Sonic Leaks, Rumours & Speculation

[glossy sphinx]

...

wrong message

concept c sounds fun asf

oh wait nvm he only sent the second image.

yeah the story description sounds buns.

[wide portal]

“find out the shocking true fate about the ancients” yawn

[grand cobalt]

isn’t

isn’t that just the end of frontiers

we know their fate they fucking died!!

[glossy sphinx]

kinda

[coarse ferry]

I am more hoping eggman actually embraced using ancient technologies instead of going like "one and done" 💀

[glossy sphinx]

isn't there still stuff like

the master emerald

[wide portal]

ME is ambiguous

[glossy sphinx]

angel island

I don't really remember

[wide portal]

but the fact that it was on earth before the chaos emeralds seems to indicate to me that it’s lore is not associated with them directly

[coarse ferry]

ME needs to have Knuckles as an important role because that's his literal entire purpose

[modest parcel]

I've been reading the chat that the Doi screenshots are from (and msgs I missed in this chat) and it's so funny

Nearly everyone in here latched on to cyberspace as if he was referring to that being the direction of the next game

And not the quality

💀

Like I thought that was one of the few details he did list but no he's just being snide about Sonic Team's competence thru and thru

[glossy sphinx]

I don't even care about this mysterious side game anymore I was waiting for almost a month to maybe hear something, just a little glimpse about a frontiers just to be fucking hoed by this random shit

whatever happens happens

[glossy sphinx]

true!

[wide portal]

central next week….its the stream on friday!!

#trusttheprocess

[glossy sphinx]

it's Friday right now

[past matrix]

That's what I felt with the initial screencaps of what he was listing; so I guess that checks out.

If you're tone is off, I'm far more inclined to not want to believe anything you say.

More so when it's so thin.

[modest parcel]

I mean this doesn't impact anything about the believability

Again, the legit leaks for Frontiers were from Sonic Team haters

[past matrix]

Oh yeah I know, that's more so an off the record bit of my personal opinion.

[modest parcel]

This is more about the fact that he never specifically said that the game played like cyberspace

Just using that as an indictment against the quality

"If you found any inspiration at all from Frontiers"

"Cyberspace especially"

Bc the person was asking if they (the questioner) would end up liking the game in comparison to his opinion

[wide portal]

gotta say tho

very happy this seems to be contained in the ShitIC corner and this discord

[glossy sphinx]

the thing is this guy was talking to specific people that he was already familiar with, not randoms or anything so I can understand why he's talking like this LMAO. Not like an anonymous leak or something going out to random people

[wide portal]

this would be a nightmare and a half on Twitter

[glossy sphinx]

so I doubt he cared about tone

[glossy sphinx]

veryyyy true

[modest parcel]

Yea they all already knew that he hates Sonic Team's output

[past matrix]

Oh Yeah..

SiC..

[wide portal]

(God’s looking me dead in the eye rn and threatening to possess somebody in that discord to make a really stupid choice)

[past matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/treynotfunny-shocked-oh-nahhhh-gif-26719501

[glossy sphinx]

I'm pretty sure he was enveloped in the moment just trying to inform his peeps, his actions were still very interesting tho. I'm very glad that this whole thing isn't spreading out

messy asf

💀

[past matrix]

In all seriousness; in another instance we all could've just been in the dark about it/not have that information presented to us in that fashion.

Or more specifically me; who just picks up on certain wordings and tones and see patterns from past individuals that just set me off wrong.
So that's probably a personal online battle for me there, of trying not to generalize individuals.

[glossy sphinx]

you guys were talking about the nerd lingo or whatever to make this shit sound more believable but

they're sic members

c'mon LOL

[glossy sphinx]

yeahhh

we can all thank Freeze for presenting this information to us!!

https://tenor.com/view/evangelion-parabéns-gif-18160950

[glossy sphinx]

it sparked some very productive conversations here

this chat hasn't been active in a long while

[wide portal]

I need this next leak season to actually be substantial to distract me from the existential horror of my inevitable job hunt in 2026

[past matrix]

Not since that "frontiers 2 audio & render leaks" thing at least.

Which I fell victim to.

[wide portal]

I’m going into the freelance animation industry boys! haha (HELP ME)

[glossy sphinx]

good luck

[autumn yacht]

so not a single legit leak lol

[modest parcel]

Alright I caught up to this chat and the "DoiFrontiers" leak stuff

[modest parcel]

It's kinda crazy that the MKII stuff was glossed over till today bc

Looking over the chat over there

It makes up about 90% of the messages after the fact 😭

[glossy sphinx]

yep

doi was way more focused on persona

despite playtesting frontiers

not frontiers

wtf am I talking about

the mystery game

[modest parcel]

The not frontiers

[glossy sphinx]

and the mk2 stuff

[glossy sphinx]

thanks.

[modest parcel]

The only details he revealed about the game was the no-duh situation of "frontiers 2 never existed"

"They love to innovate"

And then lambasting the game feel with the Frontiers/Cyberspace comparisons and alluding to losing Shadow Gens improvements allegedly

[glossy sphinx]

that's a word choice right there

[modest parcel]

Might have butchered it even more hold on

[glossy sphinx]

W recap

it was clear he didn't care much about the sonic game

[modest parcel]

The thing that is the most unbelievable to me

Outside of asking Iizuka about Rouge and getting conversation out of it

Is Iizuka talking about Sonic Team's internal workings fairly easily

And... something Mecha Sonic related being directly visible? But also locked away in ways that will never see the light of day?

[autumn yacht]

at least it accidently acknowledges iizuka's role in rouge's creation

[modest parcel]

Also Iizuka apparently mentioning Trails in a way that he can't say anymore on

With Doi already being a massive Trails fan

"blueprint was visible"

[autumn yacht]

so why is this a discussion again, because this is a known member in the community

[modest parcel]

Man they're not going to have Mecha Sonic concept stuff available like that 😭

[modest parcel]

Well it got brought up in the channel earlier as the source of a leak, but not many people actually read the chat it originated from

So there are a lot of assumptions that were made that were incorrect

[autumn yacht]

yeah what makes people take it seriously

[modest parcel]

But there's also just so much that hasn't been adressed

[modest parcel]

That the user claiming to have playtested is a mod for Sonic Fan Games HQ and hosts SAGE 2025

[smoky summit]

Can't say what he said about Trails 💀

Yeah sure bud

[modest parcel]

It's giving Zippo

[smoky summit]

Does Iizuka even have time to play these games they're hella long

[torn trench]

But he spills his guts about Sonic

[cunning echo]

idk, Iizuka was at gamescom so I doubt he really crunched to be on time for gamescom

[smoky summit]

And so convenient that doi happens to like them too despite them being fairly niche games even in Japan

[loud zinc]

He’s a businessman

[autumn yacht]

oh shoot

quick what does leak squad say on iizuka's thoughts on black knight

[autumn yacht]

maybe he's on drugs

[smoky summit]

What does that even mean anyways lmao

[modest parcel]

so much MKII discussion

[cunning echo]

Dex

tbh

[autumn yacht]

he's not promoting his blog though

hmm

[cunning echo]

Think about something

[autumn yacht]

what could be the motiviation

[smoky summit]

Like who gives a fuck about mecha sonic lmaooi 😭

[still epoch]

Its giving zippo

[cunning echo]

why would they use mkII

[cunning echo]

lmfao

yeah exactly tobe

[smoky summit]

They talking about this like it's pre-Shadow Gens Shadow or something

[autumn yacht]

i'm going with drugs

[cunning echo]

mecha sonic already had its lead in a comic

[modest parcel]

Apparently a lot of SiC members care about him

[cunning echo]

I doubt sonic team is "anal" about mecha sonic

[modest parcel]

A... lot...

[cunning echo]

rather they just dont want to use the mf robot

😭

[glossy sphinx]

the server

[cunning echo]

The specimen in that server are really into classic slop so is mostly that

[coarse ferry]

Same reason no other classic mechs are used again 💀

[autumn yacht]

i like rocket metal does that count

[smoky summit]

And oh so very conveniently he happens to be present in the game lmao

[wide portal]

they were so anal they allowed Daniel Barnes to completely reinvent him and change his status quo

[coarse ferry]

Then again fits in character for eggman too lmao

[wide portal]

lol

[modest parcel]

Not in the game, just whatever it was was "visible"

[smoky summit]

This reminds of https://youtu.be/nfDoml-Db64

[autumn yacht]

did zippo get banned from everything yet

[coarse ferry]

"New successful robot" Done!
"Fails to beat Sonic?" BE GONE!

[smoky summit]

The man who almost faked his way to a Sonic leak

[modest parcel]

Oh don't worry all of this is broken up by them having the occasional Scrapnik Island slander images

And og Mecha glaze

[autumn yacht]

based on.......being a sonic 3 fan?

i'm confused

[wide portal]

oh that explains it

[cunning echo]

yea

[autumn yacht]

like i guess there is the archie comics?

wait but

[coarse ferry]

eh?

[cunning echo]

but like, tobe is right who cares about mecha 😭

[autumn yacht]

what is there to be a fan of?

it's mecha sonic

[modest parcel]

Mecha in Scrapnik is a lameo

Is their opinion

[cunning echo]

Like sure is a classic but you literally have a better version which is METAL sonic

[coarse ferry]

Bruh 💀

[autumn yacht]

talking about sonic's shade of blue makes more sense than this

[cunning echo]

which mind you hasn't been in a game since heroes (ok maybe rivals)

[coarse ferry]

Okay okay what example did they used to compare IDW Mecha

[modest parcel]

OG mecha

[coarse ferry]

well at least it's not smbz lmao

[modest parcel]

Sonic 3 Mecha

[cunning echo]

I suppose the argument is mecha becoming super?

But the reality is that mecha is lame and weak as hell

base knux beat him

[autumn yacht]

with 3 rings!

[coarse ferry]

Yeah people glaze mecha sonic too much

[wide portal]

you know i was one of the many people who fell for that whole audio leak thing when it was spreading around

but i do remember that it got associated with a notes app description that said something VERY specific that for a split second caused me to think “yeah this is bullshit” but the whole thing was so convoluted so I didn’t think too much of it

this is basically the same thing

[modest parcel]

Look at this man 😭

[coarse ferry]

IDW I will say did a perfect job over Mecha Sonic

[modest parcel]

I mean not really but eh

[cunning echo]

LOL

scrapnik in the corner

[autumn yacht]

go post this in their server saying "the best mecha sonic" and turn off notifications https://www.deviantart.com/trunks24/art/mecha-sonic-sally-and-knuckles-266796985

[wide portal]

like “oh actually the mecha sonic I don’t like is non canon and they’re working on a super detailed version that’s gonna pop up in the next game!!!”

[modest parcel]

The former is what is being wishcasted while the latter is not the case

[cunning echo]

mecha before metal sonic...idk man

[modest parcel]

They're dooming about him being locked away now

[autumn yacht]

sage people are weird tbh

[wide portal]

also this is provably false because they adapted mecha sonic from scrapnik into the Minecraft pack

[modest parcel]

No these are just hardcore classic fans

[cunning echo]

like what would be the reason for mecha out of all other eggman robots to comeback, heck silver sonic

[smoky summit]

It just feels dubious to me like

What are odds?

[coarse ferry]

Can I at least have metal knuckles and tails doll back instead?

[autumn yacht]

wait i gotta check this out

[coarse ferry]

Far more viable to use than Mecha Sonic

[smoky summit]

That this guy's favorite niche ass character from 30 years ago just happens to be there in some way

[modest parcel]

Apparently high enough for SEGA to be "aware" of the server 😭

[wide portal]

they’re doing tricks on it

[autumn yacht]

goes hard tbh

[wide portal]

they’re doing the spin dash and the cyloop

[modest parcel]

The glaze is so crazy

[wide portal]

theyre doing the boost on it

[smoky summit]

I mean ok? They know about TailsChannel server too whats that got to do with anything?

[wide portal]

(do not tell them this they’ll go into cardiac arrest)

[modest parcel]

I'm saying they likely don't lol

SiC is way too niche

[wide portal]

among

ong*

[smoky summit]

I thought you meant something else

Like how in the 2010s Sonicretro was being placed as this authority on fan opinion

[autumn yacht]

i don't get it man

it's mecha sonic

[modest parcel]

You guys thought this was a ploy for anti-Frontiers agenda posting

No no

[autumn yacht]

this is like being up in arms about chocola the chao for not being happy enough in his next appearance

[modest parcel]

This was a ploy for modern Mecha agenda posting

[smoky summit]

But they love him

[wide portal]

this entire convoluted conspiracy that just so happens to conform with starman’s desires is the BIGGEST red flag i have EVER seen

[autumn yacht]

HE'S NOT CHOCOLATE ENOUGH

am i doing it right

[dawn pumice]

I’m just so confused on the Mecha stuff

[smoky summit]

At least Zippo tried to conform to the desires of people around him 😭

[still epoch]

This is so insane

[modest parcel]

He's a lameo

They don't like him

[smoky summit]

Who? Sega or SiC lol

[dawn pumice]

This just reads to me that they ditched the open zone, to focus on the worst parts of cyberspace, then goes on a MK II rant

[modest parcel]

It'd be like if someone took Metal Sonic and did what everyone hopes they'd do with him and I went off like a crazed lunatic about it

I don't care abt Mecha comparatively so him being redeemed now is just "eh" 💀

But

[dawn pumice]

Also how would someone who was a playtester know this stuff 💀

[modest parcel]

They care

They care a lot

[autumn yacht]

maybe we would do that if sega made a metal shadow tbh

[wide portal]

Mecha didn’t even have a character to ruin in 3K

[cunning echo]

did they even play sonic 3?

[wide portal]

who would care this m—

[cunning echo]

Bro mk2 died

[modest parcel]

Hype and aura does all the heavy lifting round here

[cunning echo]

destroyed

into pieces

exploded

😭

[wide portal]

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-try-not-to-laugh-gif-7682731162751353849

[modest parcel]

Now he likes flowers

[autumn yacht]

i do miss egg robo tbh literally appears here and there still

[wide portal]

wait a minute

[coarse ferry]

Only way mecha mk2 ever comes back if eggman goes ahead and repair but.....

Eggman doesn't care lmao

[wide portal]

classic sonic fans

[autumn yacht]

can we get an actual leak actually nah this is funnier

[wide portal]

Good for him

Flowers rule

[coarse ferry]

Like this is basically ANY machine eggman has ever created. Outside of metal sonic, he just either leaves them behind or just being destroyed

[autumn yacht]

ian flynn

[modest parcel]

Plug, this is your calling

Create the anti-SiC

[autumn yacht]

what does sic stand for anyway

[modest parcel]

South Island Campus

[autumn yacht]

they ain't learning why campus

[coarse ferry]

Altho it's also eggman's downside because he would have have a much stronger army if he actually gives them a chance but......

He rather keep just metal sonic and tell the rest to fuck all lmao

[modest parcel]

Uuuuuuuh lets say they're pretentious abt the things they believe

[dawn pumice]

So what we callin this leak?

[modest parcel]

And have things to teach 💀

[dawn pumice]

The MK II leak?

[autumn yacht]

do they like shadow the hedgehog 2005

[wide portal]

if I ever did anything like that (no fucking way) i guess id call it

uhhh

Station Square University

[modest parcel]

Yes

[modest parcel]

Idk probably not

Or maybe so

I can't tell

[wide portal]

sonic team USA title, so no

[autumn yacht]

https://tenor.com/view/shadow-the-hedgehog-i-am-all-of-me-i-am-i'm-all-of-me-all-of-me-i-am-gif-2224014216767340809

[cunning echo]

ready for the Starfall Island Campus

[modest parcel]

Nah they rep Iizuka hard in there

[autumn yacht]

well ok do they like heroes lol

[cunning echo]

they rarely like anything past sonic 3 really

[modest parcel]

still talking about mecha btw

Still abt mecha 💀

[wide portal]

WHAT FUCKING SPRITE

IS THIS NOT A 3D GAME

[modest parcel]

Well

You know how Mauro was talking about the stuff about concept art

I think it's because Mecha doesn't have concept art?

And as a result they're all crazed to see how the mechanics actually work

Like as an actual machine

[dawn pumice]

I’m just

[wide portal]

fucking bruh

[dawn pumice]

So confused why they’re infatuated with MK II this much

[wide portal]

I might aneurism

[still epoch]

Ur 15 thats too soon

[modest parcel]

This is some fans nirvana

[wide portal]

IM EIGHTEEN

[modest parcel]

Almost within grasp

[still epoch]

[wide portal]

oh my god

[modest parcel]

STILL TALKING ABOUT MECHA

[wide portal]

the shadunfraude

it’s gonna be beautiful

[dawn pumice]

Their branded versions look different????

I’m like

So confused

[wide portal]

Delusional

[dawn pumice]

So sega is scared to show concept art of these characters?

[cunning echo]

i dont get whats your point now dex 😭

[modest parcel]

Scrapnik Island version is the "branded" version

In their eyes

[cunning echo]

are they talking about mecha sonic not having concept art for sonic 3?

[modest parcel]

Yea

[autumn yacht]

so wait how do they praise iizuka then

[modest parcel]

I assume so at least

[cunning echo]

💀

[modest parcel]

Because Mauro was talking about the same thing

[autumn yacht]

i think waymint should jump all of these people

[autumn yacht]

why are they using names like that though

ain't that from archie

[wide portal]

I might actually lose my mind

[cunning echo]

eh

mecha sonic design is pretty clear even as a sprite form idk

[grand cobalt]

PERSONA 6 WILL SAVE US

[cunning echo]

you can pretty much tell how bro is built

[autumn yacht]

do we know if this design was actually made independently of metal sonic

i've always wondered that

[modest parcel]

mauro don't look now but I think they might be doing all this because of scrapnik island being the first instance of the design being brought back, without referencing any original concept arts/"blueprints" 😭

[autumn yacht]

delusional sonic fans will always be a constant

https://tenor.com/view/bbc-fish-jumping-gif-3529487

[wide portal]

it’s funny because sonic team could bring back mecha in an official capacity but they would 100% just use the existing scrapnik model sheet since that’s the newest one

and since Flynn’s their head writer he can deal with whatever plot holes come about

[smoky summit]

This is just too reminiscent of bullshit leaker speak. They all talk this way

[modest parcel]

They'd get pissed as hell if he showed up for another classic game but used the newer model sheet I bet

[autumn yacht]

good

[cunning echo]

they would probably add a few details here and there but its base should basically be the same

[autumn yacht]

but i mean does metal sonic even take from the original these days?

like isn't it just the generations version which is based off the original

[wide portal]

the whole mecha thing is insane because they could’ve just said “MKII is back with the scrapnik design” and it’d be weird but it’d also not be such a smoking gun

[rocky leaf]

well yeah but in that case, the concept art does exist- it's right there, it got made for scrapnik lol

[cunning echo]

plus there is lots of sonic concept art that we still havent seen, heck, old shadow concept art we only got to see was when shadow gens released

[modest parcel]

Did you see the twitter thread where he's insisting that everyone's doing damage control for the Mania 2 situation

[wide portal]

instead it’s such an elaborate smoking gun

[autumn yacht]

leak squad moments

[rugged otter]

man they got what I got for Gizoids getting recognition but for Mecha

[modest parcel]

In spite of the Hunter Bridges tweet posted right below it 😭

[wide portal]

it’s so palpably bullshit

[smoky summit]

"this was something known for a while" omfg this is literally Zippo speak are we serious rn

[rugged otter]

i misread this as leak squid

https://tenor.com/view/sonic-frontiers-squid-gif-27279391

[autumn yacht]

i should call the sonic leakers™ leak squid tbh

[modest parcel]

That's not what they want... they seek el dorado.... 😔

[rugged otter]

true

[autumn yacht]

https://tenor.com/view/gatto-cope-coping-cat-lady-catto-gif-21434659

[rugged otter]

folks getting caught in the leak squad antics is like when you just run about and then suddenly SQUID

and then you run on their path that lasts forever...

[autumn yacht]

so when will these guys betray each other

[rocky leaf]

https://youtu.be/LWn2Iq3iYR0

[smoky summit]

No I don't follow this person's tweets

[rugged otter]

w-wh

what lmfaooo

[rocky leaf]

https://youtu.be/8Ejtct8pNME perhaps better fitting

[wide portal]

lowkey I might have them blocked or they blocked me

[smoky summit]

Wait so Dex

[wide portal]

they just seem super obnoxious from the little I’ve seen of them so far tho

[smoky summit]

They saw the scrapnik concept art??

And thought it was new?

[modest parcel]

No

[autumn yacht]

so has dusk golem ever jumped into the sonic leak squad train

[modest parcel]

They claim to have seen concept art from before scrapnik

The original texts

[rugged otter]

like damage control as in "erm ST and mania devs hated eachother but now they're covering it up with hugs!!!"

[modest parcel]

The ten commandments

[rugged otter]

?

[modest parcel]

Of Mecha Sonic

[modest parcel]

But he's being coy about it

[rocky leaf]

should be noted, for all I know, sega did find the original concepts, or made new ones; I just know that back during scrapnik they were like "we got nothin'" so nat had to make it based on the sprite lol

[modest parcel]

Also whatever the "original color" was

[smoky summit]

Like the ooooonly possible way I can see this being a thing is if this is tied to some other classic game

[modest parcel]

Yeah but why would they suddenly surface for a random playtest?

For the server/user that already was invested in Mecha Sonic concept art?

[rugged otter]

they are making it sound like some holy grail of sonic leaks 😭

[rocky leaf]

but like, TOUMA told me directly on twitter one time for instance that speedy's mech suit design doesn't have concept art- it was made directly as a sprite (or at least that seems to be the case, allowing for translation mishaps)

and I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true for mecha sonic mk 2 etc

[wide portal]

who do you believe? a team of freelancers that actively get notes, assistance, and style guides from sonic team for the comic or a guy who says he playtested the new game

[modest parcel]

That he conveniently cannot tell anyone about now

[rocky leaf]

hell, even for mk 3

[autumn yacht]

so like they shouldn't even be calling is mk 2 though

[rocky leaf]

anyway I was tabbed out so I don't know what the context is of what you guys are talking about now, just adding a bit more to what I said lol

[autumn yacht]

cause isn't that ian flynn's addition

[smoky summit]

Mk3 concept art is mecha godzilla

[wide portal]

wdym

[smoky summit]

Dex is reading the whole SiC chat

[rocky leaf]

it's current canon

[modest parcel]

Yeah that's what half of the server was speculating about, that's why he insisted that the blueprints exist now

[smoky summit]

And its all about mk2

Lmao

[rocky leaf]

wasn't in archie, where mk1 was "silver sonic"

[smoky summit]

They are obsessed with this robot

[modest parcel]

Yes 😭

[wide portal]

jesus fucking christ

[rugged otter]

that's like if i was at a playtest and went "dude they are cooking some mad gizoid lore and gemerl might play a big role also iizuka saw funni shitpost"

[wide portal]

I’d feel bad for the inevitable if it wasn’t so funny

[autumn yacht]

like isn't the title mecha sonic mk 2 from ian flynn?

[rocky leaf]

I think it was a sega thing, not ian, but regardless of who originated it it's what's used by sega now

[wide portal]

idts

[autumn yacht]

if these people are such purists surely they could just i dunno tbh

[rocky leaf]

the sonic 2 mecha is mk 1, the sonic 3 mecha is mk 2, the sonic adventure mecha is mk 3, and the sonic 2 8bit mecha is ignored lol

[autumn yacht]

wow there really isn't any known artwork of the original huh

[rugged otter]

like sure they might unearth some concepts some day, why would this info even be at some random ass playtest

[rocky leaf]

the only official original artwork of any of these is mecha mk 1, which we only got a few years ago, and the one of the sonic 2 8bit one in the manual for that

[rugged otter]

insanity

[modest parcel]

(saying this as if we're doing Evening Star a disservice somehow)

[wide portal]

tbf if anybody would know if there’s mk2 concept art, it’d be iizuka

[autumn yacht]

i'm really curious on the original names now

[modest parcel]

True

[autumn yacht]

or i guess i imagine it was just a plain mecha sonic for all iterations

[modest parcel]

I just don't see why it'd show up there of all places

[rocky leaf]

eh, not necessarily

[modest parcel]

Iizuka was allegedly flying to and fro across the globe at that point if it's to be believed

[rocky leaf]

metal knuckles' model sheet for instance iirc only got discovered because uekawa kept his work files well organised and archived at home

[wide portal]

that said he’s tapped in enough with IDW that not only did he personally speak with Flynn to hire him he cited his work on the comics as a reason for bringing him onto the games so we’d just be back to square one 😭

[past matrix]

Is this guy Iizuka's mistress or some shit? Why's he answering all your questions

[rocky leaf]

a lot of this old concept art gets easily lost especially in the 90s

[autumn yacht]

yooo i gotta look this up

[rocky leaf]

it's why there was a metal knuckles model sheet but not a tails doll one

[rocky leaf]

it's in the superstars gallery

[rugged otter]

poor tails doll..

[torn trench]

Maybe it just ran away

[rocky leaf]

you'll notice compared to the other model sheets in the gallery it's a lot visually rougher, the line quality, the quick shading in the claws, etc

it's because afaik it's directly from like 96 or whenver they were doing sonic r

[rugged otter]

i should do something related to metal knux

[autumn yacht]

so it's used in superstars but it's the original sonic r art?

[rugged otter]

now that we have had this knowledge for sometime

[rocky leaf]

yeah that's how metal knuckles has always looked

there just weren't good public references of him for years so no one could tell, basically, lol

[autumn yacht]

very cool

shoot i kinda get these crazy sonic fans, no known artwork smh

[rugged otter]

though even though it's very innacurate, there's a kinda charm to the Saturn Metal Knux with the blocky claws
though I guess it's like making fanart of Jam Sonic

[autumn yacht]

me with big foot in sonic adventure 2

[rugged otter]

but man the actual way the head is designed is so cool

the vents on the dreads

[rocky leaf]

but yeah especially with pixel art games, I wouldn't take it for granted there's drawn concept art for anything

[autumn yacht]

wait so does this mean we don't even know who designed the sonic 3 mecha sonic

[rocky leaf]

or if there is, that it's more than a quick doodle

[rocky leaf]

yep

we know who designed mk 1 and that's about it

[autumn yacht]

dang

[rocky leaf]

much like how we don't know who designed the witchkarters etc

[autumn yacht]

i would make something up about iizuka too if i were a crazy purist who wanted mania 2

"he has the art"

https://tenor.com/view/cope-cat-cope-cope-cat-bino-coping-gif-23434064

[rugged otter]

iizuka is hiding the 2nd Sonic in the basement

[rocky leaf]

iizuka draws (if you look in the shadow gens gallery there's a lot of concept art by him) but he's never been the main art guy

so if anything I'd expect hoshino to have anything

[autumn yacht]

i need more shadow the hedgehog concept art

[rocky leaf]

but hoshino works directly with overseeing art stuff, so if sega couldn't find a concept to send idw when mecha mk 2 was in scrapnik, I'd assume it either doesn't exist, was lost to time, or is with someone who's not on sonic team

[smoky summit]

Iizuka mainly does design element drawings

[autumn yacht]

i want to know how on earth they concepted space gadget

[rugged otter]

would love to see if there's any more stuff from earlier in the development of Heroes

especially when they were considering the teams

or levels

[rocky leaf]

different culture with work etc is also part of why this can be hard to look at in a historical sense

[cunning echo]

I really doubt it 😭

[rocky leaf]

remember when that one camelot artist posted warupeach but then took it down? etc

[cunning echo]

most of the time playtesters are in a room with a chair and a monitor in front of them

[rocky leaf]

in the japanese gamedev culture and retro game culture there's a strong habit of "private stuff owned by companies is not to be shown"

[autumn yacht]

the best

[cunning echo]

I really doubt they would hand a concept art randomly

[rocky leaf]

western gamedevs are posting whatever the fuck they feel like about bumkey kong bum bum 91 that they made in a shed in leadsworth

[autumn yacht]

yeah i can't find jack when it comes to that

[cunning echo]

they are there for to test their game not see old concepts

[rugged otter]

it makes some of the old concept art that got unearthed like for Shadow all the more surreal to look back on
like "whoooaaa look at this wacky box of cool things we found and got permissions to show off", like that's prob not common is it

[autumn yacht]

the nice part about the lore team is apparently they do archiving so that's cool

[rocky leaf]

japanese gamedevs will have the doodles indicating how they designed goomba's first cousin in 1983 but will feel obliged to never post it unless explicitly told to

[autumn yacht]

we get to see art that's probably in a box in the storage closet next to shadow gun statue

[smoky summit]

Karasuno had to randomly obliterate her twitter account a couple years back 😭

[rocky leaf]

I remember how it took like two or three years for satoshi okano to even build up the courage to post his sonic work lol

[cunning echo]

remember that one shadow concept art hoshino made that said Shadow was vegeta-like

😭

that shit was cool, altho I cant find it again

[rocky leaf]

let me see if I have ithere

[rugged otter]

hope, somehow, we get more

[rugged otter]

it's so fascinating as hell

[autumn yacht]

oh wait yea there was the eurogamer article with shadow rifle concepts

https://www.eurogamer.net/sega-showcases-shadow-the-hedgehog-design-in-never-before-seen-sketches

there's no text here though that must be stuff posted back then

[smoky summit]

Whenever you feel down, just remember there's more insane concept art like this for ideas that never took form

[modest parcel]

I don't think that was ever credited; it was among a collection of other Shadow concept arts

[wide portal]

Sonic Movie 3

[modest parcel]

We don't know the actual artist that finalized the look

[rocky leaf]

haven't they said it's hoshino a few times

[autumn yacht]

we need leak squad to explain this

[rugged otter]

still such a wild thing to know

[rocky leaf]

sonic wiki has it but divided into two crops for some reason

[prime hearth]

only vaguely related nitpick of the decade here but I wish in stuff like shadow gens you could actually, like
view the artwork full screen instead of in a small section of window lol

[rugged otter]

whole ass different story it could've been and seeing just a small glimpse into that

[modest parcel]

Oh hm

[smoky summit]

Clean shoes

[prime hearth]

why is it like this with no way to zoom in, sega pls I wanna see the art you’re showing me!!

[autumn yacht]

noooo

[rocky leaf]

have people ripped the files

[smoky summit]

Those flying Manta rays are in this concept art too

I wonder if Shadow 05 was gonna be a much more direct follow up from Heroes

Unavoidable tonal whiplash, ofc

[modest parcel]

Dr. Gero-ing Gerald would have been crazy

[autumn yacht]

they had a vision

[smoky summit]

Like damn it's a glimpse at how the story would have unfolded if Black Doom wasn't what they went with

Wait a minute, that's a Shadow Android

Look at the vein-y circuit things

[cunning echo]

oh yeah I think it was this one that said it was vegeta

[rocky leaf]

I mean, the shadow androids had been established in heroes already

[cunning echo]

or maybe it was another one?

[rocky leaf]

(it's the last word in the list)

[smoky summit]

True but he's holding metal's head 😭

[modest parcel]

Or

Or

[cunning echo]

iirc the cocept was shown at a event

[smoky summit]

They were scrubs in shadow 05

[cunning echo]

I think the korean one

[cunning echo]

ah nice

[modest parcel]

Shadow was going to be taken in a Surge direction at that time

[prime hearth]

I thiiiiink so but either way, ideally shouldn’t take file ripping to make em properly visible lol

[modest parcel]

Remember Omega's comments in Heroes

[smoky summit]

Possible too

[rocky leaf]

and yeah they recently showed it at an event and very comedically had the little title thing saying what it was cover the bit saying "bejita" lol

[smoky summit]

The most shocking part about it how they 180'd on what they wanted to do with Gerald lmao

[prime hearth]

(base Sonic Gens had the same issue so I wonder if it’s a consistency thing? idk lol but it blows)

[smoky summit]

From Dr. Gero to a vain father figure trying to repent

[rocky leaf]

there's a geographical angle issue to things and I genuinely think they right now feel more comfortable saying "shadow is based on spawn" etc, american concepts, than "shadow is based on vegeta", which would be seen as ripping off a fellow japanese company, despite the fact it's directly written right there lol

[wide portal]

Insert Tax Evasion joke

[grand cobalt]

plug why are you

nvm

[wide portal]

who’s

[autumn yacht]

japanese

[wide portal]

oh yeah!

[autumn yacht]

english

for some reason

[modest parcel]

Man

[rocky leaf]

anyway complete baseless guess work here but looking at that original dr gero idea for shadow's game

[smoky summit]

Iizuka when he found a western black and red character that predated Shadow

[cunning echo]

there it is lmao

[rocky leaf]

and since we know that shadow th was directly influenced by halo

[smoky summit]

BUT HE PICKED THE WRONG BLACK AND RED CHARACTER

[rocky leaf]

I wonder if it goes to the point that the sheer idea of having the villains be aliens is taken from halo

[cunning echo]

I love the cold hearted part 😭

[rocky leaf]

like, they were going "hmm maybe gerald villain? wait, americans like this halo thing. they fight aliens there, let's do that"

[smoky summit]

Blur studio people were like "hey, Sonic Team, meet Halo!"

[modest parcel]

And thus began Sonic Team's descent into madness (alien obsession)

[autumn yacht]

if aliens aren't in jak 2 then i guess

[wide portal]

a unfortunate condition that lasted from 2005 until…uh there’s no end date he

[smoky summit]

And thus began Super Shadow being a recolor again because they didn't update the damn concept art

[prime hearth]

who can blame em aliens are sick

[rocky leaf]

super shadow is canonically a slight lighter golden iirc

[smoky summit]

Beloved raised quills Super Shadow... Only lived to see 1 fight

[forest fractal]

Fucking love alien invasions

[modest parcel]

Gerald would have made sense as a Black Doom stand in though; he'd basically be carrying out the same thing as Doom from a moral choice angle

[rocky leaf]

they just keep changing their mind in how to depict that with the 3d rendering and effects

[smoky summit]

Oh the color is fine I mean the raised quills

😭

[prime hearth]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-excited-rub-hands-rub-hands-gif-1072640976102390302

[cunning echo]

is kinda lame but I never was a fan of shadow having that android drama around idk

[smoky summit]

Some day I will figure out how to remove this stupid filter

[wide portal]

It sucked

[cunning echo]

is like eh, ig if they made it something like terminator it could've worked?

[wide portal]

if they even dare do the heroes/05 drama in the movies I will combust

[forest fractal]

I love reacting to the world getting rawdogged by aliens

[rocky leaf]

pretty sure that one's iizuka

[smoky summit]

Tbh they aren't even consistent with Super Sonic or Sonic's colors

So its no surprise

[autumn yacht]

dang he can draw tbh

[wide portal]

he’s a pretty solid artist

[autumn yacht]

put him back in charge, oh wait he is

[wide portal]

they should hire him for this little indie comic I’ve been reading, it’s published by IDW

[smoky summit]

Someone post the Shun Nakamura art 😭

[rocky leaf]

ohshima said that that one superstars gallery picture that's forever my big mystery was iizuka's so

one day I'll get to ask iizuka what the fuck is that drawing

[cunning echo]

which one?

[autumn yacht]

they concepted the characters being annoying to shadow what a mood

[smoky summit]

Uhh

We can probably tell?

Are they all on the wiki somewhere?

[rocky leaf]

fun fact those seem to be studies for the mugshots used in sonic rivals

[modest parcel]

Oh shit

[autumn yacht]

oh wow

[smoky summit]

Yeah

[autumn yacht]

i know nothing of superstars what happened here

[smoky summit]

They are recognizable

[rocky leaf]

and uuh I'd show you if I could remember where sonic wiki has the gallery from superstars uploaded lol

might have that locally though let me see

wait not superstars

origins

sorry

[smoky summit]

Did Iizuka's quick fire concept art start this whole muzzle curve fiasco, I wonder 😭

[rocky leaf]

this thing

[smoky summit]

Oh

[rocky leaf]

iizuka drew this

[smoky summit]

Yeah thats iizuka

Cowboy Shadic

[autumn yacht]

hmm could this be for rivals too then?

[rocky leaf]

I have no idea what it is and I'd love to know what the fuck lol

[smoky summit]

Yeah thats that infamous rouge render

[cunning echo]

yup, that looks like rivals 2 art

yeaa

[autumn yacht]

oh good

[smoky summit]

Lmao

[autumn yacht]

since the collection room mislabels like a good 30% or so of the art

[smoky summit]

@modest parcel analyse this please so we can confirm Iizuka's stance on the Rouge situation

[cunning echo]

😭

Honestly, I think Im past rouge booba

[autumn yacht]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-doggo-bye-disappear-good-bye-gif-17598781

[smoky summit]

There's leaks on the line

[rocky leaf]

I really like the black arms kinda looking like corrupted wizeman and a bunch of nightmaren

[modest parcel]

commencing analysis

https://tenor.com/view/scanning-for-zoom-in-gif-2015240526116298383

[smoky summit]

Black Doom retained some vibes

[wide portal]

speaking of I might as well ask since he’s here

Mauro idk how much you know/can say about it but are the rouge design changes gonna have any bearing on her use in the book moving forward or no

[autumn yacht]

iizuka's level design be a bit confusing though

[rocky leaf]

iunno lol

[autumn yacht]

oh wowww, i would've thought fully original

[cunning echo]

reminds of master system sonic 2

[rocky leaf]

it's not like we get a message from above going "do it like this now"

[autumn yacht]

also obligatory

[rocky leaf]

if it does change anything, it'll likely be shown just by someone drawing rouge in a way they feel doesn't fit and they go "hey change that"

[cunning echo]

dude poor Iizuka 😭

[rocky leaf]

this reminds me I shoulda done some page corrections today but ah well it's friday lol

[cunning echo]

he was really skinny years ago

[rocky leaf]

they'll be in by monday

[smoky summit]

I think all the comic artists are in the know enough to just kinda follow small design changes anyways

[rocky leaf]

like, they try to be helpful

sometimes if they see you struggled with a design they might go "please do it like this" and send a model sheet

I figure if they start insisting rouge has to match the new style, they might do that

"please follow this new model sheet"

but only in reaction to someone not drawing in accordance to it

[smoky summit]

Well, time will tell

[rocky leaf]

someone get the 98 photo of iizuka

google's failing me

[smoky summit]

I would but I feel like someone is alre-

[rocky leaf]

there we go

[smoky summit]

Yeah there you go

[modest parcel]

[rocky leaf]

iconic

[autumn yacht]

mystic ruins was probably crashing that day

[smoky summit]

The day after he redesigned Windy Valley

[rocky leaf]

also like how smug uekawa appears here

especially since iirc there's not that many photos of him

[smoky summit]

90s Sonic Team was peak vibes

Genuinely wonder how this even came about 😭

[rocky leaf]

I mean, judging by the text, it's an interview with them in a magazine

[smoky summit]

Bunch of nerdy game devs slaving away at this game but then hold up we gonna dapper up really hard for no reason for this 1 photo

[rocky leaf]

NiGHTS DREAMING Interview Part 1 etc

[smoky summit]

Ofc its Nights

They were on some different wavelengths back then

And ofc

Can't say NiGHTS without this

[cunning echo]

💀💀💀

that shit was the most childish thing ever

why did naka hated oshima for again?

[autumn yacht]

this is still very funny

wait yea what's the beef

[cunning echo]

I really dont remember the reason

[smoky summit]

Did he wear the glasses just to look cool 😭

[cunning echo]

but honestly is still crazy cuz I think the reason oshima left sega was because he had big problems with naka

[rocky leaf]

tldr balan wonderworld's development was shit and naka and ohshima fell apart from it

[smoky summit]

Probably not cause why would he work with him again

[cunning echo]

I suppose doing balan was probably to maybe fix their relatioship as past co-workers but it seems like it ended in something worse

[rocky leaf]

the vibe seems to be naka was a bit of a slavedriver but also that the projects only worked because of that- remove naka and suddenly there's no longer abusive work conditions but now the game's shit

[autumn yacht]

reading that he erased the name from sonic adventure dx's credits, that's a level of pettiness that's almost inspiring

[cunning echo]

exactly

I think they just had a big missunderstandings back in the day

[smoky summit]

I think after the Saturn era Naka was completely hands off development and that probably rubbed people the wrong way

[cunning echo]

he was

[autumn yacht]

naka telling iizuka if heroes doesn't release on christmas his pay is docked (heroes is released after christmas anyway)

[cunning echo]

didnt some devs said naka went to their studio and said to take the code from some game to use it on sonic 😭

[smoky summit]

That's a western 3rd party

[rocky leaf]

naka got promoted out of game dev

[smoky summit]

He doesn't like western 3rd parties

[rocky leaf]

originally

[autumn yacht]

tbh i have a negative impression because there are a few interviews where naka talks more about cars than like, the project he worked on
but iizuka claims in interviews naka was always there so maybe it's not like, that

[rocky leaf]

it's why he left sonic team

[smoky summit]

Or first parties

Yeah a lot of long timers end up in that situation

[cunning echo]

his position was basically like nakamura

back in adventure to 06 era

[smoky summit]

Nagoshi was kinda similar, but rumors believe he was also taking bribes from Sony

[rocky leaf]

naka was no longer a programmer or designer, he was the business guy leading the company (and remember sonic team was a separate company for a few years in the 2000s)

and the word, publicly at least, was he got tired of that and wanted to get back to game devving

[smoky summit]

I feel like I also heard some things about money disputes and like

Not getting promoted further or something

Either way, he was rich enough to pay his humongous bail

So it probably all worked out for him in the end

[rocky leaf]

he was rich enough to travel the world with his kids and race lotus cars

if you look at his facebook page it's just photos like that lol

[smoky summit]

Yeah he's a race car fanatic apparently

Which is lowkey surprising cause like

There's a lot of stories about less business savvy people getting robbed of their riches

[rocky leaf]

relevant

[smoky summit]

So for him to still be loaded 20 years after the fact despite starting a whole gaming company with no real hits

[smoky summit]

Haha, typical

[rocky leaf]

huh, wonder if they're talking about how sega of america and sony of america rejected anything too japanese

[cunning echo]

he also had a lil bit of bad luck honestly

his wii game was literally remade into a crappy wii u game

[autumn yacht]

iizuka is likely rich now too but probably has zero interest in race cars lol

[cunning echo]

Balan was just doomed when he got to work with broshima and also the stuff he was doing behind square backs

[rocky leaf]

lmao

[cunning echo]

But I think what doesnt help naka is the amount of ego he has

[smoky summit]

it sounds like he's a stickler for the things he already knows how to do

[cunning echo]

yuuup

[smoky summit]

the whiplash he mustve felt moving from Japan to LA and the prices of everything shooting up

[cunning echo]

I think he just doesn't know how to lead a team

[autumn yacht]

iizuka when in and out prices

do we think he bought anything

[smoky summit]

I really wanna know what he was saying

😭

[toxic vapor]

The old frontiers was horribly empty tho

I think they mean the Mecha Sonic they saw was too detailed to be just concept art

Like probably a 3D model

[humble drum]

let's hope no

burn this thing

[modest parcel]

Didn't you read the first part of that sentence

There are things that haters and fans can agree on occasionally

[toxic vapor]

When I used to be big in that degen leaker sphere, a lot of people had little murr murrs of Mania 2.

But some of the conversations always never went anywhere because every time they’d mention a gag order and then shut up

That’s why I can really believe nothing happened with Mania 2 but “creative differences”, because most people “in the know” every time alludes to something different

[modest parcel]

I remember some of the rumors that were going around; a lot of them were pretty bs though

[toxic vapor]

Ngl I don’t believe most of them where

Like that Liam Robinson dude is an actual gaming journalist, and it took one “Sega and I are cool!” tweet from a dude at Evening Star to scream PR for a lot of people here to echo it

[modest parcel]

I don't know if you recall but I think the first time we interacted was when the "Evening Star left on bad terms with SEGA because they forced them to sell the rights for the Retro Engine for SEGA to use on their own games -> Superstars is using the retro engine" rumor was floating around

People were swearing up and down that there was bad blood because of that, and now look how credible those rumors are now

[toxic vapor]

The bad blood was probably years ago

Like obviously Evening Star is chill with Iizuka and the other Sonic Team members

But I just can’t believe there was no meddling with Sega that caused Mania 2 to just fizzle. Payment disputes and what not

[modest parcel]

If there's any actual bad blood that does exist, I'd have to assume it's from specific individuals rather than the entirity of the Mania team itself atp

[toxic vapor]

I’d assume it’s just staying professional like

Why would Evening Star go scorched earth lol

[modest parcel]

But beyond that they still assisted with Superstars' development alongside that

They're more than just amicable in this case

[wide portal]

this always gets left out in the conversation, easy mistake to make

[dusty osprey]

That happened way before that

[wide portal]

but I do think the situation is less “mania 2 died and superstars filled its place” and moreso “mania 2 evolved into superstars”

[modest parcel]

Eh I'm fine with saying Mania 2 died, though moreso Superstars' original prototype died

[dusty osprey]

This silly as hell

[modest parcel]

Oh boy here we go

https://tenor.com/view/easter-doe-eating-deer-eating-popcorn-funny-gif-4621167703268332056

[dusty osprey]

all imma say is, maybe if iizuka didn't make a whole article about it

[modest parcel]

No Village the chat was wishcasting it earlier

Vegeta Shadow has fandom

Is agenda in itself now

[dusty osprey]

I'm not commenting on any of that, i'm just saying the idea its because " they don't want it be seen as a rip off " is silly as hell. When there are other people who openly talk about characters being inspired by other works of fiction

and they have been saying shadow was inspired by comic characters since 2005

You thnk iizuka said shadow was inspired by constantine to cover his ass?

The idea that these people can't have interests outsde of " this anime i like " is wild

[modest parcel]

That is true; those blurbs from interviews come from way back in the day

[dusty osprey]

or the terminator. Or batman

[rocky leaf]

I'm not saying that?

[modest parcel]

That is also true

Why'd you say he said that Village

[dusty osprey]

I genuinely think they right now feel more comfortable saying "shadow is based on spawn" etc, american concepts, than "shadow is based on vegeta", which would be seen as ripping off a fellow japanese company, despite the fact it's directly written right there lol

[wide portal]

I was about to say “I don’t think Mauro said that” and he confirmed it for be so yeah

it’s moreso about which influences they’re more cool with stating out loud

[rocky leaf]

If anything spawn makes sense, he was popular among 90s nerds and you see the influence in a lot of manga such as steam detective

[modest parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man-the-spot-meme-created-gif-11061212586441186137

[rocky leaf]

What I'm saying is, the concept art showed vegeta directly as a stated mention, but suddenly in the last year they're covering that in the

Hold on just realised I got something time sensitive here gimme a sec

[modest parcel]

Be very careful continuing the convo here mauro 💀

[pulsar horizon]

Why can I hear this gif

[dusty osprey]

Yeah , because they don't want you to think of him like that.

[modest parcel]

Village doesn't really agree with Vegeta having inspired Shadow at all

[dusty osprey]

Even if its written on a paper, someone's gonna say " that's their true intent" and think of them like that

[rocky leaf]

Back

[wide portal]

yeah because in the concept art they wrote down vegeta’s name 😭

[dusty osprey]

Yeah

[wide portal]

like uh oh whoopsie didn’t mean to put that there

[dusty osprey]

they had an idea

they did not go with the idea

shadow is buff in that concept art

[modest parcel]

Sigh

[rocky leaf]

no he isn't?

we know the paper that the "vegeta" naming is in

it shows the finished shoes of the design

none of the "buff" designs have the finalised shoes

anyway that's not even the point I was making though!

[modest parcel]

And the head that has the final hairdo for Shadow

[dusty osprey]

That is never presented by itself!

[wise chasm]

Forces has those options, but it doesn't actually do anything with them, the animations and logic for some reason are still stuck to 60. And you could tell if you directly play that and then right after play Shadow Gens, which does have proper 120fps

[dusty osprey]

Its presented with all the other concepts that didn't make it through!

Almost for a reason!

[rocky leaf]

my man

you're arguing something that's not being argued

[wide portal]

first stage is denial

[rocky leaf]

I'll give you this grace- stop saying that now and let me say what I was actually saying and not what you misinterpreted, and we can have this discussion end amicably and on a "oh ok sorry miscommunication"

[dusty osprey]

In the nicest gentlest way possible. Stop

[rocky leaf]

or show no indication of that and I'm off to shower

[cunning echo]

nah

[rocky leaf]

is it worth finishing this thought, or not?

[cunning echo]

I think almost everyone forgets that superstars came to be due to Oshima

telling Iizuka that he wanted to work on sonic again on a zoom call

[modest parcel]

He was basically picking up where Evening Star left off though

[wide portal]

okay “mania 2 was drowning but Oshima saved it with his healing water and balan whimsy”

[dusty osprey]

Yeah it feels like , it wasn't out of nowhere.

[cunning echo]

Im not saying you are saying this plug btw but for some people it seems that sega replaced evening team with arzest which is not the case

[toxic vapor]

This chat lowkey active

[cunning echo]

and I dislike that

[toxic vapor]

But Doi is such an idiot like dude

[wide portal]

oh my god I just remembered this is the Rumours and Speculation Channel

[toxic vapor]

Idk why you wouldn’t just leak the contents of this hypothetical game to 4chan

[modest parcel]

This is speculating my rumors so good

[dusty osprey]

Big dog i'm reading the words you said. But if you wanna drop it that's cool

[cunning echo]

Evening team tested with a sonic demo for their new engine but it was solely for that, a test

[toxic vapor]

Bro posted everything that could incriminate himself man im dead

[dusty osprey]

its not that serious

[modest parcel]

Tbf this was about rumors

[cunning echo]

there wasnt really a mania 2 in mind

[modest parcel]

And this is speculation

So

🥹

[wide portal]

that discord account standing menu’s about to be seeing red in a few weeks

IF he’s telling the truth

[modest parcel]

Mania Evolved

[wide portal]

(which I doubt)

[rocky leaf]

it's not about it being so serious, it's that you're arguing here about how much shadow is vegeta or not when that's not even what I was talking about, and it being near 6am so me knowing if it's even worth saying anything

but alright, gimme a second to put it together

[wide portal]

that mecha sonic shit sounds like insane bull dawg it’s genuinely looped back around to being hilarious

[cunning echo]

meh

[dusty osprey]

i wasn't arguing that? with you specifically i make note of this. I was arguing that, i don't think iizuka was tryng to cover anythng but suggesting he was based on spawn. I don't think its about them being confortable. I think that notion is silly

[cunning echo]

shadow is vegeta idc

😭

shadow is just like, a more dramatic vegeta

thats it

[modest parcel]

Ew

[dusty osprey]

I was bringing up proof that they have talked about him being based on comic characters, before

[mint umbra]

i think what most likely took place is the mania team started working on a mania 2 prototype, they split off and formed evening star due to creative differences, wanting to make their own IP or any other undisclosed reason, at a later point iizuka and ohshima met up and decided to have arzest work on a 2D sonic, they then used what the mania team made as a base for their concept and hired christian whitehead to recreate that character controller in unity

[modest parcel]

That gave me the ick davih

[dusty osprey]

If you think he's vegeta, sure yeah whatever man

[rocky leaf]

that's not what I'm talking about man lol

just listen

[dusty osprey]

I genuinely think they right now feel more comfortable saying "shadow is based on spawn" etc, american concepts, than "shadow is based on vegeta", which would be seen as ripping off a fellow japanese company, despite the fact it's directly written right there lol

[modest parcel]

.

[dusty osprey]

If that's not what you mean, then sure cool man. But this is what you wrote.

[rocky leaf]

oh my god

[wide portal]

i

[cunning echo]

well the idea came out from Iizuka who asked oshima to work on a new 2d sonic game so yea

[toxic vapor]

My balls itch rn ngl

[modest parcel]

Ty Freexe

[toxic vapor]

Rn means right now
And ngl means not gonna lie
I was just using slang

[mint umbra]

yeah, but obviously the idea for a mania 2 existed prior to that lol

[cunning echo]

rather than mania it was more like a new classic game

mania 2 would be just anothe reused level game

[toxic vapor]

Yeah but one of Mania’s taglines was by the mania, for the mania

[cunning echo]

they were trying to look up for a new formula for classic sonic

[toxic vapor]

The Mania team making a sequel would be named Mania 2 by fans

[mint umbra]

it prob wouldn't have actually been called "sonic mania 2"

[modest parcel]

They weren't going to do that again 😭

[toxic vapor]

No one ever said anything about it literally being called Mania 2

[modest parcel]

You guys say Frontiers 2 all the time

[cunning echo]

Could you imagine if that happened

[modest parcel]

But you understand it wouldn't actually be Frontiers 2

[cunning echo]

😭

[toxic vapor]

Btw I just wanna say as I grow older, I understand why Sonic Team reuses level layouts and assets

[cunning echo]

at the same time, I can die happy without other evening star classic game

I think oshima coming back to sonic was a big thing

even tho I didnt like the game LOL

but look, I can give him a second chance

[modest parcel]

Btw I don't know if you guys saw

But

Evening Star had some recent job listings

[toxic vapor]

I’ve tried to convince my friend for me to be able to reuse level layouts for a game I’m working on, and he kept telling me no lmaoooo

[modest parcel]

For a 3D platformer

[rocky leaf]

wall of text because I'm annoyed

[cunning echo]

CD still my fav classic game so if Oshima worked in another 2d game and is something like that, get me in

[rocky leaf]

facts:
1- there's a concept art sheet that lists various points about shadow, the last of which being an explicit namedrop of Vegeta
2- when that sheet was shown this past year, that explicit namedrop was physically covered up, and iizuka also denied Vegeta being an inspiration at all despite that being contradicted by the concept art itself
3- he does, instead, argue that Spawn was a reference
4- japanese pop culture or whatever you want to call it is often much more strict about references to other copyrights than in the West- see all the parodies that will namedrop a different show or something but feel the need to censor it
my speculation:
I think, with all this in mind, that the fact Iizuka will happily mention Spawn but they will go out of their way to pretend they never mentioned Vegeta, despite this being a literal fact that we can point to, is because Spawn is an American property, and Vegeta is from Dragonball, a Japanese one. I'm not saying Shadow is Vegeta or whatever- I'm saying that factually, in his concept art, even if you want to say it's a discarded concept, THERE IS a concept specifically namedropping Vegeta, that THEY DID suddenly try to pretend they never said at all despite it being in concept art they themselves published. I am not opining here on whether there's any "Vegeta DNA" in Shadow- we literally know there is, it's a historical fact. You can argue "how much", but you can't argue it being there at all- it literally is there, written, in a paper, that's part of a collection of papers of how the concept of the character was developed. My theory isn't whether Shadow is or not based on Vegeta or on Spawn- my theory, my speculation, is that for reasons of how their culture deals with the notion of art ownership, they feel more comfortable acknowledging one than the other, even if the cat's out of the bag in one of them already. I'm not saying they're making up being inspired by Spawn, I'm not saying Shadow is Vegeta, I'm talking about an actual, literal, real, historical fact, that you can directly yourself verify by looking at published documentation.
I'll add to this that to my memory, at no point in the franchise have the Japanese devs ever admitted to any inspiration from Japanese media while working on the franchise. We all know Sonic's based on Ghibli stuff- but they've never said as much. We all can point that Shadow's shoes are based on a Gundam- but they never said it. Frontiers is Evangelion- never stated. Totoya has talked about Sonic 2 being based on Godzilla, Casshern, VOTOMS, Urusei Yatsura- but he notably only ever said such years and years after having left Sonic Team. The leaked Sonic 06 script specifically mentioned Future Trunks in regards to Silver- but it was leaked.
In terms of a specific moment of Sonic Team, not ex-Sonic Team but current active Sonic Team, saying "we were inspired by this other Japanese product", "Shadow was inspired by Vegeta" was the only singular time, a quick mention in a piece of concept art. And suddenly, it's the one they're also pretending they never said. Now do you get what I'm saying?

[cunning echo]

[modest parcel]

o

[mint umbra]

im pretty confident its a new original game

[modest parcel]

True true

But

Wouldn't it be crazy

[cunning echo]

didnt shama said it was an anime game

[toxic vapor]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/807809192537882647/1347816652904992799/vcollide_wireframe.gif

[cunning echo]

thats what their listing was hitting on

[modest parcel]

Evening Star modern sonic game...

[mint umbra]

it would be but i don't think they'd have their modeler job listing for specifically 3D anime artists

bc that's a relatively niche and specific job

[modest parcel]

But... modern sonic... is anime....

[toxic vapor]

Evening Star Classic Sonic game inspired by Sonic CD?????

[modest parcel]

Not that anime

[toxic vapor]

https://tenor.com/view/yummy-tongue-flight-flight-reacts-excited-gif-17057509

[modest parcel]

It was like

Anime characters and stuff

[toxic vapor]

Classic Sonic NEEDS a 3D game

[modest parcel]

Also true...

[mint umbra]

i mean yeah but also i think the job listing kinda hints you gotta have experience with 3D anime humans

[untold kayak]

Sir Galahad in Black Knight is Silver, and in the Arthurian Legend (and I think in Black Knight as well, I don't remember), Galahad is Lancelot's son and Shadow is Lancelot in Black Knight. So Sonic Team definetely alludes to that thing from time to time even if they are not explicit about it

[toxic vapor]

They looking for a level designer huh

https://tenor.com/view/luffy-fat-luffy-gif-4694706870262869406

That’s me

I’m a level designer

[modest parcel]

Grrrrr BACK OFF

[cunning echo]

lol

[modest parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/wolf-howling-wolf-winter-season-gif-24269677

[toxic vapor]

Bro knows I’d be a goated

I can design levels better then uhh

[mint umbra]

there's a whole lot of extra steps to making a good looking 3D anime human that you don't really need to know about to model a good anime-esque 3D sonic character

[toxic vapor]

Sonic Team???

[modest parcel]

God I really let myself stagnate

[wide portal]

Evening Star comes back but it’s a 3D modern spinoff written by Ian Flynn

[cunning echo]

shut up 😭

[mint umbra]

so im pretty confident its just a new original game by them

[wide portal]

now this was the ending I was created to bring

[modest parcel]

Oh

There are like

A lot of details on this listing

Hmm nothing specific though

I think their bluesky post gave more away

[cunning echo]

blender maya and zbrush holy fuck

😭

that's a lot

[wide portal]

Blender, Maya, AND ZBrush????

[cunning echo]

literally the 3 most popular 3d programs

and you gotta know them 3

[wide portal]

substance painter too this feels like job creep dawg

[modest parcel]

This is the post for that listing

[toxic vapor]

Bro shut up and shake ass lil bro

[cunning echo]

substance isn't that hard neither photoshop since both are probably for texturing work

[modest parcel]

Oh

[cunning echo]

but dang needing those 3 specifically

the payment better be good

[modest parcel]

They straight up say "Bring our new 3D game to life!" here

[cunning echo]

https://gif.fxtwitter.com/tweet_video/Guex8e-aoAA53-H.gif

[mint umbra]

they should hire me ive made like

1 character which is clearly enough for a senior position

[modest parcel]

@toxic vapor r u up 2 it?

[wide portal]

two years from now we’re gonna see freeze and nidio in the credits of evening star’s next game

[cunning echo]

give him like 3 more years actually 😭

when penny 2 is in development

[mint umbra]

honestly really doubt they're ever gonna do penny 2 lol

[wide portal]

the first one didn’t do great right

[cunning echo]

damn

Ig Penny will end up like bubsy

[mint umbra]

yeah, seemingly it didn't sell super well bc evening star had to lay off employees

[modest parcel]

Honestly I feel the village mauro face off incoming so I'll just say my piece as usual for this

[cunning echo]

next penny game might be just a 2D random game

[modest parcel]

Iizuka is talking about his inspirations for the character; just because he wasn't inspired by Vegeta doesn't mean that others weren't, namely the artists

[cunning echo]

hoshino was 🔥

[modest parcel]

Iizuka and Maekawa specifically cite sources that are completely separate from Vegeta, and that's 100% believable with the way he was written

[cunning echo]

but tbh, shadow actitude is pretty similar to vegeta

[modest parcel]

He is not lol

[cunning echo]

is not 1:1

[modest parcel]

It's not even 1:0.5

[cunning echo]

both have their own story and personality

but they are similar

[wise chasm]

Rumors & Speculation gonna start smelling like a debate club rn

[cunning echo]

pffft

[wide portal]

he typin

I am Santiago

[cunning echo]

man I just cant take you seriously with that picture

😭

is so random

dont take it off tho

[modest parcel]

Also there is the example of Judy Totoya confirming that he was inspired by Piccolo and Gohan when conceptualizing Sonic and Tails' relationship, but denying that the number of chaos emeralds was inspired by the dragon balls. And Evangelion is cited as a source of inspiration for Frontiers by Kishimoto iirc