protection

[honest canopy]

And you picked shamans

To Chain hero

How we killed Brutalus was that, chained lust and drums

[uneven mason]

Paladins to offtank adds

[honest canopy]

Yeah

Conecrsrion ranking in hyjal

[uneven mason]

Holy paladin in PVP gear = best offtank in Hyjal

[honest canopy]

Well I did tank in swp as well

[lusty grotto]

that's just too specific to classes though, not to roles

[honest canopy]

But i was ret on muru and kj

[uneven mason]

Its the same thing though Nim

to push higher content

you require higher Damage

[lusty grotto]

i don't think it is

[uneven mason]

thus even your healer must do damage well

[honest canopy]

WF was high enough

Was shockadin

In swp

[lusty grotto]

well yeah mac, but that's a role example

[honest canopy]

For Bosses and trash

Ret from. Muru

[sand egret]

but the issue i'm alluding to is that since WoW has added so much shit, new classes, new specs, new abilities, more complex mechanics - the "roles" get more grey in what a given person should do. You have tanks/healers needing to push dps checks, you have dps "soaking" mechanics, yada. It's quite tricky to point out what makes a class good at a role. Prime example: Mass Grip. An objectively huge asset that kinda lives outside of these traditional roles.

[neon tangle]

I'd argue that tanks/healers caring about dps is more of a community shift than one in WoW really

[final mist]

Tanks and healers have always cared about DPS.

It's not a new thing.

I tanked as Arms for quite a while in Vanilla because it was just as tanky as Prot and pumped out a lot more damage.

Then I got Thunderfury

[neon tangle]

I think that through wrath really the community didn't care quite as much

[sand egret]

haha yeah.... ol' Rogue tanks

[neon tangle]

Even if some of us did

[final mist]

Moreso higher ranked players than community, but it's not really a new thing even then

It's just that people realized they were shit and got better

[sand egret]

but I'd like to see a world where we didn't have three roles that are 1) DPS 2) DPS that takes hits and 3) DPS that heals 😃

[final mist]

Some people tried to falsify that by looking at shit metrics like gear score or some other shit

A world like that will basically never exist

[sand egret]

it very much has

it's traditional rpg design

[final mist]

DPS checks aren't as bad as they used to be, but they're still important

[sand egret]

dps checks are a mechanic as well

[final mist]

They tried to neuter tanks like that in BfA and look where it got them

Tank population is lower than ever

[neon tangle]

I don't really think it's traditional rpg design, if anything WoW is more fixed/role based than say.... D&D or something

[sand egret]

that's what i'm saying this would require a whole redefinition

[neon tangle]

D&D tanks are far more in the bruiser category than WoW tanks

[final mist]

I wouldn't say it's traditional DnD design

[sand egret]

not something on the scope of what they did for BfA

[final mist]

Have you seen the kind of bullshit damage a tank can put out in DnD?

[sand egret]

it's the traditional trinity, yes

modern versions are cray cray too

yeah

[final mist]

The traditional trinity was never "pure DPS", "pure tank", "pure healer"

[neon tangle]

@sand egret Most old RPGs (D&D and friends) have far, far less strict of roles than WoW does

Healers can heal... a little, tanks can do a couple things to try and help people

Everyone is doing as much damage as possible, normally fairly similar amounts

Shit, 4th ed was complained because it brought MMO-style stricter roles

[sand egret]

i mean in a game where you're literally building your character up, sure. But that is a very specific thing to DnD

the game is all about building that role

[final mist]

And every modern RPG since the 80s is basically directly descended from DnD

[modern brook]

DnD was play wizard or your an idiot 🤷

[final mist]

The "traditional trinity" has never been the way you described it

[sand egret]

i mean hard disagree but aite

[modern brook]

punch man + knife guy + magic boy + cleric girl = traditional trinity

aka party of 4

[lusty grotto]

i only know of the holy trinity in EQ1: warrior, cleric, enchanter

[undone sun]

trinity = 3
lists 4

[lusty grotto]

baiscally tank, healer, cc

haha bull

[modern brook]

thats the joke

[cobalt trellis]

is opulence trinket good for m+?

[lusty grotto]

depends on what you're comparing it to, but yes its decent

defensively

[modern brook]

opulence tirnket really good for not dying

better options for killing stuff; but pretty hard to compete w/ it on the not dying side of stuff

[cobalt trellis]

well im running blockade and unng ak feather

[sturdy sable]

Naw man you gotta be a acrobat @modern brook

[lusty grotto]

don't run blockades

blockades is 350 ilvl, surely you have better ilvl'd trinkets around

[dense flame]

Do you guys like the mekka trinket and hero combo with avatar in m+ 😘

[modern brook]

@sturdy sable dnd gives u the options to be man with sword, man with lockpick or literal god

[mellow bridge]

I'm liking the opulence trinket myself

feels good to smooth dmg

[lusty grotto]

its the best trinket from BoD for us basically

[dense flame]

Feels good to have above 100% haste for a moment

[wary gyro]

If you have opp trinket theres no reason to have blockades anymore

[lusty grotto]

defensively..

[uneven mason]

I missed a D&D reference

sad now

[neon tangle]

@modern brook Except for early game, which lasts for everrrr, and you're "can cast 1 spell then are man with stick"

[mellow bridge]

any pathfinder players in here

i miss my archer inquisitor

[cobalt trellis]

385 vectis or 395 disc on the dmg side... i dont have any good defensive trinkets

[neon tangle]

both are good

vectis is a defensive trinket too, yo

[modern brook]

THats if your dm understands why you're not supposed to hand out long rests

😠

[neon tangle]

crit = parry

[lusty grotto]

lol

[mellow bridge]

for pure dps you can check out bloodmallet

[neon tangle]

and crit = dead shit

dead shit does 0 damage

[mellow bridge]

obv they dont take def into account

[modern brook]

any stat steroid is pgood for prots

we like stats

[lusty grotto]

yup

@cobalt trellis go disc

syringe is good too though, if you need a slightly more defensive option like sadbox said

disc might better ST on an equal ilvl, but its higher ilvl anyway so it will probably output slightly more dps on both ST and AOE

[neon tangle]

also arguably disc is more... reliable?, don't have to stack up the buff, if it procs it just does damage

no RnG and having it proc at the end of a pack

[lusty grotto]

i wouldn't say it is

on equal ilvls i would prefer syringe

[modern kite]

Evening everyone, its better to have x2 Iron Fortress or x2 Callous Reprisal? Same ilvl pieces

[neon tangle]

YMMV I guess, always feels bad when the syringe proc is "wasted"

[modern brook]

@modern kite they're pretty even imo. IF probably has the edge in both content types though

[lusty grotto]

IF is ranked higher for us in the icy veins guide (hopefully you've gone over it)

[modern kite]

The Callous Reprisal DMG Reduction will not increase right? Having more of it only increase its dmgs?

[lusty grotto]

it stacks

so yes it increases

but its not better than IF

[neon tangle]

@modern kite the damage reduction and damage both stack afaik

[modern kite]

But is mandatory? I mean I can also put x3 IF and sacrifice 1 Callous Reprisal

[neon tangle]

It is pretty good for m+ since you use revenge more there, and generally encounter more magic damage

[lusty grotto]

you can put anything you want, but IF is better than CR

[neon tangle]

IF is more impactful for raids where you use revenge less, and use SS more

[lusty grotto]

no

[neon tangle]

pick your poison, yo

[lusty grotto]

IF is better in M+ either way

BFI is the one that procs from SS

[neon tangle]

whoops

I'm a bad tank

[spice crescent]

is 3 fort too much?

[cobalt trellis]

thx for the feedback guys ! 😃

[lusty grotto]

i mean it depends on what you have available

[modern kite]

lol from random 415 aze I've got [Harpooner's Plate Cuirass]

[lusty grotto]

if you don't have any better traits available, then there's no such thing as "too much"

yeah i can't click links in discord 😃

(:

anyway you want IF and BFI on that piece

no reason to go anything else

[modern kite]

https://www.wowhead.com/item=159416/harpooners-plate-cuirass&bonus=4817:1512&azerite-powers=1

[neon tangle]

@lusty grotto I'm curious how much DR you'd get from ~500 block value

I don't even know how to calculate that

[chilly brook]

Enough to justify using it

😉

[final mist]

Block is basically armor

Separate armor

[lusty grotto]

same formula with the K constant value

[final mist]

You have Armor-armor and Block-armor, on two separate calculation rolls

[steep lily]

Are the BoD k values for each difficulty posted somewhere in here?

[final mist]

I don't believe they're in here, but I can get them

[uneven mason]

frigging scrolling

answer a question thats 2 pages up 😡

[final mist]

Stolen Borrowed from Mel's post in HoW: ```Armor formula:

Armor Mit% = Armor Rating / ( Armor Rating + K )

Block is a second damage reduction applied after armor if you successfully block a hit.
Block Mit% = Block rating / ( Block rating + K )

Currently known K values:
Base: 6300
m0/+: 8467.2 ( x1.344 )
BoD N: 9355.5 ( x1.485 )
BoD H: 10344.6 ( x1.642 )
BoD M: 11478.6 ( x 1.822 )```

[neon tangle]

Anyone want to send me what their current block rating is?

I'm away from WoW PC 😦

[fierce juniper]

I think those values are a little old Sal

8.1 K values
M0/M+: 8467.2 (x1.344)
BfD/Shrine LFR: 8467.2 (x1.344)
BfD/Shrine Normal: 9311.4 (x1.478)
BfD/Shrine Heroic: 10275.3 (x1.631)
BfD/Shrine Mythic: 11390.4 (x1.808)

pretty much the same regardless

but ye

[steep lily]

Thanks!

[lusty grotto]

sorry its not a k constant, it's a k value

[uneven mason]

"variable"

[lusty grotto]

yeah but its important to not say constant hehe

a constant is constant

[uneven mason]

right

[fierce juniper]

its constant for a given difficulty 😉

[lusty grotto]

well thats true

[inland mesa]

#science

[sand egret]

I read that second list that Marok posted as "Shrine" like "Shrine of the Storms" and literally my first thought was, "oh, does explain a few things...."

[lusty grotto]

rofl

[sand egret]

isn't it Crucible of Storms anywho? ; )

or something like that? they got too many overlapping acronyms nowadays

8.2: Battle for the Shrine of Azshara

[lusty grotto]

raid of pre-old god dudes IMO

"belated naga queen raid"

[neon tangle]

@fierce juniper re: collous reprisal vs. IF, any thoughts on how close their DR is?

especially considering K values as the raids go on

[modern kite]

I hate you @lusty grotto , Whit that kind of stories on ilvl, thanks to this im super pumped but with like 15% haste 😭 😭 😭

[lusty grotto]

thats fine

don't look at your secondaries

remember our secondaries are very close to each other in terms of their value

[modern kite]

I'll trust you man, as always

[lusty grotto]

so going down on haste, isn't bad at all... especially if you gain other benefits

👍

[neon tangle]

and hey there's no more fetid that makes one of those stats worthless

[lusty grotto]

even on a Fetid fight, you had RA

[neon tangle]

fetid prog w/ crit array was a real feelsbad moment

[lusty grotto]

oh

right right

for some reason i was thinking of the HR on Fetid thing

[neon tangle]

If anything I'm kinda happy RA went away, it made it feel "bad" when your secondary spread wasn't right

[lusty grotto]

im happy its gone now you dont have to swap pieces to have RA up... maybe not as prot because galerunner was really good but as other specs/classes

[steady dragon]

IS anyone else progging conclave

my shield just loses durability like crazy

[daring marlin]

don’t trust nimchip

he’s a...a...🤮...paladin

a blood elf paladin too

[lusty grotto]

😮

[warm plinth]

All you had to say was blood elf.

[lusty grotto]

i havent played nimchipadin in 2 months, also its a healadin okay?!

its a female belf though

because male belfs dont exist of course

[modern brook]

imagine trusting nim 🐒

[lusty grotto]

yikes

[modern brook]

❤

[steady fiber]

can help to chose ?

🤔

[neon tangle]

ilvl

all the ilvl

[steady fiber]

hmm so 3rd and 1st ?

[modern brook]

420 socket

and ur asking?

higher ilvl

socket

sick meme

[steady fiber]

but no haste 😦

[lusty grotto]

420 + 405

[modern brook]

fuck haste

[neon tangle]

^^^

[lusty grotto]

again... don't overvalue haste

[daring marlin]

hell yeah dude fuck haste

[modern brook]

we need to start writing stat priority as ilvl >>>>>>>>>>>>haste> everything else

[lusty grotto]

that's a sick ring though

yikes

[modern brook]

^ agreed gratz

[daring marlin]

nim go ret

[lusty grotto]

slap a sexy haste gem on it

[daring marlin]

be a man

[lusty grotto]

i just dont like the ret playstyle :\

i might try it but i doubt anything has changed

[modern brook]

ret looks sick tbh

one of the prettier specs in the game

up there w/ dh imo

[neon tangle]

I love how every tank discord revolves around "Should I drop ilvl for $GOOD_STAT" "no"

[daring marlin]

you don’t like build->spend?

[lusty grotto]

i like it

but

[daring marlin]

BUT

[lusty grotto]

ret feels super sluggish

[daring marlin]

insane

I will direct you

to arms warrior

[lusty grotto]

bro

you dont really build spend as arms

[daring marlin]

sluggish

[modern brook]

Arms warrior is best class cause of strong hugs

[daring marlin]

not what I said

[lusty grotto]

strong chef hugs

[modern brook]

These biceps are for hugging

💪 😠 🤗

[lusty grotto]

if i go arms again for BoD and outdps all fury i will screenshot every meter and spam it to Guil on DMs

[daring marlin]

gl

[lusty grotto]

it will be a while though, need to gear up LOL

[daring marlin]

arms is traysh

[modern brook]

Arms is def a feel bad rn

[daring marlin]

Like not even just the numbers either

[lusty grotto]

can we agree though, a good arms > a bad fury

[daring marlin]

feels bad to play

not hard

[lusty grotto]

its not DH easy though

[modern brook]

I'm at the point where i consider prot warrior the best warrior dps spec

🤷

lets you not run a tank in keys

op

[daring marlin]

a good insert poop class is better than most bad insert good class though

[lusty grotto]

GOTTEM

[daring marlin]

I’m hoping

[chilly brook]

Oh wait

[daring marlin]

for some fat

[lusty grotto]

didnt we learn not to go with meta picks pre-8.1 ? 😛

[daring marlin]

BoM shoulders

[chilly brook]

You mean that’s not DH?

[daring marlin]

from my 415 rando

[chilly brook]

I thought vengeance wasn’t a tank spec 😜

[lusty grotto]

jesus lol

[daring marlin]

if they’re not BoM I’m gonna neck myself

[modern brook]

Vengeance isnt a spec*

[lusty grotto]

dont do it guil

[daring marlin]

it will happen

[neon tangle]

@daring marlin There's no need to race change to undead

[lusty grotto]

haha

[daring marlin]

yo my gm got bis bdk shoulders

or so he said

from rando

[chilly brook]

Good lord

[daring marlin]

idk shit about bdk

[chilly brook]

Spotify is on point today

[neon tangle]

"BiS" azerite for BDK is basically worthless

all the traits suck

[daring marlin]

I heard their traits are garb

[modern brook]

Yo party; send me that list griff

[lusty grotto]

i got FIDLAR new cd on repeat

im sorry album

cd's is 20 years ago

[chilly brook]

No list rn just listening to Above & Beyond radio

[modern brook]

A radio dedicated to your work ethic 😃

how nice

[chilly brook]

Lol

[daring marlin]

https://www.wowhead.com/item=159423/pauldrons-of-the-great-unifier&bonus=4817:1512

He got that shit

@neon tangle BoD already makes me a forsaken

It fucking BLOWS

[modern brook]

Does blood even have bis azerite

[lusty grotto]

hahaha

[neon tangle]

I guess those are pretty decent

[modern brook]

dont they take neutrals?

[neon tangle]

bcause of rezan's fury

@modern brook Yeah BDK almost always takes the generic trait

[daring marlin]

hey man just repeating what he said

[modern brook]

👀

[neon tangle]

I mean it's a good piece for sure, prolly BiS

Rezan's fury is good af

and DRW is one of the less shit outer traits

[modern brook]

IDK why but taking generic traits is taboo to me

[sturdy notch]

Can warrior jump with sphere on masters myth?

[modern brook]

it feels gross

[uneven mason]

because prot

[modern brook]

^

even off prot

like it doesnt occur to me that generics might be a better dps gain than class traits

[uneven mason]

I've been prot all Xpac

[neon tangle]

@modern brook Imagine this: the DK equivalent to deafening crash is DRW

[uneven mason]

so when I See someone in my guild loot something that is like a 10ilvl upgrade and be like "Aw fuck shit drop"

[lusty grotto]

feelsbadman

[daring marlin]

hm

[neon tangle]

DRW lasts 8s, using a rune (with the trait) extends it .5s

[daring marlin]

Those shoulders are amazing for UH

Maybe he meant bis for UH

[neon tangle]

and you have to play like a monkey and stack runes if you want to "get the most out of it"

[daring marlin]

he does M+ as dps

[modern brook]

helchains+fester is good right?

[neon tangle]

@daring marlin rezan's fury is literally the BiS pve trait for BDK

[daring marlin]

yeah but he has them specced for UH atm

and he does a lot as UH

[neon tangle]

ahh

[sand egret]

@modern brook i feel the same way re: generic traits. They just seem categorically "lamer" than class ones

[modern brook]

100%

[sand egret]

strong or not, they seem lame. ie: my feelings on Vers as a stat

[modern brook]

I like when classes pref vers over other stats

[sand egret]

like i'm playing a Prot warrior, I wanna have stuff that every dps in my group isn't rocking haha

[daring marlin]

yeah, I’d like them to axe vers

[neon tangle]

Vers is honestly the most boring thing ever

[daring marlin]

bring back stat reforging too

[sand egret]

it's a conceptually bland stat

[neon tangle]

Even as a class that it's "best" for

[daring marlin]

like

[sand egret]

"you do more": The Stat

[uneven mason]

Vers - it does what your primary stat does, but less

[lusty grotto]

ret uses vers

[daring marlin]

99% of these hey is X better than Y questions would potentially disappear if they gave reforging back

[lusty grotto]

or last i checked

[uneven mason]

♿

[neon tangle]

@daring marlin I'd pretty OK witout reforging, especially with how close most of the secondaries are

[lusty grotto]

of course its up to the sims

but jes was very good for ret when bfa came out

[uneven mason]

Hey now, I've gotten like all the caster Xmogs from Uldir because of "shit stats"

[daring marlin]

Reforging was made irritating because of hit and exp.

not the case anymore

[modern brook]

I have so many staff xmogs cause of that mac

[uneven mason]

mhmm

[modern brook]

I dont have a single int class at max level

[uneven mason]

I have a druid, who was guardian

but they'd be like "Shit stats, not an upgrade" so I was like "I'll take it incase I go boomkin"

[lusty grotto]

Several people are typing

[neon tangle]

I'd argue that reforging was a bandaid over badly balanced secondaries + secondaries w/ hard/soft caps

[modern brook]

when i get enough azerite to sustain a 2nd spec I'm going to be fury warrior with sticks

[modern brook]

just need to get robe plate

[uneven mason]

yup Sadbox

reforging was to address the fact that hit/expertise were mechanically required, but only to a certain point

[daring marlin]

I’d argue that since secondaries are so close now what’s the harm in having it currently?

[uneven mason]

blizzard didn't have the 400IQ idea yet to jut fucking get rid of them

[sand egret]

now im getting triggered by that person who came in here and said they loved the hit cap

=/

[uneven mason]

Because not every spec is like prot

there are classes that walk around wearing 20ilvl lower items because of 2ndaries

[daring marlin]

Many are.

[lusty grotto]

lol

not only because of secondaries

[thin ore]

just make one stat, call it "power" or sth and it scales everything of your char and all gear just has more power than other gear

[uneven mason]

Fury in Legion lets have that stat disparity again

[lusty grotto]

my DH friend has a sub 50 ilvl ring because it simmed better

[daring marlin]

And that would help those specs you’re talking about as well. Why are you arguing against yourself?

Reforging secondaries would be a win/win right now.

[sand egret]

cuz he'll always win

[uneven mason]

I don't want to help them

[warm plinth]

Uhh, what? Like a havoc DH?

[modern brook]

2020 it: gear doesnt exist outside of cosemetics

[lusty grotto]

yes

[uneven mason]

^^

[modern brook]

add a talent tree to customize stats

🤷

[sand egret]

wouldn't be unheard of

[warm plinth]

No way. I don't believe a ring 50 ilevels lower simmed better.

[sand egret]

tbh

[modern brook]

Im saying

[lusty grotto]

i trust him, cause i lend him my raidbots thingie

and i run M+ with him

[modern brook]

was that in Legion nim?

[sand egret]

what effin' ring was it....

[lusty grotto]

no

right now

[uneven mason]

Raid bosses now drop "ScoOLAID" shards that you eat to increase your stats evenly, gradually becoming stronger as if you equipped better gear

[warm plinth]

There's just no way lol.

[sand egret]

like a 350 ring?

[lusty grotto]

hes rican, hes 100% exagerating

so probably around 20 ilvls lower

[uneven mason]

the World drop ring with only haste on it?

[daring marlin]

20 and 50

are galaxies apart

[modern brook]

@uneven mason you're literally describing the neck's AP right now

[lusty grotto]

not in our world guil!

[uneven mason]

but applied to every slot Bull

we're heading that direction

gear is just for Xmog

[lusty grotto]

honestly though if sims told him it was better, i'd trust the sims

[neon tangle]

@daring marlin I'm not really a fan of adding systems which just make the game more complicated without having a good reason

[uneven mason]

1 set per expansion

[modern brook]

I dont think thats necessarily bad

[warm plinth]

Well yeah, I'd trust them too assuming there were no known bugs. But I'm just saying that it's not a possibility lol

[modern brook]

I think there could be a good way to handle having stats come from a single source

rather than spread out over gear

[lusty grotto]

ill get back to you on it Ghash, ill find out which rings he was comparing

[daring marlin]

@neon tangle How does it make the game more complicated? It wouldn’t matter to many people and would be a boon to others.

[warm plinth]

If he's like 400 ilevel and has like a mastery >>> ring as his highest, I could believe a 20 ilevel drop

is better

[daring marlin]

Hell, even with hit/exp it was simple. Install that dumbass addon. ez

The game is quite simple as is.

[neon tangle]

It would be yet another system that new players / etc would have to learn about and use, and would largely just be another "plus your character in to website X, do Y"

[daring marlin]

I liked meta gems and more gems on gear in general.

[neon tangle]

If they're going to make shit happen I'd rather it be like

[daring marlin]

I liked helm and shoulder enchants too

[neon tangle]

stuff you do

while fighting

Plugging my shit in to a gear optimizer doesn't really seem fun

[sand egret]

i'd rather have less min/max fuel, not more.

[lusty grotto]

holy shit he has run a lot of gear compares since last week

[daring marlin]

it was just an addon

didn’t need a site

[neon tangle]

You prolly should actually sim it

since stat weights change based on how much you got

[daring marlin]

People are doing more simming and extra shit now than they ever have despite not having these other systems like reforging gear

thanks to asserite

[neon tangle]

right

[lusty grotto]

hes running versa on rings

[neon tangle]

I don't want to add more shit to that

[lusty grotto]

raidbots put it as top enchant

[warm plinth]

Yeah, like I said, if he has like a vers/haste or vers/crit ring, and the 20 ilevel lower one is replacing a master>x ring, I can believe it.

[modern brook]

"here use this third party asset to put the game into simple terms" is like one of the major side effects of complexity without benefit

[lusty grotto]

but yeah he has 400+ ilvl rings now

ill ask him later tonight when i run M+

[warm plinth]

Vers is a lot of DH's highest stat; my weights are vers>=crit>haste>mast atm

[neon tangle]

I also rather dislike what I consider "false complexity" in games like WoW, i.e. talent trees and friends where all you do is use a 3rd party tool

There's no real input from me, it's just "go to website/addon, choose what it says is best"

[warm plinth]

I just woke up and I'm pissed about not getting my last 5 ring trait piece from the emissary. I'm not actually this worked up over a random dude's ring, I promise 😅

[neon tangle]

hurts new players, not interesting for "good" ones

[modern brook]

@neon tangle thats ultimately the difference between simming something like wow vs something like chess

like theres a numerically correct choice

[lusty grotto]

i just remember he said it like twice on discord

[modern brook]

but in ches there are reasons to make the wrong one

[sand egret]

that's also a product of human nature

[lusty grotto]

so now im curious

[modern brook]

and some of the better designed trees have that

[warm plinth]

Yeah. And 20 ilevels is far more believable than the initial 50 :p

[modern brook]

compartively prot's tree is a fucking joke

it may as well not exist

[neon tangle]

@modern brook BDK and some other classes have what I would actually WANT from talents

[lusty grotto]

ill find out to be exact heh

[neon tangle]

i.e. ones that change your gameplay, are fairly close, or situational

opt for SLIGHTLY less damage to simplify your rotation, etc

[modern brook]

S L I C E A N D D I C E

[sand egret]

but the thing is, that IS the false choice

[modern brook]

@sand egret no a false choice is something like BV

why would you take anything else on the tree

if booming voice gives the most rage

the most damage

and the most defensive value

[neon tangle]

^^^

[sand egret]

that's the thing

there's always an optimal choice

[neon tangle]

There isn't always though

[sand egret]

and as long as people are dictating the groups/content

uh

[neon tangle]

BDK / Pally / etc have real choices

[modern brook]

@sand egret

[neon tangle]

You can choose defense vs. offense, slows vs. a sprint

[modern brook]

imagine i spelled chess correctly

[sand egret]

those are different choices

and non-competting

like slightly less

vs different use

[neon tangle]

for BDK at least you get to choose between those

blooddrinker vs. heartbreaker, grip of the dead vs. wraith walk

[modern brook]

Grip / gorefiends is a better example imo

[sand egret]

my point is that people BITCH that X dps class is on the "bottom" when it's only a few % off.

[modern brook]

Grip is on the whole a very strong optoni thats hard to beat in any given scenario

[daring marlin]

Yes

[sand egret]

so the choice to make it "easier" but less

isn't really a practical choice

[modern brook]

but the cdr on gorefiend makes certain pulls easier /possible

so theres a reason to consider the "wrong" choice

comparitevly

[warm plinth]

Yeah, Bladesong, people don't understand that someone has to be on the bottom, and when they're that close together, the better player will bring more to the table.

[sand egret]

you're not going to take a warrior with indom because it's "easier" than dealing with Bolster

[modern brook]

not taking Anger Management is flat out wrong

[sand egret]

you'll just get the one with Bolster

[modern brook]

there are no situations where HR and make up for what you lose

inb4necrotic

[sand egret]

I think you're confusing false choice and no choice

[warm plinth]

Every spec's talent tree has "you must take this" talents though. We're not special.

[modern brook]

No choice would imply AM is chilling on its own teir with nothing else clickable

[sand egret]

no choice is when AM is just flat out better

[modern brook]

I'd disagree but we're arguming semantics and its not really worth it

[sand egret]

false choice is where things seem better but due to other factors, there isn't an actual choice

the factor i'm alluding to is people

[modern brook]

@warm plinth I'm not saying prot's unique in it, just a side effect of being in #protection while discussing the idea of game complexity and player agency

[sand egret]

it's why I make the viable joke all the time

[warm plinth]

Yeah I understand. I'm barely awake anyway so I'm gonna sit this discussion out 😂

[modern brook]

can you elaborate "people" as a factor?

[sand egret]

yeah

[daring marlin]

yeah gramps

[sand egret]

example: You run a pug raid and you pick up a warrior. He's running Bolster. What is your first thought?

or you're applying to a guild

slash looking at apps, etc.

I'm pretty sure it's not gonna be, "Oh look at this person's playstyle choice!"

[lusty grotto]

that happens in every game though

there's no going around it

[sand egret]

duh

that's what a "meta" is

it's not created by the designer

[true plover]

415 alc trinket or go for ilv400 engi helm first? Already have a ilv400 helm as well.

[sand egret]

I mean in 8.0 we dealt with it all the time, in our "choice" to play a "bad" spec

[modern brook]

Blizz has an extensive history of trying to shape its meta

[uneven mason]

what are your other options Nemesis

[lusty grotto]

usually people don't check other talents, they just see class/spec that's it

[sand egret]

you can try

but it's like fighting the wind 😃

[modern brook]

but thats not here or there just a personal complaint with blizzard

[uneven mason]

@lusty grotto I always check warrior talents

[lusty grotto]

we do because we know

i do as well

[uneven mason]

yeah

I check BDK talents too

[lusty grotto]

but Timmy the Warlock who is running a HC pug doesn't check anything

they just see DH, "oh okay, hes gonna do good dmg"

[daring marlin]

both rets got the trinket off mekka last night

[lusty grotto]

at best he looks at IO+kills

[daring marlin]

sadness

One was 410 too

[lusty grotto]

the simplest way to balance a meta is to make it boring

i.e. give similar utility to all roles

pair up their dmg

for dps specs for example

there will always be some class that is slightly ahead, but if you make classes similar to each other you could easily tweak numbers

[sand egret]

then its a constant game of patch the leak

which, to be fair, is what happens most of the time

hard to predict the meta initially, and once it forms it becomes a game of wack a mole lol

[lusty grotto]

because right now, for example... why would you pick a fury warrior over (1) a rogue that has shroud, sap, blind, (2) a DH that has an unbelievably easy to perform high dps plus a CC, (3) ret which has bops, repentance, and massive reaping damage

[modern brook]

🤷 thats only if you care about equal class representation on every fight

[lusty grotto]

the problem in my example is utility right of the bat, when it comes to M+

[sand egret]

oooh good example: Ret's rise due to Wake of Ashes and that Reaping has a bunch of ghosts

[lusty grotto]

they also have utility....

[sand egret]

the fact that reaping are ghosts brought upon this

[modern brook]

Warrior is the worst m+ DPS class imo

[sand egret]

ignore that, but look at specifically this season

[lusty grotto]

but people don't ignore that

[modern brook]

but like you can argue thats balanced if they were one of the better raid dps

[lusty grotto]

meta picks are done due to utility

[sand egret]

all things constant, suddenly a ret has that much more value due to the a content decision

not a change in the class

utility is relative to the content

[lusty grotto]

right

thats why there's M+ meta and Raid Meta

[sand egret]

so balancing a meta is tough for that reason

[lusty grotto]

and raid meta is usually what Method or Limit ran

[daring marlin]

@lusty grotto don’t undersell DH

[warm plinth]

Guardians are actually a perfect example. Stampeding Roar is basically as good as it was in Legion at this point in time, but they didn't magically shoot to the top of the tank preference again, because Roar doesn't matter as much now.

[sand egret]

it's not just the classes in isolation but also your content and when you release it

[modern brook]

Roar doesnt effect the entire raid still

[daring marlin]

They have insane damage, cc, aoe stun, stupid survivability AND one of the best raid cooldowns in the game

[lusty grotto]

yeah i'm not underselling them at all

[sand egret]

DH's dont need to be sold

[lusty grotto]

i listed whatever was off the top of my head

[sand egret]

they're so many it's basically a free gift

buy one dps get one dh FREE

some guy in a trechcoat 👀 "yo, youz lookin to buy some DHses?"

[daring marlin]

top lulli

I really like Ret now too.

I’ll keep pushing Rets as legit forever!

[sand egret]

ooo I got to replace my 400 helm last night. Went from Bloodsport/Tradewinds > IF/BFI. Not a bad trade if I do say so myself!

Although, realizing that one BS was ~ a 15% increase in my IP was something I didn't really think about before..

[modern brook]

BS is sick man

super underated

[sand egret]

I never really looked hard at the numbers, tbh, since this was my first BS piece I actually was using

[true plover]

Would the Engi helm be worth losing my current one w/ BoM/DC?

[sand egret]

but going from 35k per cast to 40k was pretty interesting.

[uneven mason]

😡 get into an argument with someone because "you took way more damage on that fight than the paladin"
Have to explain that this is what happens when you expect a taunt swap that they never do

[real fossil]

Wait is a single trait of bs that strong?

[sand egret]

That's Deadly Withering?

[uneven mason]

thats only 141k a tick

no big deal

didn't die

[sand egret]

this was a 400 ilvl piece with it on and i'm 394 ilvl for perspective @real fossil

[uneven mason]

BS is very strong per stack bbunz

[sand egret]

just another moment of me going: "wow Prot traits overall are pretty solid"

[uneven mason]

mmhmm

[real fossil]

Yeah and scales linearly

[uneven mason]

But yeah didn't get a swap and missed my opportunity to solo clear stacks "because we're too close to phase"

[modern brook]

ur leaving out ur 38 leech dude

who needs a healer when stomp heals u for a fat 200 per hit

[uneven mason]

ohh yeah Leech

big stacking heals

[lusty grotto]

ye

[primal aurora]

ignore pain trait leech trait

[sand egret]

that leech did 4% of my healing in my last M+ run!

big.gainz.

[sick sentinel]

37 leech on 400, 40 leech on 415

like, give us a little bit more pls

[daring marlin]

gotem boys

now I need 38

[modern brook]

@sick sentinel 40 leech = 1% damage -> health

ie: 22k crits on stomp = 220 health PER target

[sand egret]

gainz

[modern brook]

its a lot more than it looks

3% leech for using your active mitigation is nuts

i mean not BDK levels of healing

but for how good our mitigation is

its nuts

(specifically in M+)

I mean still better options for sure

but BS is just super underrated

[real fossil]

I keep flip flopping between wanting to be an unkillable meaty boy, or a 4th dps in m+ where my healer can deal with my issues

[sand egret]

why not do both?

[modern brook]

^

Just be both

[sand egret]

have you heard of...

Bastion of Might

[modern brook]

Bastion of Big

[sand egret]

it's the answer to all your problems in M+

[lusty grotto]

Bootyclap of Mastery

[sand egret]

Got adds? Avatar

Got threat issue? Avatar

Got a DH talking shit? Avatar

[mellow bridge]

lf azerite with 5 BoM 1 DC

[modern brook]

I have a fury warrior that was talking shit during raid last night

[lusty grotto]

nah im fine with 3

[sand egret]

Got an AFK Healer? Avatar

[modern brook]

"can anyone contest me as king of trash"

this fucking guy

[lusty grotto]

"excuse me sir, bootyclapping through"

[mellow bridge]

my group has learned to put respect on my name

[modern brook]

^

[lusty grotto]

murespectyuu?

[modern brook]

I out trashed him by like 5k

[mellow bridge]

last ID ML 2nd reaping wave

had like 110k dps

dps at like 80

Pog

[lusty grotto]

hey bull, you raid with your guild right?

or was it pugs

[oblique garnet]

damn grong is spicy fight on mythic

so much damage

[modern brook]

i raid w/ my guild

[lusty grotto]

ya 100k is easy with reap

[modern brook]

for better or worse

I dont really like raiding tbh

i sorta miss being able to just pug for gear and not having to commit

[sick sentinel]

blade I know

I just wish it was more 😛

[lusty grotto]

i wish i had a guild bull

[modern brook]

on the other hand its nice being able to down bosses sometimes

[sick sentinel]

I have 4.2% leech with my prot gear

[lusty grotto]

but i dont wanna leave arthas

[modern brook]

@lusty grotto what server

oh

[sick sentinel]

and that's like 7% of my healing

[modern brook]

rekt

[lusty grotto]

has been my server since vanilla

[mellow bridge]

I finally found a decent raiding guild

[lusty grotto]

though i was ally back then

[mellow bridge]

cba to raid in Uldir but looking forward to BoD now

[modern brook]

just make a thrall character i can vouch you into my spot

[mellow bridge]

got 6/9 hc and 1 myth down in 2 evenings so not too bad for the first ID of raiding

[lusty grotto]

we swapped from MG to BDF halfway but came back, and i really dont wanna spend money to transfer for raiding

[uneven mason]

Do both parts of Moment of Glory stack?

[lusty grotto]

raids were over after NH for me

i don't miss raid leading though

[sand egret]

im telling ya, we just trojan horse a guild. I'll go in, fail gloriously, then in comes Nim to save the day and bam

you good

[lusty grotto]

rofl

nah man

[sand egret]

i get kicked

you get a spot

we gucci

[modern brook]

#protection strats

[lusty grotto]

haha

[sand egret]

aka

The "Tank Swap"

[modern brook]

@lusty grotto whats your IO this season?

[lusty grotto]

its too low for now

[modern brook]

😠

[lusty grotto]

800? idk

[modern brook]

we need a consistent tank for our group

if u wanna pretend to be in my guild for keys

[mellow bridge]

NA I assume?

[lusty grotto]

788

[sand egret]

lol like a fake family

[modern brook]

IDK how ur key situation is

yeah na

[oblique garnet]

na LUL

[lusty grotto]

i gotta run this week though

[modern brook]

Late dont make fun of me 😠

[mellow bridge]

meh

[lusty grotto]

can probably get 1k easy this week

[mellow bridge]

I'm always up for keys but I'm eu gg

[modern brook]

rekt

[sand egret]

i haven't even looked at mine this season. I've literally only done like the same 4 dungeons

[lusty grotto]

just need to actually log in lol

[sand egret]

it's gotta be brutal

[mellow bridge]

cba to grind rio this week honestly

what are the affixes next week?

[modern brook]

This week is super ez to pug as warrior imo

[sand egret]

yucky

this week is the move

[modern brook]

every other tank is afraid of it

[sand egret]

next is like sang/necro or some shit

[lusty grotto]

are you dragonblight blade

[modern brook]

so many ➕ ⚔ ⚔ ⚔ groups

[sand egret]

yar yar

[mellow bridge]

I'm not afraid as in not doable or w/e but high keys are so hard to time with them

all 3 affixes just cost so much time especially in combination

[modern brook]

agreed

[lusty grotto]

i mean on the weekend, my bro comes back from medical internship so i can actually run with people i know

should be easy to get 1k by monday

[oblique garnet]

nim ill move to na just for you baby ❤

[lusty grotto]

❤

[mellow bridge]

yuck

[modern brook]

lol u'll die from measles ina week

[oblique garnet]

? im vaccinated

[modern brook]

😠

[sand egret]

dunno if you'll get invites with that attitude...

[modern brook]

I was just making a USA joke :^(

[sand egret]

and i was following up on it

woosh

[modern brook]

🐒

[lusty grotto]

@mellow bridge that's the thing, not a lot of people are timing this week, so it's easy IO for those of us that can

granted, the group does have to pull its weight

but i usually only pug 1 spot (at best)

[sand egret]

people are generally pretty shook this week from what i've seen. definitely not expecting tanks to pull all the things 😃

[modern brook]

Its hard to double pull this week

[sand egret]

i was in the zone last night

[modern brook]

i dont trust DPS to pick up what i cant in the boom department

[sand egret]

i was covering like 6 orbs

it was insane

[lusty grotto]

heh

[sand egret]

just VR city

[modern brook]

ur ball handling skills are op man

[sand egret]

years and years of personal training

[modern brook]

I start getting flustered at 4

"use the big eyes plz dh"

[lusty grotto]

double pulling is okay, but caster double pull with orbs is fucking stupid

[mellow bridge]

I'm gonna do some keys at least

especially ToS

dont have a score there yet lmao

[modern brook]

This is the TOS WEEEK

[sand egret]

if you can't LoS them casters, yeah....

i was in WM

[mellow bridge]

my rio is actually looking so troll rn

[sand egret]

so it was just a sea of melee

[modern brook]

I tried to LOS the trash in Seige first boss room

5 fucking orbs spawned after i got in position

[mellow bridge]

6 timed dungeons 3 non timed 1 not done

still over 1k

..

[modern brook]

and wiped us cause none of my range took it out :^(

[sand egret]

haha yeah, in hindsight i was doing some dumb pulls...i even apologized to my group after and they were just like..."honestly that was crazy fun"

really glad they weren't super ragers

[mellow bridge]

dude I love WM as a prot

[lusty grotto]

lol

i had this boomkin last week

[mellow bridge]

If the affixes are decent, I often just pull the entire pig boss room

so fucking nice

[modern brook]

I like doing Momload as prot

[lusty grotto]

that my DH friend invited to discord

[sand egret]

i basically did that this week

[lusty grotto]

for some stupid reasojn

[modern brook]

Spell reflect gets so much value there

and anytime i can spell reflect something i feel cool

[sand egret]

whole Raal room

[lusty grotto]

this guy wouldn't stop fucking complaining

[mellow bridge]

I love ML until it gets to the third boss

[modern brook]

I do shit ML routes tbh

[sand egret]

i missed one pig, so i'm ashamed

[lusty grotto]

i was like, this is why i dont invite people to discord

[mellow bridge]

I love reflect in WM

[modern brook]

Also i dont know how it happened, but shrouding to first and shrouding first bridge in KR is the new Underrot skip

[mellow bridge]

so much value on witch and lord bosses

[modern brook]

in that no one wnats to do it "in case we wipe"

and its super triggering to me

[lusty grotto]

i almost flipped out when we told him to LoS reaps, and he was like "I have sun beam for casters".... never used it on reaps

[mellow bridge]

reflecting wasting strike for casual 200k dmg or w/e

[sand egret]

boomkins seem to be very polarizing to me...

[mellow bridge]

ngl i pref doing the bridge in KR

and shrouding the first group after 2nd boss

[modern brook]

the 1 purification construct?

[mellow bridge]

yea

same %

but a lot easier

[modern brook]

Ok thats fair

shrouding first group after 2nd is another good skip

[mellow bridge]

prolly doesnt work on teeming

[modern brook]

I dont like doing the construct cause we spec heavy into aoe

[sand egret]

you got jimmy tree tosser throwing down at 10% on sang week, or StarLord doing everyone's job.

[modern brook]

so it super slow for us

[lusty grotto]

lol yeah blade

[mellow bridge]

heavy aoe for kr tho

not that hot

[sand egret]

i swear it's a straight coinflip

[mellow bridge]

how do you guys deal with the last boss in KR on high tyrannical weaks btw

the fear is a bit of a struggle

[sand egret]

immune it

[mellow bridge]

obv immune first one, just use def cd for 2nd?

[sand egret]

and pray

[modern brook]

I immune the 2nd and 4th

[sand egret]

i pre-pop SW for the 2nd

[modern brook]

i run with a shaman that totems the first and 3rd

[mellow bridge]

4 fears?

what kinda level you running lol

[modern brook]

every other is my point :^)

[mellow bridge]

hehe

[modern brook]

WEAIT NO

SORRY

IM THINKING REZAN

[sand egret]

yeah

[mellow bridge]

ah

nah rezan fear is obv a joke

I just get spooked by KR boss hitting me in fear

[sand egret]

lol but it's usually around 2 that i see when I do him

[modern brook]

I mean we still totem first and then i rb the 2nd

[lusty grotto]

yea just los the ones you cant ber rage

[mellow bridge]

I usually use SW there but idk if there's a better way

[lusty grotto]

SW is your best bet imo

[sand egret]

and pray you don't 180 and run backwards...

[mellow bridge]

dont have a shaman i nthe grp I usually run with so that's not an option obv

[lusty grotto]

nothing else, other than maybe a healer cd

[sand egret]

so they dont beat your ass

[mellow bridge]

oh well

at least blade combo is a joke to us

[lusty grotto]

dude

[mellow bridge]

unlike for other tanks

[modern brook]

^

[lusty grotto]

i have never NOT done a 180 on that fucking boss

[mellow bridge]

yea same

[sand egret]

i ran sideways once

[lusty grotto]

every single time

[sand egret]

i was proud of my dude

[mellow bridge]

isnt 180 normal lol

[sand egret]

this makes me wonder if you can game it....

[lusty grotto]

my char decides to drop her pants and touch her toes

[mellow bridge]

hot

[modern brook]

👌

[sand egret]

i dunno, no beard on that one

[lusty grotto]

she is a single independent lady, she doesn't need that shit

[modern brook]

she tryna clap, nim

[lusty grotto]

yeah clap for sure

[modern brook]

I def had a pally tank try and BoP blade combo once

feel-baddest moment

[lusty grotto]

haha

but why

[mellow bridge]

oof

[lusty grotto]

they do fine with sotr

[modern brook]

🤷

0 damage is less than some damage man

[lusty grotto]

i mean i guess if hes mashing it like a retard

[mellow bridge]

wish I could find Paladin fun

I love their visuals

but gameplay feels like a crippled prot

[lusty grotto]

and has it on cd for some reason or used the charges on sera

[modern brook]

I'm in the same fucking boat dude

Ret looks cool

Prot looks cool

Holy has a book

whole class is a big nerd though

[lusty grotto]

holy healing is super fun though

[mellow bridge]

I even levelled a prot pala to 120

and then realized it's boring as shit

[modern brook]

mines 79

[mellow bridge]

even with some gear

only fun thing was spamming the silence shield

[modern brook]

But i stopped mostly cause i got omega tilted from trying to heal dungeons

U ever try and heal a lvl60 bdk that wont use marrow strike?

[lusty grotto]

hoho man

hohoho

i totally understand

[modern brook]

I've wisped so many warriros "plz use shield block"

but they ignored my pain :/

[neon tangle]

Wait what were they pressing

The BDK

[modern brook]

literally nothing

just heart strike -> heal when they scraped enough fucking rp together

and its not like 1 guy

like maybe 4-5 dungeons were bdks not putting up bone shields

its a consistent problem

[neon tangle]

Weird af

At least DS does a lot of damage

So they’re using their primary AM

[modern brook]

🤷

side story aside; paladins are dumb

prot warrior, now theres a class

[mellow bridge]

hell yea

talk to me about warrior baby

it turns me on

[undone sun]

🤔

[modern brook]

[oblique garnet]

13k ST damage almost a dps babyy

[modern brook]

ur basically assassination w/o poisons now

I blow at ST DPS

[neon tangle]

I miss doing damage

I have a bunch of 95+ parses in BoD, they’re all like 8k

[mellow bridge]

what class?

[neon tangle]

BDK

[mellow bridge]

yeet

[oblique garnet]

lul dk

[merry cave]

Doesn't St dps depend on having the right traits?

[neon tangle]

For DK or warrior?

[oblique garnet]

i dont even have st traits

[steady fiber]

LoL guys just was in king rest 10+ got the ring 410 socket haste/vers 😄

Friends starts asking me how mutch u payed for blizz to get the items 😄

[sick sentinel]

I'm turning into Lord of the Rings 🤔 All 400 ilvl

[steady fiber]

btw that is the ring

[daring marlin]

hey buddy

grats lol

[steady fiber]

Ye ty 😄

[oblique garnet]

PogChamp i can get my last 415 bis azerite next week and im set for prot

[sand egret]

much pog

[daring marlin]

@oblique garnet wat

[oblique garnet]

yeah

i got the chest from champions

and i have enough azerite to buy helm

already have bis shoulders 😃

[ocean acorn]

what are bis for prot

[strong forum]

finally got rid of my 385 weapon :^)

[ocean acorn]

jelly

[orchid sand]

Reforged to BoM x3 DCx1 OMG!

[daring marlin]

yes

your IPs and damage will skyrocket

My IPs are capped at 91k during avatar

[wraith hemlock]

Brace for impact and bastion vs brace + bloodsport... which one?

err raidwise

[primal aurora]

Shield block aint even on my bars

[upbeat fractal]

😮

[ornate magnet]

Guys know any high key streamers?

Prot warr of course.

[warm plinth]

@ornate magnet Sense streams keys all the time, and VoDs his runs.

So even if you don't catch him streaming, you can go back and watch.

[ornate magnet]

Thanks! I’ll check him out.

[strong forum]

tbh id take 415 over BoM any day

cuz i could run with 400ilvl bom instead of 415 bfi and blightborne

[daring marlin]

But what if you have 415 BoM

[strong forum]

i dont

[daring marlin]

😛

[strong forum]

cant wait to get chest from 1st boss

[last mason]

does anyone take barrage on the engi helm, or is relational better

[strong forum]

RNG is best

i tested all of em

[tired cove]

herudra styreams high keys also

[daring marlin]

I need that chest bad

[strong forum]

the bombs are nice

[daring marlin]

I felt like such a mong this week

[strong forum]

but RNG is so much better

[last mason]

bombs seem like even more big dick aoe lol

[daring marlin]

I pugged the boss and didn’t have coins

[strong forum]

bombs is like 700k per dungeon

[daring marlin]

feelsgoodman

[last mason]

what percent is that

[strong forum]

3%

2-3%

[last mason]

oh thats not as good as i thought it would be honestly

[strong forum]

eh maybe less

actually

[daring marlin]

I’d roll with the stat boost tbh

YUGE

[strong forum]

RNG is huge

800 mainstat or 1k haste

yes please

and very good uptime

[last mason]

it procs a lot?

[daring marlin]

Sure feels like it does.

[neon tangle]

@last mason on my BDK the barrage sims higher

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rangxnH4F2R1Yu23UsW8Dy

[daring marlin]

bdk sims

o m e g a

[neon tangle]

(baseline is with synaptic)

[daring marlin]

sadbox stop it

stahp

[neon tangle]

I love you too guil

[daring marlin]

gladbox

[neon tangle]

why do we have to bicker like this