Great thanks mate
#protection
paper holly
outer dew
if you wanna cheese io
you start the key in one spec
walk and out respec into the other
since it only counts what you started with
neon tangle
@honest canopy weird experience sunday, I found a heroic-only guild to run my alts with on sundays
I was the only melee dps
I wish my actual mythic guild had that many ranged
mental scarab
hell yea 96% parse on last boss in CoS
honest canopy
@neon tangle sounds lik QoL stuff
Our rogue said i ha e to stop raid. Then shows up when we start to extend xD
I wish we would punish stuff like that. Ppl Who obv just dont give a shit about any thing except them selfes since its a team game after all.
warm plinth
Congrats bb
lusty grotto
tyty
fresh valley
welcome to the big leagues
warm plinth
Meanwhile, in Ghash-land
lusty grotto
aww ghash
i need to level a dps but im not sure what
then maybe i can help out with that io
can probably just level my dh
river river
Hey can any one send me a pm with some good tank addons (total noob) but trying to learn tanking 😃
warm plinth
Haha, that's actually on my DH (my highest score). My warrior's score is an amazing ZEROOOO
mint adder
Do you not like m+ ghash?
warm plinth
I love M+. I just haven't been putting a lot of effort into it this expansion.
Been leveling a ton of alts
mint adder
Gotcha, you need to push that score uup my friend
warm plinth
I'll get it up there at some point. Been doing more runs lately. Most of my runs so far have just been because someone was like hey want to do this?
Actually I think all of them have been.
undone sun
How often do you pug
warm plinth
Uhh, I've not done a single run that didn't have at least one other person I knew in it. Most have been with a full group of guildies.
sand egret
Join the pug life!
warm plinth
Meh
undone sun
Then I'm sure I don't have to tell you this but... Then score doesn't matter in the slightest
sand egret
You'll learn valuable life lessons like self-restraint, and game-theory
undone sun
Pugging is the worst part of doing keys
warm plinth
Exactly my thinking Thyme. IDGAF 😉
I have a theory that pugging is awful, and I don't really want to prove it.
sand egret
eh, pugging isn't bad per se. It's shitty players (not skill, but just shitty people) that ruin keys. Chances are just higher to run into them if they aren't pre-vetted like your guildies are
warm plinth
I pugged pretty much every run except a few in Legion. I don't think pugging is as bad as people act like it is. It just depends on the attitude you approach it with.
sand egret
I can tell you for a fact, that as a tank you can kinda do your own shit and people fall in line pretty often
I've been doing it all BFA
mint adder
I just don’t like putting my disappointment in the hands of volatile pugs, i haven’t pugged on my main in a couple months
warm plinth
If you get insta-triggered every time a run doesn't get timed, you should probably try not to pug.
sand egret
the amount of times I've had a "shitty pug experience" are far fewer than average to good ones
the bad ones just stand out more
warm plinth
I'm pretty chill. I can't say I've never been frustrated that something didn't get timed (like when I was going for KSM in Legion), but I mean, it's an accepted part of pugging.
sand egret
yeah, you gotta approach it the right way
warm plinth
If you can't be prepared for the run to not go well, then idk what to tell you really.
sand egret
But as the tank, you have the keys to that car so it's pretty easy to drive it your way
that helps a lot tempering expectations
warm plinth
Yeah, definitely have a bit more control as the tank.
I just get annoyed at the people who are like waah I can't get above 1k because PUGs are terrible waaah
sand egret
like last night I was running this SoB and I had a few dps that seemed a bit green when it came to mongo pulls
warm plinth
And I'm like, you're either the problem, or you just aren't vetting anyone before you invite them.
sand egret
so I built them up slower and by the end they were in it to win it
mint adder
Right, leavers are pretty problematic though in my opinion. I don’t see it a ton in the higher keys but there should be a report system imo
sand egret
I haven't had someone leave a key of mine in actual months
warm plinth
yeah I rarely ever have people leave keys unless it's really obvious we just can't complete it.
warm plinth
But that's another thing that is awesome as a tank, because I basically just ignore the people bitching.
mint adder
It only happens when I’m gearing an alt and the tank doesn’t like something or someone comments on another person’s play
mint adder
Yeah I love tanking on my main, but every now and again i wanna chill on my BM hunter and my bee pet
warm plinth
I would probably do M+ more if I worked different hours. It's usually just a hassle to do M+ when you work night shift.
ocean acorn
how many alts do u have ghash
sand egret
makes sense, I just dont get it haha. Not tanking in WoW is very weird to me
mint adder
And youre alli right ghash
mint adder
NA or EU
modern brook
fucking traitor
mint adder
Damn that’s a lot
warm plinth
I would have more but half of them are complete rerolls
Once I get my hunter to 120 (111 now) and level a rogue, I'll have everything at 120.
2 of my 120s are monks and 2 are DHs
My rogue is like 97 I think
ocean acorn
damn nice
im only at 9 120s all horde
but i did some heritage armor lines
so i have nightborne and zandalarri
warm plinth
I RAFed the first 90 levels.
timber nest
undone sun
I did that in wod, half in legion 2 in BFA 🤣
stark fox
How many ilvls is a socket typically worth (not including on trinkets)
lusty grotto
5 ilvls on gear,
10 ilvls on rings and trinkets,
0 ilvls on weapons and shields
lusty grotto
5 ilvls on gear,
10 ilvls on rings,
0 ilvls on weapons and shields
modern brook
nice i agree
maybe not 5 on gear depends on slot imo
but on the whole i think thats a great guideline
warm plinth
Only gear slots I'd drop for a socket (5 ilvl) would probably be bracers or cloak. I'm just sayin'
Don't @ me
modern brook
I agree
Though I do believe we're reaching a stat saturation point where its probably worth re-evaluating our graphs
Until i get off my lazy bumbum thoughim just going to trust marok looked far enough into the future and say he's right
warm plinth
From a DPS perspective, we're probably getting to the point where secondaries are going to outweigh primaries. But it'll be a question of how much survivability are you willing to give up for the DPS increase. And how do you really measure that loss?
modern brook
even froma survivability persepective
Armor /Stam/str (ie: ilvl) are already lower on our stat prio than haste 🤷
the reason we still go for ilvl over haste is that haste is acheivable in more ways
Armor Stam are only accessible via IlvL and very shitty trinkets
Str also comes along with it and the combination of those 3 stats is worth more than lower ilvl'd haste
The question of course, is have we reached a point where our current values of armor/stam are high enough that added points would be worth less then haste
Which I'm pretty sure is no
Mostly cause i enjoy how easy gearing is for us
but i havent done any personal research in that
warm plinth
I leave that sort of thing up to the smart people.
modern brook
And I'm not confident Marok has looked that far into the future since he wrote the guide
so I think its something thats def worth a relook
My hunch is that ilvl> all still
but i tihnk that 5 ilvls for a socket on bracers and cloaks will start to be expanded to other slots
maybe bumped to 10 on bracer/back
15 on rings 🤷
its very possible
warm plinth
Isn't that what usually happens though? Secondaries start to be better than strength as gear gets better?
modern brook
YEah its not out of the ordinary
in fact its so in the ordinary half the re-rollers here are still baffled by the fact that we dont currently have a stat piority worth gearing around
oh @fierce juniper is on
Maybe he has some better insight than me pretending im a TCer
warm plinth
You poser
modern brook
🤠
warm plinth
He's showing idle for me btw so he either doesn't like you or he's busy
modern brook
Our scaling is too absurd for haste to not take over ilvl at somepoint this expansion w/o nerfs, imo
🤷 its very possible both is true
warm plinth
😂
modern brook
He'll see the ping when he's back though and hopefully He'll ping me back cause im super interested in his response
neon tangle
@modern brook How's the rogue going?
dense flame
I wish more 20+ keys would be successful 😑
modern brook
I'm a master 🤠 @neon tangle
warm plinth
Yeah, which is kind of a bummer tbh because I disliked gearing in Legion where you couldn't take higher ilevel shit because the stats sucked.
At least we don't have the tier sets doing that anymore.
modern brook
Honestly i absolutely love the azerite gear system
short of how absolute pissy it is to get the gear you want at a reasonable ilvl
warm plinth
I don't really have a feeling one way or the other on the azerite system. The only part I have any kind of strong feeling about is that I think it's too difficult to get.
modern brook
I think Azerite addresses the issues of teir sets really well
neon tangle
wait, what are you cowboying
modern brook
My rogue is a master
warm plinth
Are there many traits out there besides DC that are worth dropping ilevel for (not talking just prot traits)?
modern brook
honestly i dont even think DC is worth dropping ilvl for anymore
Oh not just in prot
Yeah theres a lot
neon tangle
boomkin, etc can drop to like 385s over 415s depending on traits
warm plinth
Which doesn't really solve the tier problem. It just makes it marginally less horrible.
neon tangle
rogues worth dropping a lot of ilvls for wits
modern brook
but its also much easier to get comparatively leveled azerite gear than it is to titan forge your t19 becuase ur playing surv hunter and its still a 19% damage increase over ABT gear
I tihnk the generic traits are a mistake
or at least poorly implemented
warm plinth
Yeah but it would still feel like shit to drop 30 ilevels on a piece of gear because you've had shit RNG on getting a higher piece with the trait you want. Like I said, it's marginally better because you have more opportunities to get that "set bonus" as it were, but it's still not ideal.
modern brook
I mean yeah
Fair
But shit rng is always going to feel bad
its like "oh i rolled shoulders and got the same one 8 times ina row, this systems broken"
warm plinth
I don't mind traits being really good but it shouldn't feel mandatory to equip a 30 ilevel downgrade to make sure you're competitive.
modern brook
like not really, you just got unlucky, sorry that u suck shit 🤷
The same argument could be made for Teir sets though
warm plinth
I know. I'm not arguing for tier sets. I'm thrilled they're gone.
modern brook
I mean dont get me wrong
Azerite armor has a lot of flaws
but i tihnk conceptually it answers that problem really well
warm plinth
Tier sets were even worse because not only did you need a combination of pieces, but you had to work your other gear around those slots
neon tangle
I don't get why they don't just let it drop like normal in m+
warm plinth
Whereas azerite slots are azerite slots
modern brook
It def needs to not have that progression locked rings bullshit
thats just retarded
warm plinth
Yeah I don't see any reason not to let it drop AND give TR
vocal skiff
I definitely don't like that you have to drop ilvl for it
warm plinth
Well, that's going away in 8.2 so it won't be here too much longer.
The locked rings I mean
modern brook
M+ and Azerite is a weird relationship imo
cause on the one hand
being able to grind for 415's of your choice of azerite is dumb
like yeah it'd be nice, but froma game design perspective its not a solution to anything
warm plinth
Well, if I need x trait to be competitive without dropping 30 ilevels on a piece, I need to be able to buy a specific piece.
modern brook
Why is rng bad game design?
vocal skiff
but put grind on its place
I mean, there is still the RNG, but you can opt out of it by working harder
Or longer
warm plinth
RNG is bad game design after a point. You need protection from it in some way. And grinding is a typical MMO way to combating RNG.
modern brook
Right and both of those were addressed with the merchant
warm plinth
People have far shorter attention spans than they used to. No one wants to grind for 2 months or bonus roll for 2 months to get a piece of gear.
modern brook
work harder= higher key = more residum = faster azerite rolls
modern brook
because then you stop playing
warm plinth
There's more to the game than azerite gear.
vocal skiff
And there is more to the game than gear in general
warm plinth
By that logic, the person who magically gets 415s with perfect traits in the first 3 hours they're 120 aren't playing right now
modern brook
nah thats a fallacy ghash
My point is that if you're able to grind out your 415s by targetting +10 dungeons
warm plinth
How so? You said if you get the gear you want, you stop playing.
vocal skiff
It would still take around 7-8 weeks if you are doing 15s
And if you are doing 10s, more than 10 weeks
neon tangle
@warm plinth I'd bet a lot of money that in aggregate people getting BiS/perfect gear too easily leads to more unsubs
warm plinth
Yeah it's a very long time to get a specific piece. Hence why people usually roll and hope they beat RNJesus
neon tangle
Even if every person who gets it doesn't bail, people -in general- like goals to work towards
modern brook
I guess i can put it like this
warm plinth
I'm not saying it doesn't. But surely 2 months is too long to get the azerite piece you want.
modern brook
in legion
you could get legendaries from heroic dungeons
how many heroic ungeons did you do
warm plinth
I'm not sure what you're getting at with that.
vocal skiff
Are you saying 10s are equivalent to heroic dungeons, or that people would not grind everything they could for a shot at legendaries
Because people were doing EN long after it's time for a shot at legendaries
its* time
modern brook
I'm saying that despite the fact that legendaries were near mandatory for many classes to be played, let alone parse well, fuckin nobody spammed heroic dungeons
cause its a waste of time
lucid bough
what?
warm plinth
yeah, because there were plenty of other things to grind besides heroic that gave a better chance at legendaries, and most could potentially lead to some other benefit.
lucid bough
for*
vocal skiff
But they definitely spammed every single raid and Maw of Souls yeah
vocal skiff
It is dumb that you have to do Emerald Nightmare on normal with Antorus up
warm plinth
Yeah, I did world tours a lot in Legion.
warm plinth
And then at the end you had WQs you could do that gave the essences to purchase them
modern brook
long story short
beinga ble to grind Azerite at 415 gimps all progression and turns it into an RNG fest
rather than an actual progression
Time gates are good
dont say it too loud though
should there be a better solution to being ilvl 411 with 385 azerites
yah
but getting there in the first place is such an outlier that discussing it is nearly moot
warm plinth
Time gates are good, but why should 415 azerite still be as difficult to obtain as it is for the average player?
modern brook
because its mythic level gear
the average player
isnt a mythic level palyer
theres a reason theirs an ilvl overlap each teir
theres a reason i can Mythic Ghuun rn, when i could barely get my AotC when it was current content
(its not cause im a better player)
like lets be real
If im a mythic raider, and i have to clear mythic BoD for my azerite
how is it fair that johnny fuck all can run a +10 out of time and luck into a 415 chest?
even a 400
spice ferry
because rng is rng and who fucking cares what johnny fuck all gets
sand egret
Define "difficult to obtain" in your context @warm plinth , i'm curious what you mean by that
vocal skiff
Yeah
modern brook
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ so why does he have mythic level gear ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
spice ferry
gear is irrelevant
modern brook
Its not
spice ferry
it largely is
modern brook
but it is
vocal skiff
No longer
warm plinth
Clearing content is a measure of progress, not gear
modern brook
i mean its less of a metric than it used to be sure
warm plinth
Otherwise people would be inviting the folks with a higher ilevel, not the folks with better raid progress or a higher raider.io score.
modern brook
IDG why thats an ok thing
I dont inspect soe guy from limit and go
DUDE HIS FUCKING CADENCE
THATS SO SICK
CHECK OUT HE VELOCITY OF HIS GEAR DROPS
neon tangle
it's also kinda hard to compare the pug-heavy scene of m+ vs. mythic raids, I'm pretty OK with mythic raids having a benefit in some specific aspects (like getting az gear)
modern brook
thats retarded
sand egret
🍿
modern brook
I can look at a meaty dude in 419 overall and think dang-o
warm plinth
I would be okay with it being much easier for them to get azerite gear, if azerite gear wasn't so important to certain specs competitiveness.
spice ferry
someone from limit
modern brook
and it can mean jack shit
spice ferry
would have been 415/417 2 months ago
modern brook
which is just dumb
spice ferry
they get the same ilvl we are all able to get far faster
modern brook
big nerd thing to know
neon tangle
@warm plinth Just add some bad luck protection to the az vendor, problem solved
warm plinth
I never said it was a good thing that your gear level didn't matter. Just that it doesn't.
modern brook
🤷
spice ferry
if az vendor guaranteed you to get a piece you didn't have
rng for them would be fine imo
modern brook
if you roll and remove probabiltiies why even have the buy specifics
sand egret
since you may want the same piece but with different trait layouts
modern brook
the system is fine as is
sand egret
err for diff specs
neon tangle
@sand egret after you get all 6 make it random ? 😛
sand egret
that's even worse
modern brook
If anything I'd change the amount of weekly residium
spice ferry
^ 😄
sand egret
😃
modern brook
Or maybe make 10+s drop residum in the chest or something
warm plinth
Tbh, I just want the curve on residuum to not be so ridiculous
sand egret
anywho i like this discussion, so im just gonna sit back and listen
modern brook
IDK
spice ferry
i just think its boring that i have 3x 415s on my main
neon tangle
or just understand how it works and you know that saving for a specific is more valuable if you want a duplicate
spice ferry
that are OKAY
warm plinth
It's dumb that you do a 9 and get 215 residuum, but you do a 10 and you get 625
spice ferry
and the choice is grind tr for months for a good piece, or rng it away until i get lucky
maybe if specifics dropped a while after the season starts?
modern brook
I eman
if you wanna use your argument
You should be doing normal /h/ myhic as far as you can BoD every week for az drops and trade them in
c a d e n c e o f l o o t
spice ferry
i did heroic and normal clear each week early
sand egret
rng is only as bad as the hose its attached to
spice ferry
normally do heroic most weeks along with m prog
modern brook
Dont get me wrong dude
I'm not trying to be like "HEHEHEH UR DUIMB LOL HOW U DONT LIKE IT"
I'm just saying every system has a flaw
sand egret
what's the user story we're talking about here?
modern brook
and our current system is not bad at all
spice ferry
nothing wrong with identifying and trying to come up with a good alternative
modern brook
and that adding az drops to M+ will do 1 of 2 things
sand egret
What's the user story?
modern brook
a) absooultely nothing casue they'll come in 400 max or b) completely nullify azerite as a tihng
wary lantern
Its not that Hard to get 400 tho
sand egret
👋
neon tangle
@wary lantern it's not, but it's the only 400 slot that's not farmable
sand egret
Legit question: Should everything in WoW be farmable?
sick sentinel
nah
wary lantern
3 resets if you do only m+ not that much and they added 400 for emissary now too
neon tangle
@wary lantern which they have only had 1 of so far >.>
warm plinth
Azerite from emissaries is a joke though. You can't rely on it at all. It's RNG on top of RNG.
neon tangle
holy moly I don't need more az power at this point
sand egret
What is "hard" to get? What is "easy"?
warm plinth
You first have to get lucky enough that an azerite emissary shows up, then you have to get lucky enough that you get the slot you need. THEN you have to get lucky enough that the traits don't completely blow
sand egret
Is a farmable Heroic raid "easy"?
neon tangle
@sand egret I would be OK with there being an ilvl that's the "max" for farmable content
wary lantern
Nothing is. Hard, only tíme consuming
neon tangle
400 for all slots seems "fine" to me
warm plinth
To you, sure. Different things are hard/easy to different people.
vocal skiff
One thing that I dislike about the azerite system is the reforging cost
And there should be a way that you can save your traits choice by spec
And whenever you change
sand egret
well we can't really have a discussion using terms we can't define.
warm plinth
Hard meaning overly time-consuming or requiring you to do content above your ability.
vocal skiff
It should be there, with no need to go to the ethereal dude
sand egret
What's overly time consuming?
2 hours for a dad with 2 newborns?
or 2 hours for a college kid sitting in his dorm on a saturday
Gotta define this stuff 😃
stark sage
you can only really measure difficulty in relation to other content that is easier,
like normal vs heroic vs mythic
warm plinth
Why does a hard line need to be drawn? We don't have a specific age where we start calling someone old but I still know someone who's 100 is fucking old
stark sage
you cant really objectively say something is easy or hard in its own right
sand egret
it has to be drawn, regardless what it is, to talk about it
you just say "ok 2 hours is what we're calling "hard""
and so we can say something that is 3 hours required is "harder"
objectively
it's just how you can talk about these things
that's why I asked for a user story
frail spindle
Anyone know of a resource for good prot macros for abilities
stark sage
right, you can only relate difficulty to something that is either easier or harder than what you are dealing with, and the wider the scale the more accessible the content is, meaning there is harder stuff for better players and easier stuff for worse players
warm plinth
The icy-veins guide has some macros I believe Viking. Did you have any specific macros in mind?
sand egret
of course, but the thing is that designers and subsequently design decisions use objective lines
stark sage
which is likely why we have 4 difficulties for raids, to allow a broad audience to experience it
sand egret
true and LFR, for instance, adheres to certain design "rules" that are created under the premise of what is hard/not hard for that content
stark sage
i dont really know what point we are trying to reach, just chimin in
warm plinth
Well, idk what the hard line would be tbh. But I do know that if someone is only able to do +9s because of whatever, it shouldn't take them 2 months to get a random 415 piece.
frail spindle
like shield slam and off GCD ones
sand egret
which is why certain mechanics are clipped, because it's assumed at a certain level of difficulty. Yes, even people fail at that but the bar still exists
warm plinth
You have to cater to all of your player-base, not just the best players.
stark sage
well you dont have to
sand egret
Here's the thing:
that player, do they understand why they don't have 415s?
the logical process, as you laid out, is pretty clear. They don't have enough currency to purchase it.
They have a clear path to improve, which isn't hard-gated. It's not like they can't do 10s because the game won't let them without 415s
and their current path is also not blocked, as you said they eventually WILL get enough
the issue here is how timely that is
warm plinth
Maybe they just can't complete a dungeon at 10 or higher because the seasonal affix is too difficult for them.
sand egret
So what's your user story?
warm plinth
I'm not sure what you're asking for.
frail spindle
yah icy-veins dont have any macros that i see
sand egret
its a practice designers use when creating a feature set to make sure goals are adhere'd to
sand egret
goals often are desired player experiences
warm plinth
Left the preview in for Thyme
frail spindle
ah ty did not see that section
stark sage
well the goals for m+ and azerite rewards, is for a +10 which rewards heroic/mythic quality loot to be accessible for anyone who can raid heroic
frail spindle
i have all those
sand egret
As a user I want access to the highest level off gear doing the same content
is an example
stark sage
the difficulty of m+ should reflect the difficulty in raids, in a sense.
someone who cant raid heroic should have difficulty completing 10s in time
sand egret
it helps me better understand where you're coming from, is all
warm plinth
So first let me stop and rewind for a minute, because my personal complaint isn't really about the average player thing. I'm not saying I am above average in the sense where people could get offended (lol) but rather that I am capable of doing a +10 every week if I wanted.
sand egret
Gotcha
warm plinth
My issue is more that I can do a +10 every week on my main toon, but I'm not entertained by playing just that toon. I want to play other toons. But I don't want to be forced to do content that's boring to me (e.g. too easy) just as many times as I did it on my main character to get to the same place.
Obviously a selfish concern but idk.
It's frustrating to me as someone who enjoys playing multiple characters.
sand egret
gotcha
warm plinth
I got on the average player thing at some point and not really sure why 😅
sand egret
so As a user, you want to be able to gear alts more effectively after gearing your main
warm plinth
Right
stark sage
@warm plinth but you arent really forced to complete the boring content just as much on an alt that you did on your main, there are immense catch up mechanisms that allow you to skip or speed through boring or easy content
sharp night
keep in mind that this is a social game so you can skip that process by having friends who can help you gear rather than pugging
solo players will always have it harder
strong forum
I recently leveld up a prot paladin and got him geared to 405 in 1 week and neck level 44 within 48hrs of playtime at max level
There's huuuuge catchup mechanics
warm plinth
48 hours of play time is a lot of time
strong forum
Eh
neon tangle
That is indeed a lot of time
stark sage
not compared to the hundreds on your main
strong forum
Not really alot
neon tangle
My main doesn’t have hundreds
stark sage
the thing is, alts gear faster than mains hands down
warm plinth
If you play 3 hours a day (about normal for me), that's 2 weeks of playing.
sturdy sable
It's more the a week of work
sand egret
There are mechanics in the game that address it, but there isn't a personal boosting system and for a specific reason. There is the expectation of experience that comes with gear in WoW. Yes, it can be abused (carries) but generally speaking the concept is that more gear = you've done shit to get said gear. This also comes into play when you bring in social systems. The middle ground is dynamically scaling rewards.
warm plinth
It's frustrating that it takes 2 weeks to play the same content my main is playing.
strong forum
But..that's what your main is for
sharp night
that's not necessarily true either, for people who don't mythic raid then alts can easily surpass mains
strong forum
That's why your main is your main
neon tangle
My only real complaint I have about az armor right now is that starting an alt makes you really feel the forced cadence
stark sage
@warm plinth there needs to be an opportunity cost for having multiple characters, otherwise it really deflates the purpose of having a 'main'
neon tangle
It didn’t feel so bad on my main earlier in the tier
stark sage
it also reinforces fotm meta
neon tangle
When other armor was floating on more slowly too
strong forum
Bro gearing up a new alt is one of the most satisfying things in the game
warm plinth
That's a fair statement Keladan
strong forum
Cuz you lose that sense of progression on your main
sand egret
investment is a real thing in WoW and Keledan is right, this is how you enforce that
strong forum
Being hard stuck at 417-420 ilvl
sand egret
you should have to do at least same amount of shit as your main. Luckily, there are ways to expedite this
but time-gates are also necessary in an MMO so that's just a thing
stark sage
there is a sweet spot for alts, you dont want it to be too hard, like we had in legion
neon tangle
I’d don’t really get why you should feel invested in your “main”
sand egret
honestly I'd argue that right now...it's too easy for Alts
strong forum
If you have friends / guild that will gear you, you can get 400 ilvl in 3 hrs, the most time consuming thing is doing WQs
sand egret
the amount of gear resources is absurd
stark sage
@neon tangle you cant feel accomplished if gearing is too easy
neon tangle
Sorta disagree
warm plinth
It's just a subjective thing. I would not feel that the time I put into my main was wasted. I would be like okay I put in the work on that toon, now the rest should be easier.
sand egret
raids, m+, emissaries, warfronts, WQ, invasion-thingies, world bosses, pvp
warm plinth
But that's just how I personally would feel
stark sage
if gearing alts is too easy, then you would feel hardpressed to create lots of alts in the event a new spec becomes fotm
not necessarily a bad thing
strong forum
I feel hella invested in my main, because its been my main since wotlk
warm plinth
If you're into the FotM, sure. I'm not personally. Which is why I'm not saying they should change the game to suit me personally. As I already said, you have a good point there.
neon tangle
I don’t really know if blizz considers making FOTM harder a priority
Like, in games with near-zero switching costs people still play suboptimal characters
stark sage
they dont afaik, i'm sure blizzard feels the gearing method atm is pretty fair
neon tangle
Like overwatch/MOBAs
sharp night
they did say there are too many sources of gearing atm
warm plinth
Literally the only thing I want changed is the curve of residuum
sharp night
and they want to tone it down
sand egret
it's less FotM and more personal investment to your character
strong forum
Na kela, iirc Blizzard wants to remove TF and reduces sources of loot, but they haven't figured out how
stark sage
well here's hoping they gut TF
strong forum
Fuck TF
sand egret
they won't until they can figure out a away to mimic the benefit it gives
warm plinth
Idk. I'm completely neutral about titanforging.
strong forum
Obv
neon tangle
Like I said earlier my only real complaint about the system is late-tier alt gearing
strong forum
Yea cuz you're not at gear cap I reckon @warm plinth
sand egret
the real question is: does it hurt more than it helps
neon tangle
Because it forces the same cadence as right when the tier drops
warm plinth
Why would I care more about TF if I was gear capped?
neon tangle
Which makes az feel like it gears slower
sharp night
also wrt TR the problem is that accelerating TR acquisition affects more than just alts, and for most people alts can get TR very quickly with social play to get those 415s
strong forum
Cuz it's tedious and unrewarding to keep chasing after TF past 415
sand egret
diminishing returns
warm plinth
I've never felt the need to chase it, so
strong forum
Reclearing over and over and over again only to have some numbnut get 425 from lfr
stark sage
TF creating incentive for geared characters to run old content, and also create excitement over gear that you wouldnt normally care about was a success
but my main complaint with TF is that it blurs the line between difficulties and tiers
meaning guilds that generally clear one difficulty and prog early in the next never feel properly rewarded for their efforts
chilly brook
TF is a cancer
neon tangle
@sharp night I mean I’m running 10+ on my alt and it’s still a looot of weeks for 415s, 3 or so just for 400s
strong forum
TF needs to be changed, it's not good for actual players
sand egret
yeah when the metric for difficulty is the loot it drops, it blurs that line
"for actual players"
LOL
neon tangle
Vs 400 everywhere way quicker
chilly brook
When you have no actual reward given for "difficulty".....
sharp night
it's like 2 months for 3 random 415 pieces if you do only m+ and no other content at +10?
chilly brook
It's been that way for so long in MMOs
stark sage
imo TF matters the least for guilds that get CE easily, and never have to reclear heeroic for gear. you always go from tier to tier near the max reward. its more casual guilds that get fucked over
chilly brook
Harder content=better rewards
neon tangle
Right, 2 months is not much at the start of a tier, forever when it’s a late tier alt
strong forum
Vince, it's like 2 weeks for a random 415, if you raid you can alsmot get 415 every week
sharp night
yeah that's what i'm saying nomeratur
warm plinth
625*3=1875; a 415 is 1725
strong forum
+10 sure
sharp night
we've had people fresh reroll alts and we take them through like 13-14s at 120
neon tangle
That’s what I’m doing
sharp night
if your mains are more geared than ours you could probably do that even up to like 17-18 keys
stark sage
if you can do 16s you get one every 2 weeks
warm plinth
Yeah
strong forum
Tanked a 16 with my 403 pally last week
stark sage
but tbh, by the time you have 2 415s for each slot, you are near bis anyway
neon tangle
Really depends on your social group too
warm plinth
That's why you can't change the game to please everyone. Because if you did make it too easy for alts to get gear, then the folks who do have a guild or group of friends behind them would get shit just obnoxiously fast
stark sage
the residuum reward feels very fair to me, there are still some minor upgrades left in the pool. but i have A or S tier traits on each piece
lavish oracle
Honestly , prot warrior is pretty absurd for carrying keys
warm plinth
Which is bad, as Keladan said
strong forum
Gearing is already obnoxiously easy
warm plinth
It's fair at 10 or higher. I just want it tweaked a bit below 10
lavish oracle
can get close to 30k overall in 14s
sand egret
i think TR is great as well
warm plinth
You literally get 3x as much TR from a +10 as a +9
sharp night
the TR system sub-10 is kinda punishing
sand egret
it's a level of determinism that keeps things real
chilly brook
I mean if you want to have meaningful gearing progression for people who don't have access to higher levels of content bring back the old vendors imo
sharp night
but it's really to incentivize people to complete a 10 every week
if it were a linear scale people would be much less inclined to do it
strong forum
Anything below 10 isn't a key. Period
sand egret
well the 9-10 jump IS a bigger deal
warm plinth
I feel like the gear cap would already incentivize doing a +10 though
sharp night
the difference is only 5 ilvl for a 9 to 10 for non-TR
strong forum
If you can do a 9 you can do a 10
sand egret
and its repsective to the difficulty tier it's supposed to represent
stark sage
@warm plinth but going from 9 to a 10 is like going from normal raiding to heroic raiding, there needs to be a very clear line of difficulty
sharp night
so it's not really important
sand egret
^
neon tangle
Implying reaping makes it harder
warm plinth
Reaping doesn't, but I get the argument when you consider not every season is reaping
sand egret
can we not meme to detract from a good point
strong forum
Ah cba this, ima sleep 🛏 👋
sharp night
also completion of 10s is easier than 9s, since this season you also get a 20% buff if you fail the timer
warm plinth
For example Infested was definitely a big difficulty spike for the average person
sharp night
so if you can complete a 9 you can complete a 10
warm plinth
I know the next one is going to be horrible though. I can feel it in my bones.
Naga themed affix, and I hate nagas with a burning passion
sharp night
if they keep the same system where you get a buff after failing timer, even if the seasonal affix is brutal i think it'll be easier to complete than an 8-9
sand egret
Ghash confirmed Tortollan
stark sage
i think blizz needs to take another look at m+ affixes, the polarizing easy week, hard week bullshit needs to stop. normalize the difficulty so each week is fun to push
warm plinth
Dude, when I heard a tortollan say that the first time, I sent a voice clip to my friend who loves nagas
lavish oracle
Do we know anything about it other than that it's Naga/Azshara themed?
warm plinth
I was like YEAH, TURTLEBOIS ON MY SIDE
sharp night
it will "likely be more ST focused" from what they said in the interview
sharp night
but no clear details
sand egret
so other than ST focused
but whatever that means
could be Explosive style or a big fucking add you gotta kill or whatever
warm plinth
It means we're gonna be killing exploding nagas that spawn from random mobs
😉
have fun with Teeming/Explosive/Explosive!
lavish oracle
Maybe a buff to certain mobs that make them like a miniboss?
sharp night
i'm thinking either that
sand egret
that'll go over well haha
warm plinth
Shadow of Zul after gamma radiation
stark sage
or just permanent bolstering
sharp night
or some sort of charm effect like witches or 3rd boss shrine
increases ally's hp and you have to break them out of it
lavish oracle
lol
sand egret
Unholy BIS class, Army makes each ghoul Bolster
sharp night
demo lock imps
warm plinth
lul. Hunters try to get MCed so they can have hulk pet
sharp night
implosion -> 20 stacks of bolster
warm plinth
Maybe they'll turn a random party member into a spotter from Siege at the beginning of every 10+
And you have to kill the dungeon trash with their aoe
sharp night
that'd be fun, and we all know what blizz thinks of that
sand egret
watch them be fucking threshold mobs
warm plinth
They love requiring the world's most gimmicky mechanic to complete dungeons in time
sand egret
like "requires X damage over Y period or else it can't die"
lavish oracle
Oh yeah, shit. it probably is Bladesong.
warm plinth
I actually posted an idea on the forums back in BC that ended up going live. I was pretty happy with that but I still haven't seen my royalty check.
neon tangle
@sand egret maybe it'll just be that mob from CoS that you occasionally gotta get to 0 HP before it blows up the raid
sand egret
that's what I'm thinkin
sharp night
it'll be awful if it doesn't move
lavish oracle
That actually wouldn't be so bad
sand egret
wanna know the best way to cut out melee
sharp night
gotta keep pulling trash on top of it
sand egret
MULTIDOT
warm plinth
Idk, ST focused just makes me think that it's going to slow down dungeons
neon tangle
@sand egret hey man, sub rogue meta
warm plinth
I hope I'm wrong on that
sharp night
funny thing is assassination does better than sub in that niche now with the right traits
lavish oracle
I hope it's just something that I can pull into other packs like the peacekeepers in motherlode
sand egret
doesn't have to be slower
neon tangle
@warm plinth It wouldn't be too bad with funnel classes, rogue, spriest, etc
sand egret
you can make it reverse Raging
sand egret
need to blow up a certain mob with X dps before shitty Y thing happens.
lavish oracle
What is kiss/curse? some of the affixes are beneficial?
sand egret
yeah
sharp night
sorta yeah
lavish oracle
Eeeh
sand egret
the buff from SotS
sharp night
yeah, like you get a both a good thing and a bad thing from the same affix
warm plinth
Affixes that have a positive and negative side
sharp night
like "lower health you deal more dps"
lavish oracle
Also does anyone know if the manapearl still functions in SotS?
sharp night
so the riskier you play the more benefit you get
lavish oracle
That's a fine line to walk design wise
sand egret
Destiny had a good run with these. Arc [Substitute Magic, here], damage increased. This applied to you AND mobs that dealt that damage
so suddenly Arc mobs were fucking you up
etc.
lavish oracle
That'd just make some dungeons a nightmare some weeks
sharp night
they could even apply to current affixes
lavish oracle
shadow damage in Waycrest, for example
sharp night
raging as a kiss/curse affix would be cool
sand egret
you could make a "ST" affix, by simply making one mob more dangerous, but not take longer to kill
i'm not saying they would do that
but that's an example of a kiss/curse
warm plinth
Like letting an explosive go off buffs your damage by 50% for 10 seconds XD
I’m just thinking of dumb shit now
lavish oracle
The sonic underwater levels but as a dungeon >.>
sharp night
yeah, but then pugs would be like "healer why aren't you healing us through the drowning"
sand egret
i was thinking metroid but yeah
neon tangle
"ITS BECOMING HARD TO BREATHE"
warm plinth
Oh god no
neon tangle
they already got the debuff ready to roll
warm plinth
Only if we can have the same music when sonic is drowning
So the pressure gets fucking real
lusty grotto
i dont understand this ElitismHelper addon that people seem to have nowadays
lavish oracle
It's for narcs
sand egret
the PublicShaming one?
lavish oracle
anyone who uses ElitismHelper is a cop
lavish oracle
A feeling of superiority
sharp night
any damage that's "avoidable"
sand egret
its environmental damage for the most part
neon tangle
@lusty grotto tbh it always seems really low for a tank
sand egret
but certain abilities are also grouped
lusty grotto
i dont fucking understand why would you have an addon that says overall avoidable damage but doesn't say WHICH damage
sand egret
IIRC frontal cones are in there (avoidable ones)
warm plinth
It’s avoidable damage taken that does over 20% of your HP in a single hit
lusty grotto
retarded addon
sharp night
it just assumes people know which damage is avoidable and which isn't
sand egret
did you expect much from an addon called "ElitismHelper"
lusty grotto
i swear to god everyone has it installed nowadays
neon tangle
I mean, it is shit people should be avoiding
which means your healer is healing more
lusty grotto
right
sharp night
it's helping that person be more elitist
lusty grotto
that's what i mean
sand egret
it's the John Madden of addons
lusty grotto
its fucking stupid
sharp night
that's why it's called elitismhelper
warm plinth
According to the description, it’s supposed to call out the damage when it happens
sharp night
it has options for that
warm plinth
BOOM
lusty grotto
oh yeah let me scroll up to see what i called out after the dungeon is done
sand egret
BOOM, right in the debuff!
warm plinth
Also John Madden
lusty grotto
JK I CANT BECAUSE THE CHAT IS CUT
neon tangle
@lusty grotto I think it can give you a per-character recap?
lusty grotto
writes ElitismHelper in diary under stupid fucking addons
sand egret
"I would have never been Elite without ElitismHelper!" - said no one ever.
warm plinth
He knows exactly what he did wrong. Now he just needs to focus up and make sure he doesn’t make any more mistakes.
Again, John Madden
King of Commentary
Nim can I read your diary
neon tangle
I guess I have a hard time getting upset over automating yelling at stupid players
maybe just don't be bad
warm plinth
Elitist alert
lavish oracle
It is the most obnoxious way to do it and totally unhelpful
warm plinth
Well the most obnoxious way would be the people who are like hey moron, don’t stand in that
neon tangle
@sand egret Immediate feedback that the damage you just took was avoidable ?
lavish oracle
It's not immediate
sand egret
so the complete opposite of that
neon tangle
holy moly, if configured right it will tell you for each instance of damage
warm plinth
You can have it report immediately. It says it in the description
neon tangle
as the dungeon is happening
warm plinth
Yeah. Even has a setting so if multiple people have the add on, only one will report
neon tangle
"Rogue took 18481 damage from some_mechanic"
sharp night
the total thing at the end is supposed to just show who was the "worst" at dodging stuff like name-and-shame or something
sand egret
ah, nothing helps better than another player spamming party chat with after-the-fact stuff during a fight
neon tangle
idgaf about the end report, i don't see an issue with in-the-moment feedback about mistakes
(I don't run the addon either way)
stoic pilot
Sometimes when they’re in the moment and you see it
People realize they’re avoidable
And otherwise they wouldn’t of known it
Stuff like that does help, end report is kind of a meme though
sand egret
i mean....it's pretty well documented that public shaming doesn't really improve immediate performance.
not sure how this suddenly changes in WoW
but hey, it's the internet!
neon tangle
also, it's like looking at your dps at the end of the run, individual mistakes in your rotation/choices throughout the dungeon are what you need to correct, but the overall results are also useful to know
stoic pilot
Public shaming in a game where your identity is anonymous
sand egret
you have a username
warm plinth
It’s not shaming though. It’s communication. Why does a call out that you did something wrong automatically get called shaming?
sand egret
so no
stoic pilot
Where people shit talk you anyways
lavish oracle
Like if you want to run it and have it report things to you, yes I can see how that information would be helpful on a personal level
sand egret
the information is good, if you know how to process it
which is also a skill
blasting it at another is just like....word
lavish oracle
Personally, I just log
sharp night
people are extremely sensitive towards being called out for performance
sand egret
ding ding
lavish oracle
If I really need information I upload the log
stoic pilot
Running with constant same group? Sure why not
lavish oracle
most of the time I understand my mistakes in the moment, though
neon tangle
I would consider running it with a group of guildpeople or something
lusty grotto
🤷
sand egret
also (i realize this isn't actually a demerit) from those I have seen use that....it usually comes along with a certain type of player
neon tangle
also prolly turn off the end report
warm plinth
For the sole purpose of shaming them 😂
sand egret
the "git gud" types
neon tangle
I mean, I suck and would probably be that rogue
I just like to see and fix my mistakes
stoic pilot
The “kel’thuzad” types you mean
lusty grotto
its kinda retarded how the druid was using it and he got called out himself lmao
sand egret
pretty sure the last guy who had that was a rogue that didn't know he had Tricks as a skill
and his said
lusty grotto
1.4 Mil damage lmao
neon tangle
@lusty grotto I have almost exclusively seen it blame the person using it the most
warm plinth
Sounds like a 12-year old
sand egret
almost like the ElitismHelper...didn't really help the user!
warm plinth
Whether in body or in mind
neon tangle
@sand egret tools vs. the people who use those tools 😛
sand egret
oh i know
warm plinth
I'm gonna design an addon that does the same thing but in diplomatic whispers to the person 😂
sand egret
details is great, but an asshole could totally link that after every pull
stoic pilot
It would be nice if it tracked damage taken like details
warm plinth
"Hey buddy, I couldn't help but notice you took 175k damage from that mechanic there. Just letting you know it's avoidable, and you should try avoiding it"
"Hope I didn't offend you"
In a second message
lusty grotto
Excuse me sir, but did you know that you got knocked the fuck out by the move "bitchslap". You took 1407k damage from it. Have fun!
stoic pilot
Then get “you’ve sent too many whispers” error after one big pull
warm plinth
😂
spice ferry
inb4 whispers yourself telling you your shit
warm plinth
😂
I'll configure it so that when it whispers the person running the addon, it's just straight savage.
"Great job not avoiding that one, fuckstick"
neon tangle
oooo this works for raids
stoic pilot
“Hey idiot, I know you just pulled the entirety of raals hallway and his trash in his room but you need to dodge the Retch even though you can’t see it”
warm plinth
"How did you not see that Shadow Smash half buried in the hillside? Moron."
warm plinth
Can you imagine Reaping in Lower Kara in Maiden's hallway? 😂
Fucking hidden under the rugs
stoic pilot
We did such a big pull we got 3 reaps in one pull in freehold
And we had 2 spriests
Looked like Harry Potter with the spirits flying out
warm plinth
But did you die?
stoic pilot
Like the god damn dementors breaking free
warm plinth
I just re-read that series
neon tangle
i member the last smash I got hit by
sick sentinel
Dodge it
warm plinth
I want to be able to SR shadow smash
neon tangle
its when I accidentally hit grongs instead of deaths advance
warm plinth
And have it hit everything
warm plinth
lol
stoic pilot
I tried doing reap into first boss in underrot and that happened
stoic pilot
“Reflect next bolt” instantly dies
warm plinth
😂
sand egret
maybe you just need ElitismHelper so you can git gud
warm plinth
^
lusty grotto
nod
warm plinth
It says Helper in the name; it must be useful.
sand egret
I used ElitismHelper and shot up to 4.5k io
and saved 15% or more on my car insurance
I don't even have a car.
It's that good.
warm plinth
Without having to talk to a gecko?
warm plinth
Jesus.
neon tangle
I expect that if it had a different name it would be less loathed
also maybe more useful as a details plugin or something
stoic pilot
Would be really nice to see specific damage intake from mobs that is avoidable
sick sentinel
If you really want to dig though details you can
stoic pilot
Yeah it’s just if it was all avoidable damage it’d be easier to scan through
sand egret
as a paladin, with Bubble off cooldown...wouldn't everything be technically "avoidable"
stoic pilot
versus going through all damage intake individually
warm plinth
I think it's just shit that's avoidable via movement
sand egret
to see if you could have avoided it
warm plinth
It does ignore shit that you absorbed or immuned though
sand egret
then there's also the bigger question, could you have avoided doing that key at all
thereby EVERYTHING was avoidable
neon tangle
I think it’s probably fine to just only track stuff that’s avoidable without immunities
stoic pilot
Charged claw shudders
warm plinth
I'm not used to playing ranged toons, so when I'm playing a ranged character and something like Charged Claw or that thing that 3rd boss shoots out happens, I get so lost
stoic pilot
Oh I just meant the peacekeepers early on
warm plinth
Oh
stoic pilot
That do a charged claw move that literally deletes you if they’re raging and melee you
warm plinth
I'm usually out of range for that one 😂
stoic pilot
There’s one pull I don’t have much room to kite on
warm plinth
I was thinking of the thing the 1st boss does
stoic pilot
And it gives me anxiety every time
warm plinth
I meant on my ranged toons; I haven't tanked a ML yet
And I'm always behind stuff on my DH so it's not a problem
wicked meteor
Which trinket should i use 400 Vial Blood or 395 Rezan?
outer dew
@sand egret I use elitist helper to run into more mechanical
My numbers gotta be bigger than everyone else or I'm not big dick
proud ermine
Rezan's even at lower ilvl would give you overall more dps. @wicked meteor . I'd look at using Vial if there were points I needed more damage/Surv IE) Jaina on icewall etc
let me double check sims for you tho
abstract geyser
slim cosmos
@stoic pilot the peacekeepers' charged claw is reflectable
warm plinth
You're reflectable
slim cosmos
what if this entire time I haven't been reflecting spells, but reflecting myself
warm plinth
exotic spoke
warm plinth
The first one.
undone sun
haHAA
warm plinth
It counts if your goal is to make a set of gear you never have to repair.
warm plinth
Good morning Kaege
honest canopy
Rip
Is there any addon or WA that shows me the last used ability
Like the combatlog but just the icon of the ability
I see some streamers have something simmilar
undone sun
Details! Streamer mode has that
Should just be in details already, no additional install iirc
bronze moon
Shield blocking does nothing on rixxa except +slam damage, is that right?
fathom hollow
hey nerds
warm plinth
fathom hollow
is this dogshit trinket from uunat good for prot
warm plinth
The healing/damage one?
fathom hollow
yea
warm plinth
It's pretty good, if you need it.
The damage isn't spectacular but it heals a shitload
fathom hollow
o so its for survivability
warm plinth
Yeah, primarily
fathom hollow
momma didn't raise no bitch
warm plinth
😂
warm plinth
Her auto-attack is a fire spell called Searing Reagent rather than a melee.
Eh, if you have the extra rage to spend on it, no reason not to if it means she dies faster.
bronze moon
rgr, thank you.
cold flame
how do you make underrot's first boss go onto you?
i usually kick first and reflect second
first boss's add cast**
valid sundial
Pray...
warm plinth
Seems like the smart thing would be to go in ahead of everyone else so that you know the first cast will be on you, reflect the first one, then kick the second.
At least that would guarantee a reflect early on
cold flame
oh i meant the add
warm plinth
Oh, I got you. Yeah you basically would just have to get lucky; I don't think there's a way to force it. Did you try taunting it between casts?
Sometimes that'll make mobs that normally random target cast on you
Not sure it works on that though
warm plinth
Oh
sick sentinel
@cold flame I do a me-melee-melee interrupt rotation on the boss and we have our ranged interrupt first cast on add I SR second cast
honest canopy
Need to kill Talco Normal for the sill rank 3 couldron recepie 😦
sick sentinel
Talco
warm plinth
Sellout
honest canopy
Totally
oblique garnet
Needs slutmog
warm plinth
Oh dear.
oblique garnet
It increases damage
warm plinth
I don't think it does
mortal brook
just like jumping is a threat increase
warm plinth
Thyme's new pfp is making me uncomfortable
undone sun
🤣
mortal brook
and spazzing with left right strafe spam gives arena rating
undone sun
was based on my old one that i changed to, to get the emote i previously had here
man that image was bigger than eexpected
undone sun
🤣
warm plinth
To be fair though, I posted it on mobile so it wouldn't have worked anyway.
I need to update my profile picture. I'm way hotter now.
😏
undone sun
lol well at least you have confidence
warm plinth
Maybe I'll post one with my irl slutmog
mortal brook
are you the starbucks cup?
warm plinth
Yes, yes I am.
mortal brook
that shit is way hot
fathom hollow
hey nerds
how much damage overall do you do in like a 15
this week
say like a normal mob count dungeon like freehold/underrot
warm plinth
cough
brave mauve
0
oblique garnet
@fathom hollow 35-40k
trim bay
