Wooting Fightstick/Fightpad/Stickless Controller

[jovial flint]

As the title says, I was wondering if there was ever a possibility of Wooting making a stickless controller (like the HitBox) but include the rapid trigger/actuation point/and sensitivity of Wooting. I am 100% sure the product would be able to take over the fighting controller market as the best technically advanced controller possible for fighting games. There is just a really damn good market out there in the fighting game world that could want this.

[acoustic smelt]

Can you pitch a must have leverless layout(s) other than hitbox. In addition, what is a major improvement you’d like to see in leverless controllers ?

[hidden ravine]

Something that's actually in stock would be a huge improvement already 🙃

I think the hitbox layout is the only one that could be considered a "standard" of any sort and it's what a lot of people have come to expect from a leverless. But if we're dreaming here I'd love something like the hitbox layout but with an extra thumb button, similar to 4TW's "6GAWD ALL BUTTON" layout.

As for improvements, I think the biggest thing other than build quality would just be software support and customer support in general. There was some drama recently where Hitbox didn't want to update their firmware to follow the new SOCD rules for Street Fighter. They eventually sorted things out but I think it showed a need to have an already established program like wootility to do things like change SOCD settings or update firmware. (I think JunkFoodArcade's snackbox has something like that but you have to download an app on your phone?) And frankly both Hitbox and JunkfoodArcade have relatively anemic warranties with a no refund policy.

Also more dreaming but some RGB like on the wooting uwu would be sick. Razer's launching the Kitsune leverless controller and it comes with something similar.

The layout I'm referring to: (bottom row, 2nd from right) https://i.imgur.com/SKX45Ra.png

[heady plume]

I would love a stick with haptic feedback.

for flight sticks/ racing steers

[acoustic smelt]

Any reason to not add more buttons on the layout than 6GAWD left pinky? My understanding tournament rules prohibit more buttons than on a controller and depending on the game you can have duplicate buttons.

SF6 however doesn’t allow duplicate buttons(?)

Wouldn’t you in theory be able to just close off any additional button that might be against tournament rules?

[hidden ravine]

I think the main reason not to add more buttons is to just play it safe and also if there are too many buttons some of them might get in the way and the player might get mixed up (Personally, I use a 60HE for fighting games and sometimes my hand can shift without me noticing).

Here's Capcom's official rule regarding this, it sounds like you can make a system where you close off buttons in advance:
The maximum number of input systems that can be used as attacking actions is eleven(11). However, the same offensive action cannot be assigned to multiple input systems. For example, it is not allowed to have more than one light punch button. When using a controller with more than eleven(11) input systems for attacking actions, measures must be taken in advance to disable the use of unnecessary input systems as attacking actions.

Source: https://sf.esports.capcom.com/cpt/rules/

There's also this video about another controller that might answer some of your questions. The video itself is a little advertisy but it has useful info. Especially the parts from 3:50 to 6:30

To summarize, you can't have 2 simultaneous duplicate buttons for directional inputs but you can have a switch to toggle between different options. They don't explicitly say this is the case with other buttons as well but I feel like, along with the capcom rules above, it sounds like it would be allowed.
https://youtu.be/7CKNCLYKal4?si=CHG0riT3AGuV3vTR&t=230

Also just for fun here's a controller from this year's EVO (timestamp at 10:30)(also at 11:25 is the controller layout that I'd personally be interested in)
https://youtu.be/D5ykGYSPPaA?si=j-wYjLynw9NdFtD_&t=633

[acoustic smelt]

That’s a good example

[acoustic smelt]

2 thumbs, extra on left pinky, and spaced out slight more correct?

This is great information btw, appreciate you spending the time expanding on my questions.

How do you actually feel about the spacing between your hands. If you see the customer one at 1:48, he can expand it pretty far apart

[hidden ravine]

Yep, that's the one. And I'm just glad you're showing some interest lol.
Personally I have a slight preference for something more spaced out but it's not a huge deal for me so I'm probably not the best person to ask. I used to play on a fullsize keyboard and I had my right hand on the numpad. With the 60HE, it's closer to the example in the video, but I've used a hitbox style controller too and I got used to it fairly quickly. Attached some images of the button bindings I use, depending on the game I play.

[woven pilot]

My preferred layout would be 6GAWD All Button but with both the second Thumb and the left Pinky button.
I also love this idea https://www.reddit.com/r/fightsticks/comments/16vbpxv/persona_4_custom_afs_16_seamless_custom/ but spacing out both hands might not work for everyone. There is leverless tech that sees you pressing UP with the right thumb rather than the left, which wouldn't be possible with that layout. Other people might be very happy about a more relaxed hand position though.
The general dimensions of the device being similar to the 60HE would be nice for portability, and compatibility with your 60% Wristrest(!) and possibly even the 60HE travel case.
Extra buttons(Start/Select and so on) should be reachable with the right hand without moving too far, think stretching the hand out upwards or turning the wrist ~30° to reach them. Also don't make them tiny nubs that dig into your fingers when you press them please. You'll have to reach over and hit some of them every few seconds when in the training room, that experience is really painful/annoying on some devices.

Here are a few more thoughts on what i'd like to see, I'll add more when I think of something.

Important features:

• (Obviously best in class performance and low latency, but you knew that already)
• PS4/PS5/PC compatibility is a must, but native Xbox and Switch compatibility would be nice to have. You don't usually get all of it on the same device.
• CPT legal SOCD cleaning
• Layout needs to be figured out, if you're trying something different like change the size of buttons or space them differently you need to be sure it makes sense. (People can and will take your internals and put them in new enclosures, but the out of the box experience matters)

Nice to have:

• Rebindable buttons and multiple profiles like we're used to from wootility
• Passthrough 3.5mm audio jack. Probably should be on the left side or the back.
• Non-Slip Foam Pad for the bottom, I would coat all of it, not just give it two strips or four feet.
• Alternate SOCD method as a toggle
• RGB
• Replacable art, personally I'd prefer something minimalist and clean but a lot of people love customizing their sticks, making that easy will be appreciated.
• Dedicated button to re-calibrate the hall effect sensors. Re-calibrating by un- and re-plugging the device can be problematic in a local tournament environment. And being able to hit that button between rounds for piece of mind could be nice.
• Removable cable, you'd probably default to USB-C but something like the GX16-5 pin connector might be worth considering.
• While portability should be a focus, don't worry about the weight too much, I'd rather have it be sturdy and reliable feeling. Jam a steelplate in there to support the board like you're doing for the 60HE.
• With that last point being said, replacing switches being a tad easier would also be appreciated.

Niche bonus:

• Keyboard mode for PC(for compatibility in edge cases, but also things like Media Keys on a FN layer for example, or using it as a macroboard when it's not being played with)
  I listed that as niche because I can't judge how many people would care about it, but for me personally it'd be a huge deal.

huh?:

• My ideal size would have it be more for desk use, but you could design it to be extendable so that people can comfortably play with it in their laps, even when sitting crosslegged.
  Obviously super niche, but if you're looking for some unique thing to add, this can provide value.

[acoustic smelt]

What is CPT legal SOCD cleaning?

Also thanks for the feedback, some interesting ones in between

[acoustic smelt]

Can you elaborate which extra buttons are used for reset etc. I assume you’d want Start, Select, Create/share button?

[acoustic smelt]

How do you feel about the layout you linked, the far right large button. Wouldn’t this otherwise be 2 buttons?

Consider that for tournament legal, you can easily map buttons differently and worse case close off a button. Would you rather have the 30mm on the right or 2x 24mm

[woven pilot]

https://sf.esports.capcom.com/cpt/rules/ Point 4.2.3
Another popular but in this case illegal form of SOCD cleaning would for example prioritize the most recent of opposing inputs. Holding DOWN and then tapping UP would cause the device to stop sending the DOWN input, even though it's still being held, before sending the UP input for a jump or to complete a charge motion.
This trivializes some actions to the point of being considered a cheat. And since it's happening on the hardware level there is no way for the game to know that shenanigans is afoot. Other leverless controllers are getting away with providing multiple options for SOCD cleaning to allow both somewhat cheaty behavior while also being tournament legal when needed.

[woven pilot]

Training mode reset is usually done with either the Touchpad or Select/Options, you want all of the extra buttons found on a traditional controller to be somewhat close to each other. Start/Options, Share/Select, Home/Guide, Touchpad, and R3.
L3 would become the left pinky button with this layout so it's omitted from that list.
Having only one or two of those be really easy to press while playing is adequate as long as they're rebindable.

[woven pilot]

I'd much rather have the single 30mm button. The traditional design has 2x 24mm buttons, but most people don't use either or only one of these because the pinky isn't as well suited to hammering multiple buttons all the time. That's why there has been a push towards the single centered 30mm button and the move of the other button to the thumb position, it's a more reliable distribution. Some people will prefer the old design however.

[acoustic smelt]

This is a recent thing isn't it, since this SOCD trick made leverless an attractive option.

in addition, I read this parT:

3. Controller Customization:
   Customization refers to changing the physical location of buttons and levers or creating the controller itself. Customization beyond the mechanical capabilities of the PS5 standard controller, DualSense, is prohibited unless there is a special reason to do so, which takes physical characteristics into consideration. Not to mention, macros, turbo (continuous hitting function), unacceptable compound input, or any analogous function is prohibited.

How would you interpret the last bit, any analogous function.

[acoustic smelt]

Would it make it more reliable to press with a single button? Since you can always choose to just ignore one of the two. (imagine having that thumb button already there, so it's the same layout but 2 24mm vs 1 30mm)

[hidden ravine]

It's a recent thing but Street Fighter kind of sets the standard so any controller for fighting games is expected to be able to follow their rules. (And there are other reasons why leverless controllers are popular) But other tournaments/games can have different rules which is why I mentioned the ability to change SOCD settings earlier.

As for the controller customization, I would include things like dynamic keystroke, mod tap, and toggle key as functions that are not allowed since they do things that the playtstation controller mechanically cannot do. Of course, that's just my guess

[woven pilot]

Leverless is still plenty attractive after that change, it didn't affect most SOCD shortcuts, and while it removed a few, it also created new ones. One of the biggest advantages to leverless controllers and keyboards over other input types is simply being able to change directions much faster than flicking a stick or moving your thumb could. This change did not dampen demand for the controller. But you do want to comply with the rules because Street Fighter has a way of dictating where fighting games are moving, and CPT tournaments will be some of the biggest E-Sport events in the next few years.

They're just using language to cover their bases, you can't have DKS or Mod Tap in their tournaments for example, those are analogous to macros even if you call them something else. In general you're not allowed to have a button to send multiple inputs. SF6 itself has macro options which will cover most peoples need in that regard, but DKS could also be used to perform special motions inputs or entire combos which is not allowed.
You can't have multiple buttons send the same input either(No 2 X buttons, but you are allowed multiples of directions if you separate them into D-Pad and Analog Stick inputs, that's what CrossUp controllers do)
No one is using turbo in fighting games, but plenty of controllers are able to do it for other genres, I don't think simply having the feature would be a problem.

[woven pilot]

The size and positioning would make it easier to keep your pinky on the single button while moving the rest of your hand between the top and bottom row of the other buttons. The single bigger button seems to be the way forward, and I would consider having 2x 24mm buttons in that position to be a significant downgrade, but it wouldn't stop me from picking up the device if you were to make it.
I feel like it should be possible to design the PCB to allow for either configuration. Even if you don't plan on providing multiple top panels with cutouts to accommodate any non-default configuration, just having the sockets for the switches in place and wired up would go a long way. Would probably have to turn the socket for the single 30mm button by 45° to have it fit but It seems doable to my eyes.

[acoustic smelt]

Good info, thanks for answering all of this. You might not realize it but this type of feedback makes a big impact on our design decisions

[acoustic smelt]

Another question on the layout. There are players that use the right hand to sometimes press one of the directional buttons (other than the thumb) to what extent is this the case and is it for specific games?

[woven pilot]

I can't speak to how widespread it is, but it's not insignificant and it's not game specific.
Usually it's done in the context of double tapping inputs which is faster and easier to do with two fingers instead of one. For example to quickly dash or use DOWN DOWN special inputs.
It's worth pointing out that the opposite also happens. Players may move their left hand to press light punch and light kick leaving their right hand to press the mediums and heavies for some of the tighter combos. The idea there being that you'd rather have two index fingers and a middle finger instead of an index, middle and ring finger to hammer out tight sequences of your 6 normal buttons. This can be referred to as a piano input.

You could somewhat compare it to claw or reverse claw gripping a gamepad for an action game. It's a somewhat advanced technique that most people might not even know about, and modern games tend to get less and less demanding which lessens the need for it, but there is a core audience that expects to be able to do it.

[lost tinsel]

hey! just wanted to feed some of my ideas that I have for the same purpose of a product usable for FGs, but to expand the idea to cover an ortholinear style keyboard as well. Standard cherry spacing, 5x14 grid style with an option of a single 6U or 2x 3U spacebars. The idea is modularity between games/layouts, as well as being used as a normal keyboard for FPS/Rhythm/Etc. Some examples of fighting game layouts (dark green is standard 60% PCB size, dark grey is a Tofu60 case for reference):
-Full Keyboard Grid Layout
-Standard Hitbox/Leverless
-Hitbox's Crossup style
-Daigo's hitbox layout
-B0XX/Frame1/Platform Fighter-style layout

[hushed forge]

Have you worked with an ID75?

[lost tinsel]

Unfortunately not, why do you ask?

[hushed forge]

It is almost exactly the layout you are discussing.

[lost tinsel]

Yeah, the layout isn’t really much new, but in an ideal world this would have Hall effect switches and (if possible) console compatible for tournament use

[hushed forge]

That would be cool.

[lost tinsel]

But yeah I’m a big fan of ortho layouts, and 15 key rows are possible in standard 60% cases I just need symmetry for peace of mind lol

[hushed forge]

But getting me to support an ortho ain't hard 🙂

[lost tinsel]

Fr, if I could get the big things I want a keyboard-leverless hybrid (hall effect, ortho, console use) I’d be first in line to buy one

Hard thing to manifest tho, and I lack the know-how to do it myself. So I’ll stick to being an ideas man for now lmao

[hushed forge]

Well, the hard thing is that hall effect switches aren't real common yet. In 3-5 years... maybe.

An ortho is already niche.

[lost tinsel]

Yeah

But hey if this somehow leads anywhere it opens up the gates

One could only dream

[acoustic smelt]

I still need to try an ortho keyboard can you recommend me one?

[hushed forge]

What are you looking for in one?

[acoustic smelt]

Anything that is considered mainstream ortho keyboard but does t leave me to do bunch of layering with only 40 keys

[hushed forge]

There's 3 big branches of Ortho, IMHO, the solid smaller rectangle. Look at the Preonic and ID75. The flat split, which honestly I don't use but there's plenty of. And the sculpted orthos, the Kinesis Advantage and MoErgo's board are good examples of that.

Personally, I own: 2xID75, 2xKinesis (1I think both may have been bought by firms I worked for. But I've bought 2 over my life... back when the design was in PS/2) and 1xMoErgo. The MoErgo board is really a cool board.

The big issue on the ID75 is figuring out what you want to do with the space bar... which if you aren't used to the split orthos is a bit odd.

If you have questions on any of them. Feel free to ask. I've been using orthos... 20 years? 🙂 Your board is one of the few non-ortho boards I've bought in eons.

[nocturne veldt]

Tekken 8 is doing numbers right now 👀

[candid quest]

Yeah, timing to do a Wootbox is great right now, since Razer dropped the ball hard with Kitsune controller (no HE, boring layout with nothing innovating, no socd cleaning, surface that stains easily from use, limited platform support, astronomical price).
But must never be more than $200, should aim for $150 (just a good consumer friendly price, because higher prices just exploit the niche market and lack of availability, having a monopoly, etc (it's also cheaper to make than a keyboard, so should never be this expensive; should also be Leverless and pretty slim, no point having it be thick without lever (movement (for it to be heavier, inertia)))).
(The device itself could I guess be without wrist support, but must follow a good wrist rest with it (that probably attaches itself somehow under the Wootbox, since the silicon wrist rest tends to slide too much on mousepad surface at least (and having it be attached to wootbox also makes the wootbox heavier and not as movable itself).)
(if you do like small wbox form tho, almost always on all pictures try to advertise it with the wrist rest, and also so it's understandable that it's attached and looks solid (wrist rest would also expand beyond wbox on the sides tho ofc. but here there is also opportunity to do some nice shape to it))

[thorn gale]

😮