrent
There were periods of centuries at a time where China was broken up into warring factions and such, Mr. Floss.
carmine frigate
he put some real effort in there
north torrent
They created a lot of things centuries before the western world, such as the printing press and gunpowder. But they also had bouts of being isolationist and getting rid of their massive navy that could have explored large parts of the world.
I live in China and I don't speak Chinese, Mr. Vuhg.
Well, I speak enough to order Gong Bao Chicken or talk to my Chinese cat.
rigid shoal
Are there a lot of software sites/resources that are in Chinese?
I feel like most of that information is in English.
pearl elk
Gong Boa Chicken, is that like Kung Pow Chicken?
north torrent
I honestly think one of the reasons that the industrial revolution didn't happen in China first is because the language was too complex for books to spread the way they did in Europe after the Gutenberg Press started being spread across the land.
26 character alphabet for English and German... Spread bibles everywhere, more that 1% of the population can now learn to read... boom! start moving toward the industrial revolution.
China on the other hand... 3,000 characters just for basic stuff... way too hard to print books for the public on a printing press.
Even today I think one of the big disadvantages Chinese people have is that it is considerably slower for them to type something compared to typing it in English on a 26 letter keyboard.
Gong Bao Chicken is the actual translation of Kung Pow Chicken. Kung Pao is the old not very accurate Chinese to English characters.
Like when people call Beijing Roast Duck, Peking Roast Duck.
Or the name Canton for Guangzhou...
zinc matrix
๐ well, I'm from VN, right below China, they attacked us many times in the history.
So i think there might be a chance they attacked us in the future. Maybe technology war.
They've been doing shady activities in the Asian's sea.
pearl elk
Ahh yeah the inbetween language
north torrent
Well, you are better off speaking English after they invade your country, more jobs will be available for you.
foggy path
I think a lighting struck pretty fucking close because my ears literally just hurt from the loudness of that noise...
:D
zinc matrix
Their character system could be advantage to them since it is hard to learn. So they can hide their technology.
That's why i want to learn Chinese.
foggy path
my ex is from vietnam, she was always telling me about the shady ass shit constantly going on between vietnam and china :P
she lived in mong cai so pretty close to the border too
zinc matrix
she was right ๐
north torrent
Though honestly I think China is going to be a lot more peaceful once their 'Boomer' generation is out of power.
This older generation still remembers when China was the punching bag of the world, they lived through it and are still bitter.
The kids I teach. They grew up loving the US and watching Ironman and Peppa Pig and wanting to wear Air Jordans.
They are going to be more spoiled and materialistic than bitter, and it will show in the way the country interacts on the world stage.
foggy path
that's funny, my ex also had this type of view of the US
because basically they grew up watching american movies :D
zinc matrix
Yeah, but US is like shit show right now, because of tRump ๐
north torrent
If the world was a game of Civilization the US would have already won a 'Culture Victory'.
Not that I am saying the culture of the US is great, but by the rules of Civilization and spreading culture the US would have already won the game.
The game would have been over in the 1990s.
foggy path
Probably yeah
north torrent
rigid shoal
I don't know. I feel like the Chinese are going to hate America pretty much forever.
north torrent
The guy who invented Gong Bao Chicken.
foggy path
forever is a very long time Floss :D
north torrent
Well, you don't live in China and teach the children every day, so I'm going to take that opinion with a grain of salt.
rigid shoal
American interests conflict with Chinese interests.
north torrent
United States interests also conflict with Canadian interests...
zinc matrix
It will take new generation 30-50 years, before that, alot of things can happen.
foggy path
american politicians interests conflict with chinese politicians interests
north torrent
The US politicians interests conflict much more with the citizens of the United States than they ever will conflict with China.
foggy path
probably that too lol
pearl elk
The US and China were on the same side vs the Japs in WW2 but since then the US has been scared of Chinese expansion.
north torrent
Floss wanting to be able to live in a home without worrying about where this next rent check will come from is much more in conflict with what Mitch McConnel wants than the conflict between Donald T Rump and Xi Jinping.
The US and China actually fought each other in the Korean War.
Just they were playing as North and South Korea...
pearl elk
This fear of "the commies" is so obsolete, dunno why its still around
north torrent
But they both took over that war to the point where Korea was hardly fighting anymore... not that either side had much left by that point. Seoul was destroyed about 8 times over...
China is more Capitalist than the United States in many ways...
The United States is more a Corporate Socialist nation with zero Communism mixed in though.
rigid shoal
China is more capitalist and more socialist than the US.
pearl elk
China is beating the US at their own game and they dont like it
foggy path
the commies are just a good pawn to scare people into voting for your shitty politics lol
north torrent
While China is more Communist mixed with Capitalist with very little Socialism.
pearl elk
Most of the tensions come from the US being in the south chins sea
north torrent
Most of the industrialized world is rather Socialist by now.
rigid shoal
But actually, I don't think the US and China even remotely consider themselves enemies.
The US allows a lot of business between the two countries. And the US doesn't really criticize China as much as they could. Especially for those concentration camps and such.
pearl elk
Unfortunately Australia and China are trading punches atm over coronavirus
north torrent
Honestly, if I was a world leader I don't know if I could ever truly be comfortable making a deal with the US...
We could make a peace deal and become allies with President #46 or whatever... But then 3 years later President #47 comes along and just totally goes back on everything I was just promised by his predecessor.
So I just sacrificed the lives of 10,000 of my army to help the US fight blah blah blah war under #46, and now #47 wants to isolate from the affairs near my country and leaves me with no help to repay the favor...
foggy path
I wonder what happened with those border concentration camps trump set up
you know the ones where kids got separated from their parents
pearl elk
Well from what I read Trump is trying to set up a pacific trade group to replace the g7 to cut China out but the Russians wont come to the tsble unless Beijing has a seat
India and China have had some border tensions lately too
north torrent
There will never be a deal between Xi Jinping and Donald T Rump.
Xi Jinping is oldschool Chinese and the one thing he cares more about than anything is not letting anyone bully him.
And Donald T Rump is just a bully.
Someone with a more level head could offer Xi Jinping a way to look and feel powerful while the US got all the things they wanted out of a deal... But that won't happen anytime soon.
pearl elk
Yeah while the US is lead by Trump, the UK and its allies all get lumped together with his fake tan
But I will surely enjoy the cheap beef that was meant to be exported to China :)
north torrent
China isn't worried if its people struggle economically from a trade war. China just wants to look tough.
You can't beat them with bully tactics. They don't care if you hurt the citizens, there is no election coming up that they have to worry about.
pearl elk
Well yeah it was China who imposed the tariffs on us
north torrent
Hasn't effected my prices yet...
My cheese prices and such have gone up... it is harder to find good cheese right now.
People in the US can't get the new iPhone they will vote you out of office.
People in China can't get their Air Jordan shoes... the government doesn't care even one bit.
pearl elk
Because our government wanted an investigation into the origins of the virus. I guess they dont want it official that it started there if thats the case
north torrent
Like I said, the older generation of China isn't very trusting. They are still bitter over that whole turning China into a 3rd world country thing and all the people starving to death.
pearl elk
Its easy to take that the wrong way with Trump blurting shit like chinese virus
north torrent
China is honestly worried about letting people in to investigate stuff and then doing a smear job that makes them look bad.
They want to look strong, and they don't want to give anyone the opportunity to try to make them look weak.
pearl elk
He's just a troll, gets in the way of any meaningful discourse even close friends in the US
north torrent
Even if that fear is unfounded, they don't trust that the US will be honest.
foggy path
apparently Trump asked if Finland was part of Russia recently as well ๐คฆ
pearl elk
Trump doesnt even know the geography of his own country and you expect him to know europes
foggy path
Considering he met with the finnish prez I dunno lol
north torrent
I think a lot of people in the US are indoctrinated to think that the US is always nice and fair in international affairs...
But the US has done some pretty horrible stuff internationally and no country should just automatically trust them without some sort of protective measures.
He honestly has dementia. It is a degenerative brain condition. He might know something one day and it just won't be accessible the next. Then a week from now he might know it again.
foggy path
Yeah would not be surprised :p
pearl elk
The US doesnt recognize the international court so it can commit as many war crimes as it likes and expects to answer to no one
Like that time they invaded Iraq to find 0 WMDs
north torrent
But also, if you are watching current US news, remember that John Bolton views China as his biggest enemy, the guy seriously hates China with a passion.
So when you read what he says about tRump and China, remember that context.
Even if I had nothing to hide, if I was a world leader I wouldn't be letting the US in. They may very well plant the evidence in my country.
foggy path
Bolton's upcoming book was the source for the is finland part of russia quote actually
north torrent
Well, I think he likes Finland.
foggy path
I've never really hard that anyone particularly dislikes finland tbh
we don't really sway anyone in either direction much lol
north torrent
I just named a company in my game 'International Investments Incorporated' also known as 'In Cubed'.
I'm pretty sure Putin would disagree...
foggy path
You think Trump remembers history to that degree? :p
north torrent
Honestly, you should never read too much into what tRump says. He literally has dementia and forgets what he said.
foggy path
lol
carmine frigate
@foggy path not many ppl here ever heared finish ppl talk finish ๐
for longer than 3 sec
north torrent
A lot of the things he says he honestly believes are true. A lot of the stuff isn't him playing conman or some evil plot... He is just a sick old man who forgets what is real and what is inside his decaying brain.
carmine frigate
they aint too bad if u can just pop in a new vid or change the channel
that and they send Fintroll to the european songfestifal
thats just boss
Fintroll is the only finish thing i know actually
pearl elk
The US deserves a president who can drink water properly lol
carmine frigate
is it not the same thing?
north torrent
Austria deserves a president who isn't just a kangaroo in a man suit...
pearl elk
Maybe one that wasnt buddy buddy with Jeffery Epstain would be a good start too
foggy path
they should send Windows 95 Man
pearl elk
Lol that typo
north torrent
Kangaroos need sex slaves too...
pearl elk
Oh I thought it was the finnish president
foggy path
that would be something
carmine frigate
hmm i kinda like fintroll tho ๐
foggy path
Johannes Rojola for eurovision ๐ค
carmine frigate
im not a eurovision fan, but i do like a good troll ๐
zinc matrix
guys
omgomg
i made all weapon models
for my game
in Just Half A Day
#scalingwell
to obtain these weapons, players will have to grind for months, so i have months of break
woah
looks AAA
but im POOR
so i try to master
LOW POLY
soft night
the Unity way like what Control Rig is for Unreal https://blogs.unity3d.com/2020/06/18/learn-how-animation-rigging-can-level-up-animation-in-your-project/
zinc matrix
guys
i hate anything animation related
made my model in blender, got animations from mixamo
theyre not perfect, but good enough...
of course its very limited
and Inverse kinematics work on human only
COPE
stiff hamlet
Hey guys, so I am thinking fo selling my 3D models online. Which sites would you recommend that treat their artist well?
carmine frigate
animation is fun , but i like multispace vector math better ๐
sketchfab mayB?
sell em in VR chat?
unreal / unity marketplace?
stiff hamlet
@carmine frigate how do you feel about tyrbosquid and such sites.
stiff hamlet
All the assets that I have created. You can see them here:
zinc matrix
โค๏ธ 3<
stiff hamlet
Haha I havent done any Nsfw stuff
carmine frigate
ahh too bad, looks good tho
coral tangle
Funny Fortnite https://twitch.tv/skulltip
stiff hamlet
Ty. I am more of an environment / lightimg artist.and I have been trying to find a job to make it into a career...but its though and I need the money lol
carmine frigate
dont we all ๐
stiff hamlet
Yea. It's what it is.
carmine frigate
hope it works out for you
stiff hamlet
Ty. I hope so too
carmine frigate
i have no clue what kind of rev u can get from selling prop packs
or levels or anything
i know characters sold kinda decent on sketchfab when VRchat was boomin, dunno how that is now
zinc matrix
guys is .IO domain worth it for browser game? i think they've been trendy for a while
foggy path
I doubt the TLD will change the popularity of your game unless it's something like .scam
zinc matrix
IO is expensive and thus only good browser games buy it
foggy path
30 bucks is not really expensive imo :P
besides if it's for business purposes, in a lot of places it's a tax deduction anyway :D
all my for-business domains and servers are tax deductions for me so I practically pay nothing
(not that I have particularly many of them, but in any case)
tacit kraken
This is interesting! https://youtu.be/kEB11PQ9Eo8
cloud nova
can i ask a hardware question here?
mossy nexus
yup
zinc matrix
depends how hard the hardware is
rich quiver
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFJ4Iz6EeBU this game re use basic enemies very well
soft night
cons go like cancelled this year
foggy path
3D Realms or maybe New Blood should just hire kinofabino to run their twitter account
although Dave Oshry already occasionally RT's fabino's shitposts lol
soft night
why?
thorny dock
wow I didn't realize there was such a culture around the sonic twitter account, and that it was involved so deeply with the IP's success
personally my fanship with sonic was sealed in stone when I played the masterpiece that is Sonic Adventure DX: Director's cut
I used to be sad too, then I started to learn programming and unreal engine
Now I'm just stressed ๐
soft night
i have being stressed sad, frustrated, angry, rage, depressed at the same time
zinc matrix
@soft night cuz no hair?
thorny dock
Ah, an experienced developer I see
soft night
@zinc matrix i like my hair in hedgehog style
zinc matrix
i like your hair too
thorny dock
where is the other bassdrive listener here? is their IRC channel down for good?
north torrent
As someone who mostly plays what are labeled 'story driven games' I honestly think that the idea of a 'beginning, middle, end' story with a plot and plot twists, with exposition and rising action and a big climax is very overrated in the medium of a game.
My passion is games that tell a narrative in the way only a game can tell a narrative. A game doesn't have to be cinematic or have a plot laid out like a book to tell a good narrative.
I think what it does need is deep characters, npcs that respond to the actions of the player, and some sort of event and plot for the player to explore rather than watch.
Because of the interactive nature of the medium I think game stories work better when there is something the player character needs to learn as opposed to do. Learning and exploring something is easier to have many different ways to go about it as opposed to doing something in the particular way a developer wants to have a cutscene play later on, so Arthur Morgan needs to be in this exact spot at this exact time...
carmine frigate
i like story driven games so i can speedrun em ๐
north torrent
As far as The Last of Us 2 goes I'm not going to listen to anything about it after the way all the fans and YouTube community were acting over the leaked info.
carmine frigate
mayB i go play part 1 someday
thorny dock
how did they act? what leaked info?\
north torrent
I don't have a Playstation... too expensive.
I stopped following it, so I never found out who leaked the info.
But someone who didn't like Naughty Dog very much leaked a summary of the story and then everyone just flipped out and started talking about boycotting the game.
But the thing is, you could give me any story ever written whether it be just an average story or the greatest story ever, and I could easily summarize it in a way that makes it seem horrible.
It would take me not effort at all the summarize my favorite movie to make it seem like shit.
So for fans to get all upset over a summary of a story from what may have been a competing game studio or an employee who got fired for whatever reason and is pissed, is just ridiculous.
They should have waited till the facts were revealed before flipping out and threatening to boycott something.
For all I know the story actually is bad. It is the timing and the jumping to conclusions I have a problem with, not the actual conclusion. They have every right to hate a story, when they have actually seen the story from a reputable source.
soft night
EA Play Live soon
thorny dock
wow, that is pretty ridiculous, personally I would take something like that with a pound of salt, whether or not the story is from a legit employee, whoever leaked it is going to present it with a semi bad image, thats all the 4chan community on youtube needs to blow something out of proportion like this. literally just trigger hunting, hoping for a big response or ripple caused by them
I would be so disappointed if I was working hard on a big project only to find some disgruntled fan/employee try and destroy the image before the game is even released, or further details are announced
soft night
there have being used Unreal in EA Play lives
hearty steppe
bruh, what's the shortcut to select all faces of a BSP object?
thorny dock
@hearty steppe
hearty steppe
LMAO thanks
mild root
I hate "cinematic" games, but I like rpg's with tons of meaningful dialogues.
it is nothing bad if developers try to achieve cinematic visuals or another few cinematic elements.
what I hate - is when such efforts do damage to the gameplay, and the story itself. cinematic stuff clashes with gameplay events, and so on
games are the whole new medium, interactive and multidimensional.
trying to make games cinematic is as stupid as trying to make movies book-like, and not by putting in a good story, but by taking out visuals and replacing them with text
one of poor cinematic attempts is tomb raider reboot. Lara "the Doom Slayer" Croft wipes out entire island of angry hobos, yet she sobs in every occasion. It is okay to have nerve breakdowns if you suddenly become a grim reaper, but there is also another problem - the drama is unbelievable and nearly everything characters say (in the whole trilogy) is stupid and cringy. And they have thrown tons of budget and manhours on it, just to make full movie size-like machinimas, based on a mediocre writing!
I am not oldschool Tomb Raider, I got into series by starting with anniversary-legend-underworld reboot. the story was not serious there as well, but it didn't get in the way too much, and I played it for all puzzles and climbing there. and the variety of locations was stunning, each level took the player to a different part of the world. while in the latest reboot the entire games took place in a single-themed environment (each game has its own setting, at least)
but I'd gladly accept if devs cut all cutscenes time down 10-15 minutes per game and put more effort into more puzzles and environmental art.
regarding completely cinematic games, like heavy rain and similar - I don't care at all and I don't care to ever care
what games might offer instead of cinematics - is immersive simulation
npcs that do something, move around, chat
animals, monsters and bandits attack each other, based on faction relationships
north torrent
I think you have a pretty narrow view of cinematography in the way you typed that.
More on the semantics side of thing and not that I don't think you understand that there are a lot wider elements to cinematography.
mild root
I mentioned that cinematography is not bad, if devs don't try to be hollywood directors and end up with a good game in the first place
a game full of gameplay
and not cutscenes
fathom wadi
I thought Uncharted 4 went too far with the cinematics tbh. Lost of a lot of the feel of the game for me. Especially with the switch in character types
mild root
I am totally for "cinematic" quality of graphics
north torrent
What I mean is that cinematography can be something such as the way the camera shifts to the left or the right as the player rides a horse in Shadow of Colossus, giving a better view of the vast landscape you must traverse.
Cinematography can be choosing particular color pallets and lighting to create emotions in the player as he or she explores a particular area.
mild root
you are talking about general visual art concepts
north torrent
I think it is important as a game designer to look at cinema and know how to pick what parts fit the storytelling unique to the gameplay of your game and which parts are going to harm your game.
mild root
and it applies to videogames well
covert nebula
hey guys
north torrent
But these are techniques directly taken from cinema, the older brother of videogames. Direct hand me downs in the way cinema inherited many techniques from stage plays but then had to learn that being able to move a camera was part of the language of the new art form.
I think from a vocabulary and semantics perspective that using cinematography as just an equivalent to cut scenes makes a productive conversation on the advantages and disadvantages of learning from classic films harder to have.
mild root
But these are techniques directly taken from cinema
no
north torrent
Early movies for example never moved the camera. They knew how stage plays told a story and they used that in their new medium. But over time they realized that just placing a camera in where the audience of a stage play would be was limiting.
They learned to make cuts, which was something that wasn't part of the audiences language of understanding at the time. People got confused at first when the film just cut from a building on fire to a fire truck racing down the street.
mild root
colors, lighting, composition - are visual art concepts, they have existed in paintings in their modern form since the Renaissance.
level design has origins in architecture, and there are examples of architectural planning to guide visitors through places, also architecture considered light as not only way to make places just more illuminated, but also to create a mood for places.
in short words, cinematography is just a tiny fraction of visual arts, a very limited one, and its competence applies only to problems of rendering a picture from a virtual viewport, and even there it breaks apart as soon as a player gets a control on camera.
if we break down cinematography - it has very few original concepts, and most of its concepts derive from previous forms of art
covert nebula
besides the originality argument which is a beast in itself and it touches art as a broad subject, i agree with the fact that games as a medium can't be compared with cinematography on par because the player has control of the camera and that in a way breaks it but also opens up a whole world of possibilities
of course you can make it very close, take for example silent hill
but still it's very different, i think that games and cinematography have different objectives, while games want to immerse the player and have him be as proactive as possible, cinematography also tries to immerse but in a passive way, it's just about the mood and the shots, games have a lot more to deal with
mild root
I guess, it is better to think about game as a playfield, where we don't put a camera on stage, trying to frame the best shot, but we put a player into a space, and we have a very difficult task to make the whole place too look and feel nice
covert nebula
exactly
mild root
and a difficulty difference between fulfilling these tasks the same as difficulty between building theatrical stage and a castle
I would be glad though, if games were like movies, it might reduce planning complexity from n^4 to n^2
covert nebula
while cinematography "only" has to convey emotions, games need to immerse the player, design their interaction and deal with every single thing he might come up with
in conclusion i think games have the role to fulfill the same needs as cinematography, and also a lot more, that's why i think games are a superior medium and they will eventually substitute cinematography
on a positive note the polish minister of education just proposed to add "this war of mine" to the mandatory "reading list" for high school education
which is a step in that exact same direction
(btw sorry for getting in the subject so hard, i've talked about this subject for a ton of hours with my peers, and this is my conclusion and i strongly believe in it)
north torrent
The simple fact is as a level designer you very much can frame a shot. You can guide a players eye. You can place a stone walkway or a gate or rubble to guide where a player walks.
mild root
to some extent
north torrent
To think that a level is just a playground where the artist has no power of suggestion is not taking advantage of the art.
mild root
yet a level is a 3d space
north torrent
That doesn't mean you need to suggest something, but realizing when to use a tool and when not to use a tool is the real skill.
mild root
I mean, think of level designer, not as a painter, but as an architect
architecture is an art as well
covert nebula
yeah of course mao
i agree with you in that respect, but still you have to acknowledge the fact that the player can and will do whatever he wants
north torrent
But games are a direct predecessor of cinema and the ways we light a scene in a game come directly from the way film makers light a scene for a movie. We do not use the same techniques a painter would use to choose the lighting for a scene if we are working in a 3d environment.
covert nebula
including glitching into the walls of that farm that was supposed to be just a prop
i think that the reason games are superior to cinema is the fact that they can allow the player to pursue whatever narrative better resonates with them
north torrent
There is a certain language that people in the year 2020 have when it comes to media.
If you were to take the art from 2020 and show it to someone in 1920 they would not be able to understand it very easily. These are techniques that have developed with out culture and storytelling, and the language of our modern storytelling developed in cinema.
covert nebula
cinema will never allow that
mild root
But games are a direct predecessor of cinema and the ways we light a scene in a game come directly from the way film makers light a scene for a movie. We do not use the same techniques a painter would use to choose the lighting for a scene if we are working in a 3d environment.
lighting is a discipline of perspective geometry
covert nebula
take a game like minecraft for example
mild root
a painter can sketch a dozen of lighting scenarios
covert nebula
there is close to no level design in there
north torrent
That perspective is totally ignoring the cultural aspect of art.
mild root
while cinematographists may spend the same time to build just one light set on stage
covert nebula
however a player is able to create his own narrative based on his gameplay
games are wonderful in that aspect
mild root
That perspective is totally ignoring the cultural aspect of art.
art is multicultural!
north torrent
Not exactly, but that's a different discussion.
covert nebula
i feel like there's a fundamental thing of games that is not being considered at all in this discussion and forgive me if i'm wrong
but the main ingredient of any game that has ever been made is interaction
and art is only functional to that interaction
most of the time
north torrent
That is true, but not exactly what I was talking about.
covert nebula
art in games is made to immerse, to give a feeling of liveness, or simply just familiarity
(not talking about cinematics of course)
mild root
interaction and space to play
decoration and effects to create aesthetics
story to explain and motivate
north torrent
I was trying to finish my train of thought about how the language of art evolves over time and how games inherit from film the way film inherited from stage plays.
I was simply trying to point out what was inherited before moving on to the topic of what is different and we must make large changes for, Mr. Kaffeine.
mild root
good games usually have all three
and how games inherit from film
games were way before anyy film or even visual arts
green sorrel
I personally would say that interaction is what is unique to games, (or largely unique,) that other artistic media doesn't have. But you could have a game that lies anywhere along the spectrum of very interactive to having very little. And what role any kind of art, (including architecture,) might play is really dependent on the game in question. Some games I've seen are more focused on art or aesthetic than on the gameplay, where the gameplay serves the art rather than vice versa.
Just my two cents I guess
mild root
for example, hide-n-seek, maybe is one of the oldest games.
in video games, there is stealth action genre or stealth mechanics, that inherits this ancient concept
covert nebula
you are right neuron
north torrent
Not games in the term we are discussing today, Mr. HxE. We could certainly discuss the history of games outside of just the topic of story based games, but I can really only focus on one conversation at a time so that would be better for another time.
covert nebula
it was about to say it really depends on the focus of the game
occupy white walls focuses mainly on art, but minecraft really doesn't
north torrent
But for the purpose of this conversation as I understand it we were talking about cinematic games in the modern era.
Not tabletop gaming and the like.
mild root
@north torrent sorry, just drifted away with topic
green sorrel
Oh, I see.
covert nebula
i was about to say*
soft night
Frostbite Engine next gen is something more from that engine
green sorrel
(Sorry if I contributed to the confusion over the focus of the discussion)
covert nebula
no worries neuron, this discussion can go on forever, trust me i've been there lol
green sorrel
Fair lol
covert nebula
it's like discussing philosophical points of view, in the end we're doing just that
green sorrel
Both very open ended topics
north torrent
The nature of all discussions is to branch out, whether it is intentional or not.
Nothing wrong with that. But I do like to try to stay precise and finish one point before moving on to another. But that's just me personally and not by any means me telling anyone else what to do.
covert nebula
we're discussing aesthethics and its reason of being
green sorrel
I get that, Mao. I try to stay focused like that, but I tangent a lot. I probably have undiagnosed ADHD or something.
I always have to rewind to finish a point lol
north torrent
I will repost this from when I first started this topic earlier for Mr. Kaffeine. I think it was more in-line with his views on the topic.
[5:56 AM]
My passion is games that tell a narrative in the way only a game can tell a narrative. A game doesn't have to be cinematic or have a plot laid out like a book to tell a good narrative.
I think what it does need is deep characters, npcs that respond to the actions of the player, and some sort of event and plot for the player to explore rather than watch.
Because of the interactive nature of the medium I think game stories work better when there is something the player character needs to learn as opposed to do. Learning and exploring something is easier to have many different ways to go about it as opposed to doing something in the particular way a developer wants to have a cutscene play later on, so Arthur Morgan needs to be in this exact spot at this exact time...```are you talking about hollywoodian flow in the first part?
north torrent
I am a creative writing teacher, so I have many different 'breakdowns' or 'formulas' of how a story is laid out.
For this purpose I was just being vague.
Could apply to both books, movies, comics, stage plays, or whatever else.
mild root
oh.
what do you think, should game story writers consider fitting a story into the gameplay as their main task?
north torrent
What I teach my young students that are just learning about this stuff is... Exposition - Instigating Event - Goal - Rising Action - Climax - Falling Action - Resolution.
But not as in that is they way people should write stories, but as in these are things to look for when analyzing a story.
covert nebula
i'm more of a gameplay guy, probably why i chose to pursue programming
also i need a new keyboard
lol
north torrent
I personally think that what I just described from my creative writing class should be used very sparingly in media such as a game. Maybe not thrown out the window completely, but certainly not followed closely.
covert nebula
just spilled coffee over it
green sorrel
(Might be possible to clean it?)
covert nebula
it's a crap keyboard i got in a mouse+keyboard bundle for an emergency substitution situation
green sorrel
(Fair enough)
covert nebula
my previous gear got trashed
it was old af and also cheap
i never spent a lot of money for peripherics
north torrent
The thing that made me want to be a videogame writer was the unique way in which a game story unfolds. The many unique ways that only a game can tell a story.
I have no interest in trying to do something a movie or a book could do. I want to do things only a game can do.
But I like to learn from those other mediums, because I feel I have the knowledge to pick and choose which elements from that media can benefit my project and which would be detrimental.
covert nebula
yeah it makes sense, good stories really contribute to immersion
green sorrel
That's an interesting perspective. Reminds me a bit of the Myst series? Where the narrative is told through exploration.
north torrent
But I guess you could say that I feel that way about most mediums. I love writing stories for different mediums, but I never just 'port over' the way I write.
The reason I enjoy changing from writing a comic to writing a radio drama is because there is a totally different way of telling a story and I want to take advantage of the unique aspects of that medium.
The challenges and restrictions of the medium inspire me as I try to take best advantage of the strengths of that medium.
In games 'Choice' happens to be both a restriction and strength when telling a story.
So I would rather create an emotion through something the player does with the controller than to use words in dialogue to try to convey it.
covert nebula
what do you think about journey?
north torrent
I actually haven't played it yet. It is on my list.
The more you can make the choices in a game based on what the player DOES as opposed to what the player clicks in a dialogue menu, the better off the story is.
And interactive dialogue is sort of my main focus. I love interactive dialogue, but want to use it in the most impactful way, which often times means using it sparingly.
If I am playing a game and I know damn well how to pick up a baseball bat and how to swing it, it is incredibly frustrating if I am in a conversation and I get a dialogue option to walk over to the bat and break the window of a car.
If the game mechanics allow it, then let the player walk to said bat, pick it up, aim it at the car, and hit.
green sorrel
That makes sense. I would think if it were entirely dialogue option based, you might as well make a choose your own adventure as a videogame.
covert nebula
do you guys play a lot of games or are you more prone to development?
green sorrel
Haven't played a lot of games recently, just been busy with my project. Used to play "too many" videogames, if such a thing is possible.
north torrent
Or another example is Red Dead Redemption 2's very complex and polished character customization. It allows you to buy thousands of different outfits to change to for almost any occasion imaginable.
So one day I get a mission that says I need to dress up like a rich guy as part of a plot to rob a riverboat.
So I naturally go to the store, buy a top hat and fancy coat, get a haircut and cut my beard into a fancy rich guy mustache.
Then I go to the mission and the Cust scene plays. The guy instantly tells my super fancy rich guy looking character that "you can't go to the riverboat looking like a freaken cowboy" so the game triggers an event and changes me into less fancy clothes that the developers chose for the mission... Totally erasing the work I did to make my guy look like a stereotypical tycoon gambler...
green sorrel
That sounds really frustrating
north torrent
I would say I play a pretty average amount of games, Mr. Kaffeine.
covert nebula
haven't play rdr2
or even the first for that matter
game never appealed to me
i have played a ton of multiplayer games though
north torrent
I love the game for other reasons, but there are a lot of things that annoyed me.
green sorrel
Haven't played it, myself. I've heard good things about it. But I tend towards playing multiplayer games, myself. (Not anything against other games, but I only have so much resources to throw at buying games.)
north torrent
If you like the setting and cowboy stories, play Red Dead Redemption, as it is great as a way to walk around in the kind of world you like to watch in movies.
But if you don't like those kind of movies or setting, pass on it.
north torrent
I actually have the Witcher 3 installed and have really had trouble getting into the game... playing it feels a bit like a chore right now...
covert nebula
meh idk, i loved it, netflix series sucks ass though imho
north torrent
I guess I am just exhausted from every time I start a new game being bombarded with new crafting systems and level up systems with complex skill trees and inventory systems you need to understand just to not be too weak to play the damn game...
covert nebula
oh well i started playing since the first one
had time to get used to the mechanics
all three are great games
green sorrel
Haven't played it either... I think I've been missing out on like 99% of all the popular games out there.
I heard good things about the Netflix series, but haven't watched it.
Complex systems in these games kind of frustrate me, honestly, unless they are the point of the game.
covert nebula
the first one is especially narrative focused
north torrent
I think stuff like complex skill trees should be saved for the mid game and end game.
covert nebula
i think me and you are different types of gamers, which is a great thing tbh
north torrent
It is just a breaker in the momentum if you add it at the beginning when the player is just trying to explore the new world and figure out what the character can do.
covert nebula
i like interesting mechanics that make me feel like i'm progressing
deus ex is a good example of that
also the fact that some knowledge might be required to fully use all your potential
green sorrel
I tend a lot towards social multiplayer games like TF2 or Overwatch.
covert nebula
like witcher's potions and enemy types
sword types
etc
i've been playing gta 5 online and apex legends lately
north torrent
In linear media such as a book, tv show, or movie, a good story requires more than just a sequence of events to happen.
The one thing almost all successful stories have in common is that the main character has a flaw and is forced to face that flaw through the story. In the end the character either overcomes the flaw and grows or the flaw eventually leads to the downfall of the character.
Without that you just have a series events happening without much emotional investment for the audience.
So this is an interesting conundrum when comparing the media of videogames with most other media in the history of humans. In a story the main character needs a flaw, but in a game the player is the main character.
So how do we put a flaw on the player and how do we overcome or fall victim to that flaw over the course of an interactive game?
There are many good answers to this question. I just think that recognizing this core difference between the mediums is one of the keys to having better storytelling inside of games.
If the overcoming of the flaw is just something the player character does in cutscenes and the player himself/herself doesn't feel part of that journey, then your game is missing a great opportunity.
plucky pagoda
It's called character arch
zinc matrix
sup
north torrent
I always thought it was called a protagonist banana...
pearl elk
Game characters tend to follow a snowball, building up until some final encounter point. Some games do set you back abit, take your weapons or try to give you some sort of flaw but its not really part of the character themselves. If you run around killing people all day surely that will impact your mental health, yet very few characters even seem to notice and it creates a disconnect between the games mechanics and its story.
You never have to deal with those questions of morality as a player, you dont really get much input into the character themselves even in RPGs. Youre simply reciting a script
north torrent
And that is part of why game stories sometimes fall flat even with huge budgets and large teams of writers and animators.
plucky pagoda
A lot of games follow a fairly standard 3 act structure or similiar.
you can take a blank Save the Cat beat sheet and fill out beat by beat with a lot of games.
pearl elk
lol I think thats meant to be Eureka Moment