probably just bits and pieces spread out over a couple weeks
#classic-doom-maps-mods
light prism
ionic stratus
Wow.
exotic moss
problem I am running into with my Brutal edit is the actors I am replacing not having headshot frames so headshots just don't register at all on tall actors
bullets go through their head
light prism
youll have to hook up headshots then
exotic moss
I read there are two ways to do it...not a fan of simulating another head over top the existing actor that confuses me
light prism
well thats the easy way
light prism
spawn one headshot actor, have it a_warp
light prism
no
exotic moss
or is it just decorate code?
light prism
just use TNT1 A
light prism
oh you dont know decorate?
exotic moss
just learning
exotic moss
on the headshot part
light prism
ill find the relevant code
exotic moss
it is new to me
light prism
its probably just a matter of looking at one of the other monsters and modifying its headshot spawned
exotic moss
looking at some but making my own enemy is a bit different
light prism
hitbox
exotic moss
hate copying stuff kinda want to learn it
exotic moss
k
light prism
so he's spawning different headshot actors on each frame
i guess the number is maybe the x offset? but that wouldnt make sense on mirrored sprites
need to find where the headshot actors are defined
light prism
"dyingguys" decorate file is 100kb
3 times bigger than any other decorate file
any of the other large ones
where the hell are headshots
oh head_sys
oh no okay duh
the number on headshot is the length of frames it exists for
wow thats pretty poor, there would probs be a way to pass it an argument on spawn and just have one headshot actor rather than defining a huge file of them
exotic moss
really?
that would be nice
because this one is off for sure and I know at least one other
and I need to do tons of monsters
light prism
well the thing is
to retain accuracy you really do need to spawn it on each animation frame
light prism
and offset it according to the monsters sprite positioning and such
exotic moss
that is the way it looks on Brutal
light prism
luckily since most monsters are symmetrical you can just offset the height
exotic moss
yeah these ones I have are wonky
light prism
thats why you see ,44 at the end of the spawns, it is 44 high, around head height for human sprites
light prism
so thats the number you wanna change
prisma saddle
@light prism
exotic moss
44 what pixels?
or the axis?
couldn't I adjust the sprite height through decorate saw an option like that and that tweak it enough to adjust the headshot?
made one actor normal size he was shrunken for some reason
let me try that
light prism
A_SpawnItem ("HeadshotTarget4", 0, 44,0)
that is 44 'units' high relative to the base of the actor
light prism
POSS AAAA 5 A_Look
TNT1 A 0 A_SpawnItem ("HeadshotTarget20", 0, 44,0)
TNT1 A 0 A_SpawnItem ("LegTarget10", 0, 0,0)
Loop```looks like you can do it this way
0 frame length and gets added to whatever is called
exotic moss
then I put that in the other states as well?
light prism
but yes, on every animation frame that they are alive and shootable you need one
exotic moss
or does that go with those
light prism
otherwise there will be gaps where you can't hit them
light prism
you adjust the 44 value yes
exotic moss
right ok thanks man
light prism
the number at the end of the headshot actor is the length of time the headshot box exists
the number after is the height
exotic moss
my cops will now be head shootable 😉
light prism
(the 0 before is x offset probably)
exotic moss
going to test
light prism
youre going to murder innocent police officers?
exotic moss
no they are aliens
light prism
oh then its okay
light prism
because theyre different to us
exotic moss
in my world
works for the one now to do the hegiht for the baron type I will adjust this...using advanced maths
exotic moss
why is is headshottarget20?
one here says 8b
oh for different types
well this needs to be adjusted other one is gravy
right on
where do I perform the blow job?
*admin: No soliciting blowjobs in map mod
ok so that works
thanks to MisterCat I am slightly less incompetent
haughty flower
Any way to get DOOM II monsters in DOOM 1?
light prism
@inner zealot alive?
golden drum
Ayyyy
I hate having to choose between decent music and variety of monsters you know?
The Doom 2 music is such trash
golden drum
Same, but the other tracks are slow and boring
Is it reasonable to map for doom_complete.pk3
dusk flare
Hmm i like the jazzy or swing themed songs in the second map, the kinda cartoony themed one in map 3 and the first level is gud too
The rest are kinda slower tuned but adapt to the atmosphere i guess?
rugged shore
final doom tnt music is good
also what's doom_complete.pk3
never heard of that
is that doom 1 and 2 + final in 1?
lavish hollow
@golden drum it's not really reasonable to map for doom_complete or wadsmoosh imo
since not everyone uses it
golden drum
That's crappy. A map I'm making needs the doom 1 computer tectures
lavish hollow
i mean you can still do it if you want
but you'll get the same complaints from everyone who plays it about missing textures
unreal oyster
@golden drum http://www.realm667.com/index.php/en/texture-stock-mainmenu-152/607-doom-textures-for-doom-ii
just use this if you need the D1 textures
lavish hollow
official, obvi
golden drum
Nice
shadow bone
To clarify: They're the official textures. The pack itself is fanmade and technically of questionable legality since it's redistributing unmodified Doom1 content. In practice, no one will care, but I just wanted to make the distinction.
lavish hollow
i kinda figured
young mesa
Hey Ive got a problem. I'm making a map and it looks like this.
The problem is, i don't want monsters outside hear gunshots from the inside. How do i do that ?
young mesa
doens't work. monsters still wake up
haughty flower
Door
haughty flower
Give them the "Ambush players" flag
shadow bone
You need two "blocks sound" linedefs
haughty flower
So they'll only wake up if they see you
royal wave
Yeah. they do this so monsters that are standing right next to the player, but with a block sound in between, don't unrealistically ignore sound
young mesa
right next to the player
The map is really small...
Oh and yeah putting to "block sound" linedef works too
blissful knoll
imagine like
screen share comes to discord chat servers
and people can just stream their problems
pearl sundial
that'd be greatt
hazy lantern
You can already share your screen in video chats.
warped rampart
I would like to see them implement video channels into servers, but that’s just me
ionic stratus
Man, I just keep finding map packs that have problems with brutal doom.
So Doom 2 The Way Id did has a map based on Commander Keen, and it has a single monster. The dopefish.
inner zealot
Some are straight up unbeatable with BD
ionic stratus
Brutal Doom replaces the dopefish with...YOU GUESSED IT. HEADLESS ZOMBIE (which is actually easier in this case, lawl)
ionic stratus
There's a Doom 2 version, yes.
inner zealot
Remember that time Brutal Doom had partial support for Chex Quest?
ionic stratus
But yeah, it breaks Map 32 by having the wrong monster spawn on it.
So yeah, I'm getting the impression it's just not ideal for any map packs that make changes to vanilla doom.
ionic stratus
Meanwhile, I went back to looking at one of my old map ideas and wonder if it would be feasible. Definitely not as a first set of maps since the scope of the idea was pretty ambitious.
haughty flower
exotic moss
Brutal Doom v21 has a vanilla monster replacer.txt
I am sure that could be used to fix issues like that
not wanting to fuck with it too much too much to do
but I definitly fixed issues like that with previous Brutal Doom versions and map packs easily enough
I want an Ancient Aliens inspired 80's megawad
using some ideas like that in my current projects but a whole mod like that would be cool with Retrowave being in style
warped rampart
And meanwhile I’ve been working on ideas for a Ghost in the Shell Standalone Complex Online TC since the one on Steam is getting shut down next month
inner zealot
That sounds kinda awesome, actually.
warped rampart
The game itself is kinda cool, a little like Overwatch or TF2. I’ve played it and I liked it, but it’s a shame that it’s getting shut down next month, a lot of people are upset about it.
So I figured it would be smart to sort of keep it alive by means of a Doom TC
vocal crypt
sounds really ambigious
ionic stratus
So, question. Is there a good getting started type tutorial for GZDoom Builder? IE, something that covers the basics of making rooms, stairs, elevators, doors, that kinda thing?
haughty flower
zdoom.org/wiki/ and tutorials on YT
inner zealot
Chubzdoomer has some good tutorials https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIh3EmorY3A&list=PLCE835098C82D8F24
Technically these are for Doom Builder, but they're very similar.
ionic stratus
So from what I'm watching, rooms and sectors are different things. Rooms are more or less the basic geometry for the entirety of the room, whereas you use sectors to break things up if you have things like stairways or differing floor textures?
golden drum
every room is a sector but not every sector is a room
Sectors are basically like your floors and ceilings
ionic stratus
Alright.
golden drum
You can make a sector which is a room, but if you want a table in that room, that table will be another sector inside of your room sector
also if you want a wall that changes textures partway up the wall, you'll need to make a thin sector to do that.
what format are you using?
ionic stratus
Define format?
ionic stratus
Oh, UDMF I guess?
golden drum
Vanilla and boom are good for starting off. It isn't harder to map for udmf, but taking in all the features in one go could be distracting, you know?
ionic stratus
Could you explain? I figured UDMF was the most up to date format.
golden drum
It is, but learning vanilla/boom, THEN learning udmf could be useful
just because of the sheer number of features udmf has
Also, tho it's the most up-to-date format, udmf wouldn't work in vanilla doom, crispy, chocolate, prboom+ etc etc
udmf only works in gzdoom and I believe eternity and ege
idk
oops
wouldn't
inner zealot
Bugbait's right.
If you want to dive into UDMF, go nuts. But I'd advise going with vanilla format
Get the basics down first.
ionic stratus
Wouldn't I be able to get the basics down in the UDMF format? Just because it has the extra features, it doesn't mean I have to use them...?
golden drum
Well it's all person to person I guess, I'm just saying udmf actually clutters the menus with extra feature, so it may look intimidating. If I jumped into gzdoom udmf when I styarted, I prolly would've been a bit spooked
I started with doom builder 2 though so it's not the same situation
similar tho
but yeah
inner zealot
Near identical, even.
golden drum
if you can hop right into udmf, do it
inner zealot
At a first glance, at least.
golden drum
just remember that all the craziness in the menus is just extra features
ionic stratus
Right.
inner zealot
I'm pretty sure that's the case.
As I understand it, UDMF was meant to standardize maps with advanced features.
inner zealot
Imagine vanilla Doom with less limits and less bugs
golden drum
generalized actions for linedefs
neato
anyway @ionic stratus A good rule of thumb is to start a map in vanilla and change the format as you require more features
no need to make udmf if there are no udmf features, you know?
ionic stratus
What would UDMF features include anyway?
inner zealot
Slopes, 3D floors, fancy lighting, portal linedefs, stacked sectors
You can re-align floor/ceiling textures
golden drum
fog
golden drum
offsets for upper and lower textures are seperate
inner zealot
Which is mega helpful
hard elmBOT
Indeed!
golden drum
indeed
hard elmBOT
Indeed!
golden drum
ah
inner zealot
Can't make bridges like that in vanilla
I'd actually send the map for you to poke around in, but I have no idea where it went
And the aliasing is painful.
golden drum
why is your weapon sprite stretched?
haughty flower
The thing I always loved about (old school?) Doom was the fact that you can't make 3D floors with it, nowadays that manages to somehow make it still feel even more unique
Triple A fps developers just pour 3d floors into everything and ehh that just seems lazy, at least to me
inner zealot
It's not stretched.
golden drum
Not stretched
haughty flower
It's the literal opposite of stretched ^
inner zealot
Are you sure yours isn't squished?
haughty flower
It's way too squished, yeah
inner zealot
You seem to be using a wider aspect ratio than me.
inner zealot
Err...
golden drum
??
inner zealot
Let me check again
inner zealot
It was taken in GZDoom
That's an old screenshot, by the way
I just took one on my current setup
haughty flower
inner zealot
I am now confused
golden drum
That's weird
inner zealot
I'm opening SLADE to investigate further
golden drum
Actually the doom engine is designed to stretch the image vertically
by a factor 1.2
I guess older gzdoom you had didn't?
haughty flower
mfw I search for screenshots of the plasma rifle in Doom 2 and all the pics are from Brutal Doom's
golden drum
lol
haughty flower
inner zealot
When you should be working on your thing but you're easily distracted.
golden drum
saaaame
ionic stratus
Dumb question, how do you de-select stuff when you have multiple surfaces/walls/etc selected?
golden drum
click them
or press c to de-select all
once you get used to it, it become second nature
ionic stratus
C is what I wanted, thank you 😄
golden drum
It'll be like playing an fps, except instead of mashing those wasds you'll be mashing shortcut keys
@inner zealot is there a fullbright cheat or something ingame
inner zealot
idbehold1
golden drum
console command for gzdoom*
inner zealot
It still works if you just type it
golden drum
it doesn't weirdly enough
inner zealot
I think there's a setting that does the same thing
ionic stratus
So dumb question, what's the difference between sectors mode and make sectors mode?
inner zealot
As far as I've figured, make sector mode just makes sectors, while sector mode can edit the properties of an already existing sector
golden drum
sometimes you'll get a weird thing where closing off some linedefs doesn't make a sector, but just hitting it with a make sector fixes it
inner zealot
That would've been helpful when I start recreating Hyrule
golden drum
actually sometimes deleting a linedef inside of a sector sometimes deletes a whole sector too
which make sector fixes
What timezones are we in?
I'm in atlantic time, so it's 9:14 pm
inner zealot
EST, 8:14 PM
golden drum
so it's 7:18 pm for you right?
ionic stratus
Yep
Okay so I'm having some trouble with sectors. Like, let's say I want to make a raised section of floor in a room, I have to make a new sector in that room, right? Except...I ...Don't know how?
Any time I try to right click to do drawing in vetices mode, I just go into the properties for the room
And if I double left click to try drawing that way, it won't let me actually draw anything, just place individual vertices that aren't connected.
ionic stratus
What if I want to make a line where one already exists? IE, if I'm trying to split a room in half? Same issue of "I select the linedef instead of drawing something."
It's like I'm only allowed to draw on blank spaces, I can't draw anywhere I've already put something.
if that makes any sense.
golden drum
What I do is I zoom in real close to the grid spot I want and click just next to it
but the better way to use the draw lines tool in the top left
ionic stratus
OH. I see, you have to click that first.
ionic stratus
Okay, another question, god I'm bad at this so far. Let's say I've accidentally made the floor meet the ceiling in a sector so I can no longer look at either to adjust height. ...Wat do
...Oh wait, duh. I'm thinking like this isn't an editor and I can go inside stuff...nevermind.
golden drum
Yeah lol
inner zealot
Also, if you're in sector mode you can right click on it to change the floor/ceiling height
ionic stratus
Oh yeah, I've noticed texture auto align seems to only handle horizontal alignment. Is there any way to do vertical alignment too?
ionic stratus
It is, yeah.
golden drum
@ionic stratus wasn't there a specific reason you were mapping or no?
ionic stratus
Possibly? I'm just messing around with it right now to see if I feel like doing anything with it.
Also, oddity. I've made a working door, but it doesn't behave like most doom doors. I can open it with use, but I can't close it.
inner zealot
Wrong linedef
ionic stratus
Howso?
royal wave
Some doors can be set to stay open
inner zealot
Oh, nevermind.
ionic stratus
The door will close after the delay time passes, but it won't close if I press use on it a second time.
ionic stratus
So it's not just me.
So how does one make it behave like a standard doom door you can open and close with use then, I wonder. o.O
inner zealot
Eh, play around with it. I'm sure you'll get it
ionic stratus
Oh yeah, I noticed you can use the arrow key to do texture offsets. Is there any way you can scale them like that? I find using the menus kinda awkward
....And now I have a new odd problem. Now the door won't open/close all the way. It just moves up/down a couple pixels. @.@
Yeah, doors are starting to annoy me. >.<
Well, figured it out. No tutorial bothered to mention it and I had to find some comments. Apparently the sides of your door need to be one sided and impassible. If they're doublesided they jam the door. What IS the doublesided tag for on linedefs anyway?
golden drum
ayy
Idk why doublesided is a tag
I thought it was like if a linedef has a sector on both sides
but I'm not sure
ionic stratus
Whelp, I've made a few basic square rooms and a functioning door. Yay? >.>
ionic stratus
;P
But yeah, I decided for a first map I'd try doing something like E1M1 under the logic of "What if it was designed more like an actual hangar?" Something tells me I'm not the first person to think this though. ;P
golden drum
I think you could make something decent out of it
actually
nvm i wouldn't know where to go with this
ionic stratus
The idea of trying to use sectors to 'build' actual shuttles makes me shudder though. ;P
golden drum
lol
good luck
This is the point where you go udmf and throw in some models
lol
jk jk
You might be able to make some shuttles
can't promise they'd look good tho
ionic stratus
But yeah, I guess that brings about the next question. How to avoid having every room look like a box Heh.
haughty flower
^
interesting, i cant make drpgs scripts runaway in gzdoom v2.1.1, hmmmmmm
but they runaway in 3.2.1
just ran in nuts3.wad and gzdoom 3.2.1 crashes scripts hard but 2.1.1 plays fine, i dont know what to think lol
ionic stratus
I keep running into weird issues.
Now my Player 1 start is "stuck." Even if I move it in the editor, it acts like I didn't move it.
I even tried deleting it, and somehow instead of a no player 1 start error like I should be getting, I spawn where it last was.
ionic stratus
So this is PROBABLY something I shouldn't be messing with yet, but I'm messing around with 3D floors. Following a tutorial (says make a dummy sector, set one of the linedefs to a 3D floor, set its sector tag to 1, and then make the sector you want to be a 3D floor a tag of 1 as well.)
But it's still acting like a non 3D floor.
royal wave
Can you show me a screenshot?
ionic stratus
What I have set on the dummy sector's linedef.
What I have set on the sector I'm trying to make into a 3D floor.
It's still behaving like an old 2D floor though, there's no bottom to it that I can raise/lower.
Is the process different for UDMF format maps or something?
inner zealot
3D floors are actually pretty simples
simple*
I can throw together a quick example if you want
Doing it anyway
light prism
the sector you want to have the 3d floor appear in should be tagged
this is called the dummy sector
ionic stratus
The whole sector needs to be tagged? I thought you just tagged the linedef.
light prism
the sector outside the gamefield yes
er no
the sector outside is called the control sector (it 'controls' what appears in the dummy)
and that one should be untagged (unless it is tagged for other reasons)
ionic stratus
Wait, I thought the sector outside is the dummy.
light prism
nah its around the other way
the dummy is the game map sector
the control is the outside sector
but thats just terminology and not really important
ionic stratus
Okay. So I have the outside sector's linedef pointing to my actual sector.
ionic stratus
Yeah, that's exactly what I did.
light prism
ok, now
the control sectors floor and ceiling are techincally inverted
the floor of the control is the 'ceiling' on the underside
while the ceiling is the 'floor' above
so you need to adjust the control sectors heights to match what you want
say your dummy sector is f0 c128
your control sector could be like, 64-96
ionic stratus
Yeah, NOTHING happens when I do that.
light prism
sigh.. here
ionic stratus
I posted some screenshots of how I have the sectors set up. Is something wrong there?
Note what I called the dummy is the control in that scenario.
(The tutorial I saw called the outside sector the dummy)
inner zealot
light prism
wait wait
are you just looking in gzdb to see if its doing anything?
you might have gl elements disabled
which will mean 3d floors dont show
go into visual mode and press [tab]
light prism
think of it like this
the 'control' is controlling the 'dummy', making the dummy dance
ionic stratus
Makes sense though. I just wasn't aware it was a thing. Now I am. XD
But yeah, I'm just doing some basic map dickery as I learn the basics. Making rooms, doors, etc.
And looking at examples of where people make these complex intricate ceilings and crying because I just have otacons and rectangle rooms. T_T
light prism
making complex intricate stuff is for later
make enjoyable layouts first
no point in being able to map pretty if its all just bland corridors with nothing interesting happening
ionic stratus
True.
inner zealot
That applies even when you are a bad ass at mapping
ionic stratus
But yeah, I'm trying to build a hangar themed map. And I mean like, an actual hangar, not E1M1. ;P
light prism
oh ok
inner zealot
Gameplay first, fluff later.
light prism
i just got home from 10hour shift
ionic stratus
With actual landing bays, observation decks, a control tower, waiting area, etc etc.
ionic stratus
Funny enough I found a solution to my shuttlecraft problem and found a prefab voxel prefab. ;3
ionic stratus
Nah, it's just a decorative item.
Just something to sit in the hangar bays so they actually, y'know, feel hangar-y.
ionic stratus
Well, I found a prefab I was able to import.
light prism
but you got it working in-game alright?
ionic stratus
Yeah.
light prism
cool
ionic stratus
@royal wave Little late.
ionic stratus
@royal wave The problem was I had the wrong rendering mode enabled.
royal wave
No you're going to learn this, not copy and paste
light prism
what?
royal wave
copy and pasting is the worst way to learn
light prism
he got 3d floors working from scratch, he just had advanced mode disabled
royal wave
Well, I found a prefab I was able to import.```@royal wave That's for something else.
prisma saddle
I probably use the "Make door" function a bit too often.
light prism
pines after kevan
ionic stratus
Thanks though.
prisma saddle
I do like how convinient it is to just, select a sector and have a door instantly though.
ionic stratus
Doors were fun. I found out about the whole 'need to make the sides one sided' thing by dumb luck.
light prism
you mean the sides face outwards?
ionic stratus
yeah.
light prism
you wouldnt be able to pass through a door if the lines were one sided 😛
ionic stratus
If they're doublesided the door jams.
light prism
what.
now you've lost me
the FRONT SIDE has to be facing outwards to work
otherwise the player can't use the door
ionic stratus
Yeah, when I say sides, mean like...Doorframe.
light prism
like the inside edges where the DOORTRAK texture usually sits?
ionic stratus
Yeah.
light prism
uh
im not sure what youre getting at
they can technically be one or two sided lines, as long as if there's a ceiling behind the line, it is higher than the dropped ceiling of the door
because a door will open but only to the height of the next highest ceiling
ionic stratus
Hang on, maybe it'll be easier if I just show you a screenshot.
light prism
so if it's 'jamming' its probs because there are other sectors with similar heights attached to them
or you have somehow misreferenced a sector or something
ionic stratus
So this is my door setup. The selected linedefs are the ones I had to make one sided to make the door work.
light prism
yeah because there are sectors on both sides
i bet their ceiling height is at the floor, like the door, right?
ionic stratus
Probably. They were basically there to make an actual doorframe or it would look, y'know...bad. ;P
light prism
but you could just delete those sectors entirely
if you want walls there
rather than having ceiling-to-floor 'walls'
because the door searches the sectors it is physically connected to, finds those sectors, and goes 'oh ok i dont even need to move because the closest ceiling is the same as my existing ceiling height'
ionic stratus
I see. I guess I'm wondering how I'd make the same thing visually using your method though. o.O
light prism
show me the 3d mode view
ionic stratus
One sec
light prism
technically it does still move, it just moves 0
ionic stratus
don't mind the textures, they're bad because I haven't done anything major with em yet. ;P
light prism
yeahhh those are walls
just go into sector mode (S)
hover over the sectors to the left and right of the door
and hit 'delete'
youll have to re-paste the texture but it should look identical
except there aren't unnecessary sectors
ionic stratus
Actually it turned out fine. Thanks for the tip. 😃
light prism
basically if an area is completely unreachable and basically exists to create a wall, its unnecessary
all outer sector edges are walls
you can see the difference, one sided lines are white, double sided are grey
ionic stratus
Oh yeah, is there any way to mirror a copy pasted selection? I'd ideally be using this bay multiple times after I get it finished since the hangar would have multiple bays.
I know you can rotate a selection or stretch it, but stretching doesn't seem like the best way to mirror it.
light prism
yes
you see the tabs on the very right edge of the screen?
if you copy/paste, while the paste area is still selected, you can hover over the top right edge
it will show paste properties
'Flipping' is at the bottom
there may or may not be hotkeys, idk
oh there are keybinds under tools->preferences
but they are not bound to anything by default
ionic stratus
Gotcha.
ionic stratus
;P
light prism
there's a cute little trick you can do with doors if you open the east door
as well as an example of how to use polyobjects and a few transfer things
ionic stratus
Neat stuff there. 😮
ionic stratus
So another question, if I have to add backsides to existing walls at some point, is there any way I can just copy over the properties of the front?
Or do I have to just select all the linedefs in question and add a backside?
light prism
just draw a sector behind the wall to make it twosided
i mean theres no point in a back side unless there's some physical area that you can actually inhabit
ionic stratus
Well, here's why I ask.
Oh, blah, dual monitor capture. hang on
See the tag 1 area? That's going to eventually be a control/observation tower, and would need to be able to see the other parts of the map from the outside. Like the hangar bay on the south side.
MUCH better. Good thing monitor 2 doesn't have anything compromising on it. ;P
light prism
yes
the problem is you cant really 'see' through the void
i mean you can but you get various visual glitches depending on what version of doom you are running
ionic stratus
Yeah, so I'd need to make a sector around all of it, right?
light prism
all the black area is null space
yeah, you need to physically model what it looks like from the outside
ionic stratus
I figured that much.
light prism
keeping a 'void' area of 1-sided lines as the walls between the insided and out
then you can use sectors between them as windows or doors
ionic stratus
I figured I'd have to make a new sector surrounding all of it to be the outside area.
You're saying that's not what to do?
light prism
see?
consider all negative space as solid
only where a sector exists can there be heights
ionic stratus
I think I get it.
light prism
the windows between the outside and inside are just sectors/'rooms' with their floor/ceiling heights set to make them appear as windows
ionic stratus
Oooooh. Okay, now I get it. I was thinking too literally about how to do it I think.
light prism
have you done mapping for other games before?
ionic stratus
Only a bit for Serious sam waaaaaay back in the day.
light prism
oh okay, that would have been brush-based
this is more like the inverse of that
(not really but go with it)
in a brush-based system you place solids in the void
in a 2.5d system you draw sectors that act as encapsulating areas (rooms)
of course they dont need to be 'rooms'
all a sector is at the base level is a shape that actors can exist inside
and it has a floor height and a ceiling height
and obviously a lot of mapping is finding pleasing ways to arrange heights
ionic stratus
So how to things like elevators work? I'm trying to find tutorials and they're going into scripting...I didn't think they needed that? o.O
light prism
they dont really
unless you want complex lookin' ones
hold on ill make you some examples
ionic stratus
Oh wait, I think I just wasn't looking at the right actions.
light prism
basically theyre just like doors but different heh
most actions you can activate either change the height of a floor or ceiling in some way, or the light level
ionic stratus
Yeah, i got it working.
golden drum
Weirdly enough, splinter cell versus mode mapping has the same sort of making-empty-space method that doom mapping has
where level geometry makes rooms instead of solid objects
light prism
well a lot of games do
golden drum
and that's true 3d
light prism
its more evolved into the 'cell' technique though
where they use prefabs with simple mesh collisions on a cell grid
but void space is still considered as space in those games, similar to brush-based games
like if you can escape the level geometry you can jump off and fall into negative nothingness
golden drum
ye most games do that
light prism
in doom you cant even do that, you can noclip outside the boundaries but you are still counted as part of the nearest sector, thats why your height is equivalent to the sector you are closest to existing in
the void is literally void
i mean in vanilla if you saw into the void it would NOT draw, resulting in HOMS where it just redrew the previous frame in the empty space
ionic stratus
Okay, so now I got a weird visual issue. I suspect I goofed somewhere on my 3d floor or something because the textures for the lift area are like...Vibrating?
light prism
oh you probably have a 3d floor overlapping an actual floor
ionic stratus
If that makes any sense?
light prism
'flickering' is probably more correct
'z-fighting' is the technical term
when two surfaces are trying to draw in the same position
golden drum
Ayy @light prism I have a sector which is a switch potruding from a raised platform, whcih is set up to lower the platform and the switchs sector to the lowest floor. Problem is, when I use it, the switchs sector goes down a little bit, but the platform goes down all the way, leaving behind a pillar with many switches on it
Omfg that loosk like a riddle
I'm mapping in vanilla btw
Anyway what's up with that and how can I fix it?
golden drum
This
light prism
join it to a control sector outside the map
oh you want the switch texture to not be a pole?
golden drum
Well
light prism
you dont mind the pole part, you just dont want it to be a switch texture repeating allt he way down?
golden drum
the sector the switch is on the and platform has the same tag
I want them both to go down
light prism
ohhhhh
golden drum
but the pole just stops
light prism
mmmm in vanilla not entirely sure
probably you can do something with controls off the side
hold on, ill experiment
ionic stratus
Hrm, may have run into a new dilemma due to 3D floors.
light prism
got it
light prism
because the action is 'lower to lowest floor' the nearest floor it finds when it starts is the platform at its high point
thats why it stops well short
the solution is in the wad
golden drum
one sec
light prism
the action doesnt recognize the movement of the other floor after it has been told to move
lower to lowest floor just passes it the lowest floor height at that moment
sector movement is pretty rigid - you cant cancel or interrupt it, you have to wait it out before passing new commands
@ionic stratus what is your issue
ionic stratus
Lemme grab a shot real quick.
light prism
there are other ways around sector movement issues, there is Sector_SetLink in ACS, but that doesnt work under vanilla so meh
ionic stratus
So basically, the middle is a lift that takes you up to the top of the 3D floor that's meant to be the control tower. Unfortunately, it's looking at a nearby 3D floor as the nearest floor I suspect, and thus won't come down to ground level.
golden drum
I think I know why my lift screwed up
light prism
i believe that the lift will ignore 3d floors entirely
ionic stratus
The two tags are for 3D floors. Tag 1 is most of it, tag 2 was needed because the corridor to the lift goes under the floor.
Although I guess I could just redo the whole thing so the lift is on the easternmost edge.
That would remove the 3D floor requirement entirely.
ionic stratus
A link? You mean like, to define the bottom of the lift?
light prism
like that example in my examples wad
with the door and the switch that lets it open higher
the sector can be 'tricked' to another height if it is sneakily connected to another sector that is at your desired height
so for your example, draw two tiny squares outside the map area somewhere
then select your lift sector and then one of the off-map sectors
and hit J
that will JOIN them
ionic stratus
Do they have to be squares? Or do triangles work? For some reason I like using triangles for this purpose. >.>
light prism
yes, triangles work
ionic stratus
Alright, one sec.
light prism
make sure you select your lift sector first
because joining uses the properties of the first sector
(you can see selection order as the red number)
prisma saddle
Do shapes with more than 4 sides work?
ionic stratus
Okay, so once I join my platform (since that's the actual editor term) and this outside control sector, what next?
light prism
semantics
any shape works, as long as it has at minimum three sides (to form a sector)
ok, so the contrrol sector has ANOTHER sector next to it
with its floor height set at the desired level of the lift
ionic stratus
Assuming the lift is at the top, it needs to be at the bottom height?
ionic stratus
Alrighty.
light prism
the sector is never seen and is merely being used for values
light prism
thats up to your setup
if youre on top of your 3d floor, and the lift is at that point, then yes, that is top
and the control for floor should be set at the floor height under that 3d floor
ionic stratus
Okay, so the first one I made and joined, that should be set to the top of the lift's height?
light prism
the first one you joined is now the same sector as the lift
any change you make to it will be seen
because they are the same sector
ionic stratus
Ah, okay
ionic stratus
no.
light prism
ok good
ionic stratus
The area around it is.
light prism
that is another can of worms
ionic stratus
Although I just noticed the first control and the lift are not at the same height.
But since they're joined, moving one moves both.
light prism
they should damn well better be at the same height
and have the same light level and texture
ionic stratus
How do I de-join?
light prism
press M to make sector mode
click joined sectors
btw if joining contiguous areas, shift-J will join and remove all two sided lines between areas
light prism
making a single unbroken shape outline
light prism
it wont get rid of vertices where lines were drawn from though
light prism
the second control should be set to the height of the top of the 3d floor
ie its ceiling height
ionic stratus
So the second control will be higher up than the first?
light prism
wait wait
ionic stratus
Actually wait...Now I'm confused.
light prism
sorry the lift STARTS at the second floor right?
ionic stratus
Yeah. Lift starts at the top, goes down.
light prism
ok, the second control should be floor height
ionic stratus
The 3D floor is the second floor.
ionic stratus
Okay, that's what I thought. XD
light prism
then give the sector lines repeatable+player walks over+PlayerPressesUse+Platform Lower->Wait->Raise
so that he can lower it by walking over, and get back up by pressing use
unless its a one way trip
ionic stratus
Oh it has that.
light prism
kkk
ionic stratus
Oh wait, just had a derp moment myself. The two controls should be physically joined, shouldn't they. XD
golden drum
Well I feel retarded
I was confused af with the lowest floor part because I thought it meant lower floor on the map, not lowest adjacent floor
light prism
ah yeah
in order for it to recognize it as the nearest floor level
they need to be connected
by 'connected' i mean 'share a two-sided line'
its not enough to be joined at the vertice
golden drum
Well What I'm using now is a tiny 1px * 1px hole in the switch set to the desired height
light prism
well you dont even need that if you look at my example
but if that suits you, fine
using controls is far more useful though
ionic stratus
Hrm, lift's not moving at all
golden drum
oh I see what you did there. I never though of using merge geometry
thx bro
you are a legend
ionic stratus
Lemme have a look, thanks. 😄
Oh wait, I think I see the problem. Lemme try something here.
...Nope. Apparently that wasn't it. Better take another look. x.x;
I'm pretty sure I have this set up right, so I'm not sure what's wrong. I'm going to feel stupid if it's something I overlooked. x.x;
light prism
you can send me if you like
ionic stratus
Sure. Gimme a sec.
light prism
ohhhhhh
the line is facing the wrong way
it needs to be facing 'toward' where the player will be standing
press f to flip line facing in linedef mode (L)
another thing though
why is that 3d floor necessary
there is no space underneath it
you could raise the underside to create walkable space underneath, that is the whole point of 3d floors
in this case you could just have a regular floor that is high up
@ionic stratus
like this
ionic stratus
That would work?
ionic stratus
Okay I'm still a tad confused. Yo're saying I don't need 3D floors at all?
Also wow, forgot to face the lines out...Yep, it was something simple.
light prism
not for an area where there isn't non-contiguous vertical space
as long as you only require one floor height and one ceiling height for an area
3d floors simply break that vertical space up
like a 'brush' would in most other game engines
ionic stratus
Well, the corridor does run underneath the room, so I need the one at tag 2, right?
light prism
overuse of 3d floors can lead to frame droppage, so its best to only use them when necessary
ionic stratus
Right. I'll keep that in mind. Still learning and all. 😉
That said I appreciate the help. 😃
Honestly once I get the layout done, I'm kinda dreading textures. those are a whole nother beast in terms of making them look good.
light prism
you can spend ages texturing
ionic stratus
And then lighting...@.@
golden drum
Believe me, good lighting can make a world of difference
light prism
golden drum
↑ That ↑
ionic stratus
...I don't even wanna know how many sectors of lighting that is. T_T
Is that from your 10tex map?
ionic stratus
Jesus fuck that sector count... @.@
I've got a long road ahead of me, don't I... x.x;
light prism
for that map i have used gradient brightness transfers
which you can see in editing_examples.wad
golden drum
No visplane overflow yet boiiis
light prism
are you trying to break vanilla?
golden drum
Nope that's an actual map meant for actual gameplay
unreal oyster
retro, you don't need to use that many sectors or zdoom lighting tricks if you don't want to, some of the prettiest stuff is made with low sector counts, such as BTSX
light prism
of course
it depends what kind of aesthetic you're going for
stark contrast has its place
and dynamic lights never existed in vanilla
ionic stratus
Well, what I'd like to do with this map once it's fleshed out is try to find a balance between Doom 3's atmosphere and Doom 1 and 2 being, well...Y'know.
Good. ;P
I mean, I don't think Doom 3 is terrible but it really was a huge departure from the old days.
light prism
so steampunk without being too dark
ionic stratus
But the atmosphere and whatnot was damn good. I can't deny that about it.
light prism
baibai
ionic stratus
Interesting, and.,..Quite broken yes.
I can easily get stuck on it and clip through it
Seems you could use this to make a train/tram if you sealed it off while it moved though...
Oh christ looking at it, I have no idea how this voodoo works.
light prism
oh. have you played hexen?
ionic stratus
Yep
light prism
yeah, that is the second part
so the tram is an outline shape which is a polyobject, but the polyobjects lines are made of portals
a polyportal
a normal polyobject is just solid lines
but this one is a portal into the interior of the tram
which you can see mapped out next to it on the left
haughty flower
ionic stratus
dumb question. Cat mentioned last night there was a way to remove excess vertices when merging sectors together, but it doesn't work on vertices made by drawing lines. is there a way to do that with line drawn sectors/rooms? Example, I'm doing point to point drawing to ensure a shape is perfect, but the final shape doesn'tg NEED all those vertices to maintain its shape.
Or do I just have to manually delete the excess ones?
ionic stratus
Anyone mind giving an opinion on a layout? I should note room shapes/sizes and crap are definitely not final (I really need to learn how to make non rectangle rooms. I know people say 'Just don't make them' but...It's kinda hard to come up with believable room shapes that aren't something crazy like a triangle/parallelogram when you're going for semi realism)
haughty flower
Send pics
haughty flower
Ohhh cool
It looks cool bro
But isn't this one corridor a bit too long?
I try to make as less corridors as possible
Because from what I've seen, people don't usually long corridors
ionic stratus
Corridors will likely get trimmed down somewhat, yeah.
None of the rooms actually have anything in them yet. I'm just doing layout to start.
I'm also trying to figure what I can do to make things less flat. The only areas with any major elevation changes right now are the stairwells that lead to each hangar bay's observation deck.
But I don't want to have elevation changes just for the sake of having them because in terms of a building design, it wouldn't make as much sense, y'know?
But yeah, the whole idea of the map design is based off E1M1's hangar except with the thought of "What if it was more designed like an actual hangar/spaceport?" So in other words nothing like E1M1 actually ;P
haughty flower
ionic stratus
If this actually goes anywhere (heh, we'll see, right?) it would be the first level in a set, so it's not meant to be gigantic or anything.
I also didn't want to make an overly linear map. I'm actually not a fan of point a to point b design and like maps that don't require you to check out every inch to complete them, but can still reward you for doing so.
ionic stratus
@exotic moss Well thank you 😃
Now admittedly how to make the map more interesting/fun will be the challenge. Although there's a second half to it that should be more interesting.
exotic moss
I have just started messing with the map editor too
golden drum
@ionic stratus what's the grid size on that pic
ionic stratus
Why do you ask? 😮
haughty flower
I think I've accidentally fucked my colour pallete up...?
Oh no, it's actually the texture pack I'm using, jeez thought for a sec I had fucked it up somehow because I was checking it later.
ionic stratus
I need to look into how one uses texture packs and properly makes a pk3 and such at some point, I suspect.
haughty flower
here's a hint: just forget the TEXTURE1 lump and just use the patches as individual textures
after converting them to png
saves time and effort
haughty flower
patches are the individual lumps that are used in textures
if you use them as textures themselves and ignore the shitty ass TEXTURE1 lump, then you can just slap shit into your mod's TEXTURES folder or TX_ namespace and call it good
like any time-saving lazy person like me would do
that's only for UDMF ^
and it's buggy af
we prOS gotta use P_START and P_END
and F_START and F_END.
ionic stratus
Texturing is going to be fun, from what I can tell. Is it usually preferred to make your walls fit the textures if it's a repeating one, or is scaling them okay?
haughty flower
boom format gay
hexen format gay
original doom format gay
"udmf gay" I saw that
ionic stratus
Or like, should I just be making my walls a multiple of 64 pixels or something to ensure they fit?
haughty flower
udmf only straight format
only flats have got to be 64x64.
max texture size is around 256x(something)
I think.
unless you're a cool kid like me
then you just slap uneven ratio flats into the F_ namespace or FLATS folder
keep in mind,
only cavemen use boom, chocolate doom, etc
and make the wad GZDoom-only compatible and have no one play them because UDMF wads usually turn out generic and bad
royal wave
I never seen anyone complain a wad was GZDoom exclusive since most people use it anyways
or you know
aren't that much of a bitch to just download it to play a mod
haughty flower
but tbh I rarely see any UDMF wads, and something even more rare is a good UDMF wad.
ionic stratus
But yeah, textures . Do people usually scale them to make them fit, or make the walls the right length to fit them?
royal wave
I made some half decent ones that use UDMF
haughty flower
real men fit the walls to the textures, not the textures to the walls
royal wave
Gonna be using it for the TC I'm making
haughty flower
but they gotta be divisible by 8, that's just a rule of god terry himself
if a wad's gonna use UDMF I usually expect it to be a terry lol
shadow bone
What even are you talking about
haughty flower
benis business
shadow bone
UDMF is just a map format and it makes mapping with advanced features easier.
haughty flower
best map format since canned fried diet bread
ionic stratus
So try to stick to multiples of 8, huh?
royal wave
or use UDMF and have no regards for any texture size
ionic stratus
I mean, I know you can scale textures but.
Though, god, the more I look at advanced maps, the more I'm like 'How will I ever get that good. D:'
haughty flower
Only reason I use boom is for compatibility reasons tbh.
And maybe, just maybe, because I like it.
here's a hint: make a shit ton of sectors
but not CHADBASE ammounts
"Greetings, mortal. Are you ready to suck dick"
go make your dick suck itself
lol what
ionic stratus
I guess the biggest challenges I'm seeing are #1-How to make more interesting rooms when I'm not aiming to go totally abstract like classic doom levels do, and when/how to add elevation changes when a map's theme doesn't really have a lot of viability for it.
haughty flower
Lifts
Use lift linedefs so players can pull down plaforms like their pants, add buttons, maybe have a pit that the player needs to fall down, maybe make a staircase, idk
ionic stratus
I see. I'm trying to go for the more semi realistic map design Duke 3D embraced, versus abstract like Doom used, even though apparently realistic maps aren't considered popular in Doom for gameplay reasons.
Other maps might be easier to do elevation changes on, the first one I have is a sort of hangar/spaceport though. So yeah.
Only spots where I see elevation changes/lifts working are control tower access and the observation decks for the hangar bays.
haughty flower
Dunno man, I guess you shouldn't aim for realism.
go abstract as fuck
let yourself flow free
do not leave your cheeks vulnerable to the horrors of scrumpulous "realistic" mapping
see how it turned out with Brutal Dum Black Edition
well just ignore all the brutaldoom sub-mods
prisma saddle
If you're planning on doing realistic and detailed map design, don't detail with sectors.
Also, get ready to do alot of scripting.
And spriting, and maybe some 3D model and voxel stuff.
haughty flower
type of scripts I make when I have to make scripts
light prism
sup stinkers
haughty flower
Sup
light prism
just got home from work
ionic stratus
Sup Cat. And well, like, I don't want hyper realism. I just want more of a 'It actually has a layout something like this thing would actually have'
light prism
work all weekend 😦
prisma saddle
Ah,
light prism
@ionic stratus - you'll find that's what they initially planned in the Doom Bible too, but ditched it for abstract level layouts due to it basically being more fun
ionic stratus
Like that initial pic I showed Mammoth of a basic layout for my Hangar "redo." And yeah, I read about that Cat.