Wooting 64HE+ Module (suggestion)

[final harbor]

The Wooting 64HE+ Module, compatible with Wooting’s Alumaze and all other 3rd party 60% cases. It ships in the 60HE+ Module’s box which only requires a minor visual redesign. Because it comes without keycaps and is an unusual layout there is little choice for 3rd party keycaps but after a while there will be more. Wooting could open five/seven new molds to make their own keycaps compatible with this layout. The 64HE+ Module would satisfy the 65% enjoyers whilst keeping 60% case compatibility. The 64HE+ Module also comes with space split support.

I already preordered.

[final harbor]

If a 6.25U space bar’s stem is exactly centered a three way space split, 2U, 2.25U and 2U would be better. All of which would use 2U stab wires. Oh man, I’d love this.

[small summit]

this is still a 60percent moduke though not a 64percent

from what i understand the percentage means the area of the keyboard not keycount

[final harbor]

Well, this layout is referred to as 64%. Layout naming is all over the place in general though so it doesn’t really matter.

But yes, it’s the size of the 60% module. That’s why it is perfect as it offers 65% functionality while keeping 60% case compatibility.

and it seems easier to accomplish to me than an entire new keyboard altogether.

[final harbor]

“Five/seven new molds” LOL? More like 2/3.

[dawn brook]

If this existed in wooting, this is the one I'd have purchased.

[final harbor]

Same!!!

How about this:

[dawn brook]

That enter key is WAY to small for my liking.... and I can't think of a reason I'd use the insert key such that I'd want to relearn NOT hitting it when I use enter one of hundreds of presses a day.

But, other than that, I think it's ok.

Why split space up like that?

[final harbor]

I’d have a hard time getting used to that too but I do use Ins from time to time.

[final harbor]

Huh? More buttons = better right? 🤣

[dawn brook]

I could be on board with this.

The space bare wierds me out... but I'm not opposed. I just don't get it.

Why?
Maybe 60/40? OR.... 70/30?....
But also... Why?

Like, what would I actually use that for? Just an opportunity to remap? If so, I could understand.

[final harbor]

Yes, I’d use it for remapping.

[final harbor]

Can be anything as long as it maintains the right and left stabilizer location so it remains optional.

[dawn brook]

Ok, I see the reasoning. I don't yet know the stab standards or variations.

[final harbor]

As long as the stab locations are on the far right and left you can put a 6.25U space bar there without issues, if not, then you’d need a custom spacebar with different stab locations..

[dawn brook]

3 buttons can still function well from a single stab, left and right?

[final harbor]

3 buttons would have 2 stabs each but the left stab of button 1 and the right stab of button 3 would be in the same location as the stabs of a 6.25U spacebar making it easy to swap them out.

[dawn brook]

Thank you for explaining that.
I can see it clearly.
I imagine that this would require "screw in" stabs and (probably) a "stab carrier" plate that would utilize the L/R stab locations....

[final harbor]

It could be done with any stab mount I think as the location is unoccupied. :thumbsup:

[final harbor]

Bump. I really feel like Wooting should compete in the 65% market as there are many boards that offer 65% over Wooting’s 60%.

[dawn brook]

Quick mockup to note the changes you think make it a competitive idea maybe?

[sand quartz]

Pretty new 60HE+ owner here; I have the kit installed in a TOFU60 Redux and absolutely love the look & feel as well as the software. I would instantly buy a 65% version with arrow keys.

[vestal owl]

60he+ and tofu 60 satisfied customer over here👌

[civic glade]

Yeah, I would like to get one for wooting 64he too, cause as a programmer, I cannot stand with keyboard with arrow key. I do have a spare 60 percent case for getting such modules. Hope it will contains 8k polling rate and basically the same design layout.

[final harbor]

Triple spacebar split, 64HE.

It’s beautiful.

[final harbor]

Ugh, so close but not perfect.

Spacebar is shifted to the right sadly.

Wonder what inspired them to make a UI like this.

[restive relic]

only good thing for me here I see is left Alt placed closer to middle, so easier to press it as like modifier in games like dota etc. The rest is really not necessary, also not necessary how cramped it is, and will be annoying accessing like F keys with that 1.0 Fn placed in a misclickable/unintuitive position (also no point not to have dedicated F keys (exploded ofc), since they stack in height and don't add to centering/mouse space issues).
no real need to split spaces (kind of makes easier to double-space accidentally).

[final harbor]

Reason for compactness is it offers 65% versatility in a 60% form factor allowing for the use of 60% cases. All your other points are preference, to each their own. I don’t misclick a key because it’s 1u and I do like the look and use of split space. I don’t find a 6.25u key width necessary if I’m only ever using 2u of it, at most.

[restive relic]

I'm for reducing spacebar size ofc, just not split it (if possible). just add like two extra 1.25 keys next to spacebar, spacebar is reduced to like 3.75, and then this becomes the new standard for spacebars to include keycaps for etc (these extra keys would be Alt, and then old alts would become some new keys). (so you would on a standard layout have 4 1.25 keys left and 5 1.25 right)
with "misclick" it's never just meant that, but also the time it takes to click it, and how much you have to think about it - you might not misclick it much, but in exchange you will use more time/effort to click it.

[final harbor]

The reason I suggested the triple split spacebar is so that R-Thumb space-pressers gain two keys, L-Thumb space-pressers two as well and R&L-Thumb space-pressers gain one key, the middle one. Everyone would of course rebind the spacebars not in use so “double-spacing” on accident wouldn’t happen more than it would normally. Another thing is that many keycaps sets already include triple split space, although be it a different distribution, still. It doesn’t take me more effort or time to find keys on a 65% but that’s because it’s a small layout therefore didn’t take me long to learn.

[civic glade]

wait, can we actually get this?

[final harbor]

It’d be very hard to get outside of Asia. The layout is also quite odd as you can see in the pictures below the PCB.

[civic glade]

Yeah, that is for sure. I guess I will have to stick with the wooting 80 for right now

[final harbor]

The 80HE got 8KHz where that has 2KHz scanning and 4KHz polling iirc.

[fast plover]

I agree, definitely the superior key setup. Waiting on Wooting to release their own.

[final harbor]

Holy!!!

If Wooting makes that with 8KHz and with a chip that has more memory/RAM I’d be endgame for so many people.

[restive relic]

again, not great because no intuitive low Fn placement. and also lacking F-keys is big deal for most. also intuitive Del key is big deal.
also additionally not great for ISO use, no bigger right Alt
(there Del sticks out, so more intuitive, but not something Wooting would do)

[final harbor]

“No intuitive low Fn” it’s exactly where it has always been just 0.25u slimmer. Like 60% layouts, this is not for those that want more than 65%. This can be made compatible with ISO too, just not without sacrifice (ANSI is no different). 😉

[restive relic]

just give up on this, wooting did 60HE as compatible with everything as they could.
it's not like: If there is dedicated arrows - suddenly a lot of people are more interested
no, F-keys are very important too, also because of Shortcuts like Ctrl + F8 or something, really annoying to press without dedicated.
(and the other things I mentioned add up too)

[final harbor]

That’s exactly how it is. Why do you think people prefer the 80HE’s layout over the 60HE’s? Because it has keys the 60 doesn’t have. Many prefer 65% over 60%, 64% is the best of both worlds, utility of a 65% while maintaining 60% case compatibility. A while ago 64% didn’t exist, right now there are already 2 64HE boards. If that doesn’t tell you enough I don’t know what will. 😂

[restive relic]

Important in 60 layout: intuitive Fn and Del placements (Wooting 60HE does this pretty well, but Del not perfect (but here Del is not intuitive either)).
as long as you don't have this fixed, it's subpar to 60HE

[final harbor]

Where exactly is Del on a 60%?

[restive relic]

Fn + Backspace, easily accessible, without looking or misclicking on 60HE, pretty fast usage

[final harbor]

So because Fn is 0.25U slimmer but in the same place as it always has been, Fn becomes counterintuitive to you?

How about a dedicated Del key above right arrow? How’s that?

[restive relic]

Fn is not in the same place at all, what you saying

Fn key for many uses, not only for Del must be intuitive, easily clicked
Wooting did best overall, to make stuff as easy as possible to use

[final harbor]

That’s true actually, I have my Fn on the right of space. 😂
Fn would be next to Space, next to Left Arrow or above Right Arrow in a 64%.

[restive relic]

that right Alt is actually useful for ISO users, you probably forget this
Alt Gr is used for @ $ € and { and [ etc

[final harbor]

I think your intuitiveness is just getting used to anything.

[final harbor]

AltGr would still be there.

You’re gonna tell me you use Right Control too?

I am Dutch, I know what AltGr is used for.

In ISO 60% you have AltGr, RWin, Menu and RControl.

[restive relic]

you're just kind of detached from real kb users. you specific adaptations that you now see as normal, wouldn't be normal at all for almost anyone.

thing is, even with smalelr spacebar, is something they should do yes, all lower keys should just ideally be 1.25 (but arrows can be 1.0 ok), there is still the issue of unituitive Fn placed somewhere that is not next to spacebar or not in a bottom corner. (and ofc issue with unituitive Del placement/usage)

[final harbor]

Which adaptations exactly? A key 0.25U slimmer, a key 2U from where it normally would be, well yes but that’s hardly detached from real keyboard users. Most would get used to that in a short time, if they preferred the benefits of the layout that is of course. If they don’t, they’d use a different layout.

[final harbor]

Okay, you didn’t mention 1U RShift so I presume you do not use it. You can drop RShift entirely which most would and shift the arrows 1U to the left.

[restive relic]

no we talked about this before, that i used RShift, home row users in general use it

[final harbor]

So 1U shift is no problem for you?

Or you didn’t notice it yet?

[restive relic]

I mean yeah, because it wouldn't feel good first of all, wouldn't look very good, and also harder to use

I ordered JIS, and I'm learning FK home row shifted to right, because I don't want to convert a key next to shift to Shift, also because no keycap for it. similar situation.

[final harbor]

Okay, your point is “people” wouldn’t prefer 64% over 60% if I understood you correctly. It seems a lot like a projection. I think many who prefer 65% over 60% would be very happy with 64%.

[restive relic]

people would prefer something that is easier and more intuitive to use, and also something that looks pretty standard.
60HE already does it good enough (for mostly gamers), and your suggestions overall are worse than this.

[final harbor]

Hmm, the 80HE doesn’t look pretty standard.

How do you know what people would prefer?

[restive relic]

60HE already fills that gamer niche, your keyboard does a lot of things like worse, one thing better, places it between these 2 use cases, doesn't do either well.
people that want easier overall usage than 60HE would just buy exploded 75% or 80HE, very few would go for this 64%
no more time chat tho

[final harbor]

I wouldn’t call 60% a niche anymore, 65% isn’t either. A 64% has shown to be for people that prefer Arrow Keys over a 2.75U RShift, RCtrl, and RMenu while maintaining the compactness of a 60%. Why do you think 65% keyboards exist if everyone that didn’t prefer a 60% would just “go buy an exploded 75% or 80HE”?

Take care!

[restive relic]

but you for example already took wrong path to begin with here. You must instead have reduced spacebar to like 3.75 (place for 2 more 1.25 keys), and then from this done the other keys etc.
splitting spacebar is just very silly thing to do, without a good reason. So I suggest now to start designing from this instead.

[final harbor]

Brotherman, triple split space is optional, you can use a 6.25U spacebar like I told you before already.

It’s just for those who prefer one or two extra buttons.

Like myself.

[restive relic]

but you could so easily have space for buttons and not have everything be so cramped as well. also because smaller spacebar is just better objectively (not just because of size of spacebar, that's like the last better thing, but because of more bottom keys possible and moving Alts closer to middle is better for multiple reasons), it's just by convention that we haven't reduced it on standard layouts, and compatibility.

[final harbor]

A smaller spacebar isn’t objectively better, some people press space with their right hand too. Hence triple split instead of double. A 2U spacebar is all I need and I find 6.25U spacebars a waste of real estate.

[restive relic]

you can still press a smaller spacebar with right thumb, what you talking about.

ok, but now I must really go

[final harbor]

Not most, that’s the reason why I asked so many different people.

It’d be counterintuitive to them. 😉

[final harbor]

Take care!

[restive relic]

you found some anecdotal evidence for it? 1 out of 10000 people maybe

[final harbor]

From this server I asked maybe 6 people.

[restive relic]

just please stop, it's all just anecdotal and not even some requirement that people have. anyone can literally press a 3.75 spacebar with any hand etc. it's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

[final harbor]

This is among the funniest discussion ever had. You find others’ preferences silly and your own preference fact.

[restive relic]

well 3.75 is a bit on the low side, but 4.25 is definitely enough

[final harbor]

Why is something you dislike “unintuitive” and if others dislike the same thing you call it silly.

Seems like someone is living in their own world.

[restive relic]

you find 1 in 1000 for which like 4.25 spacebar is too short (but they also would easily adjust to it regardless).
for example I bet there is more people that dislike this long wasteful spacebar than those that have issues with it.

why are you basing your product on 1 out of 1000 that have issues with it, but can easily adjust

[final harbor]

So if I understand you correctly, it’s only silly or unintuitive if the majority feels the same?

[final harbor]

That’s why it’s optional and not a real product, yet.

[restive relic]

that's not the main reason at all why spacebar is not reduced, it's just keycap compatibility the first, and being a bit non-standard for most (but something they would get used to, see JIS 4.5 spacebar, no one complains)

you realize like people with disability often have some custom keyboards made for them or use something really custom, you don't have to listen to these people to make a suggestion regarding a product that wooting makes. something that will benefit many more people than not those with disabilities.

[final harbor]

This is comedy at this point.

Many people do not press the spacebar exactly in the center, most either on the left or right side (this is factual). So I can understand that a 2U, or 1.75U width decrease would be quite the annoyance to some. Do you understand that too?

That’s the reason I opted for a triple split optional spacebar instead of a double split in my suggestion.

[restive relic]

you mistakenly think that spacebar should be 2u, obviously not this small, at least 3.75, up to 4.5

2u is your weird preference in the other direction, that also only 1 in 500 share

[final harbor]

Read again.

You misread.

Then answer.

[restive relic]

it's objectively better to reduce spacebar to at least 4.5 - THIS IS YOUR STARTING POINT HERE. especially when you're designing a 64% with limited keys on the bottom right etc.

[final harbor]

Like I said, it isn’t objectively better and for that reason I opted for an optional triple split spacebar so people that press on the right or left have no issues.

[restive relic]

yeah those 1 out of 10000 that press right or left, that can still press right or left on a 4.5 spacebar. my god..

[final harbor]

You can continue to live in your own world or you can look at people typing. 1 out of 10000 press the spacebar directly in its center.

1U shift won’t be a problem for you right? I mean you can still press it.

🥴

[split briar]

What is the purpose of three space bars? Sure you could remap, but I feel using common buttons with your thumbs is strange.

Main reason I prefer the 80he is because there are more buttons I dont have to remap. This does seem like a decent niche solution without having to increase module size, but I think the button functionalities need some work

[final harbor]

It’s optional, so for those that would want a 6.25U spacebar they can still use it. It’s for remapping. For some it might take some time to get used to but once you do it can come in handy in many different fields, typing, gaming and productivity. A 64% layout isn’t for those that want the F-Row or a full nav cluster. It’s for those that want compact versatility, a 65% in a 60% form.

[restive relic]

here's a better version already, but still current 60HE is better (additionally because you shift all letters on the Shift row 0.25 to the left, this is not ideal at all when changing kbs often).
this is like as good as it gets, trying to fit arrows, doing intuitive easy to press Fn, keeping Alts nice 1.25 size, keeping Shifts nice 2.0 size.
the "< >" key is close to its previous position on ISO, and also very little used key, especially in gaming (on ANSI you would get like a blank key for this, and some other options, like Menu and Fn (second layer Fn, without having to press the other Fn)).
Still fast and easy to press Del by Fn + Backspace (something I also forgot to mention, having some 1.0 Del cramped together easily misclicked (often when you don't even intend to press it), can be very disruptive, since Del key deletes stuff and files, so this way is also safer).
my conclusion is still that any attempts to do some dedicated arrows, fitting into 60HE box size, is an inherently failed way to do it.
tags: 64HE, 5.25u spacebar

[restive relic]

Seeing another problem ofc, that now Arrows become less intuitive, harder to locate, so it's either easier locating Arrows (+small RShift) or Fn. It's inherently flawed because of many things.
(I think arrows just need to be maybe a bit like concave (maybe with some additional texture) (how gaming kbs did WASD before, but not as extreme), so additional 4 a bit more concave arrow keycaps, so you intuitively locate them (it's additionally important here because the Up arrow is close to the 2 keys you use a lot, the left of it and the RShift))

[final harbor]

You’re continuously using “better” subjectively while presenting it as an objective truth. You either deliberately do this believing it strengthens your points or you do not understand the difference between a subjective and objective truth. I’ve told you before a few times now, there’s no need for this, no need at all.

1. R2’s 0.25U offset is inherent to the 64% layout. I can understand this would be an annoyance to those who switch keyboards often, however, I don’t doubt that it’d become second nature in no time.
2. Intuitiveness is subjective, so whatever is intuitive to you may not, and most likely isn’t, the same for others. I’ll tell you this: The reason I use Fn on the right of space instead of in the right corner is because of my makeshift dedicated arrow keys (see attachments) and because it allows me to easily access the entire Fn layer with one hand instead of two. You can easily tell the difference between Space and Fn, so it could potentially be intuitive for you as well. 😉
3. I am not a Right Shift user, but I can imagine Right Shift being 1U further away would bother them greatly. I don’t think the 64% layout is for Right Shift users. A 1U Shift is usable, sure, but it’d take a while to get used to.
4. It would be impossible to find a 3rd party keycap set with the Del key where Epomaker put it. I’d prefer that key to be blank, open to remap to the user’s desire (same goes for RShift).

Lastly, some points you make against the 64% layout I can understand; I’d say the layout isn’t for you, but then you suggest a 4 or 5U spacebar and call those who’d be opposed to that “silly”. You believe when you make a point it’s the absolute truth and when someone else makes that same point against your suggestion it’s “silly”, that’s textbook hypocrisy, just letting you know.

I’d imagine this is what a 64% ISO layout looks like with the optional triple split spacebar (see attachments). I do not use ISO, so I do not know which keys can or can’t be sacrificed.

[restive relic]

my god 😄

[final harbor]

my god 😄

[restive relic]

let's make a poll here, choose your best option, will be C and mine D (ISO version, since ISO is the real test for this).
(you make the poll, vote with C, I vote with D as first voters)
(also I guess link to your description of yours and my description of mine)

[final harbor]

If you want to suggest your own layout be my guest but the 64% layout already exists. A non optional smaller (5U/less) spacebar will undoubtedly be an annoyance to everyone who presses space on the left or right side. Like I said previously; I don’t use ISO so I do not know which keys can or can’t be sacrificed. That’s something for Wooting to decide if they ever make the 64HE a reality. I’m also quite certain nobody would read either of our essays. 🤣

[restive relic]

goodness 😄
you seem so tunnel-visioned and hard set on your 3-split spacebar, and in general a layout that is made pretty much just for you personally and not as many as possible people (and you don't even consider ISO, which is the first layout that must be considered, since it's the hardest to design for), that you justify it with a lot of nonsense.
Like I said already, and something that should have been clear to you from the very start, designing a 64HE in 60HE box size, with dedicated arrows - Spacebar length must be adjusted - the bad things with it is completely minimal compared to the benefits to the overall layout. You also make up a strawman argument "annoyance to everyone who presses space on left or right side" - this is so silly, you must see it yourself, but it supports your own layout and 3-split so you ignore it. First of all, there is no issue pressing this 5.25u spacebar on left or right, it still presses very well, and very easy to get used to (instant for 99%), and secondly like no one (maybe 1 in 10000) presses spacebar on the very left or right edge (and would still easily be able to adjust), this is some anecdotal nonsense.
"That’s something for Wooting to decide if they ever make the 64HE a reality" - yeah, they would want to make the best looking, best functioning, most standard layout as possible, not something tailored to your personal and also only ANSI preferences.

But all this is in vain regardless, there is too many inherent issues with this layout, that it will never happen - the first big and I think unovercomable issue is shifting R2 keys 0.25u to the left - this is just something Wooting would never do - way too many people use different kbs interchangeably, this will be really annoying for almost everyone. Then there is ISO layout issues, with having 1.0u LShift (when 1.25 is already not very great and also even already a bit too far away for ISO users) (which Wooting will also never do), or having LShift 2.0u and "< >" key in some place on R1, and this is something also unwanted by Wooting. Then there is the whole Arrows/Fn placement, RShift a bit too far away from pleasant usage, or on the other hand 1.0u RShift which again something Wooting will never do, and etc. Way too many obstacles all at once - no need for this mess when Wooting already has a great and pretty standard 60HE layout, with Arrows already working fine (and not even made for frequent Arrow usage). Those that want Arrows, also often want F-keys, and also want non-misclickable exploded Del key (and overall exploded layout), will go for 75% or 80HE instead.

[final harbor]

my god 😄

[final harbor]

I repeat the same thing over and over again and you still can’t seem to comprehend the simplest of points. A 64% layout is not new, it exists and is popular within its niche (without it being compatible with 60% cases, which is a major pro). It is not “a layout pretty much just for me” unlike your own suggestion. It’s funny how you misread what I wrote and based your point on that: Fact is, people who press a 6.25U spacebar on its right or left edge would find a 1U or 2U decrease in spacebar width annoying as there would be a different button where they were normally pressing space. The majority presses space on the left or right which you can see for yourself if you look at people typing, gaming or using a keyboard in general. The reason for an OPTIONAL triple split space bar is for remapping while maintaining keycap compatibility. Also you continue to fail to understand the difference between a subjective and an objective truth, it doesn’t help you and it’s rather annoying to read, just stop. “Not something tailored to your personal” you continue to believe I invented the 64% layout, thanks but I didn’t.

There are cons to the 64% layout like I addressed numerous times, for some it’s a dealbreaker and for others a mild annoyance. Either way, if it didn’t sell well it wouldn’t be so widely available as it is and reviews would so the opposite of what they do now.

As all we’re doing is just repeating points while getting no where, you can help and create a 64% ISO layout WITH most ISO users in mind. Without offsetting RShift or a non standard not optional spacebar.

Lastly, no more essays, for both of us! 😂😂😂

Some press space not with their thumb but with their hand

I mean the part above your thumb

It’s very common in people that solely use their boards to game but I don’t doubt it’s a habit that transfers to normal use as well.

Either way it doesn’t matter, a 5.25U spacebar is only more reason for Wooting not to do a 64% layout. Triple split is optional, 5.25 is not.

[restive relic]

Everything you write is exactly why you're tunnel-visioned. This is not a popular layout at all, by everyone's and Wooting's standards. Again bringing up this nonsense about pressing spacebar on the edges - NO ONE DOES IT. And again this is all for nothing, as Wooting will never do this, because of everything mentioned.
You should calibrate yourself a bit more with reality next time you suggest products to Wooting that you not even deep down know will never see fruition - and knowing this you should encourage people to make better versions of this at least in some unlikely event someone suggests a 64% layout that Wooting would actually do.

Again the bad things about 5.25 spacebar are completely and fully outweighed by the benefits it provides to the whole layout.

[final harbor]

It exists, it’s widely available. You again can’t seem to comprehend points made by another.

I suggest a layout that exists, and has so for the past 5? years.

Maybe Wooting won’t make a 64HE, maybe they will. Either or wouldn’t bother you so I’m not quite sure what your point is exactly.

[restive relic]

But must go now

[final harbor]

Take care!

Again; if you want to suggest your own layout, be my guest.

[restive relic]

back, I already suggested though #1196356399437983794 message, but already said that this idea of 64HE into a 60HE size has too many inherent issues (that 60HE doesn't have), a failed project from the start (the only benefit being dedicated arrows, that are also too cramped and easy to misclick, completely outweighed by the many other issues with it) (Del key overall is not a benefit, since it's also cramped and easy to misclick either you intend to press it or something else near it, it's not safe for such a disruptive key), to warrant some new thread or something.
(it's a complete hot mess of unovercomable issues; now 65% is something that would probably be much more preferable and actually not have almost any of these issues)

[restive relic]

like see this 65HE, has almost none of the problems 64HE has.

• R2 not shifted 0.25 to the left (still standard 1.25 LShift and "< >" key)
• nicely sized and placed RShift
• Fn key easily located because of that space between (also nice to locate the left arrow key)
• Del key not cramped with main body, and there is a space beneath it, meaning easier to locate (and not misclick when using arrows)
• still standard 6.25 Spacebar (this one you could also have option to split in 3 if you want, but doesn't actually matter for 99.9% of people)
• nice new wooting volume knob switch-key

Something similar to this Wooting might actually do at some point in the future.

[final harbor]

I’m not gonna reply if you do this again. Learn the difference between subjective truth and objective truth, it’ll help you in life and everyone you have a conversation with. The 64% layout isn’t a “failed project from the start” as there are five keyboards I’m aware of currently available as a 64%, two of which HE by 4 different brands. I didn’t include Del in my suggestion as I think it’s fine on Fn + Backspace and impossible to find a keycap for. I don’t know why you’re still on about misclicking, you might have large fingers but that’s an issue you have. The 64% layout’s pros outweigh its cons to me. It’s for those that would prefer a 65% but do not want to lose out on the 60%’s cases and like compactness in general.

[restive relic]

you're still very tunnel-visioned. some 64% keyboards just existing first of all doesn't make them popular enough for Wooting to try to enter that space, and second, doesn't make the layout somehow very good (already mentioned a mountain of issues with it) (just because some people don't mind having a subpar layout, are tricked by the hype, or even use the keyboard in these non-optimal ways, but are not conscious enough of its shortcomings and issues when they use it (also sunk cost fallacy), don't care enough and still use it in non-optimal ways to their own peril).

[final harbor]

1. I assume you mean 2.25U LShift? Yes, that’s a con of the 64% layout. For some a deal breaker and for others a mind annoyance to get used to.
2. Yes, although though to find that keycap in some sets, same as this.
3. Interesting, you find Fn “easily to locate” on a 65% because of “that space between”, you understand that a standard 65% does not have a 0.25U gap between Fn and Left Arrow?
4. Get Del out of your head. There is no Del keycap that’d even fit in that row. Epomaker created there own set and their entire keyboard was remappable just like all Wooting’s keyboard are and will be.
5. A 65% layout and 64% layout both have a 6.25U spacebar.
6. Just wait, it’s a guess but I think we’ll have a volume knob for all Wooting’s keyboards in the near future. 😉

The reason I’d think they might choose 64% over 65% is because they’d have to redesign the Alumaze and Wrist rest.

and 64% offers nearly everything a 65% does.

[restive relic]

they won't choose 65% and definitely not 64%, that's my guess. Much more likely they will do 75% exploded (or maybe actual TKL). or something else entirely, like first do a fighting hitbox "kb" with HE switches, something no other has, or done in any good way.
(or actually maybe just a half a kb product, the left side, for gaming, but also with some extra keys on the left side of it probably, with volume knob, also maybe some 1.0 Enter key, Del there, etc)
(also some numpad product possible ofc)

[final harbor]

Wooting doesn’t require popularity as its brand itself is popular. It’d have to be a layout that sells well enough for it to make sense. As long as there’s no 65HE on par with Wooting, Wooting’s 64HE will sell as most 65% enjoyers don’t mind 64%. “Mountain of issues” is quite the overstatement, to you those are dealbreakers, like I said; the layout just isn’t for you. “Just because some people don’t mind having a subpar~” that’s it.
Learn
The
Difference
Between
a Subjective Truth
and
an Objective Truth,
Opinion
and
Fact.

[restive relic]

still delusional and using that strawman "objective-subjective" nonsense as if it matters to what I'm saying.

[final harbor]

You are cooking, yes, they will definitely release a layout (75%) directly competing with their current layout (77.5%). For sure!

[final harbor]

It doesn’t matter, so why continue to state opinion as fact?

You choose to, that’s your problem.

[restive relic]

I don't state it as fact, that's how you perceive it 😄

[final harbor]

You state is as fact. That’s a fact. You’re free to learn.

[restive relic]

I state it as the best so far (since I don't see any better suggestions), according to standards Wooting and most others have, and ISO users have.

[final harbor]

If you want to suggest a 64% ISO layout with a 6.25U spacebar and a not offset RShift you’re free to do so and I’ll add it to my suggestion. If not, take care!

[restive relic]

lol, you're also the one that said big spacebar is waste of space remember? it's not bad to make adjustments to spacebar to a product that already has a lot of custom keycaps and is niche (that will benefit a lot more to the layout (and in general, since big spacebar is waste of space, and getting Alts closer to middle), than take away from something). you're just stuck in some weird way.
(you also just include some 1 additional same, and 2 more custom spacebars with the order; not to mention that vast majority of people won't even change keycaps, and if they do they can use some of those custom included, or when changing keycaps, not change the spacebar, often doesn't even matter)

[final harbor]

You see, now you say I stated something as a fact when I clearly stated it as opinion as you can see here: #1196356399437983794 message
A 5.25U spacebar is included in exactly zero (widely) available keycap sets whereas the entirety of the 64% layout is. As easy to find as 60%? No. Difficult to find? No, not at all.
I thought Wooting would have to open a few new molds to accommodate for the 2U LShift, 1U RShift, 1U Fn and Alt when they in fact had all that included in their set.

Edit harder.

https://tenor.com/view/datframe-sfm-editing-gif-24995308

[restive relic]

edited before you responded, added that extra part. also how vast majority of people don't even swap keycaps, and if they do, they don't often even need to swap spacebar.

[final harbor]

A 5.25U spacebar keycap is not widely available, the entirety of a 64% layout is.

A triple split spacebar is too.

[restive relic]

learn to weigh advantages vs disadvantages, and again read what I said about changing keycaps, and how the whole project has custom keycaps anyway, and is niche (can also order customly made spacebar not even expensive, paint it, or order from china, they probably sell all kind of spacebars, also wooting would include 3 extra spacebars with order)

[final harbor]

It is not a niche, and would be a dealbreaker for many. Triple split is optional, 5.25U is not.

I’ll end with that, good night.

[restive relic]

what I meant here is "I don't state it as objective fact", ofc I state it as a fact in some sense, from my pov, and i'm pretty certain my pov is aligned with what vast majority perceive as better than something else, and also standards majority of people expect; also the standard Wooting has often by extension (but sometimes innovating the new best standard), and also logically.

the argument wasn't even about "facts" but "objectivity-subjectivity", something you used to chip on my arguments, since you had nothing better to say. I only used "objective" once long ago, and with this I meant objective, but also in a sense when big majority finds something "objectively" better. Why you kept this in your mind for so long idk, probably just to try to make your argument better.
Nothing I said has been refuted though. While what I said about 64% being very non-standard, issue-ridden and niche is still true (additionally meanwhile 60HE already exists and does everything better except for arrows - but this alone is in no way enough to justify an issue-ridden 64%).

It's much more so "what I presented is "objectively", or extremely more likely to be right in overall respects, compared to what you have yet presented, you or anyone else I've seen". If someone actually suggests something better I will say it is, but so far no one has.

[restive relic]

Even just a naked module Wooting wouldn't do, since it would firstly be too big of a bait to many customers that trust Wooting to deliver intuitive and standard/innovative experiences. Almost no customer would have experience with a 64 compared to something more standard, and they would often neither spot the shortcomings (also the very hard to spot 0.25 shift to the left (or comprehend how it would be) - annoying adjustment nightmare when most people use more than 1 kb device often within a single day).
Secondly again making a whole module just to give dedicated arrows, when they already have superior non-bait 60HE module.
But thirdly, it would be weird selling a module without keycaps, they would have to sell keycaps for it, so this way approving this layout more and baiting even harder (even though probably those few keycaps would be included in the default set, but still).

[final harbor]

You haven’t the slightest clue what the difference is between a subjective and objective truth, you continue to state opinion as fact. You do not learn. That’s your thing. The layout isn’t for you, make your own and good luck with that, and in life. Take care!

[restive relic]

You're the one trying to make this about some kind of "objective-subjective" thing, you're derailing the conversation.
You think you're right, I think I'm right, like in every debate. I'm saying "I'm more objectively right than you" is something that happens in every debate. So this is done just for derailment and trying to make your argument better, since you have nothing better to justify your 64% version with (at least that's the conclusion you want people to make).

Bottom line is this #1196356399437983794 message, that you cannot bait customers that trust you with a sub-optimal layout, they have no experience with (99% of them). Especially since 60HE already exists and is superior.** If 60HE didn**'t exist,** and this 64% was somehow the best idea yet discovered - then sure**,** this could pass - but it can**'t pass when we already have discovered a majorly superior layout.

[final harbor]

This is the bottom line that you can either learn from, or ignore: #1196356399437983794 message

Does it again and again.

https://youtu.be/FIyt5pEcE_g?feature=shared

We will see what Wooting does, fact is, you do not know anything about what they will or will not do as you are not them.

You voiced a similar opinion about shifting the arrow keys on the 80HE.

What happened there?

[restive relic]

cool derailment - Aligner:

"the bottom line is I'm right and you're wrong, or at least that we are both right, and everything is subjective, please let me just get away with all of this, and this sub-optimal suggestion, I don't care that many people with no experience with this layout will be baited to buy it and then dislike it, when they could instead buy a superior 60HE layout without many issues"

[final harbor]

#1196356399437983794 message this is derailment of your own doing. If you wanted a discussion you would’ve had one. I told you many times now, stating opinion as fact is cowardly, something looked down upon in a discussion. It’s disrespectful to both parties involved. You ignore this, that’s up to you.

#1196356399437983794 message

#1196356399437983794 message

[restive relic]

stating opinion as fact is cowardly, something looked down upon in a discussion. It’s disrespectful to both parties involved.
Stating something YOU consider an opinion as fact - this is how like every debate works, one thinks the other person is stating opinions as facts, because they disagree with them, and often have their own opinions that they state as facts as well (from pov of the other).
What you state as fact here is: "This 64% is actually pretty good and popular, also cool 3-split spacebar" While I disagree: "No it's actually not great at all and pretty niche, and this 3-split spacebar is something very few actually care about, like less than 1% of those that will buy it".

[final harbor]

You’ve behaved like a bigot throughout this discussion after numerous times I asked you politely to quit it. You did not. Take care!

https://tenor.com/view/clueless-gif-24395495

[final harbor]

https://youtu.be/ut7_7qf1_N8?si=sRCRRBEY5DIdOLk5

This is exactly the layout I suggested. The optional triple split spacebar too.

[final harbor]

It’s from HEMU too.

It has the fucking manual calibration https://discord.com/channels/167181566978555904/1218711184925134869 like I suggested too! What in the world?

They went with a 2.25, 1.75 and 2.25U split which —looking at the reviewer in the video— would be preferable for most. I can see that he hits the 2.25U space at the far right side so a 2U space would have been too small and most likely uncomfortable.

[final harbor]

https://x.com/marere_e/status/1776444708073705509?s=46&t=uFrAs-7GGUduYiIB1-Qdbw

[tepid prairie]

Just create a layer using the software and map arrow keys wherever you want.

[final harbor]

This is how a few others and I use the board. Makeshift arrow keys which is fine but not not great as you can imagine.

[tepid prairie]

On 60s, I'll usually make a togglable layer and map arrows to clusters on either side on the board. WASD usually works nicely and lets you keep your right hand on the mouse.

a lot more natural than navigating with right shift and the 1.25u keys

you can use the menu/fn key or caps lock for the layer toggle depending on which side you want them on

I typically rebind caps lock to tab on the same layer as the arrows since capslock isn't used that commonly.

so turning caps lock on and off is just a simple three key combo of hitting caps and then tab then caps again to return to the defualt layer for typing

[vocal pelican]

Id rather just have native arrow keys 👍

[tepid prairie]

to each their own

[vocal pelican]

Yup 🙂

[tepid prairie]

Some of us prefer to type on stuff like this...

[final harbor]

The reason is that those are the only keys I do not use and thus the only place for native arrow keys. I also use “alternate” arrow keys for some games/programs, Fn + Arrow Up (RShift) is F13 which is Up in GTA’s menu for example. Putting arrow keys under an Fn layer is like putting Shift under an Fn layer for me. I use them too frequently to not have them natively.

[tepid prairie]

fair enough

plenty of custom options out there to suit anyone's needs/wants

just not a lot of options out there with hall effect unfortunately

[final harbor]

yeah well, the Hemu Loong66 is a pain to get.. 🥲

[final harbor]

exactly, not yet.

That time has long past, I think what Woot aims to do now is to grow their brand to a point where they stand next to the likes of Steelseries, Logitech, Corsair and Razer.

[tepid prairie]

yeah true

[final harbor]

For anyone interested:
The Hm Xu has been my main for a bit and I’ve been able to test out most of its features. I don’t think RT sensitivity can get any better to be honest. It almost solely has features the 60HE lacks and lacks features the 60HE does have. W/o taking its layout into account; RT sensitivity and accuracy, 8KHz poling, 4KHz scanning (I believe) and its features, it definitely deserves the throne.
I’ve used a 64% before but never mained one. I expected the 0.25U offset of R4 to be a mild annoyance but it really wasn’t. It is criminal that not every keyboard comes with the optional triple split spacebar. If you do not use RShift or do not mind a 1U RShift, a 64% layout is the perfect balance between utility and compactness. 😉

Remapping:

Advanced features:

Actuation point and RT (with live analog monitor built in):

RGB:

Manual Calibration (keyboard itself shows live feedback too):

[final harbor]

Something quite interesting under the “Layer” tab you can see that the Hm Xu does not have layers like the 60HE, instead you can set Fn to temporarily switch profile. This allows for a lot of customization and the option to have more profiles if you don’t use Fn layers.

[keen sparrow]

software honestly looks pretty good, I am excited to get my board

[final harbor]

It is. Everything works except for the “Customize” RGB option, or at least I haven’t been able to get that working.

[keen sparrow]

ah that's quite odd

I will give it a shot when I get mine as well

[keen sparrow]

btw on analog controller support on this one right?

[final harbor]

No, not yet.

[final harbor]

It works great! I misunderstood the "Download" button, it means download to the board. Custom RGB animations up to 16 frames. LOL!

[keen sparrow]

Ahh awesome!

I don’t think I’ve seen custom animations before that’s really sick

[final harbor]

I haven’t seen this on any board yet, it’s sick af

It allows you to draw frame by frame like you would a pixart animation. Pretty damn neat

Not yet sure what the first light tab does tho

[final harbor]

I really wonder how a time-based approach to SOCD (like “Cover” in the HM Xu) will compare to a depth-based approach (like Rappy-Snappy in Woot’s boards).

[keen sparrow]

Yeah they hacked their SOCD together in like 2days after rappy snappy was revealed