Not caring about lore most of the time?
#protection
exotic spoke
daring marlin
she hasn't changed one bit
chilly brook
Pure evil@no
inland mesa
morally grey, like the english
chilly brook
Less than moral? Yes
lime mantle
Undead by default are p. Evil.
exotic spoke
Eh, she had purpose in legion imo
chilly brook
Undead aren’t default evil Wadu hek
exotic spoke
She had a goal. Trying to save her people
inland mesa
the real question is
exotic spoke
Wadu... is that you?
wary gyro
When is it going to be the taurens chance to lead the horde
inland mesa
why hasn't sylvannas raised all the dead people in zulduzar after the BoD raid....they're just laying there
lime mantle
Someone is ought to refresh himself on wow lore.
Undead are by default p. Far gone into being evil with absurd ease.
daring marlin
Anyone who says she hasn't been pure evil since vanilla hasn't quested as Forsaken. lol.
chilly brook
@lime mantle I’d agree if you said the scourge
But the forsaken aren’t default evil my guy
lime mantle
Nah most people want to@stick in nathanos’ wormy sloppy seconds.
sick sentinel
In the end, we all just want to fuck a big tity corpse but we can't admit we are necrophiliacs
chilly brook
^hes not wrong you know
exotic spoke
Rofl
lime mantle
@chilly brook wow undead lend themselves to being evil on the basis of being in a nearly permanent state of suffering and dread, this is explained multiple times.
I corrected myself on the second message as it wasn’t clear.
Denote this stage of being shit is extra expanded on DKs
Hence why it’s absurdly wtf that Sylvannas goes >Muh people must survive!!! On cata and sets up to raise dead people’s
lusty grotto
they aren't evil
chilly brook
They aren’t evil....
wary gyro
@lime mantle define evil because the idea of evil is an inherently subjective thing
lusty grotto
well she is another thing
exotic spoke
Also, they have to be ruthless because literally everyone is out to destroy them. Their loved ones no longer care about them at best - and usually despise them
chilly brook
^
split apex
is 425 bandage from KR trinket worth using as prot?
chilly brook
It’s explained in several places
split apex
thanks @daring marlin was in my weekly today xd
exotic spoke
Feels very much like an “ends justify the means” character to me. She wants to save her people and fuck the rest of the world - they don’t matter but her people do
chilly brook
What about the part where she gives them the choice to accept undeath or return to the grave in cata?
lusty grotto
look here's what blizzard did wrong
wary gyro
She wants her race to not just dwindle and die put which I can understand as a motivation
daring marlin
You know what I wanted forever? for Tyrion to march into Lordaeron and wipe them all out. Shame they tossed him in the trash like a bitch in Legion.
womp womp woooooooooomp
chilly brook
Her cata self was very much in character
lusty grotto
yes @wary gyro but some undead do want to die again
chilly brook
It wasn’t written poorly
lusty grotto
that's explained in the novel
lime mantle
@lusty grotto @chilly brook I didn’t say (read the ducking message) that I said they can easily go into do evil.
But this discussion is fucking meaningless because
- You are blinded by your ragging erection for a corpse
- Wow lore is prone to random retcons
wary gyro
Can we all at least agree that genn is the worst
chilly brook
Sylvanas has nothing to do really with whether or not I think the undead are evil or not
daring marlin
opulence trinket is probably the best
exotic spoke
^
daring marlin
2gud
lime mantle
A lot of undead would like to be given an actual rest because all undead in wow are always in a state of suffering.
That is why it’s very what the fuck that the forsaken go around making NEW forsaken.
daring marlin
the amount absorbed over a fight is ludicrous
lime mantle
Because “Muh people must survive!”
lusty grotto
anyway, here's what blizzard did wrong, i think they wanted to go with a scenario where there are no more big bads suddenly and therefore invasion and land expansion is what's next. Sort of (and this might be a bad example) like what happened after WW2, where nazis were beaten but then we launched a cold war vs the soviets. We were fighting against nazis, but then that ended...
chilly brook
They don’t have to take the undeath they can choose to return to the grave
Until BFA when Sylvanas went full Lich Queen
lusty grotto
it's cause Sylvanas wasn't expanded much in that regard before BFA
wary gyro
I miss having good leaders as horde
sick sentinel
I love how Sal hasn't come in yet like
lime mantle
P. Sure they don’t get asked to be risen to start with my dude.
sick sentinel
Ayo my guys STFU
brisk ferry
opened chest, 410 weapon, mythic BoD first boss dropped my 415 shield, was a solid day
lusty grotto
nice gz Brostrodamus
chilly brook
How you gonna ask a corpse that hasn’t been resurrected if it wants a second chance at life? Lmao
brisk ferry
havent touched any raid bosses other than that too much, but regretfully forgot my reroll token to try and get chest
lusty grotto
i have a theory that blizzard is slowly killing RTS characters or shoving them off for new ones
lime mantle
I don’t know
Oh wait
I do
Because my I played dk quest line in legion. You ask the spirit.
chilly brook
I played my DK quest line in legion as well but I think you’re missing the point 🙃
lusty grotto
i mean who's left of RTS games? Khadgar is off, so is his group sans Alleria, Illidan is off, Malfurion and Tyrande are just leaders and prone to being killed off as is Sylvanas... the whole Proudmoore thing is being expanded upon now. Arthas, the Burning Legion and Sargeras are dead. Etc etc.
wary gyro
Thralls still alive just off living on dreanot
lusty grotto
Daddy thrall is off to who knows where
daring marlin
man
wary gyro
Cairn got killed off
daring marlin
sargeras will be back
wise mirage
like does it not go higher
lusty grotto
if sargeras is back, so will illidan
daring marlin
argus was merely a setback...
solemn magnet
For the Engineering Helm which traits should I go ?
lusty grotto
the big bads right now are N'zoth and the void
lusty grotto
but they wanted to slow that down by making horde vs alliance conflict
after the old gods and the void lords are done
what else is there?
exotic spoke
More old gods must be defeated
daring marlin
red vs blue is boring
exotic spoke
We haven’t killed an old god.
wary gyro
Nzoth is likely going to have some appearance in the azshara raid or the next one
lusty grotto
just their leaders the void lords
exotic spoke
No, they weren’t killed afaik. Just contained again
lusty grotto
i mean
modern brook
lusty grotto
i understand that
modern brook
this convo is dumb
wary gyro
I mean yogg and Cthun weren't really killed just driven back into containment
lusty grotto
you're looking too much into the word "dead"
modern brook
Wow lore ina nut shell is the alliance being inept and the horde stepping in to get shit done
lusty grotto
you got what i was saying
daring marlin
🐒 @modern brook
wary gyro
Ghuun is the closest we've come to killing one
lusty grotto
well technically g'huun isn't a "real" old god
he was just a titan experiment that resulted in one
wary gyro
Yeah that's what I meant by closest
exotic spoke
I dislike hiw as alliance I had no clue about some of the shit horde did to us and I’m sure it’s the same vice versus
lusty grotto
the void lords are the ones responsible for the 4 old gods
wary gyro
Even ysaraj still has some degree of life left
lusty grotto
Cthun, yogg, nzoth and ysaarg or whatever
chilly brook
@modern brook has the right idea
daring marlin
I agree.
The Alliance should have dismantled the Horde at the end of Siege.
The Horde died when they ousted Garrosh.
lusty grotto
ysaarj was supposed to be the most powerful one :p
chilly brook
Lul
modern brook
@daring marlin untrue
chilly brook
Garrosh did nothing wrong amirite?
modern brook
they just chose not to have the best warcheif since thrall do anything
daring marlin
That's right. Garrosh was a victim of poopoo writing.
wary gyro
Ysaraj was also destroyed directly by norganon
modern brook
I'm torn nim
on the one hand
make horde orc again
on the other
saurfang bitches out
lusty grotto
im ok with tauren warchief
wary gyro
Make baine warchief
lusty grotto
yeah baine would be good
modern brook
LOL Baine doing sometihng
lusty grotto
as long as he's not cannon fodder
i mean he did have some moments in the cinematic/scenarios
modern brook
baine's entire role as a character is to act as a constant foil to what we lost in cairne
wary gyro
Cairn got fucked hard by the writers
chilly brook
@daring marlin I’m afraid Sylvanas is getting the garrosh treatment
lusty grotto
you know what would be super dope
if they brought back whats his name the fucking black dragon
modern brook
Sylvanas wont be redeemed
lusty grotto
and made him warchief
daring marlin
that thot doesn't deserve a raid
modern brook
quote me on that
chilly brook
She always did questionable shit but never on this scale
modern brook
refer to this when it spoiled
exotic spoke
Killing dragons got old
exotic spoke
Watch out for the breath, the tail swipe, and wing buffet
lusty grotto
what a wasted character though
chilly brook
@modern brook my money is on her dying at the end of this xpac or in the beginning of next
wary gyro
@chilly brook I think it's more likely she's going to sacrifice herself as a "redemption" then go the full garrosh route with how they've been setting it up
lusty grotto
i dont know
exotic spoke
Goblin for warchief
lusty grotto
yeah
ieatpuppies i agree
im still confused as to why there haven't been any more garrosh or voljin quests
chilly brook
Sacrificing herself to avoid hell
modern brook
Sylvanas wont be redeemed
wary gyro
Voljin got fucked hard
chilly brook
Because horde lore is a joke to these writers rn
wary gyro
He deserved better than the death he got
lusty grotto
i do hope voljin becomes a loa
modern brook
Sylvanas's whole arc is going to be but i was doing what i thought was right -> eternal suffering ->raid boss in future expac
chilly brook
Blue is good
lusty grotto
loa of all trolls
chilly brook
Voljin was so underutilized 😑
lusty grotto
im just jelly cause i loved varian and he got an awesome death
modern brook
Imagine having guns and still losing wars to guys who can barely put to gether hovels
wary gyro
He went out in the biggest let down when you consider how hard he was supposed to kill lorewise
daring marlin
Varian was pretty epic
exotic spoke
Obviously they pull the stupidest trope ever “it was all an illusion of what could have happened....”
daring marlin
Love that guy
lusty grotto
(also varian was technically my king since i became horde only after WoD)
modern brook
varian is a big nerd
chilly brook
Varian was underutilized as well
wary gyro
Voljin a guy who's supposed to be basically unkillable died to a random ass demon
exotic spoke
He sacrificed himself to save others
lusty grotto
well he was right though
daring marlin
Glad they rorschach’d him instead of saurfang junioring him
exotic spoke
Willingly
modern brook
what
modern brook
no the sacrificing himself to save other thing
VOljin got shanked and died to poison ticks
modern brook
Varian is a fucking retard
lusty grotto
yeah voljin was sigh
wary gyro
Voljin just got shafted by the writers
daring marlin
Voljin is a who cares
exotic spoke
He didn’t see a way of saving the ship and everyone on it other then that.
wary gyro
He deserved way better than he got
lusty grotto
big fucking guns can't melt plot armor
exotic spoke
You’re seriously going to fire a cannon (big fucking gun) at something that close?
exotic spoke
Even if he didn’t have plot armor that’s a stupid thing to do lol
daring marlin
rogue*
sick sentinel
Shut up
modern brook
and say
steel bronze
How do you guys deal with Reaping in High Keys in Instances like Waycrest?
I have no room to kite and die to the dot very often
modern brook
"yeah my biceps are probably more efficent seige engines"
lusty grotto
have healers dispell you like they should?
wary gyro
I mean have you seen his biceps?
lusty grotto
bull im not going to allow this shit talking of varian, im gonna have to take your badge
varian was a warrior bro
modern brook
Yeah thats my point dude
exotic spoke
So can we agree it’s the healers fault?
lusty grotto
factions do not separate us
modern brook
dont sit here and be like "oh man he was so nobel what a sacrifice"
lusty grotto
yes its always the healers fault
wary gyro
Yeah fucking healers couldn't keep varian up
lusty grotto
they do fucking nothing in cutscenes
modern brook
the fucking monkey legit thought his arms were stronger than an air ship
ITs the most warrior way to go out
but it doesnt make you not a retard
lusty grotto
"EXCUSE ME SIR, CAN YOU HEAL VOLJIN AND THEN VARIAN THANKS"
wary gyro
Why cant they just bres him
modern brook
your light faaaaaaades profit
lusty grotto
tirion fails at bubling
modern brook
not so fast
lusty grotto
i mean that was fucked
wary gyro
Yeah velen is a useless healer
placid coyote
Hey i got a question for M+, 400ilvl BoM+DC shoulders or 415 IF+CR shoulders (i can get DC on chest)
exotic spoke
I mean seriously
modern brook
ILVL
exotic spoke
Bolvar was a baller though
lusty grotto
for M+ go BoM
modern brook
@placid coyote ilvl
exotic spoke
He didn’t let death stop him
lusty grotto
errr
modern brook
Bom isnt worth Stam str and Armor loss
chilly brook
@daring marlin And really it’s more like I miss when the game had some slightly higher than lazy writing and neither side was good
placid coyote
kk cheers
wary gyro
Bolvar for warchief
chilly brook
^
wary gyro
Yeah
exotic spoke
So, obviously we will have to go back and kill him
lusty grotto
sigh
chilly brook
No
exotic spoke
That’s one thing they can do again and again
exotic spoke
Yeah. So every couple expacs we have to kill the LK as the crown takes its toll on their will
sick sentinel
But can bolvar tell us why kids love the cinnamon swirl taste of these Kellogg's Frosted shits
wary gyro
He hasn't really done much as lich king atm which is probably for the best
chilly brook
He was badass in the DK quests in legion
lusty grotto
but they are limited to DK's quests
wary gyro
Yeah
sick sentinel
A Back to the Future u might
wary gyro
And even then he takes a fairly passive role in the actions
exotic spoke
But if they make it so that the crown is slowly driving him - more insane than just being burnt to a crisp - it could work
chilly brook
Yes but he’s also very much you do this or I do
chilly brook
And it’s very clear you don’t want him doing it
lusty grotto
i mean new villains
wary gyro
I would rather not just have a rehash of the lich king as an expansion
exotic spoke
But we can never talk about what happened in ICC
chilly brook
@lusty grotto agreed
lusty grotto
the thing is that
nothing will ever compare to Burning Legion and Void lords in terms of scope
wary gyro
It's something they setup so they could fall back on it
chilly brook
I don’t think scope of it really matters tbh
final mist
🤔
wary gyro
The threat doesnt always need to be universe threatening to be interesting
sick sentinel
Fucking called it
exotic spoke
I’m just saying, being able to use arp as a prot warrior back in wotlk was amazing
I wish we could get it now
wary gyro
Let me shoot a gun again cowards
exotic spoke
You’re right - that’s why you max it ou t and pretend they don’t have armor
Then they have no armor to penetrate
sick sentinel
Remember when agil gave armor
exotic spoke
And 20 agi was 1 % crit?
wary gyro
Yeah and crit
lusty grotto
yes i remember being guardian on my druid
chilly brook
You mean back when stats were more than just “this increases damage but not as much as this or that”
lusty grotto
i remember being feral tank too before it was split
wary gyro
Back when you realistically could hit 100% crit chance
sick sentinel
Why can't we have cOMpLeX stats
exotic spoke
Expertise :p
wary gyro
Expertise was worse
lusty grotto
fucking expertise
chilly brook
Hit chance was actually a good thing to have imo
sick sentinel
Hey man
exotic spoke
Edgemasters handfuards being one of the best end game dps....
wary gyro
Hit chance as a stat just amounted to you have to reserve x amount of your stats for this or be bad
It didn't really add anything
sick sentinel
I mean in reality it was a low %
exotic spoke
If you add hit chance back, give me reforging too
chilly brook
Imo it did
sick sentinel
Like 3-5% if u weren't a nelf
chilly brook
And I’d be more than happy to get reforging back
wary gyro
It was about 8% for single weapons and higher for dual wielding
chilly brook
Just like we all hate going and simming ourselves @sick sentinel 🙄
exotic spoke
I’m just saying if they make hit a thing - they need to have reforging too
wary gyro
I miss pvp vendors
sick sentinel
I miss a lot but apparently I'm a fucking knuckle dragging troglodyte that can't use google
solemn magnet
Is the Engineering helm worth it? Also what traits would you take
chilly brook
Lol
wary gyro
I miss having actual talent trees
exotic spoke
What iteration ieatpuppies
Conversely griff, I hated having to get raid gear to pvp
hybrid zealot
hey guys what would you prefer Bloodsport or Blood Rite? :x
wary gyro
Original or cata both were better than what we have now imo
chilly brook
Bloodsport
crimson comet
Bloodsport
chilly brook
Prot specific traits>generic
hybrid zealot
thx
exotic spoke
Yeah, I’d like some trees with actual options
wary gyro
It also just made leveling feel better
exotic spoke
I hated vanilla leveling
sick sentinel
I wish we had the legion talent tree back
It was like a updated version of the old-school tree
wary gyro
I wish it was still legion
sick sentinel
Which was fucking A+
chilly brook
I wish that RIFT hadn’t taken a dive
wary gyro
Legion felt much better planned out than bfa
chilly brook
Probably because it was
sick sentinel
Probably because it has to be
strong forum
Tradewinds for more juicy mastery, or IF? 🤔
oblique garnet
If
strong forum
m+ ofc
chilly brook
IF
wary gyro
Prot specific over generic almost always
strong forum
i know that
sick sentinel
Boy if u don't go IF
chilly brook
I’m legit triple stacked IF rn
sick sentinel
In a m+ it's going to be more
sick sentinel
Read
lucid bough
steep lily
You only care about dps or mitigation as well?
strong forum
well im talking dps
only care about dps
í have 420 shield
block isnt gonna do all that much
exotic spoke
The less damage you take the longer your healer can dps
strong forum
youre talking to me as if i wouldnt know what im doing :p
steep lily
Mastery is kinda nice since youre already capped on crit block damage value in m+
lusty grotto
it's not like being defensive allows you to double pull or triple
especially in fort weeks
exotic spoke
I’m not saying you don’t man. I’m just putting it out as a reminder. I’d go IF.
daring marlin
I mean it reflects a good amount of damage back too.
sick sentinel
Trade winds won't help u over the course of a m+ like IF will
sick sentinel
If ur going for boms tradewinds won't help much
daring marlin
SHAME I HAVE DOUBLE SKYSCORCHER WOMP WOMP
strong forum
it was hard road guilford, its my 3rd piece of shoulders i bought
daring marlin
I've bought helm and 2x shoulders so far
oblique garnet
Tradewinds sims 50 dps higher than if
daring marlin
got lucky on helm and shoulders first time I guess
strong forum
3x shoulders and 1x chest
for me
ye people value BoM a fuckton
so i reckon tradewinds is insane aswell
cuz its literally 1k mastery
over BoM with 599
daring marlin
BoM is on-demand though
sick sentinel
On demand is better than proc chance
oblique garnet
Basically
strong forum
im talking bout fucking bom
exotic spoke
He’s saying BoM overlapping with trade winds
sick sentinel
The chances u get both is not as high ur hoping
strong forum
idk never had tradewinds
but if its same proc rate as trinkets
its like 30% uptime
sounds good to me
sick sentinel
They kinda have for certain classes
floral tinsel
Tradewinds is an interesting option for pure dps, it also sims higher than IF does... But is it worth giving up the extra block?
oblique garnet
Not really
floral tinsel
And it's not like IF doesn't do damage
strong forum
i have 1x IF regardless
oblique garnet
Even if you have 420 shield
strong forum
stacking block doesnt scale well
lusty grotto
says who
strong forum
otherwise you could reach insane block value with BfI which you dont
lusty grotto
wheres your proof? wheres the math
oblique garnet
?????
floral tinsel
Yeah, but 3% from say 50 to 53% is the same as a 6% damage reduction
exotic spoke
But you still gained a linear amount of time to live if I recall correctly
lusty grotto
your math is wrong
strong forum
🤔
floral tinsel
Think of it this way.. If you gained 1% more blocked from 98% to 99% you would double your DR
As far as I can tell DR scales linearly with block, but the amount blocked has diminishing returns witch is what you see in game.
steep lily
You also reach a bit of a soft cap at 42.5%, since crit block is capped at 85%. Think pretty much everyone is hitting that in m+ now
strong forum
im sitting at 53%
lusty grotto
thats not a cap at all
strong forum
juicy
steep lily
No, but it decreases the value of getting additional block value past 42.5
lusty grotto
you're wrong
you're not always crit blocking
there's a very specific time where crit blocking chance becomes better and thats via Avatar with BoM
steep lily
Whether or not thats worth giving up IF for more mastery, in terms of overall mitigation probably not
floral tinsel
But calling it a softcap is kinda vierd, because you get 42,5% from literally equipping a blue shield that drops from a WQ
exotic spoke
How the fuck are you getting that much haste and mastery
supple path
They're calling it a softcap because at that cap its value reduces, but is still worth something - that's literally what a softcap is.
exotic spoke
Fair
supple path
And you obviously get more value from block up to the point that it's still feeding you 2x returns on crit block vs 0 returns
steep lily
Yeah, only calling it a soft cap in the sense that getting block value past 42.5% has less of an averaged effect than pushing it up to 42.5
crimson comet
So with the Diamond-Laced Refracting Prism. Wowhead shows some crazy equation. With like 500 vers it would be like 3 million to 22million absorb?
lusty grotto
it increases over time xyran
haste affects it
but who cares about versatility though
strong forum
hehe
steep lily
Im curious whether the scheming trait or other haste/mastery traits fair better than that, guess its not really brought up on the prot discord
crimson comet
But that would make us invincible to everything with that kind of absorb
lusty grotto
its brought up all the fucking time
floral tinsel
@supple path yeah, I know what it means and why.. It's just vierd to call it that because you are above the cap as long as you have a shield equipped.. And if you don't.. Why are you playing prot?
chilly brook
@steep lily crit block cap has nothing to do with any sort of block cap soft or hard
supple path
Because it wasn't the case with the shields available at release of expansion
Though man I forget what ilvl shield it takes to get to 42.5% blocks
steep lily
Im not sure, how do you define a soft cap then
exotic spoke
415 censuras
lusty grotto
i did the math on monday
supple path
So there you go agent - if your shield is lower than ilvl 415 those traits have more value.
floral tinsel
Lol what.. Not 415
chilly brook
A soft cap would be the point at which you’ve hit a break point and you no longer need to get more stats into that value
supple path
That's not what a soft cap is.
chilly brook
Which 42.5% isn’t
lusty grotto
6340 / (6340 + K value)
supple path
The point where you no longer want more of the stat is the HARD cap
steel mauve
415 ilvl shield gets you 42.8% blocked dmg
lusty grotto
6340 / (6340 + 8467.2)
exotic spoke
That’s close enough to the 42.5 censures was asking about
chilly brook
No @supple path a hard cap is where the point of diminishing returns makes it not worth stacking more of that stat
exotic spoke
So that’s why I said 415
supple path
You're literally using these terms in the wrong way.
wary gyro
No hard cap is where a stat has 0 value for you if you add more not you dont want more of it, it literally does nothing
supple path
Soft cap = reduction in value past this point. Hard cap = no value.
supple path
Crit block caps at 85% and is twice normal block.
chilly brook
Yes crit block
supple path
Thus - soft cap on block at 42.5 because crit blocks stop improving
steep lily
Okay, yeah i just meant the 42.5 as more of a value where you start getting less of an improvement to overall damage mitigated since crit block is no longer going up, not that you wouldnt want to keep increasing that stat
chilly brook
That’s asinine
supple path
You just don't like the term soft cap
brave mauve
You guys are fucking unreal.
supple path
It could be a 1% reduction in value and still be true
chilly brook
No you’re equating crit block to block
floral tinsel
Wait... So is IF and BFI that strong.. I have like 54% blocked amount with a 420 shield...
chilly brook
Which they interact
wary gyro
Cap meand you dont want to stack past this point soft cap is where you hit q breakpoint that makes furthervstacking undesirable hard is where the stat ceases to have value at all
supple path
Because it's literally derived from block
inland mesa
Can I have your 420 shield?
chilly brook
But just because you hit the crit block cap doesn’t mean that you suddenly no longer focus on extra block stat
old zephyr
The more Block value you get the better it is so even critblock isn't getting any better It's still good
lusty grotto
why wouldn't you want to keep stacking Block value past that just because of crit blocks?
supple path
Sure. There are many, many cases of soft caps you exceed.
Doesn't mean they don't exist.
All it really means in practice is "value the block traits higher if your shield is < 415 ilvl"
steep lily
You might not want to stack it if other traits become better at that point, but i dont think that would be the case
wary gyro
You seem to be the one with a misunderstanding of what softcap is here
brave mauve
Unbelievable.
supple path
As opposed to the person who gave a dictionary definition of conflating hard and soft cap?
chilly brook
There literally is no point in which you’d stop going for block realistically
steel mauve
It would be true if you crit blocked 100% of the time, but since crit blocking is around 1/4 of that depending on mastery block value is still highly beneficial over 42.5%
chilly brook
^^^^
supple path
Why yes. It's almost like after that point it still has value, just less value.
inland mesa
I too like to argue on the internets
supple path
I wonder what term you could call that.
chilly brook
So using the whole crit block cap thing is a non issue
brave mauve
Topic change. Which am I taking.
steel mauve
Not as much less value as being implied
supple path
You're reading an implication that was never made.
oblique garnet
Thats kinda obvious
floral tinsel
Socket!
wary gyro
Socketed 100%
rich beacon
I really need to upgrade my 395 shield :/
brave mauve
Fair enough. I miss Avoidance being a good stat.
chilly brook
You said it yourself
supple path
The ol' days of all the tankbusters counting as AE
steel mauve
Same ilvl with haste would win regardless of socket...
chilly brook
If it’s a “cap” then you don’t desire to continue to get the stat. Which isn’t how block works
supple path
I'm not going to argue about what words mean anymore.
brave mauve
Yes it was lmao
chilly brook
Words mean things
floral tinsel
Soft cap = reduction in value past this point. Hard cap = no value.
lusty grotto
you want a real avoidance set try farming unhittable set for heroic anub in Wrath
inland mesa
Let's settle this through interpretative dance
steep lily
I think its much more significant in m+ when uptime on avatar is high and you often have 70% + crit block due to BoM
floral tinsel
Now I feel like I started this argument :(
oblique garnet
Stop arguing bois
inland mesa
It's all you and your 420 shields fault
floral tinsel
Rofl
chilly brook
@floral tinsel the problem is there isn’t any actual reduction in value for block as a stat even when you hit crit block cap because you don’t crit block 100% of the time
floral tinsel
Well yeah, it's not a hard cap
inland mesa
25% of the time it works 100% of the time and I hit hard cap
floral tinsel
It's a very very soft cap 😂
chilly brook
@steep lily in reality you have a high uptime on avatar in raid as well
old zephyr
You gain less from crit Block but more from regular Block
inland mesa
😂
chilly brook
^
old zephyr
Simple very exagerated exemple
floral tinsel
😂 😂 😂 
steep lily
Yeah, not so many people are hitting crit block cap in mythic raid tho
Not sure what value you need for that right now actually
lusty grotto
of course not the value is like 11k
inland mesa
If you get a damn shield, but I dont live that life
old zephyr
Going from 0 to 10% Block value reduce blocked Damage by 10 and critblocked by 20
lusty grotto
M0/M+: 8467.2 (x1.344)
BfD/Shrine LFR: 8467.2 (x1.344)
BfD/Shrine Normal: 9311.4 (x1.478)
BfD/Shrine Heroic: 10275.3 (x1.631)
BfD/Shrine Mythic: 11390.4 (x1.808)```OHH.. @steep lily that's a very good point.. In your equation @lusty grotto what changes the k-value?
inland mesa
Does shrine drop a shield?
floral tinsel
Oh 😆
old zephyr
Going from 50 to 60 reduce blocked by 20 and critblocked by 0%
floral tinsel
You just dropped the table.. Thanx
lusty grotto
i just posted k values
old zephyr
So unless you7haveore than 50 % overall critblocked you got more from those 10 % Block
lusty grotto
what
old zephyr
Nah I fucked up something
floral tinsel
Would be cool if someone would be autistic enough to include what ilvl shield reaches the softcap for different k
lusty grotto
no i legit dont understand what youre saying lol
old zephyr
Forgot critblock First half
exotic spoke
Agent, it’s really easy to figure out
chilly brook
What he’s saying I think is that as your block stat gets higher the value for block as a stat gets better for normal blocks?
exotic spoke
But it depends on your Azerite level and traits.
old zephyr
Yes
floral tinsel
@exotic spoke yeah it is.. Im just on my phone on a train
exotic spoke
Bv / (bv+ k) where BV =2.5*armor of shield
And then the bv Of traits depends on the Ilvl, so you’d have to assume those. I have 415s so BfI is 441 and IF is 529.
floral tinsel
What's the relationship between armor and ilvl of shield?
old zephyr
So even if the value for critblock increase there is very little chance for 42,5 to be whatever softcap and it Will dépend on mastery
exotic spoke
I only know that a 400 has 5692, 415 has 6340, and 425 has 6822.5 if I remember correctly
chilly brook
There would be value to that idea if we had crazy mastery levels and 100% uptime on avatar
floral tinsel
Also.. Why is the m+ and LFR k-value the same?? O.o
chilly brook
However those crazy mastery levels are confined to avatar windows which while we have a lot of avatar it’s still not a majority of the fight or your blocks
old zephyr
There still may be one but we need more math than just eh It's half Block cap
exotic spoke
Because m+ is also for all m+
floral tinsel
Doesn't that mean that for m+ your block is worth more as you get more block % per block?
chilly brook
Because we needed help we were the worst tanks in 8.0 remember @floral tinsel 🙃😜
exotic spoke
It would be really shitty for the damage of the mobs to scale logarithmically and for you to also take more damage because of the equation
chilly brook
Sorry I can’t let the meme die
floral tinsel
Well.. Now we have proof that not only are we the strongest at aoe damage, but also that block is an amazing stat in m+
old zephyr
You kno, What give me 1 hour and i'll most proper math of this
graceful field
hello everyone is the engineering helmet any good for prot warrior in M+ or should i stay away from it? 😄
old zephyr
Engi helm is Good
floral tinsel
@graceful field it's decent
chilly brook
I’d also like to apologize about getting tilted over the crit block thing, it’s just like a daily occurrence even though there are several sources and blues that have told people to keep going with block and ignore the crit block cap
graceful field
would other helmets of similiar item level be better? or how is it?
old zephyr
I'll most the friking math just let me get to my computer
exotic spoke
What are you trying to math out?
old zephyr
Engi is one of the6coolest because gizmo
How much Dr you get for every 100 or si Block value according to content and mastery
Assuming 100% Block chance
floral tinsel
@graceful field sry for boring answer... Basically the helmet has decent traits across the board (BS/DC, world enlarge thing, ablative shielding, a shield that absorbs) and can only be surpassed by some helms of the same ilvl.. It also secures that you have a DC trait if you don't already.
exotic spoke
I mean, that’s a very multifaceted question you’re taking on and it will depend on the Azerite traits, the level of the Azerite gear, the point in the rotation, is avatar up or down, content level, shield level, and I may be missing something
graceful field
hmmm ok thanks you very much for nice answers guys! 😮
floral tinsel
Lol true
exotic spoke
So many variables to say with any confidence the DR for every situation
old zephyr
It does not dépend on traits, neither on bom
floral tinsel
Care to @me with the result.. Obviously I am interested
old zephyr
Bom affect mastery and mastery Will be part of the équation
Traits that affect Block affect it through Block value And it Will also be part of it
exotic spoke
So sure, if you want just the actual values... but then utilizing that you’d have to consider all the information I listed
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you. And if so sorry
old zephyr
The answer to should I get more Block value is going to be "yes" anyway Because nothing that you could have instead give défensive benefit
Aside Maybe blood sport
valid knot
[Diamond-Laced Refracting Prism] any good for us?
sick sentinel
bis for surv
lusty grotto
its our best defensive trinket yes
trim yarrow
do i need vers over haste for enchants and gems
trim yarrow
ok thanks
mint adder
Hey so can someone explain to me how parry works with block? Can you parry a blocked attack?
mint adder
How does it work then
lusty grotto
iirc parry goes before block
since parry is 100% mitigation
so it really doesn't matter if you're blocking or not
you will still parry 100% of the damage
mint adder
Okay interesting
neon tangle
There's no currently achievable haste cap
old zephyr
more than 150%(i don't have the exact number) for 100%SB uptime
exotic spoke
That said, don’t overvalue haste
modern brook
ItF gets more value the more haste you have
neon tangle
^^^^ there's not really a "too little" or "too much" level currently
just take whatever you get
but don't sacrifice ilvl for it
trim yarrow
ok thanks
primal crypt
Just go arms
old zephyr
Alright, here is the big diapointment lads
the point at wich block value start giving less DR the more you stack does in fact not depends on mastery
for it is freaking 0
let's all unequip our shields
lusty grotto
mastery increases block CHANCE
not block value
when you SB you are at 100% chance
old zephyr
is but it increase critblovk
exotic spoke
How do you get dr starting at zero when you haven’t capped anything yet
lusty grotto
you may have been confused on that part
old zephyr
With K value beeing M+/LFR
exotic spoke
Ok, now calculate time to live which will likely be linear for blockable damage because it is for armor
supple path
Is that the standard wow graph of linear increases in survival time/EHP, reduced returns in absolute damage mitigated?
exotic spoke
Which is the more important part of the equation
old zephyr
and 0% critblock
lusty grotto
i have no idea what that graph means
native bear
bestial throw isnt blockable right?
lusty grotto
it has both k-values and block on the same axis?
supple path
the dot's spell refectable, but don't think there's anything to block there
lusty grotto
yeah cause K is constant throughout the encoutner
old zephyr
botom axis is curren block
old zephyr
left is %DR from +10Block
lusty grotto
uhhhhh
exotic spoke
Based on that graph block gets less dr the more you have
old zephyr
yes but it still has nothing to compete with for DR
what could you get INSTEAD of it?
final mist
Armor does the same thing. That doesn't mean Block gets any less valuable as we get more of it.
exotic spoke
I’m going to take an educated guess
final mist
Same with Armor.
exotic spoke
Based on the post I linked - because the formulas are identical
lusty grotto
i mean that graph is just basically the formula graphed
old zephyr
^
exotic spoke
That time to live is linear even though the % blocked has DR
lusty grotto
you could tell it was gonna be that way
old zephyr
time to live means nothing
exotic spoke
Time to live means everything
final mist
I don't know what the point of it even is, because we've known that armor and block reduce "less" the more you get of it.
It's not a new concept.
old zephyr
I have a healer watching my back, I live forever
exotic spoke
I want my healer dpsing as much as possible to maximize output in m+
old zephyr
people were arguing that because critblock there wath a breakpoint in block value
were it starts losing value
or giving less
lusty grotto
and we corrected that person
final mist
Yes, but that doesn't mean block gets any less valuable.
supple path
Reducing your healing required by the initial 25% is more valuable than reducing the remaining 75% of healing required by 25% more, in terms of absolute global/mana expenditure saving...it just doesn't really present any meaningful reason to stop getting more defensive stats.
old zephyr
it doesn't because we can't get anything defensively worth instead of it
final mist
When it comes to blockable damage, nothing will compete with more block rating.
old zephyr
aside maybe "bloodsport" or a ver ssocket
final mist
There's a reason why the block azerite traits are so highly valued, or why shield ilevel upgrades are always upgrades no matter if your old one has a socket or whatever secondaries.
Block rating is just that good.
final mist
The same reason why people insist on trying to "make" Ravager or Devastator good again.
modern brook
is already good :^)
neon tangle
@modern brook FWIW I think it's valuable for people to think critically about how their class works
supple path
The only action you'd ever really change based off this is how heavily you value the block azerite traits in m+ or whatever.
neon tangle
Even if you're wrong it's a valuable exercise
supple path
And even then...probably not changing the weighting enough to actually make neutral traits superior
modern brook
Sure; I just think there are better places to look than 2nd armor stat for critical thinking
supple path
It's one of the very few actual itemization choices we make
"more block value vs secondary stat traits" or whatnot
modern brook
Its the same choice we make with every bit of itemization
primal crypt
👏🏿
supple path
A socket vs a higher ilvl shield is a way more heavily weighted choice than e.g. IF vs treacherous covenant
Like, there's only one correct answer in the first case, but the latter is at least worth LOOKING at
modern brook
Yeah im saying its not: Forgive a shitty example:
if you have 5000 haste 0 crit and 500 mastery, and are debating between 2 425 wrists, one with 500 haste and 100 crit and another that was 400 crit and 200 mastery; the crit/mast one is the right choice because of how uneven your stats are
same goes with block
Shield and azerite is the only way to get block raiting
neon tangle
@supple path just to play devil's advocate, I think that someone sitting down and doing the math to understand why ilvl wins on shields is more valuable than us repeating the same shit all the time
modern brook
so its value is super inflated in those slots
dense salmon
Guys quick question did they fix the orb into tankcombo on mythic grong
supple path
Well sure Sad, but the math isn't something that really changes or can be challenged after being done initially
modern brook
if other equipment slots gave block you'd find yourself taking middle talent choices more often
exotic spoke
You’re doing it at the wrong time then
Orb can cancel the whole combo if done at the right time
dense salmon
cause it the first time
neon tangle
@supple path It gives people a deeper understanding of a class, we're often giving people the answers to forumlas rather than letting them work it out themselves
modern brook
it needs to be done before u get grabbed iirc
dense salmon
that happens
neon tangle
even if it doesn't change it great for people to learn
supple path
I think it is valuable to consider that, for example, block value has greater absolute gains in a mythic raid than m+
signal plover
Hit orb as he casts the first tank combo ability and you shouldn't get throw
supple path
Even though it basically boils down to "yup the guide's right about traits"
modern brook
THe guide wasnt right about traits for a while 🤷
"BoM is not good, not that its bad" - the guides a few months ago
supple path
Yeah - part of why I always want to know the math behind it.
neon tangle
@modern brook pretty much
modern brook
not to open that can of worms
broken roost
I mean - block rating and mastery scale somewhat inversely, dont they? Maybe not enough to care (block >>>> else, and ilvl >>> secondary distribution), but like with enough block rating, the crit block % of mastery doesnt do much and with enough crit block%, block rating about the 42.5 or whatever doesnt do anything... or am I missing something?
lusty grotto
math is good
yes
its more complicated than that but
that's the gist of it
but the thing is
broken roost
Right so to say that block rating doesn't reduce in value is disingenuous - just that the reduction doesn't matter
supple path
Yeah it reduces in value but remains #1
modern brook
THats the same hair splitting as saying we dont have a haste cap is disingenuous, its just too high to matter
exotic spoke
Even though block rating reduces - time to live is linear. That is an important distinction
lusty grotto
so lets say you can in theory get 84% Block DR
you will no longer need crit blocks
so you probably don't need the chance part for it
broken roost
Right but in this case, one of the soft caps is actually reachable (that is, crit blocking for 85%) - so it stands to reason that there is a change in values there
lusty grotto
but you certainly could use the chance overall for those SB/LS gaps
broken roost
The haste one is theoretical because we dont have the stats to do it
supple path
Up to the point that your crit blocks are 85%, block rating has "X" value. After that point, it has "< X" value. It's still the best stat though so in practice...doesn't matter.
broken roost
Yeah - that's the only soft cap we can reach so worth talking about imo - I was distracted by it for a bit when I got there
supple path
Except it may e.g. impact how much you weight IF vs other traits or something, but that'd be a spreadsheet of an annoyance to sort out.
primal crypt
So what am I to take away from all this
supple path
"we're pedantic"
primal crypt
I need a tldr
broken roost
Block 👍
exotic spoke
Block value is good
lusty grotto
in theory it will be extremely difficult to get non-crit block dr cap
modern brook
Just reroll monk 🤷
supple path
I mean the only real, practical takeaway may be like...I wouldn't even consider bloodsport as an alternative to IF until you're crit blocking for 85%, but that's a feels scenario.
chilly brook
We’re still on this block thing?
primal crypt
Nah it's done
supple path
We're wrapping it up.
primal crypt
Very interesting nonetheless
The math behind it all
I dont understand it all, but I block good
chilly brook
I mean if we’re wrapping it up then this is literally all you need to know
primal crypt
So...
outer dew
Just RR bear
exotic spoke
Eww I’m not a furry
primal crypt
So has anyone ever sat there and calculated how much static haste we could acquire
supple path
Right. The only actual question is things like, "How much better than other stats is it?" and that will only ever be applicable in azerite trait scenarios. Likely a question we'll revisit as new azerite traits come out, too.
primal crypt
Off current drops
broken roost
Lots - but not enough for the 50% party
lusty grotto
50%party!
broken roost
primal crypt
50%party
exotic spoke
Are you including god like titanforges plusbsocket or just the 415 version?
exotic spoke
Because otherwise if you got a god tier ring - the all haste one - at 425 that would be huge lol
primal crypt
I feel im at the point where my haste is good enough
supple path
Is it even hypothetically possible for us to get 100% uptime on shield block with all titanforges/sockets?
supple path
I forget how it scales in terms of what % you'd need for that
primal crypt
But anything after that is filler
brave mauve
You guys have spent 2 hours arguing about a possible softcap on a stat in just the second tier of this expac. Y'all gonna be unbearable in 8.3
exotic spoke
At least we’re not bears... get it... unbear... able
primal crypt
I swapped out a bunch of gear the other day just to lower my haste
brave mauve
ayyy
supple path
We ended it without screaming at eachother. #StillBestTankDiscord
primal crypt
And third shield block wasnt up in time
So that became my aim in stats
To keep that uptime
broken roost
Actual softcap** but an irrelevant one - just an important distinction hah
old zephyr
from m math, it seems tha 5Ilvl Might be worth a vers socket on a shield on % reduction
may vary accordng to your stats though
primal crypt
Yeah, too much variety to preach that though
old zephyr
for me it would be the case RN
exotic spoke
Again, I still think time to live is more important and that is linear.
But, it’s up to you.
exotic spoke
415 always
mental scarab
kk
neon tangle
@exotic spoke How would vers make that worse?
exotic spoke
Unless dc is involved
mental scarab
only one bom then-.-
exotic spoke
Not sure sadbox. Too tired to think it through and too busy to math it out
brave mauve
lmao
old zephyr
5ilvl on a shiled is about 2% DR
exotic spoke
I imagine it doesn’t change at all? All else equal - the vers wouldn’t effect the fact that it’s still linear for your given stats
old zephyr
nah cause I only forgot 0 in shiled value
supple path
Linear increases in time to live aren't linear reductions in amount of healing required to live.
So it gets funky (to be clear not in this case, just a wider point)
valid knot
[Bwonsamdi's Bargain] any good for us?
brave mauve
😠
exotic spoke
True censuras, but in thinking about the amount of time the healer can go without casting a heal - IE increasing their dps - is what I have in mind
supple path
Yeah, think about it from the PoV of how many heals they have to cast over the whole encounter though
e.g. 100 -> first 50% DR takes that to 50, second 50% DR takes that to 25, etc.
Though it doesn't really matter in any practical scenario, I just like the math!
inland mesa
and words
exotic spoke
I do too.
inland mesa
I'm so tilt I still don't have a 415 shield and if we kill blockade they may push jaina extend D:
supple path
Mythic lockouts are a plague.
exotic spoke
So if I have 60 second TTL and the fight is 90 seconds they only have to cast enough heals to get me to 50+ % in an ideal world
How many GCDs that is depends on their healing throughput and my hp
supple path
The ol' boss dies while tank's at 1% scenario hah
exotic spoke
Just coming up with a baseline approach to be consistent
valid knot
What trinkets are bis for m+ for prot warriors btw? Wanna know what i should farm
supple path
The savings on the healer do diminish, but in practice it's irrelevant because every piece of new content (with the new k values, higher damage, etc.) shifts the window back closer to where we started.
valid knot
well what ones are best for surv and what ones are best for dps
lusty grotto
bro this aint new
daring kayak
LOL
quiet bobcat
I am using diamond from opulence and bwonsamdi’s bargain for progression survivability. Is that a scrub level trinket combo?
lusty grotto
bargain is crapola
lusty grotto
exotic spoke
Censuras I agree with you. Small TTL increases don’t reduce amount of healer GCDs used. Large ones do, but having no amount of experience with healing I wouldn’t be able to say how it relates
lusty grotto
pls no memes when helping people yamo
primal crypt
Im being serious
lusty grotto
they might think its good for everything else
primal crypt
we used bargain for Shrine
on bursting
CC'd elites, pulled droplets and non elites
then kept pulling non elites through out and just kept dmg uptime
lusty grotto
might as well use mythrax with it
primal crypt
bargain helped save time
lusty grotto
diamond + mythrax would have been better you think?
primal crypt
probably
lusty grotto
a decent WF or TF eye
lusty grotto
hmm
primal crypt
and ilvl difference is a factor
primal crypt
is 400 possible?
chilly brook
As someone who has recently picked up holy Paladining again for the first time since cata I can confirm that a tank staying alive for a long time is all I care about
lusty grotto
cause technically you wouldn't have to deal with the dot afterwards
chilly brook
I don’t really care how much I have to heal
primal crypt
Mythrax would definitely be superior
At a higher level
Hoping they have it on the tourney realm
Then I could try it out
distant crystal
i think uldir loot should be able to forge up to 425 now
primal crypt
But who's going back to mythic uldir lol
chilly brook
But I also feel like hpal is probably the most mana efficient as long as you don’t get put in a position where you have to spam flash of light
lusty grotto
yeah lol