people complain about it being more complicated because of the new tooling and frameworks, but frankly those are making most people's jobs a lot easier
#lounge
foggy path
tough sierra
I mean how libs operate, they can dramatically change with just one simple tweak here and there, actually reading the code is often painful in untyped environments, being able to peal back abstractions is something I need in order to see what's going on.
It's probably complicated as far as learning curve, the new tools i could see being easier for those with previous experience though.
zinc matrix
@fluid bloom really? rustis that good at multithread programming?
tough sierra
It's really, really daunting to someone who's used to very explicit code though. A kind of weakness of mine.
zinc matrix
as for multi thread, i dont need in my game iirc
unity probably makes your game use multiple threads
i wonder
tough sierra
Mmmmm
zinc matrix
ThO
tough sierra
Game logic no that's up to you.
zinc matrix
imean
why would i need it
why not one thread
what r u doing
that u nede
more threados
tough sierra
Optimizations, for the most part, not something every project needs.
zinc matrix
how optimizations
tough sierra
Hmm.
tough sierra
There's DOD programming guides/techniques that kind of put you in the right mindset. The cpu can only fetch so much data from ram at one time. It's not really for "doing more calculations" so much as it's just for fetching more data from different locations at once. Technically it's both but the latter is more important.
Example.
zinc matrix
cope
tough sierra
Say you have a big array of bytes, you want to do an addition to every single byte, single threaded on this cpu is 1GB/s, using all 8 of my cores should process about a little less than 8GB/s
That's the basic theory of it.
Creating threads is fucking slow, so you end up needing to make thread pools, and you need to know when to use them, ideally when the processing time exceeds some number of ms.
tough sierra
If your making something like a large scale RTS or large scale bullet hell with competitive entity counts you do. Factorio being a good example actually.
It's not just that.
Being very aware of this stuff can save your game from dreaded FPS spikes.
And it's not just that.
Load times.
Not just that.
Fucking lag less networking.
7 days to die would be a prime example of a game i consider magnificent in design/idea, but piss poor in optimizations such that if they redid it properly they'd be dominating the crafting/survival genre space.
rigid shoal
I only just now briefly looked at 7 Days to Die, and that looks like a good game to make a competitor to in UE4/5.
tough sierra
I would agree
But
This type of game needs ECS
The DOTS thing unity put out actually blew my friggin mind.
Actually i'd want something like this done in a rendering engine with a custom physics engine and/or something like bullet3d.
But you for sure need something with flexibility so that you can swap out parts easily.
foggy widget
btw BIIIIIIG Friday Shoutout to @quiet narwhal & @hollow zephyr
rigid shoal
There's another user here that does similar stuff in UE4. He does very low-level stuff to support a lot of "things" on screen.
I think that approach would be easier than practically starting from scratch.
But regardless, it is really unfortunate how poorly UE4 handles skeletal meshes, especially if you use ACharacter.
tough sierra
It's not really from scratch.
I'd use something like ogre3d or unigine.
Something you can use mostly for rendering.
You "can' do this in ur4, actually it might be one of the best for that, it's just a little bit tedious at first.
But you'd for sure want to avoid a lot of stuff
foggy widget
To be fair, no game engine out of the box is highly optimized for any and all use cases. I mean, modifying the engine for specific needs is the cornerstone of game development
tough sierra
UObjects and AActors and the default physics are probably a no go.
The default nav mesh for sure is a no go.
tough sierra
That's exactly the issue.
zinc matrix
tough sierra
This type of game requires a lot of specialized tools.
foggy widget
UE is a general purpose engine. Those specific to certain studios are just that: specific purposed engines for specific purposed use cases, and at that point, it loses its flexibility. EA tried this with Frostbite and its failing miserably to adhere to all kinds of games.
rigid shoal
General purpose 3D*
tough sierra
That's basically exactly it.
That's why engine work is a different animal than how I see most other people work.
Your making something specifically designed to milk a specific problem space.
And the optimization gains DO pay off big time, it's low level work generally.
foggy widget
there will never be an engine that handles any use case equally (3d for argument sake) and does it well. Here is a great example: the RE engine, specifically for the new RE2, is made for interior spaces, not for far distant scenes. A great book describes this in detail: Game Engine Architecture by Jason Gregory, developer at Naughty Dog
foggy widget
amazon
foggy widget
so far, i think its a great book
tough sierra
I've been wanting to make RE spinoffs using their old styles forever now.
soft night
tough sierra
Yes yes ^-^
fringe sundial
@tough sierra i experimented with DOTS style techniques when optimizing the godot renderer
got some massive gains
tough sierra
Oh hey i remember you.
fringe sundial
i made my own ecs mimicking how unity works
soft night
so KFConsole
fringe sundial
the pattern has some very high power in it
tough sierra
Exatly!
tough sierra
It's flexible AND cpu friendly.
tough sierra
You can try out Entt but i never fully stress tested it...
fringe sundial
you are kinda better just grabbing an ECS lib like Flecs or Entt and using it from unreal
tough sierra
And it requires you make a special struct for every damn component type.
tough sierra
The ecs engine i made just required string IDs which would be converted to integer IDs.
fringe sundial
ive done extensive testing of different ecs libs and patterns
flecs is the strongest
its tech is pretty damn top tier
very unity-like
entt is very nice to use, much, much simpler, and its speed is still great
i would say entt performs great up to stuff like running 50k or 100k entities
flecs scales basically endlessly
but entt has some features that are very common in games, that work much faster than in flecs
adding and removing components in entt is super super cheap
and accessing components by entity id is also super cheap
flecs more complex thing makes it trickier
alpine fern
does flecs do the thing with multiple components in a chunk?
tough sierra
Hmm something able to do higher counts would be nice ^-^
fringe sundial
@alpine fern yes
it also does some incredibly big brain stuff
that is beyond what unity does
flecs is stupidly smart
alpine fern
did they come up with a better way for accessing a specific component of a specific entity, than a linear search over components in the chunk?
fringe sundial
yes
tough sierra
Will have to give it a try ^-^
fringe sundial
well, to begin with, he has refined an idea i gave to him for "cached references"
if you use those, specially on a loop, it speeds up a lot
its also great when you are storing something like a Parent or similar, as you can cache the access
but the implementation of the actual search to find the access is also smart, because he doesnt search
each component type gets a integer id
and all archetypes have space for up to 1024 components directly in flat array
it uses a shit-ton of extra memory per archetype, but it should be alright
so its basically immediate access
alpine fern
that means if I have more than 1024 types of components it won't work?
fringe sundial
it has fallback
it still works, but worse
but anyway, more than 1024 components is... rare
in OurMachinery engine they literally harcode to max 1024 components in the entire engine
alpine fern
is this like entt where it's template wizardry
alpine fern
fringe sundial
Ikrima uses it for his bebylon game
alpine fern
does that mean it has no such thing as destructors for components?
fringe sundial
http://kiteandlightning.la/ this guys
@alpine fern it has callbacks so it does have destructors
but they are optional
tough sierra
That's how my ecs engine worked
Integer IDs basially
You'd get the id by searching a string though.
But when dealing with the same id so often, that's absolutely not an issue.
fringe sundial
@alpine fern yup
tough sierra
Hell with that you could do it in pure C for ultra compatibility.
alpine fern
so this would probably be easy to use with dynamic structs
tough sierra
You mean polymorphic structs or..?
alpine fern
a struct that does not exist in C++, think similar to bp struct
user defined component data
tough sierra
I honestly avoid them a fair bit in my own stuff. But lack sufficient experience to have a need "yet".
warm swallow
Y'all seen UnrealGameSync?
then you go to the docs and it says
The Metadata Server must be deployed to the Windows Server machine with IIS 7.0 or higher and .NET 4.6.2 installed. ๐ ๐ ๐
tough sierra
I need to run to work damn
warm swallow
Epic really living in 2008 with this
tough sierra
You all have fun
warm swallow
See ya Koi ๐
thorny dock
chilly igloo
Guys, im really stuck at all that threadripper memory stuff...
If i want 64Gb RAM working in quad-channel is it better to buy one 4x16Gb kit, or two 4x8Gb kit?
And which one QVL i should prefer? Cause ASUS modo QVL says what i can use specific Kingston HyperX Predator memory sticks, but on AMD site here https://www.amd.com/ru/products/ryzen-compatible-memory/ready-for-amd-ryzen i didnt see Kingston brand at all.
Who can i trust? ๐
carmine frigate
4x8 =! 64
soft night
what brand you trust with the information
carmine frigate
ow w8 its 2
ur right
well, does ur mobo have 8 slots?
for ram
if not thats not an option making it more easy
chilly igloo
well, does ur mobo have 8 slots?
@carmine frigate ofcourse cause its about threadripper. Mobo with TR4 and 4 ram slots are doesnt even exist as i know ๐
plucky pagoda
If you're going to drop the money for a TR why buy non recommended memory? I'd go with what AMD says, but that's me.
carmine frigate
just look site where u order, they usually have pre build pcs, mayB look at those ๐
than order the parts
or some benchmark charts
eager chasm
@carmine frigate ofcourse cause its about threadripper. Mobo with TR4 and 4 ram slots are doesnt even exist as i know ๐
@chilly igloo just look at QVL for your MoBo. Memory modules that are tested for 4-channel configuration will be listed there. Doesn't matter how you get them: one by one, two by two or else anyhow, untill they're exactly the same, they will work.
carmine frigate
i think theres only 2 mem chip factories . and a ton of guys making ram sticks out of em ๐
the more u know ๐
eager chasm
@carmine frigate exactly! Choosing reputable vendor like Kingston, Samsung, Crucial (Micron) is a good idea, but everything else... You know, the RAM is kinda one of the very few parts of the PC that 'Just works"โข :)
carmine frigate
just like a mobo maker buys most the parts, if u go sub 100$ board they might start usin glue, put less usb ports in , no cupper but allu
like it allready costs 10$ for the box, protect plastic and shipping
than thay actually NEED stuff like a socket and it has a min price
every PC case maker started to just assemble mice aswell
print plate, sensor, switches they all buy, and they were allready making cases
now they just make it fit the hand
eager chasm
@carmine frigate I've never had a MoBo that costs more than 70$ in my entire life for my home PC, and I've been totally happy with the performance and reliability. The only 100+ MoBo that I've bought half of the year ago literally short circuited after I attempted to boot my PC with it, so I went back to my A320m AM4+ board for 30$ and it works 2nd year no problems. :)
carmine frigate
hmm yea i like to have usb flash and some other stuff tho
AMD mobos are expensive now
VRM makes the base price a lot higher i think
with ryzen
think mine was 130 or something
eager chasm
I'm running Ryz 5 2600 6/12 CPU, again, on 30$ A320 board, and the value of that thing is really good.
carmine frigate
3600 here on a450 i think
450$ total on cpu ram mobo, i had the rest
something like that
eager chasm
In fact, this little old board supports max RAM frequency that my Ryzen does (2933), tho it's not capable of any CPU overclocking
idle vortex
I dont think I have ever paid less than ยฃ100 for a mobo
vast heron
My head is going to explode, i drink a bottle of milk just to get cool down ๐
Prim's algorithm my biggest enemy slayed with a 11 hit combo.
zinc matrix
tf
tulip orbit
tulip orbit
in the simpsons ep, bart had just gotten embarassed in front of the town, I think pantsed or something.
IRL, we're still young and this is the first of many recessions we'll face. its all going downhill
vast heron
When i look at to the future i see a bright future. Too bright, i think detonation of large scale explosives make future really bright and smoking hot good to go ๐
Atleast we will get a good bug free fallout title.
tulip orbit
naw, there'll always be bugs in a fallout title
zinc matrix
@lament lichen
zinc matrix
3d is all about cheating, why render something that you can't see?
Ponkkis
We friend?
Ponki bro
tough sierra
I will never understand the point of chairs like that.
tough sierra
Meh i never sat in a non wood chair that I found comfortable, but then again there's not a lot of office chairs to test out.
The drag on the butt just chafes it so bad >.<
tulip orbit
I've got a gaming chair and its pretty comfortable
replaced a chair I've had for 10+ years
tough sierra
Interesting.
Maybe after I get programming work.
Actually I always lean forward so that might be why.
tulip orbit
find a floor model to test out before ya buy. they vary in comfort quite a bit between models
tough sierra
Noted.
tulip orbit
I lean forward and hunch too ๐ฆ I'm trying not to
tulip orbit
if I continue to hunch close to the monitor, my eyesight will get worse again.
but no, I have laser eyes ๐
the hunching is just a bad habit, and for when I eat at the computer
tulip orbit
yeah same ๐
tough sierra
99% percent of my time is this ass sitting on this chair.
tough sierra
For sure.
Hell i'm mid way through my 20s and only got a job like a few ish months ago.
It's easy to lose yourself in the ocean.
tulip orbit
good job?
tough sierra
na my first job so far is working at a pizza hut as someone that busses, takes in the truck, preps, does generally most of the bitch work.
But.
I can't complain.
tough sierra
Still tied to a gov check for being legally blind, slowly but surely finding ways to springboard off of it.
See that i could do, if I could see the damn orders.
Am actually very used to construction and manual labor in general, since family had me help a lot growing up. It's just little stuff like that, being able to read fast enough.
tulip orbit
yeah, fast food is a fast paced enviro..
tough sierra
Mhm luckily there's a lot I can do that's not related to reading ^-^
tulip orbit
tho just flipping burgers just need to keep the burger bins stocked with fresh "meat"
tough sierra
Oh nice.
Pizza hut has their setup such that you have to be very hands on with each order, from beginning to end. Aside from the prep work that we do before the dough is ready to be used.
Was surprisingly complicated.
tulip orbit
heh
tough sierra
They like I do all the work that no one else wants to do though.
tulip orbit
employers love that
tough sierra
Honestly it doesn't compare to my teenage years helping ma with construction projects.
Not even half way.
As far as physically waring you down.
Moving lumber, stones, cement, lots of stuff.
Sand.
Oh god the sand.
tulip orbit
yeah for some reason, working for family is always harder than an actual job.
pocket sand?
tough sierra
I can't remember, annoyingly they never filled me in on the intellectual details. Not the measurements or designs much or such, i just did what I was asked and tried to observe a bit.
We used sand for example, helping bricks hold together for a sidewalk.
Which blew my mind.
Making porches, sheds, taming 3 acres of hill, gutting the inside of places we move to and replacing pretty much everything but the frame.
Actually saved a lot of money that way.
tough sierra
I have one major limitation ๐ Sun light drains me super quick, and I do burn easily. So there'd would need to be periods of rest ๐
Oof
Now I know that's not easy.
tulip orbit
oh, theres no rest. ๐
tough sierra
There never is.
tulip orbit
he's got me trying to design the irrigation system for his garden planters, but I dont have the slightest clue what I need for it
tough sierra
oculocutaneous albinism is my condition.
Jeez that can't be easy to design for.
I'm not sure what the weak points would be. Unless the water needing to be funneled isn't too much and you can use electricity or gravity to easily pump it in.
tulip orbit
ooh, that condition sounds fun.
The big issue is that theres no power out there, so it needs to run on 12v solar, and is fed from a well
tough sierra
The eyesight quirks are pretty abnormal, conventional solutions don't work with it, and the eyes can't be fixed so I was told.
Hmm
You'd need batteries and some stored power.
Then umph a bunch in at once?
But batteries require a fair bit of energy input if they have a large capacity I think.
I'm actually not sure
tulip orbit
its either going to be a drip tube system or that porous tube
tough sierra
No water has long ways to travel.
Honestly if he's lucky enough to have a way to collect rain water.
If that's legal
That might be ideal.
tulip orbit
yeah, the solar panels will provide enough power, if I can find a proper 12V water pump
theres a fair bit of garden, so the well will have to provide the water
tough sierra
The hard part would be getting a tower built to store it, you'd just need tarp to drip it in really.
Ah.
Honestly i'm mostly speaking out of theory crafting. I've always wanted to get more into gardening and automated gardening.
tulip orbit
I've had no interest ๐
but they're starting a family garden for veggies and whatnot
tough sierra
I just like the idea of getting something from nearly nothing, especially since for a time I was poor enough to try and grow my own vegetables indoors and make compost out of kitchen scraps.
Oh nice.
If they find the right things to make it work, in theory that's a very good long term investment, with a high ROI, not counting the quality of the product.
tulip orbit
if the irrigation system works, it'll just be a matter of keeping wildlife from chomping on the veggies
tough sierra
Exactly.
There's a few tricks for that.
Obvious is fences, doing greenhouses helps, I wonder if there's automated tazing systems one could make/program.
tulip orbit
lol, yeah they're gonna go with a fence, and possibly some wire mesh over top of each planter
tough sierra
Removing that won't be fun.
I've been wanting to do an indoor aeroponic system.
Maybe some mushrooms to.
The thing that erks me is the idea that you have to buy nutrients, I want a way to produce those myself.
The one good thing about conventional gardening using soil is that you can easily use home made compost, which is very efficiently produced if you use worms or do hot composting.
And there's a lot of local material you can use to make it.
You'd not believe.
Human piss is actually a super strong and ideal source of nitrate, as long as the human source is clean of drugs.
Leaves, branches, sawdust, all sorts of leftover food, cardboard, makes perfect carbon sources.
tulip orbit
I dont have a green thumh, except when I paint
tough sierra
Honestly i'm just starting out and somewhat suck so far.
I'd encourage them to look into three things if they've not yet though.
Aeroponics for sure, it's the best most efficient method of gardening, as far as crop yield, and it's not going to use as much electricity as hydroponics and it's actually a lot easier to maintain. You just check the levels and balance it once a day. If not that worm based compost, and if not that then hot composting. Those are super boosters to your yield and don't actually take very much energy after the initial setup.
It'll save fuck loads of money.
tulip orbit
they're on an old farm, so theres lots of greenery, and old cow manure
tough sierra
Aeroponics would be ideal for herbs that sell for a high price, you'd use a greenhouse with such a system to help maintain ideal growth rate. If done right you get some pretty good payoffs from what I hear.
Basically the plants grow at an insane rate.
A lot better than hydroponics even.
A technique discovered by nasa years ago, it's only recently picking up.
tulip orbit
its all greek to me
tough sierra
Fork them what I sent ya ๐
They'll thank you.
Supposedly it's actually a bit of a cash cow and space efficient.
tulip orbit
that sounds like more work for me
tough sierra
Aeroponics is the process of growing plants in an air or mist environment without the use of soil or an aggregate medium. The word "aeroponic" is derived from the Greek meanings of aer (แผฮฎฯ, "air") and ponos (ฯฯฮฝฮฟฯ, "labour").
Instead of submerging the roots fully in water, you constantly spray them with small amounts of water so they obtain more oxygen.
Which is a HUGE game changer.
The yield per hour of labor is actually a lot greater.
And if you program something to alert say your phone if the levels are imbalenced, that's a lot less work even.
Only maintenance besides picking the results, and replacing crops, is checking the levels and adding nutrients.
That's literally it
tulip orbit
I'd rather keep things lowfi, so that I'm involved less ๐
tough sierra
Ge them to have someone else help, it'll help them succeed if they are willing to get ahead of everyone else's stubborn ways.
Consider it the same as investing into pc building.
With practice and knowledge, you save yourself both work and money.
By a fuck ton.
I've ran tiny gardens, I know it's hell trying to water them manually, friggin weeding them all the time, keeping the animals and bugs off.
Traditional gardening fucking sucks.
tulip orbit
gardening in general does ๐
tough sierra
In theory not if you learn how to automate it.
Hell if your looking for something on the fun side that is nearly 0 work.
As in no setup even.
There's a robotic setup that takes designs from a 3D printer, it waters, seeds, and stamps out weeds for you.
Using basically nothing but a mechanical arm.
And a camera.
Was on the market years ago with really good newb friendly software.
tulip orbit
they can get advanced once there's power on the land
tough sierra
Honestly solar is enough if they took the time to learn how to get things powered right. I'd assume at least but my knowledge with electrical engineering is pretty limited.
I'm just barely into electronic engineering.
tulip orbit
I'm an electrician but have little experience with solar
tough sierra
It's fun stuff, basically supposedly heat reduces effectiveness, more expensive doesn't mean better cells, it makes me think of a power grid, the batteries are like the transformers somewhat and the cells are a bit like the power plants.
Difference being storage duration/capacity and all that.
At least that's the impression I got.
Wish I could figure out the math properly >.< And have a reason to buy some.
tulip orbit
๐
tough sierra
Maybe when I get the money I'll buy a few cells to power a hand made wheeled robot that taunts the neighbors a bit.
Raspi's are so damn cheap.
That's something I really want to do as a software dev hobbiest.
I'd make a nice optimized C program to do some fancy AI work.
Man you'd be amazed, there's already libs out there that allow you to move an entity around an environment, even mapping it's surroundings I believe to.
Using a camera.
north torrent
But can it run Crysis?
tough sierra
There's supposedly other techniques you can use to keep in heat better to save on the electricity.
Assuming the worst happens, stuff like that might keep humanity alive.
north torrent
I'm colonizing Mars right now.
tough sierra
For the empire!
tough sierra
The first two lines are kind of a turn off honestly, not just by historical context but metaphorical meaning.
Then again I guess nationalism isn't really pretty in general.
At least when naked.
I was one of those kids that tried really hard not to bother with that stuff, pledges during school mornings even. It felt too forced, if your drawn to an ideal it should have intellectual, personal merit, to be sought after in hope, not to be forced in.
And should never be so strong collectively that it's beyond questioning.
Was kind of the same during church events and stuff, stories are interesting, lessons should be headed, but some distance and a grain of salt is necessary for growth.
To me at least that's what it means to be free, that's not the responsibility of any nation, or any collective, organization, or ideal, if you want to be wise and strong you have to be balanced as an individual enough to come to your own conclusions.
north torrent
Sounds like you don't understand the context in which that song was written.
Someone just responded to a Facebook comment I made literally 9 years ago...
I'm not sure if I should say something or not...
tough sierra
Honestly I probably don't understand the context.
It gives me a lot of militarist/pride vibes though.
But that's pretty much the same to some degree with all the one's i've looked at.
Maybe i've a bit too much an anti aggressive personality.
Ah facebook re alerts people about old posts every so often.
Yeah i find that a bit annoying to.
Content should be selected by people for preservation generally.
Not re iterated randomly.
north torrent
The song was written during World War 2 when Japan was invading China and just mass murdering non military targets for who knows what reason.
north torrent
Japan had already taken over Korea and was on a big campaign to not just subjugate the people but to destroy their culture.
They wanted to destroy the Koreans identity as Koreans by burning their books and destroying all monuments to the past.
China was afraid of this happening to their culture at the hands of the same Japanese empire.
tough sierra
That's actually a common war tactic but I thought that was supposed to be for terrorist groups since they know they are inferior as far as raw power, it's a psychological thing.
And that's also a roman tactic, to destroy previous cultures to enable expansion.
Has trade offs.
Regardless what people say I consider fear a big weakness, if you make someone scared they will make mistakes and play into you're hand.
north torrent
When the Romans did it we were more talking about small villages in Gaul...
By World War 2 the scale of things makes it an entirely different thing.
tough sierra
Fair point.
I'm not an expert on that either, am more fascinated though, been reading a little translated bits of the art of war and it does seem pretty interesting, seems to be something you can take wisdom from into other areas of life even.
It's weird.
History was one of those subjects I thought was boring and pointless growing up, now I wish they actually stopped with the boring pointless details and focused on historical events, and explain the social/economic situation more. Understanding how people behave in what situations is actually very powerful and helpful.
Instead of focusing too hard on promoting ideals and enforcing attention on exact dates/leaders, which for the broad scope is really pointless most times.
tough sierra
Hard to believe such a small land mass could house that much power.
north torrent
Understanding the attitude of China in 2020 requires you to understand what happened to China between the Opium Wars and the defeat of Japan at the end of WW2.
That century of humiliation has shaped the personality of China on the world stage. The number one thing China will not allow is for anyone to bully China. They were bullied non-stop for a century and will not allow it again.
tough sierra
Oof that'll make for some over aggressive responses to things naturally.
Regardless who you are really.
north torrent
Well, I truly believe that there never has been or never will be an empire as evil and heartless as World War 2 Japan.
But I also understand that what World War 2 Japan became was a result of actions taken by the United States. They made the monster and then fought the monster they created. The US was certainly not the good guys.
tough sierra
I don't think any country is really good/evil even in pheromonic wars.
I guess there could be worse/better though.
north torrent
Not the country, but the empire.
tough sierra
States at least in theory really only care for themselves.
That i'm still pondering the validity of.
north torrent
My grandma and great grandma lived through WW2 in Berlin, so through their stories I learned to differentiate the people of a country from an evil empire that is starting a war.
tough sierra
Huh.
So you believe or suspect that the people aren't always the motivator behind wars that their country fights? Even if they are publically aware of em?
I thought germany got the way it was through more subconscious reasons.
A kind of a decision by the masses rather than just the dictator of the time.
Even if it was repressed desires.
north torrent
Germany became what is was because of England, Italy, and France punishing them into oblivion. When you could take an entire truck load of German money and still not afford a loaf of bread and you know your two young children are literally going to starve to death, then you will follow crazy things.
US President Woodrow Wilson... who was also a horrible racist when it came to domestic policy, but a great mind when it came to foreign affairs, straight up refused to join with what Europe was doing to Germany because he knew that if you backed a caged dog into a corner it would have no choice to fight back.
He predicted World War 2 would happen down to the exact year.
The two world wars are not really two separate things, but one big war with a long stale mate in the middle.
tough sierra
Sounds pretty likely actually.
Had that same impression.
Punishing a state punishes the people and causes tension.
Taking actions against a culture for anything especially during peace time seems strange to me, unproductive even.
Exception being that you build up defense/offense in anticipation for war.
Mostly because as far as i've seen you can easily anger a culture, but can't bend it to your whim for personal gain much outside of trade deals.
The whole thing about state vs state politics seems strange to me.
Does anyone really believe in helping their own personal culture to the detriment of others even when the ratio of gain to themselves as a collective vs loss to others individually is just way to low?
north torrent
France built up a giant trench system to prepare for WW2.
Then Germany just marched around it...
But anyways, back to the topic. Dealing with China in 2020 means letting them look like they have power on the world stage.
They would give up all sorts of concessions with trade and economics and all the stuff the US wants from China.
But if you go in there trying to bully them, they would turn down an offer that gave them everything they wanted.
Everything the US wants China to do in this trade war could simply be gained by making it look like China is a badass for giving it.
Never going to happen with the current administration who only knows how to bully other nations.
Communication in 2020 is built upon the history of the people involved in said communication.
Having people who don't understand the history of China trying to run negotiations with China ends up creating trade wars that never had to happen.
tough sierra
I can't say for sure but from generally reading comments where folks of that culture go out of their way to speak in english, involving politics, it looked like they were generally in aggressive opposition toward western nations.
Huh probably true.
north torrent
People in China loved the US up until a certain orange balloon became the leader.
tough sierra
What trade changed since then?
Honestly I don't think many of us actually have any clue what we do as far as foreign politics goes.
Personally i don't pay attention to presidency since it's just someone that's mostly a figure head, I doubt a single person can really have as much power as people claim.
north torrent
There are huge tariffs on both sides. I don't have the list pulled up at the moment though.
But US farmers were devastated by the tariff put on soybeans, as China was buying almost all the soybeans they grew. As a result the US government has to bail out the farmers with what basically boils down to socialism for farms.
tough sierra
Ah those are only meant as temp measures though. Soy i think takes a lot of land to properly farm, it's the backbone of animal farming to.
Meaning meat will go up in price.
north torrent
A single person is not supposed to have that much power, but in the last 3 years the cowards in the US government have slowly been giving more and more power to the leader while at the same time doing nothing when the leader abuses the limits of said power.
tough sierra
Most of the citizens here I think are more focused on policies that are domestic.
As long as those aren't insane we don't seem to care.
Shit tends to sneak through during big distractions, like the covid thing >.>
north torrent
Anyways, a lot of the trade war really comes down to the fact that China used to be a 3rd world country that the US would manufacture everything in because they had no pollution policies and the labor was dirt cheap.
But over time the Chinese decided they didn't want to just be sweat shop workers for industrialized nations so they straight up started stealing the plans for all the technology they were building.
They learned from those plans and started making their own.
It is obviously illegal by US standards to just steal the plans for an iPhone from Apple and just go make your own with minimal changes... But it was also Apple who gave the plans to China to build all of those iPhones in their sweatshops.
tough sierra
That explains a lot.
north torrent
So yes, China is wrong to steal technology patents... But when you look at the context it is totally something any of us would have done to bring our community out of being 3rd world sweat shop workers for our rich overlords.
tough sierra
If your curious of my morality polarity about that, i don't consider knowledge something that should be horded.
But that's hard to figure out, i'm not sure what the world would be like if it's not possible to patent ideas/technology.
north torrent
I think the patent and copyright system we have in the US today is just a system to keep the rich rich and the poor poor.
tough sierra
You can't technically steal knowledge though, it's not a thing that one can quantify.
But then the situation about software...
I'm really lost on that.
north torrent
But as a US citizen of over 30 years but a resident of China, and am very much aware that stealing ideas from people is wrong.
But the US side of me would put the blame much more heavily on the companies that sent all their factories over to Chinese sweatshops instead of building American products in America.
tough sierra
That kind of is asking to be kicked in the ass later on.
north torrent
I think the US companies sold out America so they could make more money. They didn't want to pay US workers US wages and they were willing to give China all the stuff that China stole.
That's the real blame. Not China for looking at the stuff they were given by companies such as Apple.
tough sierra
They might have had to, to some degree, to keep up with competition, but also hel even i would be super tempted to do that.
Since the cost of the product would be greatly lowered.
I'd probably put my eggs in both baskets though.
north torrent
That is all propaganda and US indoctrination. The idea that the US couldn't keep up with competition without using sweatshop labor is total bunk.
The CEO would make less money...
tough sierra
As of today's situation I agree since automation is really taking off.
north torrent
But CEOs in the US are making 100x what they were making in the 1980s.
tough sierra
I don't entirely buy the ROI of companies is really all that large.
north torrent
The only people who lose out if the US produces products with US labor are the CEOs that are cheating to become rich.
tough sierra
At least for bigger ones.
north torrent
I'm all for people becoming rich if they are the best of the best and win at life.
But lets say it is a videogame.
If all you ever do is cheat, do you deserve to be rewarded for winning?
What sport are you familiar with, Mr. Koi?
tough sierra
Honestly I keep my nose out of those.
north torrent
Well, I am trying to make an analogy, so there has to be at least one that you understand.
Otherwise I will throw a fish at your face.
tough sierra
Like I don't doubt that they'll make personal decisions to pocket more cash. That's somewhat the name of the game long term when running a company, when your passions dried out or you weren't the original owner who had the previous vision. Things naturally corrupt.
I do also suspect that the ROI for large companies is pretty... Not rewarding.
Naturally a filled market, maybe regardless of the number of competitors, kind of stagnates into scraping for pennies till someone finds the next big game changer.
To be really honest.
I've looked into broad stats and a bit into how restaurants work but i've not actually properly looked into factory expenses vs income.
I was really blown away about something though.
Over here the price of iron is so fucking cheap, so is coal.
But steel.
Is through the roof.
north torrent
Restaurants that aren't large franchises operate on razor thing margins because they have to compete with these large franchises that are allowed to cheat.
tough sierra
I would say that at the least they have a lot of learning to do before they can turn a profit.
I've discovered there's a ton of ways you can go wrong.
north torrent
Things are artificially made to be super hard for small businesses because the large corporations can get away with anything and everything.
Even if they get caught cheating, they get to keep all the advantages they gained through the cheating.
But generally they just buy politicians so they won't get caught cheating.
tough sierra
The pizza hut I worked at has damn near everything down to a science. I don't know about their overall ROI, but during our rare spikes where we get tons of orders for some event or such, the gross income was like 3k and I estimated that employee expenses were... Not even a thousand really. I think the raw revenue was 4k and the gross was 3k
I think to at least some extent you're right.
Those numbers were for one single day btw.
Just during the days where we'd get so slammed that we'd go into a panic.
north torrent
The wealthy franchise owner will be making bank while the workers are slammed and taking all the stress. Then the workers take home a minimum wage paycheck.
tough sierra
It's not really skilled labor, it's something damn near anyone can do.
That aside i've seen management stress, though i've never got to see the life of a CEO.
I'd hate to be in those shoes.
north torrent
But society agreed that 40 hours a week is considered full time working.
If you want to argue that point, we can do that, but it is a totally different conversation that society has already decided upon.
So as a result, any human who works the number of hours that is considered a full week or work should at least have enough money to live.
Otherwise you are saying that people should work for you and then go die. But then who will work for you a month down the line when the people working full time for you died because you didn't pay them enough?
tough sierra
I might be a bit apathic, though to me when starting a business i shouldn't care about how my policies effect their personal lives outside of work. They can take the work or leave it. They aren't obligated or forced to do anything. At least so long as you're thinking about what you're setting as raw income, but I could see the issue when one goes out of their way to pull labor salaries down at a global scale by shier influence.
north torrent
I think if you don't pay your fulltime employees a living wage that you should have your business forcibly taken away from you.
If you resist then you should be thrown in a jail cell.
The idea that people should be thankful for you as a 'job creator' and that they can 'take it or leave it' is just US propaganda that is instilled in the population but sounds like total craziness to sane human beings.
tough sierra
A business really isn't much more than assets, and contracts of trade. You're not really responsible for the wellbeing of those under contract outside the immediate domain of your environment. I'm questioning that a bit, but it's not easy to draw a line when you go outside that as it's a bit too abstract.
Na it's not about being thankful.
It's just professionalism.
north torrent
If you cheat at a game you get removed from the game.
tough sierra
Take it or leave it kind of thing.
north torrent
Lets say everyone is playing Call of Duty online, and a select group of people are doing so much cheating that they always win.
Is it fair to tell everyone else, "Well, you can just take it or leave it. Don't play the game if you don't want them to cheat?"
No, you remove the cheaters so everyone else can play the game fair.
north torrent
It really doesn't.
Devs either remove cheaters or they have given up on a game and moved on to the next big thing.
tough sierra
It might be a bit of a semantic thing.
north torrent
But US citizens can't just leave and go on to the next big country. Most only have one passport and can't live anywhere else without having special skills or a lot of money.
tough sierra
I was thinking of an example like evony, it's riddled with players that bot, but that's become so common place, it's actually added a new depth of play for everyone, and has become more a programming game than a badly designed idle game. But that's a pretty unique case.
north torrent
That's an example of an anarchy community and not how civilized nations operate.
tough sierra
Though it did work out nicely. I don't think a videogame analogy would be close enough to describe what your going for.
I might be too focused on the individual level.
I don't bother with cosmic injustices since they can't be easily measured/handled.
And a lot of individual freedoms can get stomped over in the attempt.
But
I fully admit i'm in the hostage of an ideology, and haven't put sufficient thought into it.
And morality is always a hard thing to figure out.
north torrent
The thing is, society has already agreed on most of these principals. There are just a lot of ways for people to ignore them.
tough sierra
What society dictates as right doesn't mean it's what should be done or would have the best/better result. Though i might be missing your point.
north torrent
But the US as a society has agreed that 40 hours a week is a full time work week.
The US has already decided as a society that if I show up to a Hospital with a life threatening injury that they have to treat me.
So these are constants unless you want to open up a totally different conversation and revisit an old debate that the US has already finalized.
tough sierra
Actually about that.
The second statement you mentioned, that got revoked.
From what I'm told.
Since the healthcare thing that got put in, supposedly insurance and healthcare in general has a lot of tensions and people are getting turned away without health insurance.
north torrent
However, the US will at the same time keep denying you $40 worth of anti-infection medicine because you can't afford it, and then wait till you get a life threatening condition. Then when you are almost dead they will spend $4,000 on saving your life with emergency care.
Hospitals in the US cannot turn you away if you are 100% going to die without care.
tough sierra
That might be a bit of a grey area, might deepened where you live to.
north torrent
But they can turn you away every day until then. Save a penny cost yourself $100.
The CEO doesn't care, as long as he is getting paid big money.
If you are 100% going to die, there is no place in the US that can turn you away.
That is a law that has already been decided on by society. The US society has already decided that a person who will 100% die has to be given medical attention to not die.
A person with an infection does not have to get medical attention until it is fatal.
tough sierra
To my perspective it's his company, I shouldn't have a right to force him to change how he operates if he's not directly causing harm is all.
north torrent
Healthcare should not be privately owned.
And if people are going to die because you are price gouging then you should be charged with 2nd degree murder.
tough sierra
That's definitely an interesting point to consider, it's almost like a utility, too vital to individuals and society at large.
Makes me wonder exactly why we want to and probably even economically should treat them more strictly.
Hell if you fucked with the water system in a roman society I bet you'd be murdered in public.
As an interesting side note. I can't at least currently work for more than 700$ income a month.
Well more like 740 ish but around about that.
Without in effect risk losing the gov assistance.
north torrent
Well, some people aren't eligible for government assistance.
So the fact that some people get government assistance can't be used to justify inhumane treatment of those that work their asses off and get zero help.
tough sierra
Na I get what you mean there.
If we are talking ethics.
Hmm.
It's kind of a weird subject to me because I can't think of a solution that doesn't step on at least some toes, morality wise not just as far as earning favors.
north torrent
But when it comes to the medicines that cost so much money, in a pure capitalist system none of it would exist.
These medicines and the research required to make them is funded almost entirely by government grants, as in taxpayer money.
tough sierra
Oh yeah, the ones that end up being sold super expensive, which i think (or so people say) end up being cheap to produce at the end.
north torrent
But if you wanted to fix the US healthcare system through free market capitalism you would have to start paying the taxpayers back for the money they invested into these medicines that are now being sold for $300 a pill.
tough sierra
That whole thing honestly stinks.
To be honest since i was a kid to my perspective it looked like a lot of people were getting encouraged to take pills that they really didn't need, hell that often hurt them in the process.
Especially for adhd and depression.
north torrent
I am fine with going the free market route as long as these companies are paying back the US taxpayers for the 90% of the company that they funded.
So if a grant covered 90% of the research, 90% of the earnings have to go back to the US people.
tough sierra
And pain meds even to some extent.
Actually yeah i'm a bit surprised grants even exist without strings attached.
It looks pretty exploitable.
north torrent
I'm fine with capitalism and I'm fine with socialism.
What I don't like is socialism for the rich while the poor get left to die under rugged capitalism.
tough sierra
I'm not for the rich or the poor.
north torrent
I honestly don't think the US is as broke as a lot of people seem to think.
I think a few instances of just enforcing rules on things such as grants could solve a large amount of the problems.
That and going back to pre 1980s when corporate buybacks were illegal.
tough sierra
Not something i'd give input on as honestly it's not something i've even remotely looked into.
north torrent
I honestly would rather have a government that doesn't help the poor all that much. Just a government that enforces the rules equally for the rich and the poor so that people can have an equal shot at success without a group of people using cheat codes.
tough sierra
I honestly wish more people would be humble and admit to not understanding things, and at least hold some assumptions on reserve for it.
north torrent
I want to have less welfare but force companies to pay a fair wage for a fair days work.
If someone isn't worth paying a living wage, then fire them.
Companies don't have to hire you if you aren't worth a living wage. But if you aren't going to pay a living wage to 40 hour a week workers, then the government should shut you down and/or throw you in jail.
tough sierra
We do have min wage policies though, every damn time it gets yanked up though it seems like the price of everything else jumps to.
north torrent
That's also another example of US indoctrination...
tough sierra
Na i'm not saying that raising it would be counter productive.
I honestly don't know.
north torrent
You are filling out my Bingo card of examples of US indoctrination...
tough sierra
It's more curious.
north torrent
China has their own indoctrination, it just seems to be more obvious to people than the US and their secretive indoctrination.
tough sierra
That i would assume depended where you spent you're lifetime at.
It's hard to notice the ideologies that have a hold on your persona till you've really dug into them.
north torrent
The only reason prices would go up is because the CEO wanted to keep making record profits even though he was caught cheating, so he passes the punishment down to the customer.
It is hard to see the indoctrination until you live somewhere else for a while and spend most of your time around people from other countries.
tough sierra
Honestly it technically has to be some mix of things, i'm curious to exactly what degree, would be nice to have actual statistics or at least example cases of different company types. Starting from resource gathering, all the way through production to retail.
Where would you draw the line even?
If a company raises the price of say their milk, or their medical services, or their entertainment services? How exactly would one solve for that? And if your still concerned with morality where is the line drawn at with these things?
Having talked with you a while I kind of appreciate these conversations, because you seem patient and willing to observe questions ^-^
tough sierra
So at 1998 somehow CEO salaries on average were close to employee average? That's honestly a bit hard to believe.
Possible but.
north torrent
CEO pay since Ronald Reagan repealed the law outlawing corporation stock buybacks has skyrocketed while the workforce has stagnated.
tough sierra
I always thought that a CEO was permitted to grant themselves whatever salary they wanted so long as they were at least the sole owner of their company or a majority share holder.
north torrent
Prices rising have 100% to do with CEOs never ending greed.
If you are the sole owner of a company you aren't a CEO.
tough sierra
Oh wait da.
tough sierra
That whole thing never made sense to me, i've no idea why i'd ever give up shares to anyone else for a company, seems more hassle than worth not just for personal reasons but productivity.
But.
Hell not the experience to know.
north torrent
Well, that's a whole lesson in economics that I don't have time to teach.
But the simple version is that either the owner wanted to sell or that the owner needed a huge amount of money to open more stores and needed to sell shares to get money to open more.
tough sierra
Ok i guess that makes sense.
I guess after a while people don't want to handle all that hassle.
Appreciate the mountain of perspective ^-^
And you've been rather polite about it.
I wish more discussions about that stuff went that way.
north torrent
Anyways, if someone just keeps hoarding some insane number of items in his or her house that person is called insane.
If I hoarded 400,000,000 cans of corn in my house, 100,000x more than I could ever use in a lifetime, people would think it was time to lock me up in a mental institute.
But if one man hoards the amount of wealth it would take 45,000 lifetimes to spend, for some reason the US looks at that as ok... and not totally insane...
And to just keep hoarding more and more and more and tearing down more and more and more to get it, even though you already have more than anyone could possible ever need... That's just a mentally ill monster, not someone who should be looked up to.
Here is Michael Bloomberg compared to a handful of millionaires.
Those people who you can't even see the blue... They are millionaires...
$12,000,000 isn't enough to even show up on the graph, but that is about what 6 successful humans would earn in a lifetime...
tough sierra
Making income is honestly a game to some.
Which i could see the fun in it.
That aside you could take the money and invest it on whatever you want, scientific projects even.
Which I have the ambition of eventually doing.
Ah yeah that kind of distribution, i'm curious if people with that insane amount of wealth end up funding a lot of things for their own political agendas, probably mostly for fun.
You could potentially change the world around you with that kind of wealth.
Hell john carmack went a bit crazy with spending on projects trying to launch at least something into space.
foggy path
Some recent research suggests the US is not a democracy, but an oligarchy... so yeah they probably spend their crazy wealth on politics that benefit them :P
north torrent
The US is clearly an Oligarchy.
70% - 80% of people will want something, but it will never happen because the US is controlled by the wealthy elite.
mild root
foggy path
the ps5 looks like it should come in sequence after xbox 360 on the xbox side tbh :D
tough sierra
Kinda big looking
I guess that's the issue of needing more bang in the hardware now.
median wraith
lucid walrus
I have a white PS3
pearl elk
Got my PS5
north torrent
I'll have my students build me a PS5.
fathom wadi
im interested to see if the custom ssd speeds are everything they say they are
not that it matters really. as long as the games run
carmine frigate
i dont believe in magical rainbow unicorn SSDs ๐
pearl elk
SSDs are fake news
carmine frigate
thats 100% marketing talk
foggy path
Things can change a lot before launch
I worked at Nokia many a year ago, they had a new phone prototype that software was being developed for... then the final launch version came and a lot of the software ran like ass
Turns out they had downgraded the RAM for the launch version so the memory speeds were significantly worse :P
carmine frigate
just a normal ssd is allready so much faster than a ps4 one
everything is magical compared to that
id care verry lil if my SSD got double as fast
foggy path
Considering how game sizes seem to be ballooning... might actually be useful for it to be even faster at some point
sour shuttle
made a weird discovery today. For whatever reason that I can't put logic to, having spotify running while I try to compile shaders does two things.
a.) speeds up compile time
b.) doesn't let the engine freeze when compiling shaders
I welcome any guess at what possible reason this happens. I've got no clue lol.
@pearl elk had me fooled for a second
fathom wadi
it seems that shader compilation works better when the editor is not the modal application. dunno why
sour shuttle
want to expand on that? my only guess was not very logical, more like an "engines run better when hot" kind of thought process
pearl elk
Woohoo so it wasnt just me, I got fooled by it too ๐
fathom wadi
well the editor takes up resources that reduce available resources for shader cache building, so if you tab out of the editor it automatically reduces some of the load. Freeing up shader cache building resources
sour shuttle
oh, that's not what I thought you were talking about. I always minimize for that reason, but the phenomenon that I'm seeing here wasn't referring to that
my computer usually freezes on shader compiles and usually takes longer to compile shaders, but I'm going through them at least double speed right now and the engine never even stuttered when I hit compile.
i do know spotify to be a resource hog since I believe it is just a chromium app thats electron based or something like that, but chrome never gave this weird result either so I'm stumped.
maybe some kind of audio thread related thing? UE4 does crash when I switch audio devices so honestly its a toss up in my mind
unkempt kindle
Hi
tough sierra
The ps1 was mostly a light grey, and some editions that had their own screen (pretty slick actually i used to have one) were even lighter, almost white.
A lot smaller to.
And if your wondering how it was a lot smaller, well the basic home console only used like a 5th of it's space for the PCB.
Rest... I've no friggin clue, a lot of it wasn't utilized it seems.
Anyway I sleep now, and work my ass off here soon.
rain steppe
What game>?
zinc matrix
@rain steppe mmo my man https://i.imgur.com/Sq0y9YZ.png
chilly igloo
Guys, if motherboard spec says what: 3rd and 2nd Gen AMD Ryzenโข Processors will support AMD 3-Way CrossFireX, it means what we can use 2 or 3 GPU or its like mandatory - only 3 GPU?
grave sleet
@chilly igloo
It will support up to 3 gpus in a crossfire setup. Not sure why anyone would still do that given the fact that almost no game properly supports it anymore and the future in dx12+ would allow multi gpu usage without crossfire/sli. But even then only about 1 in 1000 people would have more than 1 gpu anyway (not accurate number, might need to check steam stats). So no one develops for multi gpu making it a useless feature.
More important: Take a look at the amount of pice slots and how many lanes they support (x16/x8/etc.). In case you intend to use multiple gpus for rendering tasks, having them connected to x16 should be better. But depending on the configuration it will vary anyway. So just check the mainboards manual.
north torrent
I would optimize my game for multiple gpus if I wasn't just a filthy artist...
Otherwise it is just sort of a self fulfilling prophecy loop or something like that...
Nobody develops for multiple gpus because nobody has multiple gpus.
But nobody has multiple gpus because nobody develops for multiple gpus.
But how to optimize for something like that is beyond me, so I will just stick to making pretty pictures.
grave sleet
@north torrent hmm.. What would you say if a company releases a game and tells you, you need two rtx 2070 to run it above 30fps? Sounds rather dissapointing right? Then what about.. you could use two gpus to run the game at 90fps instead of 70ish. Sure, sounds better, but would that really be worth spending more money to buy a second gpu?
Also it wouldnโt scale that well for most things. Might be interesting with rtx cores which already do workloads that could be (more) easily spread accross multiple gpus by design. But thatโs still a crazy amount of work for developers.
I mean we can โhopeโ that Epic Games throws it in for UE5.
But even so... I doubt it would really catch on.
halcyon lake
What is up with people and their vague ass questions:
pls help my guy when he jumps the scope won't line up!
I see questions like that all the time... like, what??
real palm
@halcyon lake people don't know how to ask the correct questions
Or even that the question they're asking isn't specific enough to get meaningful answers
In that case, the question should be is there a better way to drive the arm animation while jumping or something ....
But that's not even particularly vague, I've seen I'm trying to cast to [some type] and it don't work with a super close up image of the function they want to call and no other context
halcyon lake
@real palm ๐
grave sleet
@real palm mostly because they donโt know what they did so far because they only โcopy pastedโ from tutorials instead of adapting tutorial content to their own ideas.
Itโs a normal process in a way, but could still be improved if people would go that extra step first and actually try to understand.
halcyon lake
Or posting a question that obviously requires screenshots and then... silence.
real palm
One thing that particularly gets me going is when I KNOW somebody has the technical knowledge to ask proper questions and they are deliberately obtuse
halcyon lake
^ Yeah I don't get that either. Maybe they aren't that knowledgeable?... Maybe they copy pasted their reputation into place
real palm
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
Either way, they get one time doing that. I'll call them on it so we might be able to proceed, but I have zero patience beyond that initial instance.
grave sleet
Another thing to consider: There are actually many questions I also donโt know perfect the anwser without looking it up, but given enough experience it takes like 20 seconds of google.
While I realize that for us/me thatโs an easy search, itโs incredibly hard for them because they donโt know the correct words.
real palm
And that's fair
Sometimes, I'll share a bit of google-fu with them if I can tell they haven't made the leap
But you can't expect them to know the jargon overnight
tulip orbit
my google-fu is really weak ๐ฆ takes me a long time to search for answers sometimes
zinc matrix
:C
proud pier
man
you can tell how out of touch or blah pcgaming is compared to console with pcgamingshow
zinc matrix
whats that
tough sierra
There are times when you don't find something on google because you were using one extra word or one too few.
I remember having similar issues in OSDev land.
And.
I can't possibly think of how to optimize for utilizing multiple gpu's without actually building the rendering engine.
That means not using a pre existing game engine which I know most of you are against.
Multithreading would already be a bitch I can't imagine how one figures out how to properly utilize multiple gpu's when they each have their own memory space. Which is actually a rather big problem.
Personally i'd never bother, the bottlenecks for me are 99.99% of the time cpu side.
rich quiver
tough sierra
Why the fuck is everyone convinced to use appdata by default ;-;
foggy path
it's the microsoft recommendation I think :P
tough sierra
It's just all around annoying, i want proper clean up damn it.
I want to just go to the folder, delete, and be done with it.
foggy path
honestly I don't think it really matters, except when the files are so freaking big, and they don't clean it up when you uninstall leaving all of it just hanging there
tough sierra
Or move the entire thing onto another drive all self contained.
carmine frigate
no savegames is hardcore
tough sierra
It does matter over time, my last drive can vouch for that.
So many friggin garbage files to search for.
foggy path
yes exactly what I mean with big files they leave hanging
other than that it doesn't matter
:D
foggy path
yeah so what's the problem then?
foggy path
how is that a problem? it's not like you have to manually look at them
tough sierra
Yes i did
carmine frigate
most AAA games are like 10 hour long, just dont put a savegame in there
foggy path
Yes but why did you have to look at them is what I don't understand especially since you said the files were tiny :P
tough sierra
The drive was full.
A 1TB drive, used over about 4+ years before it's last wipe, with a lot of application reinstalls and testing.
It does add up quick.
foggy path
My C drive is 256 GB :X
tough sierra
I cleared absolutely everything non essential and was left with friggin half of that somehow, with a ton of small garbage files.
foggy path
I used to have an 80 GB C drive for a long time too because it was one of those early SSD's...
:D
tough sierra
Honestly it's hard to believe I had that problem with an hdd
Though a lot of the apps I've found don't actually properly clean themselves up with their uninstallers.
They intentionally leave setting files and such behind.
Which annoys the holy fuck out of me by this point.
foggy path
Stop putting all your other crap on C: and you'll be fine lol
foggy path
I guess
tough sierra
Even then it'd go to the app data on the main drive i'd bet.
foggy path
I have nothing installed on my C drive except small utilities like GVim
tough sierra
Or some other obscure location.
What i'd like to see, have everything self contained in a folder by default, if a user uses an uninstaller, it prompts them for the option to save setting files IN AN EXPLICIT UP FRONT LOCATION.
Honestly same.
Even though I won't be able to afford the ps5
foggy path
yeah it would be nice if you had more control over it for sure
it's just one of those things that is going to confuse the shit out of average users I suspect so not sure if that'll happen
foggy path
Yeah that's a really good approach to making software
I think there's ways to move it using NTFS junctions or something
tough sierra
Oof i really do get angry over semi petty stuff.
foggy path
:D
tough sierra
I'm not sure why but something about the culture of "don't worry about how your software effects the ecosystem of the end user" erks me. It's not professional. Don't be wasteful with memory, account for your bytes, try to lower the cpu cycles, at the very least so they can multitask easier.
carmine frigate
about savegames , contra 2 ๐
i played it so many times to finish it, a friend got a NES mini and i stil knew every jump ๐
tough sierra
Aww man been meaning to actually play that.
carmine frigate
its great 2 player coop, to this day even
brutal hard, no savegames
dunno how many hours to finish it on a perfect run, but its a few
it was called probotector 2 in europe
with humans replaced with robots
foggy path
I think it's good if you have passion about things like trying to make good use of resources and such but if it really actually makes you angry it might be a good idea to think about why it makes you feel that way
Just sayin' cos stuff used to do that with me as well and I think it was because of some other problems I had
pastel epoch
halcyon lake
@grave sleet and @real palm :
I cannot fucking stand it when people ask a question, and you go on Google and type it in and there is their answer, plain as day. It's like, no. Piss off, get off our discord server
although it probably has to be filtered through your own experience. sometimes it's easy to forget what it was like to be brand new. but sometimes, it's like... come on, dude, did you even try at all to figure this out yourself?
that's why i adjusted my statement ๐ i'm never rude to anyone
rigid shoal
Devil's advocate, Discord is the new Google.
halcyon lake
i was just talking about the attitude of "hey, can y'all figure this out for me?"
rigid shoal
Besides, sometimes you could get an answer from Google, but perhaps a better answer from Discord. Especially with UE4.
halcyon lake
instead of: here is what i've tried, here is what i can't figure out, can someone please offer their wisdom to get me back on the right track?
you're making me look mean ponkkis lol. you get what i'm sayin
chilly igloo
@halcyon lake i dont think what you are 100% right. First: sometimes you clearly realize what you want to aks, but you dont really know HOW to ask (language barrier, lack of terminology, etc) . And probably when you google for other person, you already make a "google language" translation so its you get a proper search results, but not the person who, maybe, already try to google but with no luck cause he doesnt ask in correct manner:)
And second: i guess sometimes people ask questions just cause they want some people-to-people interaction, at least or specifically just with a text ๐คทโโ๏ธ People love do blah-blah-blah sometimes ๐
halcyon lake
that's not what i'm talking about, folks! there is a difference, you can tell when someone wants help with their homework and when someone just wants to get the answer
winter zealot
anyone can feel ok about asking questions in #cpp regardless of the questions
worst case scenario, no one will answer but people aren't gonna be anoying about "bad beginner questions"
eager chasm
@grave sleet and @real palm :
I cannot fucking stand it when people ask a question, and you go on Google and type it in and there is their answer, plain as day. It's like, no. Piss off, get off our discord server
@halcyon lake I kinda get your annoyance when people asks the same simple question 100+ trillion times and that they can get the answers literally on the first search result from Google. Not being 'into tech' not justifies ignoring web search. You know, this 'just give me answers, is this so hard?' approach.
winter zealot
I do ask googlable questions all the time and when i can I answer them too and it's fine ๐
just that people not linking these kind of questions, well... shouldn't read them anyway
eager chasm
I do google things because getting answers are generally alot faster there. ๐ Like .025 ms. That fast. ๐
winter zealot
yeah but for instance, yesterday I had an exception crash and couldn't pinpoint the cause
99% of the time -100% of the time ? - it's because of trying to use a nullpointer except this time the code was using an enum
eager chasm
Well, but this is a specific problem, not something that was answered 100 times. I'm talking about that kinds of general simple questions.
winter zealot
the answer was it still was a nullpointer but I didn't debug my code correctly for some reason
so anyone reading my question could be like " well he's trying to use someVariableUsingAPointer->SomeEnum " so it means someVariableUsingAPointer is nullptr
and people could easily be "just use goodles dude" and it's fine
it's just that for me it wasn't just a googlable question.. some people are barely starting with rotators well guess what they're going to ask obvious questions about rotators
I understand it's very anoying to read these if you're in a computer science degree or something
but that's jut communitites in general
eager chasm
the answer was it still was a nullpointer but I didn't debug my code correctly for some reason
@winter zealot xD Happens. about few weeks ago I've build the kernel from the config that I forgot to remove while experimenting with the parameters before and forgot to make a backup. Guess how fun of a process was recovering all that tat. ๐
halcyon lake
some questions have no decent answer via google. i ran into that the other day, trying to figure out the difference between OnPerceptionUpdated and OnPerceptionTargetUpdated, or whatever they're called. there was not really anything out there to help me so i posted it in #gameplay-ai
winter zealot
but even if they have a decent answer to google people have the right to ask them
halcyon lake
the documentation for some stuff is just awful
winter zealot
just trying not to have this place not turned into a douchy computer science jock locker room
eager chasm
the documentation for some stuff is just awful
@halcyon lake and for other... well, awful and outdated, making it really hard to follow only to realize that it doesn't apply to the product anymore.
eager chasm
This actually annoys the hell out of me
foggy path
Unity's docs are stellar in comparison sadly :P
rigid shoal
UE4's docs are the source code and/or in the source code.
winter zealot
some time ago, a guy was asking a question about cg in here, and another guy told him to f_off ... I had to call the admins to ask them if it was ok to ask noob questions into # lounge... it obviously is , and the other guy had to take back his " f_off" with him
eager chasm
Unity's docs are stellar in comparison sadly :P
@foggy path well, I've never used Unity, but from what I've heard, it's less sophisticated then UE4 in general.
halcyon lake
i like ue better. i didn't really have a choice though. the new unity update a few months back would just crash on launch for me
winter zealot
also yeah unity docs are state of the art
eager chasm
CryEngine barely existing documentation laughts so hard right now
winter zealot
the api too... it's consistent... doesn't have a countless stupid refactors at every update... etc etc
foggy path
Unity's fairly good imo but it's lacking things like the nice material editor, blueprints, the behavior trees, some audio stuff
I'm sure a lot of that can be complemented with plugins for it but yeah
winter zealot
but it's ok.. UE4 has Rama's wikis and forums ... it can be made sense of
yeah unity is more barebones ๐
@eager chasm also yay for the recovery ! that must have been quite a ride ๐
grave sleet
CryEngine barely existing documentation laughts so hard right now
@eager chasm
When I last talked with the guys from Crytek they said they heavily invested in documentation. It should be better now than 2-3 years ago. Didnโt check it myself though.
eager chasm
I would love to see RAGE (Rockstar Advanced Game Engine, not that creepy game from our beloved Bethesda) docs, just out of curiosity. Because from what I've seen in GTAV and RDR2, seems like even it's developers still hasn't quite figured out how to make the games on in properly. ๐
foggy path
I suspect for internal engines docs are non existent :P
because you have folks on call who can just fix and explain
grave sleet
@foggy path Internal Staff training by Techincal Artists is common in companies with their own engines.
eager chasm
because you have folks on call who can just fix and explain
@foggy path and they're like "just praise, it should work... maybe... hopefully...". Like, Vulkan implementation of RDR2 is just astonishingly bad.
foggy path
:D
Probably
We have a WYSIWYG thinger at work that we've been building for years
It's probably pretty fucking hard to use for someone new to it :P
It's a constant battle trying to figure out how to make it more user friendly because it's got certain features which are inherently complicated and how do you make it not when you really can't
eager chasm
Sometimes, I think, folks in charge of 'making things user friendly' making it really harder to use their software just because they start to forget that people actually use their software to get the job done and not to stare at beautiful non-functional interface that has a response time of a banana.
foggy path
you described "giving it jazz" or "making it pop" not "making ir user friendly" lol
chilly igloo
Guys, speaking of question and googling... google doesnt help me i swear!
Based on tests which i saw and what people says, AMD threadrippers doesnt really show better performance (at least with a comparison to same core/threads general ryzens 7/9) in cases like - sculpting in Zbrush, modeling, texturing and so on.
But what about situations when we want to use multiple programs simultaneous? Like - we want to substance designer and painter to be opened + blender/unreal engine 4.
As i understand in this case threadrippers like with 16/24 cores can show good results? Like yeah, we will still have a bit worst performance then we will stick to active work (like paint in painter, make a stroke in Zbrush) but generally that kind of threadripper based system in this particular case with a multiple opened softwares will show better performance versus less core but more Ghz ryzens, right?
eager chasm
@chilly igloo generally, building from source (make -j128? :) ), rendering (something like Blender's cycles on CPU). And stuff like ZBrush is usually GPU bound, so don't expect any major performance increase there. About the strokes in ZBr - they're CPU bound, tho not very well parallelized. Virtualization (if you have multiple VMs on your system) will benefit A LOT. I think this CPUs are great for something like mid-tier Citrix Xen infrastructure deployment.
Btw, unless you use all these programs that you've mentioned simultaneously, like rendering scene in 3ds max, compiling shaders in UE4, maybe building some project in Visual studio while sculpting a dragon in ZBrush, the decent 8-core will be fine. You'll probably hit IO limits faster with that kind of operations though :)
grave sleet
@chilly igloo Compiling, hybrid renderers or cpu renderers, transcoding (depending on the software).
chilly igloo
compiling shaders in UE4
@eager chasm btw... i wonder, is more cores on threadripper will make compiling shaders faster in ue4?
eager chasm
@chilly igloo it should. But I don't know if the UE4 Shader Compiler is NUMA-aware. TR's, at least the 64C ones, has 2 NUMA nodes and Compiler might use only one of them. Better consult somebody who actually knows how this thing works with UE4 I guess.
grave sleet
@quiet narwhal Already? That was fast ๐
quiet narwhal
UE4 engine compile times went from 40m to 15m, and each shader when it needs to compile uses it's own thread
grave sleet
@quiet narwhal Glad it works for you and congratz.
quiet narwhal
and according to people with real threadrippers, the 32 and 64 2x and 3x series UE4 defintitely will use as many threads as you have for: Lightmas, ShaderCompiler, and engine compilation.
chilly igloo
Well... days of suffering because i was unable to chose between ryzen 9 and threadripper was over.
Threadripper i chose you!
quiet narwhal
IF you can afford it and cool it and you need what it can give you its a pretty linear increase across the ryzen chips
dusky shuttle
did anyone have their account blocked from purchases? i have no idea why i got blocked
chilly igloo
Well, i cant afford 3nd gen. So unfortunately i will start from pretty basic 1920x
quiet narwhal
at some point depending on what you do you might need to make sure your data drive can support the operations, 128 threads doing an engine compile or shader compile where it's a ton of small data operations needs a drive that can handle it
is a 1920x even worth it anymore with the 3900x around?
the 2700x was fantastic, nice upgrade from my 5820k. Only bought it as a stopgap to the 3950x last year as I got it used with a x470 mainboard for $200
so when I upgraded to the 3950x I didnt need to get a new board just replaced the chip and had a cheap cpu upgrade for a year lol
2700x with the wraith cooler it came with even under full load would do 4ghz on all cores at ~75c, worked very nicely
chilly igloo
is a 1920x even worth it anymore with the 3900x around?
@quiet narwhal 3900x are slightly better, but meh... its not about having beefy workstation now, its more about future upgrade options. And with TR4 i can go up to 2990x which are twice more cores versus Ryzen 3950x.
quiet narwhal
@chilly igloo yeah that was what I was curious about, i didnt know if the 19 and 29 series used the same mainboards. sounds like what I did basically but with the ryzens not TR
It's a good plan if you do it ๐
I had the thought of going with the 2970x instead of this 3950x but there is a point of diminishing returns for cost and new board plus the 2970x seemed like a loss leader for now
dusky shuttle
in the end there will be a down time, doesn't matter if you have a cpu from the future. once you hit build, you'll have to wait, so the workflow ain't gonna change much. build at low settings while you work and play solitaire while building is doing its thing, and build on high settings before you go to bed
i upgraded to the 3900x and my workflow stayed the same
i regret upgrading because this thing needs a beefy cooler
grave sleet
@dusky shuttle It surely matters for your employer xD
dusky shuttle
i don't have one, i'm just doing this for fun
grave sleet
Well thatโs okay then xD
Just saying, if you get payed to code such stuff those minutes quickly add up.
chilly igloo
in the end there will be a down time, doesn't matter if you have a cpu from the future.
@dusky shuttle compiling shaders are pain. And im not speaking about like 8000 shaders compiling. I speaking about developing just 1 shader at a time. When its go to translucency - i know i will suffer, and i dont want it anymore! I deserve more! ๐ญ
dusky shuttle
then you seem like you could use these extra cores, good for you. i just use simple shaders that already compiled quickly on my 8-yo computer
just saying many people don't need a top-of-the-line cpu
stop looking at these beautiful bars in cpu benchmarks
chilly igloo
stop looking at these beautiful bars in cpu benchmarks
@dusky shuttle but they are SO beauty!!1 ๐คค
halcyon lake
@foggy path maybe the best thing you can do is give users multiple ways to achieve any particular workflow? just a thought. ue does that with all kinds of stuff
zinc matrix
UT discord has over 100k members but the mapping and modding channels are dead
wet horizon
north torrent
So like my life?
north torrent
I'm just going to buy a PS5 for the bluray player...
tulip orbit
I already have a ps3 for that
north torrent
Playstation fans : Why does the new Xbox look like a trashcan
Xbox fans : Why does the new Playstation look like an oversized wifi router?
PC fans :
tulip orbit
thats cool.
sage ermine
hey ho
anyone here know about unbreaking substance textures when you migrate a 4.23 project to 4.24?
foggy path
@halcyon lake yeah it's not a bad idea, the problem is just that most of the complexities exist in a tool a bit similar to the ui widget designer in UE, so for example the anchoring system in UE is not exactly easy to understand for beginners :) Our best attempts so far attempt to automate some of it so the system can predict reasonable defaults and if the user wants to change it they can
zinc matrix
hoh my ladies
pearl elk
weird I just got given a heap of steam cards for EA games
north torrent
Is that Australias stimulus package?
pearl elk
I dunno I think maybe both EA and Valve were feeling the pinch abit so they decided to buddy up again
Now I have to be careful not to buy games I already own on Origin
foggy path
That's why GOG Galaxy 2.0 is convenient
can link all these services and see it at a glance
I've noticed I actually own some games twice, but it's always something I got for free :P
pearl elk
yeah I got all my games on there linked, its handy cuz it supports PSN as well. I always gotta double check that since some games I buy on PS4 as the experience is slightly more tuned for console
north torrent
I paid about $30 for one year or Origin games. Mostly just play Star Wars Battlefront and Mass Effect with it. And some smaller indie games available on their marketplace like Unravel.
pearl elk
Ive tried not to claim free Epic games I already own too to save from confusion since the cloud saves arnt cross-store
north torrent
I got Civ 6 on Epic Games store for free even though I own the Steam version.
I want to buy the DLC from Epic instead of Valve.
foggy path
I wonder if claiming free games on epic actually pays the developer per claim or if epic did some other kind of deal
north torrent
Probably a one time payment to the developer.
foggy path
I would assume they can't be just giving them away without any deal with the developer
pearl elk
Im actually liking to fact I get more choice in where I want to buy now, its how it should be in a free market
north torrent
Its weird that Steam is still just as lazy and letting themselves slide more into mediocrity even with more competition...
grave sleet
They do get compensated.. itโs simply advertising money sent to devs instead of google. Win - Win
north torrent
Steam is like that super hot girl that you were super excited to get married to... But then once you got married she just started to let herself go and is now 120kg and never takes care of her skin or hair or whatever else.
Then your new 20 year old secretary comes along and starts flirting with you, but your wife is confident enough to not feel threatened and continues to take you for granted and not try....
Steam... sigh...
Taking gamers for granted since 2014...
pearl elk
Not sure how Mr Sweeney would take to being called a secretary
north torrent
The analogy is about attractiveness and not job placement...
pearl elk
Intelligence is sexy ๐
north torrent
So what are you saying about secretaries with that comment?
pearl elk
Im saying that intelligent secretaries are hot regardless of body weight
dumb wives need to be divorced hehe
north torrent
Ok.
north torrent
Has Steam done even one little thing to try to improve?
pearl elk
Well more recently they have, the new search, the new friends, the new library and whatnot
north torrent
Are they under the impression they are so perfect that they don't need change?
Maybe they should try to make an actual usable ratings system.
pearl elk
Its still really difficult to find games on there by browsing, most of what you'll see is the usual suspects
north torrent
And maybe do something to help indie developers not get lost in a sea of throw away games...
Is Playstation 5 going to have a DisplayPort?
pearl elk
No idea, I think the newer HDMI standard supports higher framerates though
north torrent
Which is better at HDR? HDMI or Displayport?
pearl elk
Probably depends more on the monitor, there are lots of different versions so even if you have a Displayport it might be an older standard
north torrent
What I was trying to figure out is that with the ever changing new versions of HDMI and Displayport, which one is better at this point in time, as in can handle HDR without sacrificing 4k at 120hz.
I think Displayport had 1.4 now... not sure, still reading.
pearl elk
Well I havent heard MS say anything about Displayport and they are pushing up to 120hz for the XSX
Id assume they are both pretty close now, in the early days though HDMI was a fair bit behind
north torrent
Displayport 2 can do 4k at 240hz or 8k at 85hz.
But that is reduced when you do HDR.
HDMI 2.1 can do 4k at 144hz or 8k at 40hz.
So it seems Displayport still wins out by a decent margin.
Displayport 80 Gbps
HDMI 40 Gbps
Either way, I don't think monitor technology has quite caught up to where it needs to be for me to mess with HDR. Still probably another year or two before we get good HDR monitors for an affordable price.
This is what I really want, but not for almost $4,000.
That or OLED monitors in the next 2 years or so...
With OLED screens in laptops I think it is inevitable that we finally get a smaller OLED monitor for a decent price.
fathom wadi
Not the best start to the day when you shut down your pc last night, but woke up and it was awake, and Microsoft edge installed itself.
grave sleet
And they keep changing the icon hoping you wouldnโt notice^^
fathom wadi
Even better. Cant uninstall the shit.
the only good thing about this is I get to learn a bit more about Powershell as I delete it with brute force because nope....
rare sparrow
Isn't that the new Chromium version?
fathom wadi
well it installed last night without permission... so it could be anything for all I know
foggy path
What's the problem? I mean it's not like you have to use it :D
Edge is actually sorta okay... I have used it on occasion for testing purposes since I do web dev, and sometimes opening some random pages and it's decent
fathom wadi
the problem is last night I switched off my pc. Today I wake up, its switched on and installed Microsoft Edge, which I do not want on my computer. Ever.