protection

[brittle owl]

and keeping glimmer up

[maiden ravine]

At least they aren't quite as scary to heal as blood

[brittle owl]

you don't need to touch em

with blood it's the same, albeit you need to watch their RP bar

if it's full, don't touch

if it's empty and they're not kiting

start sweating

[maiden ravine]

Blood gets to 10% and death strikes to full while I have my finger on loh

[brittle owl]

watch RP bar not health 👌

[sterile fern]

Hey guys, I'm struggling with my trait decisions. What would you pick for m+, tanking 19+ keys?

I understand that my combinations are somewhat shitty as the ideal setup would be triple bastion, one deafening crash two heart of darkness right?

[maiden ravine]

One DC and then just highest ilvl

BoM if you can get it

[brittle owl]

480 475 and the HoD piece for the helm

it's kinda straightforward

not much choice to be ahd

[sterile fern]

makes sense. What about blood rite vs bloodsport and azerite veins vs heed my call?

[brittle owl]

bloodrite and heed my call

bloodsport is trash

azerite veins is trash

[sterile fern]

azerite veins used to be good right?

[brittle owl]

it never was good

it was just percieved as good coming from legion

[maiden ravine]

So, I had a moment of confusion last week in KR. A mythic mage told me to pull all 4 in the room before first boss. I read that as all 4 packs. Nope, they meant just the first two packs for a total of 4 mobs.

[sterile fern]

gotcha. And for the head would you go unstable or heed? Secondaries are kind of highly valued right?

[brittle owl]

crit is good allround, gives parry and also a dps increase

heed has no defensive upside

it'd sim tbh

[sterile fern]

thx a ton

[brittle owl]

(would prob go for unstable if the difference is small)

[maiden ravine]

I'm so excited to tank this week

[brittle owl]

big dam pog

[maiden ravine]

I wanna do freehold in 3 pulls

No shitty sang, bursting, bolstering, explosive to slow anything down

[brittle owl]

which boss is out this week

[maiden ravine]

Not sure

[brittle owl]

if harpooners are out

it's time to fucking zoom

[maiden ravine]

Junkyard would be fun too

Workshop is fine for 15s, but man I hate third boss on tyrannical

Sleep time

[brittle owl]

i have 0 clue of what to do in junkyard still

only did like, 2 keys all season

[real snow]

urgh worked hard to get titan and i get shit 475 shoulders with rubbish traits, i got shit chest last time with shit traits, the only good thing is the ilvl increase. and 4 rings in a row now from weekly chest - i mean cant you give me something better !

[ruby nexus]

I got vial with socket from weekly, is it good? Other options are 460 vita, 465 block, 460 scale and 465 fang?

[strong forum]

Vita + block/scale for m+

Vial is relatively useless

[wintry ermine]

I got with socket from chest 😦

[strong forum]

Unluck

[hasty quest]

I got jews howl from chest, how is he ?

[brittle owl]

not bad

not great either

vial useless what???

it's stronk af

not fang levels, but still strong

if you don't wanna fiddle with fang i'd use that and a passive trinket of your choice

[keen crescent]

i have rank 5 td with 56 corruption is it too much for m+ tanking?

[remote tusk]

Will depend on if you have much room for running or saving spell reflect for delusion and hoping that you dont get more than 1 to spawn 😄

Try it.

[keen crescent]

i usually stun the horrific thing that comes to me but i wonder how much eye gonna do damage to me

gonna try with 12

[real snow]

vita rezan or scale for m+ ?? all around 460/465

[amber siren]

vita

[real snow]

and the 2nd one ?

[ionic fern]

I'd do vita/Scale.

[brittle owl]

eye damage is mostly whatever

and you can also get out of it fairly easily with very minor exceptions

told dagor is probably the only dungeon where eye would be annoying to get out of

[real snow]

scale is 460, rezan is 465 with bit more str and haste over 15 sec, does the scale proc more ?

[brittle owl]

scale is 50-60% uptime

[ionic fern]

Scale has a very high uptime yes.

[real snow]

cool thx

[sick sentinel]

I got an useless 475 shield

from boss

with racing pulse

[ionic fern]

😒

Imagine getting shields from anywhere

[brittle owl]

imagine being that bad tbh

[real snow]

im tempted to shell out 700k on a 475 boe with 1% EV

i mean i will never do ill'gnoth mythic

[sick sentinel]

get the cheapest 475 shield you can get

and then cleanse it

[real snow]

I have a 460 already, from illgnoth so only a 475 will do and you dont get haste verse from mythic chest

cheapest is 700k

unless someone in trade will pop up

[lavish grove]

should i take unstable catalyst or a second brace for impact

[sweet summit]

BfI

[worthy linden]

is siphoner 2 worth keeping?

[sweet summit]

if its the ony other corruption you have and you have space in your corruption budget, yeah
if not no

leech isnt very strong

[worthy linden]

yeah thats what i thought

i have infinite stars 3 on my weapon already

siphoner puts me over 50 corruption

gonna just cleanse

[brittle owl]

👀

honestly, that infinite stars on weapon you could cleanse as well if it's your only 475 weapon

like, it's only good in a few choice fights in the raid

in m+ it's completely useless

[strong forum]

^

[half lichen]

Quick quesiton for a dumb DK player: Does Vision Major Avatar procs extent the normal Avatar?

[lofty widget]

yep

[tender berry]

hi how are Filthy Transfusion vs Iron Fortress defsives ?am i gimping my self by taking Filthy Transfusion

[half lichen]

ty

[lofty widget]

IF gives you an extra 1k block on a 480 piece, which is about 10 ilvls on your shield, so i'd go with that defensive wise

[tender berry]

super thx

[brittle owl]

filthy transfusion is a straight up gimp 9 times out of 10 yes

[jagged stump]

Any thoughts about this shield? Which bosses to use it on and which ones not, the shield itself is not that great right?

[brittle owl]

the shield itself is worse than an equal ilvl counterpart

IS you can use on HC Xanex, mythic and heroic shadhar, mythic wrathion (if you have abnormally long kill times), and that's about it 🤷‍♂️

myth nzoth could work since the fight is extra long so you're basically guaranteed to have 10 stacks on him going into p4

but it's a big question mark there

[jagged stump]

Thanks for the input @brittle owl 🙏

I have a TD rank 2 and a combi EV 2 that does a lot for me, I was trying thinking to put on the new shield combo tonight on those bosses you mentioned to see how good it performs.

What kill time would be 'long enough' for IS to proc?

When I sim it even on a 5 min fight it procs.

Maybe that is long? 😉

[brittle owl]

longer than 5 minutes is a good benchmark

like, if a fight is less than that, even if it's pure ST

don't bother

[rose oar]

hi guys i'm new sar prot ( my first tank tho ! ) what do you use for the route on MM+ (i mean before + 10)

?*

[strong forum]

Ye I ran td2 + EV2 for the longest aswell, it's solid dps

Kinda regret cleansing my EV2 on Shield now actually

Don't have good filler corruptions

[brittle owl]

EV is pretty solid

the consistency is underrated AF

[strong forum]

Ye but I got td1 on weapon

So I was over budget

[left hatch]

VoP major, and some combo of CnS, Sphere, Lucid, Str of Warden as minors

damage corruptions

[strong forum]

Question

Why do people say mm+

When it's just m+

[left hatch]

Rezan, Dargonscale, Vita, Butchers Block trinks

get 1xDC and 3xBoM traits

and run 1x23x11 talents

there you go you have the right info to go from +2 all the way to like +19

oh statline

ilvl>haste>crit>verse>mast

exception to the ilvl rule is trinkets and rings (and corrupted gear is worth dropping ilvl for as well sometimes)

there you go NOW you're ready

[strong forum]

That's a crash course if I've ever seen one

[lapis sonnet]

What is 1x23x11, got a link to read about that?

[dim prairie]

Hello, sorry for my English, I am new playing with the warrior and I have been looking at warrior guides, and I do not know what statistics to bring, because I saw, ilvl up and down and that is for raid, and for dungeon, ilvl haste and critic , but then other people tell me no, so I don't know what stats to bring or anything

[final mist]

Ilevel

[robust galleon]

So @left hatch we get more defensive ability’s out of these than we do running like sigil or nzoth trinket

[left hatch]

in lower keys yes

@lapis sonnet its the talents you choose, corresponds to what # in each row it is, if you wanna know more about why you run them go look at the icy veins guide or something

@dim prairie Ilvl>Haste>Crit for M+
Ilvl>Haste>Verse for raid
unless yo'ure pushing well into the 20 range of keys these stat weights are accurate

[lapis sonnet]

Ahh I was thinking it was some old school notation from like classic days of talent choice.

Thanks!

[dim prairie]

Then Morrison ilvl gaste and crit to m+ +15+16+17 are okkey ?

[left hatch]

yes

[lofty sequoia]

Hey guys. Hope someone can help me out a little bit here, but I'm doing prot warrior as alt recently.. But I genuine think I take very much dmg!

I'll link my rio page for gear inspect etc, if anyone got some suggestions feel free to dm me or just give me a hint 🙂 https://raider.io/characters/eu/tarren-mill/Estiwar In advance thank you

[left hatch]

unless you get to like 22/23 you don't need to stack verse

[final mist]

Io doesn’t help us much figuring out if you’re taking too much damage or not

Link a log

[dim prairie]

Thanks so much @left hatch !!

[brisk ferry]

tbf he does have a 445 shield, that will help

[lofty sequoia]

@final mist Can I link log for a dungeon run? Cause not doing prot in raids

[sweet summit]

yes, dungeon logs work

[lofty sequoia]

Allright, imma try see if I can figure out how that works

[tropic fox]

mh, racing pulse 3 or echoing void 3 ? 😄

[sweet summit]

[strong forum]

EV3 for dmg
Racing pulse for survivability ( which you never need it for). @tropic fox

Also depending on corruption budget ofc

[tropic fox]

yeah, i have to cleanse one or the other

i will chose RP to cleanse

[modern brook]

👋

[dim prairie]

And srry, which of the essences would have to take??

to m+

[left hatch]

VoP Major, and some combo of CnS, Lucid, Sphere or Str of Warden minors

[dim prairie]

srry but for my english, which its cns? or str?

[left hatch]

strenght of hte warden

and conflict and strife

[dim prairie]

oh nice thaaanks so much! ❤️

[flat jackal]

Does it matter where you get hit from by the thing from beyond? In my last run, When it hit me from the front it did 150k and when it hit me from the back it hit me for 950k.

[strong forum]

It's always 40%

So you got hit with tankbuster debuff

And then by thing

Only explanation why it did so much

[hushed cobalt]

Also void buffet in visions (increases shadow damage taken)

[left hatch]

also be very careful on skittra (:

[cinder fern]

Or the stacking Shadow debuff on Skitra, yeah

[left hatch]

i got hit for 4m by one

[cinder fern]

I learned that one the hard way too

[left hatch]

because i did not know haha

[frail idol]

is there a pawn string available for prot warrior?

[brisk ferry]

pawn is dead, uninstall it

just go sim top gear

[left hatch]

yah pawn is bad for 2 big reasons, stat weights change with literally any small upgrade or change to your character so a 'string' for one would be constantly shifting and would be super personal, and you also can't sim defensively... so any numerical value from the string would be for dps only

so theres no point to even use pawn anymore since you have to resimm yourself after every upgrade/potential upgrade anyway

[sweet moon]

hey i got the anodized deflectors (mechagon wrist) in my weekly chest today are they any good? currently wearing 360 ones so it would be 15 ilvl upgrade

[left hatch]

worth if its like your highest ilvl

but the effect isn't amazing

[lime wing]

Overwhelming Power or Crystalline Carapace?

Gemhide or Impassive Visage?

They're all S tier, accoriding to Icy Veins

[left hatch]

Crystalline (and all the "tank" options) of that row are a hard pass

OP is the best trait in that row

close second being Unstable Flame

and Impassive Visage>Resounding Protection>Gemhide

[lime wing]

Ok, thank you! 🙂

Another question: Icy Veins ranks Heart of Darkness pretty high but says to always stay below 20 corruption, how that makes sense?

[sweet summit]

HoD is very strong
running <=39 corruption is safe

[sick sentinel]

Less than 60 if you are a chad

[warm plinth]

It says to stay under 20 until you’re comfortable and used to the fights, then you can go higher. It doesn’t say never go above 20 :p

[south osprey]

ive checked a few wowanalyzers when i have to tank raid on the alt, and i notice it says i miss a lot of casts of shield slam, thunder clap etc.. I know the priority of things and actively keep it all in mind but i legit just don't have the GCDs to press it all, am I missing haste?

with Into the Fray fully stacked im at about 41%, not sure what it is unbuffed

[left hatch]

you should have more than enough haste to pull it off fine

[south osprey]

huh maybe im a monkey

[left hatch]

esp if you played War in say classic

its easy to autopress deva

when other shit is up

[south osprey]

probably putting too much priority on the free devastates

yeah ok we typed that at the same time its def the problem

[left hatch]

oh thatll do it too, free revenge is after SS,TC

[south osprey]

oh sorry i meant revenge

[left hatch]

and idk if you played in s2 but TC is no longer prio in ST

even with avatar up

[south osprey]

i think youre right on both fronts, probably can fix it by taking devastator and trying to forget about revenge a little

ty

[left hatch]

if your'e just alt raiding then devastator is fine

yo'ull lose a lotta output on carapace and hivemind but

it can help

but never run it in M+

[hallow phoenix]

Put a dagger on and you can't cast revenge

:^)

[left hatch]

and honestly just put yourself in the mindset that yo'ure a thicc dps

your optimal survival rotation is the same as trying to pump dps

so if you train yourself to hit the button that does the biggest numbers, by extension you'll be playing for optimal rage gen

[south osprey]

except spending rage on ignore pain instead of revenge

cause that def pumps more

[left hatch]

true

[hallow phoenix]

It's bad practice while you're learning warrior though

[south osprey]

prot warrior pretty fun as an alt though gotta admit, lot more nuance in it's current form than other tanks ive played

cannot stand raid tanking though i fall asleep, hes for M+ all the way

[left hatch]

have you seen the changes for shadowlands?

vengeance is looking pretty spicy (:

[hallow phoenix]

[south osprey]

vengeance is dope but my problem is that being on a DH and not playing havoc feels too odd to me

[left hatch]

yah i feel that

but yah if you're doing M+ never take deva

youll really be crippling yourself

just look at it like...

[strong forum]

Vdh might become my main

Low key

[left hatch]

you wouldn't hit demon's bite when Annihilation, or blade dance is up right

so why hit deva when SS or TC is

honestly a LOT of changes are looking fantastic

all the talent stuff they're making baseline

[strong forum]

Prot doesn't change at all it seems

Which isn't bad

[left hatch]

dk and monk i think stood out to me the most for some pretty excite changes

well besides getting WW and execute

[strong forum]

I only looked at vdh and warri

Rest is w/e

[left hatch]

brew gets shuffle back, exploding keg, summoning celestials is baseline now

[strong forum]

What do you mean getting WW and execute

[left hatch]

WW and execute are now baseline abilities for all 3 specs

[strong forum]

Oh kek

That I must've skipped over

That's gonna be weird

[hallow phoenix]

Tclap ww spam here I come

[left hatch]

and going with Venthyr empowers your execute to do shadow damage, and be usable above 80% as well as below

[hallow phoenix]

Reflect and intervene are baseline too

Which is good for arms and fury

[left hatch]

yah... thinking about all the random casts in dungeons like venom bolts in atal

[stiff gate]

I am very interested in the Indomitable change that apparently now has an active component with some kind of healing involved

[left hatch]

more reflects is never bad

[hallow phoenix]

Kyrians get a dwarf racial

[left hatch]

tbh i think the meta pick for prot (as things stand) is gonna be the banner

[thick solstice]

Is overwhelming power the go to inner trait?

[hallow phoenix]

For all warriors you mean

[left hatch]

yes

[sweet summit]

OP and UF are very good

inner traits

[strong forum]

For pve the banner yes, for pvp the root

So I'm fucked

Cuz I wanna go ham in pvp again

[hallow phoenix]

M+ I hope you spear has uses

[thick solstice]

chill, so do you ever pick the defensive inner traits?

[hallow phoenix]

Cause I'm going kyrian

[left hatch]

OP and UF are defensive

[strong forum]

Never

[left hatch]

if yo'ure talking the strictly 'tank' ones then no

[thick solstice]

well ye, thats what i ment

[hallow phoenix]

I don't even know what the defensive inner traits are

[left hatch]

they provide less value (even defensive value) than the others

uhhh garbage mostly

[hallow phoenix]

Winds of war?

[strong forum]

Terrible

[left hatch]

stuff that gives you a tiny amount of armor, a rune that you stand in for hp, a little dodge

[thick solstice]

ye i figured, but always nice to know for a fact 🙂

thanks boys

[hallow phoenix]

My dodge build would like a word nom

Winds + dodge gems

[balmy socket]

any tips for motherlode 3rd boss in hight tyrannical?:d

[left hatch]

don't waste rage on SB, communicate with your healer so that every dot you don't SR they dispel

thats about it

[balmy socket]

okay, thanks

[chrome palm]

that shield upgrade from yesterday was a game changer

completely changed how much damage im taking

block is ridiculous

one thing i did notice is that secondary stat percentages dont add to 100%

[strong forum]

They are independant of each other

[chrome palm]

yeah that's strange. What do they represent?

[strong forum]

How much you have

?

Crit is crit chance

[chrome palm]

percentage is an operator that means "ratio"

haste chance?

i dont understand that

[strong forum]

Haste is an increase

[south osprey]

percent extra haste you have

not that hard

[strong forum]

43% faster

[warm plinth]

Haste is what % the normal cast/cooldown of an ability is changed by

[strong forum]

If you have 43%

[chrome palm]

ahh isee

[strong forum]

You attack 43% faster, cast 43% faster

Versa is how much %more dmg you deal / how much %dmg less you take

Mastery depends on the tooltip what it increases

[chrome palm]

yeah. I saw some tanks that had like 40% haste and 30% mastery

i think mine was like 25% and 25%

[strong forum]

Mastery is different to each spec

Arms has 300-400% mastery if not higher, just cuz it scales something different to other specs

[chrome palm]

i mean for prot

[warm plinth]

Your stat percentages don't actually matter. We go for whatever gear gives us the higher ilevel.

[strong forum]

He didn't understand what the percentages mean

[chrome palm]

^

[strong forum]

Cuz I guess you're new to gaming

Or rpgs

Rather

Or just a math head

[chrome palm]

no i thought it was % of some particular value

[strong forum]

No not at all

Literally
Crit - Crit chance
Haste - Speed increase of attacks and casts
Versatility - Raw %increase / raw %decrease
And then dependant on what mastery actually does

[chrome palm]

its block

[strong forum]

Yes block chance in that matter and attack power increase

[chrome palm]

so i was watching that limit max guy's stream and he was talking about how block has never been as powerful as it is right now, with prot warrior

is that true?

[strong forum]

Yes

[hallow phoenix]

legion tho

[strong forum]

No

[hallow phoenix]

that 88% block reduction

88% 😠

[strong forum]

Block was shit in legion

[chrome palm]

so one could expect prot to maybe get a nerf in shadowland WRT block?

[warm plinth]

85%*

[strong forum]

No

[hallow phoenix]

block was god on a few antorus bosses

[strong forum]

Block was flat 30%

In legion

Block has been reworked for Bfa

[hallow phoenix]

Bastion of the aspects made it more

[strong forum]

To work as it does now

[chrome palm]

i'm obviously new to prot, but the difference from my higher geared brewmaster is insane

[stark sage]

with a artifact trait making it 44%, and crit block doubled it @strong forum

[chrome palm]

like take the Blob obelisk

that guy actually cucks my brew

and he's a complete joke on prot

does nothing

[strong forum]

Yes prot is a god vs physical dmg

[chrome palm]

it's just so much more enjoyable

[strong forum]

Good

[chrome palm]

feels like pressing buttons actually changes the way i can tank things

brew feels like "well hopefully the healer saves me"

or waiting for 35% for the essences to kick in

[analog swift]

higher HPS as prot now

which is most important

[strong forum]

[chrome palm]

brew is?

[strong forum]

Don't listen to what he said

[left hatch]

hps does not matter whatsoever for prot

[chrome palm]

yeah that andy brew guy was getting 100k HPS on his stream

[strong forum]

Dont

[warm plinth]

HPS. Does. Not. Matter.

[sweet summit]

hps does not matter

[strong forum]

My vdh can do 300k hps, am I god now

[chrome palm]

apparently that's a hot-button topic lmao

[hallow phoenix]

Your HPS is also going to be relative to how much damage youre taking (how fast your IP gets chewed through)

[strong forum]

It's a bad topic, it doesn't reflect anything

[chrome palm]

yeh my IP makes me top the meters

[left hatch]

its a bad metric to look at, and a lot of new tanks will fixate on it as the be all end all of tankiness

[warm plinth]

Yes because there are warriors and healers out there who are staring at that healing meter thinking that's why they/their tank is dying.

[left hatch]

and it leads to bad gameplay to inflate your hps meters that fucks your survivability

[chrome palm]

well damage absorbed > damage healed

always

[left hatch]

mitigated*

yes, and thats the core of our kit is negating the damage entirely

[chrome palm]

yeah it was weird doing motherlode on a 11. The last two bosses

[strong forum]

That's pure magic dmg

[chrome palm]

you just have to ignore pain and use the % decrease CDs

yeah

the maut trinket was nice

are there any other fights like that?

i only know of those ones

[hallow phoenix]

shadow of zul

first phase king mechagon

[left hatch]

skittra

[chrome palm]

wait really?

skitra is no physical?

[left hatch]

yup its only the void cast

[chrome palm]

but no other M+?

[strong forum]

Waycrest has alot of magic dmg (comparatively)

Especially bosses

[warm plinth]

Nowhere that you would forego shield block entirely though

[left hatch]

^

hell even 3rd boss in shrine aa's in between casts

[lime wing]

Should I use Formless Void even if I don't need the corruption resistance

?

[left hatch]

if you don't need the resistance use Lucid, Sphere and CnS

[warm plinth]

I wouldn't personally. Unless it was going to take me below 40 or something if I used it (just because why not save the headache if you can)

[chrome palm]

so is lucid major good for motherlode?

to get a ton of IP?

[left hatch]

if yo'ure in 23+ keys yes

otherwise nothing changes

[chrome palm]

but avatar doesnt work defensively without SB

[left hatch]

what

why wouldn't it

[chrome palm]

it increases mastery

[left hatch]

and mastery increases AP

which increases IP

[chrome palm]

ahh

good to know

[lime wing]

if you don't need the resistance use Lucid, Sphere and CnS
@left hatch with VoP major? os CoF?

[left hatch]

with VoP

and you also wouldn't make an entire kit to answer the 1 thing

[strong forum]

Mastery also increases block chance

[left hatch]

because you fuck over the entire rest of the dungeon

[chrome palm]

right we're talking about the magic fights

[left hatch]

just for the end

[chrome palm]

yeah

makes sense

so your weapon ilvl heavily influences IP?

[left hatch]

in very high keys some ppl hearth out and swap talents, but even then youd either go VoP, AuG or maybe Null major

[chrome palm]

because of AP?

[left hatch]

yes

[chrome palm]

damn i gotta loot a better weapon

maybe i'll try to get in a mythic wrathion

[sick sentinel]

I demand my 485 weapon this week

[chrome palm]

from carapace?

[hallow phoenix]

490?

oh no

only the azerite is 490

[strong forum]

Wheres my 500 ilvl legendary TD 10 with only 30 corruption shield

I shall name it bat soup

[chrome palm]

is there a trick to stop healer aggro on workshop pummeller? (boss #1)?

like before he gets smashed once

[hallow phoenix]

pray your healer doesnt go mongo for no reason

and you can taunt and then leap taunt

[chrome palm]

my guildie just pops off from second #1

[hallow phoenix]

to continue bringing it towards yo

[sweet summit]

taunt>ss>tc

[chrome palm]

fight starts, he tranqs

[sweet summit]

spam heroic throw

[warm plinth]

If you taunt and spam heroic throw, it should be enough

[hallow phoenix]

heroic throw actually a very good idea

cause of that bonus threat attached

[chrome palm]

yeah thats a good idea

[warm plinth]

Yep, that's how I do it

[chrome palm]

so taunt + 2 throws?

[sweet summit]

taunt ss tc

then spam throw

[warm plinth]

Literally just spam throw unless he's in melee range of you

No reason not to; it costs nothing and actually still generates good threat since it has a huge multiplier on it

[chrome palm]

how about the first adds after taht fight, the waste processing unit? I can't tell how the cone attack really works. They seems to swivel as they cast it - and then stay in that position

am i supposed to get hit initally - and then dodge?

or is it fully dodgeable?

[warm plinth]

It's really buggy. I've found the most consistent way to dodge is wait til it's like .2 seconds from casting, then sidestep

[chrome palm]

yeah i like move left/right to test the swivel - and then try to move when they lock in place

i always get hit a bit

[warm plinth]

You can fully avoid it if you time it right. But like I said, it's a little buggy. :/

[chrome palm]

but can you also just eat it?

its all physical

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=294290/process-waste

[warm plinth]

No reason to take damage you don't have to take.

[hushed cobalt]

Throw hammer, does it do more threat than a SS or TC?

[warm plinth]

Probably. Never calculated it. It has a 16x threat multiplier on it

[chrome palm]

can you outrange the living wastes? or do you just need to kill 1-2 at a time?

[warm plinth]

Kill them next to an LoS spot

And LoS the explosion

[chrome palm]

that's smart

what about on sanguine?

[sweet summit]

kill them all at once

[sick sentinel]

If you have Td you can literally solo the living wastes whole group Is Los

[warm plinth]

You can do the same thing on sanguine. Honestly quaking is the one that makes it trickier since the LoS spots are fairly limited

[sick sentinel]

Takes like 2 seconds to murder them

[hushed cobalt]

They have a grace period of not moving before they die

[chrome palm]

wait so prot can stand inside the mega drill? that aoe circle that waste processing units cast?

[sick sentinel]

Not recommended but it probably won’t kill you

[sweet summit]

idk but it never deals damage to me when i just stand there

[chrome palm]

its all physical

[warm plinth]

Physical doesn't automatically mean harmless.

[sweet summit]

^

[sick sentinel]

To be clear we still take physical damage

[chrome palm]

but just not melee?

[warm plinth]

Not all physical damage is blockable

[sick sentinel]

Blocking and IP doesn’t get rid of all the damage

Either

[hallow phoenix]

mega drill is blockable and unless in a really high key does next to nothing if you block it

[sweet summit]

o thats why

[warm plinth]

Fun fact: it's also dodgeable

[chrome palm]

ah

[warm plinth]

Mega Drill that is

[sick sentinel]

Alright so stack avoidance

[sweet summit]

[sick sentinel]

I heard dodgeable

[warm plinth]

I blade dance it on my DH when possible to stay on the mob

[sand saffron]

The only thing worth stacking is leech

[hushed cobalt]

Haste to avoidance

[chrome palm]

yeah that would work

[sand saffron]

8% leech in every slot, you heard it here first

[chrome palm]

dodge on the last bos of Tol Dagor is meme

you can just take most of the deadeye

[warm plinth]

It is indeed

My tank and I 2-manned Korgus on a 16 earlier in the season because the group died when he was at like 80%

VDH + HDH

[chrome palm]

do vdh have high dodge?

[warm plinth]

Not really, but they have a lot of self healing

[chrome palm]

brew has an RNG chance to just eat it

and not get the debuff

[warm plinth]

Not really that RNG. You can plan dodges on a brewmaster

[chrome palm]

so for the magic damage bosses we were all talking about earlier, do you hold demo shout for those?

to use as a real CC?

or do you just pop it on CD no matter

[warm plinth]

No real reason to hold it. They're doing the same magic damage the entire fight.

[chrome palm]

like on ilgynoth

[left hatch]

mythic ilgy is a bit of an exception

yeh you wanna delay a few seconds

[chrome palm]

i meant heroic

[left hatch]

no lol

heroic is trivial

[chrome palm]

i get cucked with demo on second eye

i need demo + spell reflect + IP

or maut trink

[left hatch]

well youd presumably be using SR on the 2nd beam or breath anyway

cause no reason not to

[chrome palm]

yeah but SR alone kills me

[left hatch]

right and like i said thats one of the few places youd delay to use it

in every dungeon situation i can think of youd still use it on cd

because the rage gen component of it is just as potent, if not more so, defensively than a 15% dr

[chrome palm]

yeah here's this guy talking about it

https://youtu.be/Xk6LKJY1jHw?t=430

that's why i thought of it

at that timestamp

[left hatch]

go read the 2nd pin

[chrome palm]

yeah i read it

[left hatch]

its all about how making comparisons between high keys and low is dumb

[chrome palm]

it's rads

*for essences

[left hatch]

for everything.

[chrome palm]

so his tip on demo is irrelevant

[left hatch]

yes

[chrome palm]

seeems universal

[left hatch]

because the damage profile of a 10 vs a 25 is miles apart

thats like saying you should do mythic strats in lfr

[chrome palm]

im going for world first LFR though

[left hatch]

then yo'ure actively hurting your team doing mythic strats

[chrome palm]

yeah they LOS with those pillars on the living wastes

how the F are they baiting only 1 explosice leap on KUJO?

[sweet summit]

meld/invis/feign

[left hatch]

i do'nt see how what you linked infers sitting on demo shout at all

[chrome palm]

he says not to

[left hatch]

he literally just said you want to apply it as quickly and often as possible

[chrome palm]

he says pop it off CD

yes

[left hatch]

right...

[chrome palm]

but that's irrelevant bc it's a 20

like you said

[left hatch]

you were linking it as if its evidence to contradict what i was saying

which was to use it on cooldown

so why would you link it

[chrome palm]

i should have prefaced it as contradicting what i was asking, probably

idk just laziness in the linking i guess

[left hatch]

but yah in this case it applies universally

but in cases of like... verse stacking, lucid major, trinket choices etc

what ppl do in 20+'s does not apply to lower keys

because the situations you need to have answers to are night and day

[chrome palm]

yeah makes sense

[left hatch]

thats why you can't just go "oh well Nerfclap did this in a 25 that must mean i should do it in a 13"

[chrome palm]

that's also why some of the dratnos routes are a little annoying

i wish there was a "basic route" thing

like i dont want to play the fear guy with Yazma

but those double honor gaurds are ass

[left hatch]

when you get that high things they are doing are hyperspecialized for the key, affix, group comp, and what pulls they are doing so you need context, and in almost every case that context makes it irrelevent for the majority of the player base

and i havn't checked his routes in awhile but he usually has a basic route

or at least talks about in the paragraph above an easy modification to make it easier

in the case of Atal you have to sac one of your party members if you dont have shadowmeld or play dead

or vanish

and its the blob boss hes fighting with the boss

which way more managable

[chrome palm]

yeah that's easier

underot another tough one

i think it's the spider

[left hatch]

idk if you have a smart melee with you the spider is free as well if the last bos doens't need interrupts

its the fear and tankbuster guy id never pull with a boss

oh oof he recommends fear guy

[chrome palm]

yeah

monkaS

[left hatch]

eh the comment makes sense about how its a big room so just be careful with your positioning

[chrome palm]

he says to position so you run away from the poop on ground

[left hatch]

but you can also really easily modify his route to go for fear and leave spider up

[chrome palm]

well it's that 1 obelisk in that corner

that's sketch

bc the fear will pull the worms

[left hatch]

don't get feared?

its a frontal line ppl shouldn't be getting hit by it

[chrome palm]

3 go out, can they all get dispelled?

i thought it auto goes on ppl

[left hatch]

you don't pull worms in the shadow realm or w/e

[chrome palm]

oh true

you can dodge the fear?

i thought it just goes out on ppl

[left hatch]

i thought you were talking the corrupters

because thats the only time you can be feared into worms

[chrome palm]

yeah i forgot about realm

apparently the nzoth trinket gets the nyalotha extra absorb when in the realm

in M+

[brisk ferry]

it does

[chrome palm]

and for some reason also on the last boss in shrine

[brisk ferry]

it also gets it if you pull an obelisk with final boss

[chrome palm]

when you're in the octopus part

yeah

do yall tend to run the addon that auto-marks casters?

or do you self-mark?

[left hatch]

i have a WA that automarks anything that has a scary interrupt

[chrome palm]

yeah i should enable that

[left hatch]

some ppl use the little mouseover hweel but eh

seconds wasted are seconds you could be 2-3 chesting

[chrome palm]

yeah the mouseover wheel seems nice for markers on the ground

i bet another trick could be a macro for targeting thing from beyond and storm bolting it

[left hatch]

doens't work

[chrome palm]

damn

[left hatch]

they did w/e they did with explosives/totems so you cant macro target it

[chrome palm]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRvMMhBT1xyvECDvAlxXirfLYtgzYZ18vjY3zRyA4LU7NgVg5Vmj-MroMT5W6i94q0aYNodyer0hbZ3/pubhtml#

[hollow agate]

what shield for m+? 465 crit haste socket, or 465 JY shield no socket

[mortal brook]

465 crit haste socket for sure

[hollow agate]

gotcha, wasn't sure if the proc was good

[mortal brook]

JY worst in its ilvl. youll never see the dmg cuz the absorb is gone in half a melee

[hollow agate]

true

[mental scarab]

blood rite the proc rate is it good on that trait

[mortal brook]

in m+ especially. things like explosive even refresh it

[mental scarab]

yea shame that VR dont do that anymore

[mortal brook]

D:

[mild river]

Anyone knows what's the best mythic plus azerith shoulder for prot warrior? I'm saving titanium residuum to buy in some weeks. Thanks in advance 😊

[hallow phoenix]

kraken shell pauldrons most likely

or the mechagon ones, though im not sure what inner traits those have

[sweet summit]

tank buster ones got ewhirl

and moment of glory

[hallow phoenix]

If you already have mechagon chest i'd go for tank buster, else I'd do kraken shell

[mild river]

I have Vexyona mythic chest. I think it's BIS

[hallow phoenix]

Vex chest is very good

[lime wing]

https://i.imgur.com/ykjcFq5.png

Which ones?

[hallow phoenix]

rezan + jes

[strong forum]

id run rezan + sigil

but only cuz of ilvl

[hallow phoenix]

sigil seems overkill and jes should give more damage than sigil

even with 30 ilvl difference

[strong forum]

sure its more dmg every now and again

but its still giga low ilvl

idk

[hallow phoenix]

the sigil has 153 strength over the jes. Either way both trinkets are meh due to ilvl and sigil being sigil

but its basically a strength gem in difference vs on-use vers

[strong forum]

sigil is meh because of the 2min CD

while jes is also 2min CD

[warm plinth]

You're a 2 min CD

[hallow phoenix]

gottem

[strong forum]

damn thats powerful

but 42 is the limit

so id die if you use me on CD

[normal bolt]

Does anyone have any tips for the tank buster guy? right now im taking ALOT of dmg from sprit breaker and i have noidea how to counter it without using a big CD or losing alot of health, not really doable to pull him with the last boss atm

[strong forum]

theres no counterplay

tank it with IP and demo UP

and lose your 50-80% HP

you wont die if you have block up to his melees

[hallow phoenix]

make sure you keep block up after spirit breaker. The 100% damage taken increase sucks too

You should have a cd up for every spirit breaker, using Last Stand as a psuedo-cd if needed. Demo -> SW -> Demo -> LS -> Demo should be enough

worse case scenario you can kite. One heroic leap is enough to cancel the cast

[normal bolt]

i feel like i dont have enough rage to get a IP and a shield block right after it tho

might be using demo wrong in that case

[strong forum]

then youre not pressing your buttons

[hallow phoenix]

demo right away gives you enough rage for an IP

[normal bolt]

i think im holding to tight on my demo

[strong forum]

use it on CD

👏

pls

literally use it on CD

thats how you use it

[normal bolt]

Yeah im just bad

Im only playing like 19s and im pretty new to warrior and tanking overall so thats my excuse for fucking demo up atleast

[strong forum]

🙂

[rocky linden]

Can I assume Resonating Scimitar is better than Fusion Hacker for most things tanking wise?

[mortal brook]

at same ilvl hacker will do more dmg up to a couple targets.

[rocky linden]

Alright, might want the hacker for raids and scimitar for m+ then

[urban briar]

whatz the dream when it comez to corruption?

[mortal brook]

TD

[hallow phoenix]

TD5

atm

[worthy notch]

is crit or vers better for m+?

[hallow phoenix]

generally crit

[worthy notch]

ty

[hallow phoenix]

ilvl over stat distributions though

[warm silo]

Is innefable truth playable?

[hallow phoenix]

depends what else you have

it lets you sometimes spell reflect boss mechanics you cant normally back-to-back reflect

[urban briar]

what would u run for high keys?

[hallow phoenix]

corruption wise?

TD

[mortal brook]

whats high?

[hallow phoenix]

i think in 23+ some people run vers %

[mortal brook]

It's TD till a very high threshold where vers% takes over

if you even have the corruption to stack

[hallow phoenix]

and thats just to survive the bonkers damage

yeah?

[mortal brook]

prevents one shots

get enough vers% and you're basically running around with barkskin~pain supp on

[hallow phoenix]

and in case you were wondering vibe, im starting to do 20s and dont feel any need for vers%

so TD all the way until you dont have to ask what corruption you need 😛

[warm plinth]

@outer dew is all the pain suppression I need ❤️

[outer dew]

@warm plinth can punish me any time

😉

[mortal brook]

🤢

[hallow phoenix]

i think its cute

[warm plinth]

Don't be jealous Steve

[mortal brook]

[jolly coral]

Hello ^^ i've a question, i have Draonscale, Vita and Rezan's Eye

Which is better for M+?

All of them have it on 465 IL

[urban briar]

how much corruption u run 20+?

[sick sentinel]

Under 40 is good

[warm plinth]

Probably Vita and Dragonscale @jolly coral

[jolly coral]

Thx ^^ i thought Rezan was better 😛

[warm plinth]

Probably not a wrong choice between Rezan and Dragonscale tbh. They're pretty similar

[hallow phoenix]

Do you guys run 59 corruption in 20 keys

or is 39 just better for safety

[strong forum]

You can run 59 if you're comfortable enough with tfb

39 is better for safety yes

[hallow phoenix]

that extra rank TD :^)

[sick sentinel]

As you break into 20s it’s not always as simple as “just SR” TFB so if you can’t handle it, probably good to stay under 40

[hallow phoenix]

I might run 39 just for a few of these til i get used to it

have only run 18s up until now but finally found a push group

[lofty widget]

hey, quick question do i gem all sockets with haste or should i do vers/crit at some point

[sweet summit]

haste all the way until like 23s 24s, thats when you start stacking vers if you have to

[undone sun]

2 str, rest haste

[lofty widget]

alright thanks 🙂

[strong forum]

https://i.imgur.com/VzrRh8e.png

Stars T10

im ready

[distant crystal]

getting healed is overrated tbh

[strong forum]

its only 219 corruption

[hallow phoenix]

dont need to be healed if you one shot the boss

also heads up

Pulling harlan isn't ripping the party out of Ny'alotha in freehold

[strong forum]

interesting

(never done it anyway)

[sweet summit]

pulling 3rd boss WS doesnt either it seems

[warm plinth]

You not time I actually use that is for Azerokk

Only time *

Because it can force the adds to target the tank and not DPS

[hallow phoenix]

how do you make it do that

i tried it once and they went on dps nayway

anyway*

[warm plinth]

You have everyone in the void realm stack on boss, then tank pulls

It doesn’t work every time but we’ve had like 2/3 of the time where they’ve all gone on the tank

[distant crystal]

you don't want em on the tank anyway tho

the big brain is the healer goes out first

[rocky linden]

8% leech corruption is as crappy as I think it is, yes?

[sweet summit]

yeah, pretty bad overall

[undone sun]

yes

[distant crystal]

it's even bad for healers

45 corruption for overkill leech lol

[rocky linden]

Is there anything other than TD that I really want to care about?

Not doing any mythic raiding or 20+ keys

[distant crystal]

oozing blood is always sick

but gluck w/ that

[sweet summit]

TD and gushing yeah

[distant crystal]

on lesser tanks i feel like having 1-2 ranks of EV is still decent

for a separate thing that can proc for some snap threat

but lolthreat

[rocky linden]

Cheers. now I just need to learn how to tank then 🙂

[distant crystal]

meanwhile i have exactly 0 TD ranks on my warrior, outside of n'zoth weap for fury

[strong forum]

https://i.imgur.com/qocne3n.png

my VDH corruptions on point 👌

[rocky linden]

Is that a WA?

[distant crystal]

is that a WA?

lol

[sweet summit]

lol

[strong forum]

lol

[rocky linden]

Mine was properly capitalized. Just saying.

[strong forum]

no idea if memeing or not

[rocky linden]

Not memeing, I need that

🙂

[distant crystal]

Not memeing, i need that

🙂

[sweet summit]

im scared

[strong forum]

equipment corruption weakaura

or some shit

since corruption tooltips wont display mine in the eye slot thingy

i have to get this shit WA to flex

[distant crystal]

https://wago.io/A1mkO4Vn_

[strong forum]

the other one

but yes this works too

[distant crystal]

https://wago.io/rRenhVWuP

[strong forum]

ye i think thats the non stolen one

[upbeat crypt]

What's your guys thoughts on protection at first glance in shadowlands?

[strong forum]

pump

[sweet summit]

looks cool

[distant crystal]

i don't have any :p

[undone sun]

no thoughts

[strong forum]

ye me neither

curious to see how execute will play out

thats about it

[sweet summit]

same

[strong forum]

rest is TBD

[sweet summit]

tbd?

[strong forum]

to be determined

[sweet summit]

ah

yeah

[upbeat crypt]

I'm thinking between brew and prot I know it's super far out just wanted opinions of the better players

[distant crystal]

[undone sun]

TETT

Too early to tell

[strong forum]

TETFT

😏

[sweet summit]

what

[strong forum]

use your brain

and imagination

and youll get it

[distant crystal]

Too early to fully tell

[strong forum]

yes... fully ...

[upbeat crypt]

[distant crystal]

ok time for warrior assaults/visions

time for some td pieces

[strong forum]

i got severe3 and stars 2 from mine

[sweet summit]

good luck mate

[strong forum]

in the trash it goes

[distant crystal]

i can't bring myself to cleanse it

so i just don't use it for prot

tho tbh it's not even that great for fury i think

they're all about severe/deadly momentum iirc

[sweet summit]

its alright for fury

[strong forum]

fury

[sweet summit]

shut up fury hater :((

[strong forum]

[undone sun]

imagine not being a one-trick

[strong forum]

im a 1.4 trick

[distant crystal]

i play 7 toons 😮

[strong forum]

and none of em successfully smh

[distant crystal]

i got 33% masterful on mage >:D

with 0 boes

[sweet summit]

[strong forum]

meanwhile our firemage has masterful 1

cries in low dps

[distant crystal]

one of our mages volunteered to sit for m raden

i got the 2h with masterful 2

and he went casual the next day

O_O

[sweet summit]

lmfao

[strong forum]

not surprising

our outlul has 0 good corruptions still

hes losing by 20/30k dps to our BM/ firemage in keys

hes so done with the game

[distant crystal]

that's why you run 7 alts

they can't all be unluck

my bear's rocking TD5

[sharp night]

my warr had nothing and then last week got two td3 pieces and i can't even equip both

cause i'd be at 83 corruption or something

[distant crystal]

with next week's resist bump

i'll be running td3 + masterful like...8 on mage

whatever adds up to 58 corruption with 62 resist

also fyi if you forget to use your +3 resist item and do another vision

or presumably also n'zoth

you can use it and then loot the next one

[warm plinth]

@hallow phoenix jk on the azerokk thing. They just hotfixed it so it’s 15 seconds before boss combat pulls you out 😦

[hallow phoenix]

😦

"hotfix"

is that for all bosses

[distant crystal]

wtf

[warm plinth]

Yeah

[hallow phoenix]

wtf

[warm plinth]

I think it’s part of the fix for a bug that was letting people not trigger awakened when they pull last boss if they left lieutenants alive

[sharp night]

wonder what the bug was

[mild ore]

[astral crystal]

🤔

[chilly brook]

12 second cd wadu

Actually

That might be baseline for the class @astral crystal because IP is baseline to all specs

[astral crystal]

looks like the tclap root is baseline now as well

[midnight eagle]

my druid has rank 2 essences but not 3 - i can't buy them on my warrior, right?

like he is revered with naz/mech and has 3600 experience for the followers but not 4800

[astral crystal]

bolster is going to take menace's place on the talent tree as a t5 talent

that's great, new indom is open now

it's a 1% heal though

[chilly brook]

tbh so far

the changes look hype

[astral crystal]

ravager has a target cap now

lmao

[chilly brook]

imagine

[astral crystal]

it was just too strong before...

[chilly brook]

nerfing a bad talent

[undone sun]

all* aoe had a target cap, it's likely just listing it now

[chilly brook]

even more of a meme now

[astral crystal]

ah i thought it didnt

[chilly brook]

Like a lot of this stuff looks so good

[astral crystal]

lotta nerfs all around too

[mild ore]

seems like they are nerfing haste for all specs

despite the complains that the game feels slow

lol

[astral crystal]

more buttons now

more pew pew

[undone sun]

if they listen to complaints, they would have reverted all of the gcd changes

[surreal girder]

more buttons isn't gonna make the game feel less slow. It's a gcd issue

[astral crystal]

im just being ironic

also looks like they're just spreading out ability upgrades

[mild ore]

thunderstruck is baseline now apparently

[astral crystal]

yeah i hope that sticks

[mild ore]

what's this

[chilly brook]

Holy shit

NEW Moment of Glory During Ardent Defender, every melee attack against you triggers Grand Crusader.

[astral crystal]

seraphim doesn't consume sotr anymore either

pretty nice

[mild ore]

ye but prot pallies use holy power now

[chilly brook]

bruh that's nuts

[mild ore]

dont know what that's about

[chilly brook]

That's fine

Used to it from Cata until now

But that's nuts

Since First Avenger now grants an absorb for 100% of damage dealt by Avenger's Shield

[astral crystal]

a whole minute?! i want the 60 second cd back

[mild ore]

this is a single target dps buff right

[astral crystal]

also wonder if that means you get the 30% ss damage

[mild ore]

somehow

[undone sun]

ravager has a target cap now

nerfing a bad talent

turns out a lot of aoe is getting a hard and low target cap

so ravager was included because it fits the category

Previous target cap; "it used to be scales to 20, and splits as if it did 20x on >20 targets" which i'd consider a soft cap
Now, they're hard capping to 5-8

[nimble forum]

thoughts on fury prot for main tank?

[sweet summit]

Honestly cant tell if thats #vanilla-discussion or #696840315117502515

[left hatch]

idk how i feel about the target cap thing

like itll be balanced if everyone is getting the cap but

only point of it is to prevent mass pulling in M+

[undone sun]

i try to be as reserved as i can, but honestly

that's a big yikes

[left hatch]

which..... how is that fun

and you could do the same balancing act by just removing target cap on the handful of abilities that still have a low one

[sweet summit]

Fury has a "target cap" atm, and is keeping up with dh and rogue

I dont see the issue

[undone sun]

currently all aoe has a soft target cap

[left hatch]

^ but at 20 irrc

[undone sun]

frost dk is an exception, because it works differently

and warlock i think

but regardless

shadowlands putting all aoe to a 5-8 hard target cap

[left hatch]

and this is a change that negatively impacts even non high-key/mass pulling ppl because itll make doing low keys or raid trash more tedious

some aoe looked like it escaped it

Eye Beam from DH for one

Fist of Fury on WW

you know.. the abilities that already do omega damage

in aoe

[undone sun]

i'd bet on oversight

[left hatch]

ouch

also making blade dance's cd go from 9 -> 15s

[inland silo]

5 target cap on fury doesnt prevent it from being top m+ damage now

im sure they just give everyone else more damage

[mild ore]

this shit feels the same like the gcd change

they changed gcds for all specs because some specs like affliction lock were handicapped

so now everyone gets target cap just like we got gcds

[left hatch]

but no class is handicapped

[mild ore]

kek

[left hatch]

this seems exclusively to counter chain/mass pulls in M+

[mild ore]

are mass pulls a bad thing

i don't see why they would target it

[left hatch]

they arn't but its playing content in a way not intended ig?

[grand drum]

To make the mdi look more professional or something

[left hatch]

they tried to counter it after legion by making trash way harder

and ig they're doubling down

[distant crystal]

[undone sun]

Blizzard doesn't like the pull sizes and speed, so they increased the amount of gcds to reduce speed, and target caps to reduce size

Ez

[astral crystal]

but we know they dont play their own game, someone always figures out a way

[placid oar]

Hi guys, for a new protection warrior this patch. Using Major (Visions of Perfection), Minors (Lucid, C&S and Strength of the warden) is correct ya? I’m learning to do keys upwards to 15+ and slowly improve since I am turning tank for some friends to do M+

[left hatch]

yah that'll do great for you till you get close to +20

[inland mesa]

target cap makes me more sad, so far I haven't liked anything shadowlands has released for prot 😕

and vampire better be bis so I can have a tombstone on my back and if it's not a shield I can then hit things with, I riot

is TC not target cap'd?

[regal star]

in workshop do i run sphere or conflict with nullification?

[sick sentinel]

Always cns and u can run null

[pseudo depot]

Prot warrior for m+, what's the min crit you want to be running?

[undone sun]

anything more than 0%

[pseudo depot]

I can do 15 crit and 38 haste, but is that wonky? Should i balance it at 30/30ish?