#Hearts of Iron IV

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

mortal remnant
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That would be a Cannon 1

gray bane
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True

mortal remnant
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It was feared by Axis pilots cus it was one of the few US aircraft that had center mount weapons

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so it was much more lethal in a head on

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But yeah, as the google doc's comment I made says, I do not meta game HOI

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any accusations to the contrary can be directed to @sharp phoenix who can attest my designs are "dogshit"

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The main reasons I play Ops HOI MP events are to fight something that actually builds tanks and planes better than Fighter II and because there's a terminal lack of players willing to run Allied majors

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that and cus rosa enjoys them and I like supporting things rosa has fun with

summer lynx
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JAPAN JAPAN 💪💪💪💪💪💪

mortal remnant
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Like if you wanna complain and whine at me for agreeing to solo run one of the most intensive nations in the game w/ the only other Allied player being a UK that LITERALLY DOESNT KNOW HOW NAVY WORKS

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I literally dont care lol

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well that's not true

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I find it reasonably annoying

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but not unduly so

sharp phoenix
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Well, the generally banned meta

mortal remnant
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If I wanted to meta-game I'd make a tank you need heavy cannon 2 to pen reliably but that's cringe

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Like I get you want to meta game what's deemed "kosher" by the HOI community but quite frankly ur in the wrong Discord if that's what ur looking for

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ur like the only Skill 5 on the doc, nobody has ever disputed that, IDK what extent of seal clubbing you need to do to prove that

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to then turn and whine someone is using historical divisions w/ non-meta vehicles

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Like this is what, round 9 of "hapless hour 5 HOI player being saddled with Fra / UK gets shredded by meta Germany player"

sharp phoenix
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define "meta"

woeful pollen
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Okay I am going to ask we stop here.

mortal remnant
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I mean, if you wanna avoid that term for yourself sure, I don't claim to know what's meta beyond late game jets and MBTs

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I still build strat bombers

sharp phoenix
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not what is the meta. What does "meta" mean to you?

woeful pollen
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Hey, stop now. You guys are just going at each other here. If you really want to continue take it do DMs but it doesn't need to be here.

sharp phoenix
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i don't like hiding shit

mortal remnant
wise lance
warped condor
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I put some notes/thoughts in the doc. Quick tl;dr:

  • Like in Ops, I usually advocate for less "letter of the law" rules, and more "sprit of the op" rules.
  • "Rulesets" are not community enforced rules. They're just rules agreed upon by those playing before play starts. Rulesets are set by whoever is hosting, and are made known to all participants before starting. Different hosts can advocate for whatever ruleset they want. Players are under no obligation to participate if they dont agree with the ruleset.

I think the below is a reasonable set of rules that align with what we typically are trying to do (with historical games, anyways.)

  • They keep the game on the historical rails, without overly limiting what players can do in terms of exercising judgement and creative problem solving.
  • They are limited in number, so as to be reasonably adhered to by new and veteran players alike
  • They assume a certain amount of sportsmanship (which we expect from participants)
  • They assume a good faith effort has been made to balance the key majors (GER, USSR, UK, USA). Reasonable accommodations SHOULD be made when these are not balanced.

Proposed 15 Rules:

Standard Text: For adherence to history
Italicized Text: For quality of life/mitigation of game mechanics
(some rules are in furtherance of both. just categorized based on key reason I think they should be adhered to)

General

  • Strict adherence to historical ideology and factions
  • No manual war justification until August 42
  • Germany and USSR must agree to Molotov-Ribbentrop
  • Max fort strength rule? (5? 7?) (This is a rule that can be enforced by actual game mehanic where it caps it. I can be swayed on this. I think max fort spam is generally agreed upon as cheesy)
  • No Space Marines (armored battalions in leg infantry templates)
  • No mixed tank divisions (not familiar with this, assume there’s a good reason similar to space marines)
  • No deletion of encircled units
  • No excessive pausing

Allied

  • No US involvement until December 1941 or until they or mainland UK are attacked.
  • Cannot deny Rhineland/Sudetenland
  • No support to Ethiopia (non historical, but more importantly can directly impact Italy's ability to go historical)
  • No allied troops on eastern front, no soviet troops on western front

Axis

  • No Sea-Lion until after the fall of france
  • No Japanese invasion of USSR before capture of India, Australia, Malaya, Sumatra, Java
  • No GEACPS forces in Europe unless they've secured ports in Africa

@sharp phoenix you had some additional rules in yours that are good ones that I agree with - but if the rules list gets too expansive people stop caring/paying attention. Some of them I would throw under a general assumption of good faith/sportsmanship. Some others I think are slightly over restrictive. Others, like "flicker bombing" are so deep in the MP pub/comp/sweat scene I'd doubt if 10% of our players have even heard of it (I personally hadnt).

rich forum
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question, am i still allowed to play communist finland or turkey?

warped condor
# rich forum question, am i still allowed to play communist finland or turkey?

"Rulesets" are not community enforced rules. They're just rules agreed upon by those playing before play starts. Rulesets are set by whoever is hosting, and are made known to all participants before starting. Different hosts can advocate for whatever ruleset they want. Players are under no obligation to participate if they dont agree with the ruleset.

tl:dr - play whatever you want, so long as its agreed upon ahead of time if "outside" the norms/ruleset.

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I would say the "common courtesy" would be:

for communist finland - ask the USSR player.
for communist turkey - ask the GER player.

summer lynx
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Can I just say the emperor is proud over Japan

hazy creek
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I think some rules to avoid abuse of big flaws are good. Although I raise my skeptical eyebrow over the mix of absolute and relative rulings. Like US participation in the war seems to have absolute date no matter how the rest of the world is going. But limit of Sea-Lion is relative and if France falls too fast it could come sooner than expected.

And another subjective thing is.. no excessive pausing rule. I personally never had a problem with pausing as I know sometime things happen out of nowhere and you need time to reshuffle troops or make right decisions. I know there are people who are more likely to complain though. Often this correlates with amount of skill in the game (people with more skill seem to complain more) or with who is attacking/being attacked (the attacker who found a hole/is doing naval/air invasion seems to be more irritated by a sudden pause that decreases their chance in succeeding).

I find it odd though when more skilled people complain when others (often less skilled) do something they know how to counter and still win, yet they choose to complain instead

warped condor
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for what its worth - none of the above has anything to do with anyone's complaints yesterday, a week ago, or ever. they are just my take on rules that make sense.

I think a mix of absolute and relative rules is a 100% necessity when playing historical - for all of the reasons listed here:

  • They keep the game on the historical rails, without overly limiting what players can do in terms of exercising judgement and creative problem solving.
  • They assume a certain amount of sportsmanship (which we expect from participants)
  • They assume a good faith effort has been made to balance the key majors (GER, USSR, UK, USA). Reasonable accommodations SHOULD be made when these are not balanced.

To your specific points:

  • USA. Once the USA joins, it typically spells the end for the axis. In historical, this is seem as "somewhat" inevitable (though not always). To preserve the fun of the game, its important that the US does not join early. Its also not historical. The US joining too early can royally fuck up the historical trees of other nations, and actively works against the natural "flow of fun" that historical is. A lot of historical games are on rails anyways due to the length of time it takes to complete national focuses. Also - if you read the rule, it allows for exceptions based on whats going on in the rest of the world.

  • Sea Lion. It can be fairly cheesy if the UK has to worry about SeaLion before france falls. Its not historical, but also game-wise, it ruins the flow and balance of the game. A historical WW2 where the UK is knocked out in 1940 is less likely to be enjoyable for the majority of the participants on both sides. Some rules are about protecting the general flow/fun of the game.

  • Excessive pausing has absolutely been a problem in the past, by more than one individual. This game can be stressful, and complicated, and encourages an environment where someone might want to pause. Thats all well and good, until it becomes excessive. Once again, its a common courtesy thing. Folks are already committing 5 hours on average to these games.

Absolute rules are needed to ensure a single persons actions dont waste 5+ hours of other peoples time.
Relative rules are needed to ensure certain ethos are adhered to, but not so strictly as to prevent players from being able to actually exert some level of judgement/control/creativity over their nation.

I agree with your sentiment that when people complain it sucks. Sometimes its warranted, sometimes its just bitching, sometimes its a mix of both. Thats gaming. We're all adults. Drop the hammer on people who are getting annoying with it, or choose not to play with them.

summer lynx
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And also HOI4 is very competitive so it tend to make everyone toxic but ...

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JAPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN

warped condor
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just folks needing ego checks.

summer lynx
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Can I just add do something they know how to counter and still win, yet they choose to complain instead reference to yesterday, this wasn;t done to Germany, it was done to Italy (less skilled player) and me (less skilled player)

summer lynx
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But we ended for Op Sadge

warped condor
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ego checks arent about beating people who think they are or are good at the game.
its about people thinking being good at the game matters at all in this community.

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sometimes we have to have this conversation regarding Ops, too.
if you want to host or participate in a game in this community, its about ensuring an environment that people will enjoy. that can be casual, or it can be sweaty comp. all about communicating expectations up front. (which is why having a nice set of simple, easy to follow rules is a good idea)

azure crow
# warped condor I put some notes/thoughts in the doc. Quick tl;dr: - Like in Ops, I usually ad...

Some thoughts on these

  • Max fort spam is definitely cheesy but for example there are gaps in natural lines of defense where it would make sense to build up the forts more (e.g. Vitebsk) or key strongpoints you would fortify heavily to try and hold on to (Kiev)
  • Space marines beyond a certain point could be annoying, but if the enemy has even a support AT section it just becomes a production black hole. Even a minor is able to slap 2-3 factories on AT guns and equip their frontline infantry with the stuff, and for majors it's not terribly hard either.
warped condor
# azure crow Some thoughts on these - Max fort spam is definitely cheesy but for example ther...

re/ Forts, I agree. A 10 stack fort on Gibraltar for example makes perfect sense. Just not sure how to keep the rule simple without outlining a dozen different exceptions. The alternative obviously being the spirit/ethos route, to just write it as "dont be obnoxious with it" - at which point, why even bother making it a rule.

re/ Space Marines - to be completely honest I dont know or care about the stats enough to fully understand, but I do know that 99% of groups playing HOI outlaw them, and my understanding has always been that their stats (hardness specifically, I think) become untennable. If we can reach a consensus on that no longer being the case, I couldn't care less if we remove the rule.

azure crow
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as for space marines, they've received two major nerfs over the years:

misty ibex
azure crow
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  1. The new supply system. It's hard to get supplies to every division on the front now, so if they start taking tank losses it becomes very hard to keep the armor company at full strength
  2. Partial piercing. Partial piercing allows units to still damage tanks even if they cannot fully pierce their armor, resulting in tank losses to basically any armor div attacking an enemy div and heavier losses against AT guns. Armor still retains its breakthrough advantage over having no armor, otherwise it wouldn't really be worth using at all, but partial piercing did basically fix the 'haha I have 1 tank company in my infantry division you die now' cheese of pre By Blood Alone 'space marines' style templates.
hazy creek
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Oh I had a full line of 10/10 sea fortresses on my Sweden coast and on the border with Finland 😁 not sure what else to do with all those civ factories once all infrastructure and anti air is maxed and whatnot, just turtle

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But I also get that noone cares about what Sweden does (beside @rich forum 🤭)

misty ibex
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I totally didn't have coastal forts on the entire South American coast with forts built deep in the amazon

hazy creek
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Also not sure if I do it right but my endgame base inf template had recon, aa, at, arti and engi. A bunch of infantry and 1 arti with ~19 width. And I specced my infantry equipment makers to add piercing/AT capabilities. Not sure if that helps with "space marines" but I'd hope so?

azure crow
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Further addendum:

IMG_6895.png
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To mitigate even 20% of the damage of '39 upgraded AT guns, you need 51 armor

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Which would mean for a space marines template

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A battalion of 127.5 armor tanks

warped condor
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that math doesnt math for me

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give me a sec to read this over again

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when it says thats the armor stat for the tank itself

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I think it is saying the armor on the tank needs to be 51, in order to bring the division armor high enough to reduce damage by 20%?

azure crow
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Leg infantry have no armor though right? So it would be 40% of the armor of whatever tank you stick in there as support

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The text on the right says the calc is 40% is the armor of your highest armored unit + 60% is the average armor of the div

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Oh wait I didn't quite math right

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But it would still be substantially higher than 51

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Time for some algebra lol

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1 sec

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Okay we will assume a 20w infantry division with a single armored addition for a width of 2

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(note: a higher width INF division would be even worse because of the ratio)

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Armor of Division = X
Armor of most armored battalion = Y)
X = (0.4 x Y) + (Y/21 x 0.6)

woeful pollen
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Oh god we have gone to mathing...

azure crow
woeful pollen
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Run for the hills!

azure crow
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but my algebra was flawless

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I assume this means that there is a HUGE difference between the AT company vs battalion

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in terms of piercing

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obv AT bats are not spammable like companies are

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it seems like for every inf company you add it gets EXPONENTIALLY harder to reach unpennable armor against an AT bat which makes sense

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and higher and higher armor targets to reach become totally unsustainable

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I have to look up more algebra to find us the right algebra to see if space marines are guaranteed trash or certified opie but it seems like they are probably not opie anymore

woeful pollen
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So its better to have a AT Company and not battalion or did I get that flipped?

sharp phoenix
sharp phoenix
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And piercing isn't the only issue. An infantry template with support at/aa has very low hard attack to do damage to said div

woeful pollen
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Thankee for clarificiation.

sharp phoenix
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so a base inf div with support at 1 has ~25 piercing

image.png
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If you add 1 line it jump by 3 then the increase in piercing, decreases exponentionally with each additional

image.png
azure crow
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@sharp phoenix

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Need to find the formula for piercing to see how it would work with a company

sharp phoenix
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Is the 128.4 the piercing value you calculated?

azure crow
warped condor
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tank battlation armor or division armor?

azure crow
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against '39 at mind you

azure crow
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with a 128 armor tank bat

sharp phoenix
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So the tank template?

azure crow
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you would get to 52 divisional armor

azure crow
sharp phoenix
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lol not feasable tbf

image.png
azure crow
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if it's a mix of older and newer equipment there is some slight degradation of the division's average armor

azure crow
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now just need to math out the bat vs company diff

warped condor
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does that take into account whether the nonspace div has enough hard attack to beat the space marine div?

sharp phoenix
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If I would use one it'd look like this

image.png image.png
warped condor
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okay so use aeducans space marine template, and lets figure out what template would reasonably beat it

sharp phoenix
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this is how I'd counter it if they were messing me up

image.png
azure crow
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yeah in a 1v1 you probably would want to spam AT bats to punish

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but

warped condor
azure crow
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it's cheaper to spam out divisions without expensive tanks that die to the AT, long run viability is not high for the space marines IMO

azure crow
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no damage reduction for the tanks

sharp phoenix
warped condor
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its piercing is lower than armor though?

sharp phoenix
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aka 100% damage

azure crow
sharp phoenix
warped condor
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I misread the template

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was looking at tank armor not div armor

warped condor
sharp phoenix
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Yeah, that's rosa's point. With new update armor is averaged

azure crow
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because even partial piercing degrades a lot of your armor's damage reduction, or could even negate it

woeful pollen
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So what I am hearing is having tanks in infantry divisions isn't worth it.

sharp phoenix
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That's what I was geting to, it still is bc math

warped condor
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100 AT per division = 500 production cost

50 medium tanks = 935 production cost (not to mention the 24 light tanks for the armored recon)
24 Light Tanks (shitty cheap ones) = 60 production cost

azure crow
sharp phoenix
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50 mediums x 18.7 ic = 935 ic
vs
96 at x 5 ic x 2 divs = 960 ic

sharp phoenix
sharp phoenix
azure crow
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why not just 1 AT plus an arty bat?

sharp phoenix
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I mean, the soft and hard are just so low. Idk for sure just a guess

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If you assume 1-1 and they trade even then yes, at is more efficient

azure crow
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seems like in terms of scalability the economy war is on the side of AT

warped condor
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true - but you only need space marines where youre pushing. you'd need the AT in every div (unless you plan to manually follow the space marines around with the super AT boys.

sharp phoenix
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Currently testing

sharp phoenix
warped condor
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seems like allowing space marines just means people will be forced to include AT in the base infantry templates. I could go either way on whether that bothers me at all.

sharp phoenix
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german space marines, poland at

image.png
azure crow
sharp phoenix
azure crow
sharp phoenix
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i ran it for like 2hrs, so not enough data

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currently training and trying with max vet on both

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but enemy losses are estimates and I can't see when I switch to poland

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2nd battle

image.png
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actual losses for pol

image.png
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so lines up perfectly surprisingly

azure crow
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wild lol

warped condor
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I think the production cost value of what is lost is higher on the german side there

sharp phoenix
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but they took the tile

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and you should lose more on offense

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pol won

warped condor
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lose 3 medium tanks per tile, thats 6% of the tanks in the div. 5 tiles and youre at 30% of the tanks gone.
idk, im still not convinced either way - which leaves me leaning towards "let people build what they want until it becomes an obvious problem"

sharp phoenix
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2v2 ger won again

image.png
azure crow
# sharp phoenix 1v2

as USSR main this is music to my ears, the amount of tanks I could swallow by spaming AT in every division while losing like 5% of my country = by by nazis

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(if the germans went with space marines rather than armored spearheads)

sharp phoenix
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that is also full entrenchment vs no planning bonus, so more skewed towards germans in reality

azure crow
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right right, but I never meet the germans on the line of contact lol

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come through to the stalin line and try to keep it rolling and that should be way harder

sharp phoenix
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If anyone's curious, 2atv1sm on attack lost

azure crow
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yeah that makes sense

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AT way less good attacking than defending

sharp phoenix
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Is what I expected

azure crow
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this is all making me very interested in the idea of using historical soviet division templates, they had super fucked divisions

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with like 9 inf bats

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2 arty

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1 AT

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and no tank 'divisions', independent corps size formations with a few tanks bats and a mot inf bat

sharp phoenix
azure crow
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lol

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devs make soviets meta

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devs confirmed descendants of Vorshilov????

sharp phoenix
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Ok so no, no space marines. If that's the consensus that's fine. It then becomes a problem of people need to know/be taught how to counter them bc vs non at inf they will just roll

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with no at the sm overran and killed the inf instantly

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Which also adds a level of "meta" to ops games and widens the skill game. Not much, very simple. But if someone doesn't know, they will get rolled

azure crow
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easy to explain to people

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"this is ww2, you need AT because they can bring tanks"

woeful pollen
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I will put on a Historical class on WW2. SOTT: WW2 (HOI Edition)

azure crow
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"you know how bad it is for you as a rifleman when a tank shows up in an op? yeah put 5 mils on AT and give your poor soldiers a break."

woeful pollen
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haha

sharp phoenix
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imagine if we had 96 tows

azure crow
woeful pollen
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Curious to see how the next game goes with this now.

azure crow
woeful pollen
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Ha!

azure crow
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enough to have like 20 40w armor divs at one point, was extreme

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ofc my tanks were no match for @sharp phoenix

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but they were useful enough

woeful pollen
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Nice Nice

sharp phoenix
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Here's my original proposal, edited after initial feedback.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WFRR5_H8K9CDoIG9t4vLfPblhkduHJoaxBYmtXqTJTc/edit?usp=sharing

Feel free to agree or disagree with any or all of it and add comments in the document or in the channel.

Google Docs
Ops HOI IV Ruleset Proposal

Ops HOI IV Ruleset Defining “Historical” Historical games are intended to place players on a roughly historical path and then allow the game to progress in the way those players see fit. Put simply, the term “historical” is intended to mean that countries should maintain their historical ideo...

mortal remnant
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@sharp phoenix if you ask me the real fix to tank balance is banning all tanks under 80% reliability for majors

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Or 70% or something. Just any reliability value that makes Pierce abuse possible

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So people HAVE to go heavy tanks or build for reliability if they want that late game invincibility

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And if Canada / Hungary wants to make baby Maus tanks then they can I guess

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Also if you ask me I get the impression Paradox never intended to allow planes to reach agility 1 but most viable bomber builds tank agility past 1 (hard floor) which I find rather weird and “exploity”

summer lynx
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Are you upset I kicked you out of the Pacific with 4 9-1 Marines w/ no armor or something (read I just did a few naval invasions and wound up at Okinawa) <-- We made a decision at start not to defend the pacific, and we knew that you were space marine building so we left out as you ran out of supply on the island due to logistics issue there
@sturdy cave @teal meadow

mortal remnant
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but if everyone thinks I'm a garbage player that cheats on rules I don't know exist then maybe we can not uber stack Axis next time

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or better yet

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just ban me

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make everyone happy ablobderpy

hazy creek
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I'll be honest I thought Axis was losing 😮

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I don't think we need to ban anyone here :3

azure crow
# hazy creek I'll be honest I thought Axis was losing 😮

It did seem like the germans were reaching the limits of their offensive capabilities, our guards rifles with AT bats were blunting the armored spearheads way more than in the early war and the med was under total allied control. Best guess for that game would be Japan capitulates in '46 and Germany in '47 or '48 (depending on whether or not the Red Army needs to make it all happen on their own)

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Of course nobody would want to suffer the 20 desyncs we'd have before hitting that

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But my impression was that Japan was on its last legs and Germany still had gas in the tank for a real fight but was outmatched in raw economy

summer lynx
# mortal remnant It's not that hard to build ports lol

Its not hard to be a shitty human and trash talk constantly on a friendly game with friends? Either give feedback as a decent person or be quiet. I'm too old for this shitty behavior and don't care at this stage on your despicible hostility towards another Ops member.

mortal remnant
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weren't you the one constantly talking about the emperor or whatnot

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the only "trash talking" I remember saying about the Pacific was A: when you decided that I shouldn't play the game by doing take the phillipines and just not declaring after Aeducan said I had to wait EXPLICITLY for Japanese declaration to actually join any war in the entire match, and B: I poked fun about how Japan had had like 6 players by saying another Shogunate takes the reigns or something of that nature

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and I'm pretty sure A was in allies comms

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oh yeah also C: when I had to hunt down the IJN in the docks of Hiroshima

summer lynx
hazy creek
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I think we should just move on, reset, and try again next time ❤️ One thing I realized is that I never even dare to play any of the majors as I feel there is a big pressure for those people to be really good and responsible to make the best choices and execute the best strategies (otherwise the rest of their faction loses). I still manage to make my own entertainment and fun playing minors, but I am realizing I actually never did even a single singleplayer playthrough with a major as I perceive it as something significantly more difficult and with high skill level required (despite reading a lot of guides that say one should just play germany as it's fairly straightforward and easy (in SP))

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My next try will be playing a government in exile. Like Poland, the Netherlands, Ethiopia or Norway, I think

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Or some neutral country and becoming an arms dealer without ever participating in the war🤔

summer lynx
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I approve your Sweden play

gray bane
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Could we have some sort of “if one team has more players, then don’t hot join them?”

gray bane
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As a guideline, doesn’t have to be a hard rule

warped condor
# gray bane As a guideline, doesn’t have to be a hard rule

balancing should almost always be the goal. but I think one team having more players is rarely the deciding factor. much more important is who is playing what.

a really strong germany and italy player can probably do just fine vs 5 or 6 ally players (thinking UK + common wealths)

woeful sun
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are we considering allowing space marines?

mortal remnant
mortal remnant
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Oh yeah another rule I just thought of maybe we should add a rule that the US/Brazil cannot send troops to Europe/Africa until after they join WW2?

summer lynx
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Space Marine template should be seen as a exploit as you give your troops extra armor and the game mechanics won’t differentiate infantry and armor.

warped condor
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not sure if you had a chance to read all the discussion/math above - but it seems space marines were quite nerfed.

Div templates with AT Support companies are likely enough to counter; div templates with AT Battalions seem certain to counter.

the only real point of contention is if we want to force people to need to dedicate a bunch of mils to AT to counter the possiblility of space marines

keen edge
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Think I just had a stroke seeing all that math

summer lynx
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I read everything, it is still an exploit nerfed or not. You’re expecting minors to build AT with the x amount of factories they have

warped condor
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its not an exploit though

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its working as the game intends

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of course infantry being supported by tanks have armor

summer lynx
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Yes but the armor gives the infantry armor bonuses. Point given is that it doesn’t differentiate

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Either way let’s go with it’s not a exploit

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It still adds a headache to minors and some majors that does not have factories enough

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Because the troops suddenly have armored bodies

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And far as I can see for every space marine stack you’d need 2x inf AT divs to counter it

warped condor
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I could be wrong - but I think divisons are taken at sum value when in combat. Its not "the troops have armor" its "the divison has armor"

summer lynx
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The sum is still too high the Math doesn’t math

warped condor
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it really sounds like youre agreeing with me lol

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"the only real point of contention is if we want to force people to need to dedicate a bunch of mils to AT to counter the possiblility of space marines"

summer lynx
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I’m not agreeing it’s not a exploit but I’m not going to argue it is when the main issue is the factories required to counter it

warped condor
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yeah thats just a historical vs quality of life game debate though.

bulgaria isnt meant to be able to hold up against a major powers strongest divisions

#

(not saying thats good/bad for gameplay, just reality)

summer lynx
#

My main concern is:

  • Factories vs gameplay
  • Stalemate if all major runs it
#

Oh and also

#
  • beginner friendly
#

That’s a big thing

warped condor
#

all good considerations.

but every game cant be perfectly beginner friendly. we do our best to accomadate, but every game cant be tied to the lowest common denominator
thats just gaming in general.
we expect folks to be patient and help new players and we set guard rails like balancing to avoid stomps

#

but its never going to be perfect

summer lynx
#

No but if space marines gets deployed and we’ve seen how it just steam rolls through all the beginners it becomes a factor do you want to spend 6h into a game just to be ripped apart because of a game mechanic design being as it is?

warped condor
#

im not sure

#

like I said

summer lynx
#

Time on screen vs touching grass factor

warped condor
#

its the only point of contention

#

as a hypothetical - if next game I host we allow them - I'd be sure to remind people that they should be including AT in their div templates.
if people still get stomped, or the mil cost seems to be exorbitantly higher for the AT than the tanks, we revisit it.

summer lynx
#

My input would be, make a vote but again as some said it’s up to the host to decide

#

Yes like I just said

#

We’ll see how the next games goes

warped condor
#

this was too many words for "I agree with Phoenix"

summer lynx
#

I don’t agree, I still think it’s an exploit. But I’m open for conversation and listen to pointers. We’re adults who can discuss

azure crow
#

You can go review my posts yesterday

#

I went over all of it

warped condor
#

I want a bettter sense of just how many mils would need to be dedicated to AT to account for the possibility of space marines at any front. cause that really is the kicker

woeful pollen
#

Sorry cat

warped condor
#

alwandy's point about minors getting steamrolled is fair too.
I stand by the notion that bulgaria isnt meant to be able to stand up to USSR/GER/US prime divisions.

but as far as gameplay goes, especially since newer players are the ones usually playing minors - it would suck for sure

azure crow
#

Given how few factories you need on AT to produce thousands of units, minors should have the least issues

warped condor
#

why least? relative to majors?

azure crow
#

You can make like 1200 a year with 3 mils

#

That's enough to equip almost an entire army with AT bats

#

If you're a minor you probably do not have an entire army

#

At least not pre-war

warped condor
#

sure but thats just a scale thing I think

#

the people with more mils will have large armies

#

#1177392747817209876 message

#

this template is 96 AT for a division. going to use that as a base to see how many mils would be required to get 24 divs AT'd up

azure crow
#

Yeah and unlike minors they need diversification of production, minors can rely on (to an extent) majors supplying things like tank divisions

#

Heck a minor could probably specialize in making space marines

#

Just have the Romanians swallow hungary or vice versa and then have them license a decent medium panzer from germany

#

And then the romanian space marine corps will be born

hexed hare
#

Who wants to run a 'quick' millenium dawn game

azure crow
#

A man whose profile picture depicts a two-gun suicide suggests a 'quick' game of millennium dawn? Yeah that checks out.

hexed hare
azure crow
#

Starting from 0 prod until mid '39

#

Obviously factory output is hardly consistent

#

but

#

USSR has massive stability fuck you penalties until late 39 most games

#

due to Tr*ts

warped condor
#

GER example where they'd be prepping for USSR/USA.

  • May 1941. 5 mils on AT.
  • 50% base production efficiency. (requires some tech to be researched)
  • Takes 15 months to scale up to 80% production efficiency.
  • End result: 2k AT in supply, producing 6 a day. (2.2k a year)

One year of 5 mils starting from scratch = 2k supply, 2k annual.
enough for 20 divisions.

worth noting this includes a handful of buffs that GER has at this point.

image.png
#

not confident most minors could match that. worth some thinking/testing.

#

(as was alwandys point. we can safely assume the majors wont have an issue with the production needs)

#

5 mils is nothing to the majors (though they would need 5 mils per army).

azure crow
#

Which minor are we talking about here though? Romania? Finland?

#

Most minors aren't under direct threat of invasion by a major

warped condor
#

definitely not finland, I kind of throw them into the "poland/france" bucket of

#

not worth playing

azure crow
#

You underestimate their power

#

They get insane national spirit boosts

#

+100% piercing

#

+25% hard attack

#

+25% defense on core territory

warped condor
#

is it ever enough to stop a competent USSR player from winning?

#

sincere question

#

I dont think I've seen it

#

but I dont play either often

azure crow
warped condor
#

I think I generally agree with your point though. Minors should be focusing on some kind of speciality attack, rather than holding huge swathes of frontline

brazen pivot
summer lynx
#

Or Japan with consideration its fighting China while trying to prep for a war with US Space marines

teal meadow
#

What is the objective of playing these games? Is it to enhance sense of community and allow people to have fun?
I think that a lot of times the fact that someone has to defend their strat against community comments is indicative of a non-eusocial mindset.
Now if the intent is to just throw up difficult games and let the noobs figure out the deep end fine by me; just trying to gauge what the community is trying to extract from the experience.

hazy creek
#

I am not really sure what people are arguing here. Minors can equip their divisions just fine. But they will not have 150 of them. So of course 1v1 they would lose because they are not many. If a major decides to force breaking a minor with the masses, the major is exposing themselves to not having those troops elsewhere so a different abusable weakness opens 🤷‍♂️ a major should be breaking through with tank divisions anyway and then the space marines don't matter

#

A minor can have comparable troops but in the long term won't be able to match production and manpower of the major so major will win one way or another long term if they want to 1v1

#

Yet that doesn't prevent a minor to cover their small border with comparable troops (at some point of game)

warped condor
# teal meadow What is the objective of playing these games? Is it to enhance sense of communit...

IMO, largely depends on who's playing and what they want to do do. I've spent hundreds of hours teaching people the game in very friendly/casual games (sometimes purely cooperate, zero PvP) - others have been more "competitive". there doesnt need to be a single answer. (nor should their be). just important important that folks are on the same page before starting.

  • the only universal rules are respect for others and their time.
  • the only ways to break these two rules are by being an ass, or by not adhering to whatever was agreed upon at the start of play.

the issue with balancing in this game is no matter how balanced the teams are, there are many scenarios where a newer player will inevitably be "1v1"ing a better playing in some micro-region. unless it is entirely cooperative, new players will always feel "thrown into the deep end", its the nature of the game. We do our best to mitigate that, but some of it comes down to how the game is designed, some of it comes down to people insisting to play certain countries.

ideally you balance the key "face offs" germany and ussr, uk and italy, japan and usa.

rancid robin
# teal meadow What is the objective of playing these games? Is it to enhance sense of communit...

The issue we’ve faced many times over the course of trying to stand up hoi 4 games, is that it has to be entertaining for both the new folks and the folks with 1000 hours in the game. At some point, the knowledge base that folks have is going to impose an “unfair advantage” on every single person who has fewer hours.

I don’t understand why we get to this point every few months, as the expectations of people haven’t changed, and unless the hosts lists out each individual rule they want to play by, the assumption should be whatever you’d like to do is fair game.

This is a very heavily skill based system, that takes time to learn the nuances, and a lot of it comes down to proper timing, things that can be very screwed up if the ai does something funny, or one of the minors screws up and brings Switzerland into the war for some reason.

The goal should be to enjoy the experience, learn something each time, and teach the players who have less knowledge rather than expecting them to know all of the stuff and things off the bat. It’s too unrealistic to expect every scenario to be written out in detail here. As in life though, the number one rule should be: don’t be a dick.

teal meadow
#

(I don't play many hoi4 multiplayer games so I don't directly have a solution or suggestion. I was just trying to reframe the conversation to be more productive than let's grind over every suspect mechanic.)

warped condor
# rancid robin The issue we’ve faced many times over the course of trying to stand up hoi 4 gam...

agree with all of this ^

veteran players should exercise restraint in the name of sportsmanship
new players should have reserved expectations in the name of humility.

also important to remember that some nations are "meant to lose", not only historically, but just "by the numbers". no one should be getting flustered when germany steam rolls france, for example. the numbers just arent in Frances favor. nations are not made equal. (which is in part why when I host I make strong recommendations to folks on what they should/shouldnt play based on history, their skill, and who else is playing what - all in the name of preserving fun)

I have 2k hours in this game and I constantly learn new (and relearn forgotten) stuff.

ancient burrow
#

All this HOI talk make me want to play again

warped condor
keen edge
#

I’m down to host a new player coop game this week where we all take allies or axis and go over templates and MP basics if others would like that. I think the big thing is people knowing the basic templates for Inf, Air Force, navy etc will set them up for a more enjoyable experience in Mp games

warped condor
#

I have 2k hours in this game and I constantly learn new (and relearn forgotten) stuff.

for example, I just learned that the defense stat also gives breakthrough bonuses apparently. why? cause paradox.

keen edge
#

Fun fact/tip for inexperienced people: you should never use starting templates for anything. MP games or solo

warped condor
#

I will not have you besmirching my "when the man in front of you dies, pick up his horse" default chilean divisions

keen edge
summer lynx
#

the number one rule should be: don’t be a dick. if only this was followed, the main issue is the attitude of "GIT GUD" "STOMP3D" and the constant hostility to others boils the cup over esp. with the other team. Hence a lot of people reacted on the division templates etc

#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

hazy creek
azure crow
# teal meadow What is the objective of playing these games? Is it to enhance sense of communit...

To reiterate something I said yesterday I don't think 'you will need anti-tank guns when fighting against an industrial powerhouse in WW2' is hard to explain to noobs. Might be a good idea to consider adding a 'free division templates' mod to our tiny mod list though (army XP is something I could definitely see people struggling with given the default templates lack of AT/generally being shit)

#

which that, as with everything in hoi4, does have a reason behind it, but it does also make multiplayer annoying when you're new and haven't played a country enough to know the precise focused and build order and division templates that you simply must have or else you get obliterated

warped condor
rancid robin
azure crow
teal meadow
# azure crow To reiterate something I said yesterday I don't think 'you will need anti-tank g...

So I'm not current enough in the HOI4 meta, which is why I was avoiding specifics.
I'm even trying to avoid specifics for what precipitated all of this (edit: because I don't have first hand info and don't want to wildly speculate). Im just trying to reground and say that in a group of people playing casually, even if a behaviour is historically/mechanically/etc justified if a lot of other people are complaining (and not just noobs) it's probably not conducive to an atmosphere of a good time.
I think that this is a clear case of arguing for community management and active moderation over more and more static rules.
That being said, anyone who doesn't like a strat is free to blacklist the using player. I've got a Google doc with dozens of people with whom gameplay is beyond the pale, like @woeful pollen who continues to refuse to give me feet pix like a jerk

#

(not that I want just any feet pix mind you. It's Nerf Skrev or nothin')

woeful pollen
#

One day....

rancid robin
#

The issue there is two fold:

  1. we’ve attempted community moderation and it was met with “why are we involving community management in a simple game of HOI, if my friends and I want to get together and play, we should be able to host whatever type of game we want to host”
  2. There are two sides to this, and both sides hold valid arguments. Management can’t intervene if there isn’t a clear cut expectation based on mutually agreed rules.
hazy creek
#

I just found a solution. We play a game where everyone is in allies and commies and crush AI axis. Anything goes. Crisis aversed. Time to move on

#

For those who do not like this there can be another game playing Axis

sturdy cave
#

I like hurting other Ops members

hazy creek
#

Spy plays Italy

summer lynx
#

spy is italian

hazy creek
#

We will need to field a naval invasion from Hawaii

#

And the goal of Italy is to prevent the Hawaii pizza abomination ever reaching the mainland Italy

teal meadow
hazy creek
#

hey, this is nonhistorical run

#

but you can fight the americans over it

sharp phoenix
sharp phoenix
#

The point of the ruleset is to provide a baseline. I believe the first rule is they can be changed by vote. It doesn’t have to be used in full or at all

#

And the reason it was brought up was because there was intentional exploiting in the last game. And the excuse was “I didn’t know that was a rule”. Because there were no written rules. Which is fair, so we fix that

rancid robin
warped condor
mortal remnant
#

From both supply problems and variable amounts of combat

warped condor
#

I didnt mean why would you need a variable amount

#

I meant - he tested it

#

with specific parameters

#

so I was curious why he didnt give the actual stockpile number

#

versus +/- 5k (which is 50 divisions worth)

fresh fern
#

only way to win in in hoi is to have the better meta

warped condor
#

isnt the nature of "meta" that there is only one "best"?

#

gamers and the word meta

#

name a dumber pair

sharp phoenix
sharp phoenix
#

It’s not tested. It’s acecdotal based on general idea of games

sharp phoenix
gray bane
#

Isn’t building AT guns into your divs good for fighting tank divisions aswell?

warped condor
rancid robin
rancid robin
# sharp phoenix The exploit was deleting encircled units. Not the space marines

Which shouldn't be tolerated, but its a feature in the base game, and has been for a VERY long time. It has to be agreed upon before hand that its not allowed. If the person is relatively new, they need to be made aware of the "rule" prior to calling them a cheater.

When Hernando deleted units within the first couple of time of us playing, he was made aware of the rule, and we moved on. Calling someone a "cheater" for not knowing this specific rule is fuckin crazy.

sharp phoenix
# rancid robin Which shouldn't be tolerated, but its a feature in the base game, and has been f...

It is still cheating. I did not know hernando did that. It is still cheating. Just because you don’t know it’s a rule doesn’t make it less of a rule. There is not a single exploit that I can think of that is more powerful. Your units are about to do die and lose all of their equipment. You say, how bout no. And get it all back. That is cheating. Especially when the person in question, behind closed doors,admits to doing it to piss off and troll their opponents. Then hides behind the “I didn’t know excuse”. If a true mistake. Fine. Move on, still cheating. If intentional. Still cheating. And will not be forgotten

sharp phoenix
sharp phoenix
rancid robin
# sharp phoenix It is still cheating. I did not know hernando did that. It is still cheating. Ju...

I dont know how to describe this take, except to say, if this is your opinion, we have nothing to discuss further. Holding someone to a standard, that we are not telling people what the standard is, is against literally every tenant of leadership here in our community.

If you dont want someone to do something during a game, you have to tell them. You cannot hold someone to a standard they do not even know about.

rancid robin
rancid robin
sharp phoenix
#

Agree to disagree on the cheating. You will not be convinced and neither will I. Even if I conceded that it is not cheating, I am not. It is still extremely bad sportsmanship

warped condor
#

this has been way too much rhetoric and hyperbole today for what really boils down to:

  • agree to rules
  • adhere to rules
  • do your best to have fun.
  • if something goes wrong, take it in stride and try to do better next game (both mechanically and in expectation setting)

anything more than this is people trying hard to find ways to be upset.
doesnt help to assume people are doing anything malicious. (even if you really think they are). give people benefit of the doubt, adjust the rules and communicate them well, and then try again next time. and then if rules are broken, and you can be confident they were understood, the hammer gets dropped.

all that matters is well communicated expectations are set at the start of the play.

#

for the next few games I host, the below will probably be the "ruleset" (edited/adjusted from the original posted whenever earlier today, mixed with what has been "my" ruleset when hosting). IMO, anything more gets burdensome. If someone uses space marines and they truly ruin too many peoples experience, I'll add them back to the rules for whenever I host the next time around.

Phoenix 15 Rules:

General

  • Strict adherence to historical ideology and factions (maybe we identify some exceptions/non-aligned, and they just declare by a certain date
  • No manual war justification until August 42 (exceptions for regional alliances to join their historical alliances on time)
  • Germany and USSR must agree to Molotov-Ribbentrop
  • No spamming max forts. Not setting a number. Just operate in good faith.
  • A sincere attempt should be made to balance teams. Even perfectly balanced teams can lead to unbalanced "fronts". Honest communication and a little grace is required to ensure fun. Balance considerations should include "face offs", player count, and player skill.
  • No deletion of encircled units or units about to be encircled. Objectively cheesey.
  • Incessant pausing will result in being removed from the game. These games already take huge amounts of time. Incessant to be defined by the host and gauged by fellow participants.
  • There is a difference between resigning in defeat and rage quitting. Those believed to be doing the latter will be given benefit of the doubt, but as in any community, will rub people the wrong way and result in not getting to participate in the future. Those resigning in defeat can rejoin as a different nation on the same side of the war. You should be making a sincere effort to "rescue the war effort" though, not giving up at the first sign of defeat. Shit attitudes and constant whinging will be met with ejection and mockery. You are adults, and no one is forcing you to be here.

Allied

  • No US involvement until December 1941 or until they or mainland UK are invaded.
  • Cannot deny Rhineland/Sudetenland
  • No support to Ethiopia
  • No allied troops on eastern front, no soviet troops on western front (this includes volunteers)

Axis

  • No Sea-Lion until after the fall of France
  • No Japanese invasion of USSR before capture of India, Australia, Malaya, Sumatra, Java
  • No GEACPS forces in Europe unless they've secured ports in Africa
fresh fern
#

game

keen edge
#

Anyone want to hop in a short MP game for learning/tips for MP games?

#

Ill be around for a few hours

bronze rain
keen edge
#

<@&984509893920817192> going to do a friendly "how to Hoi4 MP" session today for some of the newer or inexperienced players. You're welcome to join and learn so you feel more prepared for another game in the future

warped condor
#

step 1: join kings game, learn to be great
step 2: forget 80% of it immediately
step 3: deploy that 20% in a 2nd game with Phoenix at 2100EDT.

keen edge
#

Server: 90200907972490244
PW: Ops2051

surreal egret
#

is it just up?

keen edge
#

wym?

bronze rain
keen edge
#

We're just starting a MP How to/learning session

surreal egret
#

im down if theres room

keen edge
#

plenty of room come join

surreal egret
#

says you have another version of the game?

#

mine ^

keen edge
#

player led peace conference on

#

undeffen

bronze rain
#

@surreal egret

keen edge
#

Server: 90200907972490244
PW: Ops2051

ocean lichen
#

Announcement from the ReichFurherShip Gneisenau

Herr Field Marshall @ancient burrow is hereby charged with war crimes and failures as an officer.

As a Field Marshall he was responsible with the execution of the will of the Reich, and failure on all counts to deliver as a Officer and Gentleman of the Reich. His failures include such gross incompetence as failing to manage the logistical, political, economic, social and military attributes necessary to execute the commands given to him; in so forth as failing to allocate enough aircraft to the Luftwaffe, failing to execute a successful campaign against the Soviet Union, France, Great Britian, the United States of America et al, he failed to execute Case Blue, and Case Yellow. Furthermore, he allowed the Reich to be invaded from 3 angles, without offering the appropriate, minimal or necessary military resistance against the invading untermencsh, He failed in all levels as an Officer of the Wehrmacht and is solely responsible for the downfall of Germany and all its acheivements. Prior to Oddball's promotion to the Field Staff, Germany had annexed 5 countries in 12 months, yet within 1 year of his promotion, the Reich faced invasion from 3 sides, explain.

For his crimes and failures, he is sentenced to Death.

rich forum
warped condor
ocean lichen
#

We got it all back from Moscow though.

hexed hare
#

Long live Saddam and the fossil fuel industry

image.png
bronze rain
#

I remember it wasn't very playable since it hadn't been updated since 2021, but it looks like it got updated in Dec of 2023. Cool to see.

hexed hare
#

It got updated recently, some new additions to trees for middle eastern countries and enhanced economic drivers

bronze rain
#

Sweet

bronze rain
# hexed hare yeah

Wait, what did they actually add? The game still only runs on 1.10., which is from 2021, lol.

hexed hare
#

A lot over the summer

fresh fern
#

millenium dawn is like 2011 shaq

warped condor
#

<@&984509893920817192> any interest in a game starting at either of these times?

🇦 1300 EDT <t:1723741200:T>
🇧 2100 EDT <t:1723770000:T>

surreal egret
#

I wouldn't mind another small slow paced learning one

warped condor
surreal egret
#

👍🏻

#

Could be closer to 1500 / 1530 EDT for me today

keen edge
#

I am with white side on this. I could play but around 2:30-3:30 est. have to at least act like I work sometimes

candid garden
#

I am busy from 1-3pm EST but otherwise down for a match

sharp phoenix
#

I dont get off work until 6 cst

bronze rain
ancient burrow
#

I can play for 2 hours if we are doing 1300 EDT - dno what nation would be ideal for that/can coop too.

mortal remnant
#

I’m not allowed into regular lounge cat_sadclown

#

I’m not cool

warped condor
#

join a different one and ill drag you

#

@candid garden playing?

#

90200970808878081
ops25

mortal remnant
#

Can I join in like 15 min

warped condor
#

yeah shouldnt be a problem

hazy creek
#

I am in town but heading home soon and might join then

mortal remnant
#

Can you drag me @warped condor

#

What am I supposed to play

surreal egret
#

Jks love you really 🫂

mortal remnant
#

FYI this is reg

#

Im not even allowed to see the VC

#

@warped condor

candid garden
#

i will play just cant vc for the next hour booting up

mortal remnant
#

@keen edge

#

@someone

#

idk who told me

#

that I was sent a msg

#

in the VC

#

cus I CANT SEE TI

#

someoine told me

#

they sent me a message

#

in the VC

#

now

#

that's all well and good

candid garden
#

@[Ops] Katti Do you tend to send all mountain units to Spain or a combo of mountain and armor? Usually I do 4 mountain and 2 tanks since we get 6 volunteers off the bat.
[1:32 PM]
Playing as Soviets

#

from culper

mortal remnant
#

mountain for Spain is more useful than full tanks

#

way more org

#

@bronze rain

#

tanks are still good and stuff cus nobody in spain has AT

#

but you want mountain units to push the mountains

#

some of the best places to push as rep spain are mountain areas

bronze rain
#

I tend to push South to North first as Spain. Is that what you do or do you go North first? I am aware of the third break off that happens, so pushing from the South seemingly would be easier, is my thought process.

#

@mortal remnant

mortal remnant
#

nati spain volunteers spawn in the N

versed knot
#

?

mortal remnant
#

Ive said it before

#

ppl jsut dont care about the allies

#

in this community

#

its tragic

bronze rain
mortal remnant
#

FYI I didnt rejoin so I could get some work done

#

I was expecting to help babysit a UK player and then the entirety of the allies left so......

#

yeah

bronze rain
mortal remnant
hazy creek
#

I spent 4 hours today restarting singleplayer (like 5 times) as Czechoslovakia trying to go fascist before Germany takes a chunk of the country. I think I finally figured it out and now also got Hungary as a puppet and a chunk of Poland to the boot! 😅

Time to go sleep

warped condor
keen edge
#

Then you could retake Austria/hungry quickly and reform Austria-Hungry and be a decent minor/major for Germany

hazy creek
#

I started trying to do it peacefully but it was very time sensitive. Then I tried doing it via the revolution which was faster but still not great (I was trying to get to the german partner focus before germany demands Sudetenland but I just couldn't get enough support quickly).

Then I watched some video and realized that I should not be discrediting the government (decision) asap but more towards the end of the push for 50% support.

So I tried again and this time I went the peaceful way. Banned communism, I think I did one round of civil support (it dumps stability hard). I saved a bunch of PP by not doing the civil war path and got conscription sooner and started going for 300k troops. When I was roughly at 45% support I discredited the government and waited a bit to push for the 50%. Then I did the peaceful switch (at that point Germany was already justifying on the path to demand sudetenland). When I became fascist I realized I can ask to join axis and then when sudetenland fired I just denied it and papa Adolf couldn't attack a fellow axis member. I did Aggressive wars first and puppetized Hungary then asked about Poland but got declined and had to wait for Germany to attack and got a chunk of that.

Either way I did German Partner right after we finished with Poland which made Slovakia revolt. The good news was I kept all my troops (which is not the case with the civil war route)

#

To be fair I was practicing this because I wanted to be Czechoslovakia in MP just for the sake of it, which would mean being Fascist and on the German side. I think in a MP game it'd help if germany boosted ideology in Czechoslovakia so they can go the focus path without doing all the dance

#

Not sure if people would be ok with it in historical tho but I thought it is not an insane deviation

#

In MP would probably have to give half of Poland to Soviets tho 😅 in my SP I refused and broke the pact

#

So my main learnings were -

  • Civil war path is probably faster to flip to fascist but you lose troops and costs more PP
  • Getting to 50% referendum before sudetenland is doable if you beeline towards fascists from beginning and save discrediting government decision for the last push
  • Once you are fascist you can join axis (or potentially ask for non aggression pact with Germany) and deny sudetenland and germany won't attack
  • aiming to go for 60% fascist support to do german partner BEFORE sudetenland fires is unrealistic without external help
#

Another thing I realized is that nothing really happened when my stability reached 1% so I am wondering if you can just spam the civil support decision regardless 🤔 but still costs PP (although it gives very little if your support already is high)

gray remnant
hexed hare
gray remnant
hexed hare
#

yeah, as long as your interest expense isnt out of control

#
  • allies can provide bail outs
gray remnant
#

gotcha

#

sweet

warped condor
gray remnant
hazy creek
#

Is it the one where you can make arms supplier Iran? 🤔

gray remnant
#

i cant get the dam mod to load for some reason

azure crow
azure crow
#

<@&984509893920817192> Would anyone be down for a game at either:
<t:1723932000>

#

Or <t:1723939200>?

gray remnant
#

i would be down for 1 today

gray bane
#

I’d prefer the second option, but I might be hot joining either way

hexed hare
surreal egret
#

i would be down for another slow paced teaching game S1 time sunday?

fresh fern
#

2nd option

azure crow
#

okay so we have 2 votes for option 2 and 1 for option 1 so far

azure crow
#

<@&984509893920817192> looks like it's gonna be <t:1723939200>

mortal remnant
bronze rain
azure crow
#

<@&984509893920817192> The time has come to assemble!

#

(in the community game channel)

rich forum
#

I’ll put $5 on the Soviet player

#

Since I can’t join

sharp phoenix
azure crow
#

@fresh fern are you coming?

rich forum
fresh fern
azure crow
#

@warped condor gonna be joining us or are you on that tarkov grind?

fresh fern
#

minehey is forcing me to play ncaa with him sorry!

ripe knoll
#

just meme him to death

#

play Kansas chew clock wildcat

fresh fern
ripe knoll
#

so 8-5?

fresh fern
#

11-3*

wise lance
fresh fern
#

had a top 10 recruiting class 5+ 5 stars were signed

woeful sun
ripe knoll
azure crow
#

Server ID:
90201032445907998
Pasword:
123

wise lance
ripe knoll
#

who has the Hat

fresh fern
azure crow
gray bane
#

Am now here

azure crow
#

we have yet to actually begin

ripe knoll
rich forum
#

Good luck Soviet player!

azure crow
#

who's gonna tell him

azure crow
#

Game called, 1947, Paris Accords victory inevitable

image.png
rich forum
#

Whoever the Soviet player was, I am here to inform you that your positions have been terminated and investigations have been launched

gray bane
bronze rain
#

They surrendered within 24 hours of declaring war, lmao.

image.png
stuck bear
mortal remnant
azure crow
sharp phoenix
#

Game?

sharp phoenix
#

Game?

versed knot
#

We should run a game post op

azure crow
mortal remnant
#

<@&984509893920817192> Game soon be in Community Game or be square

azure crow
mortal remnant
#

Whats the modlist

#

just this?

#

ok

azure crow
azure crow
#

nvm standard modset

candid garden
#

so no road to 56?

azure crow
#

90201231951636510

#

ops123

mortal remnant
#

@versed knot are ya coming

azure crow
#

90201231953689630

#

ops123

azure crow
#

<@&984509893920817192> Game tomorrow at S1 start time, come one come all etc etc

#

<t:1724607000>

fresh fern
#

peak hoi gameplay

Screenshot_2024-08-25_010456.png
mortal remnant
#

Turkey strong

image.png
#

heheheh

sharp phoenix
azure crow
sharp phoenix
#

No one wants to join because they see noone here. But if you're interested and join, then more people join....

#

so.....

hazy creek
#

big brain

surreal egret
#

if someone holds my hand through it... yes.. 👀

mortal remnant
#

has daddy Aedacun come to beat his kids

sharp phoenix
#

@ancient burrow @hazy creek @fresh fern

sharp phoenix
#

@ancient burrow @fresh fern @surreal egret

#

@fresh fern get your ass back here

fresh fern
sharp phoenix
#

@icy ether @rancid robin

#

@versed knot @brazen pivot @summer lynx @sturdy cave @bronze rain @woeful sun !! @somber cradle

#

@keen edge

#

@haughty glade

fresh fern
#

might as well @ everybody

sharp phoenix
#

@primal prism

keen edge
#

Grandpas birthday today gonna be out of commission unfortunately

sharp phoenix
#

@gray bane

azure crow
#

90201251001048094
ops123

somber cradle
sharp phoenix
somber cradle
#

which mod do I download?

sharp phoenix
#

that's crazy

image.png
somber cradle
#

dont forget to buy the highest quality from turkey!

#

Chromium for sale!

mortal remnant
hazy creek
#

@rich forum after you left AI immediately attacked Norway and got pulled into a war vs all allies

#

and the nordics saw the light of democracy soon after

gray bane
#

(Australia is still communist but they are a weird little island that’s not exporting it so it’s chill)

warped condor
#

Chop Shop Security Detail:

@ancient burrow @stuck bear @pure schooner @versed knot

warped condor
#

(lol wrong thread, myb)

keen edge
gray remnant
#

may be an intresting mod to look at

fresh fern
#

i tried it, the mod is okay.

#

nothing special

sharp phoenix
#

r56 historical game?

azure crow
azure crow
#

<@&984509893920817192> react with the appropriate number to all times you could hypothetically make and I'll host a game at whichever time gets the most votes:
1️⃣ - <t:1725136200>
2️⃣ - <t:1725150600>
3️⃣ - <t:1725208200>
4️⃣ - <t:1725237000>
5️⃣ - <t:1725294600>

keen edge
azure crow
#

(I am also happy to do 2 games if the top 2 times are far enough apart)

azure crow
rich forum
keen edge
keen edge
#

so today or nah?

somber cradle
keen edge
#

It wont be for about 2 1/2 hours for me

#

but yea

keen edge
#

<@&984509893920817192> who is interested today for a game?

azure crow
azure crow
#

what of course makes it all even funnier is that Labor Day is on May 1st around most of the world because of the Haymarket affair

hazy creek
#

I am around today to play some for like 3 hours. The Monday and/or tuesday sessions are even better time, for a full session even without having to go to sleep at 3am 😄

azure crow
#

<@&984509893920817192> Meet in community game in 30 minutes!

gray remnant
#

road to 56 YES or NO

keen edge
#

@woeful sun @spark crater @candid garden @warped condor

sharp phoenix
azure crow
#

90201403845565470
ops1936

azure crow
#

90201404405455902

#

same password

azure crow
#

90201407156079646

versed knot
#

what year are yall on?

azure crow
sharp phoenix
#

axis win

somber cradle
#

Comintern draw

#

Allies Loss

hazy creek
#

Italian bicycles froze in Norway

#

Spain and Italy lost 300k troops in Norway. Considering I had like 8 divisions + 6 marine divisions the whole game I am gonna consider it a win. I didn't even get to play my exile government because Axis never managed to capitulate me and my 4 hero marines recaptured half of Norway and trapped Italians in the north. Good times

rich forum
#

so not a total loss

#

infact id say its a victory because all of the dominions and colonies got independence in the end

surreal egret
#

How did my Raj baby do?

azure crow
surreal egret
mortal remnant
#

Was there gonna be HOI today

azure crow
#

spending 8 hours on hoi4 2 days in a row would break the souls of most people, I would assume

azure crow
#

but on that subject, <@&984509893920817192> reminder that the plan is for the big game to be tomorrow at time 5, the time that got the most reacts, which is <t:1725294600>

rancid robin
azure crow
rich forum
#

The Raj was a champ

#

Unlike the USA

surreal egret
#

👀👀 I honestly don't know how, felt like I was doing jack shit all game bar researching 🤣🤣

azure crow
surreal egret
#

🤣🤣

sharp phoenix
azure crow
#

and the puppets spawned like 20 divs total

signal trellis
hazy creek
azure crow
azure crow
signal trellis
azure crow
#

how did one of your puppets spawn an armor div???

#

that was a meme and a half

#

like did they buy swedish mediums off the international market? kind of wild

signal trellis
surreal egret
#

Guess I didn't do good then 🥲🤣

hazy creek
#

Netherlands here I come 🫠

azure crow
#

you actually will be able to play for a while, you can defend your rubber planatations in Asia after the Germans steamroll you

hazy creek
#

Yup! I did a dry run yesterday to see how the tree goes

#

Is there any rules for the Netherlands? I would go the allies path into DEI game

#

So no stonewalling Germany or weird stuff

#

I also saw somewhere no flooding

#

Or maybe people don't care as long as the Netherlands capitulates

azure crow
hazy creek
#

Doing my prep work

rn_image_picker_lib_temp_68ab4a8d-5df4-4e2f-b9e9-d4af8f2b6c63.jpg
azure crow
#

@surreal egret @cyan creek @fresh fern <@&984509893920817192> the time is now!

cyan creek
sharp phoenix
#

@woeful sun

#

@fresh fern

#

@ancient burrow @gray remnant @haughty glade @brazen pivot

azure crow
fresh fern
#

no

azure crow
#

90201448245093406
ops1936

#

y'all are gonna miss some absolute insanity, sad!

azure crow
#

90201450860236830

hazy creek
#

It was an interesting game but I felt like I should have left 2 hours before it finished as there wasn't much play for me or not much to do anything about it just wait for soviets to come with their thousands of the tanks and planes

Genuinely curious what would one do in such situation.

#

I guess next time I should just rush heavy tanks and ignore anything else

#

There was no point in air with super UK having infinity air production and supplying russians with it too. There was no point in navy as Turkey joined allies and closed the strait. And even then UK had full dominance in mediterranean. Once the offense stopped on the fortress line past the river in Ukraine it was done and too late to research tanks to bust through it. And the sky had planes a tier higher from UK. So even if I made bombers we wouldn't be able to bomb it. So then pretty much from 1941 it was just waiting for allies to invade and russia to do whatever and push

I don't mind "losing" but I just felt there wasn't much game for me to do since that point beside clicking research and building defences and defending from naval invasions.

It was an interesting meme game tho

somber cradle
hazy creek
#

And it is also probably due to my lack of skill or the fact this was 2nd time I played Romania and as a bonus against Rosa. But am genuinely curious what to do at that point of game

somber cradle
#

Yeah despite getting my ass absolutely handed to me it was fun xD. I defentily need to learn more about this new tank designer shit and unit comp for tank devisions cause dear god tanks just aint hitting like I am used to

hazy creek
#

I guess having 2 people that can actually min max their stuff and know very well what they're doing on the same team (vs the rest of us) that lock down air land and sea + hotjoining Turkey that joins allies didn't help either. And super UK with whole commonwealth annexed.

It was a meme game, but yeah, it wasn't much play since like 1942 for me

somber cradle
#

I wouldnt put too much blame on you guys I definetly fucked kinda big several times lol

#

1: I didnt build heavy tanks to break forts
2: Forgot to queue trains early on for Barbarosa
3:Didnt do War Economy nearly soon enough
4:Delayed my fighter research way too much
5:Neglected navy all together (I was too worried about crazy dockyard UK xD)

#

Their where multiple failure points for me lol

#

those alone caused me to lose Spain and Japan was just icing in the cake : P

#

I failed myself more than any other outside influence

#

But I revel in the chaos its honestly more fun then just clean sweeping

hazy creek
#

Nah, it's alright dude. You did well!

I am just trying to figure out what to do next time if I feel like the game stalled and is just a waiting for the end. I wanted to leave a game a few times because it was getting late (it's 2am here now) and I was just sitting there and waiting for the end. And am wondering if next time I should just leave and use my time better

#

And then ofc there's the thing of doing heavy tanks as romania

#

Or maybe that's wrong too, no idea

somber cradle
#

yeah I think heavy tanks would definetly been the move for romania maybe even some anphibs for some Soviet naval invastion into crimea/caucases

#

A loss isnt a loss if you learn from it and kick ass next time

#

"learning oportunity"

#

: P

hazy creek
#

I first started with light tanks for armored recon. Then I wanted to do air but realized there's no point so I didn't even start producing it. Also went subs for mines. But that was pointless as I couldn't get out of Blacj sea. Then I started doing medium tank research but it was too late

somber cradle
#

I would definetly say focusing hard on a few select areas is best rather than spreading yourself thin across many and not being so good in each as a minor

hazy creek
#

Tbf I don't care about loss here. But like in a game of chess you give up when there's no point anymore and save your energy for the next game

#

Well yeah. I tried to do that. But each area I picked was hard stopped soon after

#

So I had to go to next one

fresh fern
somber cradle
hazy creek
#

It felt like Aeducan and Rosa were just playing with us tbf. Like we had 0 control over the game. And there is nothing wrong about it, they played their majors and they played them well, but that's the kind of game where I don't feel like my time is well spent as anything I do is futile and I know I can't catch up

somber cradle
hazy creek
somber cradle
fresh fern
#

i see, were you playing against a player ussr?

somber cradle
#

I am way more Soviet/Japan Coded lol

somber cradle
fresh fern
#

they def had at, at absolutely slams meds

somber cradle
somber cradle
fresh fern
somber cradle
#

proably should have had tank destroyers to

hazy creek
#

Anti tank

somber cradle
#

yeah lol

fresh fern
#

also you only had 400 soft attack i would have added 2 more tanks into your div

somber cradle
#

maybe should of juiced armor a bit more

fresh fern
#

or i would have just filled the last row with motorized/mech to keep the org

somber cradle
#

two more tanks and two less motorized might of been better

#

still would of had 39 org

#

with 35 combat width

fresh fern
#

it’s not a bad template tho, just seems like the ussr player went heavy with the anti tank

somber cradle
#

the "meta" has defenitly changed alot since my peak in like 2016-2020 xD glorious "tanks are tanks"

somber cradle
hazy creek
#

Also forts

fresh fern
#

usually if i know my opponent is using a lot of at i just use slow heavy tanks that can break the line

hazy creek
#

How many divisions would you field as a minor

#

Is like 4-5 enough for a spearhead?

fresh fern
hazy creek
#

Hmm.. ok

surreal egret
#

Hey, at least you didnt get a buffed country, still fuck it up completely, get help from hart, and still proceed to lose

fresh fern
#

there’s not really a set number that i aim for, i just field as many as i can build while having a decent stockpile

somber cradle
fresh fern
#

oof japan is rough sometimes

surreal egret
hazy creek
somber cradle
#

spam that arty to push through AI China

surreal egret
somber cradle
#

thats usualy a decent enough comp not the best percei

somber cradle
surreal egret
#

i went 24 width inf with 2x arty and some supp companies

#

cant mind which ones though

#

usual ones

somber cradle
#

that shit would eat chinese infantry ^

hexed hare
somber cradle
#

Yeah lol I like all the changes made to hoi4 combat tbh. It forces you to actualy use all types of units to be effective rather than 7/4 - 14/4 infantry and spam medium tanks

hazy creek
#

Adding armor?

somber cradle
#

armor or just parity

hazy creek
#

How do you know what templates enemy uses?

somber cradle
#

intel or look at the frontline to check

#

usualy you can determine their templates from that but by the time your at war you dont got much wiggle room without risking your frontline to equipment change

#

unless your simple just adding stuff

hazy creek
#

I guess I need to do intel more

somber cradle
#

rockets can be good to gives you lots of soft attack allthough kinda bleh against tanks of course

hazy creek
#

I read somewhere rockets are good for minors?

somber cradle
hazy creek
#

Due to lower cost to produce or smth

somber cradle
#

infantry against infantry yes but as soon as tanks show up you better hope you got AT units or your own tanks

hazy creek
#

I had AT in my line infantry

#

Another thing I need to do is really differentiate between line and attack inf divisions

somber cradle
#

Its all a balance the more AT you give yourself the less usefull your troops become agains infantry

hazy creek
#

Well.. the main threat was tanks at the end.. so I put in 2 AT+ support AT. But I also should have added more infantry in general

#

I had plenty manpower

somber cradle
#

Although as far as I understand it the meta is kinda (shit tier infantry with AT) and then some hell good tanks (heavies to break) (mediums to push the hole) (light tanks if your a psychopath like me)

#

most of your "manuvering" will happen with armor and specialized "fuck you infantry" divisions

#

I was way to generalzied in my build and suffered

hazy creek
#

See, that's what I did wrong. All my infantry (beside mountaineers) was same

somber cradle
#

having these "special forces" are goated for your push units since they get loads of buffs for terrain

image.png
hazy creek
#

Although it always goes same. I start with infantry. Add engineer support.. then recon (although they probably don't need that), then arti, AA and eventually AT

#

Supports thay is

somber cradle
hazy creek
#

I had mountaineers but they didn't seem to be that strong. Although I used them to push Turkey out of europe

#

They also had all those things + some arties IIRC

somber cradle
#

terrain map mode is your friend

rancid robin
hazy creek
#

To yeet myself off the game?

somber cradle
#

not many mountains here lol

#

marines would proably be better since their are tons of river crossings

hazy creek
#

I always forget marines are good for that, too. I always think of naval invasions as their use

somber cradle
#

I mean they are still good

#

after all ^

#

but that river crossing bonus for marines are realy great for the hard points on rivers

hazy creek
#

I read somewhere that mountaineers can give the biggest punch, which is kinda balancing the fact they have the least utility (no naval invasions or airdrops)

somber cradle
#

but since their isnt many mountains/hills you dont get to use all the buffs you get in the tech tree

hazy creek
#

Although most people seemed to opt for marines

#

I think another thing is I am not sure how to evolve my templates. Like when to switch to mechanized or motorized. Or if to switch e.g. motorized arty

#

Or if ever

#

Maybe it doesn't matter for line defense infantry

somber cradle
hazy creek
#

I think I shoukd have built more factories 🤔

somber cradle
#

generaly civs for atleas the first year then you can switch to mils

hazy creek
#

But hey. This was the first time I split my navy into smaller chunks and even used the auto refill function 😅

somber cradle
#

it takes like three years for civs to pay for themselves generaly

#

not sure if that changed^

hazy creek
#

I guess that applies for majors. 😬 I built longer

somber cradle
#

these are not hard rules and change based on the situation

hazy creek
#

Anyway. I should sleep

#

Night!

somber cradle
somber cradle
azure crow
azure crow
#

at 21w and 40 org

#

they are the death of axis mediums

#

terrible on attack ofc

#

but for holding the stalin line?

#

fantastic

#

I was actually very close to not shitting enough out in time, 6 months early barbarossa was scary

surreal egret
#

how do you even use the rail arty?

azure crow
#

it automagically engages anything in the circle around it

#

so you keep it on the frontline if it has good divs with it or 1 tile back and it will shell everything

surreal egret
#

so its a selectable unit ?

#

works similar to the attached planes?

azure crow
azure crow
#

it has a habit of following your army in aggressively stupid ways

#

for example

#

you took a port and it fell behind?

#

why catch up on land when it can go for a swim on a convoy and risk death by submarine?

surreal egret
#

a train... on a sub

#

youre shitting me

azure crow
#

which is annoying

#

better to manage it yourself so you can avoid the unnecessary naval crossings

surreal egret
somber cradle
#

The look of man about to get curb stomped by the onslaught of superior USSR and UK units

azure crow
# somber cradle

Keitel's face when the first 3 tiles of level 2 ostwall forts broke

somber cradle
#

the last words of such a man "Survive until 45...."

azure crow
somber cradle
gray bane
#

I have heard from the internet (and Katti) that line artillery is bad
Support artillery good

fresh fern
somber cradle
#

lol

#

line arty is great just not against tanks

sharp phoenix
#

Tell that to the german army

azure crow
#

great for attack tho

#

my new soviet lines with 2 at companies > my old ones with 1 line arty

#

(for my defensive 21w)

sharp phoenix
#

El alamain hold divs/half british army

image.png
#

The other half being that but swap 3 at for 1 arty

#

And the marines being a 3 arty variant

hazy creek
surreal egret
#

This is crazy

#

Also, is there a golden rule for div templates then? Or a good set of things to follow when making them? - last one I remembered was 20w with line arty but that seems to no longer be the case

woeful sun
#

maintenance supp on tanks/mech

#

shovels, recon, and supp arty is almost always a must-have

#

try to keep tank division org around 40

#

good defensive division width can be anywhere from 8 - 20, the larger the width the better it will be for offensive action

#

i try to aim for 30-40 width for tank divs

woeful sun
#

similar to the logistics supp comment - consider tailoring division width to intended terrain

#

you're probably thinking of the old 7/3 20w infantry, you can still use that of course but it's not as much of a staple these days

#

division designs are a lot more flexible and ranged these days

errant phoenix
#

For width on breakthrough infantry I always try to follow the guide posted above, so if I am gonna be fighting in a lot of marsh and mountains I make them 25 width or 8inf and 3arty and if I am fighting a lot in forest or jungle I try to make them 30 width or 9inf and 4 arty

#

For tanks 35width is often used for the good stats on plains but recently I have been making mine 30 since plains are so easy to break through anyways and for the better stats on forest and cities

hazy creek
#

What do you max on spearhead tanks? Breakthrough? Soft/hard attack? Speed? Armor?

woeful sun
#

soft att and breakthrough personally

surreal egret
errant phoenix
#

Easy Matienace is always a must because it makes production so much cheaper

#

I also believe in multiplayer piercing is super important which it really isn't in single player

#

Probably better to focus on soft attack and armor in single player and breakthrough and piercing in multiplayer

keen edge
#

And hard attack. Thats a good thing to have in MP breakthough divisions

woeful sun
#

guess i should have clarified, in single player it's almost always better to just stack soft attack, hard is relatively useless in sp

#

mp is a different story

surreal egret
#

found this, pretty in depth for beginners, learned a few things

https://youtu.be/QvHT121_lWQ?si=D-waK5J8U0ifJJ0y

YouTube
Hearts Of Iron IV
Hearts of Iron IV: Complete Beginners Guide

Hearts of Iron IV can seem complex and sometimes overwhelming, but today @hammotimee will guide you through the basic concepts that will rank you up from Cadet to General in no time! In this complete beginners guide, They'll be covering everything from setting up production to divulging the secrets on "How Navy Works". Study the guide general - ...

▶ Play video
strong jacinth
surreal egret
#

the memes of this jap 'opener' xD
https://youtu.be/8C47EaN-QXQ?si=71M_x4gPQC0Yph3x

YouTube
Taureor
Best Japan Opener for Hearts of Iron 4

This is my favourite opener for Japan. Quick, powerful and a fast route to world conquest. You should be able to replicate it as long as nothing strange happens in Ethiopia. If you try to use it, let me know how it worked out for you.

My Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/taureor
Challenges playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLO8ijwM...

▶ Play video
sharp phoenix
sharp phoenix
fresh fern
azure crow
hazy creek
#

Is there hoi todoi?

hazy creek
azure crow
#

personally I was debating throwing caution to the wind and

#

just joining a server straight out of the MP browser

#

like a true psycho

surreal egret
#

@azure crow

azure crow
surreal egret
#

Lmao gimme a few mins and I'll be there

#

Axis or ally?

azure crow
#

with randos

hazy creek
#

This sounds hilarious

#

Gimma a sec

azure crow
#

I'm going comintern Finland because the USSR guy seems like a safe bet for a normalish playthrough

#

the host is AFK so it should be ez to get in lol

fresh fern
#

playing with randoms is insane, mp hoi with randoms is unhinged

azure crow
surreal egret
#

😂 family just got home from holiday Rosa, might be a hot min before I get on

azure crow
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you may miss the boat on the insanity, sadly

surreal egret
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🥲

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Jokes on you, I've been insane for a long while now

sharp phoenix
azure crow
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"alt his, alt map"

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(host procedes to load his INSANE save file from jan 2 he made with console commands)

surreal egret
azure crow
# sharp phoenix You did not 🤣

the host's game crashed because he and 3 other countries all invaded spain and then the spanish civil war happened to his puppet afterwards, 10/10 game

sharp phoenix
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😂

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“Crashed” = rage quit

gray bane
errant phoenix