#πŸ’€ Cortex Engine

1 messages Β· Page 12 of 1

ionic badger
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paid version has ai stuff and he states "forever" in the video

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but obviously we all know people can pivot

green breach
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Canva has a decent enough reputation

ionic badger
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old version worked through wine, new version may have increased linux community energy due to the free forever setup

green breach
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Worth trying

ionic badger
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yeah the only difference between free and paid and is a lack of AI lol

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ah neat, if you've paid for affinity they'll give you a massive collection of free fonts as a thank you

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well, maybe daz hit it x)

grizzled laurel
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We should make cool design and/or art tools in Haxe :D

green breach
restive stump
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it's quite hard because opengl awfulness but it's almost done, then I'm gonna do a vulkan and metal backend

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but later after battle test api design and opengl backend

grizzled laurel
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Niceee

clear dome
void condor
void condor
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too bad, I sometimes get my hopes high when I discover old floppy disks, imagine what could have been on there πŸ˜„

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neat smelt
void condor
neat smelt
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There are many floppy disks at my old family home, but I guess they have shared the same fate by now...

void condor
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when you review old code and the comment goes ...

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pure oriole
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fast ❌
fuck βœ… if i got that right

void condor
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Im looking at the original ship assets from Homeworld

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a single ship, 9 different textures

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feels soo wrong today πŸ˜„

ionic badger
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how is it compared to these days?

void condor
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You would merge all the textures into a single 512x256 atlas

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or have a 2048x2048 for the whole fleet

void condor
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ok, I reworked the resource pipeline a little, now it detects missing resources and generates the metafiles and converts them as they are required. that makes it sooo much easier to throw all kinds gltfs as prefabs into the engine

void condor
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@green breach not sure what happened, but I got your castle fork working

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electron & nodejs decided to stop being a bitch

green breach
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πŸŽ‰

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does it actually work outside of running? curious

void condor
void condor
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Has anyone ever used oimo on native?

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I have it working in cortex. But it only runs stable without crashes in cppia. native builds explode with null references, leading me to believe there is something funky going on when it comes to the macros, casting and dynamic

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void condor
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gaaah, why does everybody try to be smart with macros.. the contact handling is completely busted in native builds

grizzled laurel
void condor
grizzled laurel
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latest haxe and hxcpp version at that time

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I didn't have any crashes but I recall restitution behaving very odd

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It didn't matter what I set it to but every object was behaving like a basketball whenever it collided

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I moved to physx shortly after

void condor
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hmmm

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and also matches with your description

grizzled laurel
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It's a shame honestly, oimo is pretty cool and what I have gotten to work worked really well...

void condor
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I think it's an issue with the pooling

grizzled laurel
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possibly?

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I also had the issue where everything was very slippery

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friction was kinda messed up too (just like the car)

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What makes you think it is pooling?

void condor
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contacts are pooled and I believe the pool is not maintained correctly. Valid contacts get released when they shouldnt

grizzled laurel
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Hmmm, interesting...

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That could cause such issues for sure...

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But that doesn't explain the issues regarding restitution... i think?

void condor
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I think it could explain it. a contact holds both shapes with your material settings. if you have a broken contact you get refrences to other shapes that were used original contact before it was given back to the pool

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at least that is my hunch, I need to understand the lifecycle of the contacts

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things seem to work if there is not a lot going on

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ohhh

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contacts are linked together with prev / next, making it an implicit linked list

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I bet this list is not correctly maintained and you end up with wrong prev/next

grizzled laurel
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that seems quite sensetive to issues

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one contact messes up and everything messes up lol

void condor
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wtf

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it crashes in the yellow line, after ending up there even though it shouldnt bc of the isNotNull check

grizzled laurel
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tf

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what happens if you step thru the IsNotNull check

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what is the value of the contact there?

void condor
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ignore it for the moment

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why would someone do such a loop here

grizzled laurel
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wtf is while(false) supposed to do

void condor
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nothing

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it runs once

grizzled laurel
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I think saharan made sentient code

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XD

void condor
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couple this with macros for non-compiler inlining

grizzled laurel
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Isn't oimo really old though?

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iirc the original code base was in actionscript

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then ported to haxe 3..?

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Perhaps this used to do something in the past

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but it just doesn't work anymore

void condor
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nah, he uses this as an early-out pattern, essentially falling back to gotos in the generated code

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shitty performance hack

grizzled laurel
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lol

void condor
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ok, we are getting closer. occasionally it completely butchers the stack

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this would indicate that it does a bad jump/goto. like imagine if there was custom inlining going on and you have a break generating a goto name twice accidently

void condor
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hmm, ok im pretty much convinced that this linked list stuff generates code that completely fucks hxcpp

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but it only surfaces once it hits certain thresholds

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oh well there is still the chance im debugging past the actual issue, there is still the issue of hxcpp silently failing an implicit cast

void condor
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omg!

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Turns out I was looking at the wrong place!

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the oimo debug drawer triggered a bgfx encoder for drawing that i didnt handle correctly that caused some wrong pointers that corrupted the stack

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So Im to blame, this is how I love it! More of that πŸ˜„

grizzled laurel
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How did you find that you were the one who corrupted the stack?

void condor
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Occam's razor

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I started disabling things step by step

void condor
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wahh, neddle in a haystack

ionic badger
void condor
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should be current scope

ionic badger
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wdym?

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just setting the scope overrides the last scope?

void condor
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you just name the current scope with that zone name

ionic badger
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there's no default scope to fall back to?

void condor
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e.g. if you write it at the beginning of a function the zone will end when the function is left / popped from the stack

ionic badger
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ahhh, that's the key, its scoped to the function its in

void condor
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or the brackets

ionic badger
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interesting, does it work in the following case?

{
  //portioned out code here
}
//do stuff
{
  //another portion of code
}
void condor
# 
TracyProfiler.zoneScoped('includes all below');
{
  TracyProfiler.zoneScoped('first');
}
// nothing to do here
{
  TracyProfiler.zoneScoped('second');
}
ionic badger
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dang that's cool

void condor
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test it, barely remember

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πŸ˜„

ionic badger
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want to see how this will be presented in tracy :D

void condor
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zones will look like function calls

ionic badger
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was reading through the manual to see because i'm having a hard time figuring out this validation loop

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gonna also play with messages and see if i can get caller information and find a source to the chain

void condor
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messages are cool

void condor
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Ok, we are good and stable ❀️ (although obs KILLS my framerate). For a single threaded physics engine oimo seems good

green breach
void condor
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holy shit, now that I have the boilerplate done, getting the demos to work is just copy and paste...

molten sleet
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cortex!!!

void condor
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lol, I defo need to rework the mesh rendering of the debug visuals. 7k drawcalls for some ragdolls is a bit much πŸ˜„

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void condor
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well fuck, there is that

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molten sleet
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7000?!?!

void condor
# molten sleet 7000?!?!

the oimo's debugdrawer wants to render triangle by triangle. Gonna change it so it draws complete meshes in a single call. should get the count down to like 50

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overall the cool part is that oimo is wrapped as a lib called cortex-oimo, so shit is nicely encapsulated

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projects can link it and get the ecs stuff. found a nice pattern for libs to extend the pool of components and systems

void condor
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one thing I didnt realize about hmecs till last night: you can nest SystemLists, essentially building a tree of systems

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this is simplified my apps a lot

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rofl, yeah I need to rewrite the debugDraw πŸ˜„

image.png
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that's the heavy load frame that loads the ragdolls

clear dome
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I recall you were looking at havok jolt for physics, changed mind?

molten sleet
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i thought cortex already had a physics engine

void condor
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i have physx and a wip jolt. but i need something smaller first to prototype a few things

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oimo is low effort and doesnt get in the way, while the others are full of extern distractions 😜

grizzled laurel
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Yeaaaaa

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What do you think you'll stick with in the end

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Probably jolt, no?

void condor
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will dependent on the project. jolt for complex stuff, oimo for others

clear dome
grizzled laurel
void condor
grizzled laurel
void condor
#

Much better πŸ˜„

image.png
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down to 670 drawcalls with a bit more geometry πŸ™‚

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grizzled laurel
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How has your oimo experience been so far? (if we ignore the issues from before) πŸ˜„

void condor
void condor
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stretches

void condor
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learning soo much good shit

void condor
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yay, all demos ported to cortex

void condor
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[showcase] Finally getting around to work more on the 3D side of cortex. Cooking several prototypes that require basic collision detection and physics so I added a quick Oimo extension and ported over all its demos ❀️

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@ionic badger showcase broken?

molten sleet
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bro

hollow spindle
green breach
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how do you know your future non existent child is male

void condor
void condor
# molten sleet

I hope you guys have your local LLM cluster up and running πŸ˜›

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ionic badger
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ahhh something crashed hbot

void condor
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did it manually for now

ionic badger
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last thing in the log was your video

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but the logging i have isn't very comprehensive so it could be something after it

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video uploaded and everything, just randnomly died after lol

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void condor
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hmmm

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ok, then I have the secret hbot killswitch now

ionic badger
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dunno, might have been something else

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man, its a nice demo

ionic badger
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yo daz have you given much thought to your cppia/hxcpp switching workflow

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I think i have quite a nice setup here, host for cppia main, hxcpp for the other and then have them share the -cp project in the common.hxml file

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same project code works on both with no changes required (src/client) is the cppia script main which calls Start.hx

void condor
ionic badger
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nice!

void condor
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adding a target like emscipten/android is just another hxml

hollow spindle
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Just picturing a future that otherwie wouldn't happen

pure oriole
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new timeline unlocked... who knows

green breach
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@void condor silly idea... you use obsidian right? instead of rewriting the castledb editor, how silly would it be to use obsidian bases with maybe a custom extension?

void condor
void condor
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that is actually a super interesting idea

molten sleet
# 
dazKind: +1 side project```
void condor
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but I think you could wrap it

molten sleet
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I CAST

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+1 side project

void condor
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I gotta deal with this first

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molten sleet
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oh damn-

void condor
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fuck it, added a new alias to my shell: alias zerofuckspush='git add . && git commit -m "$(curl -s https://whatthecommit.com/index.txt)" && git push --force'

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the curl doesnt work

ionic badger
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lol is that a site that generates an ai explanation for a commit

void condor
void condor
molten sleet
neat smelt
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That's great, I like that alias

unkempt gazelle
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cortex-uii is finished?!?!

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that the last thing i saw about this project

void condor
unkempt gazelle
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yaaaaaaaaaaay

ionic badger
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do you get any of the weird inheritance issues that i'm getting in #tools? what haxe version are you running?

void condor
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Im using 4.3.6 atm. That being said, I dont really depend on inheritance that much or at all

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I compile most of the app in cppia, only important/perf critical parts of the engine are in the host

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mainly due to how some macros completely shit the bed if you mix usage host vs. script

ionic badger
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ahhhh, here's there's 0 macros and just a tiny bit of inheritance

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most of the app is on the host.... huh! I will try moving some stuff to the client!

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I am using nightly haxe

hollow spindle
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If I were to wanna make my own hscript I'd macro that bitch! I'd make it so you don't have to use any dynamic anymore...at the cost of compiled code size depending how how many classes you actually have in your game

unkempt gazelle
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like, genuinely, i have a lot of questions

hollow spindle
unkempt gazelle
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wdym with you dont have to use dynamic anymore

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how

hollow spindle
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I'd make a dynamic with just macros

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Which makes it so you can just box any type within just a selection of variables (like I for with my old OneOfAny implementation with try.haxe.org)

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But idfk how

void condor
void condor
grizzled laurel
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Can't wait for that to be in the #814'th issue of the Haxe Roundup πŸ˜„

void condor
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People really suck when it comes to making sure macros are performant

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oimo's macros are littered with log calls that do nothing but still assemble the string to be printed. disabling all improved the performance of the macro by 500ms

void condor
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Since u guys dont like binary releases, here is the emscripten build of the oimo demo, run a simple webserver in the folder and load it in your browser

void condor
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gah, I dont like my input-handling. I have to rework it

grizzled laurel
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what is currently wrong with it?

unkempt gazelle
clear dome
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@grizzled laurel @void condor What's your experience with cpp.Float32? I'll do more tests, but I'm wondering how much care we need to take if I want to do some computation that stick to using cpp.Float32 (aka float in the final C++), and prevent haxe to spit out casts to double everywhere. Just curious

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Like, if you have an inline method doing (a + b) * a taking a:Float, b:Float as arguments and returning Float, if I give it cpp.Float32 values as a and b, will the inlining skip the cast and just do the operation on actual float/cpp.Float32 values, or will that be casted to double?

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(I'll test the c++ output of those anyway, but maybe you know already)

ionic badger
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might be better from a haxe usage pov to use Single instead

grizzled laurel
clear dome
void condor
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makes interfacing with my extern libs easy since I can hand/copy over junks of float data

clear dome
# void condor In practice I ignore it most of the time. All my math classes use a typedef to w...

Yeah I don’t really care on non critical parts of the code like gameplay stuff, there I actually prefer to stick to double as accuracy is more important than efficiency (and that’s just totally fine with current cpus), but now I’m writing a performance sensitive processing so I want to avoid any unnecessary cast to/from double that would implicitly sneak into haxe/cpp output when working with Float32. I guess I’ll have to try and see for myself anyway

void condor
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I wouldnt expect any magic when mixing Float & cpp.Float32. In your sample there will be casting even with the inline

clear dome
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First thing to check is Float32Array access type returning… Float and not Float32 πŸ™ƒ

clear dome
#

I did a small test with this code:

    static function main() {
        var a:Float32 = Date.now().getTime();
        var test1:Float32 = a + 2.1;
        trace('TEST1: '+test1);
    }
#

C++ output is this:

# 
                HX_STACKFRAME(&_hx_pos_e47a9afac0942eb9_16_main)
HXLINE(  18)        float test1 = ( (float)((( (float)(::Date_obj::now()->getTime()) ) + ((Float)2.1))) );
HXLINE(  19)         ::Dynamic _hx_tmp = ::haxe::Log_obj::trace;
HXDLIN(  19)        ::String _hx_tmp1 = (HX_("TEST1: ",05,50,98,3d) + ::Std_obj::string(test1));
HXDLIN(  19)        _hx_tmp(_hx_tmp1,::hx::SourceInfo(HX_("src/Main.hx",9a,7a,30,a1),19,HX_("Main",59,64,2f,33),HX_("main",39,38,56,48)));
#

We can see 2.1 is casted to Float (thus double)

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However, I can do that:

# 
    #if !macro

    static function main() {
        var a:Float32 = Date.now().getTime();
        var test1:Float32 = a + f32(2.1);
        trace('TEST1: '+test1);
    }

    #end

    macro static function f32(expr:Expr):Expr {
        if (Context.defined('cpp')) {
            return Context.parse("untyped __cpp__('" + new Printer().printExpr(expr) + "f')", Context.currentPos());
        }
        else {
            return expr;
        }
    }
# 
                HX_STACKFRAME(&_hx_pos_e47a9afac0942eb9_16_main)
HXLINE(  17)        float a = ( (float)(::Date_obj::now()->getTime()) );
HXLINE(  18)        float test1 = ( (float)((a + 2.1f)) );
HXLINE(  19)         ::Dynamic _hx_tmp = ::haxe::Log_obj::trace;
HXDLIN(  19)        ::String _hx_tmp1 = (HX_("TEST1: ",05,50,98,3d) + ::Std_obj::string(test1));
HXDLIN(  19)        _hx_tmp(_hx_tmp1,::hx::SourceInfo(HX_("src/Main.hx",9a,7a,30,a1),19,HX_("Main",59,64,2f,33),HX_("main",39,38,56,48)));
#

So, that requires some explicitness, but it's possible to stick to actual float/Float32 with some macros I guess

molten sleet
#

is half of hxcpp just fighting the generator to get good code

clear dome
#

Not really, its output is just fine in most of the cases. At least there are ways to have more control on the output like this macro trick

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If I were only targeting c++, I'd write those performance sensitive parts of the code directly in C++. But I want the same code to work on all Ceramic targets, while still choosing the best type (float32) when available, like in c++

shut oracle
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I guess haxe should support 2.1f32 for Single

molten sleet
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replace Single and Floatwith f32 and f64 tro

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var a: f32 = 4.3;

ionic badger
#

certainly is clear

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but defo not haxe standard notation πŸ˜„

green breach
ionic badger
#

i don't get this xkcd

green breach
# ionic badger i don't get this xkcd

there is a phenomonon in evolution that a lot of things evolve to resemble crabs. the rust programming language's mascot is a crab. f32/f64 is rust syntax

ionic badger
#

i have never observed such a phenomena

green breach
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guessing you aren't a crab then

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinisation

Carcinisation

Carcinisation (American English: carcinization) is a form of convergent evolution in which non-crab crustaceans evolve a crab-like body plan. The term was introduced into evolutionary biology by Lancelot Alexander Borradaile, who described it in 1916 as "the many attempts of Nature to evolve a crab".

clear dome
clear dome
molten sleet
green breach
#

ok but what language came first

molten sleet
#

Therefore zig

green breach
#

fair play

void condor
clear dome
#

Hey @void condor , did you already use HXCPP with C++20 std?

void condor
clear dome
#

Looks like not a lot of changes, thanks!

void condor
#

Here is a fun observation i noticed recently in my brain: I usually review a lot of projects and PRs and in the past I would laud or pay kudos to effort & quality for the work. Now that I know that most people just throw AI at the problem I noticed I stopped with the kudos bc most of it is window dressing (nice looks) and little trustable effort and I see no growth in the person other than higher sprint KPIs.. which is ironically precisely what every dev told me they dont want to get reduced to... im like wtf

crystal grove
#

I feel like teachers had the same feeling when like Wikipedia became popular and everyone just copy pasted their essays

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Different context but yeah

void condor
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yeah, skill-based growth is suffering. If you want people to build skill to overcome bigger and bigger challenges then you are truely fucked now

grizzled laurel
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I feel like the more desperate someone is, the likely they are to use AI.

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Look at developers: Super high demands for little pay = can't be bothered -> AI

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With med students you have A LOT of material, so I feel like (and yes, this is an assumption) they are also very likely to use AI...

void condor
#

I foresee fun stuff like the release of new models having a negative impact in sprint outputs and the obligatory "new LLM release had us rework our pipeline and thus we werent able to ship in time"

grizzled laurel
void condor
#

it's not about desperation I think. It's about people falling into a trap and drawing the wrong conclusions

grizzled laurel
#

I'm sure there are some very interesting statistics to be found there.

molten sleet
#

depends on the way its used

if you rely entirely on AI then yes its bad
if you use it as a TOOL to ASSIST you, not do it for you, it could be good

ionic badger
#

it's tough, giving kudos for suboptimal effort is a bit of a trap

grizzled laurel
ionic badger
#

I'm extremely careful with even mentioning what I use AI on, because I don't want positive reinforcement on that aspect of things, i'll pick and choose that, but I want most positive feedback I get to be placed on areas where I applied personal/real effort

grizzled laurel
#

In reality though, exactly the gathering of information or the time wasted on falling into pitfalls is what helps someone get to new heights of knowledge about a certain topic.

#

It is kindof like what daz said a while ago in my thread iirc?

molten sleet
#

semi-unrelated - but seeing what jeremyfa's been doing with LLMs has kinda inspired me into learning more about local hosting LLMs

ionic badger
#

For the most part, dummy tasks are cool like documentation, but, realistically you do want to be careful

void condor
#

I think I will have to resort to looking for different things in people. in the past people HAD TO grind to get good results and you could leverage that to fortify good skill-building by making the grind worth it and part of the process of growth. Now the grind becomes optional and most people side-step it.

ionic badger
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I saw a video suggestion when i closed youtube the other day "vibe coding until I make 1 million usd"

grizzled laurel
#

Personally I draw the line to only using LLMs for transforming data I already own, rather then creating new information based on what it knows.

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examples are: documentation (code -> descriptions) or diagrams (code -> diagrams)

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but never description -> code or diagrams -> code

grizzled laurel
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It is quite unfortunate really.

void condor
ionic badger
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lol

molten sleet
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im a bit guilty of that, but am trying to use AI less

molten sleet
grizzled laurel
#

that is a scary future

ionic badger
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well, videos have basically replaced reading

void condor
ionic badger
#

so everything in the pursuit of expedience

grizzled laurel
#

those AI companies also piss me off, did you see the RAM pricing issues?

ionic badger
grizzled laurel
#

Happenes right before I was about to plan a new PC build lol

molten sleet
#

and environmental issues from massive server farms..

ionic badger
grizzled laurel
#

and another one

image.png
ionic badger
#

lmao

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what kind of ram is that? ddr5?

grizzled laurel
#

Yeah...

#

here another one, from a different brand

image.png
#

other 2 were corsair, this one is kingston

molten sleet
#

i hope the AI bubble pops soon so prices can be reasonable again

void condor
#

Currently my only logical conclusion is:

  • hire people that were exceptional before AI hit and who consider the grind not a grind but part of the process
  • come up with better growth tracking and get rid off people that show no growth
  • force any junior into the AI trap and then pull the plug on the AI to use the burn to create awareness
grizzled laurel
ionic badger
ionic badger
grizzled laurel
#

Or you can hold a deep philosophical discussion with a person about topics like: AI, growth, "the grind", etc

grizzled laurel
molten sleet
#

something something asking an interviewee to close their eyes and answer a question

grizzled laurel
#

lol

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they've also been hit

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so dumb...

ionic badger
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my ram has tripled in value? πŸ˜‚

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madness

void condor
grizzled laurel
ionic badger
grizzled laurel
#

Man if I when I get a job I'd love to have a higher-up like you

#

I like your way of handling these things lol

ionic badger
#

gonna be a lot of industry shuffling about over the years gonna take some time to balance out

void condor
#

If there is nothing to be lost, there is nothing to be gained

ionic badger
#

But you see, the current marketplace attitude kind of rewards the wrong things

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at the core of it, the idea should simply be "value wins"

#

i've been thinking about this stuff for a little while, and haven't gotten to the root of my thoughts on it yet though

void condor
#

problem is that "value" is a relative/subjective construct

molten sleet
ionic badger
#

whereas i think the overarching marketplace has misguided values

#

subjective for sure, but haven't worked out the crutch of the thing yet

void condor
#

The other day I got pulled into a nice strategy discussion with sentences like "we gotta stop growing, we have to scale now"

ionic badger
#

like in my job, theft is seen as "meh" as in, literally a kind of pointless thing to apply much attention to, but, this is wrong on so many levels

void condor
#

then I asked how we define "scale" exactly and then whole thing imploded

ionic badger
#

"we'll just raise prices across the board to cover the loss"

#

So from what I can tell, the general practice of things is something like "screw the people who do the most, and give to the people who do the least"

#

bit off topic there

void condor
grizzled laurel
void condor
#

You detect a thief, you pepper that sucker out of the shop

ionic badger
#

but that's horrible short sighted nonsense

void condor
#

totally

ionic badger
#

which heavily affects the community

#

but it isn't a priority

#

value compass is waaaay off

void condor
#

it's too centralized

ionic badger
#

AI is not going to help with that

#

and the thing is, all the people who have this attitude is probably going to get hit heavily by daz's 3rd option in his list above, when the companies have figured out how to moot you out of a job because AI is sufficiently trained

ionic badger
#

At least i hope so, companies should end up stagnating as they completely forget their roots

grizzled laurel
# ionic badger lmao, we got a good atmosphere in our store, from a lower level employee and col...

I mean I also kinda get it, in the companies perspective the bad publicity from an employee getting injured while chasing away a thief is worse than the losses suffered by even hundreds of thieves... Yes this absolutely sets a bad precedent but at the same time if I was an employee I'd also not be willing to risk my future for a simple petty thief. While most are harmless the chances of you finding that 1% is quite likely considering the number of incidents regarding shoplifting globally.

void condor
#

smaller elitist units will win and survive. people dont build for resilience anymore

grizzled laurel
#

I am in the unfortunate spot to have witnessed what one insignificant action can do to someone (specifically one family member) long-term.

grizzled laurel
ionic badger
#

people can take it too far and get injured for sure

void condor
#

that's why you need paintball guns

ionic badger
#

lol, our internal motto is recover the items and let them go

#

so priority is on the items, not on the person, limit physical contact

void condor
ionic badger
#

but if you don't fight back even a little, these people take over

ionic badger
#

and people are too sensitive these days, a simple complaint can be a problem

void condor
#

I know, Im just imagining us running a shop together

ionic badger
#

generally though, most do feel pain when you intervene, they've lost and you intervene enough and they do reduce the frequency

#

losing is a kind of pain

void condor
#

You ever watched Robocop, it had such nice satirical commercials. Like electric-chairing the car-thief caught in the act. You know, we finally have the juice in those EVs

ionic badger
#

security work is not taken very seriously at the retail level, so most people are just door attendants with a high vis

ionic badger
void condor
#

at least they need to look the part

#

OR you hire the biggest thief to catch & deter the others

ionic badger
#

costs more money and company doesn't value that

void condor
#

im sad

ionic badger
#

the main guards we got at our store are pretty good

#

but if they go on annual leave, they'll send agency people who are just nonsense

#

i do wonder often where AI is gonna take over in my job

#

There's the staffless amazon retail stores in london

void condor
#

lemme tell you, this depresses me so much about this. lemme give you the answer: it wont, but they will learn the hard way

ionic badger
ionic badger
void condor
#

those staffless stores used 30+ pakistani remote operators monitoring every customer tracking their purchases

#

was a huge scandal

ionic badger
#

well yeah, that's the thing. If that's the end goal, that's a massive loss in my eyes

void condor
#

thats why amazon never rolled them out

ionic badger
#

a supermarket at its roots is heavily community based

void condor
#

precisely

ionic badger
#

a humanless store is basically a wasteland

void condor
#

this is the reason shopping-malls exploded and killed the mainstreet

#

the community got centralized in an easy accessible spot

#

then brands/franchises took over and slowly made it a shitty place to be and ecommerce removed the shittyness for customers in the next step

ionic badger
#

yep, money trumps organic growth

void condor
#

now the enshittification is happening to ecommerce

#

and software as a whole

#

going back to locally producing businesses trying to build a community

ionic badger
#

gotta get some self made income πŸ˜„

void condor
#

dude, I cant wait to get out of this wheel

ionic badger
#

its tough

#

so many things i see that in my view aren't good

#

or things that i consider high priority are low priority because it hinders "customer throughput"

void condor
#

yeah. it's getting us back to the start of the convo: there is no longer an understanding on how shit works on the floor-level past a certain level in the hierarchy

ionic badger
#

yep, that's exactly it

void condor
#

every level has a different view / perspective on the numbers & effects

ionic badger
#

we have to obey the hierarchy but we're getting instructions from people who don't deal at the front

#

so the only thing that matters are the stats

void condor
#

sad but true

ionic badger
#

for the most part, we're in the top 5 out around ~500 stores of our company

#

when the big boots come by and wave their instructions we go back to operating our way when they go

#

I just don't like that song and dance

void condor
#

lol

ionic badger
#

it makes it feel elementary

void condor
#

It wastes so much energy just surviving in that setup

ionic badger
#

yep

#

and also people like pleasing the hierarchy so it adds more complications

void condor
#

if you really wanna get inspired (or depressed, for that matter) you should watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td_PGkfIdIQ . Gabe elaborates how Valve was specifically designed to combat all of this

YouTube
blogphilofilms
Gabe Newell: On Productivity, Economics, Political Institutions, an...

Gabe Newell, head of Valve Software, gives a talk on productivity, economics, political institutions, and the future of corporations on January 30, 2013 at the Lyndon B Johnson School of Public Affairs at The University of Texas at Austin

β–Ά Play video
ionic badger
clear dome
ionic badger
#

then we're on rations for a few weeks πŸ˜‚

void condor
void condor
molten sleet
#

i had to set up an MCP server for web searches (once again used an AI to help me set it up, because AI-ception)

#

but it seems to be working

clear dome
clear dome
ionic badger
#

most beneficial output from a productivity standpoint I find is by solving problems for my staff, not the other way round

clear dome
#

I think you are pretty much on point @void condor that we can’t use the same criteria to know if somebody is actually skilled or not. I’m still thinking it’s more a shift of where we put our efforts on. If things that were hard become easy because of llms, then we can tackle new hard problems that might have been unreachable before

#

(That being said, I’m very happy to have done a lot of grind)

void condor
# clear dome I think you are pretty much on point <@270689574240518144> that we can’t use the...

I consider this very problematic. it's really a fallacy, it's not a shift of real effort. Say you use AI to generate some code about stuff you have no idea about. It solves your problem but you didnt internalize the solution, you didnt generate any insight or grew in your engineering ability. Instead you introduced an external dependency that hopefully continues to stay "correct". If you continue like that you essentially estrange yourself more and more for your product and if you remove the LLM at any point, you have unmaintainable software... πŸ™

clear dome
clear dome
void condor
#

I know that this applies not only to LLm generated code but also simple libraries where you have to trust the author but i find it soo much more dangerous with LLMs, since there is no longer a human "paper trail"

clear dome
#

I’m still wondering if llms will get to a point where you really won’t have to know how to write program like we did before llms. Could it become as good as compilers are able to optimize things so that we don’t really need to know assembly today?

ionic badger
#

I keep going back and forth on it myself

#

the examples i keep comparing it to is woodworking. Table saw vs a handsaw

grizzled laurel
ionic badger
#

it is true that if you just default to the tablesaw, your handsaw skills are never going to improve past a certain point

#

and the person working on the project is now capable of potentially tackling bigger jobs

#

but something is definitely lost there

void condor
#

I think it's hard to compare LLMs with a compiler. Esp when you think about reliability. A compiler's determinism is defined by its logic & ruleset. a LLM's determinism is defined by random neurons firing each run.

clear dome
clear dome
#

But the analogy has its limits for sure, don’t take me too seriously on that

crystal grove
void condor
#

in the end abstractions were created to increase productivity across the whole stack, some good, some bad. With LLMs we have a general purpose abstraction layer that essentially fools people into a very weird place

clear dome
#

I’m just wondering if at some point llms will be so good that it would really be useless to know how to program as we know. Like, 4 years ago I would not believe someone telling an AI can do what it does today, so who knows. But maybe we are also stagnating already and we d better keep learning the craft πŸ˜„

void condor
#

best example I know from practice is driving a modern car vs. driving a 50 year old one. all the software tech in the modern one has completely changed how you operate it and what it costs in terms of fixing errors/replacements.

#

a modern car gets you to your destination very reliably and you can afford to not worry about road or traffic conditions that much

#

the moment you drive that old car you suddenly feel what driving actually means. It's fucking crazy to listen to your engines rev-curve in order to optimally shift up that hill

#

in terms of fixing & replacing stuff, you can do anything with a crowbar and some women stocking

#

your new car, well €5k for that sensor box please

#

now taking that on the LLM level would be like the new car becomes a flying saucer. You enter and scream at it to get you where you need to be, and you dont have an idea how it even physically works. yet you think you are in total control, even further you consider yourself quite the car builder πŸ˜„

#

and most of the time you ALMOST end up in the spot you wanted to go. You start to become an expert in water-/seabodies

void condor
#

for like 10-15 years already, I think

#

Best way to measure this is to look at Wayland, it's a pretty good signal to judge things by

clear dome
void condor
#

we dont hand a candle vs. a good coder in his/her prime in the late 90s

#

that realization is REALLY depressing

#

we are just retreading the same old paths carved by a lot better devs before us. all we do is trying to layer new shit on top of simple essential stuff

#

it's infuriating to me. but I try to stay cool

clear dome
#

Take it easy

void condor
#

oh I do, im in a good place, I just hope there will be more time in which I can leverage that position

clear dome
#

I’m still glad to be able to write not too shitty programs and still have time to make music, some drawings and plenty of other non-programming stuff. It’s not all bad

molten sleet
#

their > his/her

void condor
#

btw, when I said "we are just retreading the same old paths carved by a lot better devs before us..." that is me speaking about software development as a whole, not necessarily about our little haxe corner here

void condor
clear dome
#

Yeah I get it, it’s really a niche all the way here

molten sleet
clear dome
#

I like the idea that we can even have those discussions

#

And also sometime just discuss about a very technical and specific problem to solve

void condor
molten sleet
clear dome
ionic badger
#

I'm not sure i found it very depressing though

#

it was mostly very interesting

void condor
#

nice πŸ˜„

ionic badger
#

management being a skill vs a career path was a nice thing to ponder by itself

#

i also liked his point about enabling the community to do what they want

#

its actually a lot of where haxebot features come from, the end goal was/is to expose moderation tools to everyones "space" so people can just manage it themselves rather than having it gatekept by the discords "team"

#

you can have your own space in the place and have your own atmosphere, but, the main channels bridge them

#

it was a very interesting talk, i almost defo will have to watch it again at some point

#

brought up lots of interesting things to think about

ionic badger
#

its a dream/illusion

#

by making the statement of "i'm not being included" you're automatically self excluding yourself

void condor
#

The "No QA department" hits the hardest πŸ˜„

ionic badger
#

You know Daz, this was a big reason why i wanted cppia

void condor
#

You should defo read the new employee manual, it has great infos

ionic badger
#

i test my shit as a work on it

#

it makes NO SENSE to test on a platform i'm not releasing to!!!

#

Yes in theory I can say that the behaviour on js vs cpp is going to be roughly the same

#

but, in practice they are actually different, and if i'm being honest I have to pay attention to that

void condor
#

yeah, you should always dev as close to your target as possible

ionic badger
#

it didn't seem right, every time i switched to cpp and had a bug or something it would be like a massive chunk out of my opinion on the reliability of the project

#

valve seems cool

#

do you know more about the flat hierarchy structure? i'm sure I could google it or whatever, just curious

void condor
#

Preface: A fearless adventure
in knowing what to do
when no one’s there
telling you what to do

ionic badger
#

oh, another pdf that reminds me there's no decent way to read pdfs on phone

#

maybe i'll make that at some point, it seems like its come up a couple times now

void condor
#

it will give you a lot more insights on how they operate, from day to day to hiring and other stuff

ionic badger
#

The second part of the talk got suggested and another interesting point was how he defines what a game is

#

games are productivity platforms for maximising productivity of gamers

#

something like that

void condor
#

couldnt watch it. Too much audience noise and the urge to travel back in time and fix that fucking microphone orientation

ionic badger
#

took me a while to adjust to him constantly hitting the desk πŸ˜„

ionic badger
#

in the 2nd version of the same talk, from this timestamp some stuff that weren't so clear in the first version makes more sense here

neat smelt
ionic badger
#

you know i was thinking about it a bit more and a strong incentive as to why AI is getting sucked up is because most people have jobs they don't actually care about/want

#

so they can utilise AI to speed up their shitty job and use that attention elsewhere, which seems very plausible now work from home is a thing

#

asked a friend how AI helps him at work, he gets AI to read a 300 page bloomberg report and summerise it and can get what he needs within 5 mins

clear dome
#

This works until your employer notice it and just want you to deliver more within the same timeframe

grizzled laurel
#

Interesting...

ionic badger
#

well then you just artifically time cap your work which is what i see everyone do already

clear dome
#

I think that's a transitional period. Those tasks will inevitably get cheaper and make it harder to justify those workers salary at the first place

void condor
#

I also reached the point where I use AI as a tool to cut me a path through the noise. e.g. I use it to mentally unblock me when I reached an impass. I can also use it as a sparing partner and have it explore options

#

it's awesome for that explorative work

#

downside it is completely biased by its context

#

you can easily skew it down into seemingly super weird places

#

so having learnt that Im now even more careful towards anything and anyone that uses AI in non explorative ways

#

my thesis is that mostly insecure people will tend to use AI in that way and gain the most of it since they will retain a view on what matters and still have critical thought. anybody else will just get deteriorated long term by its use

ionic badger
#

You know, this is happening in general though

#

In the fitness injury the use of steroids and experimental drugs has gone up to insane levels for quicker results for less effort

#

pills for weight loss, pills for growing muscle

void condor
#

yeah, that's the instant gratification part, everybody is a winner, noone loses

ionic badger
#

its not necessarily the same thing, but the attitude is the same

ionic badger
void condor
#

was being sarcastic. ofc it doesnt

ionic badger
#

trying to play god here

#

everytime human's have done that, its severely backfired

void condor
#

there is no shortcut to become great at something

ionic badger
void condor
#

kk

ionic badger
#

its just a sad thing to kind of sit back and watch

void condor
#

ofc it will backfire. the aftermath will be hilarious

ionic badger
#

something good will come out of it for sure πŸ˜„

#

lots of internal collapse in this chase?

#

but what's the timeline for this and what happens in the interim

void condor
#

nature will find a way

ionic badger
#

it will

void condor
#

looking at it, the frequencies seem to going up, tightly correlated to how well everything gets connected

#

stock market is slowly reaching a point crypto was at a few years ago

ionic badger
#

frequencies of what? and the connection being the internet/network?

void condor
#

frequency or rate of change

ionic badger
#

market in general looks sketch

void condor
#

you noticed how things seem to speed up in like the last 20 years?

ionic badger
#

yeah

clear dome
#

"5-hour limit reached"

OK guys what do you want to talk about πŸ˜‚

void condor
#

time between important events seems to drastically decrease every year in general

ionic badger
#

well, they keep doing things to push the disaster further down the road though

void condor
#

and the impacts are getting bigger, so that indicates a lot of entropy across the board

ionic badger
#

so i don't think disaster is decreasing, i think its idly accumulating in the background as people keep shoving things in a cupboard

void condor
#

oh it is

#

funny enough I think when the next shit hits the fan, before people realize things have sprung already into another direction, there is literally no more time for reflection and cleanup

#

it's just chaos

#

and you know, chaos is a ladder

ionic badger
#

well yeah, people are already seemingly ill equipped to handle simple things

void condor
#

I think the only way to reduce the impact and not get dragged down with the madness is to simply disconnect

ionic badger
#

well, that's been my stance for the longest time, logo likes to say i live under a rock

#

but I see the effects on people in general

void condor
#

yeah, same

#

in the end I tend not to worry about shit too much

ionic badger
#

its the only thing to do, otherwise you end up doing nothing πŸ˜‚

void condor
#

xD

clear dome
#

I like to stay informed about what happens in the world, but at some point it's just an overload of very negative information on things you mostly can't change. That's probably how I end up doing things like making a game, music and so on

void condor
#

I wanted to code, now im greybeard, the philosopher

ionic badger
#

I think that's the right attitude

#

at least in my experience that attitude has been a massive net positive. The important things make it to me through people and friends

clear dome
void condor
ionic badger
#

it is high latency for sure, i found out about covid around a month or so after they announced lockdowns

void condor
#

this is what I meant earlier, anything else like social media is a low latency, unfiltered DDOS attack on your brain

ionic badger
#

But i lost nothing in that month

void condor
#

lol, a month?!

ionic badger
#

yeah πŸ˜‚

#

i had some time off work and it just never came up in convo

clear dome
# ionic badger I don't think its natural to absorb the worries of the "world"

And I'm not necessarily talking about social media information. I have "slower" media, like monthly papers that took their time to do articles with more research and are not chasing the last breaking news. It's just that when you read those, which are very interesting, they still end up showing you how much we are f*cked

ionic badger
void condor
ionic badger
#

🀣

crystal grove
ionic badger
#

I don't really talk about "current events" in general

clear dome
void condor
#

I remember you mentioned it. I cancelled my london trip btw. was way too short notice

clear dome
#

It's not only about being sad about it or not. Let's put it this way: even if we are mostly f*cked, there are still a lot of things to do to make the world slightly better

ionic badger
#

I use "your" as general term, not you in particular

clear dome
#

And for doing that in a way that is not just self-centered, you need to stay informed about what happens in the world

#

You need to look further than just your friends or family

ionic badger
#

To some extent for sure, but you don't start with the world and then your friends and family

clear dome
ionic badger
#

you start with yourself, then your family, then your friends, then your neighbours, community... etc

clear dome
#

People don't care about a global problem until they notice it hits their own circle (when it's too late)

ionic badger
#

the global occurs as a lack of care in ones own environment

#

because to actually care, takes a buttload of effort

clear dome
ionic badger
void condor
#

The other day I learnt it is apparently considered to be a bit autistic to have a calendar full off semi-randomized alerts remembering you to call your mum and your close friends

ionic badger
#

I'm just saying its a bit moot to look at something out of ones local sphere. Not in a self centered way, but more in a "practical focus" way

ionic badger
#

I'd say around 10 years ago I could be diagnosed with adhd

#

now? i'd say not at all

#

but if i exhibited said symptoms today? the overwhelming majority would say, go get your sanctioned meth

void condor
#

I legibly forget all these people exist. I would organically remember calling my mum every 6 months or so

clear dome
ionic badger
ionic badger
void condor
#

good

ionic badger
clear dome
ionic badger
#

but i think its "healthy"

ionic badger
clear dome
#

Looking at very negative media all day isn't caring as I mean it

ionic badger
#

yeah

#

I'm not sure how to define care, that's a tough one

#

But I think i could say that most people don't care but say they do

clear dome
#

I'm mostly talking about trying to understand peoples that are not like us, that don't have the same life as us, that have struggles that are different than ours. Basically trying to have more empathy about what is life for them, and taking that into consideration when we are making our own choices, for a better collective society. And I really don't think people are doing this too much, quite the opposite

ionic badger
#

I'd say in my life people did that more years ago than they do today

#

but i wouldn't say that I think today is particularly bad

#

my life experience*

#

i don't think much has changed over the years upon reflection

#

its the same as it was, just dressed differently and sometimes louder

#

If i were to venture a guess, i'd say the primary issue is probably people are spending too much time communicating with others online (irony not lost on me here lol) and less irl

clear dome
#

Well, we had terrible human interactions for centuries and more, probably for as long as there are humans

ionic badger
#

and just don't understand how to properly interact with humans

ionic badger
clear dome
ionic badger
#

But, the strategies of today, were employed when it was just a printing press

#

spam and advertisements were sent when snail mail was the main focus

#

whoever owns it, is probably just gonna do the same stuff with it as anyone else who owns it

#

I think its much more important for people to learn how to not be so influencable

clear dome
#

Well, it gives a different landscape if most media are owned by an extreme right wing entity vs more political borders

ionic badger
#

it does, that's a systemic problem in general

#

political opinion shouldn't matter when reporting facts/truth

clear dome
#

(and I mean education in a way that gives you more critical thinking and not just government propaganda of course)

ionic badger
#

need people to spread the word cause i think all the governments are a bit lost in general 🀣

clear dome
ionic badger
#

You know, I never even knew what critical thinking was until i took philosophy when i was around 17

ionic badger
#

disagree is even a weird word here, because as far as i'm concerend it is possbile to be absolutely neutral

#

or fact/truth based

clear dome
ionic badger
#

defos

clear dome
#

(which can explain why they don't make education a priority as mentioned above)

clear dome
ionic badger
#

only naive if you don't acknowledge how people are in general

#

but i do acknowledge that

clear dome
#

Even science is political. Even a medical study is political. Even if some medicine was proven to work with very serious studies, the only fact that this was studied over something else is already tied to a lot of things that are not just based on truth

ionic badger
#

you're right there, but that's a problem rather than a fact because it wasn't always like that

#

it became like that

#

like kids have to be taught how to lie

#

the default is truth

#

its just advantageous in the world to misrepresent, divide and argue

#

i don't think just for the government sake but for individual monetary gain

clear dome
ionic badger
#

or its an irrational argument

#

the earth is round, but, some will argue that its flat

clear dome
void condor
#

you make it sound as if anything being political is a bad thing. You live in the best place politics and diplomacy have ever created in our recorded history

ionic badger
#

i don't think being political is bad per say, I think the focus of modern politics is incorrect

clear dome
#

But maybe they are omitting that this water is taken away from another place, which is the exact subject of another media

#

And both are saying truth, in some way, but it just CAN'T BE neutral

void condor
#

nothing is neutral or true

#

it's always the eye of the beholder

clear dome
#

Totally agree with that

ionic badger
#

I don't agree with that, but i'll ponder on it for some time

#

maybe i'm not seeing something or confusing it with something else

#

which ironically gives you points x)

clear dome
#

I sense that you see politics as something reduced to "political parties" and all the bulshit that goes with it, but it's much wider than that imo

#

Most of our choices are political. Being apolitical is political, it's like you can't escape it

ionic badger
#

I think that's how politics are these days

#

so its pretty pointless to play the game

void condor
#

we have fucking quantum effects changing truth just bc we measure and take a look πŸ˜„

#

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

Observer effect (physics)

In physics, the observer effect is the disturbance of an observed system by the act of observation. This is often the result of utilising instruments that, by necessity, alter the state of what they measure in some manner. A common example is checking the pressure in an automobile tire, which causes some of the air to escape, thereby changing th...

ionic badger
#

that's not changing truth though

#

that's just changing

clear dome
ionic badger
#

abstractly

void condor
#

experiencing reality is a hard thing

ionic badger
#

it is

green breach
ionic badger
#

πŸ˜‚

clear dome
ionic badger
#

I got side tracked from the point i wanted to make with that

void condor
green breach
#

Sssssh

clear dome
#

I need to sleep anyway

#

Like it or not @ionic badger , but this conversation is definitely political as well

ionic badger
#

I don't think it is

clear dome
ionic badger
#

but maybe that's the whole perspective difference

void condor
#

if that doesnt work for you, @ionic badger is our fΓΌhrer. you hail him

ionic badger
#

You must salute to me every second hour

clear dome
#

Sorry, when in doubt, I just go on strike

void condor
#

πŸ˜„

clear dome
#

of course

#

πŸ₯–

ionic badger
green breach
#

This is becoming very fascist lmao

clear dome
void condor
ionic badger
green breach
ionic badger
clear dome
#

But more precisely, things are getting political when they involve people, when, in a way or another, it can influence their life, their opinion and their vision of the world

ionic badger
#

how do you determine what's neutral or not

void condor
#

There is literally no official common definition of the word "fascism". Not even in german, and we rode that horse till it, well, died, sorta..

ionic badger
#

technically, anything where there's a disagrrement or difference of view is political and anything inline with another is not?

clear dome
#

History has shown us that things that we decided were facts, and neutral ones, were then deconstructed and we eventually noticed they are biased

ionic badger
#

I agree with you there, but I don't think its impossible to be neutral (just to clarify that from earlier)

molten sleet
#

Cortez

#

Cortex

ionic badger
#

its daz's channel

#

so its daz vibes πŸ˜„

molten sleet
#

well dazCool and all but

#

Wheres the cortex

void condor
#

you got some gender term you wanna drop, or something?

molten sleet
clear dome
ionic badger
molten sleet
#

I make ONE correction...

void condor
#

Im just being inclusive here

ionic badger
#

you're labeled for life now cobalt

molten sleet
#

No need to make a mockery of it

#

It is an actual issue

clear dome
# ionic badger wdym here

Some ugly ones:

  • Some people declared as fact that black people are an inferior race to human
  • Homosexuality is a disease
ionic badger
void condor
#

you decide to take it seriously, I dont. So we good?

clear dome
#

I'm pretty sure for a lot of people at that time, these were just PLAIN NEUTRAL FACTS to them

ionic badger
clear dome
#

That's exactly what I mean

void condor
clear dome
#

what you may think is a fact is at the end likely a biased opinion

ionic badger
#

to quote daz, "to see reality is hard"

clear dome
#

Of course we can prove things with science and so on, but it's still built on bias in some ways

molten sleet
void condor
#

guys, come on, it's a miracle that we actually agree on a concept like a common name for a color

#

like as organisms

ionic badger
clear dome
ionic badger
clear dome
#

That's just one of the most rational things we came up with I guess, but still flawed

molten sleet
ionic badger
#

Your right in that its flawed, but, I think that highlights more to ones own development rather than a systemic problem

molten sleet
void condor
#

You wouldnt believe how crazy red/green weaknesses make conversations about design

clear dome
#

I don't know you just keep thinking we can be neutral so easily, I just think it's very hard to be

ionic badger
#

I don't think its easy, but it is probably simple

clear dome
#

(that interleaved conversation is... well, interleaved)

ionic badger
#

like talk to any kid and they are neutral

clear dome
ionic badger
#

or you get the sense of neutrality

void condor
#

I dont think kids are neutral at all

clear dome
#

They have no filter, but they are not neutral

void condor
#

they have encoded traits biasing them along several spectrums

#

genes man!

molten sleet
# void condor you decide to take it seriously, I dont. So we good?

Why not take it seriously?

In the modern political climate (especially so in the US), people who are LGBTQ+ are being discriminated against more and more

The least one can do is to switch to using more inclusive language
Pronouns aren't as simple as he or she

I'm not trying to be rude, condescending, or some form of keyboard warrior
I just wanted to make a friendly suggestion

void condor
#

here we go

clear dome
ionic badger
#

its actually a tough conversation in general

#

I think i'd really struggle to have this talk irl, i'm probably too practiced in typing πŸ˜…

clear dome
#

I actually have from time to time this talk with someone who is a bit like you IRL !billy

#

And that drives me crazy, but I need to sleep anyway

ionic badger
#

ahahhaha

molten sleet
ionic badger
#

i dunno man, some things are hard to fake for long periods of time

void condor
#

and that's literally the most polite answer you will get out of me right now

ionic badger
#

I've been on this server for....... at least 7 years

#

its hard to keep up a persona

#

even if one is different irl, i don't think particular views or aspects would change dramatically

#

your "being" would just add context to them

clear dome
#

Good night

void condor
#

There will be a time and a place we do this around a fire in some comfy chairs

ionic badger
#

gnight jeremy :D

clear dome
#

Sleeping at almost 2 is also political, bye

ionic badger
#

nah man, that's just a late night :D

clear dome
#

Just fighting against the sleep-early lobbies for what it's worth

ionic badger
#

I've been on a kick recently

void condor
#

xD

molten sleet
#

Gn jeremyps5a

ionic badger
#

I've been trying to examine what "health" means internally

clear dome
#

Actually, I could talk about why sleeping late is a political subject, but that will be for another day

ionic badger
void condor
molten sleet
ionic badger
void condor
#

ok. lemme tell you, there is literally nothing to be scared about at all

ionic badger
#

i was young there, i don't have the same "views" anymore

clear dome
#

Events in life give you different perspectives about death I guess

void condor
#

I came close in a slow and shitty way and it took a while to make sense of it

ionic badger
#

even something like fear to me now, has some kind of conceptual notion to it rather than a factual thing

#

but that isn't properly clear to me as of yet (if it ever could be)

clear dome
#

Long covid with very disabling neurological symptoms making you think your life is definitely fucked did have some effect on how I view life and death, personally

void condor
#

everything that you carry is simply your definition of yourself and your perspective of the world. it doesnt really matter in the end whether you were right or wrong, it matters what you learnt and how much anti-entropy you caused

ionic badger
#

do you think one can live outside of the realm of "thinking"?

void condor
#

dude, totally

#

again, it's about connections and resonance

ionic badger
#

yeah, your statement there reminds of that "area"

void condor
#

your brain is a friggin radio transmitter

ionic badger
#

Its why I see politics as somewhat problematic, because it encourages interaction through what you carry and define yourself as

#

when in reality, that's not really what one is

green breach
#

sigh the programmers are having philosophical conversations again

void condor
#

hush hush, the fΓΌhrer is typing

ionic badger
#

sshh i'm recovering from sickness and this is a fun alternative thing to coding

#

altho i wonder if i hear someone lobbying at my front door for not sleeping so late

void condor
#

people tend to seek connections. so jump onto a bandwagon is usually very easy

clear dome
void condor
#

and it leads us back to practicing critical thought and being insecure

ionic badger
#

where does insecurity fit into the picture again

void condor
#

insecurity is a catalyst for one or the other extreme

ionic badger
#

right

#

it matters what you learnt and how much anti-entropy you caused
So we put into action as much as we possibly can to positively effect the world around us (locally)

clear dome
#

Logo is right, we should just get back to our haxe programming bs

void condor
ionic badger
#

altho the internet really does expand ones reach

clear dome
#

Haxe, most neutral language of this discord server

void condor
#

hang on, why would the internet not be part of your world / reality

ionic badger
#

It is part of it

void condor
#

like I can make you laugh and give you a good time, with some words over the internet

green breach
#

I agree with fictional logo

clear dome
ionic badger
#

haxe is the great neutraliser

clear dome
#

Actually, using haxe is also political OK I HEAD TO BED

void condor
#

πŸ˜›

#

gn8 folks

ionic badger
clear dome
ionic badger
#

such an anti-neutral comment blobsad

green breach
clear dome
clear dome
ionic badger
#

sleep time for sure

#

i'll make sure my army is ready to collect you in the morning

void condor
#

shall I polish zeh tanktreads?

ionic badger
#

Make sure to use the puppy tears polish, we need things to run as smoothly as possible

void condor
#

the hellhound will be ready to strike in the morning. gn8 πŸ˜„

f505f61f-40d3-4d61-ae3c-eb2cb4d33b24.png
grizzled laurel
#

This has been an interesting read

pearl slate
#

my takes on the above:

  • AI trades "mastery" for "efficiency" at a very high level. I use my "potter making cup handles" analogy all the time now - which is testament to the "annoying" state of the world during its currently "transformative" / "disruptive" cycle (LLMs this time).
  • I've "banned" AI for some of my devs, one in particular was using it to fullfil tickets, and it did a piss poor job of it. But he wasnt at the skill level to know that, so assumed it was fine - which is a totally insane position imo - but here we are.
  • Everything is political. Not political in a "this party says that" or "my views are labeled some -ism" (although that is politics too ofc), but every part of human society (and indeed all societies) is governed by shared traits, morals, concepts, etc. That is all political. The only way you could avoid politics is if you were born in the jungle with ZERO other people (as to not be tainted by "human politics")
  • There is no such thing as "red"... there is a specific wavelength we call "red" (in english), but there is NO WAY to ever know if what you label as red is what i label as red. I might actually see "green" (wavelength wise) but call it "red", which is fascinating really, not that we label things "wrong" but that there is no way to ever know that - there ARE absolute truths, though they are few and far between (epistemologically); and certainly "colour labeling" isnt one of them
  • other things πŸ˜„
clear dome
void condor
pearl slate
# void condor > "potter making cup handles" hit me with that, I havent heard that I think

You are a potter, making cups. Cup handles are quite hard, they take time, require more skill to get right and be consistent. Ulitmately, they limit the number of cups you create in a day. So you automate, you buy a machine that does them, now you can output loads of cups (+handles), and you know how to make cup handles very well anyway, you just dont have the time to make them, so all good.

Now, if you plan on retiring one day, the next person will lose that mastery because the automation was already in place. So if the machine breaks down, or they want to "innovate" some new type of handle, the mastery is effectively diluted, and in a few "generations" possibily totally lost

(something like that - efficiency at the cost of mastery - which is perfectly valid in some / alot of cases - we are just seeing it with dev atm, where im not so sure its good - at least in my exp.)

clear dome
#

Interesting

#

I can tell cup handles are annoying (did pottery for a few years), but the basic ones are not that hard

pearl slate
#

spoiler: its not actually about cup handles πŸ˜„

clear dome
#

Another interesting bit is that when you delegate work to someone (vs delegating to an ai), you are also trading mastery for efficiency, but the main difference is that there is still at least another person who was involved in the thing you delegated, not just a tool

clear dome
void condor
#

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogbank

Fogbank

Fogbank (stylized as FOGBANK) is a code name given to a secret material used in the W76, W78 and W88 nuclear warheads that are part of the United States nuclear arsenal. The process to create Fogbank was lost by 2000, when it was needed for the refurbishment of old warheads. Fogbank was then reverse engineered by the National Nuclear Security Ad...

#

happens all the time. with AI the process is on steroids πŸ˜„

#

thanks

#

welding & metalurgy of saturn5 engines is another example where we know how it is supposed to work, but we lost the actual skill over a generation

clear dome
#

At least if the whole thing collapse we can re-learn I guess 🀣

pearl slate
#

im certainly not saying that any "automation" is a negative, quite the opposite really, there are LOADS of things we dont know anymore that were probably "standard" 500 years ago... so im not a luddite or "anti progress" (or even anti LLM for that matter - i use them constantly - but cautiously - which ive noticed isnt the case with the younger generation)

clear dome
#

But I also agree that used cautiously, it can be a very powerful tool, but it best complemented with proper skills, so forbidding the use of AI on someone who doesn't have the skills is not a bad idea imo

pearl slate
#

i guess my point of contention with LLMs is that they "arent there yet", but some people think they are, so they dont, or cant, hand-hold them. And if you dont have enough skill to be able to understand the code that an LLM has spat out, then you probably shouldnt be using an LLM (at our current point in time)

clear dome
#

Totally agree with that

#

I'm really wondering if we will reach that point were it would output good software 99.99% of the time without needing to know any of it, but we are far from this today anyway

#

And even if we reached that point, we would need some form of skill to just be able to express correctly what we want from it

pearl slate
#

indeed, i think there will always need to be a human in the loop, but ironically enough, the more we use them (and the better they get) the less chance there is for a human to exist (in the future) who will be able to sanity check

#

i dont think dev is going anywhere any time soon, im talking in the far future (which, for the most part i dont actually care about at all since ill be dead)

clear dome
#

Anyway, my personal rule of thumb is that anything I do with AI, I can do it myself (slower). So far this rule holds true

#

So if all AIs shut down tomorrow, I'd just continue working on my stuff without it, no issue, back to slower pace

pearl slate
#

my rule of thumb is (kinda) that im happy for LLMs to write code, but not in actual projects, ill type it out myself into the project or sometimes copy and paste (rarely). I generally try to make sure variable names wont work, etc so i have to manually integrate it - the act of moving it over to the target context is usually enough for me to have vetted it

#

there are some exceptions: sort algos (i hate them, then break my brain for some reason)... anything "date time"... also a total blind spot for me (always has been)... ... oh, and SQL... im defo the "second generation potter" for SQL, ill let LLMs do it all day long and i dont care about the query, just the result... but its never mission critical (just looking to extract info usually)

clear dome
#

From my point of view, as long as you review in details the output, it’s not more risky to review code from a llm than from someone. They both can give you bad code that you’d need to spot anyway. Then you make feedback when that happens until the next review. The quality of the feedback (and the second output from person or llm) highly depends on the quality of your feedback, thus your skills

pearl slate
#

true enough, the brick wall (or speed bump i suppose) is just something i put in place for my code if im using an LLM, and its just so i dont get too lazy / reliant

#

its a slipperly slope (i think), that the LLM writes perfect code 90 times in a row, and its directly integrated, so you let your guard down... obviously good reviews help here, but i dont even want the code directly integrated (currently)

clear dome
#

Not gonna lie, claude code with opus 4.5 is doing wonders when you know how to use it πŸ˜„

pearl slate
#

(kinda a little bit like how you review code a little differently depending on who wrote it - which can also explode in your face from time to time)

clear dome
clear dome
pearl slate
# clear dome This is just staying serious about your work I guess

true, but its also how the human mind works (always looking for ways to save energy basically). If there was like a trap door and out came either a blue or red ball, and its your job to get the red ones and "reject" them and for ages it was only blue ones, it would be much more probable that you would miss a red one... if every second, or third, was a red ball, you would be much better at "catching" them (imo)

#

so, the better than LLMs get, and assuming they have direct access to code, the higher the chance is (imo) that something can go catastrophically wrong - but, i defo agree, that the same is perfectly possible with human authors / code review

clear dome
pearl slate
clear dome
#

Anyway, for me the biggest difference with LLMs is the feedback loop time, which is insanely quicker than with a person, but apart from that, the process feels quite similar to me. I do care about the code that ends up in the software I'm responsible of (that's why I'm also very cautious about external dependency cost), so llm or colleague output has to go through my review and if I fail to do that then I'm not doing my job seriously

alpine forge
#

That's my main error with LLMs. At first it felt like it will enable me to get bunch of things done fast, but really it just makes some thing much faster, but it won't do everything.

#

I.e. I can't think about it as "now I can do that thing I don't need", as that will still take my time, or the result will be useless.

#

Now I can't seem to fill up the pro sub weekly usage, I'm back to being the bottleneck. πŸ˜„

clear dome
#

Yeah, I guess it's different for each person. I am really benefiting from these tools personally. There are things that I would simply not even tried to do, not because I don't have the skills to do so, but because I didn't have the bandwidth

#

Access to LLMs is basically giving you the possibility to delegate things, even for personal stuff for which you wouldn't have paid someone for delegating that task

neat smelt
clear dome
#

Submitter posting ai written copyright analysis after the maintainer’s reply is some fucking level of troll

neat smelt
#

I would like to think so but I've seen "AI absolutists" with such behavior in other cases too

#

A lack of budget to review his own pr was also a notable statement

clear dome
#

Maybe it was better when those folks wouldn’t be able to submit a pr at all

#

And for that it’s worth Sonnet 4.5 is definitely not able to make such change without going haywire

ionic badger
#

oooff what an interesting situation

#
  • A fully working feature
  • No human understands it
#

also, I've found that AI can be very verbose in its solutions

#

I do wonder if that 13k pr needs to be 13k of lines

clear dome
#

Well, apparently it’s not certified fully working

clear dome
#

It’s typical Claude Sonnet doing its Sonnet stuff

#

Anyway, the fact that this guy thinks it’s ok to submit such pr like that is a plain red flag. Just like what Ian was saying, remove ai from those folks until they get better

neat smelt
#

I've found many people are making software very quickly and then expecting a lot of buy in for it, in my peripheral

clear dome
#

Sure actions before discussion isn’t necessarily bad, but here he obviously didn’t care much about the output he is trying to merge

neat smelt
#

It's like the friend who always had a "killer app idea" and wanted you to make it... Can now make the killer app and wants you to use it

ionic badger
ionic badger
clear dome
clear dome
ionic badger
clear dome
#

Idea Guy v2.0 definitely !

neat smelt
clear dome
ionic badger
#

well yeah, people are dependent upon the AI for the knowledge right, so if AI says it doesn't exist - it probably doesn't and they don't have the skill to vet that

#

You know what I think will handicap AI, people who value mastery, are probably going to step away from using AI in more and more complex ways - because they want to do those parts themselves

#

so AI's ability to learn will likely get bottlenecked - at least to some degree

neat smelt
#

I think it's own output will cause the most problems

#

It already ate from all the data there was to eat, any new training will rapidly include the output it's trying to improve on

#

Especially places like github that are encouraging huge volume of AI output

#

The equivalent of "Moore's law" in llm has probably already given way and now it's exponential cost for linear improvement, based on the training costs of the big providers

ionic badger
#

you know, i wonder what impact this will have on open source

#

it might actually negatively impact it

neat smelt
#

It's definitely a negative. Open source bottleneck as we see with haxe for even slightly non trivial project isn't writing code it's reviewing and planning

#

Fast large low quality prs will increase maintainer burnout without progressing projects (or we already see this in things such as ffmpeg, but they were already being abused by large software houses)

ionic badger
#

i mean, just over time people may start reducing the amount of things they put out as opensource

neat smelt
#

I think we're already seeing that to some degree but it's usually people putting repos behind login walls

#

Just to stop ai scrapers

ionic badger
#

i guess that's why self hosting is gaining traction in general

neat smelt
#

There is, absent of ai, a push for digital sovereignty in some circles

#

You can only see your platform go bad so many times before you stop trusting, I guess

ionic badger
#

I can see the perspective of "I made this really complicated thing, and people can learn from it" to "I made this complicated thing, and AI can help someone beat me at this thing"

neat smelt
#

The worst is they don't even have to "beat" to "win", you just have to be perceived up build more "whatever" faster to take away the oxygen

ionic badger
#

like that kind of reality probably doesn't matter so much, but, the thought will be out there now

neat smelt
ionic badger
#

well, if you can't code but are able to market something vs can code and can't market. Who's in the better situation here?

neat smelt
ionic badger
#

granted this disconnect has probably always existed but its defo gonna be more pronounced now

neat smelt
#

more likely for state actors trying to target them for supply chain attacks, like xz utils πŸ˜‚

clear dome
#

Many months back, @void condor was saying AI are some sort of amplifiers of intention. I think this is very accurate, for the better and the worse

ionic badger
# neat smelt I do think though that the most important (infrastructure wise) open source proj...

put it this way:
"Hey claude, read through the aseprite repo for me and make me a similar but slightly different version with all the features plus these ones that I will tell you"
...
...
"All done, here's your project!"
"Hmm. You know, I don't like the aseprite UI, make something a bit simpler and more modern. I will guide you through what is good for the average consumer"
"Okay got it!"

Ship it closed source, and with very little effort you now have a product that is competitive with aseprite and depending on how you market it you're will very likely earn and attract more money (upfront anyway) than aseprite ever did, simply because of aseprite's business model

clear dome
#

So if you are into bulshitting, you are going to do it even more (and it might work)

#

Looking at linkedin posts is such a wild ride those days

ionic badger
#

I think AI will suffer from that rule of "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure"

neat smelt
ionic badger
#

yeah, i don't think such a thing would be too easy to achieve

#

and i don't think such things happen often with the currently anyways

neat smelt
#

I was actually a victim of something like this once long ago and it was surprisingly not too hard to recover from then

#

Not sure if the world has changed since πŸ˜‚

ionic badger
#

humans will always do stuff like this, its in our nature

#

doesn't make us bad or whatever, just worth being aware of it

#

because then you can make proper decisions

neat smelt
#

Momentum is in the favor of the victim in these cases usually, but I can see someone doing it to a fledgling project with some success