As long as it's got effort put into it I'll give actual constructive criticism, I swear :P
#classic-doom-maps-mods
unreal oyster
severe seal
Definitely effort 😄
vocal crypt
@inner zealot , changed the startup title thing to have colors to reflect that Zelda title picture thing.
inland ice
If anyone would like there mod on my forums, just dm me with the mod and proof that it's yours
inland ice
I will gladly upload it myself
haughty flower
eh.
hallow wraith
Does anyone have any tips on good level design... I want to make a doom wad for the first time in forever
hallow wraith
I haven't made one in a long time
haughty flower
also make sure you use a ton of textures and not the same one all the time
hallow wraith
I have trouble making my levels flow well and coming up with a creative level design
and Balancing it out and curving the diffuculty properly
haughty flower
hm
hallow wraith
I try to imagine the whole level i want to make but my mind stalls sometimes
My mind stalls and then i can't think any creative ideas
unreal oyster
@hallow wraith which format do you map in?
hallow wraith
Zdoom in Hexen format mostly .... but sometimes Gzdoom UDMF because i can scale textures in UDMF
Sometimes Zdoom in Doom Format too
I know how to do basic ACS and Decorate
unreal oyster
i'd say it's best to start with Doom format if you are having issues creating a layout
Doom format means you end up focusing more on the layout than ZDoom features
which is important when you're starting out
hallow wraith
Ok
Im good at detailing rooms ... im just not as good with level layout
Is it better to make one complete room at time or make all the rooms then detail them?
hallow wraith
Im trying to come up with a layout
vocal crypt
Anyone know good "replacements" for the vanilla bulletpuffs?
haughty flower
make it so everytime you shoot a wall it just creates an actual small hole in the wall
so eventually you can shotgun your way through a wall to another room
or shoot out of the map
haughty flower
idk
warped rampart
The BFG 9000
remote spade
Doot.
severe seal
Excellent.
half adder
I noticed everyone uses the Doom 2's first level outside area for testing purposes lol
i thought I was just doing that cause i was lazy
vocal crypt
well it's one of hte few levels with a open area
half adder
yeah plus its like super easy to get to
unreal oyster
yeah but this is a better test area https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=57221 😛
vocal crypt
but, it's got ugly textures! /s
half adder
I'm probably gonna use that one from now on, I kinda wanted to go look for a test map
thanks @unreal oyster
inner zealot
It's not that hard to make a big open map
half adder
it isn't and I considered doing it a couple times but never bothered cause doom 2's map 1 kind of just served my needs well enough
half adder
plus sometimes I also want a smaller room for testing certain weapons that say, bounce off walls or whatever
unreal oyster
@inner zealot SLADE 3 is the only one really worth considering
inner zealot
Any dedicated mapping stuff?
I've been thinking about running GZDoom Builder in Wine
unreal oyster
SLADE 3 has a map editor which is pretty comprehensive
and GZDB isn't compatible with Wine
you'd have to use a VM
inner zealot
Ah
At that point I'd be better off just doing the mapping on the other PC, then
Really only moved over to this machine because GZDoom kept crashing on that other PC.
unreal oyster
yeah, the issue is that it uses DirectX
vocal crypt
not OpenGL?
unreal oyster
i think ZZYZX (who maintains GZDB-BF) was planning to do an OpenGL conversion at some point, but that's a huge undertaking of course
inner zealot
I guess that only leaves figuring out how to use GZDoom on Ubuntu
I'm still a novice at working this damn thing
Need to make up for lost ground with Zelda Doom
At least get a titlemap done, or something
remote spade
What.
shadow bone
For what it's worth, I've gotten GZDB loading in Wine. Haven't tried to do anything with it yet, but it loads fine and seems functional.
lavish hollow
@inner zealot if you ever need motivation, just think about how you could be the fourth dead Zelda doom project
hallow wraith
I keep running out of ideas for my map after the first few rooms
severe seal
@hallow wraith Classic or snapmap?
hallow wraith
Classic
haughty flower
@hallow wraith usually when i'm out of ideas i just start drawing a layout on paper, from there on out i make it in GZDB, and add gameplay and decoration etc
it works
for me. :p
hallow wraith
Draw random shapes?
severe seal
Try thinking through all the tricks in Doom 2, different types of encounters... think about contrast between rooms, heigh differences, what triggers are available (floor, ceiling, lift, door, etc.)
haughty flower
or that
severe seal
I built something in my map that I'd never seen before, and it only came about through a series of accidents
I don't think I executed it as well as I could have though so I'll try again 😄
inner zealot
Hell, you can even sketch maps out in MSPaint
hallow wraith
I feel like i need to plan my map down to every room, encounter, effect, and little detail in one sitting or else it will end up bad
hallow wraith
Am i overthinking this?
haughty flower
just work on a basic layout
make the rooms first and all
then go with decorations, monsters, secrets, weapons etc
unreal oyster
generally my process is, i draw out the starting area
and then i kinda think "what could i do to add on to this"
and that's kinda where i decide on the general theme
for example, my current WIP map is a small techbase surrounded by caves and mountainous areas
(or, at least, as close as you can get to mountainous areas in doom format 😛)
and then i kinda just start drawing out areas, importantly making sure to leave room for later expansion
(for reference, my current map https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/70830-post-your-doom-picture-part-2-get-yer-ribbons-here/?page=301#comment-1773409)
i think it's important to think of your map not as a map, but as a combination between a map and a 3d structure
a whole lot of a map is how "believable" it feels
i can't really "believe" in a map that's just a series of shapes strung together, even if the encounters are really good
the best maps have this feature to them where you can truly believe that this place could exist in some universe
even if the purpose of the place isn't particularly obvious
like, take ancient aliens for example - i can believe that the world of ancient aliens could exist somewhere in some other universe, because of how "natural" the layouts feel
they flow into themselves and have believable shaping, and they feel like something has built them (in the case of buildings) or they feel like these places occured naturally (in the case of natural areas)
the easiest way to do that imo is to combine inside and outside areas
buildings in real life are never closed in and cut off
they have windows and doors leading to the outside of them
and that lends itself very nicely to map design
it's very easy to add some outside areas to your maps and it adds a lot to a layout for not too much effort
also @hallow wraith i'd advise you to join this discord - https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=57006
the current Joy of Mapping session is in testing phase so you won't be able to submit a map until the next one, but it's definitely a helpful session imo
(course, i'm biased because i'm a moderator of it but shhhhhhh)
if anything, there are many mapping veterans who can give you really good, helpful advice
umbral sail
@unreal oyster your map looks nice
hallow wraith
What makes a good encounter and How do i balance ammo and items good?
carmine badge
well uh
you first need to play a lot through doom and doom 2 in order to have a concept of a good ammo/monster/healh balancing in the first place
for an example few would want to fight a cyberdemon with a basic weapon such as the pistol though wads like cyberdreams are an exception because you have other ways to defeat a cyberdemon
unreal oyster
"good ammo/monster/healh balancing"
doom 2
lol
i'd say it's much better to look to newer wads created by the community for that
doom 2 is fucking weak compared to stuff the doom community produces nowadays
umbral sail
^
carmine badge
so when you're making an encounter, you want to first know where monsters should be placed: for an example imps can be placed both close and far to the player, so where you use them doesn't matter as they're 'universal' to some extent - they can melee and they shoot fireballs which deal a considerable amount of damage, so you can make them act like snipers or whatever
zombiemen (shotgunners and chaingunners) can be placed anywhere as well, they're deadly in combat wherever the hell you put them
however zombiemen with the rifles are least effective on a distance, which requires you to put them close to the player - they have a small health pool and barely wish to shoot when put at a distance. it is recommended to put rifle zombiemen in groups as they have small healthpools and only that way will they be a considerable threat once the player gets the shotgun
pinkies obviously need to be placed somewhere close to the player for pretty obvious reasons, and it is recommended to put a large group of pinkies once the player gets stronger weapons like ssg, rocket launcher, chaingun and on
hell knights/barons are basically buffed imps so they can be used alike, however overdoing them at any point in the wad (except if you go for a slaughter wad) will interest very few players and in order to make the fight fair, arm the player with shotgun/chaingun/ssg and give them a lot of ammo and health
cacodemons are also one of the tough to kill monsters so it's recommended that you arm the player with at least a shotgun before you make an encounter with these flying meatballs. later on in the wad, as the difficulty increases and the player gets armed with more weapons, then you can freely put 3-4 cacodemons in a room (obviously make it large and with obstacles that will provide cover for the player) but still, whether it's the 10th or the 20th map in the wad, provide enough ammo and health for the encounter
when it comes to archviles, it's important that you don't make them an annoying encounter as in forcing the player to kill a shitload of monsters among with some of the tougher ones like hell knights, barons, cacodemons and so on and then unleash an archvile and provide no cover that will free the player of one of those magic things that archviles do and put on fire on the player that will eventually explode. so, provide a shitton of ammo and health for the player (as well as cover) before making an encounter with the archvile
as of the mancubus i think it's pretty obvious where they should and shouldnt be used, i mean there's not much to discuss so
as of the lost souls and pain elementals, like archviles, dont overdo them or else you'll annoy the player - speaking of lost souls, 2-5 in a small corridor isnt so bad, but more will be really fucking annoying. pain elementals shouldnt come in with groups more than 2 because at that point it gets annoying as fuck
when it comes to cyberdemons and spider masterminds, plan them as mini bossess and obviously provide cover, ammo and other important stuff. before you do this, obviously arm the player with at least a rocket launcher or a plasma gun.
in order to plan out the basic encounters like challenging the player with basic monsters like imps, zombies and whatnot, you need to have a feel for those and im sure you'd catch it when you play through doom and its wads, its no real philosophy - however you need to drastically make the levels harder and harder as the player progresses through
when it comes to making secrets, finish the level first (gameplay, layout and all that) and then look through the map, find a few spots where a secret would come in handy (for an example if there's a big fight in the next room, make a secret room that would get the player past it, maybe provide a secret that would arm the player for the big fight or something else?) and when you're doing secrets be more creative - pushing through random walls is no fun, and it'll either degrade to extremely obviously placed secrets or extremely hardly placed secrets so, think up of other ways to access a secret area. maybe make a pass-through wall instead? make a switch on one side of the map that is hidden (not secret, just not really seen at first sight, hide it with like trees or something) and so that it opens a door on the other side of the map, maybe make a switch that will activate something via forcing the player to shoot the switch, maybe force the player to go through hazards (nukage, "cursed" blood, lava) in order to reach a secret area, and there's a lot of more creative ways to make a secret room too apart from all these examples i've mentioned
when you're making a layout, make sure it's not linear (linear as in go run this hallway that'll lead you straight to the end of the map and include monsters on the way too) and make sure it's more unique in comparison to what you've done in the previous map - offer the player a choice: either go through this really long way to a room which doesnt have much monsters or much of a threat, or give him a choice to go through this shorter way to the same room but have a lot tougher encounters.
make sure that your map has more gameplay aspects than your previous one, because shooting the exact same monsters in the exact same kind of encounter like in the previous few maps will not interest the players at all
when it again comes to the gameplay of the map, always make sure to throw in a few encounters once in a while which involve some deadly pits, hazards or crushing ceilings which will force the players to be more careful about their step and not making them run around the room in hopes to dodge the enemies' projectiles and whatnot.
if you want to make a labyrnth sort of a layout, then you need to have an idea of what you're going for inside your head first before you start making it. if you start off a labyrnth and have no idea where a dead end, secret or the end of the labyrnth itself will be, you probably shouldnt be making it in the first place
haughty flower
Holy crab
carmine badge
when it comes to decorating the map, you'll have to look at the newer wads because older wads (basically wads before 2000's) and doom/doom 2 itself dont have very nice visuals to offer. find the aesthetic of the map, stick to it until two or three maps later and dont hesitate to inspect other wads' decorations in the map editor you're using. here's a few things you should strictly follow whatever the hell you're doing:
- when you're using a new floor/ceiling texture, always make it have a different height than the previous floor/ceiling
- always perfectly align the textures on walls
- when using a new wall texture, use a support/doorstop texture to 'border' with it
- remember to make the doors use doortrak, check the 'lower unpeg' options (or upper unpeg if you want a door that goes down), and make sure the ceiling of the floor uses the flat20 texture
- decorations come after the layout is done, because if a layout turns out to have imperfections or you changed your mind yet still decorated it, you'll want to blow your brains out within moments
that should be all, if you have more questions, feel free to ask
unreal oyster
"cacodemons are also one of the tough to kill monsters so it's recommended that you arm the player with at least a shotgun before you make an encounter with these flying meatballs." i disagree with this tbh
vocal crypt
Cacodemons are maybe tough if you're using a pistol or a regular shotgun
but chaingun and above, wtf are you going on about
unreal oyster
there's something to be said for placing enemies that the player isn't expected to fight
place a bunch of enemies that the player has no chance of winning against in an area can funnel the player into the next area
then at some point you lead the player back to the first area with more weaponry
you don't have to force the player to fight enemies
the opposite can oftens be used to great effect
you seem to be saying a lot of absolutes in that huge post
and i don't think it's ever good to think that there are a set of rules on exactly what to do
and, this is complete bullshit "1. when you're using a new floor/ceiling texture, always make it have a different height than the previous floor/ceiling"
two examples of Valiant not doing that, right in the first map
and it looks really good - monotexture stairs there would look far duller
vocal crypt
those crates have no textures inside?
unreal oyster
that's intentional
because the doom renderer lets flats bleed, that means you can hide things under the floor
valiant starts up here
and you can't see any enemies
unreal oyster
play on in the level a bit and that area is suddenly populated with monsters
since they've raised the floor up
carmine badge
in short all you really need to know is just by playing doom and its wads, mainly wads if you're going for something more innovative than doom itself
vocal crypt
why si the pistol custom, but not the shotgun?
unreal oyster
because the shotgun doesn't suck in vanilla
vocal crypt
is that a drum magazine, or something else on the pistol?
Tho you're right, the pistol is ass in vanilla
hallow wraith
@carmine badge What are some good wads to get inspired by?
carmine badge
well, there's doom hell on earth made by sgtmarkiv (the guy behind brutal doom) which has a lot of interesting visuals and gameplay aspects, scythe 2 has nice gothic/hellish decorations among with very interestingly planned out monster encounters, deus vult 2 has nice visuals but the wad is mainly focusing on slaughter so you won't learn much gameplay wise from it (unless, again, you're going for a slaughter wad), tei tenga incident has a lot of visuals and interesting gameplay aspects as well, vanguard and valiant as well and there are a few more though i cant really remember them straight off the memory
severe seal
Just want to chime in, I disagree with some of the points made by everyone 😃 I've worked as a game designer and programmer professionally, but I don't have much level design experience, so take with as many grains of salt as you want but.... I don't think the space need to be even remotely believable. I'm a huge fan of abstract design, and I think the capacity for it is one of the best things about early FPS games. Also I don't think that just making a nice layout and then figuring out monsters and secrets later is necessarily the right way to go, because IMO designs should be cohesively designed around ALL aspects of gameplay, which includes monsters and secrets. ex: Dedicated cages for chaingunners and arch-viles, lookouts with bonuses that hint at secret ways to get them, windows into inaccessible areas that allow sniping of enemies not yet triggered, etc.
Visual fidelity is only relevant to the degree that it enhances the fun of the level, and ater a certain point it's just ornamentation.
Some in the community seem to think levels with more elaborate visuals (complex insets with detail textures, gratuitous floor and ceiling height changes with 8 or 16 px border textures, etc.) are inherently better, IMO those details don't matter much compared to the gameplay design. (As an example, I played a TC that was listed in the cacowads for some year as being an amazing TC... it was visually impressive but the custom weapon and enemy mechanics were godawful. Not fun.)
carmine badge
well yeah i've already said that decorations have to come before the gameplay so i don't really see the point you're trying to create
severe seal
don't you mean gameplay comes before decorations?
also that point wasn't necessarily about directly disagreeing with you, I'm just extrapolating based on various wad reviews I've seen online where they'll say THIS IS AMAZING! but it's not actually fun.
carmine badge
yeah i meant it vice versa lmao no idea why i said that
lavish hollow
I agree with swivel, gameplay is more important than visuals. That's why I've been playing so much Quake lately
hallow wraith
I already know how to do visuals decently .... Im trying to learn level design for good gameplay
severe seal
@hallow wraith This might be a weird suggestion but... have you played Half-Life 2?
hallow wraith
yes
severe seal
IMO HL2 provides a great framework for how to think about gameplay design. They essentially take the Mario formula for level design and apply it to FPS.
The Mario formula - introduce a concept in a safe environment and/or by itself, do some variations, introduce another element, do some variations, combine the elements in a much more difficult setting. We don't really have the ability to do that in Doom levels since the mechanics are already established, but the idea that you can devote an encounter to a specific set of learnable mechanics is very important.
Another way to think about gameplay design in Doom is threat prioritzation - how is the player forced to respond to a given situation where there are multiple problems to address? In a big mob that can be made to infight, the priority is just to kite... but add an Arch-Vile, and the priority becomes finding cover or trying to kill the AV first.
lavish hollow
Meh, imo Half Life 1 has the better gameplay, half life 2 was basically a physics test
severe seal
you cray
severe seal
HL1 has more shooting but IMO HL2 is more fun more consistently
But I like physics puzzles and the driving sections
vocal crypt
you both cray
lavish hollow
Shooting doesn't make it better
severe seal
And the grand finale where you get to throw people at other people
Also the gun that shoots energy balls that disintegrate dudes is awesome
lavish hollow
Yeah
I'm not denying that it's fun
I'm just saying half life 1 has better gameplay
severe seal
strongly disagree
lavish hollow
queer jk
severe seal
lavish hollow
unreal oyster
yeah i agree there, HL1 > HL2
mainly because HL1 never trapped me in a room for 3 minutes while characters talk about bullshit
haughty flower
@unreal oyster say, have you noticed the subtle details that DOOM has?
Like the imps climbing across in the background in the first chapter?
severe seal
Video makes a good case, but it's been a while since I played either game
vital shore
I love both games though I do prefer HL1 just because I like the gameplay more, its focused and simple.
I tolerate half life 2's taky bits because unlike every shooter that came after that tried to copy that tyle, the dialouge was well written tand the characters though genreally not particularly deep were likeabl and just pleasant to listen to
carmine badge
i dont know why are you guys arguing about which game is better, imo they're both more or less the same
you shoot aliens and trained soldiers in both games (except in hl2 you shoot unorganized as hell cops and some transhuman soldiers but it doesn't matter really) except in hl2 you get the gravity gun to toss shit around and some less weapon variety
but i dont know, there's a bit less npc variety in hl2 than in hl so it's a point for hl i guess, so idk
ornate stag
i like hl2 more because the worldbuilding is breathtakinging, the characters have more depth and the overall gameplay is more funny
ofc if u consider hl2 + the episodes
hl1 is still a good shooter but i don't think i would touch it anymore :'DDDD
lavish hollow
I don't think gameplay of a serious game like HL2 should be funny
severe seal
it's not funny ha-ha
it's amusing
@carmine badge "they're both more or less the same" - reductive much?
lavish hollow
That's still... Funny, I don't understand
severe seal
amusing is not inappropriate, but ha-ha funny is inapproriate
in the context of HL2
all the wacky physics stuff you can do with blowing shit up and launching combine soldiers into the air, I think that's what's 'funny'
carmine badge
yeah i doubt funny is the word you're looking for
if you mean half-life 2 is fun and instead you've used funny, then you've got the wrong word
funny means just haha good joke there, it has little to do with the word fun
amusing is the word you're looking for, in case if you've meant that hl2 is fun because it has all those physics features or more creatively designed levels or whatever
if you've meant hl2 is indeed the good joke kind of funny, then i'll ask you to explain
severe seal
@ornate stag @carmine badge demands answers! 😄
ornate stag
yes i mean it is fun to play
carmine badge
also @severe seal im not really reductive when i've said that, i mean is there anything out of the ordinary half-life formula in half-life 2? there's the linear story, there's aliens, there's soldiers (more or less human) to shoot, there's the pretty much same guns in hl2 (if we put the guns that were cut like the gauss cannon, hornet gun thing and the egon gun aside) and you're still gordon freeman, so i dont see what's so different between half-life and half-life 2
unreal oyster
the environments are utterly different
carmine badge
well fucking environments
do you seriously expect a sequel set in black mesa again?
unreal oyster
half-life is very oppressive, while half-life 2 is very open
why are you being so hostile about it lmao
did i even imply that
carmine badge
im not?
unreal oyster
did i ever imply that i expected HL2 to be in black mesa
carmine badge
well then
unreal oyster
i'm just pointing out a pretty big difference between the two
carmine badge
what do you mean by environments are utterly different then
unreal oyster
i said what i meant, "half-life is very oppressive, while half-life 2 is very open"
carmine badge
it's no real secret that the environment is going to change drastically, i mean, black mesa got nuked by the end of the-- oh that
unreal oyster
the two games have very different feels to the way levels are designed
carmine badge
well half-life is set in a facility and partially in an alien borderworld, and half-life 2 is set in an urban environment so it's not really surprising
obviously half-life 2 had to be more open
unreal oyster
i never said that half-life 2 had to be in the same environment as 1
you're arguing against a point i didn't make 😉
carmine badge
well im answering your point why the two games feel differently in level design
so
unreal oyster
i just prefer the more oppressive environments (and subsequently, its atmosphere) that half-life 1 had to half-life 2's
i love both games, though
don't get me wrong
carmine badge
yeah i didnt
ornate stag
yeah hl1 can't beat the alienated earth with its lionants and ravenholm HAHAHA
carmine badge
idk ravenholm was pretty dull
ornate stag
i mean the prisonlevel
carmine badge
dont see why people are praising it, i was like 7 when i played hl2 and didnt get scared at all
ornate stag
no
unreal oyster
but that's just because of my personal tastes
ornate stag
tell me how
carmine badge
opinion
carmine badge
wow i cant believe opinions are objective now
carmine badge
yeah hl2 has a deeper lore and an environment but you know, maybe this guy has a personal preference over it for some reason?
ornate stag
yeah
unreal oyster
i've already explained my reasoning, i prefer the feel of oppression that HL1's environments give
HL1 makes you feel like an unlikely survivor
while HL2 makes you feel like a god amongst men
which isn't exactly helped by everyone worshipping at the sound of your name
ornate stag
yeah freeman is even a resistanceleader in hl2 :'DDDD
why not
i mean he is the star of the series it is just keeping things goning
going*
ornate stag
even the transistions from one episode to another are better thought out in hl2
haughty flower
Yeah.
ornate stag
sorry i meant the episodetransition in the basegame
haughty flower
Yeah, I know.
ornate stag
like u getting out of the mine while u are "crawling up" a long tunnel
to daylight
stuff like this
unreal oyster
freeman's journey isn't really believable at all in either game, lol, because of how they both rely on the assumption that freeman is literally a human god who can handle the entire combine army/xen forces on his own
haughty flower
@unreal oyster Well, at the end of Ep2, they believe that Freeman is all they need against a dozen striders.
They're right. Completely.
unreal oyster
yeah pretty much lmao
unreal oyster
that's the problem i have with the narrative of the HL series, and why i can't really take it seriously
unreal oyster
i like the HL series for the gameplay and atmospheres, and imo HL1 did them both better
ornate stag
no
haughty flower
How's Black Mesa for you, then?
unreal oyster
Black Mesa's great
i like HL1 better still though
but i'd happily replay BM any day
but, anyway, i'm not gonna continue this argument since you're treating your opinion like objective fact lmao
ornate stag
i think u just have a nostalgic relationship with hl1
and can't see its flaws compared to hl2
ornate stag
yeah
ornate stag
i grew up with games like hl1
and some years later
played hl2
and was shocked how crazy hl was getting
u know
they improved just everything
unreal oyster
that's great, man
i disagree
but you can have your opinion, i just want you to be respectful of mine, okay
ornate stag
no :'DDDD
unreal oyster
otherwise there's really no point continuing this
safe timber
ornate stag
okay here is the catch u feel hl1 is the better game in the series because it is more oppressive and is more like a survival-game BUT u missed out on the details hl2 is providing which interms of gamedesign are superior. if u really takeing your time while playing through hl2 u will get the picture
okay engouth of the offtopic sorry
unreal oyster
"internals of game design" are not set in stone, that's also subjective
i did take my time while playing HL2, i didn't rush it
i still preferred HL1
i will say that HL2 is more intuitive in places in its game design, but that's not all a game is good for
imo a good part of a game is its atmosphere and environments, and i felt like HL1 did that better, while still not sacrificing gameplay
ornate stag
okay i give u an example where hl2 improved over hl1 and that will be the last point of this offtopic
haughty flower
half life 2 was corny
lavish hollow
^^
unreal oyster
there are many places where HL2 improved over HL1. i understand that. how many times do i have to say it for you to understand - this is my OPINION. i prefer HL1's atmosphere and environment.
you aren't going to change my mind
lavish hollow
HL1- you play as a scientist fighting for his life
HL2- you're Jesus
One big reason I prefer HL1
haughty flower
I found hl1 to be more mysterious and creepy, really good atmosphere
haughty flower
what? i just got here
haughty flower
oh lol
ornate stag
the industrial level in hl1 where u have tho jump around oin the conveyor shit, which is in mostway just cheap because u get crused by machines or shitty placed sensor-mines
in hl2 there is not on of this shitty jumpingstuff. the only soft version there is is the beachlevel where the antlions attack u when u step on the sand. but it is nor cheap, becaus if u make a mistake u can easily make it undone by just fighting of the antlions
they improved tghe gameplay
got rid of their mistakes
unreal oyster
kyuubi
ornate stag
better gamedesign
unreal oyster
you aren't going to change anyone's mind
lavish hollow
That's your opinion, I found the only level that wasn't good was xen
unreal oyster
people prefer HL1 for reasons other than pure gameplay
lavish hollow
^^^
unreal oyster
boy do i love being blocked by my dumbshit AI teammates
haughty flower
lol
lavish hollow
The fact that you have to shoot your own teammates is a bad thing
ornate stag
well compare the hl2 ai to the hl1 ai and hl2 still beats hl1
lavish hollow
^^
lavish hollow
Even then, you could kill them if you want, saving them is optional unless you want to get all the secrets and such
I never kill them tho
unreal oyster
nah, there are a few mandatory AIs in HL1
ornate stag
yeah in hl2 u aren't dependent on the ai to open a door for u
lavish hollow
Lolwut
haughty flower
wow the generation box set cdkey can be used on steam, i have all half life 1's on steam now
unreal oyster
that's not even true anyway
ornate stag
yes because it is a valve game
unreal oyster
you can consider the huge fucking cutscenes as exactly that
huge cutscenes where you wait for someone to open a door for you
unreal oyster
yeah but you know what would be better than that
no cutscenes at all
like
uh
HL1
unreal oyster
yeah, that's at the beginning of the game though
lavish hollow
Not really
unreal oyster
and it still takes less time than most HL2 cutscenes
which are considerably more boring on the whole
at least something happens in the resonance cascade cutscene
unreal oyster
rather than "characters talk, then someone opens a door"
unreal oyster
HL1 did transistions fine too
unreal oyster
i remember coming out of the pipe to the cliffside in HL1 way better than any HL2 transition
ornate stag
oh military base
carmine badge
why the fuck are you arguing about this in the fucking map/mod/dev text channel take it to offtopic
haughty flower
yeaa get lost lol
ornate stag
yeah so what? it is just a special case here
haughty flower
*gets deported to offtopic
ornate stag
we are talking about gamedesign
unreal oyster
no, move it over please
ornate stag
so its modstuff based
unreal oyster
no it isn't
ornate stag
jajaj
unreal oyster
it's partly my fault but let's move this over
severe seal
I started it
I brought HL2 up first
Trying to talk about how to design a good level 😄
lavish hollow
I prefer HL1 levels tbh
vocal crypt
I prefer BM's rendition of such levels.
HL1 just seems too...blocky for me.
yet I can stand Doom gg
and Quake
vital shore
Perhaps the reason your fine with Doom and Quake's blocky levels may be because their worlds are purposefully abstract, wereas half-life is trying to go for a more realistic setting, I unno
lavish hollow
I feel that half life did have a semi realistic setting, but I disagree that Doom has an abstract setting. Quake does, yes, but Doom has a very clear setting, a space station, the levels just don't really reflect that
lavish hollow
E1M1 = Hangar wtfff???
vocal crypt
they have somewhat of an abstract thing
but compared to D2 and Quake, not much IMO
D2 being Doom 2 btw
severe seal
Doom 2 levels are more abstract true
lavish hollow
Yeah, still compared to quake, it's not much
severe seal
But even E1's levels that don't feel abstract don't make any logical sense
severe seal
And the levels in Hell are just crazy random
lavish hollow
That doesn't mean anything, really
lavish hollow
You can have abstract levels in doom, and non abstract levels in quake
The engine doesn't matter when it comes to abstract-ness
What matters is the levels
severe seal
@vocal crypt not sure what point you're trying to make but possibly that while Quake levels could in theory be more realistic because the engine is 3D, they actually couldn't put more detail in them because of the hardware limitations of the time
Doom levels are on the whole way more complex in design than Quake levels
vocal crypt
I meant design wise but ok
lavish hollow
Design also doesn't really rely on engines, that relies on the mapper and how they design it
severe seal
It's both
Engines have limitations, and they also have design choices that favor different types of designs
lavish hollow
Sure, but the doom engine is more limited than the quake engine, yet the levels are more complex
severe seal
Yup
The reason for that though is the hardware limitations of the computers at the time
They were incapable of running Quake levels that were the complexity of Doom levels
lavish hollow
Well, no I don't think so. I think the main reason was Quake's development was quite rushed, iirc
severe seal
dude, no
Compare Quake's levels to any FPS levels for the next few years
Same level of detail
lavish hollow
Have you looked into the development of quake at all?
There was a lot of pressure on id
severe seal
Yeah, it was a mess because Romero couldn't stop playing DM
severe seal
😄
lavish hollow
K that was funny
severe seal
I know that's not the reason
It was an issue though
Romero's work ethic
I read Masters of Doom but it was years ago
lavish hollow
severe seal
RetroAhoy videos are too goddamn long
vocal crypt
Carmack IIRC wanted to focus on technology stuff
Romero wanted to focus on Desings
*Designs
severe seal
"Let me describe every weapon and enemy in the game in excruciating detail"
lavish hollow
That's the.. Point
unreal oyster
[9:53 PM] swivelmaster: Compare Quake's levels to any FPS levels for the next few years
[9:53 PM] swivelmaster: Same level of detail
not really, Unreal definitely had a higher level of detail than quake levels
lavish hollow
It's basically a documentary
severe seal
@unreal oyster I don't recall Unreal levels being more geometrically complex
vocal crypt
and their depictions in media
lavish hollow
That doesn't mean they aren't detailed
unreal oyster
i think they were, unreal has a lot more natural terrain which is inherently more detailed
vocal crypt
god damn it, anyone know where to find an angled Desert Eagle?
severe seal
I think the reason that Quake's levels are much simpler in design (IE the geometric complexity of the levels, which means they have less gameplay per level) than Doom's has much more to do with how much more processing was required to render and process them than with the process by which they were designed.
lavish hollow
I still don't agree
severe seal
And also, the number of creatures you could animate on screen at any given time was like 10% of what you could do in Doom 2 anyway
lavish hollow
Like what I said, there was a lot of pressure on Id, and it was because of this that Romero left id
severe seal
How does pressure make the levels simpler though?
lavish hollow
They were rushed
severe seal
Can you point me to the mark in the retroyahoy video where this is explained so I don't have watch the whole thing? 😄
lavish hollow
If you have a lot of pressure on you to do something amazing, you're going to mess up
severe seal
Unless you're Valve or Blizzard 😄
lavish hollow
In a bit, I'm watching kitchen nightmares atm
lavish hollow
And id wasn't a multibillion dollar corporation, they were basically an indie team
Wait there's multiple kinds of kitchen nightmares??
severe seal
YES
The British one is WAY better
Less dramatic bullshit
You'll know the difference because Gordon Ramsay narrates the british one himself, whereas the American one has DRAMATIC AMERICAN GUY NARRATOR
Also I know that, Doom 2 was made by 11 people 😃
lavish hollow
Well then don't compare that to valve or blizzard 😀
severe seal
Valve did the same with HL1 though, they had a ton of pressure on them and limited funds and decided to delay the game a year instead of release something they weren't happy with
lavish hollow
Yeah, they delayed, id didn't
severe seal
So which Kitchen Nightmares are you watching?
lavish hollow
I think the American one
severe seal
boo
lavish hollow
I'm American after all, so idek how I would watch the British one
vocal crypt
anyone know angled desert eagle sprites?
severe seal
IMO British one is more educational too, he spends more time teaching people about how to actually run a restaurant instead of getting into arguments
vocal crypt
yes I've tried looking at ZDoom Resource forums
no luck
only centered desert eagle
lavish hollow
I've seen one before in I think a Duke nukem mod for doom
vocal crypt
I'd prefer a non gold one IMO. But hopefully SLADE 3 can fix that with color translation.
huh
Found the non gold one in the forum post thing
remote spade
@vocal crypt You can download a 3D model, and with the powers of photoshop, edit it to look more like a sprite... (?
lavish hollow
@remote spade he said he found one
hallow wraith
Thanks for everyones help earlier
hallow wraith
Right now im trying to visualize my map's layout
verbal cobalt
has anyone seen the 3d model shading in gzdoom? at least for the weapon
vital shore
Yep, it looks great!
shadow bone
Video demonstration for anyone who hasn't seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1tEqZ8gSuk
First is shown the old way, then the new way
hallow wraith
This isn't your average everyday Doom... This is Advanced Doom
severe seal
That's not a Doom, THIS is a Doom!
vocal crypt
not the Doom the city deserves... it's the Doom they needed.
lavish hollow
You mixed it up
lavish hollow
YOU MICSED IT UP
severe seal
I was just making a Corocodile Dundee reference 🤷
lavish hollow
I haven't seen that
severe seal
It's pretty good
What's weird is that the first one is a goofy romantic comedy but the second one involves kidnapping and drug dealers, but still tries to keep the tone light
lavish hollow
Groovy
worldly shard
😉 @lavish hollow
lavish hollow
😂 👌 💯
royal wave
/r/beetlejuicing
worldly shard
Anyways. Recently revisited something I'd began working on a little while ago, Wolfenstein Fire & Brimstone ( the name may be subject to change ) it's essentially a map pack inspired by various wolfenstein games. ( 2009, new order, etc. ) so you can expect to see old nazi manors, futuristic bases, underground layers, maybe even castles. Thought it might be of interest to some of you, here are some screens
worldly shard
Haha. Thanks man! Still far from being done but I am interested to see where this goes.
worldly shard
I'm just doing it for fun at the moment, nothing too serious. It probably won't be done for quite a while but I am hoping to finish it.
umbral sail
@worldly shard and the other project, still in wip or
worldly shard
Yeah, it's something that I'm working on off and on seeing as it's too much to take on all at once. Sort of like a side project
@umbral sail
umbral sail
I see
worldly shard
But yeah to answer all of your questions. It's not too far along, though I am making good progress. The storyline goes like this. The Russians stumbled across an ancient occult manuscript whilst excavating abandoned crypts, the lieutenant, aka Kretzchnezch, accidentally read from the manuscript, thus summoning entities from another realm. It's up to Blazkowicz to find the source of this the rift, and put an end to the madness. @lavish hollow
lavish hollow
Russians instead of nazis?! Sacrilege! (Jk)
worldly shard
XD
lavish hollow
That's pretty cool, tho I can only imagine the manuscript being the Necronomicon from Evil Dead
lavish hollow
I've watched everything Evil Dead, love it all besides the 2013 one
vocal crypt
remind me, is AvED on Starz?
worldly shard
Yeah I agree, 2013 being the remake of the original right?
vocal crypt
f**k the remakes
worldly shard
Yeah I think so @vocal crypt
lavish hollow
It's technically a remake but only kind of
worldly shard
Yeah the remakes were kinda shit, though I think evil dead 2 was good
lavish hollow
Apparently it takes place in the same world as AVED and the other movies, it's just a different cabin, and a different book
worldly shard
Lmao. Totally agree yeah
First was good, but the second was like, a slightly more polished version of the original
vocal crypt
I thought yall was talking the original trilogy, then I realized you meant the remake
lavish hollow
I thought the second was a remake of the first but it turns out with some changes, the first movie is canon to the second
worldly shard
Right on, yeah I don't really recall the films that well because I haven't watched them in a long damn time
I might revisit them though
lavish hollow
I legit downloaded them all on a flash drive because I have no amount of what people call a "life"
worldly shard
Hahaha, nah that's badass man 😂😭
lavish hollow
I've watched them all so many times, I'm actually thinking about making a big retrospective video where I review them all
worldly shard
XD nice
vocal crypt
I've only watched the bloody yes literally end of Evil Dead original
worldly shard
"Who's in my root cellar???"
lavish hollow
"Someone's in my fruit cellar"*
lavish hollow
Lmao
worldly shard
Mm yeahhh
I love the screen I took here, moments before stealthy the nazi
Dank
royal wave
pretty bland hallway
worldly shard
Haha, trust me, something awaits you at the end xD
vocal crypt
?
worldly shard
Lmfao. You'll have to wait and see
lavish hollow
Nooooo
royal wave
that doesn't change the fact it looks boring
lavish hollow
Add some shat on the walls, maybe
worldly shard
Right on
lavish hollow
Like paintings and such
royal wave
If you're deliberately making wolf 3D levels, then I can forgive it
vocal crypt
nazi banners
worldly shard
I mean, it is literally a map that was just created so yeah
vocal crypt
just make sure they're iron crosses for the germans
royal wave
but with those stairs and carpet, you're clearly not
worldly shard
Yeah I'm thinking about adding some small busts/statues, desks and whatnot
Along the sides
But again, I did just make that hallway so.
worldly shard
That map is far from being done, as well as the big open one with the nazi flags in the other screen
vocal crypt
Wolf 3D's title song
worldly shard
You know what has a badass soundtrack? Return to castle Wolfenstein
A classic if you ask me
vocal crypt
the graphics have aged tho
bit blocky, wouldn't you say
tho not as blocky as say HL1
severe seal
I know this was hours ago, but I loved the Evil Dead remake. The actual remake, not the Evil Dead 2.
It was Evil Dead 1 but with a budget and good acting 😄
haughty flower
There was a remake?
royal wave
It was an okay remake
haughty flower
This one? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1288558/
lavish hollow
@haughty flower yes
haughty flower
I seen it. Thought it was kinda crappy. Didn't know it was remake. Assumed it was spin off.
lavish hollow
@severe seal I thought the remake was awful tbh, the acting wasn't even that much better
haughty flower
Not the same without humour really
lavish hollow
^^^^^
severe seal
awful why?
lavish hollow
The original Evil Dead doesn't really have humor tho
severe seal
It does, just not intentionally
lavish hollow
@severe seal it took everything that made evil dead great and made it generic horror movie fodder
haughty flower
kinda like final dest film
severe seal
but Evil Dead invented many of those tropes
lavish hollow
Like?
severe seal
so why not do it again but with the proper resources
lavish hollow
They didn't "do it again" the story was different, and dumb
severe seal
It wasn't dumb, they used kicking a heroin addition as a metaphor
severe seal
It sounds like you just didn't like the execution because it seemed to take itself seriously
lavish hollow
The dumb thing was in the original, there's no villain, just the friendss getting possessed. In the new one, the main villain (that you never fking see) is "the soul taker" what does he do? He takes your soul. Spooky, am I right? The only reason they included him and "the abomination" was to make the movie more modem, but in doing so, they dashed away what made The Evil Dead unique
And no, wtf? The original took itself seriously, but it just ended up being funny
severe seal
Fair enough, you also like Evil Dead 2, which doesn't take itself seriously
lavish hollow
Not in the slightest
severe seal
I don't remember the soul taker thing but it sounds like they were just giving name to the disembodied force that was flying around anyway
lavish hollow
That's obviously not the only reason, but it's one of my personal big ones
Like another thing that really makes no sense, whenever someone gets possessed, they start mutilating themselves
lavish hollow
In the old evil dead's, the demons feel pain
Why are they purposefully hurting themselves???
severe seal
Who cares though?
lavish hollow
Me
severe seal
There are no rules in Evil Dead world, every zombie is different , it's totally inconsistent
lavish hollow
They're not zombies, they're deadites
And yes there are rules, they can be broken but they can almost always be explained
severe seal
meh
When each person gets possessed it happens differently
The only rule is "some crazy shit happens and it needs to be entertaining"
I gotta go to bed though:D
😄
lavish hollow
In the original ED sure, that's actually kind of funny because the director literally hadn't made rules yet
severe seal
lavish hollow
He actually made rules once he made the second movie, the "remake"
And the original evil dead is very questionably Canon
Good night tho
hallow wraith
What is good wad to look at/play to study level design?
glacial skiff
f-furry01.wad
:^)
(Can be found here http://puu.sh/ro5L6/ae5f044ade.zip , map I made)
hallow wraith
A furry wad
umbral sail
I looked at the map and it has nothing to do with the name
hallow wraith
@glacial skiff im downloading it
@umbral sail my internet is being slow... its still downloading... don't spoil it
finally
its done
@glacial skiff How do you make levels like this?
The architecture, room shapes, the use of textures, the height variation
umbral sail
why would I spoil it
unreal oyster
@glacial skiff you've made the map in Doom format, but the way you've done the textures means it only loads in ZDoom anyway
glacial skiff
@unreal oyster It's for a ZDoom-only project anyway
hallow wraith
How do you make maps this good?
glacial skiff
With Doom Builder
@unreal oyster There was no specific reason for that
I believe that since I just didn't need anything beyond what Doom format offered I left it as-is
unreal oyster
alright, fair enough
as long as the project otherwise won't run in PrBoom+/Eternity anyway i'll let you off the hook for that 😛
hallow wraith
how come when i use unsual room shapes it looks bland
hallow wraith
How do you get creative with the floor and celing heights like that map
glacial skiff
Depending on the featureset of EDF/whatever other "thing script" setup that EE uses these days, a port of furry.wad is possible but given the workflow I'm faced with that isn't even a hypothetical for the next couple of years until this mod is released
unreal oyster
also, Diema, you really need to mark your exits 😄
otherwise the player ends up leaving when they still want to explore
hallow wraith
Im not good with being creative with heights
glacial skiff
@hallow wraith The thing I started doing is just genuinely ignoring the concept of 2D space in GZDB as much as possible and imagining what shit I need to draw to do magic with the 3D floor/3D mode plugins
If that makes sense
Like, maybe try thinking less in terms of 2D room shapes and more in terms of 3D spaces
unreal oyster
^^^
remember, you aren't building a 2d map, you're building a 3d map
with a 2d interface
umbral sail
for some reason I just think of real rooms when I do a map
glacial skiff
^ This
umbral sail
you can't do much wrong if youre inspired by real buildings
hallow wraith
Im just afraid if i changes the heights too much it will look out of place
glacial skiff
You can just as easily apply the idea to abstract or even IWAD-style levels
unreal oyster
generally i try to make buildings that don't feel like they belong in our universe, but in some other universe
in the real world, we build our buildings as mostly a series of rectangles
glacial skiff
That is true
unreal oyster
which doesn't make for particularly interesting level design
the best maps work off the grid with weird rotations
hallow wraith
I feel like i limit myself because i don't want things too look off
glacial skiff
Once in a while you do get Doom Buildings (tm) though
unreal oyster
for example: ancient aliens MAP12, one of the best in the entire set imo
and, yeah, occasionally architects do go crazy with it heh
but yeah, you can see all the twists and turns the sectors make in that image
hallow wraith
Do i need to be more abstract?
glacial skiff
Imagine yourself standing in a room
unreal oyster
another example of a real world doom-style building lol
glacial skiff
Now imagine the shit you will have to do in that room in order to progress, i.e. monster layout, traps, etc.
umbral sail
@hallow wraith show us your maps, maybe theyre not as bad as you think they are
hallow wraith
Im working on the plans
umbral sail
@unreal oyster remake that picture as a doom map lmao
hallow wraith
I need to find my old map from 2 years ago
I haven't made a full map since my last map a year or 2 ago
umbral sail
with full detail
unreal oyster
you'd probably want to use vertical portals
hallow wraith
Ive been getting stuck
everytime i try to create a new map
It keeps coming out looking off and playing off
Like they don't feel like doom levels
glacial skiff
Doesn't always have to feel like a Doom level (map is "fortedit")
hallow wraith
I know what doom wads have to make them good I just don't know how to creatively make one without it being off
umbral sail
you could also try to recreate real things like modern buildings etc.
hallow wraith
I feel like my maps don't have enough variation, and good lookness to them
And they don't play to well
umbral sail
try to texture maps more differently?
glacial skiff
If you find any of your maps please tag me, will be in GZDB myself
glacial skiff
Look at this fucking insanity
umbral sail
you could also try to put pipes or fences into the walls
@glacial skiff that ladder looks like some work
glacial skiff
It actually wasn't any work really but it's something like 14 tags on that one highlighted sector
And then all the vertex terrain in the background
umbral sail
just seems annoying to make ^
glacial skiff
100%
hallow wraith
@glacial skiff What place holder textures are those?
hallow wraith
Ive been kinda stuck in a loop of planning and making small WIPs and deleting them because they aren't that good
glacial skiff
(They were originally supposed to represent locale but I thought mixing them in a scene made better looking screenshots)
hallow wraith
Im trying to learn how to visualize things better and more creative
I feel like im not visualizing it hard enough
glacial skiff
Try using these defaults and just going nuts
hallow wraith
I feel like im either having some lack of understanding of fundamental level design, or im not being creative enough
glacial skiff
Maybe build a room based on a themed image, like, google "castle throne room" if that's what you want to experiment with and build based on whatever images you see that look good
(I don't really know how to explain what I'm talking about)
hallow wraith
i understand
I just feel like im missing steps in the creative and level design processes and im not fully understanding them
Not fully understanding and remembering things is why I haven't gotten that far in learning C++
I do have Aspergers and ADD so maybe thats why
severe seal
@hallow wraith just saw this conversation... if you've got aspergers you probably literally process visual stuff and especially creative visual stuff in a way that is different from people who don't. Not better or worse, just differently. Many creative people just have ideas pop into their heads because they subconsciously think about design and when they sit down to create, the subconscious stuff pops to the surface. If you don't get that, that's OKAY, you can still learn but it'll just be more tedious to learn how to approximate the kind of creativity you're seeing elsewhere.
@hallow wraith AFAIK from reading stuff and from working with people on the autism spectrum, you may have an easier time starting with figuring out rules and structure, deconstructing in what many would consider a very non-creative way... but in doing that, you may be able to find patterns and notice things that other people never do, and that may allow you to create something really interesting.
hallow wraith
Interesting
severe seal
@hallow wraith Relevant to programming too - IMO the way to understanding something is to build a model of how it works in your head in a way that you can understand. C++ may not be the best place to start because in order to understand it to the degree that you probably want to, you have to understand a LOT about computer memory, pointers, etc. It may be wiser to start with a higher-level language so you can understand aspects of programming without having to understand how computers work. OR alternatively, start with learning about processors and memory so you understand at a more fundamental level, then when you start programming you'll be able to see the direct relationship between the language and how you're manipulating the computer's behavior.
hallow wraith
I have subconscious ideas ... i just don't listen to most of them because of how weird they are
severe seal
That's a huge problem
Your thought to yourself shouldn't be "this is too weird so I shouldn't do it," it should be "this is really weird, but how can I make it work?"
This is a creative thing you're doing for fun, don't beat yourself up over having weird ideas. Just make something that's fun for you, put it out in the world, get feedback, and do it again.
hallow wraith
I need to be more fun about this like i did when i first started map making
severe seal
Yes
If nobody's paying you to do something and you can do whatever you want, don't let it stop being fun
I've made that mistake before, it'll make you miserable
hallow wraith
Im not sure why im trying so hard to be perfect if this is just my hobby
Maybe i just started to get Jealous of other peoples levels
And created ridiculous standards
severe seal
Yeah don't do that
Do you know who Ira Glass is?
@hallow wraith here are some wise words from Ira Glass, the creator of the radio show This American Life, which is totally amazing and some of the best audio storytelling you'll ever hear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbC4gqZGPSY
unreal oyster
very good video but goddamn i hate the way the words jump all over the place on the screen -_-
what they're saying is very true though
hallow wraith
I feel like I should take a break to cool my mind from the stress and make August the start of my regular Doom mapping
unreal oyster
i look back on my first map now and i think it's awful, but without making that first map i would have never made a second, or a third, etc
(not that i'm a veteran or anything, i've only finished 6 maps so far and only 2 are released, one is to be released 😛)
severe seal
@hallow wraith Find some other creative thing to do
unreal oyster
but, tbh, i can definitely see a quality increase in my own work just because i kept going at it and listening to feedback others were giving me
listening to the feedback of the people who have been doing this longer than you is really important imo
unless you dislike their work, that is
severe seal
@unreal oyster speaking of which... have time to play through my map and give feedback? 😃
unreal oyster
yeah, i think so
severe seal
hallow wraith
@severe seal Im gonna play it
severe seal
I got some feedback on Doomworld forums but it was mostly like "yeah this is pretty good"
@hallow wraith go for it 😃
Only major problem is one of the decorations I thought wouldn't block was actually blocking in vanilla :/
unreal oyster
okay, just in the first shot, this shotgun is stuck in the wall 😛 http://i.imgur.com/wuc5Y6d.jpg
move it out from the wall a few units
severe seal
what are you playing it on?
unreal oyster
gzdoom HMP
severe seal
hmp?
unreal oyster
hurt me plenty
severe seal
ohhh
odd, I'm playing gzdoom and never saw that... maybe just different graphics settings
easy fix 😃
lavish hollow
@unreal oyster so besides maps, have you made any mods?
severe seal
shhhh he's playing my map! 😄
lavish hollow
Thinking of something to yell at you for
unreal oyster
skybox issue here, this looks kinda awkward
i like the idea of having the exit visible from the start
gives the player the sense of a clear goal
severe seal
It does! I'll have to play with that more to see if I can get the effect I wanted without breaking it... but I'm not sure if it's possible
unreal oyster
you can definitely fix it, just create another skybox sector in front of it and bring it down to hide as much of the texture as you want
severe seal
hmmm
hallow wraith
This level reminds me of those classic levels they had on the DZone CD
severe seal
I hope that's good 😃
unreal oyster
when doing large offset changes like this, i feel it's best to put a solid sector in between to mask the change
otherwise the change looks weird
severe seal
true
hallow wraith
i just got the rocket launcher
hallow wraith
I would but my voice sounds weird
hallow wraith
And i need a recorder
I wish Doom Dogsoft would work so i could redownload the level I uploaded long ago that i made
@severe seal "you may have an easier time starting with figuring out rules and structure, deconstructing in what many would consider a very non-creative way" What do you mean by this
severe seal
I mean be clinical about it
"how many units wide/across is this room? how many enemies are in it? what's the distribution? how much ammo is there? how much health is provided? how complex is the geometry?"
lavish hollow
"Is there a cyberdemon?" Is also a good question
severe seal
hallow wraith
I need to improve my memory before i can remember all those details
severe seal
Write them down
hallow wraith
Many people have suggested i should have a memory palace or something
Because my memories are not organized
unreal oyster
i mean i can stream a second playthrough and commentate if you want?
severe seal
@unreal oyster that would be really cool
@hallow wraith most people aren't Sherlock Holmes. In fact, nobody is 😄
hallow wraith
Finding the statistics of maps down to little details would be time consuming but it would help
severe seal
Just do it for your favorite maps or your favorite areas
Another thing to look at is contrast - height difference, room size difference, texture difference, lighting intensity difference
E2M4 would be a good one to look at
hallow wraith
Im gonna start with Cchest4.wad Map 21 Shaman's Device... because i like that level
lavish hollow
@severe seal "most people aren't Sherlock Holmes" you know he did drugs, right?
severe seal
@lavish hollow how is that relevant? we were talking about mind palaces
@lavish hollow Also he's a fictional character soo....
lavish hollow
Imo it just bothers me when people use Sherlock as an example of a smart person, when he wasn't smart naturally
severe seal
drugs don't make you smarter dude
there is not a single drug that makes people smarter
lavish hollow
When he did the drugs, he said it gave him a better detective ability
Aka he's smarter
severe seal
focus != intelligence
hallow wraith
A mind palace is visualizing everything you want to remember associated to objects into a imaginary space and walking through a route in it
severe seal
@hallow wraith right but is that a real thing that works?
lavish hollow
I can link you stuff about this drug thing if you want, lmao
hallow wraith
I want to try it
severe seal
I'm not sure how what a fictional character says about his experience doing drugs is in any way relevant to real life
It's not like they had adderall in the 1800s
lavish hollow
Wasn't Sherlock Holmes based on a real person?
severe seal
No
hallow wraith
Would writing the ratios and differances of sector heights and lights be a good thing to note
severe seal
Cocaine makes you think you're awesome, morphine prevents you from feeling pain
@hallow wraith Hey I'm just trying to give you ideas, experiment to see what works for you 😃
hallow wraith
I need to experiment more
unreal oyster
@severe seal https://www.twitch.tv/gutawer stream's up, i'll start when you're ready for me to
hallow wraith
Experimenting is kinda bipolar... it can either lead to Great new ideas or Failures
severe seal
@unreal oyster I'm on
@lavish hollow Holmes is based on a bunch of people (including another fictional character) but only in specific aspects like being able to deduce specifics from just a few details
unreal oyster
alright, i'll talk to you in twitch chat then
hallow wraith
I need to stop limiting myself
severe seal
@unreal oyster Thanks that was really helpful!
unreal oyster
no problem 😃
keep doing this, man, that was a very good map for someone just starting out
unreal oyster
right, yeah
severe seal
I worked on f2p social and mobile games, so all systems design and no mapping 😦
hallow wraith
@unreal oyster If I make a map hopefully this year will you test it
Why do the proportions of room look differant in gameplay than in the 3D mode of GZDoombuilder
severe seal
@hallow wraith They shouldn't. Could be you're at the wrong z-height
I mean, your viewpoint is
severe seal
Also, @hallow wraith , "If I make a map hopefully this year" - If you're trying to make a masterpiece you're gonna have a bad time. Make a map in a week. Just give yourself that deadline, and no matter how much you think it sucks, just call it done enough and get some feedback
Room size is hard
It takes practice
It took me practice
I kept making rooms too small though 😃
hallow wraith
July 30th - August 5th Map01
hallow wraith
I have have a few drawings for maps
severe seal
Try to draw a complete map before you start working on it
hallow wraith
Ok
severe seal
Mine ended up very different in the details but the general structure worked.
hallow wraith
How much should i vary the floor heights, textures, and lighting?
severe seal
Depends on your goal
To separate areas, a lot. To add visual variation for a room, you shouldn't be doing that yet 😃
Here, for fun
Concept to completion 😃
hallow wraith
my concepts are not that detailed
severe seal
Well, it's pretty complicated for a first map
@hallow wraith what are your concepts like?
hallow wraith
Im thinking of way to explain it
hallow wraith
hmm ill have to figure out how to take a photo of it