Prolly the atk speed buff if the dmg portions of the others aren't OP
#protection
strong forum
And root for pvp
Anyone excited for WCM next week?
Pull entire rooms into bosses
Finally having fun again
sweet summit
same 😎
autumn pendant
BLASTING
brittle owl
feels catholic man
strong forum
✝️
barren wagon
which trait u guys prefer, i have a helm that have DC and endless hunger, shoulder with HoD with DC, should i get hod on shoulder and dc on headpiece? or the other around
sweet summit
i have no idea what endless hunger is but i know that HoD is strong
barren wagon
alright
dim blaze
If I'm having bad luck getting any twilight dev would expedient be a good backup option or just keep looking for TD? M+ Focus
left hatch
expedient isn't awful but its not even a close substitute
GW, TA, even EV arn't awful substitutes
lean flame
Would you guys take vers % corruption or haste % corruption for +20-22
left hatch
thats still TD range
so neither
once you start getting into 23's is when you start packing on verse% and verse proc
if its a 1:1 choice between those 2 corruptions though with no other options id just sim it
and take w/e gives you more output
and itll likely come out with Haste ahead
without going out of your way to stack verse and get a surging vitality you'll likely get more stat (and more value) outta the % haste one for rn
slender nova
can ToS mythic be solo'd yet?
slender nova
only 424 on my warr, that going to be enough?
left hatch
assuming yo'ure talking about temple of sethralis yeh?
if you're talking tomb of Sargaras idk
hallow heron
Tomb is soloable, I was at maybe 440ish when I did it, there's one boss that's a bit of a pain to solo but it is doable
slender nova
I'm only 424, might be a struggle. Just think I'll have better luck with items if I was to solo
Hmm, will need to gear my warr up for it then
hallow heron
Yeah I'd recommend gearing up a bit just to be safe, the second last boss you have to kill before he nukes all of the platforms
amber burrow
What are good azerite traits and talents for solo horrific visions?
left hatch
traits are the same as all other content
1xDC 3xBoM and filling in the other 2 with w/ but pref HoD, MS or CH
and talents are the same as usual 1x23x11
wheat ore
Modular Platinum Plating trinket from mecha. Haven't ever seen it mentioned by anyone, so I'm assuming it's shit?
left hatch
absolute worst trinket in the game
warm plinth
There's a lot but I guess my question would be...how do you forget Ignore Pain? How are you not overcapping Rage if you aren't pressing IP?
neon minnow
I'm a noob when it comes to tanking, i'm trying to learn, and the number one issue i have right now is according to my tank expert is i never keep IP up
alpine shard
When activly tanking you want SB up, IP whenever you can afford the rage. Never use IP at the cost of SB uptime.
mortal brook
more likely, get a WA that pings you when you hit 70+ rage. so you can use a spender
and also not overcap
lean flame
Thank you!
neon minnow
Any links for that? Cant find any WA thats good like that.
slender nova
can I run nighthold on more than one difficulty per week?
slender nova
I can only solo one per week tho?
mortal brook
aye loot lockouts per difficulty per week
slender nova
Damn, was hoping I could do a normal, heroic and a mythic run on my DK
chrome palm
i was reading the wowhead guide, and they have high praise for this trinket
https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=159616/gore-crusted-butchers-block&bonus=4777:1512
I've been wearing my 445 Sigil of Warding (for the defensive CD) over a 450 Butcher's Block. Should I be wearing the Butcher's Block isntead?
i didnt realize crit was defensive
left hatch
yes
warm plinth
You should, and Sigil is not great anyway
left hatch
'saved'
chrome palm
and has been nice with il'gynoth
left hatch
attribution bias
chrome palm
fair
left hatch
its a shitty version of nzoth trinket
chrome palm
yeah that's a big true. Rolled on that every week
left hatch
and even then you don't really need the absorb until you break into the 20 range
theres other answers to any other situation in the game
before that point
chrome palm
alright yeah, i appreciate the advice. I will swap trinkets
left hatch
and unless you absolutely NEED it to live. and need it on cd you get more tankiness outta block or a haste trinket
it just doesn't feel like it cause its a hidden metric
you can't see parry on hps or something so its less tangible
chrome palm
and unless you absolutely NEED it to live. and need it on cd you get more tankiness outta block or a haste trinket
this is how i've looked at it
chrome palm
like minion of zul
left hatch
theres other solutions to how to live
than that trinket
even minion you can rotate externals or just kite
strong forum
You get to use it once vs Zul..
mortal brook
@slender nova lockouts are by character. You can literally run it on 50 alts in a week
left hatch
^ and its typically not great to run a solution for that one isolated problem
chrome palm
yeah i've been running Lucid Dreams major when i take off the trinket, and just keep up IP if i'm out of every other defensive
is that also a mistake?
left hatch
are you doing 20's?
left hatch
VoP is much. much better
strong forum
Lucid is useless outside of 21+
left hatch
the 2nd pin can do a better job explaining why / how its used
chrome palm
it seems like a great minor
strong forum
Minor is great yes
But major is not worth the loss of vop in low keys
Aka lower than 20
left hatch
and why you shouldn't use 'oh these top warriors use this in 24's' to determine what you do
lime wing
Why do Icy Veins prioritizes BfI over BoM?
left hatch
hoo boy theres a lot to unpack about that
left hatch
well icy is written from an exclusively def standpoint
and im pretty sure its more geared towards raiding
icy is a really good starting pint if yo'rue a new player
but thats it. a starting point
mortal brook
Even worse D:
chrome palm
so you're saying i could run:
Major: VoP
Minor: Lucid, Breath of Warden, Nullification
left hatch
and now to adress you pizza
lime wing
but thats it. a starting point
@left hatch I see, so where do I find info about that stuff?
chrome palm
or should i take a different minor?
left hatch
give me a sec theres a lot i have to tell you haha
chrome palm
ok no worries
left hatch
@lime wing ask around here mostly if you have more in depth questions
lime wing
Ok, thanks 🙂
chrome palm
that pin is great
left hatch
ok 1st never. ever. run void trinket
distant crystal
your face is great
left hatch
the absorb gets consumed instantly so its worthless
sweet summit
wow
left hatch
doesn't matter, id take a 420 rezan over it
- verse isn't a priority in the keys you're running
its Haste>Crit>Verse
verse isn't even a consideration till like 23 keys
and then you get into a whole other ballgame of specifically stacking it with verse corruptions to get meme level amounts
distant crystal
void still isn't good there :p
left hatch
also that
distant crystal
it's basically just a little vers and a shield that gets insta-broken
chrome palm
so with my haste corruption i'm getting like 82% haste during pulls
distant crystal
by the first 1-2 melees
chrome palm
if they all proc
left hatch
ok thats the next thing
you shouldn't be stacking haste corruptions
unless thats your only option
sweet summit
TD>anything else 😉
left hatch
^
chrome palm
yeah i'd use it if i had it, trust me
left hatch
until you get to like 22/23 range you stack dps corruptions
sweet summit
EV>expedient
left hatch
like literally just sim top gear to figure out what works best at the corruption cap you're comfortable with
chrome palm
no echoing void either
left hatch
and roll with that
sweet summit
unlucky mate :(
left hatch
GW, TA, EV, TD all good choices
chrome palm
i have like the tendrils one, and some other shit dps one
left hatch
any dps one is better than the stat procs
chrome palm
wowhead seems to recommend the haste corruptions
left hatch
not affiliated with wowhead at all, bigbrain mwahi makes icy
distant crystal
the haste proc one is decent
expedient not so much, tho it's not a bad one to fill out the last little bit of your budget
chrome palm
yeah it's p fun tbh. it's like a mini bloodlust all the time
left hatch
the reasoning behind it is corruption has such little impact on your survivability (unless you giga stack verse ones) that its dumb to waste budget
on something you have need for
chrome palm
but anyway, i'm going to get a rank 3 twilight dev 1 hander today in my box
so i can swap it out
100% guaranteed
sweet summit
pog
left hatch
like i said just go on raidbots and sim what choices you got
and go with w/e it says makes you pump the most
the only really 'bad' dps corruption is infinite stars
chrome palm
like gunker
chilly brook
Anyone get anything nice out of their box?
chrome palm
the haste stacking is bad? or just because i have so much of it?
left hatch
gunker is also a bad fight for IS because you'll split stacks onto the bots
haste stacking isn't bad
theres jsut better corruptions for your level of content
chrome palm
yeah fair
left hatch
and by the time you hit a point where "fuck i need corruption to live" you stack verse instead
chrome palm
my goal is to get 12s on every dungeon and see where i'm at gearwise after that
chilly brook
@sweet summit tfw this was your first corruption after 8.3 dropped
chrome palm
yeah fair
chilly brook
1 DC is amazing
chilly brook
Just to help further clarify
sweet summit
that thing was fucking broken at the start, matt
left hatch
what are your other options to swap out one of your dcs?
chilly brook
Oh I know
sweet summit
unfair
lime wing
Is this any good? https://i.imgur.com/C7Sx8VK.png
chilly brook
It was bonkers
lime wing
Avoidance was great in the past
chilly brook
My guild was very jealous
sweet summit
avoidance the worst one :/
chrome palm
lemme see if i can find my gear on raidbots
lime wing
avoidance the worst one :/
@sweet summit oh 😦
chrome palm
im @ work so i'm not sure how i can see my bags
chilly brook
@distant crystal thanks you too I'm hoping I get something nice on my ret pally
chrome palm
yeah go tit
left hatch
on your shoulders
chilly brook
Didn't get a 15 but a 10 is better than nothing
left hatch
you can run earthlink instead
chilly brook
Nice
chrome palm
alrigth i can reforge that
chilly brook
I've been enjoying Outlaw tbh
I'm still torn on what I actually want to play
Like ret pumps
chrome palm
is there a site that i can see my bags?
left hatch
your talents look fantastic, personal pref iv been running the heroic leap on the 30 tier, and stormbolt on 75
but its not necesary
chilly brook
But I always find myself going prot on my pally because I'm too impatient and people in pug raids are stupid and dont know how to tank
left hatch
i got used to the redeuced range of Tclap and having more heroic leaps is a godsend sometimes
chrome palm
yeah i should start getting use to stormbolt
chrome palm
i need to run more leaps too i think, for kiting
sweet summit
^
left hatch
and then your essences
already addressed lucid major is a mistake
flip it for VoP major
chrome palm
what about breath of the warden?
distant crystal
i usually run rumbling
left hatch
and then for Minors, i strongly strongly recommend picking up CnS
chilly brook
just tell your group to stack on you 🙃
distant crystal
1 less button on my bars :p
chrome palm
yeah i know, i'm never getting it
left hatch
mmk thats ok
distant crystal
ok boys do i tempt fate and open box as prot spec
chrome palm
i just am bad at pvp and hate it
distant crystal
praying for a shield
chilly brook
Its honestly not that hard
chrome palm
i need it on my monk badly
chilly brook
You dont have to be good at pvp to get it
distant crystal
yolo
chrome palm
you need like 1400 score to get it in 6 weeks
chilly brook
You dont lose rating up until past 1400
left hatch
other options that are really good are Lucid, Sphere (only need rank 1 so its free)
and then Str of the Warden if you need the resistance
chrome palm
isn't sphere from battelgrounds?
rigid stream
purge i assume?
chilly brook
And once you have 1400 you can just do the invasions to conquest cap @chrome palm
left hatch
but its 100% worth it
chrome palm
for rank 3?
left hatch
only need r1
distant crystal
left hatch
r2 adds a slow and r3 adds speed to you
distant crystal
🤔
left hatch
so meh value
chrome palm
hmm
chilly brook
You can literally go arms, find a friend or 2 and you can PvE people to death easily up to 1400
left hatch
Sphere and lucid are the most consistent and overall useful minors outside CnS
chrome palm
but then i need to cap conquest every week right?
left hatch
Aegis is ... ok... but you have to play around it or its an empty slot
chilly brook
Yes but you can do the invasions for conquest
left hatch
and by play around it i mean in combat with 6+ targets all the time
including pulling into bosses
distant crystal
AOO + CTAs + invasions
left hatch
so its good on like teeming or if you love chain pulling
distant crystal
quick caps
mortal brook
bat for naz is rarely ever pvp
chrome palm
i dont even have a 2 hander over 400 ilvl
distant crystal
i mean you gotta tag at least one
left hatch
and null is amazing in raid for 2 reasons
- a large component of the damage is magic so the absorb is being consumed consistently
- because of hte consistent consuming, the st dps is really fucking good
it falls off in M+ because large portions of hte dungeon arn't magic, the shield is mostly wasted, the damage is split so it falls off in cleave/aoe, and frankly most situations youd die to magic damage the shiled won't save you
chilly brook
You could also probably get 1400 pretty easily in prot tbh
left hatch
and its due to scuffed kicks
chrome palm
prot can do arenas?
left hatch
so Null doesn't really shine in keys till again, you break into the 20 range
chilly brook
Especially it you have corruption like TD
left hatch
I did pvp as prot to 1600 with a Hpal
chilly brook
Yes prot can do arenas
chrome palm
4 hours to get 1600?
left hatch
yeh
chrome palm
i mean i'm dogshit at pvp tho
left hatch
DW i am too
inland silo
so is everyone else on the way up there
chilly brook
I got to 1600 on a Guardian Druid lol
left hatch
its like pve, you just avatar and tclap spam
rigid stream
for keys up to 15, VOP major, lucid, CnS and what else minor in your opinion
rigid stream
1600 its 3 weeks
chilly brook
left hatch
tbh thats like keys up to 20 lol
chrome palm
so once youre 1600 you can just stop right?
left hatch
yeh
rigid stream
correct
chrome palm
it might be easier on my DH
chilly brook
You're just going to hurt your time to get it
chrome palm
yeah i have a 460 with rank 3 infinite stars on my DH
chilly brook
Honestly find a healer and a 430 2h from m0 and clap people in arms
Arms is omegalul
chrome palm
but then i need the azerite
chilly brook
Literally just PvE people
chrome palm
so i'd need like 4 pieces of hear just to arms
chrome palm
and use prot traits?
chilly brook
Nah I mean reforge your azerite for the pvp and once you're done go back
Arms is actually hella fun in pvp tbh
chrome palm
is the root really THAT good?
chilly brook
No
chrome palm
on brew it's amazing, but the prot one seems ok
chilly brook
You dont use it for the root
chrome palm
the vers?
chilly brook
Yes
left hatch
^
chrome palm
i thought vers didnt matter till super high keys
chilly brook
You mainly use it for a minor
left hatch
stacking it doesn't matter
but its a fuckload of stat
a bunch of ANY stat matters a lot
chilly brook
But it's literally practically the best minor for almost every class
chrome palm
i was hoping bliz would pivot and let us buy essences we didnt earn
like legion legendaries in 7.3.5
chilly brook
Lol
chrome palm
and i'd just buy CnS with echos
distant crystal
i did cns the hard way on 3 toons :p
left hatch
legion legendareis weren't locked behind specific content tho
chilly brook
Blizz got their heels dug in brother
left hatch
it was an rng lottery
chrome palm
look dont ruin my dream
left hatch
im just happy i didnt have to grind out CLF or CnS on my DH (:
chilly brook
SL is sounding promising but they gotta break their nasty habit of the last 3 xpacs of digging their heels in and burying their heads in the sand
chrome palm
the covenant thing already has people warning them not to do it
left hatch
lol forum ppl will whine about anything though
theres ppl that say M+ system is shit
not problems with it, just hte concept of it is dumb and ruins the game
chrome palm
i mean like when they rebalance the abilities, people aren't able to switch
chilly brook
Ion made that statement about wanting the unpruning to error on the side of "did we give them too much stuff?"
chrome palm
if 1 becomes really good
chilly brook
And I can't help but think "lul he must have just replaced 2 spells"
chilly brook
I would love seals back
left hatch
^ modern ret is really ZZZZ
chilly brook
Like the short duration consumed on judgement seals
For all paladins
Not just ret
chilly brook
Like that's the thing that I've been loving about playing classic lately, it's not hard to play your class but your moment to moment gameplay while more simplistic also isn't simply just a press DPS button with no drawback
Resources matter
And when resources are a concern you get more use out of your toolkit on for example a paladin because you can utilize your different seals to your advantage in those situations
rigid stream
which one? I am not close to being able to socket my gear. And have TD rank 3
left hatch
im hoping the covenent abilities add a little bit of that back
ilvl always
for weapon
chilly brook
Ilvl
left hatch
cleanse if you have to
left hatch
is your cloak maxed?
rigid stream
no
chilly brook
Yea Morrison I also kinda hope they back off of making some classes be so heavily weighted in DPS to their CDs and their spenders while their builders do practically nothing
rigid stream
kk
left hatch
iv really been digging casually playing fury the last few weeks because of that
it feels really good to have your dps equally tied to Bloodthirst now
cinder storm
Do visions drop shields?
left hatch
to the point my heart drops when it doesn't crit
and im more excited when thrist comes off cd than i am when i have the rage to rampage
chilly brook
Tbh I think it just feels better when every button press actually does something
And stacking DPS so heavily in CDs and spenders kills that
left hatch
DH is also a blast because of how much uptime Meta has now
yah it feels shit to just spam DB and CS
but thats such a minimal amount of time
with modern traits/essences
your burst window is bigger than your wet noodle window
blazing gale
is stamina flask worth using when runnign r3 twilight ?
chilly brook
Thankfully ret is somewhat bandaid fixed with expurgation in that respect as well
chrome palm
@left hatch what about earthlink vs shimmering haven?
chrome palm
2 stacks of earthlink?
left hatch
mhm
blazing gale
I think I will actually run r2 twilight to make room for the haste proc corruption thats bis right?
left hatch
in which case Verse % and verse proc are
left hatch
sim it
sick sentinel
Do not cleanse that shield for the fire of 1000 hells will condemn you
blazing gale
just started tanking today timed a couple of 14's, wanted to see how Im doing
left hatch
only thing you can sim for
chrome palm
@sick sentinel keep the vers?
chilly brook
@left hatch as much shit as holinka got WoD pvp was great
sick sentinel
Wait is it verse% or verse proc
chrome palm
proc
sick sentinel
I’d keep it, but then again it’s not 475 so unless you’re pushing higher end content you won’t need it
Second one is an 30 ilvl upgrade
You take the upgrade
left hatch
go with ilvl but swap bloodsport out for the baby raptor
sick sentinel
Figured, okay Thanks a bunch guys!
left hatch
yike
left hatch
but yah pizza when you can get home and sim best in bags, for M+ you'll wanna sim a
sick sentinel
But I’m committed
left hatch
Patchwerk 1 target 3m with bloodlust on
Patchwerk 3 target 1m 30s no lust
Patchwerk 5 target 1m 30s no lust
and do a little critical thinking which way to lean
limpid pawn
yo is 5% leech actually good for any situation
left hatch
nope
by the time content gets scary you'll wanna be stacking verse corruptions
so leech has no value if yo'ure giving up corruption budget, ilvl etc for it
left hatch
ouch shiled too
left hatch
its really not
limpid pawn
versatility proc is good
left hatch
22k absorb... every 1m
left hatch
oh i thought thats what you were talking about
chrome palm
the versatile rannk 3
chrome palm
yeah i think i should keep it
and cleanse some haste
i think i should cleanse the haste procs? and keep the flat % bonus?
left hatch
the proc probably gives you more by itself
left hatch
verse is better in the long run
sharp rover
If I'm not tanking anything higher than an 18 I can ignore vers corruptions right?
sick sentinel
Cleansing haste is something a lot of prot warriors do tbh. It’s nice to have, but other corruption is better
left hatch
if yo'ure not tanking anything higher than a 20 you can ignore verse corruptions
TD is king
sharp rover
Cool beans
sick sentinel
Honestly
chrome palm
that's my case though
sick sentinel
You can sneak a little higher than 20 with TD
sharp rover
I'm an arms main so hearing anyone cleanse haste hurts me on a spiritual level
chrome palm
yeah i subbed out 1 ring and it's down to good levels
i just wont purify anything right now
left hatch
i havn't been purifying on my DH
chrome palm
went from a 465 ring though to a 455
left hatch
have like 20 corrupted pieces in bag
sick sentinel
Gross lol
left hatch
get to run a big ol like 10mil iteration sim once a week
sharp rover
How is gushing wound for prot?
left hatch
very good
its one of the highest (if not THE highest) in dps per corruption
and its a great niche filler to pair with the big bois
blazing gale
is it good for m+ tho ? I have gushing on 475 wrathion wrist
I can wear eaither that or another 475 socket wrist with vers proc
left hatch
its better than the verse proc
but when it comes to corruption in a pre-20range setting
just sim it to double check
blazing gale
for prot you sim 5 targets 1,30min or sth else ?
blazing gale
Isn't it bad ?
chrome palm
no, only people who arent looking at simcraft development say it's bad
it's the same people that write patchwek and hectic add cleave
they added new functionality
sick sentinel
It’s difficult to sim accurately for a whole dungeon
chilly brook
Dungeon slice is bad
chrome palm
it isn't bad
chrome palm
if it's deterministic, and repeatable - how is it bad?
accuracy is based on it being normalized
chilly brook
You're literally better off doing patchwork 10 minutes with 10 targets tbh
chrome palm
over many iterations
sick sentinel
Because it’s difficult to sim for an entire dungeon
chrome palm
of course
sick sentinel
Too many outside factors
chilly brook
It's like simming for survival
sick sentinel
So it’s more accurate and better to sim for the size of pulls and fight lengths you will be doing
chilly brook
It's just a bad premise to begin with
chrome palm
are you simming to compare your actual damage in real life to the sim target? or are you simming for best gear?
because if it's the latter, dungeon slice is 100% accurate
it's (a) normalized and (b) deterministic
chilly brook
If I was simming for best gear I would patchwork for the amount of targets I was pulling
sick sentinel
^
chrome palm
that's a misconception
chilly brook
Is it though
blazing gale
big pulls on pugruns are never a good idea from my experience xd
sick sentinel
No, it isn’t
chrome palm
lets say im testing running shoes, and i cant see the clock
i only see a faster or slower
and i try to rank the shoes
i can do that without knowing the actual time
lean arch
is an azerite piece without bastion worth using?
lean arch
yea 30
chilly brook
BoM is nice but not required
lean arch
sick sentinel
Then absolutely
chrome palm
that's called "normalization" and it's used in all types of simulations
lean arch
brace/IF?
left hatch
well thats the thing even on a bell curve
normal bolt
460 vita, 465 butchers block and 475 rezan eye, what combo should i use for m+
left hatch
dungeon slice doesn't accurately reflect the pulls you make in a dungeon
sick sentinel
^^^^^^^^!!!!!
left hatch
it heavily prioritizes ST
chrome palm
did you read through the code?
left hatch
the 'timer' is irrelevent
chilly brook
@chrome palm the point of simming is to know what that time is not whether it's just a flat better or worse
left hatch
i mean the guy who makes hte prot APL frequently talks about how bad dungeon slice is
and syas it does
so..
sick sentinel
Its too generalized
chilly brook
Take for example said running shoes are faster but they're extremely uncomfortable and only less than 1% faster
I would not use them
sick sentinel
Ie bad for m+
lean arch
literally every discord shits on dungeon slice
blazing gale
lets hope one day they'll figure it out
sick sentinel
It’s cause it’s bad
chrome palm
@chilly brook what sim option is the equivalent of that though?
chilly brook
Wdym?
left hatch
the closest you can accurately get is doing 3 patchwerk sims
1t 3m
3t 1.5m
5 (or 6)t 1.5m
chrome palm
Take for example said running shoes are faster but they're extremely uncomfortable and only less than 1% faster
What I mean is, what sim option resolves this anaolgy you're making?
I'd argue that none do
chrome palm
what i'm guessing is that you made that statement to clarify that Dungeon Slice doesn't tell you enough information
and I'm asking which sim option does
what is the alternative that fixes the issue you're trying to describe
left hatch
its not about enough information. its that dungeon slice in no way accurately reflects a realistic scenario
chilly brook
No that's not what I made the statement about
chrome palm
right, but lets make the assumption that we have two options:
- Dungeon Slice
- Hectic Add Cleave
or choose any other
chilly brook
I was saying that just getting a flat it's "faster " or it's "slower" isn't really all that valuable
chrome palm
- Dungeon Slice
- multiple patchwerk sims
chilly brook
Getting the most accurate info is
heavy talon
3 patchwerk is also no where near what u see in dungeon
left hatch
your whole analogy about shoes is based on 'rankings for anything are normalized' but its like comparing 1 set of running shoes on downhill sprints in icy conditions when in reality yo'ure running an uphill marathon in perfect weather
chrome palm
you dont actually sim for accuracy if you're looking for best gear. you're simming for relative value
left hatch
correct,
chrome palm
you want normalized/repeatable/deterministic values for which to compare
left hatch
but slice does not give correct RELATIVE values either
chilly brook
I dont see why 3 patchwerk can't be what you see in a dungeon considering you can control fight length, amount of targets etc.
chrome palm
you dont actually care about the net value (raw DPS output)
nothing is wrong with 3 patchwerk
chilly brook
You do though
chrome palm
if I hid the DPS number from you, and just gave you the gear compare from raidbots - would that be useless?
heavy talon
have you ever read what dungeon slice does
chrome palm
is that unusable?
sick sentinel
Yes
chilly brook
Yes it would be
sick sentinel
That is pointless
chilly brook
Like I said
left hatch
noones argueing that relative values arn't the point
chilly brook
A 1% upgrade that makes your rotation worse is not worth it
chilly brook
Hence why I made my analogy
chrome palm
ok well that gets back to the first principle I asked. Are you simming for:
a. Compare your real-life DPS to the number it spits out
b. Find which gear gives the highest DPS
?
because that's the first principle on which my argument lies
my argument is structured on (b)
and falls apart with (a)
left hatch
c. finding the highest DPS in set circumstances that reflect different pulls you make in a dungeon
chilly brook
Why are those 2 options mutually exclusive
chrome palm
yeah (c) still holds
sick sentinel
+1 to griffs question
chrome palm
yeah, normalization doesn't solve (a)
chilly brook
Because they really shouldn't be mutually exclusive
chrome palm
you cant use a normalized value to check your actual dps
chilly brook
Ofc you can
chilly brook
You do the same exact thing? Lmao
chrome palm
i just normalized the gross value to the value 1
left hatch
normalized value reflects good play with average rng
sometimes you'll be above
sometimes below
chrome palm
now how do you sim and compare to that normalized value?
sick sentinel
Clockwork heart
chrome palm
let's say i do 75,551 dps
right now
and i want to "normallize" that such that i can find my highest gear
sick sentinel
Wait is that what dungeon slice says you do or what you actually do
left hatch
its a standard deviation
sick sentinel
Just curious
chrome palm
one commn method is to make that value 1
you're thinking of normal distribution
which involves normalization
but yeah, that's the basic point
left hatch
well thats the thing, under those circumstances real life will tend to reflect those normalized values
since it rules out outliers
the more often you play the more instances of your dps reflecting those values
chrome palm
well you'll need to explain that one to me, because i don't see how that's the case
sick sentinel
It’s not
left hatch
thats literally why you normalize data
chrome palm
because the criticism of dungeon slice is that it's "not accurate". Is that right?
chrome palm
ok let's step back
let me just lay out my argument because i don't want you to waste time responding to a point i'm not making
it helps us all
lean arch
gummy bears are better in pancakes than blueberries
chrome palm
so let's take the case where i want to find out if I can do real-life dps better than the sim
sick sentinel
That is the creepiest thing I have read all day
lean arch
undone sun
How dare you @lean arch
chrome palm
and dungeon slice is inaccurate, in the sense that it won't actually show me realistic damage for (lets say) a 10 minute slice of dungeon
in that case, I cannot go into a dungeon with that value I simmed (the one for the 10 minute dungeon slice) - and compare my ACTUAL performance to it
I'd describe that as "inaccurate"
left hatch
... yo'ure misunderstanding hte point of simming
left hatch
yes deviation in real values from simmed values is innacurate but its not the innacuracy ppl are talking about
chrome palm
then i've lost the thread of this discussion
left hatch
you're correct that the point of simming is to find relative values between gear to determine whats best
chrome palm
yes
left hatch
3 patchwerks more accurately depicts what you'll see in a dungeon
sick sentinel
It’s accurate for the use case sure, but it’s not reflective of an actual dungeon
chrome palm
you just combined the seperate concepts again
left hatch
dungeon slice (for one reason or another that far smarter ppl like Mwahi would know)
chrome palm
i was with you till the second statement
left hatch
does not
in your shoe analogy dungeon slice is like comparing sprints on a track
when yo'ure shopping for shoes for the boston marathon
chrome palm
so the recommendation is pathwerk with 3 bosses?
left hatch
no
Patchwerk 1t 3m
Pathcwerk 3t 1.5m no lust
Patchwerk 5t 1.5m no lust
because it depicts your average pull sizes
if you pull bigger than tweak the aoe to reflect what your usual pull size is
its not perfect but it gives you a much better relative value of how diff sets will perform in diff cases
chrome palm
alright i guess i've learned some things
i'll try to go through the dungeon slice code before i bring it up again
left hatch
i think it was just a fundamental misunderstanding of what ppl are saying when we talk about accurate
chrome palm
maybe i can make some contributions that will help it be more accurate
yeah i'd like to hear what that simc guy says
left hatch
eh i mean its almost impossible to accurately depict an entire dungeon
and have that be the gold standard
sick sentinel
You can only sim it encounter by encounter
left hatch
because theres so many different variables
^
which is why we use patchwerk with diff sizes
you have that control to reflect what you actually do
sick sentinel
If you’re gonna do a monkey pull with lust, sim it
If you’re gonna pull one pack, sim that
chrome palm
yeah turning lust off is smart
left hatch
dungeon slice will never be able to reflect what each individual affix set, dungeon etc does
undone sun
It's a combination of apl and the actual sim module being inaccurate to each other
Almost no spec uses DS for proper simming
left hatch
like are you going to base your "dungeon sim" off workshop? or freehold
left hatch
cause just taking an average value wouldn't be useful to either case
sick sentinel
Back in my day we ain’t had no sims
left hatch
hence innacurate
rn i think blizzard is more concerned about incorperating some kind of IO-like scoring
as far as 3rd party is concerned
simming they don't give a fuck about
sick sentinel
can barely ~ can’t
cinder storm
They don't care about m+ enough to do that, I d be surprised if they did
chrome palm
they should rewrite it in Rust
undone sun
That would be something
chrome palm
maybe they could give some patreon money to raidbots
i'm sure it's expensive as fuck to run all thse sims
left hatch
but activisions bonussss
sick sentinel
What’s it currently written in
chrome palm
i change my mind
sick sentinel
Python would be a lot cheaper to run for sure
chrome palm
python is worse than C++
left hatch
oh i do'nt know fuckall about programming (: i just know python is a langauge
chrome palm
it would be so slow
left hatch
and it sounds more metal than easy C
wheat ore
Rusty Metal?
left hatch
you not wrong, technical rust is literally metal
sick sentinel
Oxidized metal :^)
left hatch
or metal oxide which close enough
chrome palm
i dont know enough about chemistry to contribute lmao
i see it ON metal, so i believe you
left hatch
but yah tldr dungeon slice = no control
sick sentinel
Now excuse me while I blatantly ignore my sims and play what feels good
sick sentinel
Because i have lots of Td and am never going to be punished for my poor play
chrome palm
one thing i've noticed in the short time I've played Prot - is that i feel a lot more in control of living/dying than my Brew
i just feel like im in the hands of the healer with my brew
left hatch
i didn't play brew passed s2 so i didn't get to experience the god tier healing s3 brew
but s1 and 2 100%
you just are always slowly dying
its like perma grevious
chrome palm
yeah they nerfed gift of the ox
it's super noticeable
particularly in the raid, i feel way squishier
left hatch
and it was way too boring in raid to play for me
did they ever fix the issue with minimal difference between perfect purfies and literally using it on cd
chilly brook
BrM has never been the same since they took guard and shuffle away and made your main mitigation Stagger with the addition of ISB
left hatch
i remember some logs of uldir where there was essentially no difference between a master brew and a 4head that didn't even ironskin brew
and it really turned me off to the spec
chilly brook
BrM with Chi and using Chi to clear stagger and having all the other stuff to balance was so good
left hatch
brew having blackout kick
left hatch
speaking of good old days
they need to fix blood shield
make it based on damage done again
and scale decently
i miss having an absorb shiled bigger than twice my health
up constantly
chilly brook
Monk as a whole has just been worse ever since they fundamentally changed it in Legion prepatch with the exception of WW
And even then the old SEF was BiS
left hatch
idk how WW played pre legion, but tab targeting - tiger palming shit to do decent aoe
is ugh
chrome palm
the covenant abilities for monk are hilariously boring
it's like "reset the keg smash CD"
left hatch
tbf they only have one last i checked
chilly brook
It was a lot better Morrison
chrome palm
oh boy, wowie
left hatch
so you have 3 more TBD effects that might be cooler
chrome palm
the DH one is so broken
left hatch
the vampire boi ones seemed consistently nifty
chrome palm
it's like: ignore LOS and blink behind them
left hatch
Druid gets the storm ele buff
chrome palm
idk how that works in arena
chrome palm
they should give DH bloodlust and a self-heal CD too and see people freak out
left hatch
and damage values/tuning aside the DH play seems to be the aoe that gives you soul fragments
in M+ at least
chrome palm
and a battle rez
left hatch
give DK back their purge tbh
chrome palm
i wonder if they'll give ranged a mellee kick timer
left hatch
more purges in general im fine with
left hatch
thats less of a fuck you
than 1/2 through a xpac makign secondaries SUPER devalued
and pumping the values on gear
but not changing gems
lmfao
poor JC
last mason
Is it worth trying to get into tanking through pugs if I don’t have any td yet
left hatch
yes
any corruption isn't a necesity
it just helps carry bad dps
and prot has enough base dps anywya that you wont have any threat issues
you can do 40k st w/o corruptions
last mason
How?
I have pretty garbage corruptions rn, just some vers, stars, and masterful
And still 445 wep and shield
But I’m 467
So those are outliers
Was thinking of buying a shield
left hatch
stars isn't worth running in M+ unless its your only option
and idk how to answer how... like if you run CoF and do your rotation right
you can do 40k
fiery copper
Hey guys Azerite question for you all. Is it better to wear 3 piece Bastion or 2 piece bastion 1 piece defending crash and junk traits.
sick sentinel
heyx guys, anyone of you doing carapace right now? do zysts spawns other pattern?
fiery copper
Ok ty @left hatch
last mason
You would never really take Cof in m+ tho right?
last mason
How necessary is rank 3 cop over rank 2
fiery copper
VoP major until you begin to do 20+ keys right?
last mason
Vop
left hatch
correct wapa
lean arch
r3 vop is almost inconsequential
lean arch
much smaller than r1>r2
last mason
But not a huge deal if I’m not pushing 20+?
left hatch
^
just spam a few heroic workships
its not needed but... its a nice upgrade for minimal effort
warm plinth
No reason at all to not have R3 Vision at this point. It's too easy.
last mason
You can run them more than 1x a week?
left hatch
yes
last mason
Oh ok didn’t realize
warm plinth
Yes, the only one that's limited to one per week is M0
warm plinth
Strife 3 is a pain in the ass if you don't have it on another toon
But it's really just time
left hatch
strife is the best minor in the game
last mason
But I’ve been running sphere, null, and lucid
last mason
Should I replace it with aegis
left hatch
defensively and offensively theres better options
do you not need corruption resistance?
lean arch
do you hold a specific cd for indigestion on cragmaw? im used to bdk and it tickles with ams up. but it be hitting different as war
last mason
I have dogshit corruptions so not really
left hatch
unless its avoidance, glimpse of clarity or leech
its worth running
id say Lucid, Sphere and Str of warden
and pop on an extra corrupted piece
(:
lean arch
didnt know you could avoid
last mason
But I feel like stars is a sims corruptions
sick sentinel
A well timed heroic leap can get you through it as well :^)
last mason
Corruption*
left hatch
stars is meh
last mason
So I opt out
stark scroll
Wait, you can back pedal to dodge indigestion? til
warm plinth
@lean arch When he's about .5-.7 seconds from casting it on your timer, just strafe away
left hatch
with what you got rn ig run aegis till you get CnS or need the resistance
its not an amazing pick if you don't chain pull to play around it
but itll be better than null
warm plinth
I mean, I wouldn't backpedal if you don't have to. Cutting it close on the timing there
But strafe away or heroic leap if you're not sure you'll make it is easy enough
Note that it's away, not to the side
He will still turn to face you if you try to sidestep
stark scroll
I mostly tank on my DH but my guildmate struggles with that boss on his war so I'll pass it along, cheers
warm plinth
Yeah no reason ever to get hit by it
left hatch
it can be a lifesaver
warm plinth
It trucks on high keys
warm plinth
?
left hatch
but blizz has a super cringe sing-song add for wow classic
warm plinth
Yikes
left hatch
and nothing steve carrell has ever done has outcringed what i just saw
holy shit.
now you can suffer too
warm plinth
Hard pass
Also, my baby war got a uh
465 ring from chest
One of the haste ones from Mecha (nature damage proc I think)
left hatch
didu finally get some nice TD on your DH?
left hatch
rip ):
warm plinth
DH got 475 bracers that simmed way worse than what I have
left hatch
visions have consistently hated me
sick sentinel
Ghash do you want some of my TD