protection

[brittle owl]

torment

but they're 2 diff things you know that right?

can't compare the two

[strong crown]

I know but I feel like 430 is weak AF

I rather be able to do more dmg and kill shit quicker to actually take less dmg

If that makes sense

[ionic fern]

Then why the question at all.

If all you want is damage.

👀

[strong crown]

Its not all I want

Im just picking greater minds brother

I havent tanked since MoP

Im a dps now

but I am seriously getting an itch

lol

I plan to tank M+s on my offtime

[ionic fern]

I'd take torment as well in that case.

[steady fiber]

Hi all just got 2 options ring and belt (same ilvls) corruptions, one gives more vers 12% and vers proc 350, other leech 3% and 8% any tips what's better ?

bcs im like mmmm 🤔

[strong forum]

Vers

[sweet summit]

Leech isnt worth the downsides of corruption

[strong forum]

Vers actually has offensive benefits, leech is just a minor defensive gain

On top of vers scaling with trinkets and essences

[vapid ibex]

do i still use EV for m+? or should i use mind flay? https://gyazo.com/2bcda52e275c8b46bc2aa86e906f3b6e

[ionic fern]

Sim yourself. Probably still ev.

[vapid ibex]

dungeon slice?

[carmine galleon]

anyone using corrupted gear with void ritual? is it any good at raids?

[maiden ravine]

So I have a +13 td. How hard is that to tank this week?

[remote dawn]

easy 😄

[maiden ravine]

I imagine a rogue to open the trash before second boss is 100% mandatory

Most pulls in there are small and with awakened you can skip the worst bolstering

Last boss is always rng on tyrannical

I'd be ecstatic to 2 chest it. I'll have to try tomorrow

Then wimp out and dps a 15 if I get one

This week was a lot easier affix wise than I expected

[sharp night]

first boss is the most dangerous this week

if the adds aren't getting instacleared they chain spawn explo and then it's gg

[remote dawn]

yea with explosivs

[sharp night]

esp since she spawns waves of them every 15s or so

[maiden ravine]

I just want that 1500 Rio so people will pay me to tank 10s haha

Like hell, I'll tank any 10 you want for 10k on my server, 11s are nicer cause 460 loot obviously

[ionic fern]

Businessman.

[strong forum]

Na i ain't boosting unless it's 80k+

But prices are dropping

So... That's kinda unlucky

[maiden ravine]

Well they charge like 150k for a 10 right now, that's like 30-40 for the 4 carries, but I can't guarantee timing even at 457 and 1200 rio

I still don't know why anyone would pay nearly a token for a +10

[strong forum]

People are lazy
People have alot of gold
People have 0 experience

That's the 3 reasons why people buy boosts

[maiden ravine]

I don't even raid and I'm tanking 11s with ease

[strong forum]

The average player can't complete 10s in time

Let alone 15s

[maiden ravine]

I know half my guild is scared to even try 2s

[ionic fern]

👀

And here i am busting my ass off for a +10. Should just buy a boost.

[left hatch]

i have the opposite problem with my guild. 1/2 of them pull 20k overall and don't know any mechanics and think they deserve (and are capable of) 15s

[sick sentinel]

You sell 15s for 600-1m gold

Did 2 carries and got 800k gold

In just my own prodit

Profit

[ionic fern]

Welp, nvm. Time to boost 15's it seems

[vapid ibex]

anyone doing 15+s that are comfortable running 40+ corruption?

ran a 17 atal with 50 corruption and it costed us the key 😅

[ionic fern]

Haven't tried 40+ yet mostly because i don't have decent enough corruptions for it. 😒

[strong forum]

I'm running 50 corruption in my 17s

[ionic fern]

I did do a 16 KR yesterday and got slowed in 2nd bosses Fire.

[strong forum]

Seems aight so far

[stone lodge]

how does the void ritual buff look guys ?

[glad ridge]

question which closing ring is better the healing ring or the magic shield ring?

[stone lodge]

the haste one

[glad ridge]

if i had it i would wear it

[maiden ravine]

@sick sentinel wow, what ilvl?

[strong forum]

The haste one

Probably the magic absorb would prove to be the most useful

The healing is basically just HPS pad

[solemn crest]

Is twilight deviation going to be better in m+ with the EV nerf?

[glad ridge]

nerf happened already and yes it is

https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#warrior_protection?data_view=corruptions&fight_style=hecticaddcleave

mythics at least

[gaunt dawn]

@ionic fern carry my druid

[ionic fern]

in a 15?

[gaunt dawn]

I'll pay you in tanknotes warrior updates

[ionic fern]

👀

I would but i have a feeling your druid is the wrong faction.

[opal python]

Is there a site like tanknotes that covers m+?

[ionic fern]

@gaunt dawn m+ when

[gaunt dawn]

Soon ™️

That one is for my light mode gang

[soft prairie]

how much haste is too much? i got TD rank 1 on wrists from the chest, but i already have wrists with +9% haste from all sources, that 9% is 4,5% haste for me (i have 2k haste rating)

[left hatch]

too much would be like.. sitting regularly above 100%

id sim if the TD does more and go with w/e makes you pump harder

or even just use both

[soft prairie]

they are on the same piece, if not i would use both 🙂

[left hatch]

well rip

then just sim (:

[crimson furnace]

...any updates as far as what corruption should we start using??

TD and Obsidian skin??

[ionic fern]

Obsidian skin is 2h only.

👀

[crimson furnace]

yay!

ok, good to know

ok, tell me @ionic fern what to use

tell me now

and tell me all of it!

go!

[high crater]

haha 😄

[crimson furnace]

im lost in this fucking corruption games

ffs

so i need some light

in my life

go!!!

[ionic fern]

Wat.

[high crater]

Im just lost, havent played since 8.1 and reinstalled yesterday

[ionic fern]

EV,IS,TD,TA,Haste,Crit

You're welcome.

[high crater]

❤️

[crimson furnace]

❤️

done! ty!

[ruby nexus]

What's TA

[crimson furnace]

the little tentacles

that spwan and do dmg

[ruby nexus]

Ahh

[sharp night]

don't forget gw

[ruby nexus]

I'm afraid to open weekly with prot spec. It's trap

[ionic fern]

Je, GW is decent as well for the corruption it gives.

[safe adder]

Hello everyone, tell me what i have to change in first. Whats the haste cap ? 🧐 https://worldofwarcraft.com/fr-fr/character/eu/hyjal/ranara

[ionic fern]

There is no reachable haste cap.

The first thing you have to change is get your neck to 75.

[left hatch]

take off the plating trinket, its worthless

do you not have like. any corruption? even the free VR bracers they gave in the intro questline?

[safe adder]

Yes i try to rush 75. I have been playing since 1 week

[ionic fern]

[left hatch]

On your helmet Bastion of Might > Heart of Darkness

on shoulders Unstable Flames > elemental Whirl

[craggy harness]

hmm, raidbots acting funny for top gear? not showing all my items

[left hatch]

and on chest you don't need the extra stack of DC and should take BoM instead

as well as Unstable Flames again being the better choice for middle ring

[craggy harness]

nevermind, something wrong with simc paste

[crimson furnace]

im all over that heart of darkness, sorry

bastion + heart

1 D-clash

and GG

im fucking loving heart of darkness

and u should to

cuz ur life sucks

[left hatch]

yeh its really good

but

its not Bastion of Might good

and hes giving up 2 stacks of Bastion for a HoD and a 2nd DC

[ionic fern]

Don't please, okay?
Thanks.

[left hatch]

what i do ):

[crimson furnace]

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/eu/sylvanas/starlion

this is me atm

[mortal pike]

Has anyone played with Ineffable Truth? Is it any good?

[crimson furnace]

rocking ilvl on azerite over everyhting else

@left hatch pls check

touch me and let me know whats up!

[left hatch]

id probably take bloodrite over Bloodsport on chest

cause i really really despise Bloodsport

but im not 100% on how strong Bloodrite is

[ionic fern]

470?

What the fudge.

[left hatch]

and same thing as the other dude

Bastion of Might > Heart of Darkness on your helm

[crimson furnace]

NO!!! pls, NOOOO

😦

do I really have to??

like how bad do I want that BoM?

[left hatch]

you don't have to but its stronger

uhhhhhh like its our most important trait short of 1st DC

oh i didn't look at your essences, this for M+ or raid?

[crimson furnace]

M+

was doing keys last night all night

[left hatch]

CnS major not really worth

flip it for visions

aegis has stronger options unless you're constantly chain pulling

the second you drop below 5-6 targets in combat other things are better and its not worth

and null is lackluster in M+ in general

outside of some pretty niche circumstances

[crimson furnace]

was doing a waycrest with those

16 if i rmember correctly

[left hatch]

mmk waycrest is ok-ish for it ig but idk

if yo'ure dps oriented its very lackluster

in any aoe

and if yo'ure more defensive oriented even WCM or shrine still have HUGE portions where it wont be consumed

[crimson furnace]

😦 i was thinking about dps when using that setup

[left hatch]

so its basically an empty slot

[crimson furnace]

id did finish fwith 53k voerall

[left hatch]

so theissue with it in M+ vs raid compared to other essences

1. it wont be consumed on cd, or nearly on cd like it is in raid fights

where as other essences always provide value

[crimson furnace]

ok, so VIsions in major, coflict smal and what other 2?

[left hatch]

and 2. its a split damage effect so i think in.... 3+ targets most other things overtake it

Sphere and Lucid

[crimson furnace]

ok

[left hatch]

if you play around aegis (like chain pulls, pull into bosses etc) its also a decent pick but

this isn't a week aegis shines

[crimson furnace]

yhea

deff

ok, ty so mcuh!

[left hatch]

np

[crimson furnace]

going to try to get chest in heroic today

get BoM and Heart on that

and leave the head as it is

😄

[left hatch]

no you wanna stack bom

the dream is 3x BoM

[crimson furnace]

ok 😦

[left hatch]

1xDC

and then 2 filler

like just with 445 BoM's it gives ~40% damage increase inside avatar

[ruby nexus]

Aegis doesn't seem too bad for wcm? There's plenty of mobs for pulls

[left hatch]

which has 60+% uptime

plenty of mobs doesn't mean in combat with 6+ targets constantly tho

and tyranical

so its a dead pick on bosses

and with this weeks affixes you can't chain pull

[crimson furnace]

true

i see what ur saying

fucked up there tbh

now that I think about it

[left hatch]

always trust in BoM (:

[crimson furnace]

ok

[left hatch]

clap harder

[ruby nexus]

Yeah only on forti weeks, but I don't think it's bad pick for sth last week with sanguine

[left hatch]

its def not a bad pick if you're aware of it

it just drops in value HARD if you don't play around it

[crimson furnace]

i think the only boss was the tree

that was solo

the rest i had at least 3 stacks of aegis

[left hatch]

yah but, lady wc? only 2 targets

coven is only 3

[crimson furnace]

yhea

[left hatch]

you need 6+

[crimson furnace]

3 is tops

true true

[left hatch]

for it to be on par with others (not even ahead just equal)

[ruby nexus]

Do the infest maggots give aegis stacks

[left hatch]

they should

but they die instantly

so

rip them stacks

[crimson furnace]

it caps at 10s tacks

and atm with what I have

i went up as 28% versa

with full stacks

[left hatch]

yeh with full stacks it great

[crimson furnace]

not goonna use it tho

[left hatch]

issue is you're rarely at full stacks

[crimson furnace]

little uptime

and what u said make way more sense

[left hatch]

where CnS and sphere have 100% uptime 😄

and lucid just means faster/more avatars

[crimson furnace]

true

so: VISION(major) CNS(minor)+LUCID(minor)+Suppresion(minor)

easy!!

lets go!!

my EV got fucked, so now i need to farm TD...

[left hatch]

i was lucky last week

[crimson furnace]

so fucking sad

[left hatch]

got to swap EV2 + searing flames for a TD3+VR1

and EV isn't totally gutted

its still better than any stat proc

[crimson furnace]

yhea....

i was finishing all keys over 40K

no matter the level

did 15;s 16;s and 1 17

[left hatch]

wow even in workshop? thats impressive

[crimson furnace]

and i was blasting

[left hatch]

i was struggling to hit 30k in workshop

[crimson furnace]

really???

[left hatch]

cause theres like.. 0 aoe haha

[crimson furnace]

i hust double pull stuff

[ionic fern]

Double pulling there is like 4 mobs.

[crimson furnace]

u can hide behidn the pillars

when those oozes explode

and get 0 dmg

easy

😄

[left hatch]

yah but thats like the only double pull in the dungeon

only other place is pulling the 2 spiders at the end

everything else is a forced 1 at a time pulls

[crimson furnace]

....

ok so..1st boss: those annoying fuckers

[strong forum]

On Workshop you go ST build

[left hatch]

is only 1 pack

[crimson furnace]

2nd boss: 2 pull till the boss

[left hatch]

then theres the gauntlet which doesn't spawn till you kill

[crimson furnace]

so u split that whol coridor/sewer

[left hatch]

pack before 3rd boss

double pull of spider tanks

and the barest edge of the bridge, you only need 1 pack and then you skip

[strong forum]

Morrison struggling to get 30k what, I hit like 42k or higher

Go Cof Major

And null minor

[left hatch]

yah idk did a 13 pug and noone was much beyond 40k

and i derped and stayed in aoe

[strong forum]

Ye aight

[brittle owl]

in a 13 pug that's not uncommon

[strong forum]

But next time you know, there's only like 4 packs in the entire dungeon

[oblique garnet]

[left hatch]

yah now ik haha

esp on tyrancal

[strong forum]

Cof Major, null minor.
Is what I'd recommend

[left hatch]

treat it like raid, gotcha

[brittle owl]

i workshop you're inting if you build for AoE

[strong forum]

^

[left hatch]

yeh just wasn't thinking

[crimson furnace]

i might have some screenshots on my runs there saved

since I was taking them

[strong forum]

If you've never done it sure

Gotta learn somehow

[left hatch]

^ first run in there (:

[crimson furnace]

to have EV glory days

[strong forum]

Pah

[crimson furnace]

ill sahre some as soon as I am home with you @left hatch

[strong forum]

If you only do alot of dmg in keys because of EV I have bad news for you

[crimson furnace]

got some giga overall dmg

with scuffed essences

:)))

[left hatch]

now you get to do a lot of damage in workshop by stacking Gushing wounds

[brittle owl]

glory days with EV was doing 50-60k overall in the 3 15's ive ever done this season, most of em pretty meme runs

now i gotta work for it

😦

[crimson furnace]

same here

same here

i never saw a gushing wound

corruption

ever

ever

so fuck that

/spit

[oblique garnet]

smh needing EV to do 50-60k dps

[strong forum]

I've been using TD t2 EV t2, so I only lose like 2k overall, I'm fine

Exactly late

You can still manage 60k+

[brittle owl]

yeah but

i wanna meme

😦

[oblique garnet]

I only have haste corruptions on warrior :))

[brittle owl]

can't laugh at people inting while passively killing shit

anymore

[strong forum]

Watch me get GW getikku today

From chest

[brittle owl]

gotta actually keep pressing buttons

[crimson furnace]

GW getikuu is giga

its like double dip big dip 2x dip

easy way!

[left hatch]

i wouldn't mind a GW servent splitter for raid

[brittle owl]

i wouldn't mind a GW servant splitter like, anywhere

[crimson furnace]

same here

:))

i got the weapon from mechagon

475

1st drop

[brittle owl]

even in AoE, the DoT is massive

[crimson furnace]

from chest

think its better than teh splitter

huge uptime

[left hatch]

yeh, but at least last season 3 targets or higher secondaries would win out :/

[crimson furnace]

and overall dmg is nice as well

[left hatch]

compared to splitter dot

[brittle owl]

there's plenty of 3-4 mob pulls in keys

+bosses

so it's not wasted

arguably a net gain overall

[left hatch]

true

[nova gale]

Wait servant splitter actually decent?

[left hatch]

yeh

ST it was actually worth more than 5ilvls for me when i had a 445 of it

[crimson furnace]

got this at 475 ilvl

not sure about the name

its similar to the splitter

no secondary stats

and has a burn proc

high uptime on it

as far as I recall, it does around 3mill overall in +15

[supple pawn]

as a prot warrior using coral. When do i extract it while using it at m+/ST?

[crimson furnace]

i used it with inkpod

si i was poping it for incpod procs

always

other than that

moved on from that combo

gonna get the trinket from wrathion mitic

gonna use it with rezan

in combination

in all fights

for ever

(shadowlands)

[strong forum]

Coral in m+ is finicky to use

At ST 7+ stacks in conjunction with Avatar

In packs, no clue

I just use it on CD / add death and reapply it on the biggest add

[sharp night]

from what i know for highest dps you just apply it to the add that dies next and constantly reapply

never extract

[grand spruce]

how easy/hard is to run visions solo as prot?

horrific visions*

[glad ridge]

they decreased the hp on tanks so easier than it used to be

on mobs*

for tanks*

[hallow phoenix]

I find it very easy to run visions as prot

Can do biiiiig pulls

[grand spruce]

im guessing big aoe damage gear? Ev etc

[ionic fern]

I've always done them as prot with ST TrinketS/essences.
Just pull the whole area, kill everything and do the things needed. Rinse and repeat in other places.

[hallow phoenix]

Yeah I run CoF

[ionic fern]

CoF+Cyclo for me.

[hallow phoenix]

I do double haste trinkets but might swap to inkpod

Shouldn't matter too much what you run

[strong forum]

Inkpod eh

Cyclo is insanely good

[hallow phoenix]

Inkpod still my best trinket after coral for St :(

[strong forum]

Not for visions

[hallow phoenix]

In general*

My cyclo only has a 435 yellow card and I haven't touched it in a while

Cyclo + inkpod sounds promising tho

I wish Vita charged simmed high for me but if it ever drops I think I'll be trading it away

Seems to pump for everyone else

[craggy harness]

So, Rising Heat is something i can spell deflect... but I don't understand how the logs keep track of it

seems like 99% of them got deflected, but one tick got through?

[hallow phoenix]

What is rising heat

[craggy harness]

the debuff from pillars not being destroyed

sorry, my bad

[hallow phoenix]

On wrathion

[craggy harness]

yeah. brain way ahead of my hands

[hallow phoenix]

I didn't even know it could be deflected

[craggy harness]

i'm not 100% sure, but threw it up during enrage

and i assume that was what deflect was about

[grand spruce]

would elemental whirl or blood siphon be generally better?

[strong forum]

Both are kinda eh

[grand spruce]

third options carapace

[hallow phoenix]

I go with whirl

[strong forum]

Ye same

[hallow phoenix]

Risen that seems like some weird fluke or spaghetti code if one got through mid reflect

But maybe one of the log geniuses can give you a more satisfying answer

[craggy harness]

i'm guessing spaghetti fluke, there were a lot of pillars by the end

53 occurences of deflect per tick

lol

[glad ridge]

is thhere an add on for spellreflect?

[ebon hound]

depends what you want with the spellreflect

there's a wa that adds the damage it does to your details meter

[glad ridge]

just somethng to tell you when you can sr an ability

[ebon hound]

This weakaura is in the #268491842637660160 : https://wago.io/zcY0ZrS0d

I haven't used it personally

[glad ridge]

thx

[left hatch]

theres also the google doc you can find there as well that lists all the notable reflects

and you eventually just memorize what can/can't be

and whats more high-value to reflect

[sterile mantle]

Is 35 corruption as a tank to much for raid progression

[brittle owl]

no\

sub 40 is perfectly fine

[sterile mantle]

We are currently on vezina heroic

[brittle owl]

lol you can run 70 on hc

[sterile mantle]

Vexiona

[brittle owl]

p sure people have run more than that actually

it's mostly up to you

[high sierra]

I had 80 on hc last week

[brittle owl]

follow your heart ❤️

[sterile mantle]

Dodnt know how.much boss moved there was in later fighta

Movement

[supple glacier]

Is good the 50% reduce coldown corruption??? And what is the best currupt for m+??

[high sierra]

depends Kflax, what for

big aoe dps? st dps ? surva?

[sterile mantle]

I'm bummed cause I've got 2 good rings with good corruptions(one is r3 ev) but have to break up my mechagon set

[tame garden]

Just best

[supple glacier]

Surva and aoe

[sterile mantle]

Debating on if losing the almost 200bhaste will hurt that bad

[high sierra]

in overall I would just use TD 3

[sterile mantle]

I can post more when I get home lol at work.

[supple glacier]

Ok but what about the 50% cd reduction??

[sterile mantle]

Will ask then :)

[high sierra]

you should sim yourself to check how much it gives you Kflax

but on bloodmallet it says 2k in aoe

so I would guess not that much

[supple glacier]

But work on shield wall and last end??

And avatar?

Or only on avatar

I have 2 try some

[exotic spoke]

Last I heard it doesn’t have a great proc rate (Ir it’s the proc that reduces All CDs by 50% more for 10 seconds)

[supple glacier]

Oh that’s bad

[high sierra]

wan't it 1ppm?

[exotic spoke]

About that

[high sierra]

that's real bad

next to that sometimes my twilight devastation proc 3 times in 5sec and the pack disappear

[exotic spoke]

But it was also bugged for melee so I don’t know if since the fix it’s better

[supple glacier]

The TD is good but for us proc 250k crit for dh 800k 🤣

[high sierra]

yeah but have you seen a dh in a big key?

[exotic spoke]

I mean I see 250k crit on T2 so yeah.

[high sierra]

it's not fun to watch

[formal vine]

is strength of the warden rank 3 worth it with the damage increase?

[left hatch]

no

[exotic spoke]

And if it happens during last stand it’s better

[left hatch]

3% more health is super insignificant increase to TD/EV

unless you're talking major, in which case even more of a resounding no

[supple glacier]

Yeah but I see a dh 35% or her dmg and is the first dmg is TD and like 800k crit TD was insane on a 14

[exotic spoke]

At 700k hp it’s 21k more health. With T3 Td that’s just under 4K more damage

They stack Vers if I remember

[high sierra]

yeah Kflax but they die just after that big crit so thats a no no for me

[supple glacier]

Y I know! But wtf!!

[left hatch]

50% increase for 6s that only happens once every 2mins... compare to VoP... which gives a massive increase to avater which is baseline 20% damage increase, and with 3 445 BoM's is an additional 40% increase from mastery

[exotic spoke]

Have a log of that kflax

[left hatch]

(and thats ignoring the increase to TC)

[supple glacier]

Good shit Morrison

[left hatch]

(im talking about warden, not your TD debacle (: )

[tame garden]

Bless TD

[supple glacier]

Oh well 😔

[left hatch]

and im a bit skeptical if DH's have enough verse in their kit to make a single hit of TD go for 400k

unless you're talking about it crit multiple targets for 800k total

[supple glacier]

No no

[left hatch]

in which case we already hit harder per target when it procs

[supple glacier]

A single one

Do 800k bro

[exotic spoke]

Oh I agree.

Do you have logs?

[supple glacier]

No it appen last nite

[left hatch]

i get its 1 TD. but was it single target? or into a pack

[supple glacier]

No the details say max critt 830k lower 400k

[exotic spoke]

There’s something else going on that caused that to do so much damage

[supple glacier]

Becouse they stack hp whit mob

And versa

And you have 800k

[left hatch]

havoc never has as much health as a prot

[supple glacier]

No they have a talent

More enemy more hp

Like 1.3m life

[exotic spoke]

1M hp means 180k hit with TD3

[tame garden]

👀

[exotic spoke]

Before vers and shit

[tame garden]

I want my TD to do 800k

[left hatch]

even double checked, theres no talent that increases havoc's hp per target in combat

much less above 1m health

[supple glacier]

Bro belive or not he got 1.3m hp

Or is an azerite

I dunno

[tame garden]

My bear only 920k :(

Nerf dh

[hollow kernel]

u sure u are talking about havoc not vengeance.

?

[tame garden]

Obv veng

[supple glacier]

We switch role on a junk 14

[left hatch]

-_- so it was vengeance

lol

[supple glacier]

And he do 42k overall

[left hatch]

thats more believable, meta gives you giga helath

[hollow kernel]

:)

[exotic spoke]

Oh so he had 10% more health from the bots too

[tame garden]

Ah

Junkyard is cheaty key

[left hatch]

even with impressive TD cheese, 42k overall isn't that impressive compared to prot in Junkyard

[supple glacier]

Most dmg 35% TD for max critt 830k on a single mob

[left hatch]

you can do that without corruptions

[rapid tide]

42k overall is far from impressive tbf

[hollow kernel]

well.. depends on ur gear key level and affixes..

[rapid tide]

Maybe if you pull super slow

[left hatch]

^

like you can do that w/o corruptions and without bots

[rapid tide]

And even way less for junkyard

[left hatch]

junkyard is great for padding

[exotic spoke]

14 last week. Bots also scale so shock bots 🙂

[rapid tide]

Ye. Like 45-50k on normal dungeons without insane corruptions is what I assume is decent atm for our protw tanks.

[left hatch]

and you can mega pull cause no bolstering

well not mega but

more than you can this week (:

[hollow kernel]

this week is total garbage

[wooden radish]

@warm plinth hi

[exotic spoke]

@wooden radish hi

[left hatch]

but yah don't fixate on 'omg he did 102512512512512312 damage in one proc of TD'

[wooden radish]

@exotic spoke hello.

[left hatch]

when you have this handy button called thunderclap

[wooden radish]

i better enjoy chatting here while it lasts. @ionic fern threatened to mute me 😦

[left hatch]

that instantly makes you establish dominance in AOE dps amoung tanks

[tame garden]

Wow why would he mute you

[exotic spoke]

Mwahi wouldn’t do that. Mwahi is a kind person

[warm plinth]

@wooden radish 👋

[wooden radish]

because he's thin skinned and can't handle THE MEMES

[ionic fern]

[tame garden]

@ionic fern

[ionic fern]

👀

[left hatch]

eyyy he did it

[tame garden]

👀

Grats

Huge

[ionic fern]

It gets even better

I got leech on my druid

[tame garden]

:sadbear:

[ionic fern]

Wdym

Best bear

[tame garden]

My war is eating all my corruption luck

[gaunt dawn]

Maut polearm fixed for bear

🙂

[tame garden]

It's still bad isnt it

[gaunt dawn]

You're still bad 😡

Idk I havent simmed

[tame garden]

[gaunt dawn]

Sounds like a job for faide

Or pumps

[tame garden]

Does it sim properly

[gaunt dawn]

Who knows

[tame garden]

True lmao

[wooden radish]

@ionic fern does the maut weapon effect spawn on any 1 handers? i would like it on my prot warrior.

[gaunt dawn]

I ain't looking into tank apls again

I did my part putting coral and inkpod in last tier

Someone else's job now

[tame garden]

Well it still sims less than echoing void

If it is implemented properly

[ionic fern]

@wooden radish be a gamer and swap weapons.

[grizzled glen]

Hows EV after the nerfs?

[left hatch]

better than stat procs

middle of pack for damage procs

[grizzled glen]

RIP

So TD is preferred now for keys I’m guessing?

[left hatch]

yup

way better in aoe

and roughly equal in ST

(in terms of dps per corruption)

[tame garden]

Bless TD

[warm plinth]

God bless us Spegryone

[exotic spoke]

God bless @tame garden

[raw turtle]

i got from my random 475 chest (mechanized plate chasse) so should I pick clockwork heart or callous repraisal?

[exotic spoke]

What’s clockwork heart do?

[raw turtle]

Once per minute while in combat, gain 348 Haste, Critical Strike, Mastery, and Versatility for 12 sec.

it's 402 at 475

[left hatch]

not amazing but sounds much better than callous 😄

[warm plinth]

I'd use heart

[exotic spoke]

Agree

[raw turtle]

sorry another question, OP or unstable flame, i already have one OP.

[left hatch]

kinda feelycrafty

with the nerf they're pretty comparable

and both scale well with the good corruptions

[tame garden]

Pick whichever icon you like more

[exotic spoke]

Pretty much. In a vacuum you can flip a coin and won’t be too wrong

[left hatch]

^ the only thing that would make one markedly better than the other is if you were running a %haste/%crit corruption

in which case lean in for that %increase

[exotic spoke]

Yup.

[oblique garnet]

UF imo better for m+ atleast

[exotic spoke]

There are now 7 items on the azerite vendor random table right? At least for chests?

[oblique garnet]

Yes

[warm plinth]

You don't need to yell Late

[oblique garnet]

[exotic spoke]

Thanks Late. But what Ghash said.

Guess it’s time to start saving towards what I want for m+

[winged glen]

As prot warrior should i then pick Bastion of Might over ilvl when it comes to m+ ?

[exotic spoke]

No

Your first DC is worth about 15 ilvls but that’s it

[tame garden]

Ilvl is giga for tanks

[exotic spoke]

Otherwise you take Ilvl

[winged glen]

its only 15 ilvl upgrade thats why... and all the tanks i see got 3x BoM

[exotic spoke]

You should still take the 15ilvls. And BoM is really prevalent on new pieces and really good for us

[tame garden]

Bom is on every raid piece

Very easy to stack this tier

[warm plinth]

*if you raid

[winged glen]

Yea true 🙂

[tame garden]

I cant imagine playing wow but not raiding

[exotic spoke]

Imagine not raiding and only doing M+ on a horde HDH

[tame garden]

You're a hero ghash

[oblique garnet]

Raiding is fun

[warm plinth]

I do the hard things

Like playing havoc

[oblique garnet]

imagine not having 2 characters already at 470+ 🙂

[exotic spoke]

I’d add a caveat Late.

Raiding is fun with the right people / guild

[warm plinth]

Late no bully man, fuck

[exotic spoke]

Easy Late. To heck with alts

[warm plinth]

Legit been doing M+ constantly and

[oblique garnet]

my monk is 475

[tame garden]

Ghash my war alt is bigger than your dh

[oblique garnet]

thats almost worse than my warlock which i unbenched yesterday ghash

[warm plinth]

I have gotten approximately 8,318 pairs of gloves since the season started, including in all of my M+ caches

[tame garden]

[warm plinth]

My crown achievement has been an overclocking bit band

Which I gave to our warlock

[exotic spoke]

I’ve gotten two rings and two bracers. Had to cleanse one ring

[cold cosmos]

I'm at a silly 14 pieces of corruption gear but I only ever wear one because TD3 <_< Keeping the others just in case that nerf actually happens

[exotic spoke]

Sorry one bracer*

[warm plinth]

My luck has been very few drops, and the drops I have gotten were not an upgrade, including multiple 465 rings, a 460 belt, and a 450 trinket (lul 435 inkpod)

#DPSLife

[grand spruce]

Is Ev rank 3, which is 1% now, a decent corruption for mythics?

[oblique garnet]

Got this on my warrior

[tame garden]

👀

[strong forum]

Raiding is bad if your raid is bad / if you don't enjoy the company / if you don't like people

[exotic spoke]

That’s pretty fricken good

Other than no haste 🙂

[cyan oar]

Void ritual good for prot?

[strong forum]

Yes @grand spruce its still 5k dps

[oblique garnet]

200 extra mastery from avatar alone

[exotic spoke]

Yup. Plus a socket and a leech tertiary is never bad

[strong forum]

No haste tho

[oblique garnet]

yeah

[exotic spoke]

I see 50 haste there what are you talking about Nome

[oblique garnet]

110

with enchant 😉

[exotic spoke]

Boom

[strong forum]

110 haste every ring has

[cold cosmos]

Any guesses on when TD gets hit by the nerfbat?

[strong forum]

So that's derogatory

😏

[exotic spoke]

Every ring doesn’t have a hole yet

[strong forum]

I wouldn't use a ring without a hole unless it's mechagon rings

[tame garden]

Td nerf isnt for 2 weeks at least hopefully

[exotic spoke]

@cold cosmos Nope. And as it’s really the only decent aoe Corruption I have I hope not for a while

[tame garden]

So we can abuse it next week

For the big push

[exotic spoke]

@strong forum what about a 475 with haste and t3 IS

Next week looks soooooo good

[cyan oar]

When 1 void ritual procs does it proc them all? I have 4 vr at 35 corruption each

Not saying I'm gonna equip it all, obviously not

[exotic spoke]

I don’t know aladrosa.

[strong forum]

Yeah no thanks riki

I have 475 t3 IS gloves

That im not using

:)

[exotic spoke]

Oof

[sweet summit]

[strong forum]

Rip

[exotic spoke]

I think that ring has a hole too but I can’t use it in M+

Since I’m stuck using 430 T2 TD

Bracers

[cold cosmos]

It's silly how far ahead TD3 sims above all of my other corruption choices, even in ST

[strong forum]

I'm semi lucky with 445+s TD t2 pants

So I can throw some other corruptions in there

As arms im using 460 boe ring with t3 haste proc

[cold cosmos]

T3 TD and healers get scared if I get > 39 corruption so... it's the only corruption I have on until next week

[strong forum]

I'm running 50 :)

At all times

It's fine tbh

Just have to know when to reflect/use cloak/stun the thing

[cold cosmos]

Yeah

[lucid dew]

according to bloodmallet now it seems like infinite stars is the way to go

in like almost all content

[carmine wadi]

I got a belt 475 with mastery proc on it. how is it?

T3 proc

[exotic spoke]

I don’t see how that’s possible jcryptik. In m+ you’re really never getting the full benefit of it

[lucid dew]

its showing higher dps on hectic add cleave but i guess yea thats right thats not necessairly for short fights right?

[strong forum]

Hectic add cleave isn't 5-6 targets for 1.5min

Hectic add cleave is sometimes a couple adds

[warm plinth]

Imagine probably having to work a changed schedule at work just for next week and thus missing most of the second burst/volcanic week in a row

[cold cosmos]

I love TD in M+.... except maybe in WCM when it starts pulling random mobs from behind closed doors

[tame garden]

Dont look at hectic add cleave for m+ lol

[exotic spoke]

It’s also dependent upon Ilvl of the IS piece

[carmine wadi]

So now I could switch my 460 weapon from wrathion to 465 from mechagon and wear the proc belt...

[lucid dew]

thats true riki

i have rank 3 so thats what i was comparing

[exotic spoke]

But rank 3 on what Ilvl?

[warm plinth]

Yeah HAC is not what you want for M+. Do multi-target patchwerk fights if you want to sim somewhat close to a trash pack

[lucid dew]

on a 465 ring

[exotic spoke]

That’ll do less damage than the rank 3 I have on my 475 ring

[lucid dew]

thats true

[exotic spoke]

So it’s hard to say

[warm plinth]

Dungeon slice is also not ideal because it heavily prioritizes single target (for example, it recommends devastator a lot lol)

[exotic spoke]

But I’d still do TD for M+

[carmine wadi]

guys are the bracers from mechagon workshop good?

missing secondaries but there is a use effect on it

[exotic spoke]

Not really good

[warm plinth]

The use effect is kinda meh

[carmine wadi]

kk sad :/

[exotic spoke]

Damnit. I knew I forgot something last night. Didn’t sim and won’t have time to do it today before raid 😦

[carmine wadi]

hmm would you go with 465 weapon or with 460 one from wrathion?

[exotic spoke]

Depends on your other corruptions / content. Defensively the 465 weapon

[warm plinth]

It takes like 30 seconds to sim 🤔

[exotic spoke]

Ghash, i literally log into a summon into the raid since I’m usually a few moments late

[warm plinth]

Ah

What are you trying to sim?

[exotic spoke]

And I’d have to wait in queue for it to process

[hallow phoenix]

Sim at work

Ezpz

[sick sentinel]

Never sim

Guess

[exotic spoke]

Don’t have the Simc copied over

[sick sentinel]

Play incorrectly

4head

[carmine wadi]

hmm ok https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/xtnrQgfyoMpoTkBUHkahAH

[exotic spoke]

Yeah I’ll be guessing a little tonight. EV on some bosses with Mecha rings and Is on other bosses

Don’t patchwork 40 seconds

[sick sentinel]

Your choices of corruption make me sick

[tame garden]

I'd run IS on maut and shadhar

[carmine wadi]

it´s changing my 475 chest with IF/shield slam against the 465 with BoM/DC

[tame garden]

Maybe wrathion

Rest EV

[hallow phoenix]

Just IS on wrath, Maut, skittra(?), Raden, xanesh, dog, and maybe ilgy

[carmine wadi]

how should i sim?

[sick sentinel]

But what if you get a juicy EV proc on the pillars

[tame garden]

I assume riki means mythic

[hallow phoenix]

Idk I've seen IS pump on wrath

[tame garden]

Not xanesh tho

[exotic spoke]

That’s the though Speg. Not sure if heroic reclear is tonight or not. Hoping we do mythic

@carmine wadi probably about 5 minutes

[tame garden]

So many adds

[warm plinth]

Super short sims can give you wonky results

[hallow phoenix]

Oh I havent tried mythic xanesg

[sick sentinel]

Don’t

[hallow phoenix]

Didn't know there were adds

[warm plinth]

Because raidbots will pick up on "breakpoints" that don't actually exist in the real world

[carmine wadi]

5t 5 minutes?

[exotic spoke]

I hope we start shifting more time in mythic. 2/12 right now with almost no time in there

[tame garden]

Ya mythic xanesh is a shitshow

[carmine wadi]

or dungeon slice?

[tame garden]

Every time you kick the ball it spawns an add

[hallow phoenix]

Fun

[sick sentinel]

Mythic xanesh is the wild Wild West

[exotic spoke]

Single target 5-10 minutes for raids.

[sick sentinel]

There are no rules, there is no organization

Just a bunch of monkeys shooting and scoring

[tame garden]

Yeah riki we stopped doing heroic during raid times

[warm plinth]

Do not do Dungeon Slice either. It over-prioritizes single target

[tame garden]

Heroic is optional extra day now

[sick sentinel]

^^

[exotic spoke]

Guess it’s EV, devastator, Mecha rings, inkpod, coral, worldvein(?) major is what I’ll go with most of it

[hallow phoenix]

My raid just does last two + sometimes raden

Before heading into mythic for the week

[tame garden]

I would do last 2 heroic

But rl doesnt want to

[exotic spoke]

@tame garden as I’m no longer an officer, since joining a new guild, I just sit back and enjoy the ride.

[tame garden]

Oh right

You just taunt when told

[sick sentinel]

We sell aotc on tuesdays for people who want last two bosses

[exotic spoke]

I’d be pushing for heroic on offnight

If I was

[sick sentinel]

Then mythic wed thurs

[exotic spoke]

I show up, hand out loot to people who need it, and try to figure out some parse cheese

[sick sentinel]

I haven’t started being a parse goblin yet

[hallow phoenix]

79 corruption is the real cheese

[sick sentinel]

I’m giving myself 6/12 before I start absolutely cheesing

[exotic spoke]

It’s heroic. After first / second kill its parse time

In mythic it’s different

[sick sentinel]

Heroic is afk time

If I have to think I am not going

Heroic parse is dead to me

[exotic spoke]

I’m newish to the guild. I need to continue to make a good impression even though my trial is over + do things with people outside my M+ group

[hallow phoenix]

I actually stopped doing m+ with my guild because almost all of them have literally zero clue what's going on in m+

Feels bad I'm the only tank that's on for keys

[sick sentinel]

Those are the best gamers to run with

Every week I do 1 15 where we list and take the lowest ilvl person that applies. Call it paying my dues for being toxic 90% of the time

[exotic spoke]

My new guild is actually awesome with that. There were a ton of people with 2400+ io from last season. So about equally experienced as my group. There’s a 3k team too.

It’s honestly nice not being the highest group but having people to talk to about it and run with on a day to day basis

[warm plinth]

I like to periodically apply for +2-5s just to give people unexpected carries

[sick sentinel]

Give them an unexpected person to carry?

[warm plinth]

Also it’s fun tanking as havoc since the tanks usually can’t hold aggro

[exotic spoke]

Myself, my rdruid, and my rogue applied to a like + 11 last season (late in the season) and were declined by a solo dps

He said “sorry, I’m not in the mood to be carried”

[warm plinth]

Lmao. Hey props to that’s uh

Guy*

My phone is drunk

[exotic spoke]

We just wanted to hit buttons and blow things up

[sick sentinel]

I was once removed because I showed up riding my hog mount

People really don’t like hawgz riding a hog

He said “nothing personal I just hate that”

[warm plinth]

And you thought you were toxic

Also the hog mount is in my top 5

[sick sentinel]

Now I have a dh names ratboy and he rides the rat

[warm plinth]

I don’t have it though

Too poor to buy store mounts

[sick sentinel]

God me too but here I am

[exotic spoke]

When heroic Arathi came out I joined with 5 people. Then before they queued was removed.

Whispered the leader and said that the top 4 dps would leave if he didn’t invite me back since I joined with them and was the best feared tank.

He ended up inviting me and kicking a VDH that was like 30 ilvls lower than me

[warm plinth]

I have the war forged nightmare but only because it was on sale for like $5

[exotic spoke]

That was pretty@toxic

[warm plinth]

Eh

That’s toxic by proxy

[sick sentinel]

I love toxic wow stories

[warm plinth]

Doesn’t really count

[exotic spoke]

I also try to get into pug raids (when I need to) by claiming I’m a better tank than either tank they have and it works about 50% of the time

[warm plinth]

Lol

[exotic spoke]

Especially mid to late tier after I’ve gotten a ton of mythic loot

[sick sentinel]

I will have to admit at times I run pug raids and tell dps if they are below me they are removed even though i am like 40 ilvls higher

[exotic spoke]

Even on my alt warrior. “Heroic geared but 6/8 mythic experienced prot” and they invite lol

[sick sentinel]

And then after every boss there is the great purge

[exotic spoke]

^^

[tame garden]

Smh

[sick sentinel]

Just beat the tank easy

[cold cosmos]

I wouldn't be able to raid with my guild if I did that

[tame garden]

^^

[exotic spoke]

I’m an asshole. I make no effort to conceal it

But I’ll be honest about it - I’m an asshole and won’t tell you otherwise

[sick sentinel]

These are in my past days. I don’t have the time or patience to organize pugs these days

[tame garden]

I beat a couple dps on every boss in first 3 mythic last night

Time for the great purge

[sick sentinel]

Did you remove them

[exotic spoke]

I missed my guilds first heroic wrathion kill (because I was late as I expected)

Rather than pug it I paid to get carried.

I’ll throw money at my problems

[oblique garnet]

Riki is just doodoo dont believe him

[sick sentinel]

My details name is noobs below

If you are below noobs below

What does that make you

[tame garden]

:(

[exotic spoke]

Why are you so mean Late

Why can’t we be friends?

[sick sentinel]

Why can’t weeeee be friieeeendsssss

[exotic spoke]

Thanks Hawgz qtpie

[tame garden]

How do you lose to tank in single target

[exotic spoke]

Easy

[sick sentinel]

Better not die

[exotic spoke]

Undergeared or bad + padding

[tame garden]

Mindboggling

[exotic spoke]

Huge inkpod crits

[sick sentinel]

Oh yeah I am absolutely padding and ignoring all mechanics at all times

[tame garden]

Ppl doing last patch dps

😡

[exotic spoke]

“Strike for doing Season 2 DPS”

[sick sentinel]

On another note why was i in a group with a holy paladin that did 50k overall the other day in a 15 atal

[modern brook]

Oh yeah I am absolutely padding and ignoring all mechanics at all times
@sick sentinel ah yes. Playing prot

[exotic spoke]

HPals pump

[tame garden]

Yeah hpal is

Kinda op

Ngl

[exotic spoke]

@modern brook you have a problem with that QTPie?

[sick sentinel]

Like I know they’re op. But he’s not even optimized

[modern brook]

Bro why do you think I play prot

[sick sentinel]

He could do like 60k+ with good loot RNG

Insane

[exotic spoke]

Cause you’re cute?

[modern brook]

Its true

[cold cosmos]

Wait I'm confused, there's prot warriors that don't pad?

[warm plinth]

Bull is rogue main 😠

Says the havoc main

[modern brook]

Bro dont Doxx me like that wtf

[warm plinth]

😂

[exotic spoke]

Yeah Pinky

[warm plinth]

Look who's doxxing people now

[exotic spoke]

Go ahead tell them Riki isn’t my name. I dare you

[sick sentinel]

Am hawgz

[warm plinth]

He's actually NOTRIKI

[exotic spoke]

Lies and slander

[tame garden]

Probablyriki

[sick sentinel]

I’m changing my characters name to probablyriki

$20 wel spent

[warm plinth]

He already had a toon named that lmfao

[tame garden]

He transferred it

RIP horderiki

[glad ridge]

is the corruption essence evrr a good idea to use?

[tame garden]

Yes

if you need the corruption resist then it's a great idea

[hallow phoenix]

Or if you want 100 heal parse you can steal a healer essence

[modern brook]

Call me madoff cause I'm not resisting any corruption

[glad ridge]

i mean staying under 40 curr ispretty easy i think at lease

least*

[exotic spoke]

Yeah, I transferred it and it’s sitting there. Probablyriki will rise again when I claim my shadowlands boost I think

[modern brook]

Friki

[glad ridge]

hope they give me GLAD STANCE BACK

[warm plinth]

[exotic spoke]

Good for you? I kinda hope they don’t. Glad stance was around for a single expac. It’s not rooted in the foundation of the game.

[hallow phoenix]

i want shield block value on gear back

and SS to scale with it

[glad ridge]

or let me transmog a spear on prot

[exotic spoke]

Insert snarky comment here.

Honestly happy to get shattering throw back. I’ll just wait and see what shadowlands brings

Ok Leonidas

[hallow phoenix]

in legion you could transmog a spear as prot with the fury glyph weaponmaster

shit was tight

[modern brook]

Prot should get 4p t20 again

S h i e l d s l a m

[cold cosmos]

I think my favorite prot pad fight still has to be hellfire assault

Which also makes me wonder how silly our damage would be on Vexiona and Hivemind if prot still had bladestorm

[west kayak]

I miss having Execute.

[exotic spoke]

I enjoyed felhounds in antorus. Prot healing parse :)

Dps wise, probably the conclave or whatever their name was in BoD comes to mind

[hallow phoenix]

felhounds was my favorite cause i was always fire dog

[craggy harness]

i did not enjoy felhounds while learning how to move properly as a tank for the first time lol

[hallow phoenix]

and him the cutest of the two

[exotic spoke]

Just tank both of them yourself for over half the fight 🙂

[hallow phoenix]

then we swapped and parted ways 😦

was tanking both possible on mythic

[exotic spoke]

That’s what happened one pull when my co tank died early. Rezzed. Died a little later and left me to solo tank them on heroic

[craggy harness]

https://tenor.com/view/everythingisfine-itsfine-burning-flame-my-life-going-so-far-gif-5182223

[cold cosmos]

In HFA with my guild, people got excited if even one person topped me in damage <_<

[exotic spoke]

Doubt. But the DPS loved it for their numbers + I did like 1.6M HPS

Healers were bombing me with heals and pretty much ignoring the raid. So inspiring presence did work

[hallow phoenix]

all in all heroic argus was still my favorite fight in legion

Because seeing just how high you can get the stacks was a blast

[cold cosmos]

Ignore Mechanics was great for Argus

[exotic spoke]

Tomb of Sargeras was my favorite raid of Legion

[jovial saffron]

quick question, i did a bit of searching and didn't find a clear answer, i believe i understand the priority rotation fairly well, however when it comes to mitigation, i've found my self overlapping IP and SB. Should I be doing that or should I weave IP in between SB? and when I have no rage for no SB I use Last Stand? m+ is my focus and content of choice

[hallow phoenix]

IP is a rage dump

cast it to prevent yourself from capping rage

[exotic spoke]

SB is your go to Mitigation anytime you’re taking blockable damage - which is the majority of time.

IP is damage smoothing / rage dump / for magic damage

[hallow phoenix]

IP instead of shield block on: Shadow of Zul, Prophet Skitra, last two bosses of motherlode

[jovial saffron]

im using luxthos weakaura package and shit be lighting up like christmas so sometime i just mash all the buttons

[hallow phoenix]

and I think first phase of king mechagon?

[exotic spoke]

So, for example, last two bosses of mother lode - defensively you shouldn’t use shield block ever. You can use it for dps gain, but it won’t provide any benefit to your survivability on the bosses

[jovial saffron]

right because they are magic dmg right

[exotic spoke]

But in all other cases - you’re not wrong for having both up (as long as you have enough rage for another shield block)

[jovial saffron]

ok it felt wrong at times, but sometimes i'm having a big pack full of melee and casters so i'm overlapping and didn't know if i was fucking something up

[cold cosmos]

Stacking SBlock + Last Stand on the other hand should be avoided if possible (assuming you have the talent)

[exotic spoke]

Not at all. You should be overlapping

Even if it’s all melee

Because it’ll help make your damage intake even smoother

[jovial saffron]

has anyone used or experience a better weakaura package for prot over luxthos's stuff he seems to have stuff well put together

[exotic spoke]

Also what Arrhae said is correct. Try to avoid stacking SB and Last Stand.

[west kayak]

@jovial saffron Khakhans

[strong forum]

fucking great

[hallow phoenix]

what wrong nom

[strong forum]

now i have 475 Belt with T3 IS and 475 gloves with T3 IS

both without haste

[hallow phoenix]

use both

[jovial saffron]

right because they are both block and you wanna use last stand when you don't have a SB available right

[hallow phoenix]

capitalize gains

[tame garden]

[strong forum]

fucking bullshit

[exotic spoke]

Yup

[hallow phoenix]

"reeee i have good corruptions" -Nom

[strong forum]

IS is dogshit

[hallow phoenix]

no u

[exotic spoke]

No it’s not lol.

It may not be TD for m+ but it’s not dogshit

[strong forum]

still weaker than TD t2 on my 445 pants