cause if you are crit assassin and you are always critting
#1┃mirage-league
wary stratus
I'm more inclined to go for opportunistic just because most of the time it's going to be the biggest DPS increase
quartz dome
I mean it also has "20% more damage while a rare/unique is nearby" which sounds pretty good since bossing is always sort of a problem point for certain builds e: although it's "at most" one so... hum
wary stratus
ambush and assassinate is going to do fuck all for a poison assassin most of the time
fluid moat
???????????????????
wary stratus
the full life stuff only applies on the first hit, and by the time a target is on low life it's already dead as far as poison is concerned
dealing more damage when the target is already basically a corpse is stupid
shell hull
ambush an assassinate should be 2/3rds of the time you get + 100% critical strike chance
fluid moat
Well, auto crit any trash means your clear will be assured and without problem
shell hull
thats kind of how i read it to
at full health you crit once
they then at low health
then you kill them
so like first cobra lash hits -> low health -> 2nd hits, dead
fluid moat
against bosses, culling strike is 11% more dps alone, and then you have 20% more damage and auto crit (with poison dealing a lot more damage this way) at low life
The low life bonus is easily another 9% more damage
wary stratus
by the time you get a boss to low health you already have enough poisons on the target for them to die as an assassin, it's just a matter of time
the 100% more critical strike chance against enemies that are on low life isn't going to apply retroactively to existing poison stacks
quartz dome
it's probably not for poisons exclusively
fluid moat
no, but the 20% more damage will probably
quartz dome
low life cull and damage is good for non-poison or CoC builds
wary stratus
I'm reasonably confident that the 20% more won't apply retroactively either
quartz dome
it likely won't yeah
wary stratus
I don't remember elemental overload applying retroactively to ignites
I wish they just added another poison node so we didn't even need to consider these tbh
quartz dome
opportunistic lasts an entire fight so you get 20% more at all times instead of just 35% of the time... granted you could also just take both of them depending on your build and raze everything
wary stratus
just give assassin the poison prolif node from pathfinder
stone belfry
Okay, so quick question: are prolifs and removing corpses mutually exclusive?
fluid moat
you mean prolif for a dead monster?
like you shocked it, it died, it still profil shock?
tiny flint
what leaked this time?
wary stratus
prolif requires a corpse (edit: or a living monster I guess)
if you destroy the corpse the prolif stops
lucid stone
I mean for the necro node
stone belfry
Basically, can a poison pathfinder remove corpses so their on-death effects don't proc
while still spreading poison
with her ascendancy
wary stratus
you mean the "enemies near corpses you spawned recently are X" thing?
pretty sure that means you have to desecrate or unearth
or summon zombies with the aukuna's will gloves
stone belfry
When you kill a poisoned enemy during a flask effect, nearby enemies are poisoned
does that require a corpse?
lucid stone
Hmmm
stone belfry
Okay, how to destroy corpses on a pathfinder?
wary stratus
inpulsa is one way
stone belfry
You're poison so you don't freeze
wary stratus
pyre ring
wary stratus
why do you want to destroy corpses exactly anyway
wary stratus
cwdt offering
stone belfry
or maybe pathfinders just can't delve too deep?
wary stratus
or uh, I dunno
lucid stone
Dont wetas still go boom without a corpse?
languid path
I mean, poison itself already can't delve too deep
wary stratus
bubonic trail destroys corpses too
languid path
doesn't matter if you destroy corpse or not
wary stratus
devouring diadem eats corpses every 5 seconds
lucid stone
Isn't there some wonky build that uses heartbound loop with aukunas and bubonic trail?
wary stratus
though tbh I wouldn't expect much from a poison build in delve
if you're not one shotting / freezing things and/or offscreening you're not going to survive very deep in delve
without some insane defenses
lucid stone
You still freeze based on damage, right? There's no 'freeze is an ailment so it only scales off base damage' nonsense, right?
wary stratus
freeze is based off of whatever damage types are eligible to freeze in your build
sly tusk
Wonder how that works mechanically with 1 shots
lucid stone
But something like controlled destruction would still help me freeze?
sly tusk
Like if you have 100% chance to poison, and you would 1 shot a mob, would it shatter?
lucid stone
Poison builds probably aren't oneshotting anything
wary stratus
freeze doesn't deal damage so I don't know why you think it would ignore spell modifiers
lucid stone
But I think bleed doesn't apply on oneshots, so maybe poison doesn't either
wary stratus
all it cares about is how much damage you deal that is capable of freezing
lucid stone
Because it's an ailment.
Okay, then that's just for damaging ailments?
Where they only take into account the base damage and special modifiers?
lucid stone
Looks like the only way I can freeze with fire damage is Leper's Alms. :/
wary stratus
also you definitely aren't going to be one shotting monsters in delve on a poison build so it really doesn't matter how that ring works
lunar stirrup
Can anyone tell me the story how did the leak happen?
languid path
random russian posted image on a russian gaming board
nothing else is known
everything else is just speculation
swift pagoda
+2 to all minion gems looks busted
stable socket
I wonder if essence glutton is enough to replace mistress of sacrifice
mild bough
+2 to all minion gems are OP
slender jetty
I like the way the Necro changes look. I never really liked how the ascendancy was just "pick your minion type"
mild bough
cast a corpse? how that work?
lucid stone
Unearth as a main skill?
violet nymph
Detonate Dead, Volatile Dead, Cremation, are spells that require corpses on the ground to do damage
lucid stone
Also bodyswap
mild bough
no no i mean like whats a corpse caster?
violet nymph
Well, basically a VD build
mild bough
like summon the dead
lunar stirrup
Why is the Commander of Darkness those last 2 line red?
got any changes?
i can't see it
violet nymph
It's in PoB, it's not factoring into damage calcs
lunar stirrup
okay weird
mild bough
they probably remove it
wet crow
No it is just PoB not calculating it, it always does this, you can see it does the same with the new "damage over time multipliers" aswell
mild bough
Imagine one of the POE employees saw this. I bet they gonna said:
"Shit they on to us."
Praised
violet nymph
wow
eager terrace
has arrived le toucan
violet nymph
How do you praise this?
chilly palm
I want more leaks
violet nymph
Le has Toucan Arrived
lunar stirrup
damn why they remove Flesh Binder
wadafuq ...
hope there's unique replacing it
that poison gas isn't that OP ...is fun to have it
restive wren
there's a unique belt that has the caustic ground now except it's all minions instead of just zombies
restive wren
no that was teased officially
lucid stone
Would also work on resummon
restive wren
yeah resummon counts as death
lunar stirrup
hmmm true
lucid stone
I hope this last week goes quick. >.>
restive wren
also just in general a few of the necromancer bonuses for specific minions are getting moved into the gems themselves
lucid stone
Seems like there's fewer 'additional zombie' nodes on the tree
violet nymph
They're like to roll those into the gem itself
lucid stone
There might be a spectre wheel. 🤷
violet nymph
They did it with zombies and skellies somewhat
lunar stirrup
ya should had been in skill tree
sly tusk
Does anyone actually have the json loaded into pob? Or is everyone just compiling from screen shots on 2ch?
lunar stirrup
necro meant for corpse play
lucid stone
I think it's all screenshots from russian discount 4chan
violet nymph
How the fuck
lunar stirrup
completely wipe my old memory
chilly palm
by reddit user
mild bough
you know what I wanna see : "A zombie bomber."
Raise zombie - minion speed - minion instabilty - feeding frenzy support (or whatever the new gem call) - and that item that doesn't require an item but you can still raise zombie - and Detonate dead
lunar stirrup
meh
lucid stone
So is that corpse thing not additive with minion life from spectres?
lunar stirrup
is like shock ground
lucid stone
Cause that's a 50% more damage buff for minion instability
lunar stirrup
no no
restive wren
I don't think DD and minion instability work together
lucid stone
Unearth + Raise Spectre?
wary smelt
corpse pact would be 20% damage shock
lunar stirrup
ambush and assinate is completely trash especially in PoE
accidently degen, NOT ON FULL LIFE anymore
rustic sentinel
Yeah I was really looking forward to them reworking that node
restive wren
good for autobomber
rustic sentinel
They only touched the poison part of sin and mine part of sab
wary smelt
hopefully the leaks arent the final versions
rustic sentinel
Great but the crit part is still shit
restive wren
the changes to assassin are very defence-focused which is probably fine considering you weren't really short on damage in the first place.
rustic sentinel
I can’t believe a whole notable is just get power charges, especially with how easy power is to get
wind copper
shouldnt it either be ass and sab or sin and teur?
fluid moat
I would suggest Sass
rigid saffron
is there already a perfect agony leak?
steel folio
pier and wharf are t1 farming fusings is going to be fairly easy at low tiers
hot quail
Same with jungle valley for jewellers -> fusings
Personally haven't seen perfect agony leak
lucid stone
6l Tremor Rod gonna be super easy. ^w^
steel folio
3 really good maps to drop your first shaper's orb on
delicate acorn
pier and wharf are both Lucky Connections drop areas i take it?
lucid stone
Relatively.
steel folio
@delicate acorn yeet
hot quail
yes scootalewis
steel folio
i'd probably shape jungle valley because the windripper card can drop to
hot quail
Yeah probably good value that one for shaped orb
steel folio
i want them to release sab reworks because i want to see something wacky
hot quail
assume since you're here you've seen the leaked info?
steel folio
they haven't release the rework tho right?
hot quail
Not officially no
steel folio
was it leaked?
hot quail
yes
steel folio
i want to see it where can i?
ocean mulch
the album linked above has a fair amount of stuff
steel folio
is it stickied?
limpid wigeon
ancestral call on a notable feels weird man
how did these leaks even happen? someone break nda or something?
or did an article get published too soon
hot quail
you're referring to the tribal fury notable?
limpid wigeon
i am yeah
silver kettle
broke NDA
limpid wigeon
what a knob
that notable is honestly ridiculous
it's better than a 50% more multiplier
stone belfry
what one?
hot quail
useless though if you're fighting one boss though 😉
limpid wigeon
tribal fury for strikes
stone belfry
tribal fury?
limpid wigeon
no see its good for bossing because you can melee at mid range
hot quail
Transendence however is pretty pog for defence
stone belfry
is there an album of these leaks?
hot quail
I linked it above
steel folio
if you can get ancestral call on the passive tree it makes me really want to play dominating blow
hot quail
AC + dom blow guardian or necro?
I'm tempted to try out a silly idea for my league starter in the form of necro volatile dead soulthirst based on the new nodes
hot quail
Sssssh give him a chance to find out for himself 😉
limpid wigeon
assassin changes seem strong? I guess? still a 0 survivability ascendancy for poison builds at the very least
can't really afford to skip on deadly infusion
though it's definitely a lot stronger for generic crit heavy builds
carmine fiber
problem is
limpid wigeon
new pathing for non-poison builds is probably unstable + deadly infusion, opportunistic, mistwalker
carmine fiber
people didn't play assassin even though it had good dps anyway
adding more crit in is just like 🤷
still suffers from the same problems as before and does the same thing (crit all the things)
sly tusk
I want to know what they replaced +1 zombies/specters wirh
limpid wigeon
i mean now it gets conditional 18% reduced damage taken and easy elusive
limpid wigeon
so i think assassin is legit decent for generic builds now
carmine fiber
it might be, yea
limpid wigeon
depends on how big the definition for nearby is on opportunistic
if it's tiny then still pretty bleh
hot quail
necro hoag 
limpid wigeon
poison doesnt seem like it has gotten very much support on the tree
carmine fiber
didn't need it
hot quail
lots of the sources of non-ailment multi have been converted to chaos multi though
limpid wigeon
its bad at everything
it also feels terrible
its a skill with no sound or visual effects
you might as well be basic attacking as a zombie build, you'd be stronger
steel folio
but dom blow minions are hilariously aggresive and loud AF
hot quail
dex stacking necro using nulls + hoag for all the poison 
limpid wigeon
pretty shocked that zerker didnt get any nerfs
hot quail
just use the coming calamity for 6 link hoag damage and essence more attack speed gloves with tornadoshot, poison, culling and maybe blind or something.. ez game
carmine fiber
coming calamity 🤢
past obsidian
coming calamity makes me feel physically ill
limpid wigeon
mfw when raider changes are a nerf 
ocean mulch
was the avatar node the only raider change
mystic canopy
so the only things leaked were the tree?
ocean mulch
or did i miss others
limpid wigeon
avatar is the only one i can see
mystic canopy
no gems or anything?
limpid wigeon
i can only assume that it isnt final
avatar of the veil
the change to it isnt even good
fluid moat
raider was up only, no nerf at all
limpid wigeon
no its absolutely a nerf
ocean mulch
yea i wasn't impressed by it lol
fluid moat
no it's not
limpid wigeon
they got 10% movement speed and 15% less accuracy rating aura while phasing
they lost 40% increased ele dmg and the ability to use woc
fluid moat
...................
ocean mulch
it lowers their ele resist too
fluid moat
ok, why do you say it's a nerf when you didn't even read everything?
ocean mulch
but idk how that maths out
limpid wigeon
let me explain
unreal star
increased ele damage now comes from the preceding node
limpid wigeon
woc applies exposure
so raiders could already get that easy with a cwdt
it doesn't stack
so the exposure on veil is basically useless for raiders that already used woc
unreal star
but they don't lose the opportunity of using woc for exposure
the strongest exposure applies
40% increased elemental damage got moved from avatar of the veil to quartz infusion
which you would pick up anyway if you're traveling to avatar of the veil
limpid wigeon
how do you know that? i dont see that on the album
unreal star
limpid wigeon
oh ok
fluid moat
also
limpid wigeon
the album i was looking at only had veil
limpid wigeon
you can see how i would think its a nerf if that was the only change
fluid moat
so you can play multi element
unreal star
in the leaks they've been taking stats from nodes and giving them to their preceding nodes
proper widget
holy shit raider buff, i;'m gonnac ry
fluid moat
yeah, but it's like looking at avatar of slaughter and say "the frenzy charge disappeared, huge nerf"
unreal star
to make the travel nodes more appealing
limpid wigeon
right i mean obvs its not a nerf now i have the full picture
i was looking at this
past obsidian
Isn't the -15% more damage
unreal star
it's not more it's a separate multiplier if you want to look at it that way
lucid stone
It's like EE
unreal star
if it's your only source of elemental resistance reduction it is essentially a more multiplier
limpid wigeon
raiders the new budget survivability king for sure
super easy to cap dodge and eva
past obsidian
Can I also say how much I HATE unnatural strength node
It's such a lazy node design
+2 to all minion gems
Ok
That's it?
lucid stone
3.9 = Every ascendancy gets '+ blah gems levels'
Really hope that changes on release.
unreal star
it's not lazier than "increased damage" / "increased minion life"
lucid stone
What would you add to the node?
past obsidian
@unreal star At least there's a bunch of other stuff other than the damage and life
violet nymph
Less tears about it not being anything else
past obsidian
I wouldn't add anything, I am just not a fan of +x to gem nodes tied to ANY ascendancy
lucid stone
TBH, I don't really like the amount of global gem levels we're getting
violet nymph
Doesn't matter if it's broad or not, it's fucking N e c r o m a n c e r
past obsidian
It forces people to go necromancer for minions because +2 is too strong
lucid stone
I was expecting cold iron point to be the only source of that
limpid wigeon
i mean would you be ok with elementalist getting a node that just says +2 to level of all elemental gems
unreal star
no it definitely doesn't force you to go for necromancer
limpid wigeon
pretty snooze if you ask me
past obsidian
I mean stuff like indomitable army are kinda generic, you can get it elsewhere
lucid stone
No but it forces necromancers with summons to take that node
past obsidian
Why would you not to get +2
lament zodiac
@past obsidian does it? though?
lucid stone
Well not really forces
violet nymph
What...else would they take?
past obsidian
+2 is a huge deal once you stack a lot of + levels
lament zodiac
there are so many +2/+1 all gem items now
lucid stone
But any build that's minmaxing will take it
limpid wigeon
no?
past obsidian
Yeah and it goes up way more in power when you get another +2
And it's only availble in necromancer
steel folio
so raider is just green berserker with no ramp time now?
limpid wigeon
there's also not so many +2/+1 all gem items now
violet nymph
You're not doing a good job of selling your point.
lament zodiac
True but you potenitally also lose other things
limpid wigeon
raider is nothing like zerker bleh
steel folio
SPEED
lucid stone
What's the opportunity cost of +2 minions gems vs other nodes?
unreal star
plenty of ascendancies have obligatory nodes
limpid wigeon
zerker gets 40% more attack speed
lament zodiac
I mean by going necro
unreal star
there's way worse examples
past obsidian
+2 minion gems is one of the best ways to get a damage boost
limpid wigeon
raider gets like 100% increased maybe
lament zodiac
I doubt any necros will not take the +2 gem
past obsidian
Like a big damage boost
carmine fiber
when you're talking about like
lucid stone
Aurabots
past obsidian
@carmine fiber 20 to 22 is a big deal
past obsidian
Yeah
lucid stone
Usually you get a breakpoint at 21 and 26
violet nymph
I cannot wrap my head around this
lament zodiac
the +2 minion gem and +20% more health ascendancy is going to make MI builds insane
carmine fiber
they didn't believe me
steel folio
i don't really know what to make of the necro changes
carmine fiber
then they checked it
past obsidian
I mean even if you disagree with me, I still do not like the design of having +gems in ascendancies
violet nymph
Imagine the node just outright wasn't there. What else would they go for?
violet nymph
I'm just trying to understand the disdain
carmine fiber
bc if you're using empower4 on a 21 gem and have an item that has +gem levels
that +2 is just unskippable
proper widget
its a dangerous kind of power creep
lucid stone
It's kinda meh mechanically.
limpid wigeon
its boriung and funnels builds
lament zodiac
You watch Elementalist will get +2 cold/Fire/lightning gems next patch
past obsidian
@violet nymph I'm not a game designer, they are the ones that will need to come up with something interesting
carmine fiber
it would add like 25% or more dps
lament zodiac
and it will no longer be a dead ascendancy
violet nymph
So what, it's just boring to you?
past obsidian
@lament zodiac Thanks I hate this
past obsidian
what
lucid stone
What if there was like, 'Your minions do 50% more damage while they are on low life'
past obsidian
I didn't say boring any fucking where
limpid wigeon
its not just that its booring
carmine fiber
i think it's the worst kind of powercreep
carmine fiber
because it's busted strong
violet nymph
I'm trying to understand here not put words in your mouth.
carmine fiber
nothing will compare to +2 gem levels
limpid wigeon
incubus i hope you are being paid to white knight for ggg this hard
carmine fiber
well
limpid wigeon
you can understand by reading what we say
violet nymph
I'm not even defending them I'm just confused.
lucid stone
It's a really good node. owo
lament zodiac
@past obsidian sorry that you don't like it. I don't think its that bad but i see your point.
past obsidian
@carmine fiber the fact that a specific ascendancy gets +gems is still the one thing I was praying it will never happen
violet nymph
I understand it fine, it's just so dumb to me I'm trying to figure it out
carmine fiber
it's because +2 gem levels is insanely powerful, to the point that if you didn't take it you'd be gimped
lucid stone
But it's kinda eeeeeh as far as fun, imo.
past obsidian
@lament zodiac It's cool, we don't evne know if it's final yet
violet nymph
Minion builds are like....they only do so much
Why does this node need to be anything other than what it is?
carmine fiber
i mean, no?
lament zodiac
I think if it gives ascendancies a nieche without forcing them to be the only ascendancy to do it then its good.
lucid stone
1% of damage redirected to zombies per zombie you own~
carmine fiber
it doesn't, but if you play almost any minions and play with not this node, you're playing with like 25% less DPS when minmaxed
past obsidian
For a minion build, one of the best ways to get more damage and life on your minion is via levels, efficient and not that many ways to do it
limpid wigeon
i mean incubus is the guy who the other day was defending ggg deleting the mine playstyle so
lucid stone
It'd be cool if it gave the necro strength, too.
past obsidian
@lucid stone I like that node
carmine fiber
gem level is like the single most relevant thing for minions
violet nymph
Which is why it makes sense for necro to have that
lucid stone
I think it's a good node, but I don't feel like it's got any flavor.
past obsidian
@carmine fiber Do you think they are going to do something about spectre limits?
steel folio
i dont care that they changed mines the way they did i might actually play them this league because of it
lucid stone
You'll get the flavor from the gems, though, I guess.
carmine fiber
well it doesn't if you want people to play anything but necro for minions
lament zodiac
I really like the new +1% physical dmg reduciton node... I no longer feel bad about taking Mont'guls because I lower my physical cap since its capped at 10
violet nymph
I mean, they can do it if they want
carmine fiber
i don't think that you should feel gimped for playing not 1/19 ascendancies
violet nymph
but necro is supposed to be the minion ascendancy that can do that one thing best
carmine fiber
just because 1/19 of them has an absurdly strong node
lucid stone
I might do necro dark pact.
violet nymph
all of the ascendancies do this. they're meant for archetyping
limpid wigeon
they dont but ok
lucid stone
+2 to gem levels for dark pact sounds tasty.
carmine fiber
well, the game doesn't really work like that in many other areas tbh
lament zodiac
I agree rainbow ... I also think we should get rid of Berzerkers rage accendancy... its not fair that Berzerker rages the best.
limpid wigeon
theres no point in discussing with someone who wants less build diversity
past obsidian
@lament zodiac I think bone barrier is a nicely designed node
I like it a lot
It gives a defensive flavour for minions
carmine fiber
you can make tanky builds on a whole lot of stuff, not just juggernaut
past obsidian
It's nothing special tho
lucid stone
What's bone armour do tho
violet nymph
You don't want build diversity, you want GOOD build diversity
past obsidian
I suspect bone armour is something like crab armour
lucid stone
What if there was a node that gave -gem levels, but provided some other benefit?
violet nymph
you dont' count subpar shit because it doesn't fit your narrative
past obsidian
@lucid stone Will never work
lucid stone
What benefit would be worth -1 global gems?
lament zodiac
Why are people not making Guardian/Jug/Pathfinder minions anymore just because of a +2 minion gem?
limpid wigeon
because +2 minion gem is very strong
past obsidian
@lament zodiac because +2 is a huge damage boost
carmine fiber
those are barely played as is
lucid stone
I think they're gonna nerf it to +1
violet nymph
nvm, you guys are free to be needlessly upset all you like. I was just curious why you gave so much of a shit about this.
carmine fiber
they're like delve-exclusive
lucid stone
Cause reddit's gonna complain
past obsidian
You are gimping yourself if you go guardian minions
lament zodiac
Yes, but damage is not the be all and end all
lucid stone
Remember harness the void?
carmine fiber
because for people who actually play the game a lot
lament zodiac
If I want to play with one finger and use my Jug HoAg build
Why would I care about +2 minion dmg?
past obsidian
@lament zodiac No it's like, one of the most efficient way to scale minion damage is via levels
past obsidian
Very little stuff increases minion damage
lament zodiac
But thats not the point is it?
past obsidian
Most of the stuff we have only get "increased damage"
lucid stone
Necro will have the strongest minions, but jugg hoag will have better defense
limpid wigeon
lol
lament zodiac
The point is you are seeing your damage numbers and getting hard ons without considering the whole picture.
past obsidian
It's like why would you choose guardian summoner over a necromancer summoner
lament zodiac
What if I want to have 10k ES
carmine fiber
i mean i play a jugg hoag, so i don't think you can really tell me that i don't 'consider the whole picture'
lucid stone
Please buff guardian summoner. :D
lament zodiac
Or... I could have +2 minions gems
lucid stone
Guardian gets +2 global aura gems next league? x.x
carmine fiber
i think it's more that you don'y realise how tiny that one specific build is in a broader picture
past obsidian
@lament zodiac Yeah so you take less minion damage nodes because of the +2
And get more ES nodes
past obsidian
Why would you gimp yourself
steel folio
the only real complaint about the level node is that it's boring they wanted to make it so minions on necro were powerful regardless of what type of minion you wanted to play and then you focus on how you want to scale your defenses and support playstle for your minions it's the equivelent of adding an extra support gem on your minion skills: IMO it's no more powerful than the 40% more damage node on berserker besides the fact that there's no downside
limpid wigeon
lol.
lament zodiac
But if you are taking less damage nodes you are making the +2 minion level nodes irrelevant
carmine fiber
you're not
past obsidian
No, +2 trumps everything
carmine fiber
because +2 levels will outdo like
lament zodiac
you might aswell just be a 10 endurance charge jug
lament zodiac
with your fancy spider herald
carmine fiber
lol
past obsidian
You need a lot of increased damage nodes to beat +2
@lament zodiac That's a different playstyle tho
carmine fiber
have you ever looked at how much dps you actually get on a minion node on hoag?
it's not much
past obsidian
@lament zodiac I'm speaking for people who were considering guardian or champion summoner
lament zodiac
Have you ever played HoAg and thought... gee... I need more damage.
limpid wigeon
yes?
lucid stone
I hope they don't remove the minion tag from dark pact.
carmine fiber
LOL
limpid wigeon
hoag damage is not that good
past obsidian
@lament zodiac I have played summoner builds that I wish had more damage
lucid stone
Would +2 gem levels be better than occultist's chaos stuff for dark pact?
lament zodiac
No you havent you have been playing your survival explorer jug walking around with 2k regen and reading the notes on the floor in a 3 damage mod red map
past obsidian
@lament zodiac Dude but that's not a summoner
limpid wigeon
i dont understand
past obsidian
I don't want to play a jugg
lament zodiac
occasionally alt tabbing to read some fan fiction xD
lucid stone
I don't like the node being one line.
limpid wigeon
would you be ok with this kind of node showing up on other ascecndancies
lucid stone
It feels empty.
limpid wigeon
+2 elemental gem levels
lament zodiac
I mean its clearly a step they are taking
lucid stone
But it might as well read 'minions have 24% more life and damage'
limpid wigeon
thats not an answer
proper widget
people typically don't mind power creep
limpid wigeon
do you like it or not
swift pagoda
tbh minions benefit the most from gem levels
past obsidian
Having +2 to elemental gems on one specific ascendancy will just shoehorn people into it
lucid stone
I don't like it. owo
steel folio
I think it's fine
past obsidian
It's the same thing
lucid stone
And I think GGG will nerf it to +1
carmine fiber
if you had +2 elemental gems
that would be the only ascendnacy ever played for ele hit
for e.g.
past obsidian
@carmine fiber I think evne for spells it will be one of the best nodes
steel folio
necro already has so much cool shit going on in the rework that it's fine
carmine fiber
you'd literally never play any other ascendancy for ele hit
proper widget
we're gonna have people running aruond with lvl 30 gems
swift pagoda
more
carmine fiber
yeah, just keeping the discussion limited to one thing at a time
because it's easier to make the point
carmine fiber
it's lazy in the way that berserker rework was not
proper widget
GG will for sure nerf it but they probably need to drop the concept entirely or limit it to the skill tree
limpid wigeon
it's lazy, it's too strong, and it sets a bad precedent
carmine fiber
rage mechanic, blitz etc.
lament zodiac
The point is though if this is a step they take it wont be all that good because all ascendancieswill end up with them
swift pagoda
you can have 2 + 2 + 3 + 4 +21 = lvl 32 minion gem setups now
carmine fiber
that was good changes
limpid wigeon
psymple do you not see the problem with that
if all ascendancies just turn into + gem level
lament zodiac
Does it matter if you see a problem with it or not?
carmine fiber
replace ascendancy interesting mechanics with
limpid wigeon
yes you absolute muppet
carmine fiber
"elementalist: +2 elemental nodes"
limpid wigeon
what the fuck kind of question is that
steel folio
when you see aspect of carnage do you go that's lazy or are you like lmao 40% more damage on one node?
carmine fiber
necro: "+2 minion gems"
limpid wigeon
does it matter if i see a game i enjoy a great deal becoming creatively bankrupt?
past obsidian
@lament zodiac Can you elaborate what you mean by thtat
lament zodiac
I mean you are raging on the internet about a leaked patch that may or may not even happen and you don't even know how it will affect people
carmine fiber
unless e-peening for poe.ninja dps numbers
lament zodiac
Feels premature to me sir.
carmine fiber
no one was raging
carmine fiber
they said: "+2 nodes on necro is stupid and bad for build diversity"
past obsidian
We are just expressing displeasure if this is real
I am hoping to Innocence that this is not real
carmine fiber
it's definitely bad for build diversity
lament zodiac
I mean you kind of are: if I was a +2 minion gem I would be buying life insurance for my family
limpid wigeon
ggg defence force out in numbers today
proper widget
i don't think aspect of carnage is lazy but i disagree with the idea that ascendency nodes need to be full of mechanics
past obsidian
@lament zodiac wtf no?
carmine fiber
wut
past obsidian
No one was threatening families or suicide
swift pagoda
does that node alone make necro better than elementalist for golems if it goes live ?
past obsidian
Or burning down ggg here
steel folio
how many pure spectre' skele \ zombie builds are out there that weren't necro
carmine fiber
yes that node would imo
past obsidian
I think +level to golem gets is like even bigger than spectres
lament zodiac
I think the +1 golem on the tree makes necro better than elementalist no?
lament zodiac
I wanna see if the Burning Legion support on Elementalist golems take no damage.
past obsidian
@lament zodiac It will be immune to elemental damage so definitely
lament zodiac
Otherwise Elementalist is deader this league than last :/
steel folio
golems will be immune to the degen
past obsidian
The elementalist node specifically says immune to elemental damage
lament zodiac
it probably still is unless the gem is insanely strong
past obsidian
SO burn away bois
steel folio
it will still do the damage otherwise GGG has finally killed elementaist
lament zodiac
Untill next league... Gem League when all ascendancies have +2 gem types
eager terrace
+gem levels on the skill tree or ascendancies definitely seems like a poor idea
past obsidian
@eager terrace Agreed, I hope to never see it
Maybe this is just an early leak
Who knows
steel folio
assuming that they're going to slap this onto every ascendency is dumb
eager terrace
yes I'll wait until the actual necro reveal
limpid wigeon
is it dumb?
eager terrace
even if they don't I think it's a bad idea
past obsidian
Necro leak is this weekend
steel folio
yeah
swift pagoda
I agree, that node seems way too OP even for the recent buffs
limpid wigeon
i think it reveals a potential trend
past obsidian
@swift pagoda It's not really just the OP part, it's just so lazy
limpid wigeon
they started adding a lot of more speed modifiers to a lot of ascendancies
past obsidian
I know it's OP, but it feels so lazy?
lament zodiac
I agree that its not fun/thematic
past obsidian
Here's an ascendancy node, its just +2 to all minion gems
eager terrace
I just think gem levels need to remain a gear mechanic
past obsidian
@eager terrace Yes
lament zodiac
but I would rather have a good ascendancy than a thematic one thats just bad
lament zodiac
SOme of the leaked ones look aweful
cedar pewter
A thematic one can be bad too though
swift pagoda
it's not that it's lazy, 40% more dps is just as lazy it just pigeonholes every minion build to be necro, it's that busted
past obsidian
GGG just needs to think harder
lament zodiac
The corpse mechanic ones
past obsidian
@lament zodiac I can't disagree there lol
But this is a leak
Might not be final
Maybe it might be something else
limpid wigeon
the corpse one is obviously intended for corpse detonation skills
not for minion builds
cedar pewter
Nothing wrong with that
hot quail
@limpid wigeon knows what's up
lament zodiac
The only thing I thought looked fun was Mistress of sacrifice with 75% and consuming courpse 8% es regen
eager terrace
yeah there is definitely a VD/DD lane there
lament zodiac
for CWDT spirit offering shinaniagnas
cedar pewter
Not all necro builds need to be centered around minions
past obsidian
Yeah but it still feels kinda weird lol
eager terrace
anyway I'll wait until the reveal to be officially annoyed or not
but I hope it does not go live
hot quail
Soulthirst Poets VD build using Necro and lots of ES regen / recovery
steel folio
again how many pure spectre / skelly/ zombie builds are out there that aren't already necro
lament zodiac
How would you feel about the +2 minion gem being made something like: +1% MORE damage per type of minion summoned
cedar pewter
increased?
swift pagoda
would have to be more
steel folio
inceased would be bad and more would be op
cedar pewter
1% More?
limpid wigeon
and its not a good thing to look at "well its bad now so why not make it worse"
past obsidian
@lament zodiac Rewards you for each minion invested? I like the idea
swift pagoda
a few % more would be interesting
steel folio
and that would be a bad node as well
eager terrace
you can do mostly whatever you want but
limpid wigeon
you should look at the fact that necro pidgeonholes a lot of minion builds currently and think thats a bad thing
and want to improve
not cement it
lament zodiac
Why?
eager terrace
gem levels are one of those things that shouldn't be outside gear
steel folio
because now you have atleast 4 gems that are just useless random minions your summoning to buff your main skill
carmine fiber
i think it would be stupid if jugg was the only way to make a viable defensive char
lament zodiac
Thats a crazy idea to suggest that you want a ascendancy to not be good at something
past obsidian
I think +more damage% (small%) is fine
carmine fiber
for similar reasons
carmine fiber
you can be tanky in a lot of different ways
steel folio
it's fine if it's the only way to get it that isn't gear
past obsidian
You get 7% more damage if you have 7 minions, it's not game breaking
carmine fiber
you can play a lot of things a lot oof different ways, and that's good imo
hot quail
Skellys + Feeding Frenzy is all you need to get started now
cedar pewter
Yeah
limpid wigeon
What? So you think chieftain should be good at cold damage builds because "its a crazy idea to suggest that you want a ascendancy to not be good at something"
cedar pewter
I like that
carmine fiber
homogeneity = bad
cedar pewter
People have been complaining about Saboteur forever
carmine fiber
classes can specialize in certain aspects of something
hot quail
Cheiftain - Cold to Fire AoF is pretty legit
past obsidian
@cedar pewter I feel like I'm the only one who felt sabo was ok
lament zodiac
I think you are arguing with me when we have the same oppinion @limpid wigeon
past obsidian
It's kinda plain but it works
cedar pewter
It's just you can't play miner w/o being sabo
carmine fiber
but things that hurt build diversity are generally bad
cedar pewter
you lose way too much qol
limpid wigeon
I don't think i do
lament zodiac
I think ascendancies should be good at something but not the only way to do something.
limpid wigeon
I want build diversity
So I want necro to be an OPTION for summoners, but not the definitive choice
carmine fiber
sure, and your argument on the basis of jugg hoag is potato-tier
steel folio
necro will always be the best pure summoner ascendancy and GGG wants it like this
lament zodiac
And currently it is???
swift pagoda
the idea is that you can play RF multiple ways, chief occ, jugg, trickster, but all minion builds will be necro if that node goes live
rose pasture
Any info about scion?
Do she get +2 to necro too?
eager terrace
she does not
past obsidian
@rose pasture leak, not final
carmine fiber
because that's like barely minions and barely played
past obsidian
Take it with some salt
rose pasture
Okie
lament zodiac
What you seem to have na issue with @limpid wigeon is not necros been GOOD at summoning but Guardians/other classes being bad.
eager terrace
cedar pewter
😄
eager terrace
that is the leaked scion necro node
lament zodiac
But how many people would get angry is they started putting Minion nodes in non Necro/Elementalist ascendancies
limpid wigeon
turn necro into more of an option rather than just generic increases to minions
wary stratus
unless I missed something GGG specifically designed ascendancies because players didn't like how the only real difference between classes was where you started on the tree
they don't want ascendancies to be generic
cedar pewter
Aren't there minion nodes on..3 ascendencies?
carmine fiber
not many if necro is still also quite strong
steel folio
and assuming every ascendancy is going to get this treatment is dumb
swift pagoda
Elementalist being a golem specialist is pretty thematic imo
lament zodiac
You can't turn necro into an option unless you make other options
lament zodiac
you cant just make NEcro bad at summoning because everyone else is worse
spice cipher
Can someone link the necro changes ?
limpid wigeon
Ok let me give you an example
carmine fiber
necro is not bad at summoning currently
limpid wigeon
Necro could have a lot of minion capacity but low individual minion damage
cedar pewter
it definitely won't be bad in the future either
limpid wigeon
that's a playstyle right
like a horde of zombies
but not necessarily better or worse
than one big zombie
thats how you can diversify
lament zodiac
Tell me another summoning ascendancy
swift pagoda
pathfinder has the HoAg specialized nodes and so on, Champ could have weapon minion nodes
limpid wigeon
You're literally
cedar pewter
elementalist and that templar thing psy
limpid wigeon
not listening to what im saying
lament zodiac
Both are bad 🙂
wary stratus
I've played pathfinder and occultist as summoners more than necromancer to be honest
with dancing duo and herald of agony builds
cedar pewter
That's a numbers thing, and I don't think either of them are bad lol
lament zodiac
How many ascendancys can you make Cyclone work with?
hot quail
my golementalist would like a word with you
lament zodiac
4? 5? 6?
limpid wigeon
Fucking tons
hot quail
all - cast while channelling is a thing
cedar pewter
You can make cyclone work with everyone
limpid wigeon
Probably literally any yeah
past obsidian
There was an elementalist cyclone last league on the ladder lmfao
lament zodiac
Tell me which 6 ascendancies are the best for minions
past obsidian
The absolute madlad
limpid wigeon
I can't? What is your point
eager terrace
the point I think you're missing is that a +2 "minion gem" node is too broad of a bonus
you are crushing any other potential minion lanes
cedar pewter
Wait, is your complaint that Summoner isn't as diverse as Cyclone?
lament zodiac
The point is you don't bring down the only one that can do it to the rest of the shit
you bring some of the ones you want to be summoners up
cedar pewter
Bake more power into base spells so summoner doesn't feel like shit 1-40
limpid wigeon
You're so stupid man.... there's other ways to make necro viable without making it the dominating choice
AND without making every other ascendancy have minion synergy
eager terrace
you can make necro the premiere summoner of a particular summon style
lament zodiac
Cank you literally are arguing with yourself
hot quail
I hear what he is saying it's not about necro - he wants to do minions on every ascendency / build
limpid wigeon
make necro do unique things with its minions that aren't just number buffs
cedar pewter
So do it?
eager terrace
instead of trying to grant them such broad giant bonuses like +2 to any kind of minion gem
cedar pewter
you can do that now
hot quail
technically you can but you just wont have as much fun / do enough damage
swift pagoda
we're arguing that the necro is so much above everything else that there isn't even an option to bring something up because it would still be worse unless it had +2 random gems
eager terrace
for the record I think saboteur sucks for this reason too
wary stratus
why are you so obsessed with +2 minion gems to begin with
cedar pewter
I agree with that lol
wary stratus
acting like +2 minion gems makes your minions literal gods or something
eager terrace
it is way too wack to try and make miners or trappers that aren't sabo
lament zodiac
Sure but if Berzerker randomly got "Your minions benefit 50% from your rage/blitz stacks"
swift pagoda
that node is way too strong
lament zodiac
no one else would make anything but a Berzerker summoner
cedar pewter
I wouldn't play a zerker summoner lol
eager terrace
and I'd like to not see build concepts get reduced to "this ascendancy and maybe scion sometimes"
wary stratus
I play summoners more than any other build archetype and 3.8 necromancer doesn't look oppressively powerful to me
eager terrace
any more than possible
past obsidian
Champion summoner was a thing
swift pagoda
if you think that +2 gem levels doesn't make your minions gods, you haven't played summoner recently
past obsidian
When accuracy was an isssue on minions
wary stratus
I've literally played it every league since 3.0
hot quail
I think you've gotta understand that the ascendencies are all about play style.. You don't pick zerker to play minions you pick zerker to go fast, hit hard
steel folio
ok so in legion softcore necromancer's make up 90% of the spectre / skelly / zombie playerbase. the people that are doing something different than that are doing something deliberatley off met a and niche and this node wont change that
lament zodiac
@wary stratus I agree... It looks playable though... and strong enough to do content without having to pull teeth.
cedar pewter
but now you're taking your summons from 31 to 33
I don't think it's as big of a jump as people think
past obsidian
@swift pagoda level 21 corrupted spectre empower was literally 2 shotting rare bosses for me in red maps lmao
limpid wigeon
It's a big jump and more importantly to me it's a purely numerical upgrade with no identity or theme
it's just "minion strong."
eager terrace
it's not just big, it's broad
lucid stone
It doesn't really have anything that allows a unique interaction.
past obsidian
I cannot imagine my level 25 existing spectres becoming level 27
lucid stone
At least not immediately apparent.
cedar pewter
almost like -20% enemy resistance to chaos and cold
past obsidian
I think I will literally rip apart space and time
swift pagoda
@past obsidian yep, +3 minion 6 link helms are insane for that reason
lucid stone
Is there anything that you could do with +2 gem levels to minions you couldn't before?
steel folio
pathfinder and gladiator will still probably be just as popular for HoAG becase they bring great scaling and utility
lucid stone
I mean something build enabling.
limpid wigeon
at best you could make dark pact and bodyswap higher level?
eager terrace
put it this way
past obsidian
1 shotting bosses is pretty build enabling
eager terrace
why should necro get +2 to gem levels for skills like herald of agony or herald of purity
wary stratus
+minion gem levels doesn't even do anything for three of my favourite summoner builds so I think suggesting that necromancer makes every other summoner ascendancy obsolete because of +2 is insane
limpid wigeon
actually not even body swap
past obsidian
But yeah that's why +2 minion gems is not a very interesting build enabler
lucid stone
Only dark pact
wary stratus
dancing duo, soulwrest, arakaali's fang
hot quail
I'm going necro and not even planning to take +2 minion gems
lucid stone
Well, it'll give you 2% more damage on minion damage support
past obsidian
THat's not even fair
wary stratus
a whole 2% more damage, holy moly
steel folio
nobody's going to play dom blow and golems will be played on elementalist or necro depending on how strong the new fire aura support is for golems is see this having no considerable impact on the minion meta and the only real complaint is "generic strong node bad"
swift pagoda
+2 is big for soulwrest
limpid wigeon
lmao lothrik
past obsidian
Dancing duo is unique
limpid wigeon
please leave
past obsidian
so is the spider
How is that even a comparison
I would even argue duo is not really a minion build
hot quail
+2 gives soulwrest no extra value?
unreal star
how's it not a minion build
lucid stone
What really gets me is a skill being granted by an ascendancy.
lament zodiac
@steel folio Exactly
hot quail
skills come from gear too though
limpid wigeon
idk that doesnt really bother me
swift pagoda
you run animate guardian and spectres with soulwrest anyway
restive wren
A lot of minion gems are going to scale better with levels so +2 to minion gems could be worth a lot more than it appears right now
cedar pewter
Yeah that's pretty exciting to me lol
lucid stone
I wonder if that's gonna be a thing in the future.
cedar pewter
I'll be honest - I like that necro doesn't really have anything build enabling
limpid wigeon
for example
lucid stone
I kinda don't like if that's gonna be the only way to get bone armour.
wary stratus
we don't even know that bone armor is going to be exclusive to necromancer
rage isn't exclusive to berserker
lucid stone
But then I couldn't use berserk on champ
steel folio
@eager terrace because nobody wants to play a HoAG necro when they're so far away from poison and accuracy nodes and have to consume corpses constantly to keep up their damage and defenses while keeping up poison stacks that RAPIDLY deplete and HoP is never a clear skill
limpid wigeon
i would be surprised if they gave an ascendancy a normally existing gem, that would be very silly
lament zodiac
I feel like at this point GGG has just decided that summoning gems are basically a Necromancer thing and they aren't going to bother making other ascendancies have any toys for them.
hot quail
It's all about investment - with beserker you can invest into rage more than the other classes - doesn't stop you from slotting rage gem though.
lucid stone
Yeah
limpid wigeon
i mean just because they've decided that doesnt mean i cant critique that decision
lament zodiac
You watch 3.9 only necromancers will be able to even equip minion gems
wary stratus
necromancers are typically pretty starved for gem sockets, I doubt anyone would complain about getting a gem for free
eager terrace
sounds like fine reasons to not give them bonuses that apply to those skills
lucid stone
We become diablo in 4.0
hot quail
I don't think it will be like that Psy
cedar pewter
That'd be a change that doesn't fit the game at all lol
eager terrace
and instead give bonuses that actually focus the ascendancy in a lane
lament zodiac
@hot quail It was hyperbole but check the leader board and see how many zombie gems get used outside necromancer
they might aswell make it a rule
cedar pewter
I mean...Check the leader boards now and see that
lucid stone
I don't like things that mean you have to play a specific ascendancy if you want to make a certain build
limpid wigeon
i think me and psymple agree on the problem but dont agree on the solution
restive wren
@lament zodiac if anything 3.8 will make non-necro zombie/skele/spectre builds more viable now that you don't need the minion-specific nodes
lament zodiac
The solution is to either accept Necormancer is the be all and end all of minions and be happy for them
hot quail
Leader board for legion?
lament zodiac
or to want minion specific changes applied to other classes also to widen the playing field
wary stratus
there's nothing wrong with build-enabling ascendancy nodes as long as alternatives exist in the form of unique items
hot quail
I'd totally be up for a zombie champion honestly
cedar pewter
It's funny, though, This is a massive buff to Minion Guardian
steel folio
@limpid wigeon NOBODY IS PLAYING THESE SKILLS ON OTHER CLASSES ALREADY @lament zodiac is right GGG made a decision based on YEARS of player data and if it expands the meta for necro that's probably a good thing
cedar pewter
and you're heralding it like it's teh death of all non-necro summoners
limpid wigeon
they don't play them on other classes because they arent good on other classes
not because they dont want to
i dont understand your point
proven wadi
thing is you shouldn't need to "enable" the build of "zombie"
lucid stone
Wait how is a necro-only node a buff to guardian
cedar pewter
Not that
lament zodiac
The ai gems
hot quail
gem improvements and ai gems for other classes
lucid stone
Gotcha.
cedar pewter
are both huge buffs to guardian
limpid wigeon
i dont like guardian very much myself
lament zodiac
the +1 golem node is big for guardian also
lucid stone
I like it when the bonuses are less specific in regards to the bone armour thing
steel folio
and if they're bad on other classes they shouldn't invest the effort to make it good on other classes when they literally have a class that's only identity is summoning
limpid wigeon
the crusade nodes for guardian are too forceful of an archetype
lucid stone
But +2 minion gems is about as broad as you can get
cedar pewter
It's massive for golemancer lol
limpid wigeon
bleh it doesnt have to be that way
lament zodiac
yeah it is but it allows guardian to have stone + new golem
cedar pewter
+100% minion accuracy is so good for minions
limpid wigeon
necromancer doesnt mean "summoner" it means "death mage"
lucid stone
What would you change guardian sentinel nodes to?
cedar pewter
"Minions have 50% increased area of effect
limpid wigeon
the easiest way to make a flexible archetype is to make it unique but not overwhelmingly powerful
lucid stone
Or to make it work with a lot of things
past obsidian
@limpid wigeon I'm low key glad ggg didn't do something asinine like make minion targetign only on necro
limpid wigeon
so like, the easiest way to do that it to alter the number of minions
past obsidian
lol
limpid wigeon
and power of minions
lucid stone
And not specific to one skill
steel folio
@limpid wigeon necromance has been a lord of the dead lich commanding an army of the dead might as well be written in stone and cemented into the foundation of every rpg of all time because it's been around for atleast 40+ years already
lament zodiac
@past obsidian can you imagine how insanely strong that would be as an ascendancy?
past obsidian
Yep I'm glad they didn't do it
hot quail
So I forgot - what are we arguing the point over again? Summons Pigeoned or Necro too strong?
haughty estuary
who are the two bodies to the left of the masters
lament zodiac
the Golems are aggressive primordial gem basically made golems good
lucid stone
I wonder if death mark makes summons' totems target there
Like sr totems from those a6 guys
cedar pewter
In hindsight, imo ascendencies were a mistake.
proven wadi
eh
steel folio
@hot quail people don't like the genericly powerful minion node on necromancer and are arguing points that are countered by literal years of data and are also countered by build design already in the game
lucid stone
I never played before ascendancies.
limpid wigeon
ascendancies weren't a mistake
cedar pewter
there was something magical about one of hte best Freezing pulse characters being a Marauder
lucid stone
But if we had a beefier passive tree to make up for no ascendancies, that would be really cool.
proven wadi
without ascendencies classes don't mean much at all
hot quail
Cool - I personally see no issues with it, we've always tended to go for the "best ascendencies" for the right playstyle anyway
restive wren
@lament zodiac funny you say that because a lot of golem builds just went anima stone + as many harmonies as possible. Aggressive wasn't actually needed.