ohh
#protection
drowsy relic
prisma parcel
As prot you have nothing to mitigate bleed
You absolutely die tanking with a bleed
primal crypt
What was it, 133k a tick
tropic star
running mythic gridrunner and then a uldir chest both 385, but worth it to swap to 2 370 Bom for that dps then?
primal crypt
Yikes
primal crypt
Every tank
stark sage
its designed that way
primal crypt
Gets destroyed by bleeds
oblique garnet
@tropic star only if you feel like you dont need the defensive values
primal crypt
^
prisma parcel
They sure do
drowsy relic
whats the procs per min with the alchemt trinket?
primal crypt
If you have no problem living @tropic star, try out the BoM
tropic star
i mean im a warrior. The only time i have trouble in M+ is raging fortuified and my melee dps sit on their kicks
primal crypt
@drowsy relic 1ppm
tropic star
raging fortified casters i should specify
tropic star
when youve kick/reflected/stun/stun/fear/kick and none of your melee try and interrupt once
prisma parcel
That's kite time
drowsy relic
ez just play with two boomys
tropic star
then they all say warriors are paper tanks when you eat 2x 120k bolts
oblique garnet
yeah
prisma parcel
We were doing 10 mobs at a time at that part and after avatar wore off I just walked away forever
tropic star
rock lances are usually spaced enough that they arent a huge problem. the damned casters in SotS that just spam are what get me
oblique garnet
Water blast
primal crypt
that damn elemental man
prisma parcel
Though*
primal crypt
Slams you to nothingness
primal crypt
I dont kite much either
oblique garnet
or when someone creates a demon with bolstering
stark sage
kinda depends on how shitty your dps are
keen galleon
I've been trying to decide on professions for next tier, I'm leaning toward engineering then either alchemist for the stone or jeweler for the 415 socketed rings. I notice you guys seem to think the trinket is strong though?
primal crypt
Heroic throw feels pretty bad you know?
sand egret
whats kiting?
primal crypt
@keen galleon it's not bad, but alchemy also brings 2 hr flasks
oblique garnet
its the thing that you have to do when you have 40 stacks of necrotic and no boomkin @sand egret
primal crypt
And procs on flasks/pots
prisma parcel
Definitely feels bad to kite but losing a 10+ mob pull to stubbornness is really dumb
sand egret
oh you mean the free str buff Late?
tropic star
but yeah..so BoMx2 the damage gains are way better than ilvl then?
sand egret
feee str buff week was great
oblique garnet
Well yeah 2x BoM is roughly 2k overall dps increase
Over 1 Archive 1 DC and 1 BFI
tropic star
like overall dmg on the key?
oblique garnet
Yes
keen galleon
I have an alchemist to craft with and 2hr flasks just saves money, trying to optimize gear
primal crypt
10 bolster peacekeeper right at the start of ML
tropic star
thats kind of nuts
primal crypt
totally my fault too
@keen galleon might be better off with other stuff then
The alche trinket won't last long
keen galleon
What makes BoM so strong? Mastery doesn't seem like a strong offensive stat?
chilly brook
It’s not really that crazy that 2x BoM gives that much extra DPS
oblique garnet
mastery gives alot of AP
chilly brook
Mastery is a very strong offensive stat
primal crypt
^
chilly brook
It’s raw AP
keen galleon
Huh. Okay.
drowsy relic
Yeah it’s bis on all healers, most ranks and some dps
tropic star
yeah but 2k over a whole dungeon is like 15% more damage
chilly brook
And it’s during your highest burst window
sand egret
Mastery gives AP and raises your crit block chance
primal crypt
Espcially as we get into higher ilvls
drowsy relic
It’s a bs trinket
chilly brook
I mean it’s well over a 1k boost to mastery iirc and it’s during your burst window
It makes sense
sand egret
BoM x2 for me gives about 14% increase in AP
primal crypt
Even higher if you have the trinket that @oblique garnet has
drowsy relic
Hmm how does that translate? 14% AP = 14%dps higher dps in pulls?
keen galleon
Avatar has about a 35-40% uptime and with booming voice it's a pretty significant burst window
oblique garnet
2k mastery + 1.5k haste during avatar feels pretty good
sand egret
also means bigger IPs
sand egret
and it compounds as Avatar scales damage by 20%
chilly brook
All of our damage as prot is pretty stacked in favor of avatar windows in the first place
sand egret
block and clap
primal crypt
Everyone in here has an affinity for cheeks, clap them all day
chilly brook
I have more of an affinity for another area but you know cheeks ain't bad either
xD
sand egret
i like to think that the extra damage we get via Avatar burst on pulls is similar to reducing mob hp relative to it
chilly brook
In all honesty it basically is
uneven mason
"Dead Mobs can't hurt me" and "Protection Warrior Utility"
sand egret
so while kinda meme-y, in that sense its easier to see raw dps as a form of utility
lusty grotto
sure
chilly brook
It's not really memey people just like to discount tank DPS
lusty grotto
i do have a problem with damage being seen as utility though. For tanks i guess it's fine, but the rest of the classes are kinda fucked in that regard.
chilly brook
BLUF is it's less work for your DPS and everything dies faster
tropic star
how do you discount tank dps when prot warriors regularly beat people
uneven mason
tropic star
i generally top pugs, only time im last is when i run with my raid teams and then im usualyl on the next guys balls
keen galleon
We are a ton of fun/damage in m+
uneven mason
and the fucker always beats me
keen galleon
Controlling casters is super annoying tho
uneven mason
He's just that good
keen galleon
I would give ANYTHING for grip or a ranged interrupt
tropic star
theres tons of trash pulls in Uldir where i top them. best is the first trash pull in zek room
keen galleon
LOL
lusty grotto
ez mac
sand egret
well DHs also have an absurd avatar window
uneven mason
Oh I tried to kill him
stark sage
@lusty grotto i dont think any of the dps classes really get more dps as part of their utility budget. if anything its how much aoe/burst/cleave that gets shuffled around and counted into the budget
lusty grotto
that's my problem with that in principle
tropic star
@keen galleon the only thing you have to give up to get that is playing warrior
lusty grotto
because blizzard clearly wants to make dmg utility for us and for tanks
keen galleon
I mean I have a 383 blood dk.
chilly brook
speaking of meme DPS and pulls https://clips.twitch.tv/GracefulScaryRavenTwitchRPG xD
keen galleon
My 365 war feels better in every way except grip
uneven mason
@keen galleon You can have grip but it comes at the cost of playing a tank that feels like they're made from wet cardboard compared to a warrior
lusty grotto
but then dps will go... HOL UP GUSY
sand egret
i doubt its intentional nim, it is a by product of our current state
uneven mason
I mean, I like my BDK, but damn do I feel squishy compared to my warrior/druid
but that grip
lusty grotto
by all means it should be intentional, otherwise it will throw M+ balance out of whack again for us
sand egret
like ive said before, i expect it to be clipped and we get more “real” utility
lusty grotto
LOL
uneven mason
I wouldn't expect more utility
lusty grotto
warriors having utility?
lusty grotto
we had utility for a total of 1 expansion
uneven mason
I'm comfortable with being the "My utility is killing things"
primal crypt
Yeah, even a slow would be appreciated
lusty grotto
and that was a miracle
primal crypt
Even paladin conc stays in place
Our TC just stays on us
Why cant I throw my thunder claps
uneven mason
I mean
lusty grotto
i'm 100% gonna cancel
sand egret
pretty narrow view, imho. i expect as it always happens a talent refresh in the future
primal crypt
Like, let me thunder clap ranged
sand egret
as such, they will need to change it
primal crypt
Call me thor
uneven mason
spec CT
stark sage
@primal crypt storm bolt also thunderclaps around the target 😂
lusty grotto
(not that they will)
uneven mason
you can TC mobs outside of melee range
primal crypt
Lmaoooo @stark sage
uneven mason
literally all we need is a trait that makes TC a 90% Snare
lusty grotto
then the Thor memes will begin
uneven mason
and we can kite for days while topping DPS charts
chilly brook
CT has some use imo
lusty grotto
i mean Thorim of course
primal crypt
Or give me the TC pvp talent
uneven mason
CT is amazing
lusty grotto
dont sue me Disney
sand egret
curious, how many other classes have 40% + of their damage weighted to one ability
chilly brook
Just simply because you can clap outside of melee
uneven mason
most of them Blade
stark sage
@sand egret a lot
sand egret
like?
lusty grotto
Eye Beam 🤔
stark sage
destro/feral iirc/ DH/ret
uneven mason
he said 40%
not 99%
stark sage
just to name a few
uneven mason
gosh Nim
chilly brook
Aren't most of the classes since post Legion mainly one ability with the second highest usually being their actually autos
lusty grotto
oh sorry
sand egret
on ST and cleave?
lusty grotto
i should check logs, but Glacial Spike is a huge amount of % for my fros tmage
uneven mason
Generally most classes are "build to X, use X - repeat" (x does all your damage)
elemental shamans are a lot smoother on spread now
lusty grotto
literally the whole rotation is around building lances to get GS up
uneven mason
but for a long whiel they were like 60% Lavaburst
stark sage
yeah
lusty grotto
GS + Brain Freeze, is a 90K nuke
chilly brook
guys I'm hype af rn
stark sage
id say like around a third of the classes build up for one ability to be ~40% of their dps
primal crypt
Lmao
chilly brook
just bought smash and the fighter pass
primal crypt
Build your melee
lusty grotto
i didnt buy the fighters pass
primal crypt
For more melee
chilly brook
I got $20 in amazon gift cards so the fighters pass is like $5 for me
stark sage
all about that richtor
chilly brook
Bro
lusty grotto
no luigi, no mewtwo, feelsbadman
i could do it the easy way but i'd rather just do the spirits story mode thingie
stark sage
get out
primal crypt
out
lusty grotto
hope he gets nerfed asap
chilly brook
I'm actually joking
lusty grotto
bro
chilly brook
tbh Snake looks dope
lusty grotto
k rool is fucking broken 😦
chilly brook
His ranging game is nutty from what I've seen
dense flame
Pk fire spam?!?!?
chilly brook
nades everywhere
dense flame
Mewtwo imo is probably cheapest character
uneven mason
in #protection
steel mauve
Just counter him with the secretary
uneven mason
Get that shit to the paladin discord where it belongs
sand egret
hmm
sand egret
so far on wclogs i haven't found a parse with >40%
lusty grotto
FUCKING ISABELLE
uneven mason
40% wat?
lusty grotto
broken as well imo
uneven mason
oh class with DPS loading
sand egret
HDH's looking at around 15-16% as top end with death sweep
uneven mason
who logs trash
chilly brook
obv the best fighter is Wii Fit Trainer
lusty grotto
consider though that the fact that their % is smaller is because these abilities have conditions or longer CDs, longer than Tclap and especially longer than Tclap with Avatar
uneven mason
I mean, what fight has so much AE that you can even compare it?
sand egret
that % is smaller because they have other equally impactful abilities
uneven mason
TC isn't 40% of our damage single target
chilly brook
~30%
sand egret
it's up there
chilly brook
Looked through my logs and it's about 30% ST
stark sage
TC is ~30-35 on single target
sand egret
that's perty hihg
stark sage
yeah and other specs are just as high
destruction CB is 35-40
balance starsurge is ~35 as well
uneven mason
I mean it does come down to that TC has several multiplicative buffs to it
which isn't really mirrored in a lot of other classes
sand egret
...
stark sage
arms MS if you include the deep wounds component to it is nearly 50%
sand egret
that's literally my point
uneven mason
I'd rather have TC
sand egret
finding an arcane mage log is tough lol
sand egret
woof at the 70% parse
stark sage
well its a meme run to get their DH a max parse
sand egret
but yeah, that is a huge %
stark sage
just pulling random logs
sand egret
argument is tho, that the spec itself is structured around those abilities
CBolt, ABlast, Pyro
stark sage
and prot is pretty structured around TC
sand egret
with our talent build, that we have to take as the rest are trash, yes
talents aside, SS is our keystone ability
not TClap
stark sage
so it would make sense that TC is a huge part of our dps
well once upon a time, yes SS was a massive part of our dps
and not TC
sand egret
my point is, that if they ever want to adjust talents they will always have to compete with this massive scaling fiesta that we can attain
so, from a design pov
lusty grotto
you'd have to compare AOE situations blade
sand egret
rebalancing our damage elsewhere opens up more possibilities
stark sage
well an elegant change would be to nerf down the ST power of the TC build, and increase the power of the SS build
so you can talent for aoe or st dps
sand egret
that's what i'm getting at
stark sage
but its not really a problem
having dead talents is the bigger issue
not TC's relation to SS
sand egret
well dead talents are comparative
primal crypt
Alllll dayyyyy
sand egret
a talent is "dead" if there is no reason to take it because another talent is better
stark sage
sure
sand egret
when you have UF giving such insane returns
primal crypt
Who doesn't want 50%party
sand egret
even if Best Served Cold like tripled in value it prob couldnt compete
that to me, is a problem with the TClap synerg we have no
now*
stark sage
atleast the best talent combo is the most interesting one imo
sand egret
yep and I think the next move is going after the "dead" talents and in the process we will see TClaps impact offloaded out of talents
base TCLap buffed, UF nerfed
primal crypt
I want reflective plating back plz
stark sage
we can speculate class changes all day, it doesnt really matter
the bottom line, prot's dps is above average
so it could be nerfed
and no one should be surprised
our utility is lacking so that could be buffed
again with no surprise
sand egret
yep, totally agree. I just like speculating
time to finally open this damn weekly cache
annd a 380 ring 😦
crystal creek
I got a haste/vers/speed/socket ring. Still 380 but coulda been worse.
cold owl
keen galleon
Omg how can you go a full day without checking the box
sand egret
wasnt home
keen galleon
I would die
warm plinth
I handle that in a really good way. I just don't have boxes.
uneven mason
Log on warrior - open box, scrap whatever garbage I get, do my 12 (or whatever key I get) log on alts for the rest of the week
ahh its like WOD all over again
warm plinth
@uneven mason I protested my girlfriend's insistence that Die Hard is not a Christmas movie by bingewatching the first 3 yesterday.
keen galleon
I got a 380 weapon from my box
uneven mason
"Log on - set up mythic raid cache mission, log on to another alt - repeat 12 times, go play L4D2"
keen galleon
Can't complaun
uneven mason
was remembering WoD
sand egret
i almost had a massive wtf moment there...
crystal creek
Ya I was about to get extra salty.
sand egret
oh word?
uneven mason
so far I've gotten a green leather belt
crystal creek
lol
uneven mason
a green plate belt
sand egret
sounds about right
crystal creek
Got residuum last week, haven't done this week yet
uneven mason
(that I already had the Xmog) and some azerite
sand egret
i should go do that
crystal creek
think i got 25..
sand egret
i haven't done it yet tbh
uneven mason
Golly that 9 drops of "don't give a fuck" went al ong way toward the 3500 I'm going to need on an actual usable piece
warm plinth
Is there any reason to do mythic expeditions besides farming AP?
sand egret
¯_(ツ)_/¯
uneven mason
answered your own question
crystal creek
screw your group and try to fish off the coast.
uneven mason
I mean, thepets/Xmog are not selling for shit on Turalyon
warm plinth
So it's literally dead content unless you're doing early progress then? 🤢
uneven mason
not even
its literally just do your 4 heroics
in the same amount of time it takes todo 1 mythic
as prot I can single pull half the island and 👢 🍵 👏 it down
warm plinth
And with the added bonus of being able to use group finder for it.
uneven mason
^^
even if you havea set group
just do heroics
they're faster
you'll get more rewards
I'd almost say to get the achievements
but even that
isn't worth it
"content without real rewards"
I'm like one of the most grindy grinders out there, and if I feel content has no purpose, chances are, it really doesn't
warm plinth
Didn't they learn that scenarios were shit content the last time they implemented them? 😏
uneven mason
I liked scenarios ONCE
sand egret
this is totally diff
uneven mason
this isn't even that
Scenarios at least had like a little "Story" to go with it
so I liked that
this is literally "FUCKING MOBS RARRRRHHHHGGGG"
warm plinth
Yeah, scenarios were fun the first time.
uneven mason
its a barrel of fish
keen galleon
I still think island expeditions and warfronts are both tech demos for better future content
strange lintel
is the only azerithe equipment that gives you double digits of recidue the 370+ ones?
sand egret
this let down was the fact that they created a pseduo-regenerative content system....and literally didn't incentivize it in anyway (as well as messing up how they generate shit)
warm plinth
When they put me in the expedition the first time and I noticed there were no instructions, I was like wait, so I literally just pretend this is a kill 40 raptors quest and just kill everything?
uneven mason
@keen galleon I thought that bout Garrison's and Scenario's too
keen galleon
Dammit. You may have a point mac. Sigh.
sand egret
as someone who does system design on the daily like this, it's the one HUGE headshaker I have with BfA
uneven mason
Blizzard proved me horrifyingly wrong with Class halls and "nothing"
sand egret
it's the perfect foil to M+ and t hey totally dropped the ball
strange lintel
i enjoyed class halls tho
keen galleon
OK hang on I'm at work don't make me cry here mac
strange lintel
also i miss class gear
uneven mason
^^
strange lintel
like class specific details
warm plinth
Class halls were neat but it wasn't like...lasting neat. It was like oh this is cool (the first few times). The rest of the time I was like meh why do I have to go to this place to do this when I could easily do it from an interface menu.
strange lintel
i wouldnt even give a fuck about azerithe gear if we had a " warrior related transmog "
keen galleon
Wait hang on didn't you guys get to literally ground slam off your class hall to anywhere on the continent????
warm plinth
Does the raid gear not all fit an appearance set?
uneven mason
Yeah
keen galleon
How the fuck did that get old
warm plinth
Like does the plate armor all go together that drops in each difficulty
strange lintel
bfa feels like alpha legion tbh. missing polish and such
uneven mason
- Because in beta you could do it ANYWHERE
warm plinth
@keen galleon That was actually the coolest fucking thing ever. But now it's gone and I'm bitter.
strange lintel
unlike in legion and before
uneven mason
- The teleport was a fringe benefit to a horribly written garish golden piss pot of bad writing
strange lintel
each class had a distinct color and design
keen galleon
I never got to do it sooooo
uneven mason
I hated the warrior class storyline
warm plinth
Leaping from Skyhold felt so badass. At least, once they fixed it from randomly dropping you on a hillside in Azsuna 😂
strange lintel
in legion?
uneven mason
because Odyn is a dumpsterfire of bad writing
keen galleon
Ahahahahaha
crystal creek
I like our Skyhold teleporters though.
lusty grotto
did they use 1 fist or 2?
uneven mason
"dude hides in the clouds for 15,000 years, wants me to prove my worth after shit talking every thing that I stand for"
lusty grotto
i need details
strange lintel
but i would have preffered someone like i dunno broxingar or grom or lothar
warm plinth
I did HoV to help the gf do a quest the other day, and at the end (for the millionth time), I'm just thinking why the fuck we even fight Odyn in that dungeon. Like bro, you gave me the shield before that shmuck came up and tried to take it, but NOW I have to fight you for it?
strange lintel
literally nobody in that hall was know for ...like anything
uneven mason
Yeah I Kind've wanted a real warriors heaven not "hey we have gold people, and there is a 5x5 figting pit in the basement"
strange lintel
there was that vyrkull we killed in like wotlk
sand egret
broxxxxx
uneven mason
I wanted a free for all, with all the storylines involving dueling the legendary warriors
sand egret
❤
lusty grotto
why the fuck is Lorde playing on my daily mix
uneven mason
Well
lusty grotto
alright, who hijacked my spotify account
crystal creek
Ya I want to go a couple rounds with Wrynn
sand egret
my bad
lusty grotto
fuck i knew it
strange lintel
" we usually accept only vrykul here but like well make an exception cuz YOURE SO FUCKING AWESOME ALSO HERES ONE OF OUR RARES TREASURES CUZ YOURE SO AWESOME
"
- the warrior legion class hall lore *
crystal creek
^ thank you, I boosted.
crystal creek
Clearly i've earned your treasures.
keen galleon
That's important
strange lintel
" you cna jump to anywere from here btw > cuz the earth is flat and fuck logic "
warm plinth
If Sargeras hadn't stabbed Azeroth, we would've pushed the bitch out of orbit with all the leap slamming after a while.
strange lintel
flatearthersunite
sand egret
yeah, honestly my warrior's quads were in the best shape of his life in Legion
it was always leg day
3x HL shoulders
jumping to skyhold
crystal creek
that reminds me to make my way to Nelth's Vault.
sand egret
dude was yo
light relic
Hey guys why can't I sim my prot gear on raidbots?
spec(Protection Warrior) is currently not supported.
sand egret
cuz it aint
vague crown
how many ilvls is a socket worth for prot?
drowsy relic
Probs 5
old zephyr
I wouldn't swap Ilvl for socket on something that is not a ring/trniket, Armor is life
drowsy relic
hmm yeah sounds about right
keen galleon
I would consider 5 ilevels vs socket for something w a low stat budget. Cloak, maybe gloves/boots. Particularly if the lower ilevel piece had haste and the higher didn't
But I'm also an unreasonable whore for haste and know it's not optimal
supple path
Not sure exactly how much to weight armor, but from a sheer other stat PoV sockets tend to be worth 10-20 ilvls depending on slot
So I'd guess 5 is generally gonna be worth it in almost all cases.
With it being 'more worth it' for the lower statted items as Zaeron says.
keen galleon
I believe that the "correct answer" is all our secondaries are very competitive, and str and armor are both very valuable, so ilevel is king nearly always
But since we don't have a sim profile a lot of shit is feelycraft
Not real information
And as such I choose to value haste heavily because fuck gcds
open bluff
str = armor and stamina on top of the armor from ilvl, not sure how that causes ilvl to be "feelycraft"
besides i'm sure there's math floating around in the TC channels to show how close secondaries are, so just because prot doesn't have a sim profile that doesn't mean you can just outright dismiss information
any stat weights generated from simc/raidbots would be for dps anyway for 99% of users
uneven mason
can't really sim defensively
open bluff
you can, it's just not recommended for most people because it requires knowing what you're doing with simcraft and even then any stat weights generated would only be valid for that specific profile
which is why i said 99% of users would only get dps weights
sand egret
🤔 kinda sounds like "cant really" to me
prisma crane
also requires the sim to have the backend for prot warriors
light relic
any tips on how to sim to get more insight?
open bluff
step 1: build the prot warrior backend
step 2: implement it into simc so everyone can use it
step 3: run the sim
astral crystal
Step 4: Awesome pics. Great size. Look thick. Solid. Tight. Keep us all posted on your continued progress with any new progress pics or vid clips. Show us what you got man. Wanna see how freakin' huge, solid, thick and tight you can get. Thanks for the motivation.
lusty grotto
yup
there's stat information here #268491842637660160 btw on stat values
so definitely not "feelycraft"
oblique garnet
PogU keys with Drjay
lusty grotto
here you go: https://goo.gl/oguKzo
keen galleon
@open bluff it's feelycraft because we have no way to actually value the stats in a solid numerical way. That's what a sim would do, which we don't have. So we can make educated guesses, which is feelycraft imho
keen galleon
I am looking at it.
keen galleon
It's absolutely feelycraft. It makes a ton of concessions to imperfect data and "averages" and "perfect play".
keen galleon
It may be useful but it's nothing like a sim profile would give actual information.
keen galleon
You can run a sim profile and see things like your biggest spikes with a setup and things like that.
uneven mason
but you can understand what has priority for defensive weight
keen galleon
And yes, you can absolutely build a priority with that. But when someone asks the question "how many points of stamina and armor and crit is 5 haste worth" we can't answer that question
keen galleon
It's GOOD feelycraft. It's backed by data and I certainly couldn't make better, and I'll use it going forward
uneven mason
So here is the jive, tanks deal with varied situations
keen galleon
But I also recognize we can't back it up in the way a dps can say "haste is worth 1.7 points of agility vs crit being worth .9"
uneven mason
like crit is an exceptionally strong stat, its very powerful verses anything that you can parry, Over a long enough time table
but does very little reliable mitigation
thus does 0 for EHP
right, thats because DPS follow a rotation, the ddamage they do is goign to be a static
keen galleon
I promise I understand, I was reading theck's blog when he was working on tmi sti
Still*
uneven mason
all situations that they are DPSing in, is just basically that - how many targets, but their abilitys are more or less - press button do damage
hehe
lusty grotto
exactly, simming for dps is simple
number of targets, damage done, so on
even then you have averages for PPM and such
sick sentinel
Hey we had this exact same combination already
lusty grotto
crit percentages, and the like
keen galleon
Well it's not true that it does nothing for ehp. It's true that over a specific period of time it has the possibility to do nothing for ehp. Re crit
lusty grotto
yeah we did
sick sentinel
Conversation*
uneven mason
thats why it does nothing for EHP
keen galleon
That's not how ehp works.
sick sentinel
The conclusion we came to last time
You write it
I was working on it already
But I dropped it
keen galleon
I mean I'm new here so hi!
sick sentinel
Now it's melekus
I only have 1 commit or smth to prot warrior base code in simc
But prot hasn't been updated for a long time
Even then it's not hard to do
The apl = it
But the thing is, you cannot create an accurate representation of a proactive class in defensive sim
Offensive is piss easy
Reactive defensive would be less inaccurate but nowhere near accurate
Proactive defensive would be a meme
keen galleon
Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to shit talk anyone for the tools we do or don't have. I'm sorry if it came off that way.
uneven mason
*shrug Feelycrafting is what I did back in BFA beta
sick sentinel
No, but you're incorrect about its possible usage and I'm explaining why
main vault
Simming to find spikes and build priorities is super :lul:
uneven mason
feelingcrafting is literally how someothing feels not backed by any data
keen galleon
I wasn't arguing we could sim defensively.
uneven mason
😄
keen galleon
I was arguing we have no offensive sim to generate weights, and simming defensively has never been possible at all
lusty grotto
he wants stat values for pawn 🤷
sick sentinel
Weights aren't important
lusty grotto
tl;dr
lusty grotto
correct me if i'm wrong there, but that's basically it
main vault
To get weights you have to aim each piece anyways
So if you are simming every piece what is Pawn doing?
sick sentinel
Weights are an outdated technology with the advent of top gear in raidbots
And they are a technology nobody used correctly in the first place
keen galleon
Sure, fair point. But a lot of people are slow to pick up optimization
main vault
Besides not using any breakpoints and any effect interactions I.e. traits, trinkets
How hard is put on highest ilvl for optimization
That’s 98% of gearing
sick sentinel
If they're too slow to choose an easier route, I have no sympathy
I am not trying to appeal to morons, fwiw
keen galleon
I mean, right now, we don't have a sim so it's irrelevant, everything is theory and educated guesses and backwards inferences from logs.
That's how tanking has always worked.
It's just unusual for it to be true about dps as well
lusty grotto
but we already said why it's not unusual at all
rocky ledge
It shouldn’t be hard to write a super-basic Target-dummy style encounter for simming tanks. It should melee frequently, maybe have one “special” attack on a short timer, and the tank has 100% uptime on it. You then do a full DPS rotation with optimal use of rage for SB > IP and it knows to LS/SW to maintain mitigation. This sim would help people on a very basic level, but would give a good indication of single target DPS while still maintaining SB uptime.
keen galleon
The overall disagreement seems to be that I thought feelycraft included theories and educated guesses and the folks arguing seem to disagree, so I'll not call it feelycraft going forward, since I definitely didn't intend offense
main vault
And since no boss is patchwork and endless melees the data it would give would be irrelevant to any content being done
Unless you wanted to sim you hitting the raid tank dummy
sick sentinel
If it's a bad theory it's feelycraft
keen galleon
Nexii the issue is with good play standard damage patterns don't kill tanks.
rocky ledge
No, just have the tank always getting topped every sec or so. 1shots slay but the rest doesn’t matter. You can see the dmg spikes in the reports
lusty grotto
that's not stat analysis though
main vault
How is that an issue?
keen galleon
Okay but that's not how tanks die in raid or dungeons
sick sentinel
Prot doesn't survive without a healer
keen galleon
Tanks die in raids and dungeons when the damage pattern varies suddenly in a way healers can't compensate for
sick sentinel
No
main vault
No
sick sentinel
They die when everyone sucks
rocky ledge
People wanting to sim 90% of the time it is for dmg.
sick sentinel
Or has shit gear
keen galleon
You know how many of the next 10 hits you'll parry?
Raids don't vary damage patterns jesus fucking christ.
main vault
That’s why you don’t hear for parry
lusty grotto
How could you sim for Timmy the rogue standing on fire, and the healer dropping all attention on the tank to heal him?
main vault
You gear for what you know and can control
lusty grotto
lets multiply that for the amount of healers there are
rocky ledge
You don’t plan around RNG, you have your block up and if you parry, great! If not you are covered
main vault
Your tanking logic is immensely inaccurate and illogical
keen galleon
Because?
If I was wrong and you were right, everyone would sim dtps and use it as a meaningful metric
keen galleon
Instead the best tanks and theorycrafters all agree that simming tanks is imppssible
lusty grotto
which we are all in agreement of
rocky ledge
The only thing you cannot account for in raid/dung is the other people in your group doing mechanics in a way that damage you ( think quaking in m+ )
main vault
^
Literally everything else is scripted and you know what is going to hit you and when-ish
keen galleon
When was the last time you were tanking, everything went perfectly, nobody fucked up, and you just magically fell over dead?
main vault
What does that argument have to do with inventing bullshit stat weights?
rocky ledge
Tank dies? They fucked up
keen galleon
Nothing? I never said we should have stat weights.
main vault
Cause “parry”
keen galleon
I said standard damage patterns don't kill tanks, variance kills tanks
You've been arguing with me ever since
Tanks don't magically die at random, they die to edge of the bell curve events like a long string of full damage hits in combination with player error
rocky ledge
When was the last time you were tanking, everything went perfectly, nobody fucked up, and you just magically fell over dead? — the only way this happens is you don’t have the gear (m fetid in 300 gear) or you dropped mitigation during a mechanic. Aside from not having a healer in your raid, what you described should never happen.
main vault
Tanks die from player error almost exclusively
keen galleon
Ok. I'm responding to a person who said simming tanks was easy???
lusty grotto
i thought you were talking to Nexii
rocky ledge
The only thing I want to see is a sim for DPS while using rage to keep up active mitigation
rocky ledge
Zaeron you are all over the place my dude.
lusty grotto
patchwerk?
keen galleon
My bad nexii, I can't fucking read and thought you brought up the patchwork dtps sim
We agree, I just misread you.
ivory path
This whole argument. My head hurts trying to keep up... Lol
lusty grotto
tell me about it, i'm bilingual
rocky ledge
Nim single target and something multi target for Bootyclap spam. Duh.
lusty grotto
it's important
because dps does select each type
but here's the thing, dps sims assume that someone is already tanking
and that tank is pretty much immortal
rocky ledge
Correct.
keen galleon
AMR makes me cry every time it says it can sim tanks on reddit
rocky ledge
Dps simming while using Active mitigation > damage as a baseline
lusty grotto
that's the thing
rocky ledge
For rage management
lusty grotto
there are tradeoffs
highest dps would be the one that chooses to dump rage on revenge
for example
rocky ledge
I am aware. But that info is useless
lusty grotto
the fact that you're mixing defensive management into it is already making it extremely complicated
main vault
Tbf it’s about as useful as one that spends all rage defensively
keen galleon
Also the sim won't be raid relevant since our defensive uptime will be artificially low in the sim. In practice fights have downtime.
So you would need a tank swap rotation that didn't use defensive charges during downtime
main vault
You can use raid_event for downtime
rocky ledge
If you have LS and Avatar up, while tanking 6 mobs. You get to spam revenge all you want basically while still applying IP
lusty grotto
right but you get no damage bonus to SS
because there's no shield block
Bolster does not buff SS
SB does
revenge is also a spender, with a limited resource
rocky ledge
Zaeron stop. I know how real raid mechanics work. Do you guys not understand I want a simple DPS sim for weights that do factor you can’t mongo revenge spam all day without dying?
main vault
But you are trying to change what it was created for
rocky ledge
You just have to add in SB and IP usuage and it would give a decent idea of what items would be best. And you could actually sim trinkets for dmg.
keen galleon
You could get the exact same effect by telling it to only use revenge on a proc
And then you wouldn't need a whole new sim
main vault
An accurate tank dps will be more useful than an inaccurate tank dps with mitigation sim
rocky ledge
Revenge on proc or to keep you from rage capping when IP and SB are active
lusty grotto
but that's not realistic at all
might as well just assume someone else is tanking
and just dump your shit into dps
keen galleon
I love how we are arguing about edge case technicalities of the sim profile WE DON'T HAVE
rocky ledge
No nim, then you don’t get rage from being hit
lusty grotto
wut
rocky ledge
If someone else is tanking.
Thanks Zaeron. Welcome to prot where the word Sim does this in chat
Ask if prot is Viable next teir
crystal creek
If I had your name and made a monk Nim, I'd name him Nimchucks.
lusty grotto
i already have Monkchip
keen galleon
Hey guys I can't decide between <anything but a monk> and warrior. Explain to me why it doesn't matter what I pick as long as it's not druid. Again.
crystal creek
how bout a frost mage name Brrmynimples
lusty grotto
in fact, i have no fucking clue as to how you actually put that into an APL
my mage is Magechip 😦
crystal creek
Hrm.. slutty belf named Nimpho?
astral crystal
Yes it is
lusty grotto
hey nimchipadin is not slutty okay?
lusty grotto
She's a saint!
sand egret
yo i may xfer over my hunter to horde, you should carry it 😃
lusty grotto
Carahdras you need to calm down sir
crystal creek
bored at work.
keen galleon
Looking at everchill anchor.. will thunderclap and revenge count as melee abilities? Is that decided on a trinket by trinket basis? Or is there a classification system?
supple path
I just want to be able to kill totems in under an hour.
Had a KR the other week where the dps kept dying to idiocy on third boss and it turned into this eternal "how much can you dps totems as a prot warrior by yourself" race that made me really, really salty about revenge/tclap.
lusty grotto
also @keen galleon it says damaging abilities.. so if it goes by the same line as Fathoms, it might actually apply through Tclap and revenge
but idk
20% slow total means it certainly won't be used for the slow alone
and judging by the backtrack of dps trinkets they did on this next tier... i wouldn't be surrpised if they cut the ticking dmg in half
lusty grotto
oh yeah it does says damaging melee abilities
yeah they went back to legion's half effectiveness for tanks
keen galleon
I mean tbf if they don't backtrack it, fully stacked it does like 80 dps per target even at 385 ilevel
Awwww that sucks
Where can I see that
daring marlin
I missed some spicy shit
lusty grotto
not sure if it'll apply to that one though
keen galleon
I wish they would make good tank trinkets if they insist on shitting on our dps trinkets
Not like it's hard. A clicky 12-16-20% dr trinket with flat agi/str would be used by every tank in the game except monks
lusty grotto
i mean there's at least a decent tank trinket
refracting prism
the other one is a piece of shit
keen galleon
Grong also doesn't let you avoid while channeling
So kinda a soft nerf already
At least it doesn't say you can the way merektha's fang does
Gigavolt seems hilarious given that it will just get macrod into avatar
lusty grotto
yeah i mean you also couldn't with DoS
keen galleon
An extra 800 haste for half of my avatar seems real good
lusty grotto
should be up roughly for every 2nd avatar
keen galleon
Almost exactly
Can get desynced if you aren't using right on cd
But oh well
Does anyone else find themselves alternating clap/revenge in m+ during avatar?
It's so tempting to ignore shield slam if you have a revenge proc
lusty grotto
yeah except you can rage starve really fast that way
keen galleon
Yeah usually I only do it if I have last stand available
lusty grotto
yeah but rip AM
keen galleon
True but dungeons aren't swimming in huge pulls w am checks
lusty grotto
i usually revenge if im 70 over
keen galleon
And if you're st shield slam is better than revenge anyway
quiet crane
native forum
Is into the fray talent default or is there a particular haste point that maybe on single target punish would be better?
warm plinth
Punish would be better if you always had just you and the boss in range (which is basically never). Remember that ITF works by having allies close by as well, not just enemies.
native forum
Right, so there isn't a set amount of haste that would make us switch to punish
warm plinth
Nope.
daring marlin
no manki rage for prot
warm plinth
Why can't I use my special Nitro emojis in here D:
daring marlin
because marok is the fun sheriff
warm plinth
Oh so it's just turned off in this server?
Someone should make an animated emoji for Skyhold that has the Ravager animation, but then the axe or whatever that spins shoots through the air into a trash can.
summer kestrel
weird question
anyone know how to hide the raid icon put on yourself?
meaning, I don't want to see my own icon above my head
primal crypt
probably a script
@summer kestrel Well it is now 2018 and I've had to play follow the square for over a decade. I would dearly love to not have to see markers over my 3D avatar, I have enough to deal with as a tank without worrying if I can see myself.
A simple solution would be to allow add ons to modify - UI-RaidTargetingIcons.blp An alternative to this would be to add interface options such as,
Show all raid marks.
Show all marks on name plates only.
Hide personal raid marks.
Scale raid markers 0-100% (100% being original size etc)
Show no raid marks.
It is not just from players the marks come, some addons forcibly mark targets.
From a personal point I have to play with the square pretty much all the time, as my partner's eye sight is not great, so the marks help her keep track of me, when /follow is not an option.
So I would wholeheartedly agree, choice to be see or not to see is the request.
Thanks.
just found that post
guess there isn't a way
it's forced on the tank
sick sentinel
I could imagine if you dig deep enough in add-ons darker layers u will find an addon that does whatever u need to remove the icon from ur client side
summer kestrel
ouch
sick sentinel
My mouse over tooltip addon i use right now only has just over 10k downloads
and that was just looking for the right one, that worked
and is updated
Too tired to edit, had to clean up my mess after getting this just now
oblique garnet
Jesus doing keys with mdi players is fucking stressful
sick sentinel
Why?
oblique garnet
The pulls they do
sick sentinel
Not used to it, or dont like it?
oblique garnet
Are completely different than i am normally used to
main vault
Cause they do real ones and not pleb ones like us
sick sentinel
what level were u doing
main vault
:lul:
oblique garnet
Just 16s and 17s
sick sentinel
did u 2 chest them?
oblique garnet
No
sick sentinel
Because if not, thats fucking a waste of time
sick sentinel
Oh jesus, u had to carry him?
oblique garnet
?
sick sentinel
Might as well be the same 2
primal crypt
... wat
oblique garnet
The other is rank 1 player
primal crypt
totally polar opposites lmao
chilly brook
Don’t hate on asmon
primal crypt
I'm so confused right now
sick sentinel
Dont worry
primal crypt
on whether or not you think they're the same person
oblique garnet
But it was fun actually do keys where you dont have to do anything besides tank
main vault
Tbf War memed the first 3 months of the xpac
sick sentinel
Im just happy i got an UR +13 done
now i need KR +13
and i almost timed a +14 but my healer kept wall hugging and i died to bleeds after 2nd boss
main vault
I just ran a Temple where I was top dps on first 2 bosses
sick sentinel
I will say, even with bolster, the golden room/mini boss room was much easier to deal with this week than any other
sick sentinel
I would not be shocked if it was WA
main vault
I know like jdot uses it
potent anvil
Its a weakaura. There should be one on wago.
main vault
ok thx
hollow zephyr
i have 1 BoM, another piece has BoM or Swirling Sands. what's more valuable? a second BoM or 1 Swirling?
oblique garnet
BoM
hollow zephyr
what's the general stat pref for m+?
torpid flame
Is rasdunk's big red button good for tanking? Heard it was
lucid kelp
finally seeing Upgrades for tanking. 385 deafening crash shoulders.
ancient reef
I got my second bom
main vault
Yeah that was long ago lol
rocky ledge
Didn’t realize chat was so dead.
wise sun
Are there any dungeons that are extra bad for protection warrior? I know protection does well when most of the damage is physical/blockable but I don't really know which dungeons those are
wise sun
Otherwise we're mid tier?
wise sun
I have a DK and prot geared up, just trying to figure out which one to run for which dungeons. Thanks for the help
sand egret
both have strengths
main vault
DK is a bit ahead still
sand egret
pick which one you like to play more
main vault
But 18% less EHP isnt small
sand egret
or both. it's not like there are unbeatable places
main vault
If you have to ask, both will play equal for you
neon tangle
It’s more like 8%
main vault
It really is 18%
neon tangle
That was a wrong number, go check the DK discord pins
main vault
Ive done the spreadsheet and know how much it is
wise sun
Yeah im only doing like +12-13 with the goal of 15s, so I imagine at that point both specs would be fine
neon tangle
Please share then, it was 8.2% EHP for me at 383 ilvl
main vault
And whether its 8, 18, or 5 for him, its still not a small number
warm plinth
The DK EHP loss would depend on your personal stats. There's a calculator in the pins in Acherus iirc @main vault @neon tangle
main vault
Literally what we were just talking about lol
warm plinth
I only saw the end of the conversation; my bad.
sick sentinel
Man fuck siege this week
It's like gambling which adds just one shots my group
Do I want magic damage to blast a hole in my healer or a gun up their ass from the marks
whats the best way to deal with skittering as p warrior besides bring MD or taunt?
main vault
Big DPS
primal crypt
kinda rip
sick sentinel
im 372 ilvl stuck with 360 weapon and shield, could be worse
i would kill for a shield like that
primal crypt
I'm still going to use the shit out of it
crystal creek
I finally got a DC. huzzah.
sick sentinel
I won't lie, my double Bloodsport and IF is really working out for me more than DC
I noticed the difference not using pre 8.1, but now it isn't as noticeable in comparison
timber nest
http://prntscr.com/lzzk35 think the 385 socket ring is better than the 385 haste/mastery?
hmm
astral crystal
i mean if you put a haste gem in that ring it'll still be less than your unsocketed ring
🤔
i'd keep unsuccketed
unless you want more vers for whatever reason
timber nest
1012 haste with the 385 + socket, and 1038 vers. lel
oblique garnet
So much vers o.o
round vortex
As long as you keep haste as highest stat for ROA I’d go with whatever gives the most stats of any kind
fierce juniper
@timber nest You should definitely use both socketed rings
astral crystal
why is the socketed ring better in this case?
warm plinth
Ring sockets are worth a lot because rings gain very little stats as they go up in ilevel (and don’t have main stat). @astral crystal
astral crystal
but why is that better
it's the same ilvl
and has less of the stat you'd be gemming for anyway
and will have a combined total less than the unsocketed one
main vault
The same ilvl can’t have a combined total of less
warm plinth
Combined total less???
astral crystal
if he gems haste i mean
warm plinth
It’ll have 40 more total stats which is huge on a ring
astral crystal
the socketed ring is weighted for vers
main vault
It may have less haste
But it has more overall stats
And more stats are often better than specific stats
This isn’t Legion anymore
warm plinth
More total stats > more of a specific stat
astral crystal
just sim it bruh
warm plinth
A 380 ring has 422 secondaries. 385 has 431. So a socket that allows for 40 extra stat is the equivalent to like ~22 ilevel worth of secondaries.
main vault
In the same vein, it is also important to understand that having more stats is better than having "better" stats. For example, if you had to choose between 120 Critical Strike and 100 Haste, you are better off with the 120 Critical Strike.
Literally pasted from the guide
warm plinth
Sim what? You can’t sim prot for anything. We don’t have an updated APL.
lusty grotto
he's memeing
warm plinth
Ah.
lusty grotto
😉
warm plinth
I would use my fancy blob wink but Skyhold = Nofunhold
warm plinth
The “coolest” emoji here is
main vault
Sad face
tight tree
I asked Santa for shield and i got one 😉 380 with socket. Good enough upgrade over 350 one 🤷
ionic fern
I asked Santa for a shield aswell and got the 5th bracers in a row.
surreal tendon
hey guys.. i've been doing some reading and research, but cant seem to find an answer, what would be the ideal stat stacking for prot?
https://raider.io/characters/us/wyrmrest-accord/Muchi, any advise on what trinket to farm as well? thanks
ionic fern
Ilvl + haste are the two you should look out for
So haste is your best secondary stat.
surreal tendon
okay, what about after that? ive been hearing verse or mastery is after that?
ionic fern
In my mind it's something like ilvl=>haste>vers>mastery>crit