its pretty solid
#protection
strong forum
kind veldt
ok cheers
dense moss
guys how much haste you should aim for on m+ ?
sweet summit
as much as yor highest ilvl gear allow you to have
warm plinth
There's no cap or goal. However much you can get without sacrificing item level.
warm plinth
Haste also provides more damage and is pretty competitive with crit. Ideally you'd have haste/crit gear for M+ (but again, without sacrificing ilevel)
left hatch
the only real change to 'gear for crit' would be like changing gems and enchants
which realistically have very little impact on survivability
so if you wanna sim and see if crit gems are better go for it
but the dps gain is also pretty minimal
maiden ravine
grrr
"I'm sorry, guildie needs this key"
kicks after keeping me around 10 minutes
oh well
they have a 900 io rogue and the key holder himself is low
so good luck
tame garden
maiden ravine
I mean it was a workshop 16, only reason I stayed around is I was confident I could carry that key, but if he's swapping to a guildie, haha
maiden ravine
pug life for ya
mental scarab
Yea happend some times on higer keys for me sucks 😑
maiden ravine
yep
vague glade
are these any good? gives me 8% avoid.. its either that or 460 gloves with rank 2 echo
mortal brook
they are not good. theyre usable if its all you got, but the dmg profile of almost all content is direct dmg and that would not provide strong capability for its corruption cost alternatives
vague glade
figured.. i can clean them and wear 460 echo gloves
nimble brook
I'd definitely cleanse that and use the echo gloves
vague glade
thank you for the help
carmine wadi
Would you use vial 465 or torment 460?
upbeat orbit
torment is by far the highest for aoe
slate pilot
How does stacking DRs work? If i shieldwall and someone ironbarks me at the same time, do i have a total of 60% DR or do i first DR 40% and then 20% from the remaining damage?
undone sun
Stacking damage redutions are multiplicative
undone sun
You won't ever reach 100% dr
warm plinth
That was good English Thyme
undone sun
Thank you
meaning 20% * 30% = 44% reduction (well technically it's 1-((1-.2)*(1-.3))
I was looking for that so I didn't bother proofing it
@slate pilot
left hatch
aka its almost never worth doubling up on DR cds
unless you absolutely need it to live.... like solo tanking/soaking first boss in Uldir
undone sun
Very niche
left hatch
i can't think of any modern examples where you really need to double up on DR
maybe progging on mythic Shad?
tame garden
If your cotank dies and you gotta tank 3 or 4 stacks on ilgy
Shad doesnt rly hurt that much tbh
modern brook
meaning 20% * 30% = 44% reduction (well technically it's 1-((1-.2)*(1-.3))
@undone sun
Wow amazing math skills I love and appreciate all your contributions
Oh fuck nvm
I'm dyslexic and didnt see the minus
Plz no insult me it's a medical peonlen
tame garden
Quick delete this
modern brook
There fixed
tame garden
LMAO
potent anvil
undone sun
❤️ @modern brook
cobalt grove
so a quick theorycraft question, what's the order of mitigation for incoming damage?
Like is it armor>block>ignore pain/absorbs?
cobalt grove
So say a boss hits me with an attack, what is the order of which damage taken is reduced?
Example: 100k incoming damage, armor reduction offers 60% mitigation, a non-crit block is ~60%. Would it be 36k actual damage pre-ignore pain/absorb?
strong forum
id say yes
undone sun
Yup
strong forum
however some absorbs are before block i think
but those are very specific
i think
cobalt grove
And ignore pain would just be 18k off of that 36k
undone sun
90% of absorbs are last
strong forum
ye steak
cobalt grove
thought so
Looking at it like that, I really do love warrior mitigation and damage intake
cobalt grove
Yeah, that is also a good thing
And spells that are somehow blockable
Appreciate the input folks
lucid dew
What do you guys think about going tier 4 TD next week
Will put me at exactly 40 corruption how bad is one corruption of the thing from beyond
tidal sleet
We have raid tanks running in the 70s on farm fights. >>
You can shield reflect things from beyond. Anything under 60 is plenty safe.
left hatch
after awhile of running in the 50 range its not even TFB thats the most lethal
that eyeball gets real fucking annoying
esp in dungeons/fights where your mobility is limited
left hatch
Harlan
grand drum
I feel like corruption side effects proc more often this week
maiden ravine
I'm still laughing at how much spell reflect chunks adderis. I'm gonna abuse the hell out of that now.
grand drum
What can you reflect?
left hatch
cyclone strike
maiden ravine
Cyclone if you're not the primary target
grand drum
The whole shotgun?
tame garden
Yep
left hatch
its like well over 1M damage per reflect
grand drum
Wow
tame garden
Very fair and balanced
maiden ravine
I swear it was 20% of his hp on a 15
I was scared to try it cause I'm normally terrible at timing
But with that, it trivializes the only hard part of ToS
left hatch
theres a google dof in #268491842637660160 that has a list of everything reflectable/deflectable of note
some of my favs are 3rd boss in ML and 4th boss in WCM
maiden ravine
4th being lord and lady?
left hatch
mhm
maiden ravine
But yeah, I'm looking forward to cheesing tos every week
That'll be my go to key to get my weekly on warrior
I just love it on awakened as it is
Only time it's hell is explosive weeks
Cause of last boss
strange tide
Is it normal for us to be top DPS in m+ or should I be looking for better DPS pugs?
tame garden
Better dps
strong forum
better dps
left hatch
if your dps are missing TD and you have it you can be around where they are
but generally yah... they should be kicking your ass
strange tide
I ran a couple of +12s earlier this week and just ran a +13 TOS and was top for all. I do have TD3 but the DPS all had ilevel equal or better than mine. Do you guys trawl through rio when pugging?
left hatch
i have the IO addon
carmine nymph
I’m top dps sometimes because my twilight dev 😂
left hatch
so i can see at a glance what their score is for that character, their main, last season, and what the highest they've done for that particular listing is
it just adds info to their little name tooptip when you hover over them
strange tide
Sound, I’ll give it a go and be a little more picky with my pugs, thanks for the help
stark scroll
I started off being quite lenient but got sick of 465-470 geared dudes only doing 40k, if you're pulling big enough that you can do good dps they should be way higher
craggy harness
islam's more important mosque?
that can't be the root of that lol
oh
it is
shit
that's the mosque at the center of mecca
strong forum
unluck
tame garden
TIL
lucid dew
any projections on when mythic will open up to cross realm
Is it 100 guilds on both horde and ally or just in total
hallow phoenix
Both
lucid dew
We are in the 60s now
hallow phoenix
Hall of Fame has to be filled on both sides
sharp night
they always do
hallow phoenix
Yep
lucid dew
So we got several more weeks then
hallow phoenix
Easily
lucid dew
Ugh
analog zinc
i lagged out while WQing & got killed by corruption lmfao
analog zinc
forgot to post pic
mortal brook
I control the battlefield, not you!
sullen valve
strong forum
"the risk he took was calculated, but damn hes bad at math"
mortal brook
nice
tame garden
Healers are the worst
Made all our dps go below 40 in raid last week
Just heal u nobs
analog zinc
i think its highly class specific
pwar has no issues under 60
except for spell reflect fights
final mist
tell ur healers they suck
tame garden
I would if I was dps
analog swift
Tbh even boring af fights become awesome with high corruption
Drest is fucking terrible as a tank but kiting three things from beyond is awesome
tame garden
📈
mortal brook
thats a pretty sick dropoff
tame garden
🤏
wicked abyss
Is the mechagon shield any good?
sharp night
worse than other shields of equal ilvl, better than anything lower
tame garden
🤏
strong forum
its the worst shield in the game, but if its your highest ilvl you should still equip it
wicked abyss
Then i scrap it, lol
dusky mica
the heal absorb is about less than half the absorb done by a resounding protection on a boss fight
the damage reflect part is almost 0 because the absorb is gone instantly
Mine has TD rank 2 on it so it's not quite worst shield in game.
plain helm
Hey boys.. I am fury war and trying to get into tanking.. Is everything here on the pins also?
vocal furnace
👏
sick sentinel
left hatch
what specifically kills you
left hatch
the 2nd stack kills you? o.o
south lantern
Yes
left hatch
idunno, you def seem to be doing something wrong
you can SR it and stay at 1 stack
but the only scary damage imo is if you have bad dps
and get a bunch of adds
at least only damage we struggled with on prog
do you have logs of the wipes?
sick sentinel
So I’m working my way into the higher keys. Did a 8 KR rest.... the bridge was awful. I know I need to get above 10 ASAP but I gotta gear up too.
Any help for these awful fort teeming keys when I can’t use obelisk skips yet?
mortal brook
Invis works fine. Tbh some places are easier with obs. Workshop comes to mind there.
halcyon siren
Hey how are prot wars in heroic and mythic raids right now
left hatch
they're fine
are they necessarily the best at handling certain mechanics? no. but this far into the patch that means literally nothing
you can survive anything with correct play and pump lots of deepus
halcyon siren
Gearing up a pally right now, heard bdks are good but that lack of armor makes me really worry
left hatch
honestly unless you're pushing the highest level of progression
like world first 100 or 24+ keys
it doesn't matter what you play
halcyon siren
Ok
left hatch
each tank has its own niche strenghths
and weaknesses
so play what you have fun with (:
cinder roost
I have to make Drest strat I wanna kms, I don't even want to know what's going on in that fight
9minutes of split tentacles assignment and timed kill, zzz
maiden ravine
Everyone should have an insane amount of dps if they're raiders and kept up with cloaks
vague swift
not perfect, but it's a start
otherwise just basically group up and run in a circle while killing tentacles
cinder roost
Oh that might help, thank you
I was reading notes on the video I'm watching but don't even know what I'm reading
vague swift
it's more about staggering the people that do boss damage while keeping the amount of tentacles at a manageable level than everything else
(and incredibly boring as atank)
cinder roost
Yeah but you have to kill some together yeah?
vague swift
always debuff 2 tentacles if possible at all
you will have to split melee and range dps because melees can't attack the maws
having said that they should still always be in the same part of the room and range should help melee with some of the tentacles depending on what is up
finite gull
Hey guys. With engineering helmet what would be the go to for M+ prot? The 2nd ring of traits specifically
mortal brook
gizmo is the go to nowadays. bombs will beat it a little for damage
sick sentinel
How have your guys junkyard keys been this week? Got a 17 I wanna do
exotic spoke
Play it smart and youll be fine
daring marlin
big dam
mortal brook
Good work
limpid pawn
475 rezans 475 butchers block, lingering psychic shell, humming black dragonscale, and vita
fringe marten
Doesn't the dragonscale outsim rezan's eye at equal ilevels?
limpid pawn
i'm not sure
fringe marten
I'll have to go back to check bloodmallet
According to mallet for damage ONLY, Dragonscale beats Rezan's at equal ilevel, you have to get a rezan's from your box at the 470 to 475 range to slightly edge out 460 dragonscale. So says random math engine I don't trust~
copper lion
should i be using visions as major in m+?
fringe marten
Absolutely. You may see some very high IO prot warriors run other options, but they're considerations made for extremely difficult high keys. Vision major will take you up to the 20 range as a very solid pick.
south lantern
It is much easier to get humming Black Dragonscale Dragonscale than Rezans lol
fringe marten
It doesn't mean the other things you see ran don't have value; like Memory lucid major or Conflict and Strife major. They are taken for different reasons other than damage output; and if you're appropriately geared and playing prot warrior right you don't 'need' that style of survivability until a very high curve in the key scale. If you're struggling in lower keys it's your personal play; or low group dps having you tank packs too long; or bad healer. Make sure #1 is a non factor before you look to blame anyone else.
Crucible major is great for single target damage; taken usually for raids, but it's a damage output ONLY consideration. If you're doing mythic progression and the tanking is challenging for you; don't use crucible.
south lantern
Why are prot warriors so suboptimal in Ny’alotha?
fringe marten
They are not.
south lantern
Guilds all prefer monks, DHs or paladins
fringe marten
Tank balance in BFA is among the best it's been in wow for a long time; however in a raid situation Brewmaster monks look like granite rocks that are super easy to heal.
oblique garnet
All of which are better for the raid what prot warrios brings
copper lion
should i be using null barrier minor in m+
oblique garnet
Depends on a key
fringe marten
Jirsa; not usually. The value of that is largely for the damage pop when the shield explodes; and of course absorbing the mage damage..which needs to be a major concern for the key to overtake other all around better choices.
south lantern
How many 12/12M guilds used a prot warrior?
inland mesa
We'll be 10/12 with one :D
fringe marten
The phrasing of your question is what's a little suspect 'why are warriors so suboptimal?' sounds like you're trying to make warrior sound unviable. (sorry if that's not your intention) Other raid tanks may bring other things to the table, or be more 'stable' tanks for some fights; but warriors are not 'bad' for Nyalotha.
You're saying that as if the guild who is 10 or 11 of 12 with a prot warrior tank..is not 12/12 BECAUSE of the tank. That is not the issue.
oblique garnet
Atm there is 1 prot warrior who is 12/12
inland mesa
Sense?
south lantern
Correct. Not saying unviable. Saying suboptimal compared to other tank classes.
inland mesa
I felt a lot better on my warrior than I did on my monk for Ra'den
oblique garnet
Prot warrior is honestly fine and feels alot sturdier than brm
fringe marten
Someone who is 10/11/12 on mythic Ny'alotha is probably much more concerned with aggressive mythic raid progression; meaning they likely play more than 1 tank so they bring something that might make it easier on healers or bring another tool to the table to assist the fight that little bit more. A lot of really dedicated raid tanks aren't warrior purists.. I think only Sense and Boost and a couple others are warrior die hards who are in strong progressive guilds.
undone sun
Feelings 😡
left hatch
if you wanna know why gduils prefer XYZ class
its because they watch some half-assed pushed out rankings video
that a YTer makes
and take it to heart without doing any more research
oblique garnet
Dont be like that thyme 
compared to brm on raden i had no isues living
undone sun
i mean, i highly doubt most top guilds look for those videos
oblique garnet
My only issue was not dropping low enough in p2 to not get clapped by the debuff
left hatch
VDH are unkillable gods, monks have stagger so they'll be cemented as 'best raid tank' in the minds of the general populace... despite VDH being objectively tankier this tier
south lantern
There was one video where prot warriors were ranked in the C tier for Ny’alotha. Just above DKs
fringe marten
Or..videos that a world first guild is racing with; they see their strategy, see they are leaning on the strength of X tank class; so their long time guild MT who has a couple different tanks says "ok lemme dust off my (not warrior)..so we can use that strat.."
undone sun
even then..
left hatch
if you were you wouldn't be watching rank videos to form an opinion lol
undone sun
most WF raiders can sufficiently play just about any class at that level, but the whole point is to minimize the amount of risk
left hatch
if undergeared prot can struggle to live through some things, shadar double issolve, 2nd ilgy beam etc
but by the time you hit that content yo'ull overgear it
inland mesa
Drest'agath probably feels better on brew, shad'har. Vex was groovy on warrior, xanesh was better with more warrior dps. Hivemind doesnt matter. Il'gynoth probably brew but you can cheese trinkets on eye hit
left hatch
and the dps you can hit on proc will be comparitively more useful than some of the things other tanks provided to cuttign edge prog raiding
limpid pawn
just get lingering psychic shell
fringe marten
I haven't cared about those vids in a long time...I play my warrior very well; I know warrior can do all content. I'm not racing for world first..I'm not even IN a guild, mine fell apart in late dazar'alor progression and went to play other games. They're coming back in shadowlands..so maybe I'll do mythic progression again then. If I were in a mythic prog guild, I could tank the zone..that simple.
left hatch
i mean hell theres still people holding onto the 'DKS ARE BEST TANKS HANDLE MAGIC DAMAGE BEST SCALE BEST '
despite numerous articles debunking that
inland mesa
Is psychic shell better for 2nd eye hit than maut trinket? Guess its up every min so should be up every 2nd hit?
fringe marten
Do we need an extra tool in our belt in the form of a certain trinket? eh? Do we need to ask for an extra external that (NotWarrior) others don't have to ask for? eh? Could I manage it? Yes.
left hatch
end of the day when it comes to raiding tank balance doesn't matter. you might have to work a little bit harder but you can still complete content
and in M+ theres many. many. more walls to your progression their than being the fotm class
assuming you're one of the best players in the game yo'ull be able to clear within a key level or 2 of the other best players in the world. regardless of what tank you're on
fringe marten
For a long time for early mythic progression warriors have not been a top pick. For a long time we've been a tank that has to have a deep toolkit (gear/trinkets/etc) and good gameplay and understanding of the class to get through; but we keep finding ways to do it. ATM we've risen to all-star M+ DPS tank status..so there's a bit more people wanting to roll one, or dust off an old prot warrior they have.
oblique garnet
Warrior has been fine on m+ most of bfa
Only at the start of s1 they were struggling and in s3 monks were broken and overtook
fringe marten
Yes late. Don't tell them now~ Early on when we 'sucked' I was doing fine. THEN we got the patch to allow us to block ranged 'attacks', and I think that was the one that put Ignore pain off GCD? Then we got a lot spicier.
oblique garnet
Im scarred for life of Throw rock and Throw wrench
warm plinth
Not to mention Shoot from the miniboss in KR 😬
warm plinth
Yiiiiikes
fringe marten
All the other people in S1 and S2 especially that were like "how comes u can't pull all the stuff and LOS it like a DK???" In motherlode. "you know those gobbos got wrench's right? They throws them~"
halcyon siren
Wish they'd allow warriors to partially block magic attacks or something like that, sorta like ff14 pally. But would probably make warriors to strong then
oblique garnet
If warriors could block magic damage they would be way too strong
fringe marten
Dude if we got even a small amount of block toward magic mitigation...ohhhh~ Don't tempt me.
warm plinth
IP and SR (not to mention high uptime on Demo Shout) are fine for magic
left hatch
be careful where you get your 'tier list' info from too....
Taliesen is casual af and rates for 'fun value'
Bellular doesn't even fucking play the game anymore and is washed up
Sco has (had now) a very niche mastery and was primarily focused on what would be best pushing in M+ race
Preach.... dapples in a lot of classes but really doesn't have in depth understanding of any class outside what his current main is
and blocking spells goes against current game design for blizz
magic is a healer mechanic
left hatch
they very specifically wanted to take away tank agency for magic damage
fringe marten
That was their whole thing for BFA? Tell me you guys remember that at the start of it
that was one of the huge pillars of the expansion; making healers more valuable again, tanks needing healers
then DK/Disc priest happened~
left hatch
can you blame them? legion ended with DK/warlock parties no healers allowed lol
oblique garnet
You can do this season without healers aswell
modest thistle
those were dark times indeed
fringe marten
+essences~
oblique garnet
Or like how 5 tanks did 20 junk in time
left hatch
that beingsaid i think it was an overcorrect. you can make tanks non-self sufficient without totally gutting our agency over a damage source
fringe marten
Hmmm...I wonder if shockbots had anything to do with that~
modest thistle
not even a little
warm plinth
I do, but only T1 😦
modest thistle
look at how many demonhunter abilities he casted
warm plinth
I'm a havoc main, don't @ me
modest thistle
he must be a skilled player
warm plinth
¯_(ツ)_/¯
left hatch
wut
warm plinth
If you wanna grab me some corrupted gear from the AH, I will gladly do more damage for you
warm plinth
TD corruption scales linearly so there's no reason to avoid any tiers
limpid pawn
like do we stack lower tiwlight devs
left hatch
no
warm plinth
It's 25/50/75 corruption and 6/12/18% health
fringe marten
It's the same % for value of corruption.
oblique garnet
You just take td no matter rank
limpid pawn
oh so its' direct
left hatch
its not like EV where tier 2 is (was?) way more efficient dps per corruption wise
warm plinth
Yep
left hatch
it comes out perfectly 6% per 25
maiden ravine
haha, (Tol Dagor NO TWIDEV!)
undone sun
sold out
warm plinth
Nah man
Tich has a ton of it
It's just all like
T1 for 6 mil and shit
I legit saw a pair of 460 pants with the defensive vers proc for 6 mil on Tich AH last week
They are completely out of touch
left hatch
meanwhile over here ready to equip TD5 in 2 weeks 😉
warm plinth
I'm honestly not rich enough to buy corruption so it's kind of a moot point for me
oblique garnet
Boost more smh
undone sun
ez
warm plinth
I haven't boosted in a while tbh lol. Been advertising more than anything
limpid pawn
td5 =rank 3 + rank 2you mean?
left hatch
yeh
limpid pawn
i have td3 + td 1 but i dont' wanna cleanse shit lol
because knowing that our resist levels will go up a lot
warm plinth
See?
left hatch
you can run td4 already
warm plinth
On Tich AH atm for 8.5 mil
fringe marten
The sad thing is; that proc is amazing...but even people doing VERY difficult keys STILL spend their corruption budget on damage output. And that is tougher content than Mythic raiding. As much as I like facerolling most content and being invincible until it scales into insane range; if blizzard wanted tanks to care about tanking, and healers to care about healing..they simply had to make tanks be LESS durable.
warm plinth
Or they have one that's T2 for only 5 mil!
maiden ravine
trying to hype myself up to try a 15 TD
limpid pawn
i think it's because they couldn't make it so that you had to depend on some defensive corruption to viably tank higher stuff
oblique garnet
Why would you not push for damage in m+
fringe marten
As much as I love doing boatloads of AoE damage and being a seriously meaningful part of the damage throughput of a M+ dungeon... I kinda wish blizzard had built a world where we were constantly focused on being more and more durable as a tank; because we NEEDED to.
left hatch
^ the timer is a much bigger threat than damage
eh tanking is and always has had the same job as a dps
get to a point where you can comfortably survive. then focus on output
fringe marten
Absolutely; I agree. My point simply being much of the itemization put in seemingly for "this would be great for tanks..to reduce damage..." we never want.
warm plinth
My opinion is that if Blizzard made progression on tanks a means to survivability rather than gameplay, we'd see even less tanks than we do now.
left hatch
yah thats kind of boring
maiden ravine
kinda what we saw in Wrath if Defense cap
left hatch
whats exciting about needing a bonus armor standin just to live through basic AA's
maiden ravine
Where if you were willing to tank, you were "collected"
fringe marten
Absolutely Morrison; but that's how WoW is. Other mmo's weren't always like that, in Everquest you were gearing to be tougher because you desperately wanted to survive better.
left hatch
thats not engaging
fringe marten
But that was ..a long time ago with another mindset of mmo.
oblique garnet
I mean if you look at what tanks are doing at the highest levels of keys they are going full defensive on their trinkets/essences and offensive corruptions to compensate for it
left hatch
even FFXIV, ppl stop running tenacity for crit and skillspeed builds after the first clear or 2
and in there speedclears matter way less in raids than wow
fringe marten
Right late..but still spending the flashy new proc system..on more damage (of course because you need it to push the timer; I get that)
maiden ravine
ugh, that 1:59 to 3:00am suuuucks
left hatch
realistically though that new proc system isn't great for defenses
procs are unrealiable, so bad for very high endtanking
%'s are only strong to a point
fringe marten
You're not wrong morrison, really just the Versa proc, maybe the Versa from all sources, or haste proc/etc. But even then none of that is explicitly damage reduction minded.
left hatch
procs arn't good for extremely high keys though
you need things you can rely on to activate WHEN you need it
hence AUG and lucid
warm plinth
Defensively*
left hatch
^^
undone sun
procs aren't good defensivly. period.
fringe marten
But that's how defense always worked
exactly
The rando procs that sim for damage are only good when you don't have critical moments where you have to survive..and you can just always focus on blasting.
oblique garnet
I am still not convinced on lucid major 🤷♀️
left hatch
so... im not getting what your solution would be?
on use % reduction corruption?
noone would want that. and ppl would be salty it was in the pool because it reduces chances of something exciting
it feels bad enough having avoidance in the pool
fringe marten
I smacked a couple medium keys with it..nothing 'tough' and the leech window was nice but I ended up thinking; if this was a much higher key this wouldn't keep me alive it would just barely help the healer along...? and maybe that's the difference.
Morrison my solution isn't about 'fun' it's about making people double down on their role, and would require a retune of the entire game, likely how tank and healer classes functioned...DPS would have to be part of that too.
sharp night
but there are critical moments where you have to survive, we just have the tools to deal with it in the kits
unless you're saying they just make everything significantly harder
warm plinth
No one plays the game if the game isn't fun
left hatch
tbh id stop tanking if it was a world of "NO DPS. ONLY TANK"
as would a vast majority of ppl still doing the role
undone sun
proper play makes a bigger difference defensively than gear does
oblique garnet
The only fun thing in m+ as a tank is to try and beat the dps players anyways
fringe marten
But it already is morrison; if you just played a DPS class you'd be doing more damage if that's what you REALLY want.
warm plinth
Yeah I mean, I'm not really tanking now, but I wouldn't even HAVE a tank if we went back to the 102.4% avoidance bullshit from the early days
left hatch
its not though? you were just complaining about how tank meta right now is all about pumping dps
at the expense of 'tankier' options
maiden ravine
I get it, but man do I hate people looking for 2.3k rio to do 16s
fringe marten
Wasn't as much complaining as I was saying that it's sad that shortly into a gearing cycle we end up with the mindset of a DPS. Which pushes all equipment into 1 pile.. Even healers just want DPS now. =\
left hatch
well thats the point of speed runs
to clear a dungeon as fast as possible you need the highest possible dps
fringe marten
Yes; and that's a result of more modern mmo's...hence the comparison to Everquest.
left hatch
and a system where you want to constantly stack tankiness is either impossible to balance. youd either hit never be able to get passed a gatekeeper threshold of 'tankiness' because youd need gear from that content to hit it
or the content would become easy and youd focus on other things
sharp night
you would have to fundamentally redesign how mobs work too
left hatch
tankiness stops mattering once you can live
fringe marten
^^^ vince is right..the game back then played very differently.
warm plinth
Yeah exactly. Damage is an uncapped progression system. Being "tankier" stops mattering at a certain point.
oblique garnet
Dont tanks in classic also just push damage because there is no actual damage in the game anyways?
fringe marten
Right, not saying you guys are wrong at all. What i'm saying is unless you played mmo's back then you aren't thinking of how they played then.. DPS wasn't the metric for success, or even killing things.
left hatch
because its a binary 'live or die' system
uneven fern
Tanks in classic push damage so their dps can deal dmg
left hatch
once you hit it gratz
fringe marten
(sounds odd I know)
left hatch
what was the metric for success then lol
fringe marten
How do progression guilds gear now? You literally prioritize DPS first, you flood them the gear, even DPS paladins get pushed gear over tanks...then you gear tanks, then you gear healers.
warm plinth
Killing the thing you're trying to kill has been the metric for success in every MMO I've played.
left hatch
yah...
fringe marten
Because 'playing well' IE using active mitigation and playing the fight properly, is what has you live..until you collapse. You dps it faster so you don't collapse.
oblique garnet
Its the same thing as retail tho
fringe marten
Back then..before vanilla wow. Fights/content was much MUCH slower.
warm plinth
But your goal was still to kill x thing
fringe marten
Your ability to kill ANYTHING was solely ENTIRELY about how geared your Main Tank was..and how many clerics you had to run a complete heal chain behind him.
left hatch
ok so once you kil it
sick sentinel
is haste proc corruption worth much as prot? Got it on a belt thats 15ilvl downgrade
left hatch
what did your tank do with the good gear he just got?
in your world nothing. because hes already tanky enough to kill said thing
and dps doesn't matter
fringe marten
So the maintank was flooded ALL gear that made them tougher; and your ability to progress through content in the game was LITERALLY what your tank..could tank.
warm plinth
Right but once you can tank it, then...?
uneven fern
@oblique garnet so far on retail I have never hear of a tank that told his DPS to stop dpsing cause he didn't have enough threat. (skittish week is the only exception and even then)
oblique garnet
People also were really bad at the game back when vanilla was a thing
sharp night
it makes you tankier for the next boss
fringe marten
More healers...more tanky~....Fights were slow..the tank didn't get bursted down; they were ground down, and only a couple healers even existed, and the complete heal was the only one that mattered.
Also, you aren't seeing how the game was designed.
oblique garnet
no they dont tell the tank to stop dpsing
but tanks lose aggro
monk is awful to play in m+ rn
left hatch
whats the point of 'more healy and more tanky' when you've already beaten the thing
oblique garnet
you dont hold aggro without tricks/corruption proc
sharp night
tbf
it's the same as rewarding gear off the final boss in any given tier
you've already killed it, you don't need the gear
fringe marten
The mobs/dungeons...nothing was instanced. It was all contested content, and was built to be WAY outside the player power curve, you had to very slowly gear up to stuff so you could down it, and once you did..it was gone, no one else could get it for a week.
left hatch
that still fails to explain why you would need more tankiness
once you killed said thing
warm plinth
Yeah, I played EQOA which was similar. But you still didn't go for more tankiness than was needed to kill the boss.
fringe marten
In any given xpac in EQ there was content that was nearly unkillable until you had all the gear from other content 'below' it.. by the time people were attempting end of expansion bosses; the next expansion was coming out.
EQOA was not EQ.
uneven fern
In classic the difference between a tank and a dps is that a tank has TF, wears plate. That is it. They play almost like a dps with the only difference that they use sunder armor a lot
left hatch
so whats the point of that final contents reward
warm plinth
I didn't say it was. I just said the content was similar.
warm plinth
It was not instanced; you competed with other guilds/groups for the bosses
sharp night
prep for next expansion 🙂
left hatch
good game design -_-
fringe marten
The handful of players killing that content were exponentially stronger than most of the player base. They were progressing through content ONLY they could kill because only they got the gear from it..because it was all contested.
sharp night
i mean i just said, what's the point of gear from final boss in any given tier in a patch in wow
left hatch
exponentially stronger which means nothing if your damage output doesn't matter
fringe marten
The 'next best guild' was trying to log in at 2am to take your dragon kill...before you could log in to get it.
sharp night
m+ changes things a little bit because it has infinite progression
but for raidloggers
left hatch
so... a speed based system
sharp night
why do you need +10 ilvls from last boss
fringe marten
It mattered enough because of course you had to 'kill' mobs; but how you killed them was by having enough healers to run a CHeal chain on the Maintank, so the MT never died. If you couldn't do that..you could NEVER kill the target.
sharp night
you can't design content like that now though
fringe marten
The amount of damage players did, compared to mobs health..never mattered a ton, you just got MORE people.
left hatch
so exactly the same as it is now
except group size is capped
your just made up the dps difference with more people
and content has a time gate
which objectively makes it harder
fringe marten
If you were doing..50 dps, and I was doing 200 dps. I'm 4x more powerful than you..but it STILL doesn't matter. It only matters in weaker content, in smaller dungeons or solo stuff where your strength could be seen. In actually upper end content..your 200 dps didn't matter.
sharp night
well it's not meaningless either, you're just a glorified meat shield
nobody else can take a hit
if you die everyone else is dead
fringe marten
The glory was quite similar to what people say they 'wanted' from vanilla. For their progress to be slower but meaningful and the equipment to really 'matter'.
undone sun
👀
fringe marten
Because there were no damage parsers, all that mattered was that you KILLED IT, and you did, or didn't..get a new item.
left hatch
but by your own definition gear wouldn't matter
because only tankiness matters
and if you live through that content
fringe marten
But by class disparity basically there were a few people doing useful dps, the rest were doing trash.
amber siren
left hatch
gratz you passed the tankiness check
so that gear you got. is by definition meaningless to you
since all that extra defence is not needed
fringe marten
It matters a lot if you're the MT to actually progress the guild, and it mattered to you personally because when you went back to quad kiting, or soloing or playing with your buddy..you could see you were more powerful; bigger numbers.
fringe marten
Right; but in a 'raid' situation because of how much HP that mob had, and how long it took to kill it. You didn't actually win through your dps.
You won because the healers sat..meditated, got mana..stood up, casted a TEN SECOND long heal on the MT. Sat down.. and 5 to 8 clerics did that
And you fought that mob for 15, 20, 35 minutes.
By WoW's modern standards, and ? basically any modern mmo; it is incredibly painfully slow and boring.
However; to my original point... the Tank was the allstar; and how tanky he was, was incredibly important. And getting tankier, to an infinite degree...was the goal.
My point only being; you said 'how can it matter..just being tanky enough then doing more damage is what matters' Not the way that game was set up, during that time.
uneven fern
Remember that back in those days tanks were incredibly boring to play cause all you pretty much had was just gear. Other than that it was just mashing your keys to cast pure DPS skills
amber siren
uneven fern
Limited to like 1 skill you could use defensively
fringe marten
yup, 100% enforcer. THREE buttons. Taunt, Slam, or Bash (depending on if you were large race) and kick.
The defensive skills came in later, in Ruins of Kunark with the "disciplines"
Yeah having buttons to 'push' to do damage, was stuff only hybrids with spells had. Warriors had 'weapon skills' like dual wield and such, but they were all passive.
uneven fern
I have no idea about that game I am just talking about classic till Cata. Cause in all that time tanking was purely about doing damage while mostly keeping 1 defensive buff up or something similar.
fringe marten
Oh; this was even more simple than that...much more so. Still the most engrossing mmo i've ever played; but of course that's because of when I played. Now it would be unplayably bland.
sharp night
anyway back to the main point, even if defensive corruptions were powerful enough to make tanks want them over damage ones
tropic thistle
What a strange thing to say, if it’s bland to you now, then you have played something more engrossing...
uneven fern
Nowadays tanking isn't much about gear hoarding. You actually have to use skills to stay alive. If I miss my shield block and spend my rage on ignore pain I will put a lot of strain on the healer or I might even die. If back in vanilla you forgot to use shield block.... So what!?
sharp night
the way the game is designed now, there would still be nobody taking them
fringe marten
They wouldn't vince; unless certain encounters called for them...I totally get that.
sharp night
no not just that
the way the fights are designed
there is too much damage that goes out that isn't on the tank
amber siren
a game can be good for its time but bad 10 years later
sharp night
you're limited by how many kicks/stuns/whatever you have
amber siren
fringe marten
Right; and that was why the fights worked like that in EQ. Mobs with AoE's were, very rare. Not all 'high end' raid mobs had them. Some did.
Obviously this is archaic and is an mmo system that won't ever see the light of day again.
uneven fern
Also corruptions don't scale with being a DPS and it is a team effort. With TD and EV dealing damage based on max health it deals more damage as a tank than as a dps.
fringe marten
Of course; just the base class of the DPS is doing more, so they still do more damage; just not exclusively with some corrupted effects.
uneven fern
It is all about raid dps and even the tank plays a role there
I like the way it is atm. And going back to tanks just being a walking shield would be boring to play everywhere and frustrating to play in solo content
In classic based on the rotation I was part of the very top. Because it was so dull and easy. The hardest part was staying awake. And with loot being the only thing that makes you stronger it felt very unrewarding to play and the moment you actually got all the loot from current content you just felt like quitting every day
vagrant wharf
Using a 470 Rezan, Second Trinket choice 460 sigil of warding vs 465 Butcher's block, am I getting enough value out of the sigil of warding to use it over the butcher's block?
wild sandal
I thought razan was put bis but I see most tanks don't use it, even in the tournament realm, the go nazoth trinket and vita, is razan not our bis anymore
prisma crane
vita is much better
vagrant wharf
Ya I just have nothing else currently
prisma crane
and they use nzoth for surv so it's different
wild sandal
So I should prio vita over razan?
wild sandal
OK, thanks again krotos, always here when I need an answe
prisma crane
and since it's haste it's solid for surv as well, just not an extra CD like nzoth one is
lol, maybe in legion i was, im so hit or miss lately 😦
but no prob 🙂
vagrant wharf
So Sigil or Butcher's for second trinket for m+
prisma crane
butchers unless you need the extra CD
crit is more dmg and it's free parry when it procs
vagrant wharf
Ya even in 17-18s i don't see needing that extra CD that much right now
I rarely use it on the tank buster just wasn't for sure if i was thinking right
vagrant wharf
Seemed kinda dumb to use it just for one obi really
prisma crane
its prob decent in KR
vagrant wharf
It was nice in Shrine too
prisma crane
and on a few tyr bosses*
but its again related to how you feel about survival
if the extra CD isnt used the trinket is effectively a STR stat stick only
vagrant wharf
It helped alot in shrine this week, but outside of that it was meh i guess I literally just got the butcher's so figured I'd see
prisma crane
yup
vagrant wharf
Also why is vita > wrathion trinket?
prisma crane
idk, just sims better
vagrant wharf
Gotcha
prisma crane
prob value and proc rates
vagrant wharf
dope well thanks
prisma crane
mhm
fwiw the vita seems to be MUCH higher
430 sims higher than all other non-coral trinkets
it must proc often
i dont have one so i cant say 😦
prisma crane
i wouldnt
prisma crane
but idk, maybe they changed it
fringe marten
What bug?..getting out of the shadow realm thing?
vagrant wharf
Ill mess around w/ them I forgot I had baranacle and jes howler in my bags
fringe marten
hm...? a mine stuck on something maybe?
maiden ravine
no idea
modern brook
Lol barnacle head
maiden ravine
got a 465 shield out of it
a snap, Sk'shuul Vaz
do I cleanse it
probably
I have better corruptions elsewhere
I STILL haven't timed a ML over 5 yet haha
I despise that place
sharp night
yeah we got stuck on a mine before the final ob this week, went back to die in the tar and found it
maiden ravine
I think it was the same one for us
mage died somehow and when he ran back he activated it
I went from a 460 JY shield to a 465 ML shield from it, so worth it
and fury got an off hand from weekly
I just need to pug a heroic wrathion tomorrow
try to coin a trinket
prisma crane
i'd kill for a vita lol, still have a 445 rezans
trinkets havent been my friend this patch
maiden ravine
same
Only trinket above 445 I've gotten are either PvP, or a Merektha's fang
I have a 460 maledict AND a 455 breach sitting in my bags
sharp night
vita has same uptime as rezan with a much better proc
maiden ravine
I still need to conq cap this week
prisma crane
i have gotten 3 465 big red buttons...
prisma crane
a lot is pretty easy now that ppl have corruption and you can zerk so much
maiden ravine
indeed
you still have people doing 30-40k single target though
during burstsss
Like I can do that on hpal
3 chars done on mythic quest though
last is mage
the one I hate pugging on
oof, the only other person in my guild that ever does a 15 transferred off Stormrage
prisma crane
LFG isnt too bad if you wait long enough
maiden ravine
oh I know, and I can sneak into 10s a plenty using my warriors 1600
I'm torn on next weeks affixes
skittish is barely a thing
but Tyrannical, meh
bursting really depends so much on group
mint badger
Hola fellow warriors, haven’t Prot tanked since BC, but I’m sure I’ll gain some good knowledge from y’all going forward!
prisma crane
hey welcome
@mint badger definitely start with reading through the pins and just giving it a go, a LOT has changed since then but you'll get it 🙂
mental scarab
@hollow agate EV R3 did about 6-8% dmg for me in dungeons
hollow agate
ah so prob keep twilight
cloud dagger
I just recently got a the wrathion trinket and also vita. should I be running both? i just don't see vita proc that often alongside black dragonscale
hidden plaza
anima?
edgy bone
Yeah
Quick question
Is there a BiS trait for the engineering goggles
These are all unorthodox traits
ebon hound
bottom right one
north ridge
Is Ineffable Truth (chance to reduce CD) any good for us? I've got some mastery proc corruption i could cleanse if it is
half carbon
sweet summit
its good
flint cliff
I usually run the primary stat/haste proc trait in engi googles for every spec (pve)
fiery pendant
is there a trinket tier list anywhere for prot?
high sierra
Depends Rehbero
If it's for more dps in dungeons, then bloodmallet
If it's for more tankiness I reckon icyveins had a section on it
pastel vector
prot war have any profit from leech stat?
amber siren
it heals you but it's not something you attempt to stack
pastel vector
chant for weapon worth to use? or go force multiplier?
amber siren
force for sure
pastel vector
thx
fiery pendant
@high sierra ty
high sierra
@ionic fern somebody said you should not attempt to stack leech, what is your opinion on this?
sweet summit
leech isnt worth anything
if you get it cool
but dont drop ilvl/better corruptions for it
tame garden
ionic fern
If you get it on your highest ilvl piece it's solid.
Aight, lemme rephrase it.
"Maybe only on rings if it also has good stats".
tame garden
amber siren
tame garden
Thank you mwahi, very cool!
tawny bluff
is VoS (r3) better for major than MoLD(r2)? im mostly raid focused and only do M+ to get my weekly chest
VoP*
cyan oar
How much corruption would you recommend as tank? just got a phat 465 ring with TD rank 3, 75 corruption is a lot xD
brittle owl
i usually run sub 60 in almost all content
its up to you
it's an entirely personal choice
whatever you feel comfortable with is fine
cyan oar
thing from beyond kinda hurts though, and as tank u get them often
brittle owl
they're not that big of a deal tbh
in raids you can just stun them easy
in m+ you can cloak dispel, or in bigger packs you're rolling something else anyway to mitigate it
amber siren
you can run higher corruption on easier content or you can deal with it easily
general rule of thumb is if youre progging dont run over 40
but thats not hard & fast
wary lantern
is it meme?
amber siren
they're very bad
sweet summit
vita+scale imo
tame garden
Vita + scale is pog
sweet summit
you are pog
wary lantern
noice
amber siren
gore might have a place on necrotic weeks if you wanted the extra parry
wary lantern
okay, thanks
cosmic harness
I have 460 vita, 460 dragonscale and 465 jes' howler?
Is Jes' Howler a good idea to replace any of those 2?
Or should I stick to vita+dragonscale for m+?
amber siren
jes is good if youre needing the trinket to survive a certain high damage window
other 2 would be higher dps
mortal brook
I would only use jes if theres a fire mage in group. the other two are higher budget and will give you better avg results
arctic sedge
so it's a wise idea to use dps trinkets for m+?
amber siren
the faster mobs die, the faster the run goes
obv theres a balance between dps and surviving
arctic sedge
ah right
sick sentinel
99% of the playerbase can run dps trinkets
arctic sedge
got a jes howler (465), dragon scale and jar at 460
sick sentinel
but once you get higher in keys, tank trinkets start becoming crucial in certain situations to your survivability and the flexablity of your healers damage vs yours
arctic sedge
oh okay
mortal brook
but even then, sometimes a haste trinket is just giving you better results cuz its better AM uptime than the hps a tank trinket would give you. entirely situational
sick sentinel
So you're saying a healer having to heal you more, with you kiting more because of not having a tank trinket like the n'zoth to cover your drop of mitigition or lack there of with sac/bark is better because you get like 200 extra haste maybe as your total average uptime then them allowing themselves to fully nuke with all their offensive abilities
This season is the season of what one shots the tank
corruptions carry damage
and you staying alive what matters
N'zoth trinkets also scale with the corruption value in the obelisks, making it entirely more useful also
hpals do like 40-70k now
and having to heal you fucks them
This isn't season 3
But like I said. 99% of the playerbase can run double dps
I'm saying, the higher the key you go; the better the healers you get most likely
the more value you get from a better healer than your small 200 haste uptime and a giant drop of mitigation on higher pulls and obelisk defensives
amber siren
mortal brook
yes, situationally, better overlap of AM (not to mention what else haste is giving you, including higher rage gen for IP) can offer stronger sustain, higher AM overlap so there ISNT a drop of mitigation, and less incoming dmg for a warr than an hps trinket would offset. and vita avg is closer to 450 than 200, btw. you also have excellent points for when a high absorb can pay off better also.
sick sentinel
I'm talking about rezans, and dragonscale
it's about 200 haste about overall throughout the dungeon
mortal brook
my apologies, should have clarified.
sick sentinel
depending on uptime
vita is a big haste stack
you can run vita + n'zoth trinket
that's fine
mortal brook
totes, good combo
sick sentinel
but running two, offers marginal increase
compared to the high absorb + external value
from things that could one shot you
and covers mistakes
in a key
while the haste doesn't
the am increase is like
1 second more
lmao
from haste
tame garden
Nzoth trinket doesnt exist
Me and cotank bonus roll every week on 2 chars
Never seen it
tame garden
tame garden
Ya
sick sentinel
under 35 corruption also
sick sentinel
I'm 472
strong forum
64k here
sick sentinel
With what corruption
sick sentinel
ah coral and vita
tame garden
I love how many people cried about how important mythic raiding would be this tier
And look at nome
strong forum
Given how much simpad is t3 is, 58k is good
sick sentinel
I have t3 is
strong forum
I stopped raiding in late EP, this is just snagging ez loot okay
strong forum
8.3 is the best patch to not raid
sick sentinel
just get lucky
strong forum
Big clapper
strong forum
TD 4
tame garden
Ye for sure
strong forum
"haha ye for sure, the bear said. Capping at 50k overall" - narrator
sick sentinel
not clapping 90k in 2020 🤔
tame garden
I do clap
😡
But no I dont think my bear can do 90k overall :(
But that's why I have a prot alt :)
tame garden
😭 stop bully
mortal brook
wow get spegged D:
tame garden
@exotic spoke help
exotic spoke
Whats up Speg?
tame garden
I'm being bullied
exotic spoke
no roobully
tame garden
sweet summit
rose furnace
The DH tank in our raid advised the prot warriors in our guild to stack as many bloodsport traits as possible just for Ny'alotha
amber siren
rose furnace
What do I prioritize for raid? Just damage traits?
strong forum
It's not run anymore if you look at top logs
rose furnace
Top LOGGS
I haven't been looking at prot stuff for the raid
I only tank M+ as offspec and that's even a meme
but I might get put in tonight
strong forum
Just stay as you are in m+
rose furnace
wack
strong forum
Nothing changes
strong forum
Unluck
final mist
🤢
amber siren
exotic spoke
And Sal - he’s a bear. We have to be careful. They can be fragile
final mist
If he was a prot main, he wouldn’t be fragile xd
final mist
tame garden
amber siren
amber siren
picking bear is very -200 iq of u
tame garden
Bear is pog
amber siren
final mist
tame garden
Idk this was my first tier ever raid tanking so wanted a spec I'm comfy on
But turns out raid tanking is giga meme
:)
final mist
Tru
Raid tanking is “I figured out my job in 2 pulls, now I have to wait 73 more pulls for these idiots to figure out how to play soccer”
tame garden
mortal brook
73? You ambitious overachievers
final mist
It’s not ambitious if you have good players
mortal brook
Heck
amber siren
flexing competent raid members
tame garden
I've never been in a competent guild
rose furnace
I yolo'd shoulders
tame garden
Friendship raiding
strong forum
What'd ya get
sweet summit
1k
tame garden
This is why you dont gamble
amber siren
you can gamble like 5 times before you get one piece though
tame garden
What happens when you get trash 5 times
tame garden
You cry
spice yacht
