so many warriors are gonna complain
#protection
lusty grotto
exotic spoke
The charge jumping was aids too
sand egret
my fav move was using the mind control helmet in WPVP and sending them into a pack of mobs
exotic spoke
End up further away thanbwhen you started....
sand egret
that shit was fucking priceless
lusty grotto
of course of course blade
you know what i personally miss
when you attacked people in LHC
the guards would charge you
and send you to africa
sand egret
lol
lusty grotto
someone recorded me
yelling at my GL
while i was being charged
i gotta find that video
lusty grotto
i mean not a lot of mages were frost anyway
exotic spoke
I was an axe smith and either miner or (dis)enchanter depending on the day
lusty grotto
it was full of trinket pom pyro nerds though
i suppose frost was the go to for twin emps
so maybe you saw some then
i was engi miner
i changed engi to BS in tbc for the Stunherald
lusty grotto
never went back
warm plinth
Nim's gonna play classic
lusty grotto
NO
modern brook
this isnt a tangent i can get behind
sand egret
yeah he is
modern brook
It doesnt belong here š
exotic spoke
I couldnāt change to stunherald Nim
exotic spoke
I was locked to axesmithing. Fucking pissed me off
lusty grotto
i swapped to BS on TBC
warm plinth
lusty grotto
leveled as swordsmith
then swapped to hammersmith
at the end
(after sapphiron)
exotic spoke
You had to do a quest to be a sword smith or mace smith
lusty grotto
medalla was our GL (he also played DH with us this expansion)
btw that sapphiron wipe
warm plinth
Yeah there were quests for hammer/axe/sword-smithing but you could swap to a different one
lusty grotto
our thunderfury tank moved out of the block at the last minute, made medalla quit
literally everyone raged
broke keyboards/headsets
modern brook
wtf is a sword smith
lusty grotto
that guy was fucking retarded and the only reason he tanked was because he had Tfury
sand egret
TFury was like getting tenure
lusty grotto
blacksmith had specialization (like goblin/gnome on engineering)
sand egret
you just were a sunk cost at that point
lusty grotto
you could go axe, sword, or mace spec
modern brook
big dumb tbh
lusty grotto
every spec had different plans
sand egret
axe, sword, bullshit spec*
lusty grotto
so in tbc stunherald was a mace, which required you to go mace spec
warm plinth
lmao at the yell "This is for you Medalla"
lusty grotto
bull you know who medalla is
you've done keys with him
that was our gl
dwarf priest back then
exotic spoke
@sand egret it wasnāt bullshit until TBC
lusty grotto
he has been missing though i wonder if hes ok, he had cancer a while back and went into remission?
oblique garnet
null barrier in keys was worse than i thought with bursting :/
exotic spoke
Oh? Whyās that
lusty grotto
LMAO
exotic spoke
Did it chain bursting?
lusty grotto
for science late
oblique garnet
no it didnt do much
warm plinth
Bursting probably popping bubble too much
oblique garnet
everything dies around the same time so it has hardly no mobs to proc on
warm plinth
Sad times for Late
weary thorn
anybody know roughly how much AP you get from an EP full clear on heroic? trying to see if I need to grind anymore WQs tonight
honest frigate
Just purposely take magic damage when mobs are alive 4head
āGets bit by retch on purposeā ez
lusty grotto
what dungeon tho
how much total damage did it do late
cause i got some logs of mine
honest frigate
I mean you obviously wouldnāt take null in a dungeon like FH, but shrine, UR, KR, siege, waycrest all good
random urchin
@weary thorn 900 per boss
weary thorn
@random urchin thanks hoss
lusty grotto
it did 5% damage on a WCM i did
honest frigate
Thatās pretty good but null in general is really strong in waycrest on basically all the bosses
Fire clear on Goliath is the weakest one but still good
random urchin
I need to start collecting oscillators. So far behind on my warr. I think Iām 5ish days away from rank 2. Rank 3 going to be a while
weary thorn
I should be able to snag r3 null in about 5-6 days time
Will be happy to have that over and done
autumn sequoia
Which essences you Play in m+ this week ?
warm plinth
Oscillators just need to be more accessible. It's such shit to have a rep grind on top of a mats grind
exotic spoke
Today if Iām lucky or tomorrow if Iām not.
Please be lucky so I have them for ashvane
warm plinth
Good luck
sick sentinel
CoF Rank 3 seems to be my highest simming major, with worldvein as minor. Does anyone use this combination is raid? I usually use VOP.
weary thorn
Isn't worldvein still busted?
strong forum
warm plinth
Pretty sure worldvein assumes like 5 other people are using it so that might be misleading?
lusty grotto
just gotta tweak the sims settings
weary thorn
No I mean like isn't the stacking still fucked up
warm plinth
Oh, idk
weary thorn
Where it wasn't stacking correctly
sick sentinel
ok, I'll give COF and Null a try tomorrow night. Thanks guys!
random urchin
Yeah worldvein stacks still fall off and stall you at 1 stack before going back up due to the buff duration not refreshing right.
So itās a sim trap still
weary thorn
That what I'd thought, but wasn't sure
sand egret
Worldvein is the Versatility of essences. It's dumb, bland, and should just never have existed
random urchin
Yep
remote rose
whats a good amount of verse u need to effectivly raid tank
random urchin
Donāt really need it. Iām at 15 and think thatās too much, Iāve just gotten a lot of vers gear so far.
undone sun
verse is always good, but it wont beat out primary stats and it also wont make between life or death
random urchin
Yeah. Gotta remember the DR portion is half of what your vers is. So for a class with a lot of DR itās kinda meh.
stuck crown
Would using a dagger work well if you are stacking recklessness?
winged grail
Force Multiplier or Quick Navigation on main hand?
stuck crown
Force multiplier until it is fixed
warm plinth
Force typically
stuck crown
But daggers and recklessness guys
warm plinth
No, afaik weapon speed is normalized so you'd just get less damage per hit
analog creek
What recklessness are you talking about?
warm plinth
I think he's referring to Reckless Flurry
floral obsidian
How dependent on healing is Prot this expansion?
I remember prot not having much self sustain
analog creek
It would scale with attack speed, but I dont think the loss of strength would be worth it
warm plinth
This isn't Legion though. No tank really has over-the-top self-sustain anymore. Even DKs aren't self-sufficient for long
In any serious content
warm plinth
Eh, comparable to prot pally probably. But we still have the best mitigation against the majority of the damage you take in M+
stuck crown
Reckless fury yes sorry
analog creek
Best in m+ yes, best damage? That depends on key level
stuck crown
Specifically for mythic assvane parses
warm plinth
Reckless Flurry is fine if you're trying to min/max to get the last % on your parse, but a dagger will not help you.
You lose the str from the weapon, and reckless flurry will do less damage per hit with a dagger since you're attacking faster.
analog creek
Tank output in m+ is largely dictated by a tanks ability to stand in front of things
stuck crown
Ah ok I figured reckless wouldnāt change based on weapon speed
analog creek
I dont know that that is true about reckless flurry scaling
warm plinth
There was a discussion about it a while back and I believe that's what the findings were. I'll see if I can find the conversation.
floral obsidian
Thanks alot guys š gonna try to get back into prot
analog creek
I'll test it later when I log on
stuck crown
Same
analog creek
Most everything else that's 100% right on with the normalization, but being a trait with a locked in damage value I'd suspect it work different
lusty grotto
lmao a dagger
i never knew this would come up again
i mean for intents and purposes go ahead and sim with a dagger
warm plinth
So yeah apparently it does not scale down with a dagger, but you can't cast Revenge using it
And ofc you still lose the str since there's no such thing as a strength dagger
lusty grotto
a large portion of the damage done by RF is devastator
which IS influenced by weapon damage (normalized of course)
warm plinth
What do you mean? They're two different things?
lusty grotto
so i suppose you could find a dagger with equal ilvl of a strength one hander
yes
what i mean is
the RF build includes devastator
there's literally little reason to go RF without it
warm plinth
But Deva doesn't increase the damage RF does that I'm aware, so you're getting the same damage increase either way
undone sun
right, think he was just saying they're synonymous
lusty grotto
yes you're correct ghash
the problem is the people that say dagger are thinking that because you will hit faster, RF will also hit faster therefore contribute more damage
in a given timetable
but RF is only a part of it
for science lets run sims
stuck crown
Yeah Iāll run some sims. But your absolutely right that it would at the very least have to be the same ilvl and i donāt think Iām gonna find a 440 dagger before raid
undone sun
may be wrong but i think there's something about it being normalized between the two picks, vaguely remember it being brought up near the first time RF was discussed
sand egret
can you? like, is a warrior even eligible?
warm plinth
Warriors can use whatever they want
undone sun
basically
sand egret
but where would one get the drop
stuck crown
A guildie
warm plinth
Oh you mean like to loot one
chilly brook
From a rogue
warm plinth
Yeah they'd have to trade one to you
lusty grotto
one sec im setting up a sim
stuck crown
Anyways this all started by looking at Panzerwolfs parse on assvane and his reckless fury is 8% of his damage
sand egret
oh i guess that could work, for some reason i thought you couldnt trade non-elligble shit but maybe that was just azerite
stuck crown
And only like 5% of mine
warm plinth
afaik the only eligibility requirements are that they were present for the kill
stuck crown
And that got me thinking why tf would that be happening
warm plinth
Because I've had a guy trade me an agi trinket before not realizing it was useless to me
sand egret
didnt they implement a safe guard against azerite funnelling
warm plinth
Never raided this expansion so that's out of my wheelhouse ĀÆ_(ć)_/ĀÆ
hallow phoenix
You can't scrap non-plate for residuum
sand egret
ah so its at the scrapper
stuck crown
Right has to be same type and they have to already have a higher or equal ilvl
THANKS METHOD
warm plinth
I mean, it's more like thanks Blizzard
sand egret
lol
warm plinth
They made split runs a thing in the first place
hallow phoenix
What's the status on this dagger sim
prisma crane
isn't reckless flurry a fury specific trait?
warm plinth
The WF guilds are just taking advantage of something that exists
Yeah, but the auto attack damage part works for prot
sand egret
works in prot
warm plinth
It's used for parsing
prisma crane
i didnt realize they worked out of spec
warm plinth
Only a few with semi-generic effects/partial effects
prisma crane
it's dummy proof dps boost if it works...
warm plinth
You have to swap to fury to even activate it
prisma crane
that's fucky
warm plinth
Little bit
hallow phoenix
It's good DPS though
sand egret
there are no class restrictions on specs, only activators
stuck crown
Very good dps
warm plinth
Yeah, there's just not a lot that have meaningful overlap
hallow phoenix
And I once accidentally brought my RF gear and devastator into explosive week and my autos one shot the explosives
prisma crane
hmm
warm plinth
It's only good for ST DPS though. BV is still better for AoE/M+
lusty grotto
That you haven't heard about rf at all
prisma crane
i see ppl type it, never cared enough to look into it
stuck crown
2.5k dps for Panzerwolf on assvane, only 1.3k dps for me tho
sand egret
doesnt the bladestorm arms trait work with Ravager
prisma crane
i only pug shit atm, so im at the mercy of the group's skill but yea
stuck crown
So why would it be higher for someone else
prisma crane
it's interesting for sure
warm plinth
I believe so, but it's not meaningful overlap
hallow phoenix
@stuck crown he might have more strength or vers?
warm plinth
Wait, really? o_O
sand egret
yeah
warm plinth
That's weird af
sand egret
mega deep wounds baby
hallow phoenix
I remember seeing my RF sim better with stuff like worldveins and str proc trinkets
prisma crane
i have it
warm plinth
I mean I knew BoM worked but surprised the IP happens lol
prisma crane
might have to try it
lusty grotto
You didn't know ghash
You do gigantic bleeds as arms
Still not enough to make it that competitive but still
Oh you knew
oblique garnet
š”
hallow phoenix
3x Lord of war Warbreaker is still the best aoe taunt in the game
prisma crane
and AA speed is affected by haste or no? i feel like they've changed it over the years and idc enough to check
hallow phoenix
I think yes?
prisma crane
that's how i feel but i have no certainty
hallow phoenix
Not online atm or I'd check
barren torrent
Yes it is if my memory isn't fooling me
prisma crane
glad we're all certain that we aren't certain lol
barren torrent
99% sure tho
Remember my AS increasing or decreasing with Into the Fray stacks
sooo
sand egret
I'm 87% sure that 96% of what was said is correct.
remote rose
if im having problems keeping IP up should i be running lucid?
barren torrent
qwik math
prisma crane
keeping IP up doesnt give us enough info
hallow phoenix
Less revenge
prisma crane
IP isn't something meant to be always up
sand egret
could be a PEBKAC
prisma crane
it just lowers dmg taken
prisma crane
focus on minimizing non-free revenge casts and dont miss SS procs
value SB over IP though unless the damage is not blockable
dont overlap SB with LS
chances are if you're trying to spam IP you're compensating for other shortcomings
or just simply doing something more difficult than you're prepared for, which can happen
@remote rose are you talking raids or M+?
and the first thing i would check is your SB uptime over IP uptime
IP uptime is meaningless
warm plinth
I really think this is a case of someone thinking IP is the important thing and SB you just press whenever.
warm plinth
Yeah I was about to say where tf is the Deva damage lol
warm plinth
Wait, doesn't that mean it's a 1200 loss, not 2k.
warm plinth
It went up 1655 with Deva, then went down 1200 with the dagger added
lusty grotto
its 2k over BV
warm plinth
Still, that's a big loss lol
stuck crown
Ouch ok
So then my next question is
. Is someone else really just autoattacking that much more than me? Why would reckless fury be so much more % of someone elseās damage than mine if we both have 3 instances of it
stuck crown
Yeah one second
lusty grotto
are you both tanking in the log?
warm plinth
Do they have higher azerite?
prisma crane
i simmed myself with super awesome gear except my neck because idk how to edit my neck in gear compare and i got some nice damage. i think if i had 65 traits and access to all rank 3s i'd add a couple thousand more. I wish i could get all 455s with sockets.
warm plinth
Yeah but if he's using 430 azerite and they're using 445, they'd do more damage with RF
warm plinth
Not sure it'd be that much though; that's significant
warm plinth
Oh, no RF in these sims. I was like where tf does it show that
lusty grotto
mine is lower cause i put null in and it probably is fucky with a patchwerk since there probably isn't a lot of magic damage
warm plinth
I don't think null takes into consideration x magic damage taken in sims. It probably just procs it automatically every so often
stuck crown
Panz is first log Iām second
lusty grotto
i would ask @ionic fern about that
wait
there's a wipe
and there's a kill
a 50% wipe
stuck crown
Iām the wipe
lusty grotto
i mean
lusty grotto
someone has a 430 chest too
stuck crown
Oh. I. Wow. Wasnāt. Wow. Wearing.... the third RF
lusty grotto
while the other one has all 445s
prisma crane
he also has about 200 more haste fwiw
lusty grotto
traits scale with ilvl
warm plinth
RIP
stuck crown
I have a 445 but it sims lower bc no RF
lusty grotto
higher ilvl means RF is more damage
lusty grotto
you're not missing a lot
at 50% you did half his RF damage
roughly
also remember, it depends on the speed of the fight too
if you kill ashvane faster, RF will obviously have lower damage
total damage
warm plinth
Yeah but you can look at how much per hit it did
prisma crane
but as a % of his damage it should be higher
lusty grotto
ah
lusty grotto
yeah
prisma crane
because lust is a larger part of the fight
lusty grotto
well i mean missing 1 RF and having lower ilvl on it solves that
lusty grotto
yeah
prisma crane
his hits for about 68% more
stuck crown
Ok stop ragging on my gear now guys
stuck crown
I can only take so much
prisma crane
you have more str and more mastery
warm plinth
lol
barren torrent
clap clap
warm plinth
Probably was just higher than you expected XD
warm plinth
More vers maybe?
prisma crane
no Hit has more of all stats but haste
Panzer has 200 more haste but 200 less vers, mastery and 100 less crit
im confused AF
but there's so many procs these days so idk
warm plinth
You also have to take the stat report on WCL with a grain of salt though
prisma crane
well theoretically the stat info is your base gear w/o procs
lusty grotto
š¤·
stuck crown
But anyways we now know a few things. One - daggers are no bueno. Two - I do not know the gear that I am wearing during raids. Three - š¤·āāļø
prisma crane
and 4 š»
lusty grotto
and 5 š¢ šµ š
stuck crown
Feet fetishās in the prot chat
stuck crown
Iām not judging
prisma crane
how long before blizzard makes RF not work in prot
warm plinth
Not likely any time soon
It's been the preferred trait for parsing all this tier and last
undone sun
lots of classes still have multi spec traits ĀÆ_(ć)_/ĀÆ
though druid had Power of the Moon be one of the best picks for guardian as a balance trait but "fixed" it so it only affects a small portion of the damage
prisma crane
i just know that blizzard and fun are like oil and water sometimes
so i get worried when something seems interesting
warm plinth
Interesting, for sure. Fun, not so much. Since it's a boring af build
Unless all your enjoyment comes from the damage meters I guess
prisma crane
well being creative with gear options can be fun too
but yea, more AA damage i suppose isn't exactly riveting...
warm plinth
Yeah, empty globals as a prot war feelsbadman
prisma crane
wtb T21 2p, pst
carmine light
Is the big red button trink any good
dreamy epoch
how the fuck do you handle 3rd boss in Motherlode hig tyrannical on a warrior tank?
I got null barrier and oppulence trinket on but it was chunking me for a lot even on the 12 test key
wispy sparrow
Don't use shield block and just keep ignore pain up 100%
tawny maple
Spam IP, press SW, ask for other party members CDs
spice ferry
spell reflect
tawny maple
Also you can use your other teammates as bait because Im pretty sure it targets the closest players
spice ferry
correct
tawny maple
So you dont take 6 in a row or w/e
But yeah just spam IP and rotate CDs
If you take every other one im pretty sure SR will be up every time
spice ferry
yeh that's correct too
rigid sinew
ultimately it depends on group comp
but for my group its typically
SR+ dispel
divine shield+dispel
SR+dispel
should be dead, if not then turtle+dispel
as for the boss just hitting u normally, yeah just IP is really all u can do, throw in demor last stand and SW here and there
exotic spoke
I think 4 rotations is extremely optimistic in high keys
lucid heron
does shield block do anything against the adds in radiance? I noticed their melees were nature damage.
terse dragon
@dreamy epoch take Never Surrender talent if it's giving you a lot of trouble
warm plinth
@lucid heron No, it doesn't.
terse dragon
And spell reflect the Chemical burn, don't waste any rage on revenge or shield block
warm plinth
Do not take Never Surrender talent smh
spice ferry
never take never surrender
warm plinth
It's not worth using regardless of the key level. The scaling on NS is horrendous because the max effect is at 1 HP.
exotic spoke
Never surrender isnāt worth
warm plinth
You lose more than you gain. It's a trap talent.
The 30% heal from LS every minute or so with Bolster is worth more than the IP you'd gain from NS
terse dragon
It has good value for the last 2 Tyr bosses on ML in high keys
warm plinth
No it doesn't
exotic spoke
It isnāt worth the time spent through two load screens - regardless of anything else
exotic spoke
Good for you? I do 19s as well
warm plinth
And I'm sure you would have done the 19 in time without NS too.
exotic spoke
Doesnāt mean youāre right
Itās like poker. You can make the right play and lose the hand. Or you can make the wrong play and win.
You shouldnāt be results driven all the time
terse dragon
Well I'm saying I just tanked it and NS had good value
exotic spoke
Do you have logs)
warm plinth
Succeeding while specced into the talent doesn't mean the talent was contributing to your success.
I'm sure you could time a 19 with Ravager instead of AM too, but you wouldn't say Ravager had good value would you?
terse dragon
I liked the IPs fat 100k + IP
willow scarab
NS feels pretty good in very high tyr ML
willow scarab
If your group is hesrthing out after 2nd boss then you might as well change to NS as well
Otherwise stay bolster
terse dragon
But NS definitely can save you in high Tyran ml
willow scarab
Fumeiyo-Frostmourne (2800 last season, stopped pushing mid season)
exotic spoke
https://raider.io/characters/us/bloodhoof/Riki
We donāt leave when we do ML
willow scarab
Since you asked
terse dragon
Fume what do you think?
exotic spoke
2475 last season and like 1880 right now. Havenāt been able to play much with my group these past two weeks
willow scarab
I just said itās only worth if your group is hesrthing out
exotic spoke
He just said - if they leave you leave if they donāt you donāt
terse dragon
I'll try bolster next time
willow scarab
If your rogues are swapping to sin then you might as well swap to NS
exotic spoke
My Group doesnāt - might as well just do it normal
exotic spoke
Which is my thought
terse dragon
I usually just do the whole key on ns
warm plinth
Yikes
terse dragon
Cause the trash isn't too hard to tank
willow scarab
Thatās a troll right
exotic spoke
I hard disagree with that option
terse dragon
That's just me though
warm plinth
Hard confirmation that M+ score isn't everything
willow scarab
Whatās your highest ML
terse dragon
19 this season
willow scarab
In 23/24 you need bolster
terse dragon
On fort I just take bolster
weary thorn
Gotdamn 34 ML
willow scarab
23 mobs are like fort versions of 21 tyr mobs
exotic spoke
Mine was 21 last season - missed timer we tucked a death run or two š¦
weary thorn
Fume changing avatar more often than nimchip is 
willow scarab
You should see how often I change race
weary thorn
Lol
exotic spoke
Probably as many times as I do
willow scarab
Iāve definitely been 3 races so far during EP
And I kinda want to change again but keep wasting gold
exotic spoke
@terse dragon just because he runs it one way or the other doesnāt mean itās the right way.
See my previous analogy to poker
warm plinth
Oh jesus, now we're asking Nerf š
willow scarab
Some of the stuff that nerf does will only apply to his comp so make sure you keep that in mind
exotic spoke
I honestly think Fumeiyos is the best balance
terse dragon
Yah just asked Nerf
exotic spoke
If someone else needs it then both hearth and thatās fine
terse dragon
He takes NS for the last two bosses
willow scarab
The group I was playing with ended the season at 3500 so if I didnāt stop then thatās my projected io
exotic spoke
But if itās just you - suck it up
exotic spoke
Again - that doesnāt mean itās right Msv
weary thorn
I enjoy switching races, but I hate how you have to move over your mod/WA settings
exotic spoke
Iām not saying heās wrong - but Iām saying heās not necessarily right
weary thorn
When I race changed I changed the name. And the settings are stored by character name
exotic spoke
See leech
willow scarab
Theyāre all set to load on protection warrior rather than the race
terse dragon
Yah I understand, but I think if you guys were doing it you would die with bolster
weary thorn
No I mean like mod positions, fume
I still have them, they are all just centered
So I had to reorganize them all
exotic spoke
I do 19s msv. Iād love to do it tonight but two people on vacation
willow scarab
Yeah nothing like that happens to me, unlucky for you
exotic spoke
The 21s I did last season I didnāt think it was worth.
weary thorn
Well shoot
terse dragon
Not enough rage to maintain IP and LS wouldn't be up enough is how it feels
But yeah. Bolster is so good for 90% of that key
willow scarab
I think the important thing with The last two ML bosses is to keep AM up, not greed any revenge damage, rotate spell reflect/demo/wall/ironbark/last stand in a smart way to smooth out the damage
terse dragon
I'll try it with bolster maybe on an 18
willow scarab
The talent is on the less important size and only matters in super super high keys
The difference isnāt big enough to take it unless everyone hearths
exotic spoke
Maybe my healers better.! Maybe my dps with how they soak . It just doesnāt feel worth
willow scarab
I have seen your healer keep you up through some insane damage
lavish oracle
There's almost no reason not to switch to NS for the last 2 bosses unless you're tight enough on time that you'll miss the 10s it takes
exotic spoke
Whatever the difference- it doesnāt feel like it adds value to my group
exotic spoke
Iām not saying theirnbad - Iām saying I donāt know what it is
Oh I run with rdruid
Could be it
exotic spoke
I wasnāt saying mine was better or worse - just thatbit doesnāt feel worth it to be the only one to hearth out and then run back in for my situation - which is all I can base my decisions on
willow scarab
It takes more like 45s not 10
terse dragon
He does bolster into ns switch because I think you need both if you get high in tyran
warm plinth
I mean, you can look at logs and see you're wrong.
willow scarab
Looks like nerf and I agree
terse dragon
I just asked him lol
exotic spoke
Do other people zone out?
terse dragon
I'm not sure
willow scarab
A lot do
exotic spoke
If other classes do I can totally see it
Also last season o had a ducking potato
willow scarab
You see it more often in streams with 2 rogues or other clssses that gain a lot by swapping to ST specs
exotic spoke
Which is also why it wasnāt worth
terse dragon
I think you have to make up for the talent swap, with bigger pull
Something more efficient in the route
lavish oracle
NS is just straight up a survivability increase for those 2 bosses, it's incredibly evident from logs, whether you need it or not
willow scarab
Thatās not it at all
You take it to survive better as a bonus for yourself when your rogues swap to sin and the time taken from hearthing is made up by their sin damage
The hearth and NS change isnāt even about you, itās just being opportunistic
terse dragon
Yeah rogues swap to sin, your right
Nerf says you die without ns lol
Which I kinda agree
undone sun
oh boy, NS š¤
spice ferry
nErF sAiD tO uSe It sO It mUsT bE bIs
warm plinth
So comparing two logs. One warrior has NS, one doesn't. 1 ilevel apart, same affixes, same dungeon/key level. NS guy averaged an 85,797 damage absorb from IP. Non-NS guy averaged a 78,456 damage absorb from IP. Fucking. GAME BREAKING.
spice ferry
next you'll be telling us to run siphoning
undone sun
ravager
spice ferry
leeeeeeeeeeech?
warm plinth
Both have 1 bloodsport btw, if you're concerned about that
prisma crane
just wear the double charge spell reflect pants 4Head
warm plinth
lol
undone sun
i wish
distant crystal
that's such a weird random comparison to make lol
willow scarab
Idk why you guys are so against it. Itās people who are significantly higher in io suggesting using it
undone sun
IO means absolutely nothing
distant crystal
lol
undone sun
how can you possibly think it matters
willow scarab
Where is your 5k io then
prisma crane
because for 99.9% of people out there, the swap isnt worth it
undone sun
fuck off
warm plinth
I mean...I'll just listen to everything Nerfclap does then š¤
willow scarab
People with low io says it means nothing
warm plinth
Fuck I missed my chance; he's not running Siphoning anymore. š¦
sick sentinel
how big is IP with NS and 3 BS
willow scarab
The same way people with bad logs say logs donāt matter
distant crystal
i mean yeah for 99.9% of keys run you could wear caster trinkets and be fine
warm plinth
No, that's not remotely the same thing lol
distant crystal
but for really high tyranncal lode keys, i could see NS being necessary
willow scarab
Yeah but you donāt need full effectiveness
warm plinth
It's not though. I just showed you that.
distant crystal
no you didn't lol
sick sentinel
even 75% is a shit ton
willow scarab
The value at 20/30% hp is still good
warm plinth
7k average increase in IPs is not game-changing. it's not the difference between you living and dying.
sick sentinel
by that i mean when youre at 25% health
undone sun
not better than Bolster though
terse dragon
@distant crystal it is necessary
distant crystal
7k average increase from two random logs you pulled out your ass
willow scarab
Itās pretty synonymously agreed across high io tanks that itās worth changing if your group is hearthing
distant crystal
you demonstrated that the warrior using NS in that log you picked probably didn't need it
dassit
willow scarab
And the people disagreeing are like 1600io
If you havenāt felt how hard a very high ML hits you then how do you know what you need to do to play through it
On paper sure you understand bolster is more value
warm plinth
I mean, they're incredibly close logs o_O Same dungeon, same trait, very similar vers (NS guy has about 100 less), only 1 ilevel apart
That's about as close a comparison as you're going to get unless you want to do the math for every second of the fight and figure out what difference NS makes for each specific IP cast
willow scarab
On tyr I would also swap from dps trinkets to double tank trinkets on the NS hearth
distant crystal
that is what's known in the business as an anecdote
terse dragon
You need to abuse the ND effect
distant crystal
if the tank isn't dropping low then yes NS wasn't worth using
taking a single data point that you picked and drawing a conclusion is insane lol
undone sun
you'd have to be sub ~40% consistently to be "good"
willow scarab
You are
warm plinth
19, the one he's using to prove that it's worth using
terse dragon
Let yourself get a bit lower for IP gain, lot of the times you are naturally low from being dicked by the boss
undone sun
not just spikes
terse dragon
I mean Nerf does 21+
willow scarab
Youāre struggling to live in high ML the whole time
warm plinth
So you're going to drop low intentionally on an already dangerous boss fight to get a marginal increase on IP??? The fuck
terse dragon
And he thinks you die without ns
prisma crane
i forgot that i have to be the best runner in the world to be usain bolt's trainer
terse dragon
I'm saying don't always top off your IP lol
warm plinth
More casts of IP I will abso-fucking-lutely guarantee you will = a safer fight than intentionally casting it less to get the benefit from NS
undone sun
More often than not Quality TC doesn't come from the top players
terse dragon
Let the boss chunk your ip and some health to deliver a 110+ ip
undone sun
95% of the class discord TCs aren't top players
willow scarab
Do we even have TCs for prot?
undone sun
pushing IO like it means jack shit is the most retarded "argument"
Marok is the only one with the role
willow scarab
We have a sim guy and a guy who writes half correct icy veins guides
Thatās it
The rest is experienced players talking about what has shown results
undone sun
Mwahi writes APL, Melekus writes the backend, Marok writes the IV guide
terse dragon
Ghash can you link your io ? I asked you earlier and only riki linked
undone sun
M Trinity
willow scarab
Marok used vop lucid in ashvane prog
terse dragon
Riki is good player š
warm plinth
I don't do high keys
willow scarab
Ghash is more of a social member in skyhold
prisma crane
i guess i dont know how to play prot warrior because currently i have a score of like 600, im just an idiot
terse dragon
š š
willow scarab
I think heās 420 Ilvl and doesnāt play as often
warm plinth
Yeah you're right, I automatically don't know what I'm talking about
willow scarab
Still understands warrior just not experienced in high keys
terse dragon
@willow scarab is my boy
willow scarab
Krotos very defensive for no reason
prisma crane
experienced in high keys, just doesnt understand math
willow scarab
Every high io tank is bad at math confirmed
warm plinth
I'm actually laughing at this guy spamming emojis like his score makes him better than me somehow.
undone sun
everyone with high io @prisma crane
exotic spoke
Iām terrible @terse dragon š
willow scarab
The funny bit is that the 19 isnāt high like thatās not worth a brag at all
spice ferry
imagine not realising score is just a representation of time spent
terse dragon
Yah you actually did the high key
willow scarab
If youāre bad youāll never get high even if you okay lots
undone sun
io score can be, and is often, cheesed
warm plinth
I disagree that it's just time spent. It's time spent to a point but when you're doing higher keys, it does require talent
undone sun
it represents very little
prisma crane
that may be true, but that doesn't mean that a low scare means you're bad, that doesn't work both ways
willow scarab
You have to actually put in the time to learn the keys and do the keys
warm plinth
I agree
willow scarab
But you canāt just throw yourself for 50 hours and hope for high io
terse dragon
Ghash doesn't know what he's talking about
willow scarab
Itās not just time
spice ferry
fine, its not literally JUST time spent. but if you have more than a few braincells and a group of 5 to push with, and the ability to play endlessly, you can go pretty dam high
warm plinth
But that doesn't mean my lack of score means I'm inferior somehow, or don't know what I'm talking about.
willow scarab
Just like a bad player canāt walk into a rank 1 log despite thinking they know everything about dps as prot
warm plinth
At what point did I claim I can do it?
prisma crane
and you can also take nerf and give him to a 2k IO tops group and he wont perform as well, what are you wanting to prove here?
undone sun
i don't recall ghash saying he can do 20s
warm plinth
Point that out for me?
terse dragon
I can rank 1 fury parse but I don't have to prove it
terse dragon
Trust me, I know what I'm talking about
warm plinth
Never
terse dragon
That's the point..
undone sun
throwing shit on others for no reason
prisma crane
meanwhile anyone who knows anything knows that R1 parsing is more about cheese and gear RNG than anything else
terse dragon
He shouldn't speak
warm plinth
Wowwwww
undone sun
go fuck yourself
willow scarab
I hear that a lot krotos
terse dragon
He doesn't know what he is saying
undone sun
you are the problem in class discords
warm plinth
lmao
terse dragon
Let the good players who have done it give the advice
warm plinth
Fucking inferiority complex or something?
spice ferry
hell the lead person for BDK (and i believe prot pally) doesn't even fucking play the game atm
warm plinth
Got a little .io score and you think you're better than people? Fucking prick
distant crystal
lol
prisma crane
distant crystal
much ado about Never Surrender
terse dragon
Go home ghash you're drunk
prisma crane
willow scarab
Last xpac and itās not even a clean slate of 99s
warm plinth
Hahaha, what an asshole.
prisma crane
i've had rank 1s
willow scarab
An entire tier to do it
terse dragon
Guys
exotic spoke
You can know theory and math and not do the content.
Attacking someone because they donāt do the content but understand the theory is pretty cancerous
terse dragon
Ghash won't take never surrender, but he'll never surrender to never surrender
prisma crane
first was mythic
terse dragon
š š
orchid token
is this entire argument started by the idea of talenting specifically for 3rd and 4th boss in ML
spice ferry
yes
willow scarab
Weāre into more entertaining things now
undone sun
yeah, one sided arguments how IO still doesn't matter
prisma crane
and you JUST yourself claimed that you were 3500 IO last season, not because you had it, but because your group did it without you after you got bored of keys
undone sun
š
warm plinth
Yes and no. This joker literally used it for an entire 19
prisma crane
pick your battle
warm plinth
But yes, the part that I'm getting grief about is specifically using it for 3rd/4th boss
But my opinion doesn't matter because r.io score
prisma crane
where's Sal when you need him
orchid token
ok well heres the solution to talenting specifically for 3rd and 4th boss - if you have a warlock you zone out and do it, if you don't then you pick which one to run for the whole run based on which part of the dungeon will give you more trouble
willow scarab
Warlock or if your rogues are hearthing to go sin
undone sun
imagine a mod doing anything in #protection š š¤£ @prisma crane
willow scarab
Sal would just ban me on the spot thatās not fair
orchid token
motherlode is kidn of a special case since you zone back in at azerokk and the entrance is very easily accessible from a hearth point
prisma crane
it's just big epeen syndrome
im not the one pushing for someone to be silenced like Msv is
then emoting like a school girl afterwards
orchid token
I would argue that the third and fourth bosses of motherlode are the only difficult part of the entire dungeon on most tyrannical weeks from a tank POV so if I was doing a high one as a prot warrior I'd probably run NS for the whole dungeon too
warm plinth
I know how @lusty grotto feels now, except I'm upset that he didn't tell me what score I needed before I matter.
orchid token
motherlode tank daamge isn't of the punchy variety
willow scarab
You just gotta remember this is a prot warrior discord not just a top prot warrior discord
So not everything you read is useful
orchid token
the biggest tank damage threats in motherlode are all magical
except for uninterrupted thugs and you can kite them.
prisma crane
the irony being that im not even saying that NS isn't ever viable in a small niche, i'm just calling bullshit on these half assed attempts at credibility policing
orchid token
so running never surrender for a whole run is not even losing you much value if you're going to need it for the third and fourth boss anyway
distant crystal
eh
orchid token
which you will since those bosses shred tanks especially warriors
distant crystal
you leave a lot of trash dps/defensive utility on the table
willow scarab
It will affect the size of your early pulls and if youāre doing a shroud into lust pull on a 23+ you need bolster to pop last stand and pull the groups
undone sun
it is lost value
sick sentinel
honestly you should be running indomitable so you look better
undone sun
that's not the entire reason you run Bolster
warm plinth
I mean...but not running Bolster means formerly blocked attacks are now not blocked
Because you don't have LS to fill gaps
undone sun
NS is worse than not using LS
orchid token
you can solve that by kiting, you can't solve a lack of magic mitigation with that way
exotic spoke
Swear to god.
This is ducking cancerous. Iām not catching up on this or participating further.
Iāll catch you guys later
distant crystal
š
orchid token
obviously the ideal is run bolster then switch to NS but if you won't have the time to do that then NS for the run is the next best option
exotic spoke
FUCKINGN KITING?! Iām not a ducking DH. Seriously - that seals it. Peace and catch you later
willow scarab
I think this could all be fixed by running a double absorb trinket, full vers/leech build
orchid token
the top few dangerous mobs on motherlode trash are peacekeeper charged claws and earthshaper earth shocks and rock bolts
never surrender helps a bit with those and bolster does not
which makes up for the loss of block uptime on the other mobs
warm plinth
Yes, because you're blocking all of the other dangerous shit.
orchid token
which don't hit hard to begin with
willow scarab
Reflect peace Kepler and cc the bolts
orchid token
there is no other dangerous shit
warm plinth
It is when it's not blocked lol
orchid token
on a tyrannical motherlode none of the trash hits you hard even unblocked
willow scarab
If the key is high enough to consider NS itās high enough that no earth bolts go off
distant crystal
presumably you're pulling kinda big because it's high tyrannical
that's a lot of blocked attacks that become unblocked attacks
willow scarab
If itās high youāre pulling big to make time anyway
distant crystal
i feel like it'd generally be better to run bolster then swap NS for rixxa
orchid token
i'm not disputing bolster is lost value against NS on motherlode trash
distant crystal
vs running NS whole run
orchid token
of course it would
but if you don't have the time to do so
and you may not
then you run NS the whole run
because the third and fourth bosses are more dangerous than the rest
distant crystal
even better if you can have your rogues/other dps hearth out and swap to a ST build same time
willow scarab
I actually kinda agree
orchid token
you can survive the loss of bolster earlier in the run, you can't survive getting hammered by third and fourth bosses with no counterplay
if you're going to need NS for the bosses and you don't have time to swap then you run it for the dungeon
end of.
swapping is quick in motherlode but it's not non-zero
distant crystal
but if you have 1-2 rogues
orchid token
they will be asssassination anyway
distant crystal
you make up that time by having them outlaw the trash early
orchid token
from the start
distant crystal
and sin the bosses late
Necrys comin in with the hottest take of 2019
the TCs are wrong AND the high key runners are wrong
lol
orchid token
assassination was already not far off being competitive before outlaw got hammered
distant crystal
if you ask the rogue discord sin was already better
orchid token
up until this week you'd be right, if you had rogues they're swapping out
distant crystal
outlaw was just brought because they could use vanish for utility
orchid token
I don't think they bother now
distant crystal
kek
orchid token
even if outlaw still holds a small lead for the resto f the dungeon i think it's small enough that you'd lose time overall vs just being assassination from the start
in a scenario where you'd be the only one swapping talents you absolutely should just run your 3rd/4th boss talents for the whole run
third and fourth bosses define motherlode tyranical, the rest of the dungeon is an afterthought
being weaker there is not a big deal especially since a lot of the dangerous damage is still helped by bigger IPs so it's not a total loss
orchid token
of course it's not as good as having bolster
but what's your choice
be a bit weaker on the trash
or die to bosses
orchid token
are you genuinely memeing now or
the entire caveat is that if you're the only one swapping it's not worth swapping
distant crystal
might as well go devestator and RF traits while you're there
i know we're talking about your hypothetical where your dps can't switch to a better ST build
and you're only going to time it by 30 seconds
oblique garnet
š¤
distant crystal
like even if your rogues are already sin
it's not like they're running MA and 3x DD
if they are their trash dps will be miles behind outlaw or sin EB
orchid token
swapping DPS specs is a maths problem, if you gain more DPS by switching than you lose by taking the time to do so
orchid token
and its going to be a different calculation for every group comp since some will gain/lose more than others
warriors are the only tank who really has to make that choice since the other tanks don't suffer in the same way from having that talent go back and forth
sick sentinel
While it might be fun to talk theoretically about what talents and specs would and would not work for x or y reason/purpose, at this point and far into the expac it won't matter if there aren't major changes that arent just "That spec damage number go down"
prisma crane
disagree, as you push further into content, things that were once trivial become bottlenecks
good example being not doing more damage in some places, but just having enough effective HP to survive regular mechanics
sick sentinel
Not really, nothing has changed from the start of the expac up to now in terms of value between NS and Bolster
orchid token
talent value is content-specific
prisma crane
mathematically, no, but they're also referring to something that takes all of the block benefits of LS out of the picture
so the math changes
orchid token
like, bolster does essentially nothing for you on the third and fourth bosses of motherlode
and those are the hardest part of the dungeon on a tyrannical key
lapis charm
on heroic za'qul should i be focusing more rage into shield block or ignore pain?
orchid token
so the choice becomes relevant
prisma crane
regardless, i'm more concerned with people being twats than the discussion itself
orchid token
@lapis charm shield block asusming you're main tanking
lapis charm
ty
prisma crane
dont forget that LS is still a heal btw
and being able to cast it more often is effective healing
prisma crane
yea
orchid token
the main point is just that when it comes to any form of content, you should always talent/gear for what's most dangerous and then just make do for the rest
that's as true in motherlode as it is anywhere else
orchid token
??
orchid token
if you're getting more than 1 stack of bleed oyu're playing it wrong
wispy plume
Lol. You do realize that even in motherlode your largest damage taken will be autos
distant crystal
we need that predator handshake meme pic
wispy plume
Irrelevant of the bosses. Not having holster will significantly hinder your pull size and hurt your healer in terms of mana and gcds on others
orchid token
and all of that is meaningless if you walk into the third boss and get destroyed
you can play around lacking bolster on trash by adjusting your approach, there's no playing around 150k magic autos
distant crystal
can't get destroyed by third boss if you deplete before you get there
orchid token
obviously
lusty grotto
ns isnt really good until you get low hp, you would think people would read that part
wispy plume
I have tanked it on 17 and 18 with bolster
orchid token
"if the key level isn't dangerous you don't need to worry about which talent keeps you alive"
what a revolutionary concept
you're a true visionary
red wedge
You're spreading misinformation saying you should take NS for Motherload's 3rd boss with no other context.
wispy plume
17-19 is dangerous lol. Thatās my point. There is a jump to 20
orchid token
the other context is there, i can't help it if someone reads the last 2-3 messages and nothing else
im not going to repeat the context every 2 lines
hasty nova
yo fumeyio whats ur neck level at now adays
last i saw, you were like 3 levels ahead of me
red wedge
6:36 PM] Volkhor: Unless you are tanking the boss on 20+
[6:36 PM] Volkhor: You donāt need to not have booster
[6:36 PM] Necrys: obviously
Is the first time you said anything of high keys.
But whatever
hasty nova
oh i'm in the middle of a shiot storm, nvm good luck.
orchid token
NecrysToday at 8:10 AM
I would argue that the third and fourth bosses of motherlode are the only difficult part of the entire dungeon on most tyrannical weeks from a tank POV so if I was doing a high one as a prot warrior I'd probably run NS for the whole dungeon too
sure it was half an hour ago
but if you're going to jump into a conversation that's 30 mins old
don't get snarky when you dont bother reading it all
red wedge
my feelings are so hurt
wispy plume
I read them
sick sentinel
4head
wispy plume
And there are 3 warriors 2 on 20 and 1 on 19
orchid token
you mean
wispy plume
That tanked it with bolster
orchid token
oh fair, i see them now
wispy plume
Timed 2 20s and 1 19
orchid token
didn't scroll far enough
wispy plume
So
orchid token
are they logged runs
wispy plume
3 20s*
orchid token
or are you just reading from raiderio
because talent tracking on a per-run basis on .io is not reliable
orchid token
it only tracks whatever they had when they logged off after the run, and i would assume a warrior would switch immediately back to bolster as soon as you got back to boralus
distant crystal
if they changed there's no way to reflect that in the talent row
orchid token
or zuldazar /e
w/e
on a wlogs run it'd track accurately
but very few people log runs
unfortunately too, since logs are even more valuable for M+ contexts than they are for raid
and everyone logs raid
orchid token
i don't know how it would display that but i assume you'd be able to tell based on LS usage
could probably figure it out