Good point, just delete this disc then. No point in learning
#protection
daring bay
strong forum
As its been said, you stack vers when you start dying even though you're playing correctly
We're not saying you're ignoring vers
Nobody said that
amber siren
cosmic canyon
I firmly believe the tanks role is to mitigate incoming damage and truly master keeping the pace as high as possible without dying. Me doing 50% or 40% of the damage of my dps players in the group really doesn't matter if I take 10-15% less damage doing so.
strong forum
I'm doing 20-22s with 3% vers, and could very well go higher but I'm going at my own pace with a non meta group and especially with a non meta healer.
main vault
Well most people dont feel that way
strong forum
I'm doing 80% dps of my dps players
main vault
Including the top players that keep getting referenced
amber siren
ok, if that's what you want to think then that's fine for your groups but no one is expected to agree with you
main vault
And if you are doing 50% of your DPS damage you need to play better
strong forum
That's on the low end as warrior, yes
still pagoda
Most tanks in this discord wants to be dps it seems
Welcome to the reality of M+\
you either damage as a tank, or you're meaningless to the group
main vault
Its the reality of tanking from Legion+
still pagoda
^
main vault
Tanks are just DPS with threat
strong forum
What kind of numbers are you pulling when you say that 40-50% of a dps is fine. Just out of curiosity
Cuz for a vdh and BDK that might be OK, but as warrior that's a đ¤
cosmic canyon
It was an example
strong forum
I guess
still pagoda
that one moment when i pull 50-80% of DPS damage without TD
main vault
And random numbers
cosmic canyon
I always did at least twice the damage of my warrior tank on my hunter
strong forum
That's a bad warrior tank then
cosmic canyon
Or a good hunter
main vault
well he is the war tank lol
strong forum
Cuz not once, have my bm or fire mage doubled my dps
I have not seen my mage do 200k overall
Or bm
Or even 170k
main vault
that would be the dream
strong forum
So idk bruh
cosmic canyon
Since stuff dies to fast
strong forum
I'm pulling 70-110k dps as tank. Anything lower is not acceptable to me
main vault
Yeah Frost was bis
daring bay
I mean, dps doing low dps is a dime in a dousen. Bragging that you play with bad people is...as you would say..Wierdflex but ok
still pagoda
welcome to the reality of lower keys
cosmic canyon
It's OK milk, trolls are everywhere.
Just read between the lines
And be happy :)
amber siren
what
main vault
I think he was referring to you mate
still pagoda
where dps don't do dps, you learn more with each dungeon yet 90% of runs are bricked thanks to people not doing any mechanics and endless feel of nervewreck
daring bay
Idk, its such a contrast compared to the hpally discord where there is actual numbers and spreadsheets being thrown
and real discussions
this just reminds me of twitch chat
still pagoda
this just reminds me of twitch chat
Late night warrior discussions for ya
daring bay
I wont argue "X thing is bad" but i really would like a reason why
undone sun
4pm
scenic hollow
Tbh, Iâm not sure what you want people to say? Opinions differ to yours, hence, they are wrong. Itâs like you have an agenda youâre pushing and everyone has to conform
strong forum
1am
amber siren
oh boy my favourite, if you don't agree with me and my made up numbers then you're toxic
cosmic canyon
main vault
Ok fine Thyme
undone sun
đ
daring bay
@strong forum "I am doing allot of dps compared to my dps" is baisicly the only thing you said last 10 min with some noise around it
scenic hollow
End of the day, each tank has a niche role they somewhat fill that increases their particular desirability to groups. Warriors happens to be damage and physical mitigation.
main vault
RedWoyer in a 18 in Feb
amber siren
yes, because warrior dps is extremely high and if we're using the made-up numbers given to us, then they were extremely low given the context
daring bay
FH KR?
amber siren
which was what nom was referring to
daring bay
18 is pretty low for the top people
daring bay
why such an old log?
main vault
Most "parses" on wcl are just scores pulled from apl
daring bay
Did you just fish out hes highest dps run?
main vault
Not actual logs
so you bitch about no real numbers
Get real numbers
then bitch about those
Im out
strong forum
What exactly are you here for
main vault
To argue and complain
undone sun
đ
amber siren
milk unless youre actually willing to put logs up showing exactly what you're describing in your groups then we have nothing to base your assumptions on, right now it's all magical numbers
amber siren
well im guessing something to do with your damage intake or your dps given the past half an hour but at this point im not sure really, we've gone from leech to why you shouldn't be gearing like dudes running 26 keys
strong forum
Alright, I've said the reasoning for vers for 25+ keys
I've given the reasons that speaks against dropping ilvl for leech
What else would be your question. If you want perfect numerical values for leech I have to disappoint you.
Because opposing to healers, we don't care about hps, and leech doesn't double dip like for healers
The only spreadsheet that exists is secondary stat defensive gain in a vacuum
upper violet
cosmic canyon
So you have to compete in the damage meters because there is no way to track total mitigated damage in details?
amber siren
What?
main vault
đ¸
upper violet
Lmao
strong forum
Dealing maximum dmg whilst surviving is the goal of m+
amber siren
You can track damage taken easily so I'm guessing that's some sort of passive aggressive comment about e-peen
main vault
goal of tanking in general
main vault
yup
strong forum
Maximum dps without risking deaths
cosmic canyon
Rybie you can track damage taken easily, but not how much of the damage you took you mitigated, or at least not that I know of.
strong forum
Logs
amber siren
main vault
next youll say you dont log
undone sun
there's quite a bit details doesn't show easily
amber siren
I'm really not sure what the point you're making
main vault
there are more tools than deails, ill have you know
strong forum
Advanced combat logs are a thing in m+ just as much as in raiding
undone sun
argument
main vault
Lets live our life on details
strong forum
It's just not used as much by the average player
cosmic canyon
Yes it is, but there is no "top list" of mitigated damage in a certain key etc etc
There is toplists in damage done
amber siren
details only function is damage done wdym
strong forum
Cuz it's pointless
main vault
Also
amber siren
strong forum
Looking to be the tankiest tank that takes the absolute least amount of dmg isn't gonna get you very far, or is very useful
Unless your healer can compensate the dmg you will lack
cosmic canyon
Nor is the most damaging tank that can't take any damage
strong forum
Who said you can't take any dmg
cosmic canyon
Who said you can't do any damage?
main vault
You completely missed the part about surviving content and then dealing damage didnt you
amber siren
Surviving a pack and surviving a pack with 5% DR is the same outcome
strong forum
I'm not stopping you from going full turtle. I'm advising against it
main vault
*2.5%
strong forum
That's about it
cosmic canyon
Nexii treat others on the same level yeah? Obviously the faster a pack, or rather the dungeon goes to finish the better.
main vault
Why would you treat every run the same?
daring bay
Maybe a good balance is the answer? we can all prob draw the land in the sand diffrently but dont thing this is a black and white answer. Dont see any tanks going either full mitigation or full dmg in higher end keys
Even 26+ runs have TD not just pure %vers
But they arent going crit gems either which would be more dmg
main vault
you realize that is literally what people have been telling you for an hour now right
cosmic canyon
There is different approaches to it. Look at it as a scale. Where you in one end take a lot of damage and do a lot of damage, and on the other the complete opposite.
This discord leans towards the prior a bit too heavy and that's all I'm saying.
"leech completely useless"
"2.5% mitigation completely useless" etc etc etc
upper violet
amber siren
Again, they're stacking mitigation to the point where they can survive - stacking DR after the point of surviving is slower. Which is the point we've been making for the past hour.
undone sun
no one said leech is useless, just not worth dropping ilevel for
main vault
You still dont take alot of damage
undone sun
it's a good bonus
main vault
my god
undone sun
leech isn't more valuable than any other stat, i don't see how hard that is to understand
daring bay
@undone sun Why is the top m+ tank running with a 465 leech ring? i cant imagen he dosnt have a better ilvl ring
sick sentinel
Lol I mean they do what they want
daring bay
oh right, the top players are prob building wrong :)
cosmic canyon
If I can take 10% less damage with a different build, or focus on my corrupts, even if I do 20% less damage.. If the gain from this is that my 3x dps classes can do 10% more each its well worth it
undone sun
no
they aren't
they're building for their situation
you are not in that situation
cosmic canyon
Especially considering they have bigger numbers to begin with.
undone sun
stop it
amber siren
if you think he's running a 465 ring for leech i genuinely have no words
undone sun
it takes 5 seconds to think why
daring bay
so leech is good for 26+ keys? :O
main vault
Until then, play like you
upper violet
If I can take 10% less damage with a different build, or focus on my corrupts, even if I do 20% less damage.. If the gain from this is that my 3x dps classes can do 10% more each its well worth it
@cosmic canyon wrong
daring bay
i mean, its super easy getting 470 rings
sick sentinel
For their 26 key it might feel good to them
undone sun
i don't have the reasons why they do what they do, but i sure as hell know it doesn't pertain to the average player
daring bay
so that means hes atleast dropping 5 ilvl if hes been super unlucky with ring drops
amber siren
rings have a different stat allocation than most pieces
a 465 is easily comparable with a 470
main vault
Fine, gear like them in your weekly 15 no leaver
cosmic canyon
Think you'd have to elaborate now @upper violet
daring bay
ah, so dropping ilvl for leech is worth it in some scenarios?
undone sun
how the hell
amber siren
jesus
daring bay
:v
undone sun
did you get that from what i said
main vault
You are actually đ¸
upper violet
U taking less damage doesnt really help ur dps players the healer so ur wrong
amber siren
he's dropping ilvl because stat allocation on rings is substantially more into stamina, the secondary stats are very close
daring bay
@amber siren So you think if he had a 470 ring with the same stats without leech he be using that one?
amber siren
absolutely
daring bay
Alright, thanks for the answer
main vault
you got that answer an hour ago
upper violet
Dddd dud but som1 in top playrs usink lech dud
strong forum
There's only 1 haste vers ring in raid
And he's using said haste vers ring
So he can't use a 475 haste vers + socket ring unless he gets it from weekly cache
So...
:)
main vault
we all know weekly chest only gives crit/mast gear
sick sentinel
Did someone say leech
undone sun
đŞ
scenic hollow
Let me reiterate whatâs been said over and over. Prot warriors main goal is to mitigate as much damage as possible, while providing as much DPS as possible in a Mythic + scenario. Obviously that is applicable to all tanks, but warriors do it best in the current state of the game, hence their massive desirability in higher keys.
daring bay
@strong forum Thanks for your answer, was helpfull :)
strong forum
I should've checked his gear earlier.
scenic hollow
Itâs a race in m+. Not a game of survival. You have to push the envelope to succeed. Warriors, currently, are the best at doing that.
strong forum
đ
daring bay
I mean, its a good balance of defensive and offensive
strong forum
Yes
cosmic canyon
It's a race where damage done on the tank isn't the only factor.. We are in agreement.
strong forum
And warrior has insane physical midigation without sacrificing dmg
main vault
bleeds arent technically physical
daring bay
Oh?
main vault
they bypass armor
undone sun
because they bypass armor
main vault
and cant be blocked
daring bay
Alright, didnt know they didnt count as physical dmg
cosmic canyon
Rezan bleed doesn't have to happen that often if your group play the kite game.
main vault
they are in the physical school, but do not act as physical damage
undone sun
just a special tag of bleed
main vault
yeah
sick sentinel
kite game take long yuck
cosmic canyon
How will deep wounds interact in shadowlands?
strong forum
Yea you'd rather cycle CDs
cosmic canyon
No it doesn't...
daring bay
He moves pretty slow, you have to be pretty bad to lose dps there if he moves
But i guess it depends on the key lvl? and affixes
strong forum
Well you lose your own dps
main vault
but tanks dont do dps
strong forum
And healer dps
cosmic canyon
No you don't?
cosmic canyon
Let's... Let's just not argue this. Kinda pointless evidently so.
amber siren
sick sentinel
We will
undone sun
main vault
usually what happens
sick sentinel
Is the better play
strong forum
Yes, like everybody does
main vault
Thats what most people do
sick sentinel
You keep doing it wrong
main vault
even the people pushing 25+
main vault
@amber siren not wrong
scenic hollow
Rezans pursuit and fear gives you ample time to be âtoppedâ off and bleed to be healed through. Kiting is a ridiculous notion. Youâre just prolonging the fight, and introducing more variables that can fuck everything up.
still pagoda
^
sick sentinel
Canât DR??? Now I feel like youâre trolling
strong forum
There's plenty of tools to midigate it
daring bay
Havent been keeping track, isnt the Rezan pursit the kiting? Like people dont vanish the pursuit to give the tank some more time for the next bleed?
sick sentinel
Yes weak move
strong forum
Vanishing it gives you more dps, to kill it faster
daring bay
Ah, rads must be a weak tank then for screaming at hes mage not to invis :V
amber siren
?
strong forum
That then depends on your CDs and healer
scenic hollow
Yep. Rezan is a pure race. The difficulty in that fight is introduced the longer the fight goes on.
cosmic canyon
No you don't ub. Depending on if you do priestess first or jump straight to Rezan, if you do Rezan on the right side of the pit (North) you can just go back/forth without risk. Its chasing a dps, if you have hunters in your group just move to the other pillar, basically you're 5 people hitting a slowly moving training dummy. Instead of using cds to stay alive on you and the healer.
The argument that the healer is "losing dps" from the kite I find the most funny here.
strong forum
You are talking about pursuit
strong forum
I thought you mean soem kind of kiting the bleed
cosmic canyon
Pursuit
strong forum
Then say that
last mason
What did I walk into
main vault
A shitshow
strong forum
I thought there was some scuffed shit where you run away from rezan 24/7
sick sentinel
Still donât move boss stand there and bop big kek
daring bay
@amber siren Hes one of the 5th highest rated m+ prot warrior tank. Watched him scream at hes mage not to invis rezan.
scenic hollow
Running away from pursuit isnt kiting. Itâs a bloody mechanic.
strong forum
^
strong forum
If rads screams at his mage not to invis then it must be because they can't cover it with CDs or externals
Totally valid option
scenic hollow
When you said kiting, I (as well as most) assumes you got threat then just ran the entire fight.
scenic hollow
Because thatâs kiting
strong forum
You tell me
daring bay
@strong forum Nah, its becuse hes a weak tank as said earlier :)
scenic hollow
And thatâs what you said
strong forum
@daring bay hawgz is known to make jokes
scenic hollow
Youâd do that because thatâs what you described when you said âkitingâ rezan. Thatâs kiting by definition of the word
undone sun
"jokes"
amber siren
if you say 'im kiting the bleed' then no one is going to make the connection you're talking about the pursuit
sudden kayak
hello i recently just got my cape completed all upgrades up to rank 5 for what vessels i had i got a appendage corruption for this week do i still wear it even though its 420 for prot warrior or should i erase the void ritual 15 corruption and wear 440 ilevel
daring bay
@amber siren i did
scenic hollow
Pursuit is a mechanic. It isnât a kite.
daring bay
I mean, what else would he mean?
amber siren
im glad milk and keening on are on the same pagre
i mean
the actual bleed
in the fight
strong forum
I'd run with ilvl because appendages at low ilvl does nothing @sudden kayak
amber siren
pursuit isnt a bleed
cosmic canyon
I'm assuming a certain level of play going into this argument. And in my world it wasn't even in the books to run away from Rezan if you don't have pursuit in play.
In my world however, being alliance a lot of groups insist on melding the mechanic to keep the boss to the face of the tank. This results in extra bleeds and more risk.
last mason
Wait appendage scales with ilvl? Not just rank?
scenic hollow
@cosmic canyon Risk vs. Reward.
sudden kayak
oh i see i see even though its 66 corruption still dont wear it right
sick sentinel
Did anyone else see thymes jab at me no respek
cosmic canyon
Yes @scenic hollow .. Well put. My point exactly
daring bay
@strong forum All? even TD?
sudden kayak
kk so erase the 15 void ritual then wear the 440 ilevel?
strong forum
Td and EV scale off of HP
undone sun
no one even blinked at it hawgz
strong forum
So they work at low ilvl and
main vault
If you invis his pursuit doesnt he snap to another player?
strong forum
No nexii
cosmic canyon
No. It stops
cosmic canyon
Rofl.. Ok nvm
daring bay
He insta dies
main vault
Hmmm Im thinking of something that snaps
cosmic canyon
Chat layers guys
main vault
Oh the Kr charge
sick sentinel
Imagine stepping into an AD to begin with tho
last mason
This conversation is cringe. The mods were right on every point a while idk why theyâre still arguing strawmen and semantics
sudden kayak
at nom so erase the 15 void ritual and wear the highest ilevel 440 bracer right?
sick sentinel
Lul
last mason
Color names=mod to međ¤ˇââď¸
strong forum
You can wear the void ritual
sudden kayak
kk
daring bay
Quick, mods are asleep. Lets have a meaningless spammy discusion!
last mason
Us brown shitters are low lvl
sudden kayak
ty ty will do
sick sentinel
Excuse me
undone sun
yellow is just glorified brown shitter
sick sentinel
I am at leaSt medium level
strong forum
Thyme throwing shade
undone sun
facts
strong forum
Not wrong
sick sentinel
He hit me earlier nome
undone sun
i was yellow for a long time
strong forum
I know
sick sentinel
He is throwing punches today
last mason
What is orange then @undone sun
strong forum
He always is
undone sun
theorycrafter
last mason
Tell archi to his face
sick sentinel
I do the maths as wel would you like to hear it
strong forum
Orange is
Blue is 
amber siren
big math
last mason
Ik lol u said yellow is glorified shitter and I feel like orange is one step higher
sick sentinel
Hawgz is 
last mason
Jokes
undone sun
hawgz is đ đŞ
shut summit
sick sentinel
Thyme you be careful before I invade the bear discord
undone sun
strong forum
Booster
undone sun
đ
main vault
Do you really still?
sick sentinel
Can you make me an admin
sudden kayak
is there anyway to get a better one hander and shield out of 390 boosted 120 prot warrior quick the only way i can think of is pray then attend 5 time walkingg dungeons and hope either one drops at 445
strong forum
M0s drop 430s
sudden kayak
oh nice kk will do
strong forum
You can cap conquest for 445 iirc
main vault
Guys
last mason
Someone make me a white name
strong forum
sudden kayak
lol nom thats a game at the arcade
last mason
Wasnât devastator actually the chad big dmg talent in legion
undone sun
yeah, because it wasn't competitive with BV
it was on the row with NS and Indom, iirc
daring bay
I feel uncomfertable not having somthing to press :V
main vault
you dont press devastator often
daring bay
Iknow
scenic hollow
@sudden kayak if you can tolerate pvp, get the one you get from CP. I think itâs 440? Also check world quests.
sudden kayak
kk
scenic hollow
You also get 425 armour randomly grinding that, which may/may not be of use to a fresh boost.
sudden kayak
but wont the other people kill me since im 417 ilevel
scenic hollow
Doesnât matter. Just accept youâre useless and go for completion/carry
scenic hollow
Itâll take a bit longer, but itâs a guaranteed 440 weapon with a few bits of armour along the way
sudden kayak
kk
strong wedge
question how much dmg should a warrior around 2k io pull without Twilight D ? im sitting around 30 k
]
strong forum
Score isn't a measurement
But without TD you can push 50-60k
Even more than that, but yeah. All comes down to you
But 30k is quite on the low end
still pagoda
But without TD you can push 50-60k
Even more if you don't slack on TClap
@strong forum
especially on pulls of 2-3 packs
it will go over 100k quickly
strong forum
Do more
still pagoda
i did one 150k pull in +14TD last week tho
though it is just one pull of whole beach
anyway wanna do more
and slowly going towards that
corruptions will rain down on me since i've finally got to the point of farming visions with masks(lack of final archive upgrade and cloak lvl made me struggle with time management)
strong forum
Visions get giga easy with cloak 11 and gift/elite exterm
still pagoda
cloak 10 and gift/eliteexterm
strong forum
11 is the big jump
still pagoda
got gift 2 days ago... And did my first full no mask run today
next week gonna be the farm week
easy affixes, TD FINALLY TIMEABLE, corruptions raining down
maybe even Get'Ikku will drop
sick sentinel
My average without td is like 60-70k
main vault
Man
mild river
So I have a question: i was tanking the second boss in Shrine (the duo boss) and i died to a thing called blowback. Is it avoidable damage or nah?
main vault
420 wrists with vers3 from first vision
amber siren
blowback is the cyclone i think? i could be totally wrong
scenic hollow
Itâs the cyclone that she makes after you interrupt her when sheâs buffed I think
Youâre better off not interrupting her when she has that buff up as then she wonât make cyclones
I forget the name of the buff. DBM warns you anyway
Blessing of something.
sharp night
you just dodge it
amber siren
Yeah interrupting with blessing of the tempest buff will cause her to spawn them, if your group is coordinated and you can trust people to dodge you can continue to interrupt her during it, just need additional awareness
sharp night
there's a brown swirl on the ground that shows where it's gonna spawn
scenic hollow
Yeah with pugs and shit I personally donât interrupt. My party does usually, so youâre best just dodging
sharp night
it's a bad idea to not interrupt unless you're doing low keys anyway
dodging some tornadoes is better than letting casts go off
scenic hollow
Your own safety yeah. But assume your groups are mongs is a good starting point
If there is some form of AE shit on the ground, even with a swirl etc warning you itâs coming, itâs usually safe to assume one person is getting hit by it.
still pagoda
One person getting hit is definitely better then letting big damage spell cast go through
IMO
scenic hollow
Probably tbh. Just saying I personally donât interrupt it but my group does so itâs no difference anyway.
Anyway the tl;dr = dodge swirly brown shit on ground and youâre fine
sharp night
or you just
tank it in the safe spot corner
so nobody even has a chance to get hit
scenic hollow
Never done that. Thatâs the top right facing start of encounter right?
main vault
So legit question, why dont they do that in MDI?
scenic hollow
I mostly run around like an idiot keeping cleave away from party and out of runes
sharp night
yeah the corner behind galecaller opposite of the other guy
main vault
the one right in front of the ledge right
sharp night
yes
there's one on the other side as well but it's not as obvious where the boundary is
for the tornadoes
scenic hollow
Hate that dungeon tbh, since I pug everything. Itâs very pug unfriendly
main vault
Its horrible in pugs
sharp night
also what do you mean they don't do it in mdi nexii
i went to check vod and they're using it lol
main vault
I didnât see all of them
It I may have missed it
I know some didnât in the first weekends
Just didnât know if there was a reason not to
sharp night
if they're pulling trash on top of the bosses they probably just do it in the middle
and have everyone dodge
but when they do bosses alone they're def using the safe spots
sudden kayak
remember 1st pray then do 5 time walking dungeons to upgrade 390 wepaon and shield well it was a 445 weapon after the 5 dungeons haha fuck yea dude
scenic hollow
Nice man. Will help you a lot being fresh.
Spam Atal Dazar at low mythic. You can almost get a full set of top quality gear from that dungeon alone
main vault
Sword and Shield is great from there
sudden kayak
đ đ
its safe to use devestator in a raid { im guessing cuz u have multiple healers} but for dungeons u cant since u have 1? im just looking at wcl website but im not sure what to do
maybe just use booming voice if your low ilevel tho for sure
sick sentinel
BV is the better defensive play 100% of the time
Devastator is used for ST damage in raid only mainly because you can get away with sacrificing some survivability for damage in that setting
sudden kayak
oh ok u also need gear for it to im thinking
sudden kayak
yea the extra rage for ignore pain at low ilevel is awsome
sick sentinel
Itâs a good talent. And is hands down the best talent for survival
just gave warr a go in some mythic plus
jesus christ this spec is FAST
just spamming CDs
and everything is glowing lmao
amber siren
limpid pawn
what do you guys think of ilgy helm
sick sentinel
It is a good helmet
A very good helmet actually. Just doesnât have OP
Didnât we talk about this yesterday lol
main vault
I feel 98% of things are repeated
undone sun
Yup, that's class discords
main vault
It wouldnt be as bad if it was meaningful questions
Not just, whats stats? or what do I wear?
Or, how good is leech?
placid oar
Happy Tuesday everyone, can I ask if there is any source to reference for periods to keep my shield block up in a dungeon or when I can afford to drop it? Am trying to improve and be less paperish as a tank in M+
amber siren
yeah that's true
main vault
Well like 85%+ of dmg in m+ is melee/physical
left hatch
bascially anytime you have threat you should try to have SB up
you don't want to overlap it with Last Stand
main vault
Would be more beneficial to figure out what isnt physical
placid oar
Ahhh, so as Long as I donât face my back to mobs and keep pressing shield block on cd I am good?
I see
main vault
At a very basic level, sure
placid oar
Make sense, but how about mobs? Sometimes I feel I am getting tricked for some reason though I am ilvl 475
left hatch
theres a little more nuance, like you won't be able ot have it up 100% so you can say.... have 2sgaps between uses instead of 4s after both charges are gone
main vault
you bridge gaps with LS, Spell Reflect what you can
amber siren
@placid oar any period where you want to have SB is when you're taking physical, blockable damage which will most of the fights - there are exceptions to the rule, e.g. shadow of zul and some bosses in motherlode but if youre taking physical damage (that you can block), you keep block up as much as you can
main vault
Use CDs and dont hold them
placid oar
Ahhh
main vault
Theres alot more to do than just SB
left hatch
also Shockwave can buy you time as charges come back
main vault
Demo Shout for rage to get Ava up faster
main vault
pmuch
left hatch
and Last stand is closer to that as well. Its more of an extra long SB charge
than a defensive cd to hold
main vault
you wanna Demo on CD for rage, to spend to reduce CD on Ava and Demo, to Ava more and Demo more, to get rage to lower CD on Ava and DEmo, etc
placid oar
Okay thanks a lot for those advice, I will heed those and keep practicing.
main vault
yeah kinda hard to answer without specifics, thats just a general thing
left hatch
we can give more info than just general advice
placid oar
Sorry about it, cos it was the general feedback I got when I was doing TOS19
My healer gave me a feedback that I seem to be trucked more than other tanks
left hatch
something like "your damage absorbed from IP is much lower than other warriors i've played with" is workable
placid oar
I am fairly new and was a dps when I started wow. Thought itâs time I go tank since I canât really push io without a fixed group
I see
placid oar
I died to the 2nd and 3rd boss
One each
But the 2nd was more of the group not baiting the spit with me
left hatch
hmmm 2nd boss doesn't have much in the way of tank damage
just the AA from the snek and her babies
placid oar
Yea we died to explosions heh
left hatch
oh rip
main vault
2nd can get messy if its yolod
placid oar
So that boss was not really on me
left hatch
and 3rd boss is a group effort of everyone helping to soak
placid oar
I thought to myself that it must be my rotations
Thrash pack wise, I also died once to those elementals that zaps to tele. Sorry I dunno the name
left hatch
that boss is pretty standard, it can help if you tank him on the stairs or in the corner
placid oar
Okay got it, I was tanking him in the middle Morrison
left hatch
but if you do that you either lose dps or you personally can't help soak (the boss is one of the few in the game that can parry)
placid oar
Will adjust
left hatch
few in M+*
placid oar
Ah I see
left hatch
but it also helps with your healer if they're saya resto druid or shaman
for their ground hot
placid oar
Apologies again for the general question, will try again when I can and ask more specific questions
My healer was a holy paladin
left hatch
np, just easier to point you in hte right direction the more info we have (:
placid oar
Okay đ
I was just a blur heh, cos I felt really bad like I can do better and perhaps helped to time that key.
Have a lovely day!
left hatch
gl
foggy fractal
My fellow prot warrior bros. After all the advice I got over the last few days, I can now clear a 17 with ease! Just gotta learn better routes and stuff.
You guys are great.
amber siren
mortal brook
sick sentinel
undone sun
slow matrix
Is simming as a Tank worth?
scenic hollow
Itâs never not worth, but the value is much less than on a dps class imo.
ornate magnet
do you guys use anima at all?
mortal brook
not at all
left hatch
You can only sim for dps purposes
but that being said, aside from trinkets, your best dps set is likely also damn close to your 'tankiest' set
or at least the difference is going to be so negligible you won't notice it unless you're pushing into 20 keys
unreal parrot
@ornate magnet anima is for tanks who want to do big AoE without having to use their brains
Which we already do with Avatar and Clap
Therefore, VoP major
chilly brook
@slow matrix simming is almost always worth it, if you can be doing more damage as a tank and you're not in danger of dying you should be. And if you need more survivability chances are it's a breakdown either in your own play or your groups play. If its neither then the next thing you would look at is trinkets or corruption effects that would boost your survival
cosmic canyon
I disagree on the priorities. đ
ionic fern
Which ones?
cosmic canyon
I'd rather pull faster/bigger if I don't run risk of dying focusing on defensive traits, corrupts and secondary stats. Than to optimize my damage output and if I "run a risk of dying" blame playstyle or my group..
So yeah, if I, even though I am adapting my playstyle to be very careful, and not doing any extra shenanigans, no wipes and no downtime.
If I in that case don't time the key, well only then should I try to "do more damage" as a priority.
Up until that point it's all about survival and having room for error and margins for mistakes, because mistakes will happen and happen in every key. The "key" is to not have the mistakes being fatal or cause very costly wipes.
left hatch
If you were completely sacrificing your survivability id agree with you
but an optimal damage setup has a negligible loss to survivability
cosmic canyon
Everyone is free to play their tank their way. But I'm not afraid to speak up in the matter to give some nuance to the overwhelming dps focus in this discord.
left hatch
since the vast majority of your tankyness comes from how you play, and a handful of very impactful slots like trinkets and your shield
stark ruin
Well, the base toolkit is stronger defensively than most other classes' toolkiz
left hatch
and in the case of prot warriors theres a huge overlap between your 'dps' build and your tanky build
still pagoda
Everyone is free to play their tank their way
Yet this way may be so suboptimal that it will only hinder you in a long run
left hatch
you still shoot for 3 BoM and 1 DC
UF and OP are extemely strong in both cases
talents are the same
still pagoda
no one is free from the strive for perfection and big DEEEEEEEEPS
sweet summit
I guess taking IF over HoD etc
left hatch
eh even then with a 475 shield id still prio MS
ionic fern
It's really not a "overwhelming dps focus" @cosmic canyon .
Protection warrior kit works really well together right now with our "standard" build of AM/BV.
Playing OFFENSIVELY is giving you the best defensive value through AM.
Things like BoM/DC/OP/UF will provide you with both defensive & offensive values while things like Gemhide/Carapace will provide you only with a really insignificant defensive value in most situations.
still pagoda
^
left hatch
beyond that you talk about having a margin of error like rolling a CC over OP will save you from something catastrophic
it won't
still pagoda
wut?
left hatch
very few picks that deviate from an offensive build except maybe Nzoth trinket
still pagoda
there is any other use to Shockwave other than mass interrupt of many spell casts?!
left hatch
will truly save you from a scuffed pull
left hatch
^ that or to fill SB downtime
still pagoda
- it's CD is really low with IT1
left hatch
you can also still do MDI style pulls in like 17's and 18's running full TD as well
like the limiting factor on pulls isn't going to be your survivability
itll be unavoidable aoe or interrupts
still pagoda
next week is not for such pulls tho
cosmic canyon
You can do a lot of things, that doesn't mean it's optimal.
ionic fern
Okay, lets talk specifics. What do you think is "saving" you or letting you do bigger pulls @cosmic canyon ?
cosmic canyon
What I think?
ionic fern
Yes.
Are there any specific traits or corruptions that you think are letting you pull bigger?
cosmic canyon
Well we can take the first pull in freehold as an example of a "big pull"
ionic fern
Okay, sure.
still pagoda
TD beach
much better example
since it is 5-6 packs at the same time
and not just 3
cosmic canyon
I'll just post my comments with some "gaps" and thought jumps you'll have to follow on without making insane assumptions like earlier today "kiting Rezan" meant running away from him the entire time, rather than actually playing the pursuit mechanic as its intended.
So assuming the first pull in freehold. Vop major & 3x bom is the play according to the discord
Could it be so that you'd actually have more value running another major, say cns and 2x darkness traits instead? You kite around the room reducing damage intake and all mobs except the enforcer can be ccd.
///
You split the pull cause you've tried the key before and 50% of the time given these affixes you die doing all thee packs at once. Instead in this split pull you do more relative damage to your dps, but actually less dps than you did in the example above. Where you took a different approach to the pull size given you had higher survivability over an extended duration of time.
Can just for semantics assume that in example one you run defensive corrupts and in example two, run TD.
modern brook
Why are we discussing adding time to the only content in the game with a time limit????
brittle owl
đ¤
still pagoda
Why are we discussing adding time to the only content in the game with a time limit???? [2]
left hatch
theres a lot of 'insane' assumptions being made here
still pagoda
CnS major is mostly worthless. This root won't even work if you have anyone with 30%=> slows
cosmic canyon
I'm aware karton.
hallow phoenix
Including sphere of suppression slow
modern brook
I want things dead fast because bosses take 6 years on tyr week and stuns dr. Adding time to ur pulls doesnt help with either of tbise
cosmic canyon
Obviously you don't play sphere with cns major
left hatch
yah thats one of them is noone in your group has a 30% slow
still pagoda
adding time to your pulls adds a substantial risk of running out of SB charges and running into problems
left hatch
^ or healer running out of mana
still pagoda
faster clear speed = less incoming damage
brittle owl
đ° several people are typing
hallow phoenix
Most of the damage in that initial 3 pull is blockable damage, that 3 pack really shouldnt be scary
left hatch
being out of combat is a 100% damage reduction
still pagoda
@brittle owl welcome to #protection - The 4chan of Skyhold!
modern brook
being out of combat is a 100% damage reduction
@left hatch
left hatch
usually the answer to a hard pull is not 'how can i prolong this' its 'how can i get out of this as soon as possible'
modern brook
New meta
brittle owl
đ ya sure
@cosmic canyon how long does that first freehold pull last for your group btw
ionic fern
Okay, so first things first : It's a game and you are allowed to use w/e you want since it's your gametime.
The suggestion of VoP major is a "general" suggestion for the whole dungeon not just for a specific pull.
If we take the first pull in FH as in your example, you are in most affixes/key level not in a danger of dying at all.
Most of the damage is blockable with the only "hard hitter" being the poisons or standing in the grenades.
Poison is mostly dealt with by the healer so that's a non-issue and grenades you can just avoid.
In my experience kiting that pull is not needed unless the affix requires it (bolstering at the end/necrotic to reset).
You can stay in that pull for a long time, especially since it's usually done with Bloodlust meaning you can chain SB->SB->SB->LS->SB etc together for a 40+ Seconds of SB usage (as i said earlier majority of that damage is blockable) and on top of that you have DS/SW.
left hatch
you're also making the assumption that with your kiting you won't lose threat to your dps
and with combusting fire mages, UH dks etc thats a very real danger
hallow phoenix
ret paladins
still pagoda
^% We're not in Legion
modern brook
Or that kiting wont completely gimp your dps ala taking shit out of dnds
left hatch
and if your dps are already pumping like that.... why even kite?
still pagoda
400% threat/DPS ratio is gone
brittle owl
its not
brittle owl
aah mb
left hatch
for 40s of ava
still pagoda
its not
@brittle owl it's 150% since BFA prepatch
cosmic canyon
You completely missed my point.
brittle owl
adds another 10% threat gen
hallow phoenix
doesnt everyone get that 10% threat gen or is it only tanks
left hatch
then please elaborate
brittle owl
so it's close to like 200something %
hallow phoenix
per neck node thingy
brittle owl
only tanks
hallow phoenix
Is that why standard earth ele takes forever to get mobs off me :(?
brittle owl
potato potato
left hatch
so catchup tanks wouldn't be gimped threat wise
still pagoda
adds another 10% threat gen
@brittle owl
Wait wut?!
Didn't know that since i returned only 3.5 weeks ago(After a 10 months break, and there was no neck nodes and essences back then)
modern brook
Yeah it was cause dps was ripping off tanks every iris lol
brittle owl
neck boosts threat gen either way
modern brook
Too much threat generated too fast
cosmic canyon
Ok I'll make it very simple then..
Scenario 1 pull all at once: only doable with defensive traits
Scenario 2 do two separate pulls, have higher relative dps but actually less dps than the previous example.
These are two very real dilemmas you face as a push group not only in the first pack on freehold.
left hatch
but your scenario is fundamentally flawed
brittle owl
đ¤
left hatch
in that the pull is doable without defensive traits
modern brook
Consider scenario 3
brittle owl
you do realize
modern brook
Pull everything with lust and avatar
left hatch
and scenario 2 is a band-aid solution that makes the pull more difficult
brittle owl
that the only defensive optimization worth currently
still pagoda
Scenario 1 pull all at once: only doable with defensive traits Doable with TD10 and cloak %any%
hallow phoenix
Why would overall dps be less if you pulled more? You'd have bigger CDs (lust, avatar, etc) up for more mobs
Including your DPSers cds
brittle owl
that defensive optimization comes in really high keys
outside of the scope of 99% of the playerbase
left hatch
^ and even then
left hatch
those defensive optimizations are for certain select 1-shots
brittle owl
which would get better results from just playing better and optimizing offensively
left hatch
not for mass pulls
brittle owl
they are for mass pulls as well
ionic fern
So, @cosmic canyon i actually have a FH log (granted i was using Lucid major in this).
it's a +19 Fort/bursting/volcanic, we did the big pull at the start, this is the first 30s HP for me:
As you can see it's at minimum 50%.
brittle owl
but it's a very sparse niche
ionic fern
This is the healing i was doing at the same time (notice the healer healing).
left hatch
the limiting factor on pulls in 99% of circumstances isn't your survivability. its the groups/interrupts
brittle owl
^
modern brook
I'm fairly certain
ionic fern
And this is the damage.
brittle owl
group interrupts/stuns/healer awareness of damage profiles
modern brook
That @cosmic canyon s point,, after careful consideration, is that gearing defensively let's you double and triple pull more often outside of lust
Or rather thay it would
Not so much that gearing defensively would allow you to pull freehold opener
left hatch
but its also not really a valid point
brittle owl
that breakpoint of "gearing defensively to enable certain types of pulls"
is met by just attaining a high ilvl
left hatch
since the differences in 'gearing defensively' in his example so far is CnS major
ionic fern
And that was done with my "normal" gear of a ton of TD and 3xBoM/1xDC/2xHoD.
modern brook
I dont agree either, but I just wanna understand where hes coming from
left hatch
so in order to not misrepresent him, wed need to let him explain what he qualifies as defensive vs offensive picks
modern brook
I'll admit o put damage ahead of everything
I look at devestator and have to remind myself that booming voice is still more damage in keys
hallow phoenix
I think this can all be simplified by what Morrison suggested: a concrete list of defensive gearing options vs the standard
And I think it's worth mentioning there are huge vers % sets that are sometimes used in things like +24s
then we can have an actual conversation instead of freehold hypotheticals
cosmic canyon
Some of your arguments in here makes me all but moist wanting to explain it further.
Vers isn't the only alternative.
ionic fern
Just tell us what do you consider "defensive options"?
hallow phoenix
never said it was
ionic fern
As in..what in specifically are you using as your Defensive options?
Which corruption?
Which Azerite?
left hatch
ik that @warm plinth makes me all moist too â¤ď¸
ionic fern
Which essenceS?
hallow phoenix
not even subtle about it anymore morrison
cosmic canyon
Dude I literally just told you?
modern brook
U said Cns, but not with sphere
cosmic canyon
An example.. Of just that
hallow phoenix
CnS major was it?
cosmic canyon
You're going in a circle
modern brook
Because u havent answered the original question
left hatch
CnS major is his only concrete example of a 'defensive'
hallow phoenix
You said CnS major and 2x HoD. We already recommend HoD heavily
so that just leaves CnS major
Which is useless on bosses and certain mobs (zul)
left hatch
and also provides significantly less defensive value than VoP unless you plan on kiting every pull
hallow phoenix
Unless i missed you saying something else
chilly brook
@cosmic canyon sorry chief but especially for warrior you should be doing as much damage as you possibly can because the large bulk of your defensive capabilities are baseline to begin with AND playing OPTIMALLY in terms of DAMAGE is also helping you defensively
still pagoda
^
hallow phoenix
The optimal damage rotation (in aoe) is damn near the optimal survival rotation
chilly brook
Yep...
still pagoda
@chilly brook we are trying to tell him this for 2 days in a row by now
cosmic canyon
I respect your opinion griff. But I disagree
left hatch
lets let him finish his defensive picks
still pagoda
left hatch
(:
still pagoda
(:
chilly brook
You can disagree and respect my opinion but it honestly sounds like an excuse because you cant be bothered to press your buttons tbh
left hatch
i mean... what griff said isn't an opinion
ionic fern
Okay, please just tell us your defensive setup @cosmic canyon .
It's not for a witch hunt but i'm geniuenly interested in it.
You mentioned CnS major and HoD so far.
left hatch
the optimal rotation is best both offensively and defensively
chilly brook
Because that's really what doing damage as a tank comes down to is just pressing your buttons
still pagoda
Press your buttons, nuke that pack
Strike hard! STRIKE FAST!
brittle owl
if you have logs @cosmic canyon that would serve as a pretty good example of what you mean by your gearing strategy
mental scarab
What is this defensive you are talking about đđđ dont we use lucid just to troll healers in higher keysđ¤
đ¤Š
still pagoda
with speed and power unsurpassed
mental scarab
/sarcasm
still pagoda
left hatch
it just so happens that the buttons you press to make the biggest numbers also generates the most rage the fastest
which is defensively the ideal
nothing opinion in that
brittle owl
hey, maybe he does big brain plays we didn't take into account
logs would showcase that
left hatch
i just wanna know what his defensive picks are ):
im waiting for a 3 stack of bloodsport
modern brook
L e e c h
chilly brook
Oh you right man, that's why the MDI prot warriors use the same traits and essences
ionic fern
Lets not undermine him. This is not to bad mouth him but rather educate/help.
left hatch
tbf MDI is a bit off from live
chilly brook
On those nutty super dangerous pulls
modern brook
Yeah
brittle owl
if you can definitively show a pull that 3xBloodsport enabled, after exhausting every other possibility available
chilly brook
Not saying its the same
left hatch
and yeh mb mwahi, been trying to have a discussion and gets specifics on his argument
left hatch
since were jumping to conclusions about his point (im guilty of that too)
brittle owl
đš
chilly brook
He's had plenty of time to give specifics
left hatch
i gotta rp as a blood dk man, don't hate
chilly brook
Lol
left hatch
roll that victory rush talent too
modern brook
I run bloodsport to top both meters tbh
left hatch
its mah deathstrike (:
modern brook
3x bs, 3x dc
chilly brook
I'm probably going a little too hostile but spreading misinformation does that to me
brittle owl
being toxic goes hand in hand with having the name Matt tbh
still pagoda
brittle owl
speaking out of experience
left hatch
eh imo theres nothing wrong with wanting a 'safe' build esp if yo'ure a new tank
chilly brook
Facts though @brittle owl
ionic fern
@cosmic canyon would you please provide the example of what you consider your "defensive setup" if you wish to continue this topic.
Azerite traits:
Essences:
Corruption:
left hatch
BUT. im concerned what he defines as safe picks
still pagoda
being toxic goes hand in hand with being a Russian WoW player @brittle owl
left hatch
cause some are traps like Anima
still pagoda
basically me)
modern brook
With being russian*
brittle owl
^
maiden ravine
oof
chilly brook
The problem is our safe picks are also the optimal damage picks lol
left hatch
with being a wow player *
brittle owl
ruski kaput
maiden ravine
I disappointed people by trying to DPS on my DK
still pagoda
with being a wow player * [2]
maiden ravine
I'm clearly meant to just be a tank
still pagoda
Đ´Đ°-Đ´Đ°
brittle owl
chilly brook
I need to learn Russian
brittle owl
very easy
modern brook
My favorite past time is applying as a druid dps then being put in the range stack on nzoth and then being kicked for playing feral
brittle owl
drink vodka till your vision blurs
chilly brook
So I can meme on people without them knowing what I'm saying
modern brook
So I understand where you're coming from kyle
brittle owl
then just yell cyka blyat idi nahui davai denghi
chilly brook
Cheeki breeki
maiden ravine
doesn't help that the best stats for blood dk are opposite of what their dps specs want
left hatch
but thats the point i don't get with this whole topic... is the only real difference between 'dps' and 'def' is your corruption and maybe a diff trinket pick
brittle owl
there are no best stats for bdk doe
maiden ravine
unlike warrior where haste is pretty nice for all 3 of our specs
brittle owl
đ¤
left hatch
everything else is identical
brittle owl
they're all the same
maiden ravine
Eh, don't they slightly prefer vers
chilly brook
@left hatch my point exactly lol
modern brook
If verse is ur best stat ur class is a nerd
brittle owl
they prefer vers because its the only one that also gives ehp
modern brook
That's my hot take
brittle owl
which is the biggest weakness of blood
still pagoda
damage
brittle owl
outside of wanting ehp, they're all p equal
left hatch
don't they like haste because it gives "more control" over rotation and cds? havn't touched bdk since legion
still pagoda
undone sun
everyone likes verse, so if verse is your highest, you don't have a lot going for you
brittle owl
also that ^
chilly brook
Haste bumps rune regen iirc
maiden ravine
BDK gets 10% haste baseline, they don't really need more
undone sun
đ¤
modern brook
Bloods weakness is not being able to be good at things without being better than anything else by a mile at it
brittle owl
all the haste blood needs is at leas -4%
modern brook
So they just get nerfed a lot
maiden ravine
you don't get many more DS from a lot of haste
chilly brook
Idk I like having more runes
left hatch
their gcd cap due to runes regen must be a lot lower than in legion
cause in legion you stacked that shit so you could do a tone of heartstrikes
in between marrowrends
and that gave a BUNCH extra rp
chilly brook
I notice on my dk when the wrathion trink is up and when it's not
left hatch
plus have damn close to 100% uptime on VB
brittle owl
you didn't stack haste even in legion after like, 7.2 or some shit
left hatch
good times
chilly brook
In terms if self sustain
brittle owl
it's a false sense of value
just let the fact that only 3 runes can regen at a time
sink in
about "hĂŚst"
chilly brook
I'm also just not a blood dk main so my opinion or experience is very miot
chilly brook
Moot*
left hatch
which is... kinda a bad design tbh
maiden ravine
that's what I was trying to say, but didn't know how to word it, but yeah, you don't get a lot of runes from a bunch more haste unfortunately.
chilly brook
Go play BrM
brittle owl
classes in general having dead globals is bad times
left hatch
oh i did s1 and 1/2 of 2
left hatch
feels worse having Lust only buff your RJW (:
undone sun
gcd locked đ
left hatch
big value
maiden ravine
I like having time to move and watch the things around me and keep tabs on my party without also having to press buttons constantly
chilly brook
I actually hate lust on RjW