how do you interrupt him it looked grey so i couldnt interrupt
#protection
manic perch
manic perch
ok must have missed it then, thought his cast bbar was grey
ionic fern
Usually cleave is enough to remove the blade turning so you don't really need to swap focus to him
manic perch
yeah unless your healer stands way at back like my +12 last night lol, luckily i could survive till the end
soft kindle
You just have to smack his brother a bit, then interrupt
when he starts mauling someone, focus him until you can interrupt, then put focus back on boss
valid needle
Is Azerite Veins really considered S tier for raid? (Watching the Icy-Veins guide atm)
soft kindle
Yes
valid needle
Alright, is it worth going for offensive trinkets? Or is defensive stuff prioritised?
rocky light
Is DC trait still gona be good in 8.1?
soft kindle
Yes
That depends entirely on if you need more survivability or if you can afford to go more offensive oriented
rocky light
Ok, thanks for fast answer! ❤
valid needle
Alrighty, what race is prefered as prot woyer?
soft kindle
The one you think looks the best. The differences between races is not major
tall dove
Gnome so you can LoS your healer on random pieces of debris and terrain on Boralus
zinc mauve
@valid needle more damage = faster mythics, unless you die. In which case, defensive would help you more.
know your limits and take what you need
valid needle
@tall dove i play horde 😅
zinc mauve
i like my human racial
rocky light
Mag´har orc have a nice racial.
zinc mauve
blood elves also have a good racial
valid needle
@zinc mauve thank you, i currently am maining a BDK and really want a nice alt to tank on
zinc mauve
they're very different tanking styles
prot warrior is very proactive; predict the damage and use your defensives before it hits; your best defensives are far less useful when you're already at 30% hp
tall dove
Warrior is like ripping your shirt off, lighting the scraps on fire, and running into the mobs screaming so hard your eyes bloodshot
zinc mauve
highly accurate
valid needle
I guess it's the exact opposite of the reactive BDK playstyle 😂
zinc mauve
you only really have two or three reactive spells, one if which is a big cooldown (rallying cry), another of which is meant to fill in gaps in your mitigation (Last stand), and the last of which is unreliable except on explosive weaks or first boss of tol dagor (Victory Rush)
by defensives im referring to heals largely
your defensives are super strong, but you have to use them wisely to get the most juice out of them
Done properly, you'll require less healing than a blood DK. Done improperly, you're probably dead
sick sentinel
@ionic fern can u purge the shield from booby?
odd ledge
Victory Rush
Last boss underrot btw
valid needle
@zinc mauve does it work on Raal in WM?
zinc mauve
which boss is that
valid needle
With the blobs and the adds that give food
zinc mauve
Yep
valid needle
Well that's op op
zinc mauve
that boss is a joke anyway
you dont even have to kill the adds
it buffs his damage by 5%
valid needle
Well
zinc mauve
even on a tyrannical 15 it wasnt an issue
then again, we had lust for him
so your mileage may vary
soft kindle
just roll with a sub rogue in every dungeon
zinc mauve
my guild has no rogues
soft kindle
every boss becomes trivial if you're brave enough
valid needle
Just did a 13 the other day but our healer was Hpriest and our rogue isn't comfy with Sub
valid needle
And since sub is being deleted now it's yikes
zinc mauve
we make do with what we have, we can death skip pretty handedly
i have keys so i can open up gates and shit
soft kindle
being deleted is a slight exaggeration
hollow thorn
Its dumb how busted rogues are, u cant push without one
zinc mauve
absolutely absurd admitedly
soft kindle
you won't see 40-50k pure boss dmg anymore, but they'll still stomp priority damage with extra adds
hollow thorn
BDKs and DHs can be replaced, but u cant replace a rogue, it saves to much time
valid needle
@soft kindle with Combo being gone it's a huge nerf
zinc mauve
my pushing group is - disc priest, dh, frost dk, frost mage, prot warrior (yours truly)
soft kindle
I am aware. my statement still stands
hollow thorn
Are they even getting a buff to compensate?
valid needle
A bit to storm
soft kindle
with additional targets to hit, Sub will still stomp everyone else on single target by a large margin
hollow thorn
You can still do SS -> Evis (reapeat), but Evis will just do way less dmg
valid needle
Oh well. Im excited to get a Mag'har Orc prot woyer going
soft kindle
Current rough numbers in Ravenhold have it at like a 25% nerf, give or take, on Zul for boss dmg
so assuming it's closer to 30% for doomsaying
That's still ~30k boss dps
zinc mauve
40k dps on a boss sounds gross, is that purely on boss or just overall?
hollow thorn
The first thing ill do on wednesday is to smash a key as prot
soft kindle
Purely boss
zinc mauve
thats fucked
hollow thorn
Teeming aswell for big dmg
soft kindle
The numbers I was stating were from my own logs, and from a few m+ logs I pulled up
looking at sub rogue boss dmg on zul and on m+ bosses regularly cheesed in a similar fashion,
and yeah, during lust with good RNG a sub rogue can pop off 60-70k pure boss dps
hollow thorn
Like everyone saw MDI
soft kindle
fucking insane
valid needle
What truly hyped me was the Shrine skip with Rogue gliding + shroud 😂
zinc mauve
i think i revolutionized some random pug group. I was running my priest through some 8's and we got into a group with a rogue, did a tol dagor key and the group didnt know about the npcs you could release
soft kindle
rofl
outer dew
Smh
A guy I m+ with trying to convince me to play mage for his guild
@soft kindle so when you carry me through keys dad :^)
valid needle
Same
zinc mauve
Is archive really that good or is it just a reliable trait?
junior igloo
Well that depends on how good "that good" is 😃
zinc mauve
im just comparing it to traits like bloodsport
because I see sense running double archive and im trying to figure out if this is what i need in my life
junior igloo
Nah, not needed.
I assume those are just his best pieces. The raid is the most consistent source of 385 item level Azerite, so the raid traits are more common as a result
tender phoenix
As patch day is almost here just wanna ask quickly.... is it much of a buff to us?
short temple
as far as i know as i currenly stand
5% stam buff
10% armor from str buff
2 sec off shield block cd
GCD removed from Intercept
ignore pain of GCD
tender phoenix
so yee it is?
copper pewter
yes
tender phoenix
ah good ^^
copper pewter
also blockable ranged ablities
soft kindle
It's a very large buff
hollow thorn
I need to reclear and get a better shield
or just set lootspec to prot for weekly chest 🤔
then ill get 390 wep and cry
zinc mauve
the only thing we really lose is some value off of deafening crash. It was a necessary nerf but it hits nonetheless. Deafening crash is still really good, just not worth 45 ilvls, after patch it will be worth aroudn 15 is what most are saying
valid needle
45 ILVLS monkaS
stone crag
🐦
soft kindle
The ilvl is roughly correct tho
valid needle
@soft kindle i guess it just sounds kinda shocking to me since im a BDK main and none of our traits are any good LUL
soft kindle
rofl
Prot doesn't care about it's other traits, ilvl > all
but DC is worth a lot atm
mild maple
Having no good traits isn't the end of the world as long as you aren't underpowered as a result. You can more or less ignore the awful azerite system, sounds like a bonus.
valid needle
Debate-able
I can promise you that going 3x Tradewinds for BDK is not gonna give you a good time
soft kindle
I'd rather have good traits and traits that affect gameplay
yknow
arms
or affliction, kind of
tiny drift
How does your opener singeltarget look like?
sick sentinel
😆
valid needle
@soft kindle I just wanted something that made my gameplay matter but... Nope
valid needle
@ember arrow you're being summoned
oblique garnet
fml 18 shrine key <.<
hollow thorn
Can i have it
daring marlin
He’s our Warrior brother.
hollow thorn
Shrine isnt that hard this week honestly
hollow thorn
just do big pulls
hollow thorn
are u pugging to 18 monkaS
eager tartan
As matter of fact, from 14 onwards I rather pug than go with my guldies lul
crimson sentinel
Same
hollow thorn
get better guildies lol
Aslong as u can get the pugs on discord it shouldnt be a problem
eager tartan
I can't mate they are friends =(
crimson sentinel
It's more that a lot of guild members arent interested in m+
vocal nimbus
again?
astral crystal
shhh
tight tree
wat where
astral crystal
is on the same row
astral crystal
next time
worthy dagger
i literally typed a second after, how is that even serious
i see keys lower than 10 and it makes me throw up
or OCE players, that also makes me upset
250ms
sick sentinel
If would be affected by AM parry would no longer be the meme for us
astral crystal
back when i was farming atal 24/7 i endured a few OCE groups
errant wing
@astral crystal nice troll, AGAIN
tardy surge
Can dragon roar be useful for some high keys? Or is UF just to good to swap from? Thinking dragon roar can give us some better kiting potential
hollow thorn
Your group should already have a slow anyway
astral crystal
well you might kite a little on necrotic
worthy dagger
yes, once you get hundred stacks you start applying necrotic to enemies
makes boss fights so easy
worthy dagger
lol
astral crystal
:^)
worthy dagger
cmon bra
hollow thorn
yes
mild maple
With great memes comes great responsibility
worthy dagger
that couldnt make any more sense
astral crystal
if you fall for the meme, you become the meme
jovial verge
I want to believe
astral crystal
god damn so bored at work
crystal creek
Looking forward to tomorrow's changes ❤
short temple
all depends on what you main is xD
dusk locust
i wonder how long until i break the habit of hitting ignore pain and then waiting a second
short temple
2 sec after patch goes live? xD
dusk locust
haha maybe
daring marlin
idk 2 secs after patch is live gotta check disappointment box
dusk locust
i haven't done islands in forever
crystal creek
What'd they say max neck req was for 8.1 42?
crystal creek
Fun.
tropic star
so im doing mythic mythrax and notice that a lot of the time im sitting at 1 stack of ITF. I have to hug his nuts to get more than 1 -2 and then my orbs have a chance to get sucked up by melee.
anyone mathed out if Punish may be better there or jsut running ITF still?
glad stump
Hey guys. Is it worth to stack multiple thunderclap traits for m+ dmg or are there better traits to boost our aoe?
astral crystal
have you gotten to p2 yet @tropic star ? if so where did your team put you
for p2 i do the solo side with a shaman, steady 3 stacks there
2 stacks rather, which helps
if anything just for a bit of dmg
tropic star
im with the party so have easy 5 stacks in P2
daring marlin
@mild maple ??? If you casually do a rank every week by the time the raid drops you’ll have enough for thefirst threerings anyway
ez
junior igloo
But what about my gemhide? 😦
cobalt trellis
anyone has a feeling the new m+10 affix will favor utility like mass grip/grip seal even more than before?
daring marlin
We’ll have more avenues for ap too
sick sentinel
Could also favor mass aoe dmg ie prot warr
mild maple
It's kind of unclear, what do the ghost-things even do
Like, do they cast? Will they be ranged if the mob was ranged? etc
If they're just melee ghost that chase the group it should be trivial to stack them regardless of tank
cobalt trellis
yeah, havent seen any kind of information about it yet,too
sick sentinel
There probably will be some kind of mechanic which forces ppl to actually use brain on thise packs too, at least some casts etc
soft kindle
@crystal creek 48 for center ring on shoulders in mythic
cobalt trellis
we'll just have to wait i guess? will the affix be playable on ptr before? was infested playable on ptr before?
mild maple
I wonder if the ghosts will inherit the other affixes
Sanguine or bolstering and whatnot
sick sentinel
ye i guess. I hope so, would be nice to know details about the affix before deciding which tank to main in season 2
hopefully warr will be as strong as some people predicts
soft kindle
hard CC like sap and poly will become less needed in every run
big aoe will probably gain value
gonna be fun
mild maple
Warrior DPS might overtake Rogues
sick sentinel
back to legion
mild maple
DH/Warr/Ranged
soft kindle
even if it's harder than infested, I think it'll be more inclusion and fun game-wide
rather than half the specs unable to actually help
cobalt trellis
i assume the ghost adds wont give % so i hope these adds dont proc sanguine, bolstering, etc... but who knows
or its rather a big stampede that you dont have to fight but rather jump and run and hide and avoid
potent anvil
Infested was playable during beta. Dunno if we'll see reaping on the ptr.
mild maple
It has to get some testing, right? Can't just throw it live and see what happens 🤔
potent anvil
I imagine they would want to test it. But who knows.
narrow abyss
First week will be interesting
broken roost
How big a deal is the ability to block ranged attacks going forward? I know there are a couple dungeons (Queen whoever in KR, for example) where it'll be big, but I'm not sure what else is ranged.
narrow abyss
Every other week the combination of affixes made something busted lol
Throw rock in ML
junior igloo
@mild maple
Is that a dare?
crystal creek
Siege has quite a few rifles in it.
soft kindle
Siege, ML, FH, KR, WC, TD, ToS @broken roost
all have a chunk of ranged mobs that can tend to hit p hard on fort
broken roost
Oh nice, didnt realize there were that many. Thanks
oblique garnet
If you have a rogue i dont think you have to kill any ranged mobs on fh that are not casters
sick sentinel
Has the theorycrafter in here had any say in the tank balancing yet?
floral tinsel
Yeah, there are some scattered here and there and they hit hard
sick sentinel
I'm not entirely sold here on when to ignore pain
currently I've been using it with shield block in place of devastate
because it takes a gcd and apparently should be in place of my lowest prio ability
but I feel like that's wrong
crystal creek
As of tomorrow it will be off the GCD.
astral crystal
got rage? got shield block up? throw up IP
sick sentinel
yeet
astral crystal
it's not really that much of a luxury cast, revenge is hardly worth pressing in most situations unless it's free
daring marlin
Can’t tell if trolling
astral crystal
so if you dont have ss or tclap up
floral tinsel
In raids; if shield block is up and you are not hitting over cap (1.3 casts)
sick sentinel
why would I be trolling
lol
I just spent like 6 hours farming dungeons for a shield
daring marlin
:^)
astral crystal
you should be overflowing with rage in most situations anyway
sick sentinel
should ignore pain ever come before ss or tc
floral tinsel
In m+; As a rage dump
sick sentinel
and then how do I manage it with avatar
mild maple
In 24 hours you won't have to choose
sick sentinel
because in uldir with avatar my tc is less than 2 seconds of cd
yes
but it is noit 24 hours
I am playing now
mild maple
In that case no unless you think it'll stop you from dying
sick sentinel
got it
astral crystal
there's not set priority, you cast according to what you need; for example if youre at 100 rage and you have SS and IP available, you probably want to cast IP before SS
floral tinsel
Right now, with Avatar: Never unless you are dieing. Without Avatar; at bottom of the rotation
sick sentinel
I see
I should use a larger rage bar weakaura for prot than I do fury, then
or rather
I should get Titania's again
because I lost it when I wiped stuff
floral tinsel
At 100 rage you should use revenge and/or IP just for reducing Demo Shout CD though (Anger Management).. So its a little situation depending.
floral tinsel
Kek
daring marlin
sick sentinel
do we actually want to cap rage
just like
at 100
rage cap is a cardinal sin as fury
final mist
No
primal crypt
but you can't help it sometimes
final mist
Capping Rage is wasting Rage
primal crypt
when you're clapping that ass
final mist
Knowing when to IP is going to be much easier tomorrow.
sick sentinel
ye
mild maple
"When do I IP?" "Yes"
primal crypt
shoot is really cramping my style man
I can't wait until tomorrow
it's going to feel soooo amazing
sick sentinel
I like going into pugs as prot and outdpsing the dps
floral tinsel
That won't change ;)
sick sentinel
ember arrow
cant you just spam IP now
since its off gcd, there is no punishment for mistiming it
ember arrow
and as long as you dont use IP ontop of a full IP
primal crypt
Lel
ember arrow
all good
btw someone pinged me earlier
i cant be arsed to go back
was it you? @primal crypt
primal crypt
nopah
mild maple
depending on your rage income maybe you should spam IP with a full IP to reduce CDs
ember arrow
well IP should be depleted quite fast
so in relevant content youd prob spam it without wasting
sick sentinel
oh my god
a fucking hunter has taunt on
in raid
it shouldnt even work
but it does on bloods
ember arrow
pets cant taunt bosses
sick sentinel
coalesced blood
ember arrow
thats not a boss
stuck oxide
Prot warrior got buffed again on ptr yedterday ? ( vanguard )
ember arrow
yea
sick sentinel
it's annoying
ember arrow
additional 5% armor
soft kindle
@ember arrow control-i
soft kindle
One of the only changes I can think of atm that I'd like for prot is IP going from 1.3 cap to like
idk, 2.0
ember arrow
@soft kindle ctrl i?
soft kindle
to see pings
soft kindle
Yee
hollow thorn
Or just click @ thing
soft kindle
Imagine thinking anyone cares
hollow thorn
Oof
hollow thorn
Big oof
sick sentinel
turns out
it was not a hunter
it was a guardian druid
taunting in phase 1 taloc
🤔
hollow thorn
Hunters cant taunt bosses
ember arrow
ye he said he taunted bloods
soft kindle
Kick the druid
crystal creek
feelsbearman
hollow thorn
Prot
gaunt dawn
Big thunderclapper
sand egret
whatever you can kill an entire quest-worths of mobs faster with
crystal creek
Either would be good.
sand egret
prot is easier for mass pulling as arms requires a bit of finese when leveling
but if you get vampiric speed its ez as fuck
crystal creek
BS and DBtS.
valid needle
It's why im asking
sand egret
oh.
literally anything
that's like not even a question at that level seeing as you don't even have all your abilities yet haha
prob easier to find a 2hander
since its 1 weapon vs two
heck, prot cant even use plate till 40 still right?
valid needle
They can
valid needle
Ye
narrow abyss
Don’t remember when I last leveled from 1
sand egret
waaaat
sand egret
going mail > plate was great feeling levveling
sick sentinel
nah
narrow abyss
Yeah it was
sick sentinel
it was definitely tomb
valid needle
Oh well
Ill wait till Wednesday
Since we're getting 30% on War mode instead of 10
narrow abyss
The new exp changes should be in on patch
valid needle
And exp needed is reduced POG
sick sentinel
Hunters cant taunt bosses anymore?
Wait warmode gives +30% reward this friday?
Wtf friday
Wednesday after patch
That’s sweet, been activating warmode anytime questing just for that and soloing power
uneven mason
+30% to the underdog
uneven mason
it tries to balance but sometimes there is just not a lot of alliance going warmode
esp on Turalyon
the funny thing is, Horde get so complacient on my server they seem very surprised when I jump them with a DH and Rogue out in the world
most of them try and run
even like 5v 3 they run
dusk locust
yeah i went warmode on a new toon i was leveling and ended up getting camped by a group of rogues for a while. 30% might make it worth i dunno
astral crystal
30% is a pretty insignificant bonus imo
dusk locust
but it's pretty much just horde wrecking crews while i level
the question is just if it makes up for the lost time
uneven mason
yeah, I run with a pack
my favorite is doing world PVP on my resto druid
with said rogue and HDH
kitti eat face resto
sick sentinel
I welcome them rogues! I’ll smash em
dusk locust
world pvp is super fun but only if i'm really looking for it
which is what warmode is meant to be
thing is horde can have it on all the time as a passive bonus for the most part
dusk locust
it'll at least make me consider going warmode
oblique garnet
Never had wm off
uneven mason
at 386 arms I'm not too horribly scared of anyone 1v1 either
daring marlin
lol arms
oblique garnet
I do all the wqs as prot nobody really wants to even touch me
dusk locust
i hardly do world quests anymore i only am really out there on new toons
uneven mason
dat burst tho
daring marlin
inc ret pally
valid needle
I mean
I play Horde but
I only really see people going at it when some guy touches the other
Like.. Ill Death Grip people here and there
uneven mason
my favorite people are the ones who run adaptation
oblique garnet
I only kill people if they attack me first
uneven mason
<--- shoots first
valid needle
People don't attack Blood DK's lmao
uneven mason
everytime
valid needle
Uhhhh
oblique garnet
its good in 1v1 situation
uneven mason
It is, more or less
oblique garnet
but loses to frost mage
uneven mason
self healing
valid needle
Well
oblique garnet
Yes it does
sick sentinel
no it doesn't
oblique garnet
Because no good frost mage will face tank a warrior
valid needle
Not anymore :V
sick sentinel
no good frost mage can escape a warrior
primal crypt
I never lose
valid needle
The nerfs to slows will be sufficient.
uneven mason
Late you realize that Bloodthirst removes snare/roots right?
and gives you a run speed buff
narrow abyss
And movespedd buff
uneven mason
frostmage is dong'd vs fury
sick sentinel
with thirst for battle trait
oblique garnet
Yeah and if you dont have anything to bloodthirst what do you do?
primal crypt
Die
uneven mason
uh
primal crypt
Obviously
uneven mason
I mean
valid needle
Gottem
uneven mason
lets see here
valid needle
G O T T E M
sick sentinel
"if you cant use your main ability, what then????"
uneven mason
"CANT ROOT ME, CAN SPAM BLOODTHIRST WITH NO CD"
primal crypt
Better not get nova'd
primal crypt
Living action potions
oblique garnet
I mean in theory you could taunt an add and use bt on that
primal crypt
Problem solved
narrow abyss
Idk hit a turnip
oblique garnet
but if theres no adds nearby
valid needle
Feral will treat you nicely aswell i assume
daring marlin
Lots of bad rets I guess
sick sentinel
yea i can't kill ret
that's not true
actually
I can kill ret
I can't kill holy
sick sentinel
why
sick sentinel
why do we lose to ret
uneven mason
Yeah I'm waiting too
sick sentinel
assuming "we" is still referring to fury
daring marlin
LOL
sick sentinel
brm best raid tank
daring marlin
Levkooooooo
ember arrow
even then
uneven mason
RIP Blood
uneven mason
Warrior is hot garbage
soft kindle
Even right now bdk is not the best raid tank
ember arrow
people always meme about prot
soft kindle
pre nerfs
uneven mason
I meme about tanks in general
I Had a bitter weekend in Ulduar
where they kept makeing warrior "Self sustain jokes"
until I Rally + Last stand healed myself when all the healers were dead 👏
ember arrow
no tank can self sustain in raids regardless
uneven mason
I Know
we've had this discussion
many times
I was making a joke
about the ret v warrior
PVP discussion
"Self sustain" is the warrior meme reason why anyone is better than us.
lusty summit
Prot Warri und Brew will be top tier in m+ and raids :D:D:D
ember arrow
idk about m+ but definitely raids
no reason to take warr over brm still, snce brm has no margin for error
uneven mason
def not in M+
erm
BrM has all the margin for error
they have overlapping margin for error
soft kindle
You could press every wrong button and be ok as brm
crystal creek
or no buttons
lusty summit
or dk brm will be top tier
ember arrow
dk will be bear levels
oblique garnet
in m+ the change is not that much affected
lusty summit
hm ok
uneven mason
My guild is extremely happy they "gave me a shot" and have a geared prot war going into 8.1
oblique garnet
my rl still thinks dk will be better ;__;
ember arrow
is he memeing
primal crypt
Raid leaders are retarded anyway
oblique garnet
Unfortunately im not sure
crystal creek
Most people outside this channel (and Acherus) I don't think realize how good some of our changes are and how impactful the BDK one was
primal crypt
They have zero clue
ember arrow
@crystal creek correct
wide girder
soft kindle
Monk is still the best raid tank
ember arrow
preach's vids are same quality as a onehit wonder palying their annual comeback tour
mild maple
It's gonna take sometime to shake the meme that prot sucks. Remember when Monks got buffed early in Legion and everyone thought they sucked for months until 5 min ISB memes on Botanist
signal rune
+1 on braking community perception
junior igloo
What are the changes to BDK?
astral crystal
they can no longer use weapons or abilities
ember arrow
@junior igloo Boneshield reverted back to 40% of str
losing 18% ehp combined with wotn nerf
floral tinsel
Breaking community perception is a bad thing though as we will get nerfed as soon as community aknowledges the strenght of prot. Prot is not garbage right now, will be better once we can get even higher haste values (increased ilvl) and we get shield block, blocking and passive tankyness buffs
stable lotus
I've literally just joined this disc due to that change, on the chance that the BDK armour nerf doesn't get reverted before the new raid
astral crystal
the community 'knows' brm and bdk are strong
soft kindle
That's not true rofl
ember arrow
@astral crystal wotn was older
astral crystal
they will continue to be strong after 8.1
ember arrow
but together with the new one its super big los
soft kindle
community perception has nothing to do with what is nerfed or not
signal rune
LF +8 AD need BDK
soft kindle
The community is stupid
signal rune
every day
ember arrow
why would u do +8s
mild maple
Blizz doesn't need to know what we think they go off metrics and Ion's tea readings
astral crystal
remember most of the WoW community is uninformed and bases their ideas on what they see world first players proclaim as definite
oblique garnet
i got denied to 15 fh earlier today on my warrior despite having timed it on 17
"Sorry youre not bdk"
stark sage
it does affect how significant nerfs are, devs confirmed that at the last QnA. where if a underperforming spec has awful community perception. they are inclined to overbuff to try and correct the community's perception
floral tinsel
personal +8 keys, because you don't have the io to get in anywhere else 😛
soft kindle
Half the playerbase takes what people in method say as holy writ
astral crystal
they also said they're trying not to go that route @stark sage
soft kindle
Imagine that fucking Josh actually impacts how people view things like balance
signal rune
some people dont know theres a patch tomorrow
astral crystal
they made a similar comment about faction balance as well
stark sage
sure, ideally they would just balance based on data
oblique garnet
Oh dw Levko i will
signal rune
just watch your realms trade chats:'' guise wats new dis patch???''
oblique garnet
All my guild mates prefer having my warrior over my dk on m+ every time
ember arrow
i can do it
astral crystal
i dont even know what data they're even considering since ion thinks warcraftlogs is misleading 🤔
mild maple
new patch who dis
soft kindle
tbf, unless you know how to actually read it, wcl is very misleading
astral crystal
also true, tomorrow will be an influx of people asking if prot is fixed
mild maple
Blizzard doesn't care about the tiny % of the player base that bother logging
Ion in big balancing for the LFR boys
ember arrow
@astral crystal i found ion's second account
astral crystal
name checks out
soft kindle
having the information available =/= having the ability to properly process and dissect that information
astral crystal
it's not misleading, it's information, the information doesn't offer value judgments
that's what the reader does
wclogs by definition cant be misleading
soft kindle
The end result is the same
astral crystal
it's our inferences that are
stark sage
@mild maple that's not really true, they do base their data across all difficulties. the problem is class balance is much harder than just turning up a knob until its balanced
floral tinsel
ehh sure, but in LFR you can pretty much do whatever you want... no real reason to balance for it
so balancing is probably more tuned towards community perception
stark sage
@astral crystal that's the easiest way, but tuning X ability until damage point is reached can be really problematic for some cases. for instance WW monk's rotation became very unintuitive where one of their core abilities wasnt worth spending chi on to save a GCD
an extreme example would be tuning something like slam for arms, at a certain point it would become better than execute
ofc they are a bit smarter than that
autumn pendant
But only a bit
sand egret
so just a heads up, blizz does look at wcl but in the terms of "its misleading" is by the fact that they're not universally uploaded. It's not the full picture
in contrast, they have so much more built-in BI that honestly WCL is like citing a 2nd hand source over a 1st hand
so the data we see via our own sourced means is only limited to those that are actually submitting logs...vs literally every player's data
and in re: to tuning numbers via aura's. It can get iffy, but it's significantly safer from a dev perspective. Generally, with a game like WoW, you don't want to tune with a hammer if you don't have to. That's why they built the aura system years ago. Too many moving parts at this stage to start wrecking into individual spells (hence why "omg why did you wait for a patch and not a hotfix lolololol" memes exist) a
astral crystal
how can our data be real if our eyes arent real tbh
sand egret
the data is real, but limited
last glen
So what you’re saying is - we have all the data from people logging only. You assume the majority of people on logs are playing somewhat optimally. They have all the data from EVERYONE. Including that percentage that is spamming their filler and not pressing anything else. Skewing their numbers?
sand egret
no what i'm saying is that the logs show one thing from a type of player, which is valuable but only a particular slice of what goes into actually balancing the game
last glen
Because of what I said? Or?
sand egret
? or what
last glen
That’s what I’m asking.. how can their logs be that much more in depth than ours. Wcl encompasses everything.
last glen
I guess it doesn’t have things like ping.. and very very specific character movement?
last glen
A character’s combat log
sand egret
yes, and that combat log only shows X, Y, Z data
consistent across all characters
what i'm saying is that Blizzard has the whole damn alphabet
last glen
Right, but do we just assume that those other letters are actually important enough to give them more data for balancing than X, Y, and Z?
sand egret
can you assume they aren't
soft kindle
wcl has an incredible amount of data and is extremely in depth.
Thinking it has everything is naive
sand egret
it's a valuable tool, just assuming it has everything is exactly as Meth said
for instance: as a class designer, let's say for Warriors
narrow abyss
Only a specific segment of players care to check or upload WCL
astral crystal
imo that's the most important part of the playerbase
who cares about mongoloids who mouthbreathe and can't press more than 2 buttons
astral crystal
sand egret
literally couldn't even finish my statement I was writing haha
last glen
It is the most important part of the player base when caring about fine tuning balance. The people that aren’t doing it efficiently don’t care, and won’t notice.
sand egret
that's also a terrible assumption
soft kindle
Everyone cares about numbers
astral crystal
so why is the lower end important at all then?
sand egret
there is just so much to that answer
astral crystal
the people who run never surrender, impending victory and ravager
ember arrow
and bliz wants money
astral crystal
why are they necessary for improving prot
sand egret
like books on that shit
last glen
@soft kindle that’s just untrue. That’s a broad assumption
last glen
Is it?
soft kindle
No it's very true
it's just the extent to which they care about said numbers that varies
last glen
Yeah, varies all the way to zero..
sand egret
"everyone cares about numbers " = "people who aren't doing it efficiently don't care and won't notice" in generalizations
last glen
You’re saying there is no one that plays wow that doesn’t care about numbers?
soft kindle
You think that even the most extreme casual would enjoy playing a garbage spec? To the extent that they suffer just fighting a world mob?
yes
in some way
everyone cares about the numbers they do
it's a game of fucking numbers
broken roost
The people who upload to wcl are a subset of people who play efficiently and care about how things work, but they are not the only ones, who do. And how thing feel to play (bigger numbers or smoother gameplay helps in that) is important to virtually everyone
last glen
Not to everyone..
soft kindle
Half their UI and half the UIs commonly used accentuate numbers
last glen
To some this is a game of pet battles.
soft kindle
Give me an example of someone to whom numbers would not matter
Pet battles are a game of numbers
last glen
To some this is a transmog contest.
soft kindle
🤦
sweet kettle
Pet battles are actually only numbers
last glen
Right, but their hunters DPS doesn’t affect their pets DPS.
sweet kettle
Transmog are numbers as well
Alot of people don't care about numbers but that doesn't mean they are not there
sweet kettle
That's also true people enjoy seeing giant numbers on the screen
ember arrow
pet battles are actually a complete feature of wow
contrary to bfa
they actually work
sweet kettle
Oh snap
oblique garnet
oh damn levko
primal crypt
I only play this game for transmog
oblique garnet
youre actually right
primal crypt
Cant break that
sweet kettle
The best thing in Wow right now is freehold I have never seen a dungeon this bugged in my life
broken roost
@Warm, the issue with your assumption is using wcl (those that do and those that dont upload) as the line between those who dont care about balance and those that do. It's a huge spectrum, and blizz has more info on where everyone lives essentially
primal crypt
@sweet kettle obviously you haven't run enough tol dagor
soft kindle
The fact that someone who is hyper casual does not even realize the numbers affect them does not change the fact that they are extremely impacted by them
primal crypt
Too bad it has. Really good shield
crystal creek
Next 5 man will be a bigger pet dungeon.
primal crypt
A*
sweet kettle
Fk that better off getting a lesser shield than suffering from ptsd from that tol
oblique garnet
wdym freehold is buggy?
sweet kettle
The pathing in that dungeon is aids the bosses can be bugged out
little rain
23 hours bois
last glen
@broken roost I'm not saying that's what the balance should be based on. I was trying to get @sand egret to get to his extremely long winded point that he still never got to. Unless his whole point, after like 5 paragraphs was - "blizz has a really in-depth combat log".
oblique garnet
the pathing is ez
broken roost
You implied/assumed that wcl are all the balance should be based on because those players play efficiently and care about numbers, and those that dont upload dont care about numbers.. those two sets of players exist but theres a chasm of playertypes and whatnot between them. Bladesong's point was that blizz has way more info than we do about those that dont upload to wcl
primal crypt
Tol Dagor still has mobs coming through the floor
And beat on your healer
But stay invisible
primal crypt
And then makes everyone rage
little rain
eu 😬
last glen
No... I said the higher end is what the "fine-tuning" should be based on. Scroll up to the quote.
daring marlin
Assuming all the people on WCL care is a fallacy itself. People pug all the time with randos who don’t know they’re being logged and uploaded to WCL.
lavish oracle
What qualifies as higher end?
last glen
Let Blizz decide that. We're apparently assuming their "in-depth" logging system is even correct.
broken roost
I mean that's a semantic difference anyway - we can't quantify what matters to those that dont upload, or how close they are to progression or not, or anything to be able to say
It has to be correct, it is the game
primal crypt
Don't forget guys
daring marlin
go shave idiot
primal crypt
We get battle rez tomorrow too
daring marlin
!!!!!!
astral crystal
travex the god Kappa
primal crypt
@daring marlin lololol
daring marlin
😛
lavish oracle
Like, theres no way class balance should be based on 15+ keys for instance but I would agree all classes should be capable of completing +10s and the mythic raid given enough time in the tier
astral crystal
travex hello i am number 2 prot warr on ZJ, under you by 500 points :^)))
primal crypt
500 points lol
Better get working
My group only started working on 16s
Big jump from 15s
astral crystal
i stopped pushing since all the people i ran with got sick of WoW
primal crypt
Whew
astral crystal
dont really want to push with tryhards so fuck it til s2
broken roost
The point is that basing anything on only wcl uploaders is not enough, and we have no (or virtually no) info about those that dont upload, blizz does
sand egret
then perfect.
last glen
If that was Bladesong's point.. you reached it in 600 less words.
lavish oracle
Sure, but WCL is undeniably a valuable tool for us, the non-omniscient players to gain insight into current class balance
broken roost
Third party eyes are helpful, I was lurking the conversational hah
lavish oracle
And also I would agree that classes shouldn't be balanced around players who only clear heroic dungeons and daily emissaries
You can't really get any useful data from them other than "are they understanding the class" because we know every class is more than capable of clearing that content
daring marlin
SHHHHHHHHHHH
daring marlin
No they can’t!
sand egret
I mean that wasn't my whole point tbh
keen spire
Oh there's a conversation going
sand egret
but Koofd said most of it best
keen spire
whoops
crystal creek
Yes I've written all my stats down so I can see how much they increase when I log in tomorrow.
keen spire
ignore my excitement sorry byeeee
sand egret
the other point I was making was to how balancing is done re: aura tuning
which is way more practical in the current state of the game, than say going into individual spells
keen spire
@crystal creek This is a good plan.
last glen
Got time to write a 1000 word document in discord though 🤔
soft kindle
Would you shutup
primal crypt
ez
lavish oracle
@Bladesong#6216 Yeah, Blizz is definitely intentionally shifting balance that way, like we've seen with the Shaman changes on PTR
sand egret
yeah, if you couldn't get it, it was a general sentiment of laziness
daring marlin
@last glen Are you okay?
signal plover
Bladesong is literally always writing novels in here
sand egret
warm apparently doesn't like when people type
signal plover
Bro it's so much reading
daring marlin
Blink twice if you’re okay
signal plover
Aww shit you triggered marok
last glen
I apologize. Sorry, Blade.
daring marlin
He’s been in the process of typing for a little bit.
primal crypt
uh oh
fierce juniper
I'm just typing up a pin since the guide's been updated :P
sand egret
haha no worries, honestly i'm just here to talk to design
signal plover
Woop woop
sand egret
dangit
but thanks for the update!
gotta get ahead of the influx of 
responses tomorrow
signal plover
I hope there's jubilant memes about IP off GCD
primal crypt
It made us FOTM
daring marlin
@sand egret
primal crypt
all these groups I'm joining
You happy to be op tomorrow?
....reddit warriors man...
daring marlin
I hope blade will tank all the M+ for my Warlock!
sand egret
well I'll certainly be running shit on my warrior haha
gotta try and get my bloodpsort setup
lavish oracle
I'm glad I'm not DPS or healer because there are gonna be a lot of bad prot warriors inc
signal plover
If u see a bad prot warr, send em here and have em
sand egret
maybe someone can clear this up, but do you get the azerite residue shit from completing any M+ or just in the weekly cache....
signal plover
Just in weekly
lavish oracle
Just weekly
signal plover
And from scrapping azerite 340 and above
daring marlin
that shit is worthless
lavish oracle
Yeah, I'll be spending rerolls on raid azerite until Dazar Alor hits
daring marlin
355 gives 3
sand egret
so strictly from a "I want to farm residue" perspective, the best way would be like the raid, M0, or emissaries right?
signal plover
It's not gonna be very farmable til 8.1 imo
lavish oracle
Nah, m0s aren't worth it
sand egret
ok, thats what I was thinkin
daring marlin
340s probably give 1 per
signal plover
340 azerite gives 1 residuum lol
daring marlin
It’s gonna be ass
sand egret
it'll be more of a "another reason to push your key" thing
last glen
And M0 rewards go up to 370 at new raid.
broken roost
How much is needed to buy the azerite pieces?
lavish oracle
Its diminiahing returns, I think
sand egret
oook, so ultimately pushing your key seems to be the best time investment
sand egret
@broken roost wowhead posted some tables of speculated prices I think
soft kindle
Below a 10 is exponentially less, above a 10 is diminishing returns on it
sand egret
based on what we've seen
soft kindle
the DR is not more severe above 15, just increasingly small
daring marlin
385 is 165 on ptr right now for a random piece
675 for specific
dunno about 400-415 pieces
sand egret
which is their plan, tbh
lavish oracle
Yeah
sand egret
put that shit so far out of reach that even the min/maxers won't feel the need to have to farm it (legit issue)
which is another meaty topic of balance and design 😄
i'm just excited for Marok's apparent new auto-biography he's writing hahah
sand egret
loool it's just really funny
signal plover
Blade u could write a detailed post about maroks long post