totally, i'm doing keys with some coworkers and one of my buds is trying to get into tanking. He's worried about taking on +2s...and he's like 385. Yet last night I took him through the same key on my 350 tank. As I told him, it's all about you and how you tackle the key and not simply an ilvl/class thing
#protection
sand egret
wary gyro
I only freak out when my hp stays at 40% for a few seconds after dropping 60%
meager temple
yeha, im talking about the tanks that waste 2-3 cd's cus they drop under 80%hp once lol
outer dew
Lmao
Was memeing with guild
They go wtf, that mob exist?
Meanwhile my ass is going
sand egret
the witches?
sand egret
what mob you referring to
outer dew
Oh, the assassins on stairs in atal
meager temple
btw, somone has the same problem, sometimes when i use charge my character starts charging, moves 2yards and then stops/wasted a charge stack
neon tangle
@outer dew I really need to start running some higher keys
outer dew
Lol
neon tangle
I've been pugging a couple higher ones (just 14-15) and when I get good dps
it's amazing
I kinda always blamed myself
outer dew
I mean
The thing about being a tank
Is you have to baby your dps
Call out every kick
Etc
meager temple
nah
outer dew
Do you have an automarker?
meager temple
only true for bad dps
outer dew
??
No
If you leave it to
I got it
Kicks will overlap
No matter how good or bad they are
Or kicks will be on something you didn't want kicked
neon tangle
I should prolly get an auto-marker
I normally just do it w/ keybinds
but it limits what packs I'll do it on
meager temple
i maybe see that different cus i play rogue most of the time and always have something too interupt a skill
outer dew
DR is also a thing
wary gyro
That's one thing I like about tanking on pally I can just get every kick with as resets
outer dew
You have to call and make sure dps are Ccing or kicking properly
neon tangle
I also want a healer that does dps
outer dew
Lmao
neon tangle
Working with a monk from my guild
outer dew
Bruh
wary gyro
So a disc priest
neon tangle
I have a pally healer who normally plays disc tho from my guild
and he does the deeps
especially on bosses this week, he was doing 15k+
I mean ret
wary gyro
Holy can pump some damage during wings
lusty grotto
yeah last boss is awesome for disc and hpal
and kitty dots if youre feeling spicy
nimchipadin does good deeps imo
neon tangle
overall he's... an interesing healer though, 1/2 way thru a KR12: "OH WOW YOU CAN PURGE THE DEBUFF FROM REAPING?"
outer dew
You don't scream "dispell me"?
neon tangle
I wasn't dying, didn't even think to look
outer dew
Too wild for me
lusty grotto
that's spicy
wait what
who is this nerfclap
selling pitchforks -----------------E let's get em boys
soft lotus
what? Source?
lusty grotto
dunno saw someone said 'nerfclap' earlier
probably a BDK reroll
is it you sadbox?
fresh valley
sick sentinel
"X person was XDk right?" Could be applied to like everyone
outer dew
I don't remember everyone's toons
outer dew
Yea, it is
He shifted warrior to be main
A friends been making fun of me though
Warrior finally meta and I want to meme as bear
neon tangle
@outer dew warrior's meta and I moved to BDK... and BDK lost it's king status
neon tangle
I'm the shittiest version of FOTM
outer dew
Just not top tier meta
neon tangle
I'm curious how it's going to shake out in the coming weeks
It's still fairly early in the season, and we haven't had any "easy" weeks yet
people still gearing / top players still doing prog
sand egret
@outer dew not gonna lie, I started playing my bear way more as 8.1 dropped....
grizzled steeple
@lusty grotto we'll he is one of the top wow streams at the moment
lusty grotto
so ill just keep watching my homies Sense, not Late and not Yamo
sand egret
def not those last two
sick sentinel
I was hanging out in my guild discord voice and the 2k boomie-raid leader of my guild was in there and I was like wait he is doing the dungeons completely different than I am
sand egret
how dare he.
soft lotus
IP cap scales with AP, right? is there an exact formula for it? In my experience it capped at 5.6 * AP at ilvl 390, but now at 405 it's suddenly different, it caps around 6*AP, which surprises me.
sand egret
yes it does
sick sentinel
he was like "shrine is really easy if you know the route " and I was like what?
I reached 1.8k with having absolutely no clue of what I am doing
sick sentinel
just going in there and thunderclaping
lusty grotto
youre a doofus clearly kaege
sick sentinel
he also plays resto
outer dew
It depends on the comp
outer dew
It's a pain on fort week
lusty grotto
shrine is free this week
sick sentinel
made me feel like I was competely trash at the game
sand egret
@soft lotus
sick sentinel
I have had a +18 shrine on my bags for the past 3 days
neon tangle
tbh shrine wasn't bad last week either
soft lotus
thanks bladesong, I missed the vers part!
sick sentinel
Just waiting for mdt to tell u what adds are what for reaping
last week I tried to do a +17 shrine
lusty grotto
sadbox, no
lusty grotto
vomit shrine on tyrannical
outer dew
Oh
neon tangle
@lusty grotto I thought shrine was hard on bolstering until I had not-shit players show me spicy strats
lusty grotto
goddamn it
lusty grotto
shakes fist at Tofu
sick sentinel
I really am thinking of going Alli just for meld and leaving my feral in guild
soft lotus
@sand egret that is the absorb gained per IP cast, right? Do you know the formula for the IP cap?
neon tangle
for all the minibosses w/ lil' dudes you just have your group take off and you taunt the mini boss
sick sentinel
Since they are starting to trail tanks
undone sun
caps at 1.3
outer dew
Remember when you didn't believe about SR cyclone strike
undone sun
1.3 casts
soft lotus
ok, thanks
lusty grotto
not giving activision more money
sick sentinel
Or watch it
undone sun
๐
lusty grotto
so slow blade
outer dew
On phone
lusty grotto
its the bear thing
outer dew
Someone check what io is #1 NA bear tank
lusty grotto
๐
undone sun
get good
outer dew
Run more keys often
sick sentinel
(Continuing what I was saying )
outer dew
Oh so Kaege
sick sentinel
I run keys like daily
sand egret
Have you tried just not being bad?
sick sentinel
but I just wing the route
outer dew
Did your druid friend call me a booster monkey
sick sentinel
I mean
outer dew
For getting a free 21
lusty grotto
hold on i aint following
sick sentinel
no he didn't call you anything actually
lusty grotto
someone fill me in
sick sentinel
what to tofu being boosted?
sick sentinel
no
lusty grotto
hmm
sick sentinel
he didn't call me anything
I didn't say anything stupid or something
I just felt like one
after talking to him
outer dew
I mean
High levels keys
Is same group + trying new shit
You wont be pushing terribly hard outside of it
lusty grotto
nod
sick sentinel
I mean, my group is scuffed anyway
outer dew
Like, was memeing with guildies
sick sentinel
I have like 15 people I choose from semi randomly
outer dew
Theh dont know anything about some of the pulls inwas doing
sick sentinel
some of them I found when they were 1.2k etc
and now we are all getting higher
but some people just level somewhere
they cap
I have good healers in there
and a good boomie
but that's it
my rogue/hunter got fed up by the fuckups and left
Like he left literally today
My dh is burning himself out of apex
sick sentinel
He join us for keys that are 16 or higher
lusty grotto
i swear ive tried fucking everything
sick sentinel
But cba'd to do anything less
outer dew
Lmao
sick sentinel
I did some keys with guildies and it went surprisingly well
I can't trust anyone so I just pug everything
neon tangle
@outer dew we also mess up a lot, on really dumb stuff
Tried to invis pot the bridge on KR, someone pulled with their pet
and in a panic the people further ahead pressed a movement ability to get back to the group, pulling... 2 more groups
wary gyro
Keys are honestly a lot easier than people tend to act like they are
neon tangle
or walked through a mob? unsure
lusty grotto
did he accidentally press attack?
neon tangle
lock said "my pet pulled"
sick sentinel
I have pulled stuff with absorb o tron
wary gyro
Ah the good old "my pet pulled" excuse
neon tangle
@wary gyro I think keys are "easy", i.e. a KR13-15 isn't "hard" it's mostly hitting the timer / executing perfectly so you don't have to waste time running back
wary gyro
Yeah
neon tangle
I'm certainly not at risk of dying unless I pull fairly big
wary gyro
A lot of people tend to overstate the difficulty of keys in my experience and it scared me off tanking them for a long time
modern brook
pet pulling is fake af tbh
neon tangle
prolly someone trying to walk through mobs then
or pressing an ability
or something
anyhow, we wiped (the 1 time) and missed the timer
the run back to that bridge is brutal
modern brook
I hate Underrot and KR because of that tbh
KR should checkpoint after 2nd boss, not 3rd
UR should checkpoint after 3rd
neon tangle
I mean for perspective we had 25 deaths in a ML12 and timed it
sick sentinel
No Fuck u, have these 3 minutes and lap it up u filthy fucking animal
And don't ever ask us to rework our dungeons again
outer dew
Yea
modern brook
I think it goes against the spirit of keys; and im sorta sad its meta
modern brook
U right tofu :^)
lusty grotto
tofu that's enough for today
modern brook
isnt there a toy that lets u meld
sick sentinel
Its what happens when u fuck up ur dungeon design
neon tangle
@modern brook I feel like the whole "skip the last reaping" is lame too tbh
outer dew
Oh
lusty grotto
youre only allowed to recommend meld 3 times a day
narrow abyss
I think deathskipping is fine depending on map
modern brook
I'd be less against skipping the 100% reap if it was consistent
narrow abyss
Where itโs organic enough of a layout you can be creative with route
modern brook
Like you straight cant do it in UR or KR
narrow abyss
When itโs a linear dungeon I think itโs silly
modern brook
and its impossible not to skip it in Sots
outer dew
What?
neon tangle
Feels like I'm breaking the mechanics rather than playing them
neon tangle
It's like playing CS vs. playing Overwatch, or playing DotA vs. HotS
lusty grotto
you can skip KR's
neon tangle
one you're working against the engine, one you're playing what it wants you to
lusty grotto
but since so few mobs, there's really no reason to
outer dew
And nimchimp, you always have to preach the almighty NE
sick sentinel
Hey man, don't u like these dungeons and how to negate a majority of it u have to die
narrow abyss
I mean when the total adds total for more than 100% it only makes sense youโre gonna skip some
lusty grotto
they tried to make trash bosses in BFA
lusty grotto
they tried to add questionable complexity to M+ dungeons
neon tangle
@lusty grotto I love scary / interesting trash
outer dew
a rogue can do it too
neon tangle
I think it's more an effect of tuning m+ % numbers
lusty grotto
so up to a certain point, your dps is just capped and you just look for ways to avoid shit
modern brook
To be clear I'm not against avoiding shit
signal plover
Designing dungeons for the wide variety cesspool of us wow players is an utter nightmare so blizzard just does w/e
neon tangle
The whole idea of them is "this is roughly the % of trash you need to finish the dungeon" rather than encouraging all-stealth groups and sillyness
modern brook
I just think death runs are dumb
lusty grotto
say what you will sadbox, but its fucking hell for pugging
signal plover
They don't care about yer problems
lusty grotto
yup
neon tangle
@lusty grotto idgaf about pugging, high level m+ is organized content. I don't complain if I can't pug mythic raids
sick sentinel
Eh
outer dew
But that depends
sick sentinel
Potions exist
outer dew
What's considered high?
lusty grotto
fair enough @neon tangle
inner trail
simple just fix death runs, make invis pots great again
lusty grotto
its weird how draenor invis pots are still the best though
can just walk over mobs
no zig zagging required
neon tangle
@outer dew "high" to me is prolly >10 for rando pugging
sick sentinel
Really?
lusty grotto
yes really
mental scarab
w8 what
outer dew
Yeap
lusty grotto
you guys didnt know this?
neon tangle
And you can pug a 10 w/o a ton of coordination
mental scarab
clearly no ๐
outer dew
I mean
outer dew
I pugged 15 without comms
sick sentinel
Who hasn't
neon tangle
Or, maybe, just match trash % in a way so that you don't hit >100% w/o trying
inner trail
just like cut the range by 2 times and make it harry potter invis cloak
lusty grotto
https://www.wowhead.com/item=116268/draenic-invisibility-potion this "phases" you, so you can walk over mobs
outer dew
I like our current state of trash. I think you guys are over thinking
Having a choice to pull more to skip
Vs flat out killing in some spots is fine to me
Routes aren't one dimensional
lusty grotto
for some dungeons they are
inner trail
well having rogues as mandatory in 15+ is not great
neon tangle
@outer dew re: 15s w/o comms, I'm sure some people can, I don't really consider it normal or what your average player will do
outer dew
People can try out different pulls and try different shit
But that's the thing
Some peoples normal content is different than others
lusty grotto
that's true
outer dew
Like the skips dont really harm the average
You wouldn't need to for the average
Remember, the average doesn't get aotc
neon tangle
@outer dew I'd more like to see skips as being less necessary / impactful
outer dew
But they aren't for the average
sand egret
tfw +10s are considered "above average" on a meta-level
neon tangle
Some dungeons (KR, etc) there's not a huge difference in skipping vs. not, ML it's SO MUCH WORSE to not skip
sand egret
people will trivialize +15s here, but from a meta-perspective, +10s are the end-game in terms of Mythic + content
outer dew
But that's the thing
It's fine in average
Pushing high keys
You should be trying to figure out how to make your run faster
neon tangle
I guess I don't find the skip meta super intriguing, so I'd rather see optimization happen in other dimensions
thin ore
I heard you can cheese crushing leap with heroic leap
does it work and is it worth it and when is the timing?
sick sentinel
Just wait till exploisve week and be boosted with 4 dh
Who's going to stop you? God?
outer dew
But that's the thing
You remove on dimension without skips
Now you're dealing with a gear check and mechanics check only
Once you remove skips, you remove 1 dimension I which you shave time
Just running at mob pack to pack, and seeing if your gear hits the dps check to time it
analog swift
I mean kinda
Motherlode freehold atal are all enhanced with rogue skips but you can pull differently and shave off tons of time without rogues
Donโt get me wrong I refuse to do a shrine or temple without one
Or at least resto druid
ocean acorn
why dont they make a cloak item bu with a smaller radius
neon tangle
@outer dew I think you're simplifying what would happen if skips were relatively less valuable, pulls would happen differently, different classes with their own utility would get brought to groups, etc
analog swift
Kinda
outer dew
Have to remove shroud, remove meld, wtc
analog swift
Got a lock for an underrot? That bridge pack is cake
lusty grotto
making shroud available via professions would have them admitting shroud is basically too strong for this expansion
ocean acorn
well it is tho
ocean acorn
i hate relying on having to bring a rogue
outer dew
Like, it's cool you can kill mobs in separate packs.
ocean acorn
especially since my guild only has one
neon tangle
@outer dew I'm not saying to remove any of that, think about skips in KR. You can skip stuff but the value is relatively lower than something like ML
lusty grotto
but if its blizzard they are likely "exploring other options" like gutting the shit outta rogues
outer dew
Value in KR is still value
neon tangle
It's a dungeon design issue not an ability issue
outer dew
The main reason the skip in KR is fine
lusty grotto
it's also an ability issue man
outer dew
If you kill boss first, makes it so that your respawn point is at third boss
Main reason why you skip that trash too
ocean acorn
they should just tune KR
chilly brook
We are talking about the company that made a bunch of boneheaded changes to make everything โmore meaningfulโ
lusty grotto
you have a class that does godlike dps, has 2 ccs (blind, sap), has shroud, has combat reset (vanish), has 4 interrupts (kick, gouge, KS, CS)
i mean
analog swift
TD lock picking gates is indefensible
outer dew
Pull everything to cannons so you can +2 your 19
No. Not even that
Rogue having shroud and double CC
To skip whole brig
chilly brook
Gear swaps? Makes decision making less meaningful
outer dew
And different parts of trash so they pull to cannon eventually is huge
The keys can be fulfilled with inscriptions
The rogue is different between a +2 or dead key for TD
chilly brook
Rogue is broke
ocean acorn
rogue is broke
stark sage
@chilly brook well limiting gear swaps does make decision making more important
lusty grotto
people were complaining about DHs but... that's an easy fix
outer dew
Nothing wrong with DH outside of pvp
lusty grotto
they are balanced imo, compared to rogues
ocean acorn
i mean DH is still really strong
outer dew
They're in a good spot
chilly brook
On the contrary it makes for less meaningful decisions @stark sage
analog swift
Disagree
analog swift
Instead of deciding D all of the above you have to pick a b or c
stark sage
its like asking soup or salad, and you just say yes
analog swift
I mean imagine if we could gear swap to full defensive traits and no BoM when avatar is on cooldown
modern brook
TBH soup is just salad cereal
analog swift
Or when you are about to pull a hard pack
lusty grotto
that was just too hard for the average player
stark sage
limiting gear swaps may limit the skill cap, but it does make decisions less important
neon tangle
@stark sage it's limiting the dimensions that you can optimize in, which is imho sometimes a good thing
chilly brook
Itโs just as binary as it ever was except now you just decide do I need more survivability at some point in the dungeon or not
stark sage
it gives opportunity cost to your decisions
making them more important
its just false to say its the opposite
neon tangle
regardless seems like a less interesting thing to do w/o legendaries / tier sets / etc
stark sage
i agree that this system has a lower skill ceiling
outer dew
@modern brook what if I dont put Veges in my soup
wise gyro
Earthlink or Azerite Veins M+?
modern brook
IDK
lusty grotto
swapping has nothing to do with skill
modern brook
is gear swapping really skill or just time played
lusty grotto
im not sure where you guys are getting that
outer dew
Time played
chilly brook
Wait Wut
outer dew
Reason I'm working on bear is because my warrior hit the TF gear wall
modern brook
sorry tofu, im working on not using the back ticks
sick sentinel
it is more important since you have a decision to make however small based on the dungeon you are doing, in legion you just swapped to whatever the moment required
wise gyro
Gear swapping correctly is skill.
modern brook
Its not even decision making
wise gyro
which correlates to skill
modern brook
its listening to what X youtuber says
modern brook
not ours lol
lusty grotto
are your talent picks skill?
chilly brook
@sick sentinel itโs an artificial importance placed on you by the devs. It however removes any real player agency in moment to moment gameplay imo
modern brook
Gear shouldnt be a moment to moment decision ๐คท
wise gyro
being able to decide what suites the encounter the best on your own accord makes you a more skilled player than someone who cant/
lusty grotto
disagree
chilly brook
@modern brook every single rpg Iโve played disagrees
ocean acorn
go nim go
modern brook
Yeah nothing says roleplaying like hang on pal gotta put on some new pants before i really fuk ur shit up
sick sentinel
Sure but the decision still exists, 'will I take ST azerite / trinkets?' 'will I roll a defensive setup' etc in legion you literally had 3-5 gear sets and you just toggled them, it was hardly more rewarding or engaging
outer dew
Bullfango understands
modern brook
its a dumb bit of micro optimization
lusty grotto
im with bull too
wise gyro
Like saying swapping to a speed set while farming to reduce the time you are wasting doesnt make you a better player than some one who doesnt
outer dew
I'd be okay with switching specs in m+
modern brook
that only really servered to make certain DPS specs not have to decide between AoE and ST stat priorities
lusty grotto
๐คท
it worked cause of set bonuses and legendaries
im not saying its bad
but it certainly is not skill
wise gyro
what is skill then?
analog swift
And the decision is much more meaningful now
stark sage
also very few people actually needed to use gearswaps to be competitive in legion, an environment where gearswapping makes a huge difference.
in bfa i dont think i have ever sat and thought wow i wish i had X azerite piece on instead of Y
chilly brook
Itโs hardly any more meaningful
analog swift
Once again
sand egret
but mah choice!
chilly brook
@stark sage yep
But it would be nice to be able to have that choice
Itโs really actually more dumb that you canโt swap trinkets
stark sage
the choice is still being made
analog swift
If I could just swap my 3x BoM traits to 3x IF for the beserkers in kings rest. Thatโs no more a choice than balancing t before
analog swift
Traits are the same thing
ocean acorn
u cant block bleeds right
chilly brook
You donโt block bleeds my guy
ocean acorn
lul
analog swift
Kkk bad example. But yeah itโs not a massive skill gap to put on 3X BOM/x3 DC for reaping
Then go back to two defensive traits later
chilly brook
And itโs not a massive difference either but at least the person would have the ability to
chilly brook
Pressing the right button in the right order !=skill
modern brook
No one in this discord will unironically say that Prot warrior DPS is skill based
analog swift
Now you have to actually think about your balance
wise gyro
using tricks a non normie would use is skill.
modern brook
because theres nothing to fucking do u press ur buttons
undone sun
๐ค
chilly brook
Do I need x? If no then go with y
umbral forge
Am I a bad person if I tell my co-tank he doesn't have to tank Rastakhan or the adds in phase 1?
Because it feels really good to take all that damage.
Maybe I'm a masochist ๐ค
neon tangle
@chilly brook The way I look at it is false complexity, it's a choice you can make, that doesn't require much thought, that makes things better for you
modern brook
ur a bad person jettom
neon tangle
it gives you a dimension to optimize in
chilly brook
Itโs literally just moment to moment optimization
Which I enjoyed a lot in legion
And itโs odd
That itโs allowed in raids but not m+
modern brook
raids arent a race
sick sentinel
It could've been interesting if they made azerite or trinkets even remotely interesting in BFA, but it's been so tediously bland which is why I can understand people missing the gearswap meta in legion
analog swift
Because M+ is one whole instance lol
analog swift
Kkk true
ocean acorn
well in a raid its like a boss is one encounter and in a dungeon the whole thing is that encounter
modern brook
go ahead and cite a single WF that was decided becaus someone had a 2nd set macro'd griff
undone sun
i think the ideology is that dungeons are one entire fight, where raids are separate
chilly brook
Uldir?
modern brook
you're like purposefully missing the point
chilly brook
No Iโm not
analog swift
I mean should you also be able to swap players in M+ like you can in raids?
modern brook
then you're being dense for the sake of it ๐คท
chilly brook
Different group comps, trait comps
neon tangle
You can't change gear mid boss (or at least nothing more than a weapon), in dungeons the whole run is the "boss"
in raids it's a series of bosses
chilly brook
Then why have bosses to begin with
Thatโs a dumb point that the devs made up to justify the change
modern brook
because big monster feel good to kill :^)
analog swift
Watchu think griff? Have a rotating bench throughout a key?
neon tangle
You also don't have a timer for the trash in raids
analog swift
Because itโs just like a raid right?
oblique garnet
tfw you deplete 19 ur by 7 seconds
chilly brook
I mean I do somewhat think itโs dumb that if someone leaves your group itโs a done deal on the key @analog swift
ocean acorn
feels bad
analog swift
For optimization
modern brook
@oblique garnet im sorry for UR loss
analog swift
Your ability to consistently dodge the point is amazing
chilly brook
Would it really be optimization with the time you lose getting them in the group and caught up?
chilly brook
You know I used to main BrM
However there is a lot of oversimplification and hyperbole going on
modern brook
:^(
chilly brook
Anyways Iโll just say this and leave the topic alone. The way it worked in legion for m+ was fine, it wasnโt broken and it wouldnโt be broken in BFA. Youโd have small gains by gear juggling but it wouldnโt realistically be the difference between making it or depleting it. Putting the limitation on the gear swapping was essentially pointless.
chilly brook
No reason to lose gear like legendaries either ๐
lusty grotto
sadly
modern brook
You cant just reiterate what we've been aruging this whole time and leave the arugment >.>
stark sage
legendaries wouldnt work in the current azerite environment
lusty grotto
eh legendaries are ๐คท
neon tangle
@lusty grotto I think it's fine (in some cases) to limit choices since it forces optimization in other dimensions
It can make things more interesting
chilly brook
@stark sage probably not but azerite is an atrocity that never should have existed imo
lusty grotto
yes agreed
stark sage
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
chilly brook
@modern brook Iโve said what my opinion is Iโm not interested in having a 30 minute argument over it
neon tangle
It's not a perfect example, but in bicycle racing they limit the minimum bike weight and other stuff because it forces optimization of the athlete rather than the gear
modern brook
how in the hell can you prefer legion legendary system over azerite?
analog swift
^^^
chilly brook
^
analog swift
Legendaries were fun tho the acquisition wasnโt
stark sage
7.0 legendaries <<<<< 8.0 azerite
however 7.3 legendaries >>> 8.0 azerite
will have to see what 8.2+ azerite is like
analog swift
Prot belt gloves sephuz and pants were great
chilly brook
^^^
modern brook
Yall are some blinders on
ocean acorn
i didnt get my good legendaries til the end
modern brook
idk what to tell you
stark sage
8.1 azerite is passable imo
lusty grotto
dont forget gottagofast boots
chilly brook
No blinders on
sick sentinel
wtf went on
modern brook
๐
sick sentinel
regression is really bad yeah
but blizzard has no idea how to do the game without it
like going from 35% haste just sitting in town to 10% haste
chilly brook
If anything if you think the game is better now than it was in 7.3.x then I think you got some blinders on
undone sun
7.3+ didn't make me want to quit
sick sentinel
feels crap
undone sun
8.0-8.1 did
sick sentinel
thats what happens when 90% of your playerbase is absolutely garbage and has no vested interest in improving, easier to push the top end down rather than the bottom end up
I do like the playstyle of BoM
neon tangle
@sick sentinel I mean, at least as far as tanks are concerned, BfA is still pretty far down the path of "gear doesn't matter, play does"
sick sentinel
like giving up consistency and then everything revolves around a single button
I also like the things like DC or BfI slightly change the priority
I don't like IF though for example
stark sage
i like that there is a lot of flexibility with azerite, compared to legendaries
sick sentinel
I would like BS if its focus was on the leech part and not on the IP getting bigger part
neon tangle
@stark sage Azerite is just pick-your-own set bonus
stark sage
more or less
neon tangle
idk why people act like set bonuses were wildly better
it sucked when the new tiers bonus wasn't balanced well, or when an older one was too good
modern brook
-
Legion is a better expansion full stop; dont pretend any of this is saying 8.0 > 7.3
-
Stat regression has nothing to do with Azerite aside from the fact that its what replaced other gear. The leveling process and subsequent stat squish as handeld super poorly but that doesnt make azerite bad conceputally
-
Azerite is litterally set pieces that dont fuck with gearing as hard and are accessible outside of raid. its a literal iteration on the concept to address a common complain with set items
-
the neck grind, and the rep grind behind it, were bullshit and tedious but no more or less so than AP in legion. None of that is new; not sure why people are making such a big deal out of it other then "islands are less fun then i thought they'd be"
brave mauve
It sucked T21 2pc being a thing and overnight everyone's warrior alt had the flail. :^)
neon tangle
@modern brook agreed
sick sentinel
that playing ench shaman during Antorus
modern brook
Like BFA has a lot of problems
terse scroll
Hey man. Don't make fun of my warrior alt with MOP CM Gold Mog & Flail.
sick sentinel
and the best gear would be 2/2/2 with 2 very specific leggos
neon tangle
well, sorta, I had issues with legion, mainly around that I don't like the RP aspects of being some demi-god
modern brook
Azerite, as a concept, is not one of them
stark sage
@modern brook well yoru first point, you are comparing a full multi patch expac to the first and 2nd patch of BFA, i wouldnt make the claim that legion is better than BFA until BFA is nearing its end
modern brook
the supporting systems, sure
neon tangle
and then rolling in to my class hall, and being 1 of 500 other demi-gods
"I HAVE ASHBRINGER", oh cool 258 other ashbringers
modern brook
@stark sage I only included that because 7.3 > 8.0 was brought up and i was gunna be white knighting bfa
I personally enjoy the content of BFA a lot more
though the classes were much more enjoyable in legion
I'm one of 4 people that actually liked islands though ๐คท
neon tangle
also imho legion was the culmination of blizzard always approaching issues by adding more
sick sentinel
like you would have to get nighhold 2piece to super titanforge, then ToS 2piece to titanforge and then have very good antorus set pieces
modern brook
I remember a thread hat was literally "got max level antorus peice, still using T19 wf"
stark sage
tier had major problems, but i do miss it
stark sage
it was just poorly balanced at times
sick sentinel
and gloves was part of my 4 set
so I had either to not use 4set
or not use gloves
fresh valley
let's be real for a second though, where were they realistically going to go from with legendaires, set bonuses, artifact weapons, sockets in the weapons
like everything was so juiced up
chilly brook
No one really said anything about the stat regression
modern brook
Azerite is literally designed to answer that problem and the problem of people who only wanna do M+ needing to raid for tier
fresh valley
you couldn't keep piling on top
chilly brook
Thereโs so many other areas where it regressed
fresh valley
something had to be removed. which ultimately would be a power loss
brave mauve
Legendaries should have been reusable enchants you could put on normal gear to upgrade them to legendary status with the effect, so you'd maintain set bonuses :^)
stark sage
@modern brook azerite is a logical progression and a bit of a kneejerk reaction to the very large problems legendaries + tier + artifacts brought
chilly brook
Specs in general regressed, losing abilities, passives etc. and in many cases a whole talent row if they wanted to keep their artifact ability
sick sentinel
I like the idea of azerite
sick sentinel
but we just lost way to much at the same time I guess
blizzard can make it good
they still have time
stark sage
i dont feel combat has regressed, its still the mashy hotkey based combat i remember from the past
chilly brook
M+ regressed imo because of the swap thing
fresh valley
i do think it's bogus we didn't get a new talent row at 120
modern brook
Combat feels exactly the same
stark sage
its felt the same for years
modern brook
the only difference is my one shot macro is 8 lines shorter
sick sentinel
I actually enjoy both the gameplay of fury and prot
chilly brook
Never had one to begin with
fresh valley
i guess @chilly brook only swapped his gear one item at a time
chilly brook
Uhhhhh
fresh valley
real pog champ
brave mauve
not gearswapping my manually typing /equip item while between pulls
Stay casual
neon tangle
That's what auto-run is for
chilly brook
Anyways back to what I was saying
Pushing avatar and waiting a full global sucks ass
Same with Demoralizing Shout
chilly brook
And insert x CD
brave mauve
Avatar is fine. Demo Shout still feels weird, though
modern brook
Also I've defninitely gotten used to the GCD change
brave mauve
^
neon tangle
Blizz did address it in a Q&A FWIW
modern brook
It doesnt feel as weird as you're making it out to
chilly brook
Just because youโve adapted to it doesnโt mean itโs not a regression
undone sun
buff*
chilly brook
I can get used to not having a foot
sick sentinel
avatar+charge-TC-demo-TC is okay-ish
neon tangle
basically that they didn't feel like it was fun or interesting class design long term to just have a macro w/ all your offensive CDs in it
chilly brook
It doesnโt mean itโs not a regression or change from what it was
neon tangle
and the way to handle it is to make those abilities feel good / active
which I agree with
If Pressing avatar caused you to tclap
that would be grand
chilly brook
Except popping any CD always felt good
sick sentinel
sadbox that's what they said they are experimenting with
neon tangle
@chilly brook If you have one button it's basically 1 CD
chilly brook
I donโt remember an offensive CD that felt bad except BrMs artifact ability
neon tangle
The issue, amongst others, is that having a pure-buff on the GCD feels like you've had to take a break from doing -stuff-
especially early on in a pack
sick sentinel
they don't want offensive CD off the GCD because they don't want you to pop them at the same time?
neon tangle
It gets worse if/when you have abilities with synergy that are both on the GCD
chilly brook
The issue is fundamentally changing the way the shit works 12 years later
neon tangle
so you went from 1 GCD "wasted" to multiple ones
sick sentinel
like fury warriors in legion
exotic spoke
Yup, but thatโs what they wanted to change with bfa
Lining up all the cool downs for one stupid burst window.
sick sentinel
use like 12 cds during charge and instakill a guy
or lining up everything and pressing their trinket
undone sun
definitely better ways to fix that than slowing down gameplay
sick sentinel
DoS
sand egret
a current issue is that CDs ( a lot of them) weren't created with moment of impact in mind
sick sentinel
the did the trinket thing
chilly brook
So many better ways to fix that shit
neon tangle
point is, the issue isn't "my CDs are on the GCD", it's an issue with the CD not feeling good to press
exotic spoke
Unfortunately it means our abilities which are both offensive and defensive like demo shout (and to a lesser degree avatar) suffer
sick sentinel
I am almost ok with how things are rn
chilly brook
No it definitely is an issue with my CD being on the gcd
sick sentinel
I am not ok with Rallying cry being on the GCD
chilly brook
Fuck avatar and DS being on the GCD
sick sentinel
I hate that
sand egret
the real question is why
sick sentinel
demo would be cool off the GCD as well
exotic spoke
Ditto kaege. I donโt understand that one at all
chilly brook
They havenโt been for like 12+ years
sand egret
why does it feel bad
undone sun
slows down gameplay
exotic spoke
I understand why the ones with an offensive aspect are on gcd
sand egret
what is slow though?
undone sun
unnecessary waits
sand egret
action - > impact?
sick sentinel
"kaege rally"
rally's after a second
neon tangle
@undone sun If avatar kicked off a tclap or something it wouldn't "slow down gameplay"
terse scroll
Prot warrior is still a lot of fun to play ๐คท
sick sentinel
somebody is dead already
neon tangle
it would feel like a beefy / fun button to press
undone sun
BUT IT DOESN'T
fresh valley
I think having your offensives on the GCD if it does something in addition to the buff. Like avatar on the GCD with a ignore pain proc, that's pretty good
neon tangle
Right
fresh valley
hitting recklessness and nothing happening, is bad
chilly brook
Do I really need to explain it, the game functioned fine without it being on the gcd now it is because pressing CDs and lining them up is too hard
neon tangle
I'm saying it's shit right now, I don't think the right answer is to take it off the GCD, I think the right answer is to make it a fun button to press
sand egret
yeah Jon, that's kinda the shift they're going for in the future
fresh valley
yeah ion has talked about it
sand egret
putting more oomph in the moment
chilly brook
It already is a fun button to press
chilly brook
It would be better if it wasnโt on the gcd like it should have been to begin with
sand egret
the ascendence case is a good example
sick sentinel
using reck and it pops odyn's fury KreyGasm
fresh valley
on the GCD slows the game down too much
undone sun
it was fine in legion, off gcds
then they added a fuck ton of GCDs that absolutely no one liked, it's unnecessary in every single fucking way
chilly brook
Off the gcd is hardly an โI win buttonโ
fresh valley
somewhere in the middle is what they're looking for
undone sun
it's a bandaid """"fix"""" to a problem blizz thinks they have
undone sun
just because it's different doesn't mean it's better
fresh valley
and just because it's different doesn't mean it's worse
sand egret
just because it was, doesn't mean it was good either
neon tangle
^^^^
chilly brook
Itโs worse in every sense of the word
chilly brook
Itโs literally limiting for limits sake
modern brook
in its current itteration
sick sentinel
more than I did in 7.2.5 and in 7.3
modern brook
sick sentinel
but that's not the game
neon tangle
@chilly brook I think we're looking at it from twi different perspectives
sick sentinel
just the people I play with
fresh valley
i think we all agree have a GCD do nothing but buff, in the middle of the rotation is bad
neon tangle
You think blizz did it to slow down gameplay, I think they want to make the buttons feel impactful
fresh valley
blizzard even agrees
sand egret
ding ding
chilly brook
How can you say that CDs werenโt impactful when you popped them every time you could?
Thatโs the dumbest argument Iโve ever heard
modern brook
U still do ๐คท
sand egret
(tbf, some people do, but we agree that there is a distinction between pacing and agency)
undone sun
IP felt impactful in legion because it absorbed a fuck ton, OFF GCD
BC felt impactful because of guaranteed crits on everything, OFF GCD
putting defensives on GCD was actually the dumbest thing ever
chilly brook
Avatar=free damage
undone sun
killed tanking as a whole
chilly brook
It felt very impactful
modern brook
SAdbox's point is that we can move cd's away from just bieng stat steroids
and into more interesting stuff like the void eruption or collossus smash
neon tangle
@undone sun @chilly brook It's not a perfect comparision, but pressing deathstrike vs. pressing SB feels pretty different, impact on damage taken != how the button feels to press
sand egret
not to mention that BC is a special case
undone sun
idd, that's been an agrument for a long time
modern brook
BC was sick af tbh
sick sentinel
antorus 2set bonus btw
modern brook
I def miss BC
fresh valley
Exactly. It's an evolution of game play. Sadly i think becuase they're on this "expansion every 2 years" clock they can't innovate
undone sun
death strike being on GCD is acceptable, it's rotational
fresh valley
so we get half backed shit like 8.0
and beta for azeroth
those are all real valid complaints
undone sun
with built in buffs
chilly brook
Not taking damage feels just as impactful to healing for 3 million in one press
sand egret
mostly because auto-crits meant you immediately saw the results, so that was actually a good example
exotic spoke
Beta was too short imo. My opinion was that it was pushed by sales dept
neon tangle
@undone sun I'm not arguing whether it should or should not be on the GCD (for DS)
chilly brook
Sadly I think the team that actually made WoW good and current day wow team are two completely different things
modern brook
@undone sun isnt avatar rotational
sick sentinel
shield slam shield slam shield slam shield slam
undone sun
alpha and beta felt nonexistent in terms of devs actually changing based on feedback
neon tangle
I'm saying that it "feels" like a pretty impactful button to press
fresh valley
but i think they are going for an evolution and instead of being able to work them out in the beta and release a polished product it's rushed and half designed
neon tangle
you press it and "SHIT HAPPENS"
chilly brook
Alpha and beta was the devs saying โwe know better than you shut up and like itโ
exotic spoke
True thyme. Throw in the fact we didnโt have all our talents for a large portion of it too
undone sun
yeah, they state they're going to improve on communication but it just ends up with, we know more than you. stop.
undone sun
idd
neon tangle
I agree with them on this change, I think that they could fix it
sand egret
tfw people blaming production problems on devs
undone sun
the public community are wild 90% of the time
exotic spoke
As an IT professional and seeing things driven by sales department as well as from developer driven BFa launch definitely feels like the sale dept drove it
modern brook
citing this discord in 8.0
undone sun
but there are plenty of resources they can use to actually make progress
they failed to do so for bfa
chilly brook
In fairness BFA was a shitty idea
exotic spoke
That too
fresh valley
at the end of day, i'm with @modern brook the game is fun. I'm enjoying it. i'm enjoying m+ thoroughly. the raid designs have been damn good.
modern brook
Uldir was super sick until you had to clear it agian
fresh valley
is the game perfect? nah. does they story suck? sure, but i've never played for the story
sick sentinel
BoD is super fucking sick as well
modern brook
^
undone sun
content is almost meaningless if the classes you play the content feels like actual garbage ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
modern brook
Well i feel bad for the sub rogues out there then
cause that sure isnt a problem with prot warrior
undone sun
class design should be miles ahead for priority over anything else
stark sage
yeah class design is the biggest factor for me
broken kite
Gcd change was one of the worst I've experienced in wow
fresh valley
if you don't like how prot warrior feels, go play fury
modern brook
^
fresh valley
fury is the most fun i've had in forever
modern brook
Fury also well designed
stark sage
part of why i played wod for as long as i did was because demo lock was so good
undone sun
^
modern brook
ARms is too until they got rid of execute refund :^(
undone sun
wod had good class designs
broken kite
Playing dps ๐คข
merry cave
This is why I've never understood the people who are deathly devoted to one class forever
chilly brook
Pressing Furyโs CD feels like trash
merry cave
If it feels shit I'll just play something that's fun
undone sun
๐ one ๐ tricks ๐
fresh valley
i like with prot i have choices to make on gcd to gcd basis. do i do something defensive, do i do something offensive
modern brook
recklessness is sick as shit wtf are you on
undone sun
i tried all the tanks i had interest in for beta and beginning of bfa
nothing stuck ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
neon tangle
@undone sun anyhow, I think that they should either make the buttons feel good to press or move them back off the GCD, right now we're in a shitty middle ground
exotic spoke
Iโve never played anything but a warrior at high levels. No interest really.
Did the arena thing upto 2400. Rbgs to 2350. Decent at raiding...
I just donโt have an interest in other classes
runic spruce
Tanking the fire mage on Jadefire Masters, is that only magic damage? Should you still be using SB or putting all rage into IP?
nocturne plover
Prot arena 2s is lit ๐
neon tangle
I also enjoy the slower pace of DK tanking, and having fewer but "bigger" buttons to press
so that's probably why I'd prefer the "big button to press" option
fresh valley
then go play a dk ๐
undone sun
blood and brew were really the lowest on in my interests
fresh valley
i love fury because it's GCD capped
undone sun
brew too boring and blood felt slow
fresh valley
arms felt so bad waiting for auto attacked
modern brook
I cant believe ur going to let a 1.5s timer stop your enjoyment of an entire expansion dude
nocturne plover
I can't hear u over the sound of thunderclap and the cries from the dps getting wrecked on aoe pulls ๐
I was dk in uldir, meh
sand egret
subjective impressions are powerful, mate
merry cave
See I enjoyed feral when it was slow and I had to pool energy, but doing the same on a dk feels so sluggish lol
modern brook
if u press recklesness and theonly thing in ur head is "damn this gcd is fucking horse shit" for the reamining durration of it you got problems with how ur playing ๐คท
that cooldown is dope af
sand egret
it's also why this game is a pain to design around
neon tangle
@undone sun I mean, even if you want more filled GCDs I think that a mega-avatar with like a double-damage-TC to start it would feel cooler than pressing another devastate or shield slam
sand egret
for every " I like X" there's a "I like Y"
and 30 other people saying "BUT WHAT ABOUT Z!?"
chilly brook
How about they should have stuck to this crazy idea where different classes played slower or faster and had more or less impact per button press
undone sun
it's not the GCD alone that made that decision for me, it was the overall ideology blizzard has for class design this expac, it's half assed
sand egret
but what if your class didnt play at the pace you liked?
undone sun
try a new one
sand egret
i wanna play a pally, but it's too slow
chilly brook
Then play the one that does?
neon tangle
@chilly brook Having CDs on the GCD does not mean that it will slow the pace of the class down, it -feels- that way when the GCD does nothing
sand egret
but the game is shit cuz i can't play what i want to play
merry cave
Lel
neon tangle
"does nothing" like waiting for avatar
sand egret
which is exactly where were at now.
undone sun
not really
sand egret
are you playing?