protection

[sand egret]

Naw

Late has a good point

❤

[chilly brook]

M+ dungeons can be fun and I think they’re a great addition but loot wise and how they interact with the loot economy is terrible imo

[honest frigate]

Nobody’s saying that you need to grind for a forge. If you want to go for it. But saying that mythic raiders are the only ones that deserve high ilvl gear is wrong

[chilly brook]

Is it?

[honest frigate]

There’s a problem with the Titan forging system itself, not necessarily m+ loot itself

Yes it is

[chilly brook]

And why

[honest frigate]

Because it’s not nearly as difficult as the rewards it produces

[chilly brook]

Because they sure as hell seem to like giving away high end loot to everyone and look at how that’s worked for the game

[oblique garnet]

So you think its good change that +10 gives 420 piece?

[chilly brook]

Oh wait that’s right we have a bunch of other systems to determine whether or not people should even be deserving of coming to our run because gear means nothing now

[exotic spoke]

Which is what again? 5 ilvls over normal?

[oblique garnet]

So if you are mythic raider and have 420 from the previous tier you have no incentive at all to do m+ other than the weekly +10 for the 440 ilvl from chest

[honest frigate]

^^

[sand egret]

and this is just seen on the PTR/

?

(i'm catching up here)

[chilly brook]

Or your io if you actually care about it

[exotic spoke]

Yes blade

[honest frigate]

Yeah and it’s not likely to come to fruition

[sand egret]

I would really cum grano salis that....

[oblique garnet]

If they make the change they will increase the loot at 15 probably

[honest frigate]

There was something similar last PTR for 8.1 that was resolved come live

[exotic spoke]

Griff, the issue is then that people who do mythic raid have a huge advantage in m+ then.

[sand egret]

like, that sounds like funky PTR data that is ultimately not relevant for testing

[honest frigate]

As they should. People who do the whole lot of PVE content have a higher chance of getting the gear they want because they’re engaging in more content

[exotic spoke]

It’s the same issue that was prevalent back when pvp started giving high rewards too.

[chilly brook]

And Mythic raiding’s difficulty is fairly subjective, would I say it’s as hard as I thought it would be on an individual level? No but did I end up getting stuck because others found it difficult to do their job? Yes

[honest frigate]

That same logic applies to m+

[sand egret]

I get it's your hill to die on that "good playerrs are the gatekeepers to the best gear" but that's just not how the game is/can be now

[exotic spoke]

The whole point of m+, at least how it was originally conveyed, was to be end game content for small groups

[sand egret]

serendipitous loot is a way to mend that gap

[chilly brook]

Serendipitous loot is part of what spawned a helluva lot of problems in WoW today

[sand egret]

uh

you mean the things YOU dont like

let's not paint this as its a universal thing

[exotic spoke]

I’d argue that some of the keys I’ve done are harder than mythic raids

[sand egret]

I actually love the idea of TF in concepty

[chilly brook]

Clearly when it’s an exponential infinite scaling system it will be harder

[sand egret]

because it adds something blatantly missing from the WoW ecosystem

[exotic spoke]

TF was also designed to give guilds a leg up if they hit a wall

[chilly brook]

But not because of any merit of its own, just simply because you’re literally ratcheting up the numbers each and every time

TF is a cancer

[sand egret]

it is for purists

who can't get out of last decade, yeah

but that's now WoW anymore

[chilly brook]

Bring back upgrades that you earned

[sand egret]

it's not sustainable

[chilly brook]

Through currency

By doing content

How is it not sustainable

Wtf

[sand egret]

because not everyone who plays WoW thinks like you

[chilly brook]

That’s not an answer

[sand egret]

it's 100% the answer

you have a very narrow, draconian view on a merit based system

that doesn't work in 2019 when there is INSANE competition

guess what happens when you don't get loot for weeks in a row cuz you get one shot a week IF you clear mythic....

you play Fortnite

[chilly brook]

What’s new

[sand egret]

serendipitous loot breaks up your expectiations

[chilly brook]

That’s what people do anyways

[sand egret]

it's designed to be chaos

for this reason

[chilly brook]

When their friends aren’t on or they’re locked out

[exotic spoke]

That’s rather an elitist view imo.

Blizzard decided that they wanted more people to see their content so they added in TF to help guilds get past their walls

However, their content progression doesn’t effect you. So I don’t see why it’s an issue personally

[oblique garnet]

yeah but what happens when the most hardcore players who actually want to gear up during heroic/mythic week cant do that anymore?

They end up doing 10 split runs of hc instead of maybe farming m+ for gear

[chilly brook]

And catering to the whole “well we want more people to see this content” has led to more and more people leaving the game

[sand egret]

M+ > Split runs

considering that WoW has survived this long

in the environment that it's in

is like....totally against what you're saying

[chilly brook]

It’s stifled a lot of players out of the high end, made less for the lower and mid tier players to work towards

[sand egret]

again

[exotic spoke]

Prove that’s the cause please griff. Correlation is not causation

[sand egret]

this is your elitist view of merit

[fast thicket]

WoW is a very, very old game now. It is quite frankly amazing that it is still relevant at all.

[exotic spoke]

^^

[chilly brook]

And prove to me that the new systems are better than the old ones then

[exotic spoke]

I don’t need to. I never said they where. You made the claim that’s why people left

[chilly brook]

And if systems of merits makes me an elitist then hell yes I am one

[exotic spoke]

However, mythic+ needs to have a system to reward difficult content. Whether that maxes out at 5, 10, 15, or 20 I don’t care. Saying my 15 is equivalent to normal raids is bullshit

[sand egret]

also, merit based systems =/= what you're insinuating

[exotic spoke]

I gear so I can push content. Setting loot rewards lower makes it drastically harder to push content - that gives me the loot.

Sure I’ll have experience others don’t, but they have a lot better gear than someone who just m+ it the changes to in

[sand egret]

so let's not conflate that as well

it's your definition of what constitutes "merit"

[exotic spoke]

Residum costs are also going up relative to rewards

From m+

[sand egret]

and from a time/cost perspective, raids are always going to be waaay more efficient at getting the top-end gear.

nowadays, gear is a means to an end. It USED to be the end

which worked, back then

[chilly brook]

If m+ had a bunch of other rewards other than loot I would agree with you

But it doesn’t

[sand egret]

it's a gearing mechanism, so what would it have?

[spice ferry]

You could easily stick tmog/mount/pets behind 10/15/20 achieves each season

[exotic spoke]

The other reward is the completion / competition

[chilly brook]

What would it have in my ideal?

[sand egret]

as far as I see it, M+ is a self-sustaining ecosystem

[chilly brook]

Exactly @spice ferry

[sand egret]

sure, and that is probably not off the table

tbh

esp with the increasing rise in M+ popularity

[chilly brook]

Give us other stuff to work towards

[spice ferry]

M+ should be another pvp type reward system in the game

[chilly brook]

Actual rewards

[fast thicket]

Ion has spoken of adding tmog, titles, and mounts to m+ achievements before but only said that it was something that they were discussing internally.

[spice ferry]

If it has that, I’d be done with raiding

Dealing with 19 others is shit.

[sand egret]

not gonna lie

i wouldn't be shocked if next expac downplays raids

in favor of more epic dungeons

a la mechagon

[chilly brook]

There literally is no reason to do m+ past 10 unless you’re fishing for TFs or want to boost IO

Add value to it

Not necessarily through power gains

[fair sky]

To me there is no incentive to push a higher key past 10

[chilly brook]

But through cool shit

[sand egret]

assuming that you don't enjoy doing 10+s.....?

[exotic spoke]

That’s a different arguement then capping Ilvl rewards at normal raid levels and saying that’s all they should get

[sand egret]

the reason is enjoyment.

[oblique garnet]

Doing higher keys is actually fun because its challenging content

[sand egret]

that's why I do it

[fast thicket]

^

[sand egret]

and I don't even push 20+

I like hard stuff, even if it's the same fucking Dazari Juggernaut

[exotic spoke]

^^ I’ve had more fun wiping and learning on 20s than doing face roll m+

[sand egret]

and it's really, really not hard to make the leap that we're not like the only fucking people who think this way

[fast thicket]

Highest I've done so far is a 17 but it is a lot of fun when you have a dedicated group of friends doing it. We've been practicing a lot lately.

[oblique garnet]

and if the m+ on 10s doesnt drop actually hc level gear people wont be able to do higher keys at all

because the scaling from lets say 22 right now on live is 366% damage increase to the key

[fair sky]

put m 10 -14 HC and 15+ mythic gear

[sand egret]

and like....10+ does increase your chances of getting TF via more rolls at the slot machine....

[oblique garnet]

and 22 on next season will be 573% damage increase

[exotic spoke]

M+ keeps a good portion of my raiders logging on for more than just raids. They don’t push like I do, but they enjoy them

[oblique garnet]

Theres no way people will be able to do high keys without raiding mythic

[exotic spoke]

It’s fine at heroic loot with an almost mythic piece for maxing out at end of week

[spice ferry]

What if doing a 15 fave your cache mythic but still dropped hc gear

[exotic spoke]

That’s fine

Imo at least.

Whatever the cap is, it should give heroic loot imo. With a weekly cache of almost mythic

[chilly brook]

@sand egret you said wow has to compete with other games like fortnite and you’re not wrong but you know why fortnite is so popular?

[sand egret]

oh boy

[chilly brook]

It’s not because the gameplay is super challenging or anything super crazy

[sand egret]

gimme dat strawman

[chilly brook]

It’s not a straw man

But ok

[oblique garnet]

fortnite was popular because its free

[chilly brook]

I’m literally agreeing with you on this point

Sure it’s free

[oblique garnet]

same way league of legends was popular because its free

[sand egret]

kinda, but that's a different case

😃

[chilly brook]

But they also throw a shit ton of cool shit at you to constantly be working towards

[oblique garnet]

you have to pay for those

[winter aspen]

so are you guys getting ready for prot pally meta next patch ?

[chilly brook]

What does BFA have that you can work towards that’s cool?

Practically nothing

[oblique garnet]

prot pally wont be meta next season takes too much damage still

[exotic spoke]

How’s our damage in look? Still amazing?

[winter aspen]

no reaping so no

[exotic spoke]

That would make our damage intake look better morth

[oblique garnet]

Our damage is still stronger

guardian can maybe match us in aoe

[exotic spoke]

Damage intake late - not output. Sorry I wasn’t clear

[oblique garnet]

oh our damage intake is less

[sand egret]

Fortnite is for the lil' ones who need to be stimulated constantly. We just established that "work towards" can be something that isn't like a new skin or something you can show off to your friends. The act of doing it is an inherent reward to some. The bonus is that is also has the chance to provide greater returns (assuming you're still in the gearing process)

[oblique garnet]

essences will reduce it by quite a bit same with new gear

[chilly brook]

There’s a lot to be said about putting upgrade paths in front of people and letting them go wild, human psychology feeds off of doing work and putting in effort and getting something that you see as worthwhile out of it

[dense flame]

Dungeon buffs

[chilly brook]

And what happens when the gearing process is over

[sand egret]

here's the thing

you keep going back to a central, personal point

[chilly brook]

You’re either doing it to do it or for bragging rights

[sand egret]

it's.not.about.the.gear.for.some.

[chilly brook]

You’re actually missing the point because I’m not even talking about gear now

[sand egret]

I enjoy doing dungeons

[winter aspen]

wow was always about the gear

[dense flame]

No more TD massive cannon fire

[sand egret]

for NO rewards

other than doing them

[lusty grotto]

those AD/FH/TD changes though

[sand egret]

i like harder ones

[dense flame]

Guess we actually kill trash 😏

[chilly brook]

Yes I’m glad you enjoy doing something for not reward

[sand egret]

See, you missed the point again.

[oblique garnet]

You still have 15 shots throughout the tol dagor cannon

[chilly brook]

However, there’s a large portion of people out there that like rewards for doing something whether it’s gear related or not

[sand egret]

I find my own reward in it

[oblique garnet]

which should be enough if you dont miss any shots

[sand egret]

that isn't presented by the game

[opaque shuttle]

is leech > haste ?

[oblique garnet]

especially with reaping gone

[exotic spoke]

So, you want m+ to give less of a reward?

[opaque shuttle]

with the same ilvl on the piece

[oblique garnet]

@opaque shuttle Leech is worthless you dont drop anything for it

[chilly brook]

Then it’s not truly a reward through the game

[dense flame]

Yeah you have to manage your pull size though

[chilly brook]

It’s just a pride tick

[opaque shuttle]

@oblique garnet ok ty

[sand egret]

not everyone plays a game for the checkbox

some people just like to play games.

a shocking amount, you'd find

[chilly brook]

Which is what I’ve been saying this whole damn time when I said “You’re either doing it to do it or for bragging rights”

[dense flame]

The main area you would use the cannon in has only 10 shots.

[sand egret]

how can you say that, while also saying that "There is no reason to do above a +10"

you just gave a reason

[chilly brook]

That statement of “there is no reason to do above a 10” had that part included

[sand egret]

"There literally is no reason to do m+ past 10 unless you’re fishing for TFs or want to boost IO"

ya sure?

[chilly brook]

Boosting io is an extension of doing harder content because you enjoy it

[sand egret]

no

boosting io is your "reward" system

but in a 3rd party

[chilly brook]

It’s literally an extension of it, there’s no reason to boost io if you don’t enjoy the content

[sand egret]

....for

bragging rights.

jesus dude

that's what "boosting" implies

[exotic spoke]

But you can enjoy the content for no reason and do challenging content without caring about it

[sand egret]

if r.io didn't exist, i'd still push my keys up as high as I could

[chilly brook]

Yes and doing harder content for the sake of just doing harder content is appealing to your ego even if it’s just “bragging rights” to yourself

[sand egret]

heck, I don't even update that shit

[oblique garnet]

@dense flame What you will have to do is just pull everything together before the trash on 2nd cannon and wait a bit with shooting till they are together and just aoe blast them down with it

[sand egret]

🤦

[oblique garnet]

5 shots is enough to kill all of them

[dense flame]

Fsho.

[oblique garnet]

What you can no longer do is probably pull everything to cannons

also the enchanted emissary will kill you same way spell reflect does so if theres one there it needs to be separated

[chilly brook]

Regardless of what this tangent is it’s not even addressing my point, which is if you truly want to keep more people doing the content then there needs to be more incentive added just not in the form of power gains

[sand egret]

you'd think out of all the ways to "adjust" ML....Echo Blade gets the snip?

🤔

[chilly brook]

cough mage tower cough

[dense flame]

Thanks for the insight.

[sand egret]

yes, and if that incentive is inherent in the content itself, that can be a reward. Is there a growing population that needs more and more vaildation? Sure, but that's different than implying that the content isn't itself incentivising

[chilly brook]

You’re continuing to talk at me instead of talking to me, addressing a point I’m not even making

[sand egret]

🤔

[exotic spoke]

I wonder if I can reflect the emissary damage back at them....

[sand egret]

"here needs to be more incentive added just not in the form of power gains"

[chilly brook]

I’m not saying that completing the content itself can’t be a reward

[sand egret]

talking to that

[chilly brook]

Clearly it is to some

[exotic spoke]

Also, we could say the same to you Matt.

You want content to have rewards, and I agree. I’d love to see that. How does reducing the only reward it currently give help with that goal?

[supple path]

Didn't read backlog but I think we can all agree that completing certain higher levels of M+ should give you cosmetic mounts/pets/etc.

[exotic spoke]

I don’t think a single person would disagree with that

[sand egret]

Question is: does it need to?

[oblique garnet]

also @sand egret I have yet to test the mc on the enchanted emissary it can still potentially work

[sand egret]

ooo

[sick sentinel]

aaaaaaaaaa

what are they doing

to atal

[sand egret]

they want you to go left

[exotic spoke]

I’d put forth that as it stands - no it doesn’t. However; if loot is reduced, it would lose appeal and perhaps

[sand egret]

and suffer?

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[sick sentinel]

did we talk about the priestess yet?

[sand egret]

those %'s look large

[exotic spoke]

Wait, do you MC the emissary and then use it to tank shit? Reflecting damage back at them?

[sand egret]

that's what I'm theorizing

[exotic spoke]

Holy shit that would be amazing.

[sand egret]

at least negating the aura

[exotic spoke]

CC it before a boss ...

[sand egret]

if not reflecting it back

[oblique garnet]

@sick sentinel It would basically do 50k per tick on like +10 or smth its nothing that major tbh you will probably pop a personal or smthing with it

[exotic spoke]

Take it with you, and boom blow both up

[sand egret]

so you can walk it to a place....to knock it back safely

[sick sentinel]

I mean

they look big

idk how big they actually are

[oblique garnet]

the emissary is only out for 30 seconds

[sand egret]

could use it to double pull another pack 😃

[oblique garnet]

@sick sentinel its 50k per tick to everyone soaking the pool the other 2 changes are just all dispellable on todays like +20

[sick sentinel]

oh

[oblique garnet]

Dont get me wrong its alot of damage

but nothing too major

all the other changes to the boss are just healer affix basically dispels and purges etc

[sand egret]

i'm just excited to maybe go LEFT for once

those stupid Constructs were just the worst

[exotic spoke]

Which instance? AD?

[sand egret]

yeah

[chilly brook]

My argument isn’t to just reduce gear rewards, however I will admit my argument is for what I think m+ should be instead of what it is.

In my ideal world m+ wouldn’t drop gear, it would give you an alternative upgrade path to the current gear available in Mythic raiding. The more you do the more currency you get. You can then spend the currency at a vendor and boom we’re back at justice points (which were perfectly fine tbh and addressed the same issues TF does but in a better manner imo). Give a pvp like upgrade path that has cosmetics loot etc. but let us see the whole upgrade path, make a new one each season of m+, bring back class specific armor sets etc. the higher the key the more progress towards that next tier. Also at the end of the run have extra cool stuff that’s in a loot pool that has a chance to drop to keep incentivizing people to run the dungeons if they’ve hit the top tier for the season and don’t find the content fun to do without the added carrot on a stick.

[sand egret]

and by left I mean not just taking the first pack or 2 and fucking off right

[chilly brook]

Sound more reasonable now?

[sick sentinel]

also

https://www.twitch.tv/thdlock/clip/BetterPuzzledShieldHumbleLife

this

is this confirmed?

[sand egret]

I mean, it forcing you to raid is the opposite of why they made M+, but I see what you want the system to be. So I get that side of it, it's just not what it is.

[exotic spoke]

It does griff. But when you come out agreeing with the change of dropping normal loot it sets off the wrong issue.

I don’t agree with all of it, but I see the merits

[somber sky]

should i still as prot warrior? and at 406 ilvl what would be ideal dps?

[sand egret]

if you only care about damage, then yeah

[somber sky]

but i care about threat genaration

[sand egret]

that's a product of damage

(sans a few abilities)

[sick sentinel]

you are not going to lose threat

if you play correctly

[somber sky]

like i'm at a point where i;'m debating between 1 OP and 1 gutripper or 2 OP and 0 gutripper

[sick sentinel]

2 OP

no question about it

[oblique garnet]

@sick sentinel i think that pack is not patrolling due to the emissary

[sand egret]

if you picked 0 OP and 0 Gutripper, it wouldn't ultimately change if you have/don't have threat, tbh

[somber sky]

😮 okidoki

[sick sentinel]

that's what I said as well

when it was posted to my guild discord

[sand egret]

correct play is going to be the biggest contributor. But OP is awesome, so take that shit

[sick sentinel]

but still

that's a pull

also late

weep bought eu wow

[oblique garnet]

Oh she did?

[sick sentinel]

and boosted a druid

Pog

[outer dew]

for the dudu

guardian bless

[sand egret]

🐻

[oblique garnet]

Idk i slept and had like 15 notifications and 5 missed calls like everyone was actually trying to contact me 🤷

[chilly brook]

I also just have very, different views on how loot should scale as well so that partially skews why I came out agreeing with the loot “change” on ptr

Like pretty sure most wouldn’t agree with me on saying there shouldn’t be 4 different raid difficulties

With 15 ilvl differences on each

[exotic spoke]

There’s no reason not to have them though?

[sand egret]

^

[outer dew]

have only mythic

:^)

[sand egret]

might as well

[exotic spoke]

I get the arguement for and against TF.

^^ literally the worst idea

[chilly brook]

I mean I could give you a reason but we’ve already been down that road

[sick sentinel]

just remove normal

[exotic spoke]

But I don’t get the argument against different difficulties

[sick sentinel]

and just bump down everything

by one level

[chilly brook]

I mean I would just argue to go back to the normal and heroic, with hardmode

[oblique garnet]

3 difficulties is fine lfr shouldnt exist though

[chilly brook]

Yeet Raid Finder out the window

[sand egret]

RF has a very intentional purpose

[sick sentinel]

LFR=guildless
normal=????
HC=social guilds
mythic=well you know

just merge LFR and normal

and have 3 difficuties

[oblique garnet]

There are alot of casual players who are not good enough to step into mythic raiding but are competent enough to clear hc

[sick sentinel]

that's my opinion

[exotic spoke]

@chilly brook what would you think about keeping the same difficulties but going back to wotlk where you had a single lock out?

[sand egret]

you build a huge portion of the story content in the raid, you need a mechanism to get people in there. Yes, there are people who won't "pug" normal

[steel mauve]

get rid of difficulties and add back in hard modes during the fights like ulduar

[exotic spoke]

I’d say normal is more social guilds and heroic is for the more competitive social personally

[outer dew]

#MakeWoWHardcore

:^)

[sand egret]

only get one life

gotta remake your char

[outer dew]

in all honesty

i'd be down

LMAO

[sand egret]

remove res

all rez spells

[oblique garnet]

Yeah no

[sand egret]

or it costs a stupid rare currency

[oblique garnet]

I heard they were making an mmo that works like that

[chilly brook]

@exotic spoke other than artificially elongating content I don’t see the point in a single lockout

[sand egret]

haha like how Russia reacted to Rust?

[oblique garnet]

Your character has only one life and will progress through life etc

[chilly brook]

Like tbh the difference in normal and heroic is really just negligible imo

Lfr is pretty snooze

[exotic spoke]

I mean, it’s basically what you’re suggesting with removing certain difficulties

[sand egret]

LFR is the story as a QTE

[oblique garnet]

Lfr uunat is hardest boss in the game

Change my mind

[sick sentinel]

I haven't done lfr in years

[spice ferry]

lfr ghuun still gives me nightmares

[sand egret]

attendance boss is probably why you're in LFR

[sick sentinel]

I want the shield

from lfr ghuun

[sand egret]

soo i'd say it's still the hardest

[sick sentinel]

the mog

[outer dew]

iunno

some people

[spice ferry]

i did lfr once during uldir because i was 1 sanguicell away from my 385. god it was painful

[outer dew]

are just shit

lol

[chilly brook]

Like I get that LFR has a purpose but that purpose isn’t fulfilled because it’s not an effective learning point and it’s not an effective gearing point either. So that leaves the story content and I don’t think it does a good job at that either because it’s often fragmented and a mad rush because most people want in and out

[sand egret]

last time I did a LFR was in antorus

and that was to see wtf happened in antorus

[outer dew]

the dps for most pug 10's

[sand egret]

while eating lunch

[outer dew]

is sub 20k

that i'm in

makes me want to bang my head in a corner

[exotic spoke]

Personally, lfrs purpose is to see the story for people unable to complete it otherwise imo - not an introduction to raiding

[sand egret]

^

ding ding

[outer dew]

tbh, i'm probably just gonna go dps/heal if i resub

[exotic spoke]

But I get griffs point of it feeing rushes

[outer dew]

but that's the problem, how do people get introduced to raiding properly

[sand egret]

I get it's negative impact

[outer dew]

nothing eases you into learning rotation properly

[spice ferry]

honestly they should just like make a specific "story mode" that allows you to go in solo or with a flex group and has npcs help you. lfr hurts my brain

[sand egret]

but it's very much a thing to get people to see the content

[chilly brook]

@exotic spoke I wouldn’t say that’s what I’m arguing for, since I’d still like to see you be able to do for example both difficulties in one week. But having multiple difficulties doesn’t make sense when two of them can very much be rolled into one

[sand egret]

konrad, that's actually what I'd like the most

[chilly brook]

That would be ideal

[spice ferry]

stick all the cinematics and extra dialog shit in there

[sand egret]

you just get some NPCs to "raid" with you

[spice ferry]

remove it frmo mythic

sitting through the champs -> grong thing every time.... REEEEEEEEE

[exotic spoke]

Lfr for individuals, Normal is for social guilds, heroic for more advanced and mythic is top tier

[outer dew]

tbh

I'd also prefer if they made raid groups smaller

[chilly brook]

But at the same time I also wonder how much of an impact that would have in raids when the attendance boss is already a problem. Having several difficulties plays into that shortcoming of players and allowing what should be group content to become solo content contributes to it even more

[spice ferry]

honestly who thought making the cutscene skippable but made you wait for it to end as if you had watched it was a good idea

[sand egret]

Tofu, I wouldn't be surprised if that happens next expansion

[chilly brook]

I mean raids can be as small as you’d like just not in Mythic. 😜

[spice ferry]

10 man groups are still generally kinda fucked on one or two bosses per tier

[sand egret]

they've gotten a lot better at designing more diverse mechanics that aren't just inflated by having X + 1 of them

if they go from the ground up in a whole expac, I could see that flesh out for raids being like 10-15

[exotic spoke]

Konrad, you can say the same about larger groups too

[sand egret]

the issue comes down to larger class design in a lot of ways too

[exotic spoke]

It’s damn near impossible to balance every boss for every raid size equally

[sand egret]

yeah, having breakpoints for "flex" where you'd get another debuff was a huge issue

[chilly brook]

Which is another reason why I think flex is bad

[spice ferry]

some fights are harder with more people, but i remember someone who ran a 10man guild wrote something up about them early bod and a couple sounded really really rough

or it might have been uldir actually, cant rememebr

[exotic spoke]

Oh absolutely Konrad. Ghunn in particular I think

[chilly brook]

I mean it really should be stick to one size with as small amount of difficulties as possible to create the best content possible and put the foot down

Imo at least

[exotic spoke]

Times are a changing. As you’ve mentioned the attendance boss is a real issue

[spice ferry]

yeah now that i talk about it i think it was for uldir. Ghuun was a nightmare for them. They had to reroll specific classes to make it viable to do orbs

[sand egret]

yeah, I'd put money on them going back to 10-15

come 9.0

and just design around that

[exotic spoke]

Had 18 last Thursday on mythic mekkatorque progression. Week before we had a 5% wipe

We maintain a roster of 26-28 people. Bad convergence of events but still

[sand egret]

maybe throw in some specific, world-boss like events for more

[exotic spoke]

2-3-10?

[spice ferry]

We're probably up to about 10/12 people having come to jaina and bailed because they cbf with wow anymore

[sand egret]

yeah

assuming they're still going to ride that model 😃

[spice ferry]

theres 15/16 of us who are constant, but those last 4/5 spots keep rotating through people

making prog a nightmare

and our officers are constantly recruiting/poaching haha

[exotic spoke]

TBf, I think I’m done again after bfa. Purely from a time to get other things sorted in life. I’ll finally be finished with school again too. So it coincides with that

[chilly brook]

I partially think the attendance boss has a lot to do with how fragmented the playerbase is when it comes to difficulties

[sand egret]

that's another thing that's prob going to get a facelift in 9.0, guilds

[spice ferry]

yeah i could agree with that Griff

[exotic spoke]

@spice ferry you’re lucky. We have to go cross server to recruit now. Literally the only mythic guild on server and we’ve poached everyone worth a damn

[stark sage]

@chilly brook i think they could really beenfit from making xrealm mythic more accessible

[chilly brook]

Lots of people who have only done normal who are scared of heroic or people who are in heroic that are too scared to try Mythic because they think it’s some crazy hard stuff

[spice ferry]

haha we probably should be doing that too

[exotic spoke]

I don’t think so, for us I think it’s burn out. We’ve maintained the same core since start of legion

[chilly brook]

The reality is it’s not any more difficult other than having to do your job

[spice ferry]

imo we have a few dead weight even in the group that's stuck around, but they're sticking around.

[chilly brook]

But how do we get some of those players to dip their toes in

[exotic spoke]

Less forgiving but not more difficult for sure

[sand egret]

reduce the amount of people required to do it

[stark sage]

increase the pool of people who have access to it

[exotic spoke]

Change the perception as well

[chilly brook]

@stark sage I agree I don’t see a reason to put off xrealm Mythic when they’ve removed every other server specific ecosystem

[exotic spoke]

Mythic raiding is seen as super hardcore. Let’s be honest - it’s not

[sand egret]

like how many of those subset, think that way but will never prove themselves wrong because there's not enough people willing to try it

[exotic spoke]

2 day a week is the within the norm

[strong forum]

@spice ferry we're in the same boat

Having to constantly rotate new recruits

[chilly brook]

Hardcore and casual are a matter of perspective

[spice ferry]

2 day week guilds are great because some people enjoy m+ just as much/more and would rather have a night or two do to that content as well

[stark sage]

@chilly brook i like the inter server politics and drama it creates, but its just not worth it at this point. so many low pop realms never get far in mythic because there isnt enough good raiders on the realm

[chilly brook]

Everyone has a different view on it

[spice ferry]

majority of my guild has that mindset

[exotic spoke]

Agree griff. And we’d have to change the perception if that’s a major root cause imo

[spice ferry]

there are plenty of guilds who dont even get to kill the end boss on mythic

like

[stark sage]

@spice ferry yeah like 99% of them

[spice ferry]

there was a guild who got realm first argus DURING BFA

[strong forum]

We are 2 day aswell and not many are willing to raid dogshit

[chilly brook]

@stark sage I don’t even think you can call inter server politics and drama a thing anymore with how much of server locked stuff is gone

[exotic spoke]

Jesus

Honestly, is realm first Jaina still a thing?

[strong forum]

It's scary how many guilds disbanded on jaina or swapped away

[stark sage]

@chilly brook my realm is fairly low pop, and the 3 mythic progress guilds kinda have our own little community, which is really fun.

@exotic spoke my realm has one guild 8/9 atm

[strong forum]

On dead realms 100% @exotic spoke

[exotic spoke]

No like - I mean is it an achievement

aww shit son. I’m on a dead realm

I’ll be pushing for that if we don’t kill her this tier

Saying we should go back lol

[strong forum]

There's prolly some realms where you can still get ghuun / antorus realm first

[sand egret]

I also think a lot of people are in the "wrong" guilds, (as in not a fit for what they truly want to do) but stay there due to stuff like not wanting to xfer, not visible alternatives, the PITA it is to find a guild, etc.

[stark sage]

i dont think realmfirst is an achievement from the game system perspective, but i'm pretty sure you still get the realmwide announcement

[strong forum]

It is

[exotic spoke]

The fact that blizzards way of finding a guild is dogshit contributes

[spice ferry]

@strong forum I'm oceanic horde. There would be at least 10/15 GOOD (CE) guilds who have moved to alliance, or disbanded and had most of their members move there solo

[strong forum]

You get the feat of strength

[spice ferry]

honestly id be surprised if there is a raiding scene on oceanic horde in 9.0

[sand egret]

yeah Riki

[spice ferry]

like a serious one anyway

[exotic spoke]

To alliance?! Why alliance

[sand egret]

i expect to see that getting a facelift

[strong forum]

Cuz "easier" Hall of fame

[spice ferry]

For some reason alliance is far better in oceanic

[sand egret]

the guild system in game is doing them NO favors

[exotic spoke]

Best way is wowprogress

That’s bad

[strong forum]

Well on the best alliance Server we had like 20 top tier guilds disband or swap over to horde on jaina

Fucking pussies

[chilly brook]

@sand egret xrealm raiding restrictions doesn’t help, as much as I’d like to get into a great guild and get back into raiding I feel almost principally scammed in that I have to pay blizz $20 to xfer to raid and have a good game experience on top of what I already pay them

[strong forum]

Top tier as in realm top

[sand egret]

I agree with ya

there should be at least a lock-out where you can get a free xfer for an account after X time

[strong forum]

It's scary how even on the best and biggest alliance Server you have to scramble for good players

EU that is

[spice ferry]

there will be 20-25 horde barth guilds to get CE (some of which have left already). There are almost the same amount of guilds on Frostmourne Alliance that are 8/9. Let alone the 40ish guilds with Ce already

and barth is the biggest by far horde oceanic server

[chilly brook]

I mean tbh xrealm Mythic shouldn’t have a lock how else am I supposed to trial and know it’s a good fit before transferring

[spice ferry]

the next best is like one or two CE guilds

[strong forum]

Wait that's it's on oce?

[sand egret]

if xrealm is to be locked out...it shouldn't be for nearly as long as it is now

[spice ferry]

there are a few other realms

[chilly brook]

I’d just say remove it entirely imo

[strong forum]

40 guilds?

[spice ferry]

but they all have like at best one or two CE guilds per

[strong forum]

On entirety oce?

[sand egret]

i appreciate the idea for it

there are "rewards", as you stated, that promote the system =). But yeah, it's definitely too long imho

anywho, good talks

gotta split

[chilly brook]

K

[spice ferry]

nah. There are 40 guilds with CE bod on FM alli (now) with another 15/20 at 8/9 and plenty more at 7/9.

there will be 20/25 guilds with CE bod on Barth horde.

there are a few other servers that will get 1-2 CE guilds each at best.

of those 20/25, at least 5-6 have already moved to Fm alli

and plenty more died due to the good players being scarse or moved as a guild to FM alli

[strong forum]

Ye, eu alliance is in the same boat

[spice ferry]

honestly if you want to raid seriously as oce, you go FM alli, but i've been horde for years and have all bar 4 toons at 120 (and those 4 are all on their way there)

i was lucky to find a guild that fit my schedule and had CE as an attainable goal or i'd have gone already

[strong forum]

Faction balance is truly saddening

For a mythic raider

It's borderline impossible to get good players

Unless you become a bitch and transfer over

[spice ferry]

also, horde OCE got their first 1/2m guild THIS RESET

[strong forum]

Well not many are raiding a pointless raid

Tbh

[chilly brook]

Could you imagine giving both factions compelling reasons to be that faction instead of perpetuating imbalance every expansion since WoD?

[strong forum]

There's no incentive besides World rank

[spice ferry]

true

but Fm has 5 guilds in the top 100 for it

[exotic spoke]

Just consolidate already

[strong forum]

You can't @chilly brook

[chilly brook]

Oh you can

[spice ferry]

you gotta sell faction changes somehow

[chilly brook]

It’d be controversial though

[strong forum]

It's impossible to balance it unless blizzard makes it so you can transfer for free to alliance

Your entire account and guild

[exotic spoke]

Racials forced most to horde.

We’ve been dealing with that issue ever since

[chilly brook]

Two new classes hit em with faction locks :Pepega

[strong forum]

If you buff alliance racials it would be imbalanced

And everyone would be alliance and horde would slowly scramble

And you'd have the same shit

[exotic spoke]

the racials are good now. But to balance it they’d have to imbalance racials and that would just perpetuate the issue in the other direction

[chilly brook]

I mean tbh I member when everyone went alliance in WoD cuz that good ol human racial

[strong forum]

The only way to approach it is have free transfers

At this point

[chilly brook]

I’d agree

[exotic spoke]

I thought horde was better before wod

[spice ferry]

or do away with servers because they're 99% irrelevant now anyway

just have regions

[strong forum]

People went alliance for pvp, dunno about raiding

Alliance is still better for pvp

[exotic spoke]

Fair. Human racial was op in tbc / wotlk

[chilly brook]

But I mean if you had two equally important classes but each was exclusive to one faction you have a compelling reason to be either

[strong forum]

But most players are horde

So most people will go horde

[chilly brook]

Human racial was broke in WoD

[spice ferry]

remove the mythic lockout, change it from realm first to region firsts and your done

[strong forum]

It's that simple

[chilly brook]

I mean like for me personally I’m having a helluva time deciding what faction to be in classic simply based off the pally/shaman dynamic

[exotic spoke]

No, mythic lockout needs to be there Imo.

[lusty grotto]

Human racial was good, but my guild still decided to transfer horde because the alliance pop on our server was just about dead in WoD

[exotic spoke]

What was it in wod. That’s the one expac I never played

[chilly brook]

Double DPS trinket in pvp

While retaining your cc break

[strong forum]

The class thing is what is breaking my guild apart on which faction go play in classic... Not fun

[exotic spoke]

Oh, yeah same as it was in tbc / wotlk

[spice ferry]

i mean get rid of mythic being only on server

[chilly brook]

EMFH worked on all cc

[lusty grotto]

It's easy... Alliance

[exotic spoke]

It already is Konrad.

[spice ferry]

from the beginning of the tier though

[oblique garnet]

The answer is horde

[lusty grotto]

On classic there's not even a compelling discussion about it

[exotic spoke]

Emfh was like that in tbc I think. Or at least wotlk

[oblique garnet]

Alliance wont be superior in classic

Atleast in eu

[strong forum]

That's the issue, our healing officer is shaman OTP if he can't play shaman he doesn't play at all

[chilly brook]

@lusty grotto I’m leaning alliance because my first main was a blood elf pally in tbc

[lusty grotto]

Shamans are only good on viscidius

[exotic spoke]

But you want human for AQ gates

[supple path]

Alliance are nakedly superior in vanilla, yeah. Windfury totem was just not an answer to judgment of light/wisdom blessing of might/salv/kings/wisdom.

And paladins are also way more mana efficient healers in vanilla than shamans.

[lusty grotto]

You want to be alliance cause salv, di, and blessings are flat out broken

[oblique garnet]

Im talking about based on the population of servers

[lusty grotto]

In comparison to wf and whatever

[strong forum]

EU is horde cancer, sadly

[warm plinth]

Yeah windfury is good but you have to play an absolute trashpile of a spec to have it

[lusty grotto]

Alliance also has fear ward, while horde has tremor

[strong forum]

But alas, I gotta somehow fall asleep now

[exotic spoke]

But... but... STORMSTRIKE

[lusty grotto]

Nah man

If I was to play classic I'd be alliance all the way, no questions asked

[exotic spoke]

And “unbreakable” pvp shaman OP... I saw the video

[supple path]

I'll never forgive them for how much harder Sapphiron was on horde than alliance.

[lusty grotto]

There's not even a single reason to be horde to push pve

[exotic spoke]

Human warrior - 31/5/15 if I play again

[lusty grotto]

Well visc but he's optional

[exotic spoke]

Then later swap to 17/34

[chilly brook]

I mean if I was a tank I’d want windfury

[lusty grotto]

Which goes for the daily reminder of I'm never playing classic

No, you don't

You want salv

[warm plinth]

You want more opportunities for the boss to parry you and instagib you?

[lusty grotto]

For your dps

[supple path]

Windfury was half the relative threat gain that salv was, at best, yeah.

[warm plinth]

🙃

[exotic spoke]

Untamed blade + sword spec + crusader is good times. Then upgrading to asscandy

[supple path]

Its only real purpose was to make arms warriors smash faces in pvp.

[lusty grotto]

And as soon as you get a tfury, you won't even need any of the 2

[chilly brook]

Well I meant more or less I’d want tfury for the extra rage as a tank

[lusty grotto]

No

Hell fucking no lol

[sick sentinel]

thunderfury is a tank weapon

[supple path]

I think he meant wfury

[lusty grotto]

Yes he meant windfury

[sick sentinel]

oh

[lusty grotto]

But yes tfury drops of guilds are smart should 100% go to tanks to tanks

[chilly brook]

Yes I did

Mean windfury

[lusty grotto]

And like i said, once you get that as prot, you won't even need salv or whatever

[chilly brook]

And hell yea I want the extra rage to be selfish

[exotic spoke]

I don’t plan on playing classic but I wonder how anal guilds are going to be about debuff slots

[lusty grotto]

If only the extra rage did anything significant

[spice ferry]

The hardcore ones quite serious I’d bet

[lusty grotto]

But it doesn't

[exotic spoke]

Eh, in hindsight, with what’s been learned and practiced since release 15 years ago, I don’t think content will be hard at all. Just a major fucking grind

[oblique garnet]

People are assuming too much that the raids will be hard because they couldnt do them in vanilla

[lusty grotto]

woo you get more rage to use on HS, for your whole 10 dps more haha

they won't be hard

[supple path]

Raids won't be hard until later naxx40 stuff

[oblique garnet]

Theres so much knowledge these days all will be a joke

[lusty grotto]

if people are assuming that they are flat out retarded

[supple path]

Where you need 40 people who don't chew their own power cables.

[lusty grotto]

the only hard thing is 40 people management

[exotic spoke]

Raids in vanilla don’t stand the test of time in terms of difficulty

[lusty grotto]

and that's not even remotely hard anymore

[oblique garnet]

I honestly dont think you will need 40 man for most content

[lusty grotto]

everyone is in voice

[spice ferry]

Only reason they were difficult back then was we were all retarded back then

[sick sentinel]

you can 5 man onyxia

[supple path]

I can only imagine what awful boss mods will be available too.

I tanked onyxia for half the fight on our first kill as a resto shaman.

[exotic spoke]

People will start farming NR gear for HuHu earlier too

[supple path]

That fight was always weirdly undertuned.

[lusty grotto]

voice in vanilla was... vent/TS? and some people just couldn't do it due to their connection speeds

[chilly brook]

Of course it does something @lusty grotto it lets me push more buttons 🙃

[lusty grotto]

but nowadays

just about everyone can join a discord

[supple path]

Yeah I don't remember my guild regularly using voice until TBC at least.

[lusty grotto]

so raid management for 40 people will not be as tedious

[exotic spoke]

The other question is - is there going to be a guild to monopolize green dragons as much as possible to fuck over their competition

[lusty grotto]

slap priority speaker on raid leads, that's it

[supple path]

You'll want to murder your guildmates for AFKing while you're racing a trash respawn still, mind you

[lusty grotto]

of course there will be riki lmao

that's 200% going to happen

[exotic spoke]

I don’t know - now tat more people know of the other strat to killing Hubu

[lusty grotto]

and obviously streamer armies are gonna wreck havoc

[exotic spoke]

I’d say fuck farming green dragons and go the other strat

[lusty grotto]

i suppose so

[exotic spoke]

Farm ZG

[lusty grotto]

but locking dragons will absolutely happen anyway

[exotic spoke]

Split into two groups and have fun farming the ZG flasks

Then don’t even bother farming NR gear from mauradon

Oh god - removing gear to tank once you got overheated

Overgeared

[lusty grotto]

lol

pants off

[spice ferry]

lol oh god forgot about that

[exotic spoke]

I still have nightmares about frost mages

[oblique garnet]

@exotic spoke guess whos gonna play mage 8)

[lusty grotto]

just get that skull shit that damages you

or engi

for fire reflect

[supple path]

Removing gear to get more rage instead of just standing in a fire or spamming sit, the shame.

[lusty grotto]

fuck your pom pyro mate

[supple path]

Goddamn just typing that made me furious at the warrior I dealt with for 5 years who would stand in any fire he could.

[exotic spoke]

@oblique garnet you traitor!

[lusty grotto]

i prefer crittercide

i still have my NOBODY TOUCH THE CRITTERS macro

[oblique garnet]

Why would i want to play tank in classic?

[warm plinth]

You only tank in classic if you hate yourself.

[exotic spoke]

Obv you play arms or fury and wreck shit

[warm plinth]

Because why would anyone put themselves through that

[oblique garnet]

And get kited by every single mage you meet in pvp

[lusty grotto]

if i were to play id play warrior again

just be gnome

[exotic spoke]

But swear to god if I catch you without ice barrier you could die in a global

[lusty grotto]

:shrug"

[chilly brook]

Idk so far tanking in classic looks fun to me

[warm plinth]

Heh.

[oblique garnet]

You mean before or after i jump your charge riki?

[exotic spoke]

It’s mindless. Don’t bother putting more than 15 points in prot

[warm plinth]

Did you play in vanilla Griff?

[lusty grotto]

haha jumping charges

[exotic spoke]

Hence why I said if I catch you late

But yeah you right

[chilly brook]

No I didn’t

[lusty grotto]

you just made me angry late

fuck jumping charges

[exotic spoke]

Have fun with the biggest grind of your life

[spice ferry]

does doing the incursions give you a juicy chunk of rep at the end?

[chilly brook]

But I mean dual wield tanking bro on ps 🙃

[lusty grotto]

reminds me in tbc arena

mount up, just spam jump

charge

you end up in africa

riki having a secret pocket hpal

will solve that really quick

[exotic spoke]

I miss globaling kids but I don’t miss being globaled

[warm plinth]

You get 500 7th legion/honorbound and 500 for the zone the assault is in @spice ferry

[lusty grotto]

have fun not having spell steal lmao

[oblique garnet]

10 second silence from counterspell 8)

Into a poly

[spice ferry]

@warm plinth ty

[oblique garnet]

Into a dead warrior

[exotic spoke]

Don’t be a dick

[lusty grotto]

i dont think you would beat prime me

regardless late

[exotic spoke]

Pvp was best between tbc - cata. Those three expansions imo

I got into muscle memory frost mage rotation and could reflect deep freeze. It was great.

[oblique garnet]

Yeah @lusty grotto prime you would be killing 11 year old me easily 8)

[lusty grotto]

i reflected everything

[chilly brook]

I honestly thought WoD pvp was pretty good

[lusty grotto]

sheeps, clones, deep freeze

[chilly brook]

But then again it was like the only thing I did outside of raid nights

[exotic spoke]

I stopped playing halfway through mop. Never got back into pvp like I was prior to mop

[lusty grotto]

goddamn i miss my friend

best fucking healer around

rip

[exotic spoke]

Fuck. I want to push arenas now

See how long it takes for me to get back to 2400

Well 2350

[oblique garnet]

Do you have the pve gear?

If you dont

Good luck

[exotic spoke]

Which pve gear?

[lusty grotto]

diamond

[oblique garnet]

Well your healer needs voidstone and maledict

[exotic spoke]

410 weapon and I’d be around 415 in arms.

I have a shitty maledict, and a 415 diamond.

Speaking of maledict - that trinket design is absolutely terrible

This expansion has two trinkets I think are terrible designs. I wish the sliver was never made.

[lusty grotto]

fuck sliver

preventing ITF stacks since

[exotic spoke]

“Stop coming close to me you’re making me drop stacks”

“Bitch, if I don’t safeguard you you’re going to die because you fucked ip and got hit by stupid shit”

[lusty grotto]

yeah

btw kinda off topic but

chernobyl was good thanks for the recommendation

[chilly brook]

If only they brought back pvp gear.....

[exotic spoke]

Meh

[chilly brook]

While they’re at it bring back glad stance 🙃

[exotic spoke]

Never played it. Don’t get the love for it. Just play prot

[lusty grotto]

i honestly think templates were good

resilience was also good

[exotic spoke]

Disagree. It’s an mmo let me choose my stats

[lusty grotto]

but with templates they balanced faster

yeah that's why there's pseudo templates now

[chilly brook]

Tbf in pvp it should be as close to as level of a playing field as possible

Hence why templates make sense

[exotic spoke]

Pushing 2200 was hard. But it felt sooo good once you did. Because you where fighting up hill

[lusty grotto]

right

[chilly brook]

But having to farm the best pve gear to do pvp just doesn’t feel right

[lusty grotto]

agreed

[exotic spoke]

Disagree. It’s an MMo. Character development should mean something

[lusty grotto]

listen man

fuck your immersion

[exotic spoke]

As for pve gear in pvp that’s an issue

Listen here nimchy.... I will straight murder some bitches

[chilly brook]

I don’t disagree that your character development should mean something but there shouldn’t be imbalances in stats in pvp

[lusty grotto]

i severely dislike the immersion claims, especially anti-flying people

[chilly brook]

It should be about your ability as a player

[exotic spoke]

There should be though it’s not an arena game. You put time into your character

[chilly brook]

I mean

Rated pvp is arenas

[exotic spoke]

There should be a reward for leveling up and getting there

[chilly brook]

Lol

[lusty grotto]

so stupid that we have to wait a year to fly

[exotic spoke]

That’s not the context I mean it in and you know that

Same word different meaning

[chilly brook]

I mean we used to have rewards for leveling up and getting there

[lusty grotto]

you used to have rewards for doing pvp

[oblique garnet]

Just give me new patch so i can go farm ap!!!

[chilly brook]

Blame blizz

[lusty grotto]

with rating locks etc

[exotic spoke]

Bring that back

[chilly brook]

^

[lusty grotto]

if a combination of that + templates is brought back

i'd be pretty good

[exotic spoke]

No templates please

[chilly brook]

The problem with balancing the gear for pvp alone though makes a problem

[lusty grotto]

^

[chilly brook]

It’d be balanced at the top end

But the bottom and mid tier would be wildly imba

[exotic spoke]

Yup. Maybe they should add a pvp stat.. that only pvp gear has but doesn’t cost itemization points?

Something to make you more powerful or more resilient perhaps

But only in pvp

[warm plinth]

Hmmm, we could call it...resilience?

[chilly brook]

Resilience

Lol

[exotic spoke]

Lol

[oblique garnet]

You mean like pvp reslience

[lusty grotto]

no

[chilly brook]

Even then though still creates the imba

[warm plinth]

Guys I think I'm on to something here

[lusty grotto]

resilience had its time and place

same as vanilla

[warm plinth]

But no I agree. PvP should be templated gear and outcomes should be based on player skill alone.

[lusty grotto]

its not relevant anymore

[warm plinth]

But I don't PvP so I don't really care. 😃

[lusty grotto]

yup ghash

[chilly brook]

I’d say the ideal would be what Ghash said

[oblique garnet]

Resilience alone wouldnt save you during mop prepatch

Warlocks would just kill anyone in sight

[warm plinth]

I've always thought that PvP should be balanced separately from PvE as well.

[chilly brook]

Still give you stat choices in template items and bring back pvp vendors for gear for pve

Obviously not the best gear but enough to get you into normal or whatever

[exotic spoke]

I disagree because you’re not playing a shooter or a moba. You’re playing an mmo. Character development, for lack of a better phrase, means if you put time into gearing your character you should do better than a fresh one

[lusty grotto]

that's exactly the system we have today

pvp is competitive

competition shouldn't be held back by you killing monkeys and getting rng blessed

you should reward skill, not luck

[chilly brook]

We don’t have vendors though?

[exotic spoke]

I agree with that. But pvp content should reward pvp gear. However, if I’m getting better pvp gear because I’m pushing the content - I should have an advantage

[chilly brook]

Or template gear? We just have blanket template stats

[exotic spoke]

Similar to how weapons were 1800 or 2k - whatever - and shoulders where 2200

Rating required

[warm plinth]

I wouldn't mind doing what they did in BC again though, just have vendors for PvP gear so you can still have the feeling of gearing up. But don't allow PvE gear in the arena/BGs

[lusty grotto]

bros

[chilly brook]

Like pve trinkets shouldn’t work in pvp at all

[lusty grotto]

you get 415 items if you're 2400+

from the weekly chest

[warm plinth]

You're a weekly chest

[chilly brook]

Lul I’m not gonna hit 2400

[oblique garnet]

You get 415 items at 2100

[exotic spoke]

That’s fine is what I’m saying nim. As long as it’s pvp gear it should keep its stats as is

[lusty grotto]

well there you go

[chilly brook]

I’m not a good pvp DPS

And I’m not that good of a healer

[exotic spoke]

Scale pve gear to the appropriate level?

[lusty grotto]

but that's what we have

today

[warm plinth]

I don't trust Blizz to scale things properly. I'd rather have content-specific gear personally.

[oblique garnet]

I would need to do that on my shaman to get bis azerite for it😡

[lusty grotto]

you're not reading, it feels like

[dapper canyon]

I pug a lot on NA realms, does anyone else have issues finding out after a key starts that you're grouped with Oceanic people and getting a lot of lag?

[chilly brook]

No I’m reading

But I think you’re missing what I’m saying

[warm plinth]

PvE gear usable in PvE; PvP gear usable in PvE, and they don't cross

[lusty grotto]

i wasn't replying to you griff

[exotic spoke]

I can’t read

[chilly brook]

Ah

[lusty grotto]

i was replying to riki

[exotic spoke]

I’m just saying - no templates like BC

[warm plinth]

@dapper canyon Just gotta remember which realms are OCE and avoid inviting them.

[lusty grotto]

the only reason why there's very specific items that stand out is because of their effectgs

[exotic spoke]

Sorry like legion

[warm plinth]

Or make sure that a non-OCE person goes into the dungeon first

[chilly brook]

Cuz I was saying like go to a menu pick certain pieces of gear that auto equip when going into pvp (kinda like GW2), and have currency that you go to an actual vendor to spend on pve gear

[dapper canyon]

Is that how it picks a shard, by who enters first?

[warm plinth]

That's been my experience

I have a couple guys I play with pretty regularly on OCE and that seems to determine it for us. Because I'd rather they play at 300ms than me XD

[dapper canyon]

Why does blizzard connect Oceanic realms with NA ones ?

[lusty grotto]

we have a system (what i call BFA templating) where it caps your stats at a certain point but still keeps any amounts you push towards on those specific secondaries

that's the system we have

so you stacking mastery

[warm plinth]

Because they have to connect them to someone or they wouldn't have enough people to play with

[lusty grotto]

will stay as stacking mastery

instead of giving you idk crit/haste or some shit

[warm plinth]

And since Australia speaks English, it makes more sense to have them on NA than EU

[lusty grotto]

(which was legion's templating system)

[dapper canyon]

Good point

[warm plinth]

You figure we probably have (completely guessing here) 1 million players in the US with a population of over 300 million; how many do you think they have with a population of like 25 million haha. They'd just have super dead servers.

[lusty grotto]

yeah GW2's system

is actually great

but again GW2 has no actual world pvp outside its RVR/ SPVP

[chilly brook]

But it also scales 1% with every 10 ilvl doesn’t it @lusty grotto

?

[lusty grotto]

im not exactly sure

gotta look that one up

[chilly brook]

But it’s not like wpvp actually matters

I’m pretty sure it did in legion

[lusty grotto]

but yeah the scaling should be small

[chilly brook]

The 1% scaling thing

[warm plinth]

That sounds right

[lusty grotto]

some people are adamant about it

world pvp i mean

which is stupid

and they have been pushing for it a lot

Horde VS Alliance

etc etc etc

[oblique garnet]

World pvp is fun as prot warrior

[lusty grotto]

i mean

[oblique garnet]

1v7 is winnable if they dont have ret paladin or a healer

[lusty grotto]

kinda just saying in comparison to gw2

[warm plinth]

End result of BfA: One faction to rule them all. Mwahahahaha.

[chilly brook]

I win most of my world pvp engagements but I still find it just a pain in the ass

[lusty grotto]

legion world pvp was stupid

but bfa world pvp is decent

[chilly brook]

Legion world pvp as a prot warrior 👌🏻

[oblique garnet]

I was doing wqs on my monk he didnt stand a chance so i logged my warrior and killed people for few hours as a revenge 10/10 would recommend

[lusty grotto]

that much i can admit

[warm plinth]

I lose most of mine because I don't get jumped by anyone that doesn't vastly outgear me. And I'm complete trash at PvP. My shining moment in PvP was getting Rival in Season 2.

[chilly brook]

Had some dudes complain about me playing a “bitch spec” while knocking out some of the neutral pvp world quests

Had some same faction warlock cuss me out because I clapped him every time in world pvp when he would attack me

[lusty grotto]

the whole aviana thing sure was fun

that is something i really liked

[warm plinth]

I think it would be enlightening for them to remove the faction requirement for world PvP for a week.

[lusty grotto]

fucking turning on that shit and wrecking your same faction

[warm plinth]

Just so people can see that it's not one faction that has all the "kids that have to mob you"

[lusty grotto]

that shit was good

[chilly brook]

Idk what decent pvp is in BFA, the only world pvp I normally get is 40 alliance camping a turtle quest

[warm plinth]

See ^ lol

[lusty grotto]

that's kind of a result of the whole faction imbalance reward shit

[warm plinth]

I've heard complaints about that since vanilla.

[lusty grotto]

you can certainly find good pvp in it though

[warm plinth]

How x faction is a bunch of little kids who can't fight 1v1

[lusty grotto]

no

that's not what i mean

alliance gets bigger ilvl rewards

so they raid up

or group up since the quest doesn't work in raids

[oblique garnet]

I miss when i was tauren and used goblin gliders to fly around the map people would panic when hmt tauren jumped from the air right next to them and started clapping

[warm plinth]

They get 385 gear

[lusty grotto]

eh?

[oblique garnet]

They get 400 gear horde gets 385

[lusty grotto]

im getting 400s

[warm plinth]

If they have 20% or higher bonus

Are you talking about the PvP quest?

[oblique garnet]

Yes

[warm plinth]

Against Overwhelming Odds?

[lusty grotto]

yes

[oblique garnet]

Its 400

[warm plinth]

They had nerfed it to 385 before because everyone was bitching about it. When did it get put back?

[oblique garnet]

When horde got one

Legit horde has gotten one of those

[warm plinth]

Oh, is yours the same thing?

Oh you mean you got it once instead of alliance

[oblique garnet]

Yup

[warm plinth]

Idk what they were thinking with that. I doubt horde is ever going to see the positive side of that implementation

The one you got must have been a huge fluke tbh lol

[oblique garnet]

I mean we got it 2 weeks after it was implemented because every horde had to turn it off because you couldnt stay in dazar alor at all

[chilly brook]

Didn’t Limit xfer their whole roster to take advantage of that before the BFD race?

[oblique garnet]

Like you couldnt legit login great seal

[warm plinth]

Yeah because you could do the quest in raids still

Yeah they did

I participated in one of the raids actually lol

[chilly brook]

Lol

[warm plinth]

Not Limit's; I just meant one of the raids when you could still do it as a raid

[waxen sand]

Me prot warrior

Me hit thunder clap

Me get hit but use last stand

Me unstoppable now.

[chilly brook]

👢 🍵 👏

[oblique garnet]

Accurate

[astral crystal]

damn the nerfs to the td cannons

and the buff to priestess in ad

real goofy stuff happening in 8.2

[spice ferry]

the td cannon thing is justified imo. skipping 3/4 the instance and cannoning it is dumb

TD is an absolute meme of a dungeon

and priestess is far easier than any other encounter in m+, not a surprise she got buffed

[junior ivy]

when is cyberpunk 2077 coming out?!

[fierce juniper]

in 2077

[junior ivy]

lol i got an email saying its available for preorder

didnt expect it so soon

[steel mauve]

april 2020 i think

[chilly brook]

^

04-2020

[junior ivy]

whaaat thats so far

[steel mauve]

"didnt expect it so soon"

"thats so far!"

[junior ivy]

lol i mean once i saw it was pre orderable

i assumed it was a few months away

[chilly brook]

everything is being pushed to 2020 tbh

Next Gen Xbox is Holiday 2020

On a side note, I'd rather them take extra time and do this right

[wispy plume]

we still use haste food or main stat food?

not counting feast

[warm plinth]

Haste food

[orchid sand]

I threw a http://us.battle.net/wow/en/item/153487 at the pack on the stairs before Vol'kaal

Four tries in a solo heroic

the first three times it dint work. but the fourth try ended up sheeping both Reanimated honor guards and one of the witch doctors.

Tried on a +9 and pulled all

lol

[mortal brook]

nice

[inland mesa]

Where are people finding m+ changes?

[mortal brook]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=292221/8-2-ptr-dungeon-tuning-ataldazar-freehold-tol-dagor-buffs

"guys, our failure rates for ML, KR, and SotS are too high what do we do about it?" "idk, nerf the ones with higher success rates?"

[spice ferry]

HAHAHAHAHA

[oblique garnet]

@mortal brook realistically 15 shots is all you need to complete the dungeon the only problems in new season i can see happening is with the emissaries being in there namely enchanted one

[mortal brook]

imagine the cannon reflecting and killing the cannon 😄

[oblique garnet]

It just kills you like spellreflecting does

[mortal brook]

yeah without reaping especially doable in 15 shots