1┃mirage-league

[clear gust]

was*

[odd steeple]

Yeah and now Molten Shell means that will be good at more than just mitigating medium-sized physical hits

[clear gust]

but it was actually half of the second or so

i want to see that multiplier

20% of 40k is 8k, then the multiplier for boom

[odd steeple]

I mean even if it's not much offensively, an 8k shield is huge

[clear gust]

8k as in 75% decrease, so 2,(66)k will still go through

during the effect

as i have no evasion, block or dodge

so its overwhelmingly huge

but i fear it wont last long

[wintry lantern]

Wow, Hall of Grandmasters is only tier 6

[solid nova]

Man I want to play frost blades and melee in general but all I can think is bomber gear gon be cheap

Hogm has a monster level modifier, tier doesn't matter

[odd steeple]

It'll work just fine, assuming HoI shatters work

[solid nova]

Which they've confirmed will work

[marsh wagon]

Hmm... Wonder when we'd get the new occy ascendancy

Logically in the patch notes...

[solid nova]

Yeah, likely just ww gets a rename and stays the same mechanically

Otherwise they would have told us by now

[odd steeple]

Why would an autobomber not be as good as a meta build for legion?

From what I understand enemies will be super dense in legion encounters, sounds amazing for an autobomber

[violet nymph]

Purifying flame trapper/miner sounds so juicy for the legion encounter

[odd steeple]

I don't think traps/mines will be great for legion. Purifying Flame especially

Because you will only hit things that the mine actually targets

[violet nymph]

Why not? It has massive aoe

[odd steeple]

Monsters won't move so the won't move into the AOE of the skill

[solid nova]

Depending on density, arc trapper might be grossly incandescent again

[odd steeple]

Heck, I don't think Cyclone will be all that great for Legion encounters

Arc might be insanely good yeah

[violet nymph]

If you throw out a bunch before you hit the Monolith youll have a huge aor go off and when they come undone to fight you throw another set down to kill them all

[gentle ermine]

Hah it worked, sadly im at work. so don't have time to fill in the names of the Maps

Anyone willing to help? and re-post?

[odd steeple]

The problem with low-range big-aoe skills in general is that they've always relied on monster AI to help them out

[lavish coral]

lines are too straight

[odd steeple]

Like you stand in one place and activate cyclone and every monster that's in range to be activated will die soon enough because they'll target you and run towards you

[gentle ermine]

Better?

[lavish coral]

ha, it was a joke

[odd steeple]

But if all the monsters are actually frozen in place, then you need to actually move to kill them

[gentle ermine]

Flicker Strike

[tough roost]

Imagine having to move to kill things

[violet nymph]

Like i said, you run around before hitting the Monolith so you can tag a bunch as soon as you activate it.

[odd steeple]

Flicker Strike should be really good, bow skills should be really good, Arc should be really good -- things with long-range targeting and chaining should be really good

[gentle ermine]

Thats why i run Herald of agony HerbalRanger thingy.

[odd steeple]

Cyclone and Reave and stuff will be... OK but you need to actually move to everything you want to kill

You know how in Delve, stuff like Tornado Shot is kind of not great because monsters are pouring in from every direction? and you don't need to move, you can just hold down Molten Strike+Ancestral Call and everything dies eventually

This is like the exact opposite

Nothing moves at all, you can't stand still, you need to keep moving and covering as much area as you can

[gentle ermine]

Im bored of this, se ya laters o/

[odd steeple]

Lel

[solid nova]

Man, off topic but fuck people who don't tip delivery drivers

[marsh wagon]

Will the crystal belts b in the same segment?

Only the maps shuffle right not the crystal belts?

[odd steeple]

Yeah, historically the octants of the atlas that drop various base types stay the same, only the maps changed

[marsh wagon]

My easiest delve times is parking 3x 5s cold vortex at a swarm spawn n chilling

[solid nova]

You guys think it'd be possible to offset the cost of using double shimmerons with just energy leech, maybe a soul tether for shenanigans?

[languid path]

it has never been impossible given a reasonable build, it just doesn't feel good to play, even after the recent change it's still almost 500-700 degen/s

and as soon as your es/life leeched back to full it's gonna go back real quick if you don't find the next pack

[solid nova]

That's why I was thinking soul tether, to stay at full after hitting max

[languid path]

soul tether is pseudo overleech yeah, it's still something you aren't gonna feel until playing

leech will definitely be able to out regen shimmeron

[odd steeple]

Are you gonna be a hybrid?

Because Soul Tether leech is based on maximum HP

[solid nova]

Most likely yeah

Thinking og arc traps

[languid path]

if you use tinkerskin+pyromaniac it should be fine

[odd steeple]

You can definitely try a leech tank. You can get something like 4k+ leech/s on Trickster or on Zerker

[languid path]

and how are you leeching any meaningful amount on a trap build?

[solid nova]

Energy leech should be enough when the traps hit a billion enemies in legion packs

[odd steeple]

You can't leech from trap hits though

The trap is the thing doing the damage so it's the thing that (tries to) leech

[solid nova]

Crap you're right

[odd steeple]

So, on a completely unrelated note I made some MSPaint diagrams to show why I think melee will feel especially clunky in Legion encounters

https://i.imgur.com/4AKaXqb.png

https://i.imgur.com/e77YhKX.png

https://i.imgur.com/KaX2gdX.png

[minor jungle]

Just add more aoe

[solid nova]

Rip the double shimmeron dream

[odd steeple]

Yeah, I think it will only feel good if your cyclone literally covers the full width of the map. So like Toxic Sewers works, Racecourse doesn't

[minor jungle]

I mean

[solid nova]

Well, I've done single shim and the degen wasn't completely unreasonable

[minor jungle]

You can dash mid cyclone and continue for some quick movement at times

[languid path]

double shimmeron on trap build is fine

you don't need leech to begin with

pyromaniac + tinkerskin is plenty

[odd steeple]

Sure, you can do that in a straight line too though, the "move to every pack you want to kill" is the thing that's gonna feel bad

[languid path]

well, by fine I mean you won't be dying to the degen

but whether or not it will be comfortable is up to you

[odd steeple]

Pyromaniac is like up to 20%/s which is really a lot

[languid path]

just gotta make sure to stack trigger radius

[solid nova]

Yeah, I usually stack 2 good hair triggers plus the trigger radius nodes

Ain't no kill like overkill

Maybe one of the new jewels will let me get some max lightning res on the tree

[quiet geyser]

The zana mods make me sad

[kindred dagger]

Like EH ? zana mod no breach, no nemesis and perandus cost 5c ?????????????
I hope they did a lot of improovement on all of this for those change because that feels weird

[odd steeple]

I understand no breach. Seems a bit too similar to Legion so having it reliably on every map would be a bit weird

[kindred dagger]

Good point, to keep legion more unique style at least visualy, but the problem of doing this is that everything from breaches items will get prices skyrocket

They need to change things like making more monster and drop more breach shard when you naturaly will encounter breaches so

[odd steeple]

For someone else who thinks like I do about Legion, watch Tarke's video on ED/Contagion as a league starter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tea-bDZ6yd8

The first 1:30 of that video are basically showing why melee in legion will be slow at tagging frozen mobs

[cloud siren]

If anyone needs atlas:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/bwitqr/complete_legion_atlas_tiered_labeled_colored/

[cerulean halo]

man this new league seems fantastic, whats the general consensus?

[odd steeple]

On the league mechanics or on the melee/ascendancy reworks?

[cerulean halo]

both

this new patch

[odd steeple]

AFAICT everyone likes the new legion league mechanics, with minor rumblings that maybe the timer is gonna be annoying to wait for

[silver kettle]

core systems changes are great. melee rework looking promising but need final numbers to be sure. league seem simple and fun

[odd steeple]

And they like the Slayer and Berserker reworks, Chieftain is OK but not too exciting? And Gladiator and Champion are boring but maybe they didn't need much to be good

[cerulean halo]

I was playing a heiro during synth, is that not getting any changes?

[silver kettle]

shouldn't be. top side of the tree is basically being ignored this patch

like bottom side was last patch

[odd steeple]

Pretty much no changes. Armor/Molten Shell, and Immortal Call are both changing

and there's a new low level move skill for casters

So you might be affected by that stuff, but the changes aren't really aimed at hieros

[cerulean halo]

Cool thanks

[vocal yacht]

man i did forget about ess drain contagion

but like, its the melee league 😛

[odd steeple]

But it's also "The monsters are densely and evenly spaced over a large area and aren't moving are you ready to zigzag like a lawnmower in order to play melee?" league

[vocal yacht]

flicker strike 😛

or that other skill thaat i forgot the name

which does aoe

like flicker

but slower

[odd steeple]

Consecrated Path?

[vocal yacht]

yep

that

[odd steeple]

There's a bunch of skills that are kinda like that, Bladestorm and Cyclone and Consecrated Path where you can do reasonable damage while moving in a pretty large area on all sides of you

[vocal yacht]

but nothing will beat essdraaain contagion

[odd steeple]

And I'm sure they're all fiiiiine but compared to ED/Contagion, or Arc, or Tornado Shot?

[vocal yacht]

ed will still be the fastest

its just man too op

for the monolith i mmean

[odd steeple]

Yeah. Tarke's video title is pure clickbait nonsense but I think he's probably right, unless they do something like space the monsters out way more clumped than all the preview videos

[vocal yacht]

but i think it looks good cause they aare clumped

the density makes it looks so satisfying

[odd steeple]

By clumped I mean packs with more space between them

[lament dagger]

Have to actually play with the league mechanic to get a feel

[odd steeple]

Yeah, also see what it feels like with and without investing in monster pack size on maps

[vocal yacht]

that

[lament dagger]

Herald of Ice not impacting frozen monsters is gonna be a big bummer for many builds

Same for Impulse and Bleed explosions

It's kinda funny, we have been so used to these over powered mechanics

However, Infernal Blow does work based on Chris in the podcast

[odd steeple]

Someone said they had confirmed Herald of Ice would proc

Dunno if it's true

[lament dagger]

Don't you need monsters to shatter for that?

[odd steeple]

Yes, but they're doing certain on-death effects

Apparently shattering is one of them

[lament dagger]

Then they should enable impulses and Bleed explosions too

For consistency

[vocal yacht]

cause they do shatter

😄

[odd steeple]

This is all second-hand, but it would make sense that they do, just to not dumpster 1/2 of all PoE builds

[lament dagger]

Gladiator gonna feel even more bad if bleed explosions dont work on it

But if infernal blow works then so should bleed explosion

[odd steeple]

Jonathan said they're looking at all on-death effects one by one, so chances that they miss one are... high 😛

But I'm sure if people complain they'll hotfix stuff like that if it's build-breaking

[lament dagger]

Yea but fixing infernal blow and not bleed explosions seems weird

Since IB is more niche than bleed explosions

Also what about HH buffs?

[silver kettle]

I haven't seen any indication from GGG that herald of ice will work

[odd steeple]

Yeah, or like Dominating Blow sentinel affixes

[silver kettle]

they've just stated that anything that requires a corpse is not going to work

had a long discussion with someone in here yesterday who wasn't convinced that that means no HoI, but GGG certainly haven't mentioned anything specifically about HoI either way

and normal corpse explosions definitely won't work

[odd steeple]

[8:04 PM] Clueless: It'll work just fine, assuming HoI shatters work
[8:04 PM] Foster: Which they've confirmed will work

@solid nova Did you have a source for that when you said it?

[native sonnet]

Wonder if Vaal ice nova would work =/

At the very least Vaal arc will work if they are near/dense enough I guess

[lavish coral]

they look very dense

[lament dagger]

I am guessing we get Vaal and flask charges from them as well

[solid nova]

I mean, heralds are THE iconic on kill effects

for them to say they'll make sure on kill effects work, then not include heralds, would be crazy

[languid path]

HoI is not on kill

it's on shatter

[solid nova]

are you suggesting you can shatter without killing?

every herald is on kill under their aligned debuff

[languid path]

no I'm saying it doesn't matter if you kill if there is no corpse to shatter

one come before the other

[odd steeple]

No, just that you might need to actually destroy a corpse to "shatter"

[languid path]

kill comes first, shatter comes later

[marsh wagon]

The Occultist now only has a single Energy Shield based notable, with a condensed and limited version of the previous Energy Shield notables. The ability for energy shield to be uninterruptible if recovery has started recently has moved to a new Keystone found near the Witch, making the mechanic available to a broader selection of characters, though with a new downside.

What does this mean in simple terms

Occy currently has two es nodes

With wicked ward gone it seems only the kill give 1% remains...

[odd steeple]

I wonder if the flat is still there

[marsh wagon]

So they didn't actually say what is replacing wicked ward kn occy tree?

[odd steeple]

150? 100?

Maybe nothing, maybe a new damage/utility node?

[marsh wagon]

Single notable

Means the flats are likely gone...

[odd steeple]

Well it could still have one flat

[marsh wagon]

Well they could park it under the %es per kill

Need notes sadly

Elementalist looks stronker every day in comparison

[odd steeple]

Still no numbers on the amount of damage Fortify Support provides

just "less"

it currently gets 44% increased

[marsh wagon]

Looks like real es drops on occy ascendancy in her flats...

[odd steeple]

so anything less than that

[marsh wagon]

The new node could b lacklustre

[odd steeple]

Oooooh, a pure phys Aura skill?

[violet nymph]

about time

this entire update is everything we could've wanted

i'm so happy

[north dragon]

F hh

[marsh wagon]

Need info on new occy

Hope its still impressive looking

Not some useless node

[idle hull]

Occy can die

[marsh wagon]

How mean to occy neesan

[idle hull]

Spell casters can die

[odd steeple]

A random thought: now the quality of an attack is affected by how fast its animation ends

Since you can stutter step farther if it ends sooner

[marsh wagon]

Its like they just stripped her of her best dress and gave everyone a copy...

Hope she maintains dignity in this league

[odd steeple]

So maybe, if that varies a lot by attack, it will be a big silent determiner on how good certain skills feel

[idle hull]

I hope she becomes the shameless witch she was always destined to be

[marsh wagon]

All witches are cute

[humble kelp]

Melee is king

[odd steeple]

Ooooooooooh!

Warlord's Mark no longer leeches off spells

That's a massive change

[idle hull]

Thank god

Just the way Chris Wilson our savior intended

[odd steeple]

I wonder if the boot enchant still works?

[smoky fiber]

bleed and poison aren't actually getting changed in 3.7? lul..

[idle hull]

I didnt figure they were, if they were we'd of heard about it way before now

[smoky fiber]

they've been saying that they're going to change them

or that changes have already been made

[idle hull]

At least they know they're weak and they have plans to fix em

Now they havent?

[smoky fiber]

but the manifesto says they're holding off in 3.7 until they figure out exactly how they want to do it

[odd steeple]

LL aurabots got dumpstered

[smoky fiber]

I don't think I like the jewel change either tbh

[odd steeple]

And Unnatural Instinct got gutted as well, that's a good thing cause I could never afford it 😂

[idle hull]

I was expecting eternity shroud or chaos conversion nerfs tbh

[smoky fiber]

eternity shroud was made more rare

[idle hull]

But all they did was make eternity shroud rarer

Which isnt a nerf

It is just more of an elite club now

Now instead of 5ex, it will be 20ex

[lament dagger]

They said they wanted more chase uniques in the game

More powerful uniques

[odd steeple]

At one point I had both Eternity Shroud and Bottled Faith in Synthesis, then I sold them all to craft a +2 implicits bow

Now Bottled Faith is like 20ex, and Eternity Shroud will be like 20ex as well

(Actually in standard prices who knows what Bottled Faith will be)

[lament dagger]

Damn Scion for dumpstered

[odd steeple]

Man ES got dumpstered into the fuckin' dirt

No more Dense suffix

[lament dagger]

Blood magic nerfs for support scion

Plus unnatural instinct

[odd steeple]

And less % on the tree

[lament dagger]

And abyss jewel nerfs

Luckily scion and raider changes coming in 3.8

Elementalist Assassin Raider Scion have to be bottom 5 classes now

Meanwhile Multistrike Berserker seems stupid broken

With the double damage

[marsh wagon]

I believe in team witch

[odd steeple]

Synthesis ES items are now legacy in a bajillion ways

Up to three ES implicits and an ES suffix

[ivory nimbus]

yeah ES seems to have got hit too hard

[solid nova]

they can't half nerf, we've known this for a long time

so who thinks they removed phase acro?

[midnight phoenix]

Not me

[twin rampart]

phase acro has to not be nerfed

[limpid wigeon]

hi guys im a refugee

[twin rampart]

there's no way to play bow without acro/phase acro

unless u go iron reflexes

which is not what everyone wants to do so

[odd steeple]

I'm curious how much accuracy characters actually get these days?

[north dragon]

Over 9000

[odd steeple]

I've never bothered to actually check raw numbers

[midnight phoenix]

Yer im out of #1┃general theres too many 40iq takes in there

[north dragon]

[limpid wigeon]

im scared of attack speed changes guys someone comfort me and tell me it wont be that bad

[midnight phoenix]

Uh like 3000 or so

I dont think multistrike changes are that bad cank

[north dragon]

It's great for my build

[midnight phoenix]

Like 3000 gets u to 91ish acc i think

[fallen pewter]

I think the attack speed change to Multistrike won't be too bad. Considering all the new sources of attack speed on ascendancies and all that jazz.

[midnight phoenix]

I dont remember precisely

[fallen pewter]

And in the end... double damage on that third hit is sexy.

[odd steeple]

Also multistrike + animation cancelling is possibly super pog

[north dragon]

Zerker is made for muktistroke

[midnight phoenix]

Im sure it'll be fine

[north dragon]

[midnight phoenix]

Just play flicker and stfu

[solid nova]

multistroke, you can't convince me otherwise

[midnight phoenix]

Never canceling that

[limpid wigeon]

i mean this sentence:

Most melee skills now have more or less attack speed, shown on the gem as a percentage of base attack speed. This is to both better match their animations and creating a noticeable difference between fast aggressive attacks and slower, much deadlier slams.

this scares me

[north dragon]

Dammit I hate typing using my phone

[limpid wigeon]

some will have less attac kspeed?

what ones

[midnight phoenix]

Oh that doesnt worry me at all

It just means ice crash will have less aspd

Ie

[odd steeple]

It will be like spells, where they balance the damage effectiveness and the base cast time

[midnight phoenix]

Same as now

[limpid wigeon]

but ice crash sucks

for that exact reason

[midnight phoenix]

The way to fix it isnt to make it faster tho

Then its just like

Ice groundslam

Or somethig

[limpid wigeon]

sure

[odd steeple]

Except instead of base cast time, it's attack time multiplier

[limpid wigeon]

but there was no comment on making travel skills have a base attack sped

[turbid drift]

Calm down fellows exiles

[marsh wagon]

Long as we can hit 10k+ without too mucj trouble we should b fine...

[limpid wigeon]

which is what you'd need to make slow attacks good

[turbid drift]

We will all now play cyclone

[marsh wagon]

Es wise

[odd steeple]

They already do, Canksilio

[fallen pewter]

Those are mostly visual aids, not actual speed differences. If I caught Jonathan's meaning. Sure it's technically slower still, but their damage will compensate.

[limpid wigeon]

its low though

i mean like

[midnight phoenix]

I dont understand the correlation

[limpid wigeon]

an actually good feeling movement option for slow attackers

[north dragon]

Animation cancel after dmg

Makes it better

[fallen pewter]

Movement speed is the good feeling option

[midnight phoenix]

So ur asking travel skills to behave like they alrdy do?

Leap slam literally alrdy does this for the most part

I feel like im missing something

[odd steeple]

If you attack slow, you should use a movement speed-based way of getting around

[limpid wigeon]

correct me if im wrong but they still scale with attack speed do they not

[turbid quartz]

ofc

[odd steeple]

I think he wants a thing that scales them independent of attack speed

[north dragon]

Leapleapy sammy sammy zerker at 20aps

[limpid wigeon]

yeah exactly

[north dragon]

Slammy*

[languid path]

weapon swap flame dash

[turbid quartz]

sigh, all i'm gonna see is spin 2 win fuckers

[fallen pewter]

Phase Run and movement speed between packs. Is the answer.

[turbid quartz]

and flicker

[odd steeple]

Leap slam and whirling blades have a travel time that means you can use them with slow weapons, but low attack speed always makes them feel bad

[fallen pewter]

Phase Run buffs your big hit anyways

[north dragon]

Dammit I'm done, I'm going to my coms discord

[turbid quartz]

🤢

[languid path]

or that new skill that let you travel back in time

or so I think

[limpid wigeon]

its just called dash

[odd steeple]

I don't really see how this affects your thing about Ice Crash though, Cank

[limpid wigeon]

well because it looks like they're making slow big hits an archetype

but im worried there isnt sufficient suppoort for that

to feel good

[odd steeple]

like you can take a slow attack like Ice Crash and stack a bunch of attack speed and then you have a fast Leap Slam and it scales Ice Crash just fine

[north dragon]

Inb4 eq meta

[fallen pewter]

Maybe they're buffing Faster Attacks Support at the same time ;)

[languid path]

yeah, so they just put a big ass attack speed multiplier on some travel skills

boom

[midnight phoenix]

U dont have to put the slow attack support on ur move skill tho

[turbid quartz]

I'm tempted to play cast on crit fireball whirlwind god sun to blind people in revenge to people going spin 2 win.

and blinding everyone in a group

[languid path]

you got your travel skills for slow attack builds

[fallen pewter]

Cuz FA is fucking garbage trash tier support.

[north dragon]

[turbid quartz]

burn their eyes out

https://youtu.be/Zl9eKbJaPgc

[odd steeple]

I mean you could, for example, put "100% increased attack speed" on the attack movement skills, and reduce their base APS by a factor of 2

and boom, investing in attack speed is less important

(Well, Zerker and Gladiator have more multipliers and those would still be good)

[limpid wigeon]

im just concerned

i wanted ice crash buffed but i feel like they're going to hard miss the mark by making it even slower

[north dragon]

Zerker being a zerker now

[fallen pewter]

The only thing I'm sad about with Multistrike change is it's slowing down my Flicker a lot.

[odd steeple]

Why does it matter if it's slow though?

[midnight phoenix]

As long as it does decent dmg i dont care if its slow

Not every skill needs to be flicker

[limpid wigeon]

i mean slow is always gonna feel worse for pack clearing unless it's gigantic

[odd steeple]

What does "Ice crash is slow" have to do with your leap slam?

[limpid wigeon]

and current ice crash is not gigantic

[fallen pewter]

Cuz if his attack is slow, his travel skill will be slow

Is what he's getting at

[odd steeple]

That's not true though

[midnight phoenix]

Eh what

[limpid wigeon]

Im assuming, and this is a guess

[fallen pewter]

If you're building around big dick slow hits, your travel skill will be slower. The change to travel skills a few patches ago helped somewhat, but didn't fix the problem, just evened the playing field a bit.

[limpid wigeon]

that the slow attack support gem will be like unleash

[odd steeple]

Now, it's possible that they release a support gem that makes investing in attack speed not important

Right

[limpid wigeon]

where you build up stacks wihile not attacking

[odd steeple]

Like a way to turn every skill into Earthquake

[limpid wigeon]

and then blow them all on a big hit

[odd steeple]

And then you don't want attack speed on slow skills

[limpid wigeon]

but that won't be good for travel skills

[turbid quartz]

WYM NOT EVERY SKILL NEEDS TO BE FLICKER?

[odd steeple]

But you do for travel skills and it's a pickle

[limpid wigeon]

since you're incentivised to build literally no attack speed there

[midnight phoenix]

Well then u have qs of adrenaline

[turbid quartz]

OFC EVERY SKILL NEEDS TO BE FLICKER OR CYCLONE

[odd steeple]

But the gem doesn't exist yet so don't worry yet?

[midnight phoenix]

Thats what i do when my travel skill sucks

[turbid quartz]

[midnight phoenix]

Like idk if u ever played wander

But that has no travel skill at all

[limpid wigeon]

i mean i guess but it feels shitty carrying around a qs flask

[midnight phoenix]

Still somehow works alright

[odd steeple]

@midnight phoenix the 40iq is coming to this channel too 😂

[fallen pewter]

I've been using Alchemist of Adrenaline all league on spell builds.

Still feels plenty fast

Just stop using Kaom's Roots :P

[turbid quartz]

if a skill isn't flicker or cyclone, could it even be considered a skill at all?

[twin rampart]

the days when

[limpid wigeon]

ice crash is also way too hard to convert to cold

[twin rampart]

faster attacks was god tier

[limpid wigeon]

im hoping they're gonna address that

[twin rampart]

pretty sure this is gonna be the first league i just go all out sc

[violet nymph]

I can't wait for a repeat of tonight's shitshow tomorrow when patch notes drop

[fallen pewter]

I assume Ice Crash is going to be sexy after buffs

[twin rampart]

ice crash was already sort of good

[limpid wigeon]

no

[fallen pewter]

Lol

[twin rampart]

it's just overshadowed by better skills

[limpid wigeon]

ice crash is almost sweep tier

[honest epoch]

fire the balance team, they killed the hype.

[twin rampart]

nah it was ok

[fallen pewter]

Just overshadowed by EQ, the better bigger Ice Crash.

[limpid wigeon]

[twin rampart]

you can do uber elder with it on a reasonable budget

[limpid wigeon]

what is a reasonable budget to you

[fallen pewter]

You can do Uber Elder with anything

[violet nymph]

It only killed hype if you were using the OP crap

[twin rampart]

yeah but not on reasonable budgets

some of them require either insane skill

[midnight phoenix]

Ice crash is preeeeeetty bad as far as skills go

[twin rampart]

or insane budgets

it's better than given credit for

[midnight phoenix]

Like i would rather do uber elder on i dunno

Frostbolt

Or like

[north dragon]

I love heavy strike

[solid nova]

honestly, I was hype for melee but that manifesto has me completely sketched

[odd steeple]

So, by the way (based on some assumptions): If Ruthless + Multistrike works the same way it does now (triggers every third use), and Animation Canceling on Multistrike means only one attack animation happens, then Ruthless is a 110% more multiplier if you animation cancel perfectly

[solid nova]

probably just gonna do arc traps again

[twin rampart]

yeah

[fallen pewter]

Yeah, I was looking at that too, @odd steeple

[twin rampart]

ruthless + multistrike together is godly

[midnight phoenix]

11123

Lul

Yes

[twin rampart]

i'm pretty sure in my mind right now

i'm gonna do beserker heavy strike

[fallen pewter]

On the other hand, if you don't animation cancel... it feels infinitely worse than it already does.

[limpid wigeon]

i wouldn't if i were you

[twin rampart]

why you hating

[midnight phoenix]

Im imagining legions of brainlets dying cos they tunnelvisioned on timing ruthless multistrike

[limpid wigeon]

im just looking out for you

[midnight phoenix]

And stood in a slam

[twin rampart]

i did uber elder hc on like the most ghetto builds 😐

[limpid wigeon]

you're so cool dude

[twin rampart]

i'm used to janky shit

which is why I said icecrash isn't really that bad...

[odd steeple]

Haha, just like the good old days of getting out of sync with your Bladeflurry + Ruthless

[limpid wigeon]

i mean you're literally just wrong about that

[twin rampart]

really

[limpid wigeon]

really

[north dragon]

Really

[twin rampart]

must be why I did uber elder with a doomsower 😐

[wide ridge]

speaking of, is ruthless gone? seems that multi strike does the same thing

[limpid wigeon]

mmmmmm im sure you did son

[fallen pewter]

Because you can do Uber Elder with almost anything

[twin rampart]

in HC?

😐

diff story

[fallen pewter]

Yeah, dodge better

[odd steeple]

I mean they didn't say it was gone, but I wouldn't be TOO surprised

[wide ridge]

uber elder was done with lightning warp totems

[twin rampart]

you still need enough dmg to make up for potential mistakes you're going to make

[fallen pewter]

Almost all of Uber Elder is dodging.

[twin rampart]

the shorter the fight the less oppertunities for mistakes

[fallen pewter]

Multistrike still will have something like 50% more attack speed, and still auto-repeats your skill twice @wide ridge

[twin rampart]

in sc sure it's just dodging, in hc if you're not mana guardian cheesing it's not that simple

[fallen pewter]

If you don't die, it's the same.

[limpid wigeon]

just build 4 head

[fallen pewter]

Build tanky, dodge better.

Same in SC and HC alike.

[twin rampart]

In theory sure, people always panic in HC though

[limpid wigeon]

i beat uber elder in hc with basic attack

[fallen pewter]

Not everyone gets super stressed in HC to the point of making mistakes.

[twin rampart]

Done uber elder in HC? It's pretty butt clencher fight if you're not some meta cheesy build.

[limpid wigeon]

yeah i did it with basic attack i told you

[twin rampart]

UberDan's by far the best HC bosser in the game and even he still makes mistakes

[midnight phoenix]

Anyway i came to this channel to get away from ppl telling me about their anecdotal poe experiences

[twin rampart]

So...............

[midnight phoenix]

So i guess im out again

[limpid wigeon]

i did uber elder hc with basic attack its really not as bad as people say

[twin rampart]

I'm sure you did bro

Dunno why you're trolling me when all I said was ice crash isn't as bad as you say it is shrug

[kindred dagger]

So basicaly feels like with legion the game give us more damage but makes us taking more damage as well..... not sure thats a god idea id rather deal less but take less

[marsh wagon]

Why does it look like we're taking more?

[twin rampart]

you get new defensive skills

[marsh wagon]

Did they confirm bosses n mods get dmg multipliers

[twin rampart]

like iron skill and reworked molten shell

*iron skin

and immortal call is technically buffed vs elemental dmg

so

[turbid quartz]

in general defensive ascendancies will be pog

[limpid wigeon]

immortal call is nerfed for basically every build

[marsh wagon]

Not touching ic anymore on my witches really

[twin rampart]

It's better vs elemental

😐

[limpid wigeon]

the builds that use it well now use molten shell/ironskin better

[kindred dagger]

No you dont get knew defensive skill cause you cant use all of them, they added way more restriction

[marsh wagon]

Long as enemy cannot ohko u, ur pretty safe

Additional def is often wasted

[limpid wigeon]

so immortal call will probably still be used by casters and such on a cwdt

[twin rampart]

skin has a cap

[kindred dagger]

and they said monsters hit harder more efficiently, and they change various things that makes overall investstement in def lower like ES

[limpid wigeon]

but it wont be used by armour builds

[twin rampart]

immortal call has longer duration

they both have seperate uses

[limpid wigeon]

the duration isnt relevant though for most builds

[marsh wagon]

Did they say enemy hits harder? Pls link sauce

[limpid wigeon]

its the split second of invulnerability so that you don't get killed by porcupines or a strongbox pack insta hitting you

[kindred dagger]

i just read patch

[twin rampart]

shrug stop making shitty builds

[marsh wagon]

I understand patch notes are not out

[limpid wigeon]

wtf are you talking about all business

[turbid quartz]

i'm just annoyed

they swapped from a run around and everything dies caster meta.

[twin rampart]

neither of those things are really a problem if you just actually build defenses 😐

[marsh wagon]

Team witch will persevere!

[turbid quartz]

to a spin2win run around and everything dies meta

LUL

[limpid wigeon]

are you disabled mentally? i need to know before i make fun of you if it'll be discrimination

[kindred dagger]

... they know they affected leech previously, they bring a special league for melees BUT they dont give some back shit to leech... dev logic... !!!

[silver kettle]

!mute @limpid wigeon -t 1h

[brisk cape]

I'm missing the following permissions: Manage Channels

[turbid quartz]

all while nerfing defenses that aren't straight up armor based LUL

[silver kettle]

sigh

[limpid wigeon]

really bro

for one comment

[violet nymph]

This manifesto screams: slow down and turn off auto pilot

[limpid wigeon]

gimmie a warning at least

[turbid quartz]

that would be your warninf

[silver kettle]

not for that level of comment, that's vile

[twin rampart]

They wanted to get rid of auto pilot defenses

[turbid quartz]

1 hour of warning LUL

[twin rampart]

too long people have been completely reliant on massive hp pools and immortal call + leech

which means armor and evasion were basically bastard childs

[turbid quartz]

LEECH

What leech

[twin rampart]

because why build armor/evasion when you could just massively pump damage out and live just enough

well it's either leech or massive es regen etc.

[turbid quartz]

they already nerfed leech

it's just massive ES or HP pools

[twin rampart]

yeah well the consecutive nerfs

that reworked leech formula or whatever

that i can't' even begin to explain

[turbid quartz]

that's all it really is.

[marsh wagon]

I would expect massive hp or es to still work

[twin rampart]

pretty sure the ydidn't like massive hp or es pools

they wanted people to actually build defenses

[kindred dagger]

the game is allready hard enough, im fine that they want to make the game more interactive but so they have to make the game less shitty, auto defense are there to prevent you from dying cause of invisible shits, one shot stuff like that, as long as you got no control over what hapen on the screen, lowering defensives options and buffing mobs is just a pain in the ass

[turbid quartz]

gone are the days where you can just pump dmg and try to facetank things by out dmging it LUL

[marsh wagon]

Long as u can't get ohko ur sustain will outheal inc dmg

[twin rampart]

i mean that probably only works if you're a slayer

which sort of makes sense

now everyone has to layer defenses somehow

[violet nymph]

I can say chieftain can do it no problem

[marsh wagon]

Es will stack maxes i doubt we'll invest in layers

[turbid quartz]

ofc cheiftan should do it np

[violet nymph]

50% life recovery rate is stupid

[marsh wagon]

10000es n 75res tanks everything

[turbid quartz]

it's the redheaded step brother of jugg.

[kindred dagger]

They nerfed ES aswell

[twin rampart]

trickster was op as hell because of layers

😐

[marsh wagon]

U can get 10k

U don't need those 18k

[twin rampart]

hey look i got like 9k+ es with all this evasion

[turbid quartz]

look, the layers WOULD be okay

if they just nerfed ED

ES*

[twin rampart]

they did

it's gonna be alot harder to break 10k now

[kindred dagger]

An good ES amount wasnt that easy to get anyway that often cost a lot of currency so...

[turbid quartz]

they nerfed ES AND Trickster's layers

so Thonk

[twin rampart]

well i mean we came full circle from legacy and before

so

let's just be glad we're playing Alkaizer league 😐

[turbid quartz]

just sit back and blow kisses to your new jugg overloards LUL

[marsh wagon]

Even at 10% nerf

[violet nymph]

Tbh the salt over this manifesto is great. Like get over it and play the game. We know you will do it anyways.

[turbid quartz]

as they spin2win everything

[twin rampart]

jugg is def going to be

[lament dagger]

I wished they had nerfed Molten Strike tho

[twin rampart]

one of the safer bossers in the game

[lament dagger]

fucking hate that skill

[twin rampart]

I bet you MS gets nerfed

into oblivion

[marsh wagon]

I expect 10k to b achievable considering most poeninjas had 15-18

[lament dagger]

no mention of MS in the manifesto tho

[twin rampart]

bet you my fucking left nut

lots of things aren't mentioned in the manifesto

and always end up getting butchered

[kindred dagger]

honestly im really in a weird state, this league was so promising but the more i read the more i feel they messed up and made the game even more hard but in a unfair way, lets hope when the full patch note is released will see good stuff, numbers and so

[twin rampart]

dood why you hating

[lament dagger]

what do you mean by "hard"?

[twin rampart]

for once it'll be melee domination

[violet nymph]

Even if they dont nerf MS, it receives an indirect nerf cuz of the other melee skills getting better

[twin rampart]

i mean

[odd steeple]

ED/Contagion domination

[twin rampart]

the return of earthquake?!

[turbid quartz]

you're gonna see flicker nubs, spin 2 win nubs, ms jugg nubs :^)

[twin rampart]

flicker being great again?!

[lament dagger]

what is this nub elitist shit?

[turbid quartz]

ed/cont won't do so well with trickster anymore

[lament dagger]

as if playing spell caster was some galactic brain shit

everyone who plays PoE is a nub

[turbid quartz]

so you'll see a good increase of ED/Cont death aura witches

[odd steeple]

I mean you could do it on frickin' deadeye last league so...

[turbid quartz]

nah I didn't like casters dahbomb lol

i'm one of those dual strike bleed fuckers

LUL

[lament dagger]

oh thats me too!

hahaha

[turbid quartz]

jk poison PepeHands

[kindred dagger]

lol you mean using arc at ful screen cleaning the full map ? yeah that feels really genius to use

[marsh wagon]

All of poe isn't some high execution thing lets not try n claim it req ir proves skill

[lament dagger]

well now we have animation cancelling tho

REAL skill added to the game

[twin rampart]

animation cancelling does actually add some element of skill though no matter how minor it is

[kindred dagger]

Thats the problem with right clic game you dont have much control over what hapenning, too many situation where happen unfun unfair shits

[twin rampart]

it opens the door for them to make more complex bosses that require you to animation cancel

[turbid quartz]

My second char for sure is gonna be https://youtu.be/Zl9eKbJaPgc

[twin rampart]

which is going to make some people cry but you know

whatever

[turbid quartz]

I'm gonna blind everyone

[proper slate]

so anti afk boss killer?

[turbid quartz]

in anger

[marsh wagon]

I'm not sure abt that. If boss cannot ohko, player dmg can kill within 10-60s...

[twin rampart]

i'm' so playing that build

[marsh wagon]

What difference will it make

[twin rampart]

oh yeah armor is now great again

[turbid quartz]

legit, second build. I will group up and blind everyone for the shits of it.

[lament dagger]

animation canceling just makes the player stronger relative to the enemies is all

you can jump out of shit easier

[kindred dagger]

having more intereactive fight would be nice the game is just not made for this and those changes lead actually to the total opposit

[twin rampart]

they did make some early game fights harder

[lament dagger]

animation canceling is a big deal early game yea

racing is the most impacted

[twin rampart]

i suspect 4.0 will add stronger enemies

[turbid quartz]

bruh bosses die so fast regardless

[twin rampart]

and lots of reworks in general

[lament dagger]

but when you have like 20 APS Berserker, animation canceling isnt gonna make much of a difference

[twin rampart]

they buffed mob hp

alot

like ALOT

[lament dagger]

they said rares hae twice HP

[twin rampart]

game should be alot more interesting tbh

in a long time

been kind of stale

[kindred dagger]

nice so farming build will be harder to play ?

[marsh wagon]

Did they give any specifics on incoming dmg? 10% up? 50% up? Nothing mentioned?

[twin rampart]

well yeah

[lament dagger]

initially yes but eventually they will even out

[twin rampart]

i'm pretty sure they really never intended windripper to tier 16 farm

and it never did post it's initial nerf

[turbid quartz]

All bosses early in the map are just glorified Hillock's

Like bruh.

[lament dagger]

you might take two shots to kill a rare pack then a one shot and even that is exaggeration

[kindred dagger]

yeah dying to even more unfair things will make the game better

[twin rampart]

it's when abyss jewels came that windriopper suddenly became a god tier weapon

[lament dagger]

remember when they DOUBLE boss HP in maps?

we dont even feel it anymore

[turbid quartz]

who cares about if they swing slower and you can dodge them.

[twin rampart]

yeah that's because there's been alot of power creep since then

[turbid quartz]

it's like POG i can dodge it.

[twin rampart]

to be fair

[turbid quartz]

but bosses generally just flop over

[twin rampart]

on initial release that double boss hp was ridic

[turbid quartz]

the only bosses that are 'HARD' for their levels

[lament dagger]

I dont think the rare thing will all that impactful UNLESS

its like a super buffed rare

[turbid quartz]

or could be considered 'HARD'

[lament dagger]

like a Spirit inside + Essence mode

[turbid quartz]

would be the ascending boss.

[lament dagger]

or a Rare beast with Spirit inside and buffed by other means like map mods

[twin rampart]

i think people also tired of dying to boss mechanics

when multistriking

so animation cancelling seemed like a pretty big priority

[marsh wagon]

Vortex not nerfed

Safe

[twin rampart]

i knew they were reworking animations didn't expect it that early

[kindred dagger]

people are tired of dying by blind mecanics oneshot invisble things coming out of nowhere

[solid nova]

yeah, even at 20aspd being able to whirling blades out on command instead of at even a slight delay is an improvement

[twin rampart]

There's very few things that legit one shot

like very few.

[kindred dagger]

lol

[marsh wagon]

That's why extra def has minimal value

All these layers are only useful if they reduce ohko

[violet nymph]

And most ohko is intended and telegraphed

I say MOST

[twin rampart]

what actually one shots you in this game

slams? avoidable

[marsh wagon]

Really hate mastermind fight

[twin rampart]

and actually tankable under the right circumstances

uber atziri flameblasts? that's your own fault

super deep delves? you knew that going in

[violet nymph]

Izaro slams thats your fault

[solid nova]

I mean, I can't think of any ohko that isn't avoidable in some way

[marsh wagon]

Wat makes a diff is not more dmg or def. Its aoe, clear speed

Movespd

[twin rampart]

the only time you'd really get one shot is like some act of god set of map mods on a red tier map

like out of the blue

or betrayal on reds

that's about it

[violet nymph]

The only OHKO that was really stopped by IC was porcupines

[twin rampart]

that's not even really a one hit ko

[violet nymph]

And thats solved by not being stupid

[twin rampart]

that's just a big burst of damage from multiple hits

like legit betrayal can one shot you but it does require some circumstances to occur

[marsh wagon]

10k hp or es, 75res n ur gucci

[twin rampart]

lots of new defensive mechanics and reworked tree, plus new jewels which could potentially change things, so i wouldn't whine about shit yet

[marsh wagon]

I guess u could use layers to skimp of hp or res

[twin rampart]

that be like you walked up that beyond fire boss and he molten striked you on a multi proj map and you were like why am i ded

come on bro what u expect

[lament dagger]

lots of stuff one shots you in the game when map mods are involved

[twin rampart]

hardly

[marsh wagon]

Layers cab probably serve to reduce gearing costs

[lament dagger]

or rather

I shouldnt say one shot

[twin rampart]

big burst of dmg is diff from one shotting

[lament dagger]

I should say

full life to 0 in an unreactable time

[marsh wagon]

When u layer u can get away with less gear

[twin rampart]

big bursts of dmg can be mitigated

[violet nymph]

I mean i was able to tank minotaur with 6k hp, the leech from chieftain, and the regen of concentrated ground

[twin rampart]

one shots can't

i mean not reasonably so

[violet nymph]

You really dont need massive defensive stats

[kindred dagger]

leave it we are in presence of a master piece game hero

[marsh wagon]

Use em to save on gearing costs!

[violet nymph]

You need to play smarter

[twin rampart]

i never proclaimed to be a master piece game hero

but if you really think there's a ton of one shots in this game you're the exact reason why GGG deleted CWDT IC

[kindred dagger]

even huge player dies to random things but hey their fault they are trash you know, cant be cause of the perfect game and dev choice no no

[twin rampart]

because you were reliant on a crutch to carry you

they want you to actually think about your defensive setup, makes the game more interesting

[marsh wagon]

Ic is a tool. It should b used

[kindred dagger]

no

[violet nymph]

Also something: you should always be in trouble playing the game

[twin rampart]

rather than "dump into hp / es or go all damage"

[violet nymph]

Otherwise it will be boring in long run

[twin rampart]

nah that's never been their philosophy

[marsh wagon]

Ehhh... Its really safe

[twin rampart]

they want you to have bursts of danger

[marsh wagon]

10k es n u faceroll

[twin rampart]

the problem was that the game became so ridiculous there was never danger ever

[marsh wagon]

What is going to actually hurt u

[violet nymph]

Thats what i meant. There always needs to be something to be able to threaten you

[marsh wagon]

There's no fanger

There still isn't n there won't b

[twin rampart]

they want you to be like "ok 30 mins of mapping, 2 mins of burst danger" or something like that

[marsh wagon]

This is relaxing game

[twin rampart]

one of johnathan's interviews shows that

[kindred dagger]

those kind of game arent made to be intereactive thats the problem

[marsh wagon]

Ppl turn off brain

[twin rampart]

*says that

[marsh wagon]

Just roll for loot

[twin rampart]

what do you mean not made to be interactive

lol

[kindred dagger]

so forcing you to be able to react to 0.000001 milisec shit coming at you is just not the right things to do

[twin rampart]

you have plenty of time to react to lots of things

[kindred dagger]

no

[twin rampart]

yes you do actually

[kindred dagger]

no

[twin rampart]

maybe if you weren't going nascar speed all the time you would

[violet nymph]

Its almost like all the changes they made are saying turn off auto pilot and pay attention?????

[marsh wagon]

Just walk out of the way. Or skip bosses n just map

No boss no mechanics

[twin rampart]

like my bad, you can't just literally 12345 and hold rmb through the whole map

Like it's not healthy for the game when you literally just go all damage and just enough hp to survive a hit

[marsh wagon]

Its meta

[twin rampart]

because that was what vaal fb meta was

[marsh wagon]

It allows for relaxing safe runs

[violet nymph]

It WAS meta

[marsh wagon]

I see no benefit to change it

[violet nymph]

Now its not

[twin rampart]

and I played enough vaal fb for a life time

[marsh wagon]

Why do u not think its meta now?

[twin rampart]

because potentially GGG has shifted the meta to where you actually have to build defenses

because building defenses is probably going to give you more EHP then just simply stacking HP or ES

There was a time where Lightning Coil was a tier 1 chest and was god tier

[lament dagger]

about time tbh

[marsh wagon]

Have we any reason to believe dmg will increase to b able to ohko 10k reliably?

Do link sauce

[lament dagger]

I want to see more "increased effect of Fortify" on tree

[twin rampart]

Like Lightning Coil was so expensive it was crazyt

Coil/Evaison/Phase/Acro all together was the best defense in the game at the time, along with op firetrap that carried 6 man aprties lul

[violet nymph]

Literally the goal of the changes are all make you actually slow down and not autopilot everything. Like they saw how it affected the game with worb. It was bad

[marsh wagon]

But do we have any sauce

[twin rampart]

now they want you to layer some defenses and have some active defenses

it's not a bad idea

[marsh wagon]

If not, i see these as filler to make it easier to hit endgame hp without gear

N stack layers

[twin rampart]

eventually you'll reach a point where you don't really have to use active defenses except for really strong endgame content

but that's to be expected

people should have known GGG was gonna nerf bat the meta

they actually don't like auto pilot clear speed meta, they made that very clear when they dumpstered vaal spark / vaal fb

[violet nymph]

They like SOME clearspeed meta.
They dont like autopilot clearspeed meta

[twin rampart]

i mean tailwind is sort of auto pilot, but a stiff breeze kills those builds so

[unkempt topaz]

chris basically said if your build doesn't clear fast its not as good at the game so i think they're supportive/understanding of clearspeed meta at this point actually

[marsh wagon]

Speed is the main benchmark of power atm

[unkempt topaz]

when tarke asked about potentially balancing out single target/clearspeed for the league mechanic

[marsh wagon]

We overkill most n can't b ohko by most

[violet nymph]

There is a difference between kill fast. And autopilot

[marsh wagon]

All that's left is speed to separate builds

N cost

[kindred dagger]

The only things that looks really great is the potential improovement of various gem, like the native splash on melee gem so now you should easily be able to use things like glacial hamer if you want

[twin rampart]

clear speed meta is fine

[unkempt topaz]

i'm still all for doubling mob health towards endgame

[twin rampart]

turn off brain clear speed meta is not fine

[kindred dagger]

maybe having some main skill without requiring a secondary one for farming or so

[unkempt topaz]

makin it take 2-3 hits to kill mobs occasionally

[twin rampart]

pretty sure they are totally against that

all history says so

[marsh wagon]

We overkill by a big margin

[twin rampart]

every fast autopilot build gets absolutely destroyed

[unkempt topaz]

ya

[marsh wagon]

I expect we can handle triple hp

[unkempt topaz]

they increased rare hp bonus by 50%

so thats def a step in the right direction

beasts will indeed be insane

[twin rampart]

fakener? destroyed. mjolner? destroyed up until very recently where it's okish. vaal fb/vaal spark? destroyed

etc.

[unkempt topaz]

okay, make new builds

[marsh wagon]

Cold vortex lives. Unnerfed

Moves into legion

[twin rampart]

yeah but you can't actually turn off your brain with vortex

i tried

[unkempt topaz]

having onehit clear speed also hurts diversity

[twin rampart]

you sort of can

[unkempt topaz]

not just tanky mobs

[marsh wagon]

U just run thru n press a button

[twin rampart]

but you still have to hit a few buttons

[marsh wagon]

What do u need to think

Mobs don't even survive the initial hit

Let alone the dot

[twin rampart]

u still have a few instances of

[marsh wagon]

We can take 3x hp ez

[twin rampart]

how can i clear efficiently

[kindred dagger]

The problem is where ok lets imagine you dodge shit ok cool but as long as you still get one shot by random shit thats not intereactive it could be nice if they find some balance where you actually feel that you really are fighting, like more HP both for player and mob that allow you to take some hit without loosing instantly 90% of your life, stressing and doing random shit.

you could have some space to move in fight and interact with whats hapening

[twin rampart]

is that betrayal mob gonna die before it hits me

etc.

like vaal fb literally was

turn off brain

shield charge map

occassionaly hit vaal fb

pretty sure I got it odwn to where i could clear strand in 2 vaal fbs

IIRC? Maybe it was 1

I mean it obviously didn't help that strand was the meta map lmao

[odd steeple]

@kindred dagger I guess we have different definitions of "interactive" -- the game where if I ignore a slam attack I can lose 90% of my HP is way more interactive than the one where I get hit for 30% of my life every 0.7s

[marsh wagon]

Why does it matter - 90/

-90% if u dun die

N sustain it b fast

[kindred dagger]

cause the game doesnt work like that ?

[marsh wagon]

Bosses tend to recover after a big hit...

[kindred dagger]

now i get it... have fun

[lament dagger]

off screening is still the best defense

[odd steeple]

I don't really understand the mentality of "I want the game to be more interactive" plus "Oh god they can't nerf that, it's our best defensive tool"

[lament dagger]

I loved playing my Ice Shot Deadeye

could off screen whole packs with super chain

[marsh wagon]

I only look for entertainment they can change anything theu want long as its fun

[kindred dagger]

thats becasue you dont understand what people said so you just go for your biased logic

[marsh wagon]

If not, i find something else

[lament dagger]

i think its really a matter of which is your preferred method of balancing defense in a game

either full investment in one area like say ES and CI

or balanced investment

I think we are getting to a point where balanced approach is getting better and better

[marsh wagon]

Long as u dun ohko most atks n have a form of sustain ur gd

[lament dagger]

Trickster is a great example

[odd steeple]

What is your goal then? "I want there to be fewer one-shots in the game" -- well then cool, there also needs to be fewer ways to regen 100% of your HP in one second

[lament dagger]

it has so many different defensive options

they did that tho

[marsh wagon]

Simple idea

[lament dagger]

they been doing that since they nerfed Vaal Pact

and thats good

old Vaal Pact was stupid

[odd steeple]

Yeah, they have been, and I think it's made the game more challenging and interesting

[marsh wagon]

What is the goal is it to have more player deaths? Increase the bar to reach before a player was 99% safe?

[lament dagger]

they have also been making the game more reactable

the goal is to have "fair" playable deaths

[marsh wagon]

Or is the goal simply to let players roll face

[lament dagger]

thats why they changed ele reflect and corrupted blood

[marsh wagon]

N relax

While rolling for loot

[lament dagger]

I think the idea is that

[marsh wagon]

Did ggg confirm this in any way?

[lament dagger]

mapping should be relatively easy going with the occasional thing you ahve to worry about

confirm what?

where as end game bossing should be difficult

the stuff they consistently nerf is the stuff that trivializes end game bossing at low investment

except for like summoners I guess

they are ok with summoners making joke of bosses

[odd steeple]

Summoners are fairly high investment in my mind (spectres at least) because you are sort of taking a risk that they won't die and you would need to go and resummon in ilvl 86 zone or whatever

[lament dagger]

sure

I can see that

plus the whole clunkyness of playing it

your cost is playing Summoners and dealing with that shit

if you survived mapping and general shittyness long enough then you deserve a little victory lap in the end

thats prob how GGG sees it too

and Summoners arent that common either

same thing as Trappers

which is why they nerfed Trapper clear speed and not really their damage

Trapper and Miner

[odd steeple]

I think they just don't see people playing them and so they can't justify lowering their power level

[lament dagger]

you can still blow up Shaper with GC Miner

but you arent that great at clear speed

[odd steeple]

They did nerf GC miner multiple times though

[lament dagger]

and you cant face tank anything

and its still good

you just need more investment on it

before you could kill GC with minimal investment

also choice matters as well

why they nerfed off hand shaper stat sticks

there wasn't a choice there, there was just that

[odd steeple]

I mean there are only 49 characters doing GC miner on poe.ninja

Which is a HUGE drop

[lament dagger]

GC Miner was always behind Arc Trapper tho

Arc Trapper is a good balance of single target and clear

GC Miner is more specialized

which is why I think they shoudl be nerfing MOlten Strike

ESP in this patch

[odd steeple]

There are more Arc miners than Arc trappers now

[lament dagger]

or else its going to be another league that Alkaizer

same thing

like I honestly consider Trap/Mine the same shit relative to spell casting

[odd steeple]

They nerfed traps quite a lot though

[lament dagger]

its the same class, similar nodes and scaling

[odd steeple]

Since the heyday

[lament dagger]

you either choose one or the other

[odd steeple]

hard to justify

[lament dagger]

I really hope this doesnt become Molten Strike league

[odd steeple]

It's like mines but with one less damage link and shitter damage on the actual support

[lament dagger]

in Synthesis Molten Strike was like the main melee skill that ppl still used

some ppl prefer Trap playstyle

so theres that

looking at POE

it seems Trap and Mine is split right down the middle

50-50

well... 51% trap and 50% mine

for some reason

prob erroneously counting someone who has both

[odd steeple]

How much is just Lightning Spire Trap being busted?

[lament dagger]

actually its regular Lightning Trap thats 33% of Saboteur

i am counting 5+ main link

Lightning Spire trap is 9%

they also nerfed that recently

still great tho

[odd steeple]

Ahh sure, Lightning Trap too, dodges the problem that the trap support is bad

[lament dagger]

some Ice Traps in there too

for Saboteur

[odd steeple]

It used to be that Trap Support was worse than Remote Mine Support, but Cluster Traps was better than Minefield

[lament dagger]

its Lightning Trap > Arc > GC > Spire Trap > Ice Trap > Ice Spear

based on PoE Ninja that is

[odd steeple]

now Trap Support is just worse in all ways

Except targeting distant enemies

And requiring one button press fewer

It's your "clunkyness" theory in action 😛

[lament dagger]

yea I agree

[odd steeple]

Maybe that's why there's like a dozen primary Trap skills, and one primary Mine skill that doesn't even show up on poe.ninja it's so unpopular

[lament dagger]

honestly when Arc Trap was like busted, there still weren tthat many ppl playing it relative to how strong it was

simply because it was trap

but back then there were many issues

you had way too much automation of spells like Poet Pen Arc builds

[twin rampart]

it was a seriously obnoxious skill

[odd steeple]

Well, Arc Hiero was also super good at the time

yeah and Poet's Pen

[lament dagger]

oh yea

[twin rampart]

like u could do it in anything

[lament dagger]

Arc Totem Hiero

[twin rampart]

totems poets pens

[lament dagger]

Arc is still good tho

I played it post patch

[odd steeple]

RIP Fire Nova Mine btw

[lament dagger]

the clear speed is the real thing

[odd steeple]

has that EVER been a good skill?

[lament dagger]

yes for single target

used to be good during double dipping days

could do insane boss damage

there are prob videos of it

[odd steeple]

I only caught the tail end of those days, started in legacy league

and by then the double dipping boss killer thing to do was poison BV

[lament dagger]

there was a ton of ways to exploit double dipping

and conversion

[odd steeple]

RIP Voltaxic

[lament dagger]

another thing I am glad that is gone

Voltaxic should get rebuffed tho

many of these uniques and mechanics need to get buffed every single double dipping got reworked