Sonic Leaks, Rumours & Speculation

[past matrix]

ig that would just be mania adventures, if anything.

[still epoch]

Or the same npcs

[past matrix]

or no, the ok ko crossover style?

[wide portal]

good ending: Flying Bark, Powerhouse, or Mercury Filmworks

[past matrix]

doesn’t matter, calarts style isn’t a thing anyway

[wide portal]

Powerhouse has done good sonic shit before, Flying Bark is a godsend (and they have a professional relationship with Paramount which only strengthens my Nickelodeon theory)

Mercury does rigged work but they do really fucking good rigged work

bad ending: TMS or Snipple

TMS because I know for a fact that they’re just gonna get the X guys again and it’s gonna be miserable and I can’t stand the thought of seeing a X Sonic face again

and Snipple because they’ve been popping up a LOT lately in regards to 2D kids shows and their output is

inconsistent

to say the least

[past matrix]

I wasn’t exactly crazy about their recent work on superstars either to be honest.

[wide portal]

Same

[past matrix]

wasn’t helped by the powerhouse short that came prior.

[torn trench]

What has Mercury and Snipple worked on?

[wide portal]

Mercury worked on the Mickey Mouse shorts, Kid Cosmic, s1 of Star Vs., and Hilda

those are the ones I’ve mainly watched but there’s a bunch of other shit too

[torn trench]

Plug why are you Nero

[wide portal]

My bad let me fix that

There we go

[glossy sphinx]

"fix"

[wide portal]

anyway, Snipple worked on the newest P&F season + pitched a version of that leaked Garfield pilot for Nick

[untold kayak]

https://tenor.com/view/happenagain-netflixdark-gif-24133691

[still epoch]

Im ok with that

I might be one of the few people who thought the cutscenes of superstars were super charming

They were sorta low budget but never too off model to be like, a problem

The game cutscenes were cute, the intro really struggles at some points

[untold kayak]

Okay to be fair, I do like them too

the intro was weird

it was like choppy

[still epoch]

Its cute!

[untold kayak]

Animeajay described the issue with the first teaser of DBS Super Hero

[strange estuary]

It would've been neat if it was consistent

[untold kayak]

https://youtu.be/QWL2oKW8A0k?t=330

[cunning echo]

I didn't think superstars cinematics looked low budget

Is just that we are used to Hesse style

Like compared to origins ig it looks lower budget? But I think superstars looked more like a tv show

[still epoch]

Yea thats how i felt about it

If we had a tv show in this quality, id be ok with it

I also like the artstyle cuz its kinda cute in off model way

[cunning echo]

Is just that Hesse style is too clean and kinda like shiny

[still epoch]

Yea it id incredibly clean

[cunning echo]

Like if you get a clean plate 🍽️

[still epoch]

This is more messy

[cunning echo]

But superstars is more like an anime

Or sonic ova ig

[verbal tundra]

Lowkey superstars cutscenes don’t look bad it’s only really the intro for me

I see the vision but it needed more time / better direction

Other cutscenes r cute tho

[cunning echo]

It also kinda lacks saturation

But that is subjective

[prime hearth]

I think the artstyle for the superstars cutscenes is nice in stills, its moreso seeing it in motion where it all falls apart

its so hard to put into words but it just feels very, unnatural?

https://youtu.be/MYbBM7yg8CU

first 20 secs or so of this especially, something about how juddery and slow it all feels

no other 2D sonic animated thing is quite like it (derogatory)

[dusty osprey]

Its something i've come to grips with its just most people don't take sonic that seriously. Sonic being serious is a thing that suprises them but does not reinform their perspectve if they didn't already have it or aren't open to having it changed

and a lot of those people have jobs in creative fields

I mentioned the elder millennial who gets weird about non classic sonic but there are plenty of those dudes still in animation, games etc. And not just that outside influences too. We just gotta hope whoever does the next hypothetical sonic show cares enough

[zinc spear]

While maybe that sentiment rings true a little bit I feel like it's definitely changed in the past couple years

[dusty osprey]

I don't think so tbh

Kids already took sonic mad serious, or at least a portion of them. That hasn't changed

[zinc spear]

Compare where we are now to 15 years ago. or even 10

[dusty osprey]

I don't think its changed much

Sega has taken sonic more seriously, but the audience is where its always been

'm not saying no one does. And maybe most might be a bit too much. But a lot of the audience just doesn't enegage with sonic in that way

sonic being serious is a strange novelty

"Oh i remember that when i was a kid"

[dusty osprey]

now that said you are right in one very specific kinda way

And that is there are whole ass adults who grew up on sonic adventure

Me for example

Now just because you did doesn't mean you take it more serious. I know plenty of people who did and don't. But there's a greater chance you do

All that said that doesn't mean that sega shouldn't take sonic seriously. It should, like i said. Its a novelty and that novelty draws people who might not normally be interested. There's value in that. All i'm saying is, i can see people making a show not particularly caring to engage with some of the more depth if it gets in the way of whatever story they want to tell

hell ians guilty of that!

[prime hearth]

watching the rest of superstars' animated cutscenes (many of which I'd never seen cos I've only managed the final boss as amy lol) and I think its incredibly funny that in knux's ending they drop him off on angel island and he just

straight up does not appear during the final final boss, bro was bluntly just not invited 😭

[wide portal]

tv animation is expensive so if you have a really clean and cohesive artstyle, that look is inevitably gonna get spread out across 24 episodes and become relatively more inconsistent

and like, you can afford this technically if your base is already solid

but if you have a messy ass base, it’s just gonna make the final product look even worse

[untold kayak]

He does appear

he glides while dropping rings

[prime hearth]

somehow its even funnier he dipped before the cutscene then lmao

"alright you got me rings seeya I've got chips for tea"

[dusty osprey]

As far as art style goes

If im being honest, im fine with dark beginnings/crossworlds animated style of cellshaded 3d models with occasional 2d elements

[stiff salmon]

same here

i can also take the dandadan animation studio aswell

[prime hearth]

had to google which studio that was but oh my GOD i would kill for science saru on sonic

[dusty osprey]

That said, i would like them to try something interesting with the character visuals and general style.

But it doesnt seem you get leeway to do that unless you are film studio or sega themselves. And why would you when you are likely saving money by having sega send you models to base your stuff of of

But i can dream

[prime hearth]

Keep Your Hands Off Eizouken is one of my all-time faves and the Scott Pilgrim one is stellar visually

def a top tier choice

[past matrix]

Brainstorming my 'hypothetical 2010's sonic cartoon' designs.

(EXCLUDING SONIC BOOM)

[cunning echo]

Sameee

[dawn pumice]

Guys the tv show leaked

Wait it gotta be more convincing

@still epoch GET IN HERE THE TV SHOW LEAKED

@still epoch

[cunning echo]

😭

That sonic so random

Satam sonic ahh

[modest parcel]

That’s my main reason I don’t really consider TMS to be a solid option

[rugged otter]

I'd kill for dandadan/eizouken studio to be involved in a sonic

[modest parcel]

The wonkyness might work with the cute angle superstars has, but for a full production? That’s just asking for Sonic X quality all over again

[dawn pumice]

No anime studio ever

EVER

gonna work on sonic 😭

The best animation studio u gonna get is prob Powerhouse

[modest parcel]

Which is why western animation studios emulating anime is the best option

[cunning echo]

Not by them proposing it to Sega but if Sega gives the cash they're gonna do it

[modest parcel]

Feasible option, at least

[dawn pumice]

Science Saru would be sick af

But

Like come on 💀

[modest parcel]

Idk, edgerunners got studio trigger

Throw money at em

[cunning echo]

I mean is up to Sega if they choose that studio 😭

But since Sega owns TMS it saves money

[cunning echo]

A little only

[dawn pumice]

TMS is gonna animate it

And ur gonna get

Peak quality

Of superstars intro

[cunning echo]

But they did Dr stone

People like that

[dawn pumice]

https://youtu.be/MYbBM7yg8CU?feature=shared

peak

[untold kayak]

For context, it was D'ART Shtajio who worked on Chao Tales

[cunning echo]

Ig rent a girlfriend too

😭

[dawn pumice]

Also do we know if it’s an animated series?

Or is it just another short that the leakers are gassing up?

[modest parcel]

It’s a Daniel Rpl rumor

[dawn pumice]

LMAO

[cunning echo]

Oh shit tms does lupin?

Lupin third animation goes hard

[modest parcel]

Same one he ran last year

Maybe if he guesses a third time it will come true

[dawn pumice]

Daniel RPL leaks are the funniest things

[stiff salmon]

ill also take ufoldable but they're way busy with infinity castle rn

[dawn pumice]

The day we get ufotable for sonic

Is the day sonic fans stop bitching for good

[still epoch]

Decemberrrrr

Plssss

[lunar trench]

I'd rather take mappa than ufotable lmao

[dawn pumice]

Mappa don’t need anymore work 😭 😭 😭

[lunar trench]

The chainsaw man movie was so so so much better produces than the demon slayer movie

[torn trench]

Them working on Sonic means less people working on CSM season 2

[dawn pumice]

They already got one piece jjk and csm

😭

[lunar trench]

One piece ?

[dawn pumice]

Mb I thought they did some stuff on one piece

[lunar trench]

Brother that is not mappa lmaooo

[dawn pumice]

MB I THOUGHT THEY DID CURRENT ONE PIECE STUFF

😭

[stiff salmon]

the MAPPA animators

[lunar trench]

Toei are the ones making one piece

[stiff salmon]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-spongebob-meme-spongebob-squarepants-spongebob-screaming-spongebob-scared-gif-22994973

[lunar trench]

Mappa is one of the worst but let's not act like that ain't the case for every studios out there

Except a few ones

Like science saru (apparently)

And kyoanim

[stiff salmon]

if its science saru then we're set

[lunar trench]

Idg the hype with ufotable tbh

Their work on demon slayer is a far cry from what they did on fate

And they clearly don't have the directing talent to make proper movies that feel like actual movies instead of glued together episodes

The infinity train "movie" felt like that too

[autumn yacht]

my honest thoughts are there is no fundamental difference between all ages and 6-11

[dawn pumice]

I still think infinity castle has better cinematography

But the chainsaw man movie had better animation

[lunar trench]

That is... certainly a take

I can't see how you'd come up with that

But like genuinely i'm not trying to make fun of you or whatever

[dawn pumice]

The framing / camera movements for me really gave everything impact for me

Sometimes chainsaw man’s camera was a bit all over the place

[lunar trench]

Yeah no sorry i can't see it lmao

Esp with the first part of the csm movie

[humble drum]

always bet on sonic prime season 4-6

[lunar trench]

Nobody gives a single fuck

[autumn yacht]

my other meaner thought is a lot of y'all should watch less anime too

[still epoch]

No one wants to bet on that

[lunar trench]

Yeah cuz we're in 1987 ig

[still epoch]

I mean anime is the only way people treat animation as more than a kids thing

[autumn yacht]

oh right it should be watch more anime

[lunar trench]

That's a us centric pov

[still epoch]

I mean its true

[lunar trench]

For the us

It is

[still epoch]

Is things different in europe?

[lunar trench]

Yeah

Of course

[autumn yacht]

how so

[lunar trench]

OmL it's almost 3 am

Uhh

[torn trench]

I have no idea how French cartoons operate

H3ylow do y'all have any original cartoons over there

[autumn yacht]

they collaborate with the canadians (racist joke)

[lunar trench]

[lunar trench]

Well first and foremost we have the most prestigious animation school in the world in france

Called globlin

That's where people who made arcane or vincent chansard came from

But if we're talking original animz

Well for example totally spies is french

[autumn yacht]

i'm going to be that guy

[torn trench]

Oh

I forgot Totally Spies was french

Nvm then

[autumn yacht]

is that show not just the 6-11 demographic

[lunar trench]

But we've had animes on air since the 70s

[lunar trench]

Like the old gundam shows

We also have animation for asterix, luxky luke, basically shit that is supposed to be enjoyed by adult and kids

[modest parcel]

I mean most people here have watched the western cartoons targeted towards their demographic; there isn’t a lot out there for that though

[lunar trench]

It's not that we have an "adult animation" industry

It's just that in france

Idk it's kinda complicated to explain really ?

[torn trench]

So basically it's just animation instead of being put in categories between age demographics

[lunar trench]

Yeah

Of course you have things that are aimed towards younger audiences

Like miraculous lmao

Yeah ts is french too

(Who would've guess)

[autumn yacht]

my other take, this demographic appears to be "6-11 but i can tolerate it"

[lunar trench]

Your takes are very... hm.

[autumn yacht]

yeah i know very mean spirited

[lunar trench]

Nah they're just the takes of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about

[modest parcel]

I don’t get it

Though

If you mean in terms of the target audience of being all ages potentially being cringe inducing, then yeah

[torn trench]

Cuz over here it's just
Educational shows
Kids cartoons
Family friendly cartoons
Adult cartoons
There aren't really that much meant for the 12-17 demographic, the ones that technically are but aren't is some of the adult animation we have now

[modest parcel]

Sonic prime is “for all ages”, but ages above a certain bracket aren’t necessarily going to tolerate that

[still epoch]

Maybe just make something good

That doesnt insult my intelligence and time

[lunar trench]

For example here's the latest animated project coming out in theater profuced in france, it's a biopic about marcel pagnol
https://youtu.be/W83JVLT2_-4?si=5ZBiEwdexWnQ54HR

And that is indeed for all ages

[torn trench]

Or like
For shows meant for that age range, it's between "family friendly show that deals with more mature themes" or "sex blood bang bang is funny" shows

[grand cobalt]

lol

lmao

that's hilarious

[still epoch]

Naive

[torn trench]

https://tenor.com/view/stunned-wow-omg-lego-batman-lego-batman-movie-gif-7647770

[modest parcel]

Technically Demon Slayer is cringe inducing to many adults because of its comedic relief characters

[still epoch]

Maybe cuz its cringe as a whole

[modest parcel]

So it doesn’t succeed in capturing the adult crowd more often than not

[autumn yacht]

nah i'm totally saying something that would get me banned here and i've insinuated it before

[still epoch]

Say it

Saaaay it

[autumn yacht]

most of you guys like
are immature in wanting sonic to be like this

[modest parcel]

Mmmm

[still epoch]

Like what

[modest parcel]

I don’t think it is

[still epoch]

Not terrible? Lmao

[modest parcel]

There are instances where it is

[grand cobalt]

my question is why on earth would that get you banned

[still epoch]

Not sonic prime?

[autumn yacht]

because it's super insulting

[grand cobalt]

jungle penguins

[modest parcel]

We’ve been through worse….

[grand cobalt]

honey

[lunar trench]

It's moreso ignorant or missinformed

[grand cobalt]

far worse has been said here

[modest parcel]

Hand on shoulder moment

Like me personally I went through this when SLW and the like were releasing

[modest parcel]

Where the stories themselves were cringe inducing on my end, but like

[lunar trench]

It's not because it's made for children that it has to be slop

[past matrix]

to tired to do body, maybe tmrw

[modest parcel]

If that’s the nature of what sonic is, then there’s not really much point in being upset over it

Parallels to people complaining about teen titans go existing

[grand cobalt]

this kind of looks like the ok ko episode

[past matrix]

yeah, it was subconsciously done

[modest parcel]

People can cry and complain and whine to the show runners for that show, but it doesn’t help anyone when that is the show that’s currently airing

[lunar trench]

Oh yeah i just remember technicall is a co animated movie but FLOW is french

[still epoch]

This is straight up the ok ko episode

[lunar trench]

https://tenor.com/view/flow-fish-cat-movie-black-cat-gif-9999295668293436840

[still epoch]

Also that episode is mid as hell

[lunar trench]

And also entirely done in blender

[modest parcel]

At most it will send the message that fans still want the original teen titans, but

Teen titans go still exists as a creative product

[past matrix]

black man see, black man did

[modest parcel]

It’s not going away just because some adults are insulted by it

[past matrix]

me. I’m the black man.

[torn trench]

Still need to watch this one

[past matrix]

WHO DID THE THROW UP EMOJI

[still epoch]

This is exactly what i mean but somehow its so difficult for people to understand

Spongebob is for kids

[past matrix]

I SAW THAT SHIT

[still epoch]

The first few seasons are fucking awesome

I can just watch an episode right now and have a good time

[wide portal]

But dex surely if we make a million angry videos, harass the crew and random cn employees to no end, and make hundreds of change.org petitions, surely we’ll get the og tt back and then destroy ttg!!!

it just makes sense!!

[still epoch]

You can make something for kids and not make it insulting

[modest parcel]

It’s super immature of grown adults to constantly harass creatives just because a KIDS show isnt made to appeal to adults that never let the past go, just because of their perception of what kids “deserve”

But are they wrong to want it on their own time?

Nah not really

[still epoch]

Things can be made for kids AND BE GOOD

[autumn yacht]

if i see recurring behavior of fandoms wishing that things were made for them, and the thing they want is something is frankly the biggest nothing ever (sonic and the term shonen anime) (the zero difference between for kids and for everyone) i'm just going to be passive aggressive the whole time

because it just to me, shows a really big lack of........liking things

[torn trench]

Beta Snyder cult

[still epoch]

SONIC AND FRIENDS IS FOR FUCKING TODDLERS

AND ITS GOOD

ITS CUTE

[wide portal]

ironic because of episode 300

(I have not watched it I have only seen clips)

[modest parcel]

They were never going to like these things though

What you’re arguing for is for entire demographics to change their preferences just for the nebulous goal of enjoying everything

It’s fine if some groups don’t like stuff other groups do

[torn trench]

Ngl I watched a few episodes a little while ago just to see how the newer episodes are like (I'm surprised they're still making episodes) and the whole thing is just stupid silly shit, but it's like whatever😭

[wide portal]

I think my biggest wish for the next sonic cartoon is that they just set it in the regular universe and they use that as a baseline to tell stories

no dumb gimmicks, no weird twists, none of that shit

[modest parcel]

And it’s not like Shonen is niche at this point

The demographic is letting itself be heard loud and clear

[untold kayak]

I'll be honest

I don't think Sonic and friends is a good example

[lunar trench]

You have to understand that franchises as big as sonic are made for all ages, kinda like pokemon, sure it's aimed toward kids but a lot of adult consume it too, weither it's the games, the merch (sorry little timmy can't pay 500 bucks for his f4f shadow figure or little vanessa can't put ¥ 450 000 in this 24k gold ring at the pokemon store)

[modest parcel]

With anime becoming big enough to rival Hollywood nowadays

[untold kayak]

Like it's a cute series of shorts but even for toddlers I would give them muppet babies (the original one)or dora the explorer over that

[still epoch]

Thats obvious?

But i am not giving examples of better shows for young children

I am just saying

Sonic and Friends is good and well for what it is

[lunar trench]

I think it's really funny how late the us caught up on anime because of this dumb policies and mentality that you guys had on mainstream animation being just for kids

[modest parcel]

The better answer is Mania Adventures

[still epoch]

Sure yea

That IS a better example

[lunar trench]

Oh yeah for example

[torn trench]

I mean it's not like there aren't any examples of people not liking Sonic going for a more action-oriented or "serious" direction
People loved the Frontiers Divergence short and even non-Sonic fans and casuals were getting into the Crossworlds short

And those aren't really made for an older audience, they were just made for people to enjoy

[lunar trench]

Nobody in their right mind would think frontiers divergence was targeted at kids. Kids can watch it but it was made for fans, sure this might not hold up for an entire show but thinking that if sonic were to be made into an animated series again it'd be 100% aimed towards kids feels a bit weird ?

[untold kayak]

Shadow vs Emerl

that reached way beyond the Sonic stuff and got into anime TwT

[lunar trench]

And of course this can be said for all the animated prologues we got for the paqt few years

[untold kayak]

even got people curious on Emerl and his stuff

[torn trench]

My first venture into the anime rabbit hole wasn't a very smooth one

[still epoch]

Exaaaaaaaaaaaactly

[torn trench]

It was very moist and bumpy actually

[wide portal]

I think there’s a difference between a animated short promoting a game that was deliberately going for a more serious tone and a long term multi-episode animated series

[still epoch]

This is just what i am talking about

[torn trench]

Oh yeah the Shadow Gens short

That one also counts

[autumn yacht]

they are, because, harassment aside, it shows a level of human thought that could never accept a brand™ and thinks good writing is when impact frames exist
and more than that, it also leads to a lack of intelligence
someone can interact with pop culture through just teletubbies and whatever was on teletoon, inherently there isn't anything wrong with that
but growing up and thinking it should age with you is weird, because it ultimately what people are asking for is quite literally just stuff made for 8 year olds with some sanded down things and labeling it as good quality

[lunar trench]

Yeah are we gonna ingnore shadow throwing hands with emerl didn't do 200k likes on twitter. Sure it's nothing crazy but the public is here

[still epoch]

No???

That is absolutely Not the same thing

[wide portal]

the only other recent examples aside from divergence are both shadow focused shorts, a character who skews deliberately more dramatic than the others

even then I wouldn’t call the crossworlds animation nearly as serious as the other two, it’s like beyblade levels of dramatic

[still epoch]

If you think teletubbies should age with you you are fucking weird, but… for sonic to be enjoyed by everyone?

What is this example

[torn trench]

I'm pretty sure people just want them to go back to their Dreamcast energy, idk it's not that deep

[still epoch]

Its really not lmfao

[modest parcel]

Jungle Sonic already aged up with the games themselves, that’s an established standard

[autumn yacht]

only shadow the hedgehog internally

[still epoch]

They straight up wanted frontiers to be like a seinen lmao

[wide portal]

Question for the chat

[still epoch]

Inspired by it, at least

[modest parcel]

No not just shadow the hedgehog lol

[wide portal]

What would you guys consider IDW’s target audience to be

[torn trench]

Age?

[still epoch]

All ages

[modest parcel]

Uuuuuh all ages?

[untold kayak]

All ages

[torn trench]

Yeah

[untold kayak]

I never felt like the book was written for a smaller audience

[still epoch]

Meanwhile something like prime is the usually boys 6-11

[lunar trench]

You might need reading comprehension so i'd say all ages except if you use twitter

[untold kayak]

heck metal virus is probably some of the darkest game adjacent material there is

[still epoch]

But still is for kids to enjoy

[torn trench]

I was just gonna answer with "sonic fans," it took me a sec to understand the question😭

[lunar trench]

Idk i'd say idw can be enjoyed starting 8 or 10?

[untold kayak]

Of course, of course. It doesn't try to push away that audience, just it feels that I can give it to anyone and they would enjoy it

[still epoch]

I say younger idk

Any age can enjoy it i think

[modest parcel]

I’d say that IDW does have a cut off in that it’s not going to attract the same crowds that Shonen does

[still epoch]

6-99

[lunar trench]

Wow okay ig 100 yrs old sonic fans can't have shit

[still epoch]

Yea they need to GET A JOB

[lunar trench]

Ahem

[still epoch]

kkenckdnekdx

[lunar trench]

Anyway

[torn trench]

But yeah like, acting like Sonic never tried to appeal to an older audience or played itself into not being just a young kids thing is actively ignoring the stuff they put out pre-2010s

[modest parcel]

Someone at the age of 30-50 can read it, but they aren’t going to necessarily enjoy it if they’re looking for something more

[lunar trench]

I wouldn't want you anywahere near a position of power fym making 100 yrs old people work

[wide portal]

I mean I don’t know about that

[autumn yacht]

as the 2000s fan elitist

[wide portal]

But I don’t wanna argue over it too much

[lunar trench]

Evan reads idw for example

[autumn yacht]

that was all for young kids

[still epoch]

Ok

[wide portal]

I’m more interested in talking about other shit regarding the show

[still epoch]

Then we are just gonna end it here lmao

[wide portal]

like the cast! both character and voice wise

[still epoch]

Cuz thats just fucking wrong lol

[modest parcel]

It was, but it was also punching above its weight bracket

[lunar trench]

Anyway allat to say demon slayer is mid af and that you should watch chainsaw peak instead

[modest parcel]

Same as something like Infinity Train gets quoted to be

[still epoch]

What do we consider young kids in here

[modest parcel]

Or more notably adventure time

[wide portal]

“this ain’t your neighbour’s Mario!” And they were still too scared to let Sonic use a gun

[torn trench]

Btw I never said that it never appealed to younger audiences or that it deviated from that initial ballpark

[still epoch]

This is what annoys me

We have to constantly say

“I never said it wasnt appealing for kids”

[torn trench]

I just said acting like they never tried to reach out to kids past the age of 12 is crazy

[modest parcel]

Doesn’t change the fact that they wanted to introduce guns and military and death though

I think it’s kinda silly to argue against

[lunar trench]

Sonic litteraly covers every age range weither we're talking about game, animation, merch and others. Of course it's not aimed at me but again ts is like pokemon

[still epoch]

Its insane to me that we are all here having to hear its wrong for sonic to be like it was cuz sonic is for young kids so we shouldnt complain if a story is bad

[torn trench]

Now there's definitely a wrong way to do this, idk how many people would let the Sally and St. John thing fly if it were to be played out the way they wanted it to be played out
But idk man

[still epoch]

Pokemon is a great example

[autumn yacht]

see my opinions on pokemon will get me jumped

[lunar trench]

Brother

Nobody

And i mean

Nobody

[still epoch]

It cant be worse than what you said

It cannot

[lunar trench]

Gives a shit

[autumn yacht]

i think pokemon anime is pokemon at its best and it's because they kept everyone's ages the same

and never went beyond that

[still epoch]

uh

what

[modest parcel]

Nobody cares abt that 😭

[torn trench]

That's so profound

[modest parcel]

Only shippers

[lunar trench]

😭

[still epoch]

No one gives a fuck about that what do you mean

[lunar trench]

Dying

[lunar trench]

💀

[still epoch]

Regardless i wasnt even thinking the anime i was thinking the games too

[modest parcel]

But you’re right

[torn trench]

The most I see people say about it is "it's kinda weird how they mention passages of time passing but they stay the same age"

[modest parcel]

You are getting jumped

[still epoch]

Which have less mature themes than sonic do

[modest parcel]

!

[still epoch]

Yet the appeal for all ages is STRONG

Pokemon is a series for everyone and it embraces that Hard

[lunar trench]

Okay question

Like legit

[still epoch]

it never alienates kids or adults

[lunar trench]

How is that not the case with games too

Like, you are always

[autumn yacht]

uhhh i simply don't care about pokemon's gameplay that's all

[lunar trench]

Playing someone who is between 12 and 15

[still epoch]

Is not about what you care

[wide portal]

I thought they were always 10

[still epoch]

Is about the fact that adults play it

[dusty osprey]

Most pokemon protags hover around 10-12

[still epoch]

And its everywhere in marketing

[lunar trench]

Then how can you say that the anime is the best since you haven't experienced it all

I'm confused

[dusty osprey]

there's like only one 15 year olds iirc and that's the black 1 protags

[autumn yacht]

i like this, i think it's a really good interpretation of pokemon

[lunar trench]

Yeah true mb

[autumn yacht]

i mean i played the games, i just don't vibe with rpgs

[lunar trench]

Well actually, za's protag prolly aren't that young

[still epoch]

But what is wrong with adults enjoying pokemon anyways

This is the topic after all

[autumn yacht]

enjoying isn't the problem

[still epoch]

Adults enjoying quality kids things

[dusty osprey]

black 1 interesting, they are like noticeably older too in how they are designed same thing with a lot of the characters in that game. They would go right back to tweens after though I would like a pokemon game again where the protags were a little older that was cool. I wonder if the new one is like that

[lunar trench]

All of these champions getting mogged by a 10 years old in less than 3 months

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-meme-trying-not-to-laugh-laugh-homeless-gif-9458928528704746136

[autumn yacht]

actively wanting it to mold to a very specific set of fake grown up standards is the problem
and i do actually apologize because it's pretty hypocritical of me, after all i think shadow the hedgehog game is the best

[lunar trench]

I mean sure but the protags always having slightly different ages doesn't matter inbthe slightest to anywone

[still epoch]

It doesnt at all

that doesnt stop a 6 year old to enjoying the game i think just because the protagonists are older

[modest parcel]

Yea but those are for ironic/comedic reasons

[autumn yacht]

errr

[modest parcel]

[autumn yacht]

you think i like it ironically?

[modest parcel]

Well

[wide portal]

damn I genuinely wanted to talk about cast and characters 😭

[modest parcel]

Get aged out of the discussion then

[past matrix]

Me lied

[wide portal]

don’t worry I can play along

uh speaking of 6 year olds I think cream will hopefully have a speaking role maybe hopefully

[modest parcel]

all ages roundhouse kicks you away

[autumn yacht]

yeah sorry guys, i'll try to refrain from doing this cause otherwise i'll start acting like freeze or whoever it is that does this

[dusty osprey]

Damn you said these hands rated e for everyone huh

[wide portal]

this reminded me of that one SpongeBob steven universe parody

[modest parcel]

Damn you guys killed the convo

[still epoch]

Honestly i am not disliking the discussion

I am just curious to know more

[autumn yacht]

you guys can jump me because my thoughts aren't even well argued, like if i was a better typer i would at least word it in a much cleaner fashion

hmm i should practice by praising sonic x

[untold kayak]

I don't think the age of a protagonist really determines the enjoyment of a product

[dusty osprey]

depends on the thing

[modest parcel]

No bad jungle

Bad

[untold kayak]

Like Regular Show has 2 guys of 20 years old aprox and it's one of the most praised shows in Cartoon Network

[dusty osprey]

right, in a story focused thing the age of the protagonist can effect the perspective of the narrative

[modest parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/periodicazo-fifidonia-newspaper-gif-20050186

[dusty osprey]

tha's not happening in pokemon, but in a more narrative based game, yes it could

but also you know if the audience thns the design is lame etc

[autumn yacht]

for pokemon it's specifically because the anime was originally made as to like, tell the adventures of a kid and and his view of the world

[dusty osprey]

That works within its context. Gumball couldn't be mostly about 2 20 year olds, it works its because its mostly focused around kids

[autumn yacht]

and sure you can like, have a spin off show with perspectives from adults and whatnot, but the themes of the show work if ash simply, never ages in the show

[wide portal]

https://tenor.com/view/what-ill-the-puke-sick-gif-20637274

[dusty osprey]

again, depends on the thing and context

[autumn yacht]

the controversial writer once likened it to peter pan and whatnot

[lunar trench]

Except when's he's gonna come back as a cameo in horizon

[autumn yacht]

yes

[dusty osprey]

All that said i don't think sonic has ever tried to punch higher than its tweenie boppr range

[wide portal]

are they gonna finally bite the bullet on that lol

[dusty osprey]

ever

[wide portal]

or is he just gonna be the same age as the current protags

[dusty osprey]

like tween's early teens has always been the target

[lunar trench]

Well actually nvm cuz horizon takes place earlier than we thought iirc

[dusty osprey]

if anything the baby babbo stuff is new

[untold kayak]

I mean Gumball focuses on the entire Watterson family. Sure, it mostly has Gumball but also has episodes where Richard is a prominent figure, Nicole, Anais, even Gumball's grandma got to stand out a few times

[lunar trench]

In its infancy sonic was aimed at young teens

[autumn yacht]

i do think this topic is pretty relevant and has been thought about by various people a lot

i got a meme clip of it hold on

[dusty osprey]

Sure, but those are notable breaks from the which is usually gumbal and darwin

[untold kayak]

There are other shows who barely have kids in them who get the attention of a younger demographic like Samurai Jack, Star Wars the Clone Wars, Johnny Bravo

[dusty osprey]

they are the focus of the show , most of the episodes usually center around them

and what they are doing because that's the context the show was kinda built on

[wide portal]

https://youtu.be/z6Gx7OTn6H0?si=usbMvso02xOMnIy-

https://youtu.be/8ZK8bse3Quo?si=ayJD86Q6hyVu0z98

[autumn yacht]

i can't believe sony paid for an animatic of this to be on the game

many thanks

[wide portal]

Insane payday for something that was on YouTube immediately after

Impressed they had enough restraint to not pull that again with Crossworlds

[dusty osprey]

this is so odd for us to even see this

this was not an ad for us

[autumn yacht]

sony probably ran out of extra cash that year

[wide portal]

It’s a very deliberate commercial

[autumn yacht]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrJeqdKVID8

[wide portal]

It reminds me of that sonic 101 commercial or unstoppable from 2021

[untold kayak]

Yeah and that's my point

children won't really care about the age of a protagonist

as long as the content of the show is compelling enough for them to be engaged

[dusty osprey]

they do if it doesn't work is what 'm saying

or tbh they do if narrative focused

[wide portal]

It demonstrates what the current target audience is directly, and that MO is most likely what every other sonic project falls under

[dusty osprey]

infact actually, theres a brand sonic collaborated with the longest in its entire history that's actually built on kids caring about the ages of the protagonist. Who's protagonists are actually built on the same logic as sonic ones which is why sonic characters are all teenagers

and tha's archie actually

[wide portal]

!

[dusty osprey]

Its protagonists are teenagers for the same reasons sonic's are

[wide portal]

FUCK HES RIGHT

[dusty osprey]

for children

[untold kayak]

Archie... That's another can of worms that I rather not get into

[dusty osprey]

Its teangers made cool , for kids

its the same reason sonic is a teenager

[dusty osprey]

Ages infact do matter to how a concept is presented

[autumn yacht]

if you look at a bunch of action shows and really shows in general you'll notice a trend of aging down over time the characters

[wide portal]

Like okay, I grew up on a show about talking Lego minifigures spinning around while a dumbass 6/10 rock song played as its theme and I thought it was the coolest shit in the world! and they had entire plots about murder and sacrifice and stealing your brother’s love letter to make your mutual love interest fall in love with YOU instead

(this show gets weird man)

[autumn yacht]

what used to be adult heroes became teen heroes (and in the 2000s there were a lot of complaints about how they all act like teens instead of adults) and now finally kids

(sonic isn't part of this because he's always a teen, i refer to uhhh, humans i guess)

[dusty osprey]

The reason that pokemon protagonists are all tweens is because little jimmie is suppsoed to self insert himself going on a cool adventure. The reason that archie and the gang, or sonic and the gang are teens because its so little timmy can self insert and imagine what kind of teenager they would be

its a pretty simple premise, and a well trodden one

[wide portal]

what a lot of people fail to notice is that kids gravitate more towards stuff that presents itself as being dark and edgy because they think being dark and edgy is cool

whether that just be ominous colours or a general off putting vibe

so a show like adventure time having dark shit, that stuff appeals to older audiences sure, but that’s also partially baked into the nature of its BASE target audience

[autumn yacht]

archie betty and veronica are all in high school right?

[dusty osprey]

yes! its why shadow is so dang popular

its why shadow and team dark intentially read older than the rest of the cast

[past matrix]

kids (mostly) do not like to be treated like kids, up front.

[dusty osprey]

they are supposed to be even cooler

[untold kayak]

I personally disagree with this notion on Archie Sonic particularily

because the comic is all over the place in this regard

[dusty osprey]

i don't know how that's litterally how they were made

[autumn yacht]

heroes coding it with the younger characters being easy difficulty and so on lol

and then the chaotix™

[dusty osprey]

i'm not joking this is spoken about in documentaries

they are made to be teens cool for kids

the older comics

[stiff salmon]

https://tenor.com/view/sleepy-dog-sleeping-sleeping-dog-dog-sleeping-tiny-eepy-dog-gif-2292331323183720739

[dusty osprey]

the newer ones, are uh....

riverdale is a different beast

[untold kayak]

it started as a gag comic with people who didn't give much of a care for the material (be either Japanese or Satam, it was basically Adventures) then Penders got in and, gradually, it ran into the polar opposite where it started to dig into adult topics that kids weren't really interested into

This on Archie Sonic specifically

[dusty osprey]

yep I forget yeah heroes had difficulty scaling along with it too.

Strange choice

[wide portal]

i swear to god I wasn’t hallucinating there was an episode in sonic prime where one of the chaos council members said HELL and that fact has been sitting in my fucking mind for two years

I’d double check but I don’t wanna finish my prime rewatch

[dusty osprey]

i get it but jeez

[autumn yacht]

he's a big fan on star trek and superman and that influenced the comics hard

infusing pulpy sci fi and then archie romance and it's uh

i think it's a fun read

[untold kayak]

Too much for my liking

[autumn yacht]

physically impossible

[past matrix]

Or I should say feel like they’re being babied/pandered to and not respected to understand the content put in front of them, Now that’s not to say that mediums that do that are lesser than/kids aren’t capable of enjoying that content if that’s the case, the sonic franchise isn’t free of that in certain aspects as much as other franchises as well. But generally, if you’re attempting to make something of substance and meaning for kids, and sell it on being something grand in scale & emotion, you have to SELL it.

[untold kayak]

Knuckles lore in Archie's is just Superman 💀

[autumn yacht]

when i learned mammoth mogul was just vandal savage i about died

[wide portal]

Nova I think you’re confusing Village talking about, like, the regular Archie with Veronica and Whatshisface, with Archie Sonic

wait

fuck

Archie, Veronica, and Betty, there we go

[autumn yacht]

forgor

[dusty osprey]

i'm not talking about sonic archie

i mean archie archie

like the orange haired kid

who hung out with the punisher for some reason

also same universe as sabrina the teenaged witch

[untold kayak]

Which also had a crossover with Archie Sonic

so it returns to the point where I disagreed with Archie Sonic specifically

but dunno about the rest of Archie's catalog because I haven't checked them

👍

[autumn yacht]

me realizing this is the leaks channel

whatever not like any actual leaks have been posted here in a while

[untold kayak]

Well we don't have much to talk about regarding leaks

since there has been an absense of them

Sonic-wise

[autumn yacht]

oh right tv show

[autumn yacht]

to me, sonic has always done this even at its so called lowest

and this discussion reminds me a bit
a non fan once argued that sonic feels like edgier mario, and then knuckles feels like edgier sonic counterpart, and then shadow is full edge
and i forget if he liked that or not i think he did

[wide portal]

Not a wholly unfair description

knuckles and shadow were both essentially created to be more dramatic foils to the blue blur, shadow more explicitly than knuckles

[untold kayak]

So, to return to a previous point, and to me

A narrative series doesn't hinge on the idea that the protagonist must be of a certain age in order to be enjoyable by younger demographics. The content, if well handled, will be more than enough to keep them engaged. Lots of shows have children as protagonists, and there isn't anything wrong with that; and lots of other shows have teenagers or adults as protagonists, which isn't wrong for them either.

Ultimately, what a narrative has going for is what makes or breaks the enjoyment of a show,

[autumn yacht]

i think contextually he read the sonic universe comics of knuckles vs shadow and thought about the concept being humorous in that regard

oh i guess worded it very badly, many argue the pokemon anime is best if the characters age past kid stage and we get to see their life stories and whatnot
and to me it being an endless summer of a 10 year old actually stands out more and feels cooler
i don't know yu gi oh i'm sure time passes there and everyone is happier about it, whatever works works

[modest parcel]

Yu gi oh mentioned; Nova exposition dump incoming

[dusty osprey]

It depends on what the narrative is going for and if the characters are too old they can be unrelatable to younger audiences

this is a thing tha's kinda been proven actually

[autumn yacht]

all i know is that 4kids actually won the lawsuit and died right after

oh wait

i know this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp4fxe75810

[untold kayak]

It varies between series

Og, ZeXal, ARC-V and VRAINS have static ages for their protagonists

GX and 5D's are the ones whose protagonists grow as the series goes

Yusei being the only one who is an adult from the getgo

[dusty osprey]

There is a range where kids are willing to engage and if you write characters outside of that range, unless it has specific context they could become less engaged. And sometimes, if you write the same character just younger kids will litterally factually just be more invested because there's a kid version

its why robin and the TT has been more popular, litterally forever than the justice league in sales

i don't mean the cartoons, i mean even back in the 80's

its not a requrement, but having them be relatable in some capacity helps quite a bit

[autumn yacht]

funny even in transformers once in a while they make the robots feel younger

[dusty osprey]

Yes kids are wlling to engage with shit, but to pretend they do not gravitate towards characters their age or a little bit older is disengenious

there's so many examples of this its kinda nuts

[autumn yacht]

were people saying this?

[modest parcel]

Nova was earlier

[dusty osprey]

it is again why sonic is a teenager

its why princess celestia a thousand year old horse is still a princess

[autumn yacht]

oh yeah @modest parcel you gotta give me some examples cause to me i'm drawing a blank on like
like shadow the hedgehog internally was a "get people who aged out of sonic back into the fold" and to me everything else is a "good for 8 year olds only"

[dusty osprey]

its why miles morales took off and peter in every cartoon starts as a teenager

its why the teen titains are more popular than the justice league

[untold kayak]

I said that I think the age of a protagonist doesn't really determine if an audience enjoys the product

[dusty osprey]

It can!

[untold kayak]

Sure, initially there can be an appeal for an age in a character

[dusty osprey]

Depends on the thing

[modest parcel]

Well Shadow the Hedgehog wasn't really intended to get people who aged out of Sonic, moreso cater to people outside of the demographic to begin with

[dusty osprey]

depends on the thing and context

[modest parcel]

The shooter crowd

[dusty osprey]

its why shounen protagonists are generally children or teens

[modest parcel]

I was just reading an interview with Iizuka that basically said that much

[dusty osprey]

its why ya protags are the same

[autumn yacht]

the AAUK presentation summary said the former, which really shocked me because....who was aging out feeling enticed by shadow 05

[untold kayak]

I mean, I can tell you that the mane six are adults

young ones at that

[dusty osprey]

age isn't just a number. There's lived experiences you can only write for someone who's only been alive for less than two decades

and children relate to that

[dusty osprey]

their human counter parts are litterally teenagers in highschool

when twilight goes over to human land she looks like a teenager

come on dog

"they are adults " you know gosh darn well all them lil girls don't think their' adults especially when all the horses who are adult , adults are coded differently and have authority over them girls

they're meant to be read by the shows primary demographic, as teens

cool teens for kids

Its not a requirement. But kids do like that shit

[modest parcel]

To answer the rest of this though, the way the characters behave definitely befits a series aimed at 8 year olds throughout, but it's moreso the stories surrounding them that tend to punch above their weight

In ways that stories intentionally written towards 8 year olds would never try to attempt

[wide portal]

the mane 6 all own houses and live away from their parents and eventually become teachers at their own school

eqg is a marketing anomaly that threw a wrench into the fabric that is the MLP age rules

[autumn yacht]

i disagree in the sense that i view it as them making essentially an introduction that, while edgier, doesn't necessarily feel against conventions

[untold kayak]

And Rarity has plenty of contacts with industry fashionists

[dusty osprey]

Sonic

I guess tails is an adult because he has a house?

[modest parcel]

I don't think it's a marketing anomaly when the transition to human MCs makes it distinctly obvious that the relatability factor becomes more important 💀

[dusty osprey]

Amy's an adult because she has a house

[wide portal]

bad argument because tails’ whole character is based around him being the kid sidekick

[dusty osprey]

Not that this is a fantasy scenario for children where kids can get houses

[dusty osprey]

amy

[wide portal]

like let’s be real the cmc sure as hell aren’t going to high school in the base universe

[past matrix]

All roads lead back to mlp.

[modest parcel]

It is against conventions in several ways though

[wide portal]

the changes aren’t based in any real 1 to 1 logistics, it’s primarily to make the EQG marketing gimmick work

[past matrix]

Like sonic prime.

[untold kayak]

In the context of MLP:FIM, the Mane Six usually have to deal with more adult-themed issues than those of Sonic & co.

Like RD wants to join the Wonder Bolts, which is akin to going to military school

[modest parcel]

Like lets look at Adventure, the first game to jump headlong into it

[dusty osprey]

Like you describing what is a very basic fantasy scenario whch is character who isn't an adult lives away from their parents because that's cool

hell you described the teen titans

[modest parcel]

Most of the stories follow conventions that most writers would emulate in a kids property no problem

Even Chaos' story isn't exactly unique among cartoons

But something like Gamma?

[dusty osprey]

the only one of them horses that kind of reads like an adult is that for the longest time in the show, she was the only one with a real ass job.

[wide portal]

the point you were making was that the counter to the mane 6 being adults in the base universe is them being teenagers in eqg when the eqg variants explicitly operate in a different lore

[modest parcel]

You straight up would not get Gamma's story executed in the same way from the writing conventions of most kids cartoons

In fact most people would question what specifically is so special about how that story is told to begin with

[dusty osprey]

I'm also suggesting, those horses don't really read like adults either intentionally so , for the audience

whch is why agan, pricess celestia is still a princess even though her ass is a queen

[modest parcel]

But it straight up would not be written the way it was in Adventure if it were handled by cartoon writers following said conventions

SA2 is obvious; just look at how the movie handled it in contrast

[dusty osprey]

yes you would

not most but yes you can get that sort of thing in kids stuff

[modest parcel]

Secret Rings, another game that would not take the same narrative beats

[dusty osprey]

friendly reminder

[untold kayak]

That is the argument of Megaman 2

[dusty osprey]

full metal alchemist was published in a manga magaizine for kids

[modest parcel]

I'm talking about western stories

[dusty osprey]

gamma ain't that complex

[modest parcel]

Not anime

/manga

[dusty osprey]

That's not even true

[modest parcel]

😭

[dusty osprey]

BTAS series for children and explored some wild shi

[autumn yacht]

you would and wouldn't is how i see it

[modest parcel]

Full Metal Alchemist benefits my point bc that's what I'm getting at

[dusty osprey]

JL too

Your assessment isn't even true

[modest parcel]

They still don't cut it

[dusty osprey]

Adventure time exists

steven universe exists

[modest parcel]

Adventure time is valid though

[dusty osprey]

they do

[modest parcel]

That is like

[dusty osprey]

they do you frgot

[modest parcel]

The closest example

[dusty osprey]

but BTAS does cut it

it covers some wild shit

[modest parcel]

Village I need you to hear me when I say this: I'm not talking about darkness of content

[dusty osprey]

batman talks a woman out of a whole ass abusive relationship in that show

[autumn yacht]

it's not that the americans and canadians are boring (but sometimes they are) it just wouldn't be as well known

[wide portal]

out of universe that was a result of some people feeling like queen was too sinister

in universe it’s clearly a cultural difference, I don’t believe any pony monarchies have ever had a “queen” while the hippogriffs and the changelings follow that convention

[dusty osprey]

You are talking about complex topics, and my response is gamma isn't that complex and there are shows that engage with far more complex subject matter for kids

[untold kayak]

Out of Universe, the explanation was because disney made the association of 'queen = evil' so they wished to avoid that lol

[wide portal]

Disney at the scene of the crime again

[dusty osprey]

Gamma's cool

but no

[modest parcel]

My argument is that Gamma if written by the writers you're quoting would not be handled like he is in Adventure; complexity isn't the point, it's the direction taken in his storytelling

[dusty osprey]

Yeah because queen is old

[untold kayak]

No, it's because queen = evil

[dusty osprey]

Yeah because queen i sold

[untold kayak]

They explicitelly pointed it to the evil part of things, not to the old part of things

[dusty osprey]

why do you think the evil queens in them disney movies were depicted as older women

why do you think all the heroines were young

you think that wasn't intentional

[wide portal]

Princess is more youthful in like a subjective sense but Celestia’s age and wisdom is a massive keystone of her character

[untold kayak]

By that logic, Chrysalis would be way older but she's as old as Celestia and Luna

[dusty osprey]

She is meant to meant to be read older by the target audence yes!

[wide portal]

EQG isn’t 1:1 but they do take elements of this into account like making her the principal

[dusty osprey]

because she's evil and old

and Celestia is not evil so they want to her to be read younger

[wide portal]

Even in the spinoff that translates essentially all the ages inaccurately they preserve this element of her being one of the oldest cast members present

[dusty osprey]

These works of fiction does not exist in a void

[wide portal]

One of the first things you learn about celestia is that she’s old

[dusty osprey]

we live ina very sexst world where people made very misogynist pieces of media that played into the idea that a woman's value is in her youth and if you are unmarried and old you must be bad. And there are cartoons to this day influenced by it

[untold kayak]

No, she's a bug queen

she looks like a bug, like all the other changelings (plus she wished to marry Shining Armor and it would be weird to make her old with that criteria)

[dusty osprey]

Yeah, but she's not be meant to be read as old as the evil lady

it doesn't make sense

its silly isn't it

[wide portal]

They don’t depict chrysalis as being any older than celestia

[modest parcel]

About to start a #MyLittlePony subform just to get rid of this discussion

[dusty osprey]

its almost as if based on decades of mysogonist tropes and marketing

Lets make it about sonic actually

[autumn yacht]

on gamma, it's really good
and it's like, slightly for an older demographic than say, i dunno team sonic racing's writing
and one can even say it's something that wouldn't be repeated ever again
but like, as a story, it's still an introduction, the questions it presents i would even say have to be continued in entirely different fiction

[wide portal]

In fact if you count the prolonged shapeshifting as a bratty cadence and her continued immature tendencies in later seasons they arguably skew her a bit younger maturity wise

[dusty osprey]

maybe you'll get me then

Shadow is technically 50 years old

[wide portal]

nuh uh village you’re in my house now

https://tenor.com/view/ace-attorney-von-karma-nuh-uh-men-kissing-gif-11795885676391262934

[dusty osprey]

he is meant to be read as a older teenager

[modest parcel]

He was in stasis!

[wide portal]

this is also incomparable

[dusty osprey]

ok

[modest parcel]

Actually it's in the lack of conclusions to those questions that makes it the opposite

[dusty osprey]

alcuard in symphony of the night is immortal and presumably hundreds of years old

you are meant to read him as 18

This is not unique

its a thing that's done in some much media

why are you even arguing this

[modest parcel]

Gamma won't get a continuation of his story because that's the point, and leaving many details unsaid is specific to the handling

[wide portal]

When you find out that you still got it

[dusty osprey]

that's irrelevant

it doesn't matter what you think of their maturity

what matters is how they are meant to be read by broader audiences

To be blunt, i do not care what you think

my point is these characters are specfically made to be read as an age, to project an image to sell to an audience

[wide portal]

even if you choose to deliberately ignore celestia being thousands of years old, she is still explicitly depicted as being much older than the others

it has nothing to do with “queen” being a aging title that they avoided it, it was a marketing thing spurred on by insecurities about the way her intentions would be read

[dusty osprey]

that's it that's my point

[dusty osprey]

No it was because kids

like come on

what are we doing

i'm not gonna play this game with you i have given you so many examples

Were not doing this

[modest parcel]

Ok then stop

[dusty osprey]

The cartoon when they had the oppertunity to depict them as humans depicted them as adults and then main horses as teens, like we know what the marketing is

[modest parcel]

[autumn yacht]

continued as in, if anyone were interested in the ideas (some of gamma's story has very interesting implications) and would wish to see more of it

[dusty osprey]

At some point you are arguing what you think about these characters vs how they are being marketed And thats fine. That's ok you think stuff about these characters. But my point is simply, there are characters that are made to be young marketed to children and teens because they gravitate towards that

That's not an arguiable point , its a thing that occurs

I have proven that here

[modest parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/stop-stop-stop-plesase-stop-annoying-youre-annoying-gif-3529384

[autumn yacht]

sonic at its best can introduce these topics to children, but (and this isn't really shade) none of us necessarily benefit from that introduction at this point

well i guess i can use sonic frontiers to finally watch uhhh

[modest parcel]

How so though?

[dusty osprey]

if you think something about a character that's fine, that's ok. That's your buisness peace be with you. That's the specificities isn't what i'm speaking onand i feel like it spiraled because we started talking about mlp for like over an hour

jesus christ

[modest parcel]

Like it clearly benefits the kids that consumed it by being able to reflect back on it

[wide portal]

there’s no shot it was for that long

[dusty osprey]

my bad 30 minutes

We talked about mlp for the runtime of an episode of mlp

[wide portal]

what’s the moral of the story

the dear Princess Celestia letter or the journal entry or the cutie map summon back home

[dusty osprey]

Wait no, i know the moral.

Drink water and walk around and sit up properly and remember to eat veggetables.

there we go

actual helpful advice and not my inane ramblings about funny colored horses

[autumn yacht]

i would say it's because we can all already just handle other art that does this but this time deeper™ but that comes off as snobbish
and also i don't even do that myself lol i'm not about to dive into dystopian sci fi or whatever

i dunno how to sound less snobbish about this though

also i once looked at the my little pony movie budget that thing was 20 million dollars or more imagine how much sonic prime costed looool

[modest parcel]

I agree, but I wouldn't argue to rob, say, Superheroes of their ability to explore those directions just because I'm dissatisfied with their attempts

They might not be the depth that those topics deserve, but touching base with them in introductory methods is still super valid

[wide portal]

oh yeah that uh, reminds me

wasn’t it said that Sega wasn’t gonna make any money from Prime

and that its primary existence was strengthening the brand

[modest parcel]

All that budget just to be wasted on peg warmer toys looool

[wide portal]

oh my god what an embarrassment

[dusty osprey]

I don't think prime is an embarassment at all

it was a cartoon for children meant to advertise sonic to them

it was a successful cartoon for children that did that

we are not the demographic

i am content with that

[autumn yacht]

see i don't have an issue with creatives doing this so long as they actually do it decently (james gunn does it well enough, his limit is far higher than it appears to be too in terms of depth) (where as marvel is dumb as rocks it borders on harmful)
i just, a few years ago had this realization that to me it feels strange for consumers to actively want this for their childhood favorites, especially in the realm of advocating for what is often just, mature but not too mature

[modest parcel]

I think viewing it this way is a bit too skewed when most of the vocal Sonic fandom at this point is composed of a new generation of fans younger than adult more often than not, and they are the ones advocating it

I'd get it if it were a bunch of 40 year olds shouting at the clouds but for the most part it's teens wanting the series with teen elements to be prioritized again

[dusty osprey]

I would argue that james gun is also on the dumb harmful side. TBH.

Superman is... a film

[autumn yacht]

i don't disagree tbh, i get some negative vibes from his movies at times

[modest parcel]

Which is an improvement over the actual case of 40 year olds shouting at the clouds that Sonic should be made for kids (read: their classic Sonic era) exclusively again

[dusty osprey]

hey fair enough

i wont argue that, that is an improvement

[autumn yacht]

see even as teens it feels a bit strange, like yeah it is true that the teen show catalog is just......(a bunch of boring direct to dvd warner bros stuff is all i can think of i tried to find examples)
but i think 17 year old sonic fans would be much happier finding something more fitting for their age
coming from someone who thinks shadow the hedgehog is well written, i really don't care if the series is never unorthodox again either, it could be sonic boom forever and i think that alone is still intelligent

i largely think that time has passed due to changing trends alone

[autumn yacht]

satam fans must be a dying breed

[modest parcel]

They would/can be happier, but unfortunately like most hyperfixations, some people simply get way more enjoyment out of their childhood favorites than anything else lol

[autumn yacht]

i see this everywhere and if anything i think sonic fandom is actually just a bit more healthy about it than others

[modest parcel]

See this is where I come in with actual complaints beyond what I want as a fan in their 20s though

Because I look at how someone like Shadow is handled, and I see the expectations that the creators want out of him, and the conflict that happens in the wake of wanting to ignore or abandon that just feels ridiculous

[autumn yacht]

sorry you'll have to give an example again cause i keep forgetting what you mean by that for shadow

no really sorry i just keep forgetting despite finding it very interesting

[autumn yacht]

(they got nothing)

[modest parcel]

I mean I don't really have examples that can be trotted out to encompass the situation as a whole, it's just the general desire to reshape those past narratives in different, less "unorthodox" ways that conform to what the writers desire out of the initial narrative, paired alongside the desire to reshape him in the modern era to standards that are desired to make him a "good" character, versus the way those stories were originally penned and how something like the Shadow Gens manga was written in spite of that in the year 2024 like nothing changed

[autumn yacht]

oh yeah i get it

heck i was about to say i view shadow generations as trying to punch above its weight but ultimately not doing it well

[modest parcel]

I might not have liked how the Shadow Gens manga handled its overaching narrative but the fact that they had no qualms with retelling the entirity of the ARK raid shows that the desire isn't exclusive to some weirdo Sonic Team devs

[autumn yacht]

and a part of that is simply the context of the video game but a larger part is simply how to me it doesn't address things well and makes even the english script of 05 come off as introspective

i see small hints of it in dark beginnings but i don't like that much either

[modest parcel]

Dark Beginnings succeeds better than Shadow Gens because it shapes it's own narrative that has less to do with the original context, so it's not a rough retelling overall and attempts/succeeds at delivering it's own narrative beats

[autumn yacht]

i say it doesn't but largely i just didn't vibe with the amv at the end lol
i know plenty of people love it though

[modest parcel]

Overall Shadow is the character that had the most unspoken complexity that serviced those desires for storytelling that punched above it's weight class, and in return for that, only seems to comes across as unnecessary to most people who viewed his character as being better for having a concluded story arc that firmly resolves all of his issues

[untold kayak]

And the lesson of today is

Fuck Equestria Girls

[autumn yacht]

https://tenor.com/view/shocked-cat-gif-10010192375921110151

[forest fractal]

Oh I thought it’s fuck SEGA for being cowards

[autumn yacht]

yeah why did the gun soldier not point his gun

sega cowards

[untold kayak]

(even though I got an autograph of Ashleigh Ball for it when I watched the first movie)

[autumn yacht]

adventure 2 shadow fans don't like shadow moment

[forest fractal]

We need to have the obligatory good guy soldier to show that NOT ALL people in the military are bad people

[modest parcel]

Many Adventure 2 Shadow fans say that Movie Shadow is the best Shadow now

[forest fractal]

Oooough

[modest parcel]

So they were never Adventure 2 Shadow fans

[untold kayak]

I personally don't care for the gun

[forest fractal]

I need to jump off a building

[untold kayak]

I do think it kinda retracted from the point of Maria's death

[modest parcel]

What the

[untold kayak]

Not so much in the narrative sense but more so in a 'focus' in the sense of the word

[autumn yacht]

https://vxtwitter.com/Miexriir/status/1255891751748812800

Michal Shafrir (@Miexriir)

When I was a kid, Shadow the Hedgehog (2005) made me cry because I shot an NPC and heard another soldier cry out “THEY GOT BOB!!” It was so humanizing.. a reminder this devastating loss would be mourned.. I felt so guilty

then I realized the clip is used repeatedly every level

▶ Play video

vxTwitter / fixvx · Apr 30, 2020, 4:08 PM

[modest parcel]

THEY GOT BOB!!!!

Ok when the game gets redubbed that line gotta go

[autumn yacht]

WHAT

IT STAYS

[modest parcel]

SEEEEE

Smh smh

Not very original script of you

https://tenor.com/view/notveryjollyofyou-jolly-woke-not-very-jolly-of-you-not-very-woke-of-you-gif-2206215643775530239

[autumn yacht]

close enough is close enough

[forest fractal]

NOT BOB GUNSOLDIER WADES BEST FRIEND FROM THE MILITARY THAT HE GOES FISHING WITH

[modest parcel]

I started watching a video of a shadow rewrite and one of their first suggestions in terms of "original changes" was just stuff that the JP script already did lmao

[forest fractal]

HE WAS TWO DAYS FROM RETIREMENT GODAMMIT

[autumn yacht]

i'm ded

[forest fractal]

When the English script is so botched that nobody realized the actual story of the game

Localization ain’t easy but ooof does it get me PENISED

[autumn yacht]

but no this is so important, even though it was very much shock value™

look at the hatred

[modest parcel]

My thing is I just want people to imagine an alternate timeline where SA2 had the movie's plot and the movie had SA2's plot

[untold kayak]

Like I feel showing the gun on itself just made Maria's death lose focus in terms that it happened due to the whole context of Project Shadow and such.

Like sa2 got the same spot without showing the gun, so that was one of those times where showing (alluding to our conversation of the show don't tell) was not necessary

[forest fractal]

Should’ve also added Maria falling from the recoil

[untold kayak]

Which lead to most fans ask the death be done by the gun on itself rather than the context around it within the Sonic 3 debates

[modest parcel]

I can get it from a pacing sense but in the context of a disparate memory, it doesn't really matter

[autumn yacht]

praying for the e3 build to be safe and for it to have the cutscene

[modest parcel]

Since he doesn't even know who she is there

On top of that it solidified SA2's original direction for the GUN invasion

As opposed to all other media that did everything they could to avoid it

[untold kayak]

But again, Shadow also had a disparate memory in sa2 (in the form of Gerald manipulating his memory). You really didn't need to show the gun for it.

Idk, it feels like a shock value moment but it really only muddles a bit the point of the ARK raid

by making it look more important than it actually is

[modest parcel]

It doesn't 😭

[autumn yacht]

cinema

[modest parcel]

Cinema is when pngs

[forest fractal]

It’s giving YOOO THIS ANIMATION IS SO PEAK and it’s only an image

[autumn yacht]

loool

[modest parcel]

Maria's CGI scene of getting shot isn't even crazy for the game; not sure why it's that big a topic

It's ShTH, the game where you go around shooting everything

[autumn yacht]

i dunno why it's a meme actually

[modest parcel]

"Oh no why'd they show that" they say as they cover the screen

[forest fractal]

The first sound you hear when playing the game is a gun shot

[autumn yacht]

shadow holding the same gun model is also cinema (reused model)

[forest fractal]

When you boot up the menu BOOM GUN SHOT

BANG BANG TYPE SHIT

[autumn yacht]

that youtube comment where someone said the menu gunshots are shadow having flashbacks to maria being shot had me dying

[forest fractal]

It could be the intent but like damn what’s with all the reloading when selecting shit

[humble drum]

Shidow

[modest parcel]

You misspelled chadow

[humble drum]

No you misspelled assdow

[autumn yacht]

gun soldier reloading /s

[modest parcel]

Returning to this though, I wonder if Shadow could live on as basically a Knuckles 2.0 in terms of impact

Like even removing Gerald and his goofy ass for full benefit of the doubt

Give fans room to actually shed tears for Shadow's actions instead

[autumn yacht]

is 06 an example?

[forest fractal]

I’d start the Rumbling if that comes to pass

[humble drum]

Stinky

[modest parcel]

An example of?

Oh punching above it's weight?

It definitely is imo but its execution gives it all the haters in the world

[autumn yacht]

no like as knuckles 2

[forest fractal]

06 still killing everyone’s grandmas

[autumn yacht]

like with shadow's story in that game

06 is perfect vibes though

[modest parcel]

I’d say it’d still work with movie shadow ngl

[autumn yacht]

man some of this makes movie shadow sound like a super nerf lol

[modest parcel]

You still haven’t watched it?

https://tenor.com/view/sonic-takashi-iizuka-sonic-central-sonic-the-hedgehog-iizuka-gif-17470781434628249105

[forest fractal]

Good

Keep it up

[untold kayak]

Hopefully

[autumn yacht]

https://tenor.com/view/uni-cute-cat-silly-tuxedo-cat-unico-gif-1696378561949539858

[untold kayak]

I doubt they don't want to capitalize on Shadow

[autumn yacht]

lol i wonder if deep down i just had zero interest thinking it would be lamer

[modest parcel]

This is the story that people say is better than SA2

You must watch it

Fulfill your sa2 haterdom….

[untold kayak]

For me, they're around equal to my eyes

[autumn yacht]

but but i like adventure 2

[modest parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/komaru-komaru-cat-cat-eyes-emoji-eyes-emoji-meme-mugimeshi-gif-17542565321648643365

[untold kayak]

Still better than the X adaptation of sa2 jsjsjs

[autumn yacht]

whaaaaa

[untold kayak]

/silly

[autumn yacht]

i really want to know what maekawa cut from adventure 2

black knight i take a guess at more characters and really more of merlina, for adventure 2 i got nothing

someone leak it

[untold kayak]

I suppose the soldier subplot (?

[autumn yacht]

that one feels like made for x

[modest parcel]

The submarine level where sonic gains a morality route

[autumn yacht]

ok what is that

people joke about that a lot and it feels like a fever dream

[modest parcel]

Crash the sub or save the sub iirc

[autumn yacht]

man maybe he did influence 05

[modest parcel]

The real question is what was cut from secret rings

Since half the game was changed due to the director

[untold kayak]

That's a good question

[autumn yacht]

brooo what even

[untold kayak]

There isn't much documentation on what was changed

[autumn yacht]

like when i look at game development known info i go "oh you can feel this change with this context now"

and then for sonic it's like wait what

what you mean sonic 2's like 20 other stages were connected via time travel

[modest parcel]

[untold kayak]

Such a shame the content had to be cut

whatever that was

[autumn yacht]

and yeah got nothing here uhhh

[untold kayak]

I do wonder what would happen if Secret Rings came out today

I doubt the game would be well received if Mario Kart World is any indication

[autumn yacht]

kishimoto would instead be inspired by a tesla roadster instead of a dodge viper for darkspine sonic

[untold kayak]

[humble drum]

will do

[modest parcel]

I'm banning you from Pumpkin Hill

[humble drum]

nuh uh

that is the one good part

[modest parcel]

It's funny how this change happened even on the Japanese side of things, but tbh I don't think it's a bad change

[untold kayak]

I would've have liked to see more of this girl Caliburn idea to see if it was good or not the change

As of now, to me, its a mere curiosity

[autumn yacht]

yeah i think it's fine really

[untold kayak]

Yeah basically

[forest fractal]

People would hate Caliburn if they were a girl

[untold kayak]

It would depend of the writing

people like Sharha and Merlina

though I would not discard that possibility entirely