I mean
#protection
chilly brook
hidden ether
But living will be nice
chilly brook
Our DPS will still be high
chilly brook
DC was a very small component of our AoE tbh
I more or less am going to miss the extra survivability
sand egret
I'm more looking forward to having more freedom to build around my traits, personally
chilly brook
Nah can’t have it compete with AM unless they make AM baseline
frosty wedge
true
chilly brook
Then we can talk
tepid dagger
so with SB going to 16 seconds, 33% haste still looking far down the line for the 100%, eh?
sick sentinel
like said a few weeks ago when first brought onto PTR, its gonna be ridiculous for us high haste prots on live.
basically forever constant block w/ that change + bolster
chrome falcon
mythrax down poggers
hey so
we can spell reflect that thing ghuun does right
explosive whatever
vocal nimbus
y
prisma crane
@sick sentinel no problem my man, just let us know if you have any other questions
steel mauve
ya, spell reflect during the cast and you dont get explosive corruption
prisma crane
works in P1 as well
just hit reflect when DBM tells you you have the debuff
it makes you say that before the cast goes off
wheat bronze
so you can Spell Reflection and not spawn a pool?
uneven mason
correct
you can get the 2nd and 4th
or rather you can get every other
but always make sure yo uahve SR For the 4th
because thats when blood feast comes out
wheat bronze
There's time to leap out after feast, unless timers change on mythic
smoky oak
Timers tend to act up alot on mythic
vocal nimbus
Dont risk it and get used to SR those 2
steel mauve
i usually SR the first and 4th one
prisma crane
you can do every other one
steel mauve
ya but the first one is during my first round of demo shout + avatar cds as he becomes active
prisma crane
eh
wheat bronze
We just started Myth last night but that's good to know. I never did it on heroic or normal either.
steel mauve
and the way we have it set up i take every corruption, so i just do the first and 4th so i dont have to move out during cd's
the second rotation though of corruptions you have a ton of time to move out between the corruption cast and the second add, so you can just SR any of them there
nova rover
Howdy guys, am I hearing it right and we are coming back to be amazing again?
lusty grotto
lolll
prisma crane
and blocking ranged attacks will be nice
lusty grotto
we should say yes every time
steel mauve
we're going to be better at what we already do, but thats about it, and some QoL improvements
nova rover
tear
lusty grotto
why tear
vocal nimbus
But the QoL improvements are pretty amazing
nova rover
I was hoping we'd be back to like maybe start of legion haha
lusty grotto
you mean spam-IP-time?
fuck that
that was flat out broken and im glad it was nerfed as fast as it was
nova rover
I had stopped warriors prexpack because of how it felt, and moved to a different main tank
Had a warrior cotank and he'd go down so fast, healers couldnt keep up
lusty grotto
sounds like a bad warrior
nova rover
example on Zul it was easier to keep me at 11 stacks than him get 3
lusty grotto
we have 0 problems in uldir
nova rover
lol
steel mauve
kinda just sounds like a bad tank
lusty grotto
yup
wind cape
Will Deafening Crash still be one of our best traits even with the nerf in 8.1?
lusty grotto
yes
wind cape
word, I feel stupid running a 355 pair of shoulders just for the trait right now.
sand egret
not as stupid as if your warrior was wearing a chef outfit.... 👀
neon tangle
@nova rover Most likely he was just bad at being a warrior
neon tangle
I wonder how the raids are going to shake out in 8.1 for warriors
and if representation is still going to be super low
little rain
We're strong now and we'll only get stronger. Representation isn't necessarily an indication of strength. We have the highest skillcap and some people just enjoy the ezmode of bdk more. Keep being a strong prot boi 👍
lusty grotto
probably about the same, warriors will be able to do it fine but M+ nerds will swear by BDKs and the rest will follow whatever the guilds pushing for worldfirsts are using
sand egret
i think there's also an element of the fights themselves
if there's a solid amount of fights that favor prot, you could see a more substantial shift
lusty grotto
i mean there are fights in uldir that are absolutely perfect for us
and people still go by whatever method is using
sand egret
well first tier is diff from 2nd tier
first tier is bank on classes, and push them. They've had time and split runs so they can actually optimize their roster
lusty grotto
public perception also won't change if bad warriors continue to fail
sand egret
if it turns out warrior is a phenom for prog this time around, you bet your ass you'll see them bust it out
which could alter perception (that's how fickle it is))
little rain
Honestly it's better imo that warrior has a low skill floor and a high skill cap, makes being a better player more meaningful
sand egret
I agree, as a prot warrior, it's part of the spec that I enjoy
lusty grotto
i like the high skill cap
sand egret
but just commenting on that the content does at least, to a certain extent, influence perceived power
lusty grotto
i've said it quite a few times
neon tangle
The more I play warrior the less I really think about it in terms of skill floor/cap
The rotation is fairly easy, pressing SB every 6s is pretty straightforward, it's just soooo much more dependent on you knowing the fights really well
and I guess spending the time to know to chain your CDs with SB
sand egret
a proactive thought process is no different thatn pressing SB in terms of essentials to Prot play
one is muscle memory
the other is a mindset
neon tangle
more like: warriors are non-obvious to play well, and the game has a bad feedback cycle for letting you know that you messed up
sand egret
dying is a pretty good feedback
neon tangle
Yes, sortof, but it tends to come a long-ish time after you've messed up
sand egret
the issue is honestly that it doesn't highlight "good play" (honestly this is a problem with the binary nature of the role) enough to enforce good habits
so when you do fuck up, you can't really identify how it was different than what you did before
neon tangle
a big part of reinforcing good/bad play is having relatively immediate feedback to that play
sand egret
tanks, unfortunately, suffer from a binary product of our role and it's actually a design point they've been wrestlin with for years tbh
neon tangle
Overlapping SB + shield wall, for instance, could let you survive for that moment
The "bad" part comes in a minute or so when you need it to fill a gap
sand egret
to play devil's advocate: there is no difference in feedback with any class that overlaps cooldowns in that respect
as "opportunity cost" is rarely present at the moment its spent
neon tangle
Maybe more of a statement about 100% vs. non-100% AM uptime classes
sand egret
well that goes back to my original point
I actually think there's a super elegant solution to this problem that involves changing 0 abilities mechanically
and the answer (imho) lies in the effectiveness of Die By The Sword (or whatever that Arms defensive cooldown is)
neon tangle
?
sand egret
surfacing mitigation.
it's an inherently an "after-the-moment" thing currently, and bringing more context to when it happens would do a lot of good in the long run
the example I used is because that ability is 100% parry chance and parries have an explicit sound effect when you do it
the player is immediately aware they are parrying everything, as you hear "ting ting ting"
chilly brook
I like how we get a small change that in all honesty won’t make us that much better on PTR and people are like “WOAH WARRIOR IS GONNA BE A MONSTER IN 8.1!!!”
sand egret
vfx/sfx to further emphasize when you block, will also in turn highlight when you're not blocking
neon tangle
@chilly brook Something new? or just the same vanguard/IP/SB changes?
sand egret
right now there are sounds and shit but they need to up it way more
chilly brook
@neon tangle same@changes
Just see a lot of people coming in and being like “I heard warrior is gonna be badass in 8.1 is it true?”
neon tangle
@sand egret Would be an interesting experiment
river oracle
Until we address utility we're not going to get much more airtime in m+ i think
river oracle
The changes are nice, IP especially so, but DK is so far ahead and will likely remain
neon tangle
I use this example a lot, but I think that's (part of) why BDK is a little more idiot proof
Good feedback for when you're doing good
sick sentinel
@chilly brook "Is warrior going to be finally op so I can 2 button spam it?"
chilly brook
IP change really means little more than a smoother rotation
sand egret
oh i mean death strike has a massively apparent feedback loop haha
river oracle
There's nothing to do, of course it will be idiot proof
chilly brook
Has no real affect on our actual ability
Now if we got an IP buff....
That’d be a different story
river oracle
Anyone anticipating some heavy use of bloodsport coming up?
chilly brook
So does my 👢 🍵 👏
sand egret
well its also that 100% uptime doesn't have any actual flow to it
sick sentinel
@sand egret when u we're talking about vfx/sfx for blocking I assume u know it makes noise right? Are u saying it needs to be louder for better notification for the player
sand egret
yes that's what I'm saying
lusty grotto
bloodsport is still behind others
chilly brook
But not going to be more valuable than current
sand egret
it's needs to be surfaced and emphasized way more
river oracle
Bloodsport is good, but with the GCD i dont think it was good enough
neon tangle
@chilly brook Imagine how good people would be at prot warrior if 👢 🍵 👏 was what kept us alive
lusty grotto
it won't be better because of no-gcd
chilly brook
It won’t be any better without the gcd....
sand egret
(which is why I said it does make noise shortly after )
chilly brook
Like I said the gcd change for IP literally means nothing in the grand scheme of how good we are as tanks
river oracle
Are you walking about raiding or m+?
chilly brook
Both
sick sentinel
Nah walking
lusty grotto
doesnt matter
chilly brook
Not different enough to make a difference in either arena
neon tangle
@river oracle it's ~zero change for raiding, ~small for m+
river oracle
Oh i'm not thinking it is useful for raiding
chilly brook
I think you mean miniscule for m+
lusty grotto
BFI / IF / DC will still be better
chilly brook
The amount the gcd affects our survivability is sooooo small it’s not even worth mentioning
neon tangle
Looked at a bunch of logs from sense and people, it's like a 1-3% RPS gain, assuming it means you never cap rage
river oracle
DC is on a different tier on the new gear
river oracle
So you're not choosing over it
chilly brook
Miniscule
neon tangle
maybe 5% with extra devastates
sand egret
yeah you lost me
lusty grotto
that's the whole point of the nerf
chilly brook
That’s the point of the nerf lol
neon tangle
In some ways I don't like the new rotation either, I just hit devastate more
lusty grotto
Griff, stahp
chilly brook
As much as I wish they didn’t do it
river oracle
I'm lookin at the gear from Daz, the DC trait is on the 2nd ring not the first
chilly brook
Nimchip, stahp
sick sentinel
Until someone starts testing the protocol warrior changes in ptr with the new azerite we can only speculate
chilly brook
And it’s been nerfed so you don’t have to choose it over another
lusty grotto
👏
chilly brook
It’s been “brought in line”
river oracle
It was hugely better than everything else though
sick sentinel
Because going off assumed guesses well just ha e us be blue in the face going around trying to agrue a point we may be wrong in
chilly brook
Everyone is getting an extra ring
river oracle
The nerf was expected
chilly brook
was being the operative word
A 6 second extension isn’t all that big now
And tbh it kinda pisses me off
river oracle
No i agree, though it can near double the duration
so still more uptime is better than no uptime
sand egret
everything they've shown/indicated so far is that:
Outer tier gives you 2 spec specific options and you choose one.
2nd Tier gives you 1 per spec and a generic (like it is currently)
and this is from the PTR
river oracle
Yeah, i'm looking at the gear mined/uploaded on wowhead, so i guess i dont know if it is truly accurate
chilly brook
I mean double the regular uptime still doesn’t come close to this
sand egret
you could get DC on the outer or 2nd ring
chilly brook
And we’re not getting compensated nearly enough defensively for the loss imo
neon tangle
also napkin math for IP off the GCD: Looking at sense doing freehold 16
total rage gain for the instance: 9768, 364 wasted
75 casts of IP -> ~30% of those turn in to more shield slams, so ~337 more rage
(337+364) / 9768 = ~7% more RPS?
sand egret
repeating, of course.
sand egret
unless all of our cds are off cd
neon tangle
the 364 was rage he gained while capped
sand egret
ah
prisma crane
which actually furthers my point i made several days ago
sand egret
well, talk about a scrub 🤣 hek hek hek
prisma crane
we overcap rage in aoe
but thats only because
we dont spend any
we dont actually build it THAT fast
so IP off GCD will be far from an IP spam fest
even in heavy aoe
it's a QoL change at best
we get dick kicked with DC
we get propped back up with range block
and SB uptime
prisma crane
net, we're a bit better off than now
tbh, i care more about the dps loss from less DS uptime than the DR we get
neon tangle
no fear, you can devastate/revenge ~75 more times per dungeon
sand egret
I don't want to be in a state where DC is our fucking loot overlord. It really didn't change my gameplay at all from what I normally do and we already have so many "must haves" that I'll welcome more choice, thank ya
sand egret
so screw that
sand egret
mine?
prisma crane
yes
prisma crane
having an item is a must have is only bad when getting it is bad
sand egret
having a trait I have to use
prisma crane
if getting it is easy, there's no problem
sand egret
that I don't want to use
prisma crane
you don't have to use it
sand egret
is what feels bad
prisma crane
but hey, by that logic, stop going for haste
could use stam flasks too
and crit enchants
sand egret
that's simply taking it to the extreme mate
prisma crane
my point is, there's always a best
sand egret
obviously
prisma crane
meaning you'd still use DC even if it was .05% better
and with the changes to the rings
sand egret
the point is if the difference between the best and 2nd best is so extreme you'r literally dropping 45 ilvls to do it
prisma crane
you'll have a DC piece anyways
sand egret
that's shitty
sand egret
the scenario is that I get to rock the traits I want and its a .05% difference, not a 15%, etc.
prisma crane
the only reason we even have to consider teh 45 ilvl thing is because of the lack of reliable means to get it at a higher ilvl now
so then gear means nothing
and that's just boring altogether
may as well meld everything into vers
sand egret
lol wut
prisma crane
flat DR
sand egret
jumped the shark on me there
prisma crane
apart from DC, none of our traits are "interesting" or change gameplay
so who gives a fuck what you have anymore if they all fall under that category
lusty grotto
yeah
it's not like arms
arms also changes talents depending (i.e. EP 2x you pick Sudden Death)
we don't see any of that in prot
for the most part it's just defensive buffs
prisma crane
and all passive
lusty grotto
yup
prisma crane
i mean, yea, DC is passive too, but if you dont prioritize TC during DS uptime, you lose out on max benefit
imo the only problem with the current version of DC is that it's RNG locked and the other options are shit.
the AZ ring addition solves most of the first problem
and the nerf solves the second by making it equally boring
which is hardly a solution imo
but w/e
they had to curb something since we gain SB uptime
which helps our already strong points
we lose out on some potential additional magic DR though
sick sentinel
- It's tw 2) welcome to why I hate vengeance
sand egret
All in all, it opens up future design space and am all for it.
sick sentinel
The most new player, dumbass trap talent I've ever seen
oblique garnet
All geniouses were frowned upon on their time the mans is clearly seeing things we keep overlooking
broken kite
Unsolicited advice received badly. Let me contain my surprise
prisma crane
design space was already wide open, they could drop half our current traits in favor of better more interesting options
sand egret
Oh dammmm dude lived up to his name!
river oracle
name checked out
prisma crane
hell just bake a our T20 2p into a trait, scale it down so you can stack if you want and that's already more interesting than this shit
sick sentinel
The rage from bersker?
prisma crane
yea
sick sentinel
I'd rather have nothing if that's the option I'm supposed to be given
prisma crane
our ST rps is shit as it is
hushed cobalt
in 8.1 will vengeance still be that bad that BV beats it both hands down, or will it be closer that using vengeance isnt just awful?
prisma crane
and it allows us to use it again on anything that doesnt require fear immunity
sick sentinel
Vengeance lost its power because it's in the same row as BV
sand egret
eww
oblique garnet
Huh rage issues on st???
sick sentinel
^
sand egret
HE GONNA SLAY YOU
prisma crane
you guys realize we want rage right?
oblique garnet
You frost?
lusty grotto
yup
sick sentinel
We don't need rage
sand egret
is his friend Noobdlr?
sick sentinel
We literally have too much
lusty grotto
nah a dk
prisma crane
and our ST rage gen could actually stand for improvement.
sand egret
no like his name
sick sentinel
Not really
prisma crane
🤦
lusty grotto
Soybeanzz lol
sick sentinel
It wasn't bad ever, and it isn't bad rn
sand egret
lame
oblique garnet
He doesnt have stormbolt he wont catch you
sand egret
such cronie potential
lusty grotto
ROFL
oblique garnet
If he does tho you dead
sick sentinel
If ur lacking in rage, that's a strickly u problem
sick sentinel
Then why would we need rage gains then?
prisma crane
I'm going to introduce you to our friend IP (soon off the GCD) and our other friend, AM
prisma crane
you realize our ST rage gain is 1/3 what it was in legion right?
ocean acorn
didnt the recent ptr update put it back on the GCD
prisma crane
i never said we lacked it back then
sand egret
nope, just made its personal cd longer
prisma crane
there's a large reason people actually LIKED T20 and T21
oblique garnet
No its off gcd but it has 1 sec cd to prevent doubletapping and overcapping the ip
sick sentinel
The people who liked t20 need help, t21 was just because it gave a huge boost to damage
ocean acorn
ah i c
sand egret
havent heard from Nim...I bet he got rekt
prisma crane
oh god, ur one of those tanks, the ones that think if they are alive, they're playing perfectly, that's it
nvm how boring it can be
sick sentinel
"one of those tanks"
lusty grotto
nah im outdpsing everyone in this group lol
errant wing
prisma crane
yea, we're more interesting than other tank classes, but that's a low bar
sand egret
BUT DID YOU WIN THE DUEL?!
river oracle
We're significantly more interesting than other tank classes though
like we're actually interesting
prisma crane
and significantly less interesting than we used to be
sand egret
wooo subjective arguments!
sick sentinel
Yeah let me use t20, a shitty tier set that gives us rage. WOW AMAZING
river oracle
Though i imagine if we didn't have AM it would be a different story
lusty grotto
i cant duel in a dungeon lol
river oracle
Depends on what you define as interesting
oblique garnet
Youre bringing up rage issues on st? Which only happened on a freshly dinged character which lacked haste at this point of the expansion you should never have any rage issues on st whatsoever
sand egret
damn, I cant handle this suspense Nim....
sick sentinel
It isnt
river oracle
lower*
sick sentinel
Is it the same as legion, no. Is it worse, no
river oracle
he said lower
prisma crane
w/e, i guess we're perfect, nvm me, i'll "enjoy" this version of prot as best i can
sick sentinel
If ur, as a prot warrior, lack in rage for any reason, u need help
prisma crane
what baffles me is how you act like more rage would hurt us
sick sentinel
U shouldn't be struggling as player who is not new to prot warrior tanking with rage
chilly brook
More rage wouldn’t hurt us
prisma crane
please point out, once, where i said i was struggling
sick sentinel
If ur new that's a whole different story
chilly brook
But I fail to see how it would help us significantly
If our IP stacked more than 1.3 then by all means
oblique garnet
Well more rage wouldnt make a difference since the bar can only handle 100 and no matter how much you spend it will still be capped again when you need it
prisma crane
not in 8.1
river oracle
bring back 130 rage!
oblique garnet
Wdym not in 8.1?
chilly brook
Sure I mean 8.1 should help cut down on overcapping
oblique garnet
Because of the dc nerf?
sand egret
naw, permanent Essence of the Red case closed bois
prisma crane
you know, even if you cap IP you still benefit from AM
chilly brook
But that doesn’t really mean much
prisma crane
you still have DS up more, you have Avatar up more, you have SW and LS up more
oblique garnet
Or you know you can use revenge which also does damage
oblique garnet
Instead of overcapping ip
river oracle
por que no los dos?
prisma crane
sure, you can do that as well
sick sentinel
You can
vocal nimbus
@river oracle i got that reference
sick sentinel
This guy
prisma crane
sigh, there's no point arguing
oblique garnet
Which in turn has a chance to reset shield slam which gives you more rage
chilly brook
So ya boi got screwed
sand egret
oh dammmm
oblique garnet
Man tacobell in finland costs like 10bucks for 2 tacos
sick sentinel
No tank spot?
chilly brook
Miss my connecting flight because the original flight got delayed over an hour
sand egret
well im pretty sure Finnish Taco Bell is like 20x better haha
sick sentinel
Show them ur a mythic prot warrior raider
chilly brook
Wait over an hour in line to get a new flight but because they made me wait so long miss the last flight to my destination tonight
Sooooo I get to waste a day of vacation essentially
vocal nimbus
Krotos man, the cuphead avatar krotos was cooler
prisma crane
let's just say this, i know how to play my prot, and i know what i like and don't like about how we currently play. a lot of this is subjective, but imo, this version of prot is boring and slow as hell
sick sentinel
^
sand egret
thats how I get my plane tickets
sick sentinel
Show them ur mythic kills and aotc achieve
prisma crane
i was thinking about going back to that one @vocal nimbus
river oracle
What do you think is your best prot version of tanking?
chilly brook
They just need to make IP more potent and I’m a happy boi
river oracle
Which exp?
oblique garnet
Wotlk
vocal nimbus
Panda was ok
chilly brook
Wrath :kappa
sick sentinel
Legion/Cata
river oracle
heh
sand egret
man, going Blood Elf changes a dude...
chilly brook
Everything was better in Wrath
river oracle
Personally preferred BC, had more silo'd tanking roles
prisma crane
I enjoyed Legion T20+, but my favorite was MoP, but that's for different reasons, also we had a lot of tools at our disposal
river oracle
Plus you'd get weird with gear by late game
chilly brook
Totally not talking from nostalgia here
lusty grotto
dang
chilly brook
Although to be fair, the post pre-patch and post t21 update was really enjoyable
lusty grotto
youre right
lusty grotto
he's a noobslayr tho
sand egret
dude is an icon
lusty grotto
he pressed execute once
sand egret
im specing Veng in solidarity
sand egret
🤔
chilly brook
🤔
lusty grotto
back to the good ole prot execute days
chilly brook
I would love to have that back
prisma crane
and as much fun as topping aoe is atm, it's super boring the way we go about it
lusty grotto
execute would be interesting for sure if its back in this iteration
though i'm not sure if it would be fun after a while
i mean i guess its fun outdpsing everyone else on execute range except other warriors lol
prisma crane
provided you have the rage to keep that up
hushed cobalt
dual wield shields, or 2h+shield. give me the dreamsicle
prisma crane
last time we had execute we got better rfdt
chilly brook
I mean I like the way we go about destroying the aoe chart
lusty grotto
yeah that's true rage management would be huge there
chilly brook
But hey
sand egret
Executing Shout: Shout so loudly that all enemies under 25% just get rekt and die
chilly brook
I guess I’m just a dumb mongo
prisma crane
its just TC every other global
oblique garnet
I wonder how bad would it be to tank +10 with these
chilly brook
And?
sand egret
DO IT
chilly brook
I personally like it, it feels satisfying
lusty grotto
haha Late
prisma crane
and feels stupid in ST
sand egret
fucking get in there and Ravage that shit
lusty grotto
the ultimate meme build
chilly brook
That’s like, your opinion, man
prisma crane
if it buffed SS as well i'd be more interested
if it buffed it the same way i think it may be too much for ST
but 100% CDR and 50% more dmg or something would be better
chilly brook
So t21 lul
Acting like spamming SS every global is any better than spamming TC every other global 🤔
oblique garnet
imagine
prisma crane
one provides substantially more rage, not to mention that i still had the option to use TC or revenge during BC in aoe
oblique garnet
SS off gcd
sick sentinel
Throw ur shield on the ground like a child throwing a temper trantrum with their toys
oblique garnet
with TC
chilly brook
I hope the irony of your statement isn’t lost on you Krotos
prisma crane
whereas missing TC during avatar is just a waste
steel mauve
very interesting spamming SS for 5 seconds
lusty grotto
oh
prisma crane
the fun of T21 had a lot more to do with AM than it did with SS spam
chilly brook
Again the fact that you’re ok with SS spam and not TC spam is ironic af
lusty grotto
i can't reply, hes not currently playing 😦
prisma crane
at the end of the day i just want more rage gen, TC giving 5 rage is w/e
prisma crane
make TC 10 rage, then im fine
lusty grotto
i guess i'm done man lol
sand egret
hang it up
chilly brook
Again more rage is essentially not worth having at current iteration
lusty grotto
deleting this mage forever
chilly brook
Not until IP actually gets its stacking buffed
sand egret
might as well delete your warrior tbh
lusty grotto
yeah for sure
sand egret
you’ll never live up to@jom
prisma crane
except we were capping IP in legion too and it was still worth doing
because of AM
something they should just make baseline anyways
lusty grotto
also rip nimchipadin
sand egret
to him* man Im glad there’s no one named “jom” in here.
chilly brook
Our rage generation in legion was because we needed to cap IP
And it actually served a purpose
prisma crane
we did not need to cap IP
sand egret
coulda been awkwarddo
prisma crane
not regularly
chilly brook
IP was designed to be stacked far higher in legion
Hence we needed the rage to support that
primal crypt
😂
vocal nimbus
But it wasnt mandatory
chilly brook
IP is capped at 1.3 now
prisma crane
it was more like the cap was there because it was possible to actually hit it
we gained a lot more rage
chilly brook
So having rage generation like legion wouldn’t be helpful
prisma crane
if we didnt have AM i would agree
chilly brook
You’re missing the point
prisma crane
idk why you keep skipping over that
oblique garnet
Again use revenge for am
chilly brook
I’m not skipping over it
prisma crane
IP works differently now, 50% makes it last longer
sigh
i'm done, we're perfect, mitigation gods, we need nothing and the class plays perfectly
chilly brook
Change IP to stack more and I’m with you
oblique garnet
Im not saying the class plays perfectly
chilly brook
But as it is I don’t see much benefit to increasing rage generation
oblique garnet
im saying we dont need more rage gain on ST
vocal nimbus
Tbf rage gen at ST is barely enough
oblique garnet
You all sitting on fucking 20% haste or smth?
lusty grotto
cmon guys its ok that Krotos has an opinion
chilly brook
That’s more of a rage normalization problem than anything
I didn’t say it wasn’t ok for him to have an opinion
runic gust
Is Ignore Pain off the GCD yet?
prisma crane
explain rage normalization without saying that our rage gen in ST is low
oblique garnet
@runic gust 8.1
runic gust
Ah.
outer dew
opinions don't exist
chilly brook
However the difference between our aoe rage generation and st is rather drastic
I won’t deny that
prisma crane
it's not even that drastic
steel mauve
i feel like my rage gen single target isnt low, but it probably differes from person to person
chilly brook
^
prisma crane
it's that one of our spenders is almost always free
lusty grotto
yeah i do agree ST rage gen is a bit weird
and i do agree that free revenges are stupid
prisma crane
and that we usually pair aoe with Avatar which is mostly generator spam anyways
our aoe rage gen is still a fraction of our ST in legion
and i dont even need legion levels
liek you said, it'd be more wasted now than it was then
chilly brook
I think people just prefer different play styles
prisma crane
that much is apparent
lusty grotto
that's likely the case
prisma crane
that's why no one is playing prot
chilly brook
Krotos from what I gather wants a much more fast paced class
I personally like the slower pace
neon tangle
FWIW I tried tanking in legion and I found the IP spamming pretty un-fun
lusty grotto
i can do both honestly
prisma crane
the appeal to warrior tanks is that we've always been fast paced
oblique garnet
how is warrior slow paced? o.O
prisma crane
for me
neon tangle
In the same way I'm kinda bummed about IP going back off the GCD
chilly brook
Yes the fact that warrior plays slower is the reason it’s not that popular /s
prisma crane
to me, current warrior feels about as fast paced as arms
neon tangle
I'm gonna be spamming even more
prisma crane
ur not going to be spamming that much more @neon tangle
chilly brook
Totally not down to the fact that BrM and Blood are broken and prot requires more effort to be comparable
prisma crane
we dont have the rage to support it
chilly brook
🤔
lusty grotto
idk man, execute spam with those sweet RA stacks after CS fades is pretty ridiculously fast\
sure youre only pressing 2 keys
oblique garnet
Well youre probably running into rage issues because you prioritize capping ip over using revenge which has chance to proc your free rage gen
lusty grotto
but those gcds lol
hushed cobalt
Prot warriors are fantastic, just like the person(s) who can help me with my logs! (I tried being more defensive than offensive)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Dt1JrcXPnkzxVvZM#fight=1&type=summary
prisma crane
trust me, i hit revenge
lusty grotto
it looks like you blocked 66% of melee hits, well done @hushed cobalt
chilly brook
I’m not goin to try to convince you that prot is perfect
But strawmanning doesn’t help win anyone over to your side in terms of opinions
hushed cobalt
Why tanks! I think I goofed a bit into the Fetid fight, cause I went from taking little damage to thrashes to taking alot
neon tangle
I think there's a few spots where you overlapped SB + last stand
prisma crane
as someone who's exclusively played prot, knowing where we've been and how we've felt, im not happy with our current state (excluding balance issues, idc if we're near the bottom if we're fun to play)
chilly brook
And that’s fine
prisma crane
and that's just my stance
chilly brook
Just don’t strawman
hushed cobalt
@neon tangle yes, very yes. I gotta get better at not SB while stand is up. I even have the SB/Bolster weak aura
prisma crane
yes, slow prot isnt the exclusive reason we have shit tier representation
lusty grotto
that's fine, there's room for improvement there Tsar
chilly brook
Always room for improvement
😉
@primal crypt its a form of logical fallacy, you set up an argument that no one was making and attack it
neon tangle
outside of that, seems fine
hushed cobalt
😄 I primarily heal(disc) but like tanking (was VDH in legion, and liked the TC spam + aoe damage aspect of warrior)
I also like not being THAT tank thats a sponge
oblique garnet
i need to start using pots to get those 100 parses
neon tangle
You also capped rage a couple times
hushed cobalt
with the coming no GCD on IP, that will happen less i think
neon tangle
p much, all in all you wasted like 4% of your rage, not really a huge deal
chilly brook
It definitely should help
prisma crane
it'll also help people have no rage for SB when they need it
cant wait for that to be the next major problem
silk belfry
I Agree that prot warrior needs to be faster paced and IP off the GCD is going to be a good thing.
sand egret
see: Griff's YouTube buddy
chilly brook
lavish oracle
Worse how? Our rage gen will stay the same
The only way you could make it worse is by spending rage on IP before SB
prisma crane
easier to hit IP before SB
sand egret
that's exactly what I'm saying haha
chilly brook
Because healers can deal with melee damage because it’s “consistent”
sand egret
it's just easier to do that with it being off teh GCD
prisma crane
yea but that's a cherry picked idiot
most people make that mistake for far more understandable reasons
sand egret
to be fair, it's youtube comments. Less cherry picking and more literally every comment
neon tangle
3/4 warriors I've pugged with are that cherry picked idiot apparently
prisma crane
like not preparing for needing the SB up
silk belfry
We need more Rage Gen too, a lot more, I would also appreciate that total points that IP absorbs stacks COMPLETELY.
sand egret
and we're back
prisma crane
they have to put a cap on IP otherwise ppl will just OT until they have 20M IP and just take 50% less damage permanently
sand egret
now to try and crush a +10 with a meme build
neon tangle
FWIW I'm on the side of enjoying the slower paced-ness
silk belfry
There is a Timer for IP Krotos
Once that timer goes off its gone so that argument doesn't make sense
prisma crane
it's a lot easier to keep that timer up than it is to build IP
hushed cobalt
I think the only additional rage gen needed, would be making SS procs while SS isn't on CD give more rage and do more damage
silk belfry
The IP build depletes quickly
prisma crane
sad, what tank did you play in legion, JW
neon tangle
Did not play in legion 😛
silk belfry
Increasing timer will not be beneficial
neon tangle
tried prot, quit lol
chilly brook
I think there’s room enough in the talent tree with dead talents to supply both the fast warrior camp and slow warrior camp with the playstyles they desire, it’s just a matter of blizz actually doing so
silk belfry
Yeah I might do that too if 8.1 doesn't change the spec enough
neon tangle
Legion in general did not appeal to me, felt like blizzard just kept adding lots and lots of random shit to keep the power curve growing
silk belfry
I'll wait and see
chilly brook
It’s just going to make us more sturdy outside of block and make the rotation slightly more smooth
prisma crane
well Legion was far better than BFA imo
hushed cobalt
Change Impending Victory to a combination of nerfed Victory Rush + Vampiric Speed
lavish oracle
What does hypothetical fast warrior v. slow warrior look like? Is the current meta build fast or slow warrior?
silk belfry
I agree with you on that Krotos
chilly brook
While I enjoyed legion prot
silk belfry
This slow warrior shit is for Mungos and Grognars imo
prisma crane
current warrior is the slowest its been in several xpacs @lavish oracle
neon tangle
@prisma crane I'm generally more of a fan of bfa classes, I think blizz nailed it in a lot of places
chilly brook
My wrist likes BFA far better
silk belfry
I agree with Krot again
neon tangle
But I enjoy simplicity, etc
lavish oracle
But not by much, my actual actions per minute has dropped but not super significantly
raw oracle
we honestly don't need that much tweaked - our biggest issue (including what 8.1 is showing atm) is really our mastery being as rng as it is - buff rage gen and make IP stack and you're talking about a truly busted spec
prisma crane
it's probably cut in half @lavish oracle
lavish oracle
The only class that beats me is rogue and they cheat
prisma crane
considering you could effectively spam IP while doing your full rotation, on top of having all CDs off GCD
neon tangle
MOBAs (imho) do a good job of exposing a relatively large amount of complexity and interaction w/o having a ton of abilities
silk belfry
Throw the Rogue down the well
neon tangle
lots of abilities build off of each other, flow together, etc
prisma crane
yea, WoW shouldnt be a MOBA
lusty grotto
why do people want IP buffs so much while dismissing mastery? LOL
prisma crane
IP is controlled, crit block is RNG
raw oracle
the mastery has and will continue to be our biggest issue atm - it's strong when it procs
silk belfry
@lusty grotto Because they have no idea what to give us for a new Mastery and IP seems like a more realistic goal at this moment in time.
silk belfry
Hahaha
prisma crane
crit blocks are a blast, but IP works better than them
chilly brook
Well I’m sorry that you guys don’t like the current prot
lusty grotto
i'd rather have Heroic Strike back
neon tangle
@prisma crane More just saying that I think blizz should be capable of building classes that feel good w/o 50 buttons being part of the rotation
silk belfry
Hey if we get something better than IP I don't mind
hushed cobalt
Mastery gives us block chance, which (me thinks) is covered by SB.
Make mastery increase chance of crit blocks only?
silk belfry
I would rather have a self heal really.
prisma crane
or maybe having niche abilities isnt a bad thing is more what im saying
sand egret
WM +10 with a meme build
chilly brook
Self heal
sand egret
LAWD HAVE MERCY
chilly brook
Lul
prisma crane
see exhibit A: MoP
oblique garnet
i Would do one but i only have +14 key which i kinda want to time
chilly brook
DK is that way>>>>>>>>>>>>
sand egret
here we goooo
lusty grotto
people want to absorb 90% of damage again /sigh
silk belfry
It can HOT @chilly brook I know you mungos like it slow
prisma crane
most people look back fondly at MoP, the era of having tons of abilities where skill could shine
raw oracle
90% doesn't really do anything for us, just makes us spikier to heal
raw oracle
50% actually flattens it out for us so we're easier to heal
lusty grotto
right @raw oracle
river oracle
@hushed cobalt Mastery when it first released would change the extra % blocked to critical block chance. So 125% block chance would add 25% chance to crit block.
chilly brook
Nah dude this mongo actually likes being dependent on a healer
silk belfry
No profile pics = blizzard devs
sand egret
O_O
prisma crane
i dont want to be self sustaining, but i'd like options, even if baked into longer CDs that allow us to recover
river oracle
yep totes
silk belfry
I don't mind if we can self-sustain, many of the traits and trinkets we get are self sustain ones, so it seems to be a mechanical necessity on some level.
prisma crane
i never used the bracers in legion unless i was doing a 24+ key
we didnt need the self heal
lavish oracle
I wish they'd move Impending Victory to a support tier
silk belfry
90% reduction from IP helped that
prisma crane
DK were STILL better in dungeons and whatnot, but now if a healer dies we're dead
100%
silk belfry
IDK why blizzard just didn't keep us as we were at end of legion?
neon tangle
@prisma crane re: niche abilities, I'm 50/50 on it, I think there's an interesting middle ground to be found, but I imagine if you really enjoyed legion.... we probably just have different things that we want 😛
prisma crane
as much as i loved legion at the end, it was, for gameplay purposes, a bit much
same with MoP vengeance, i LOVED it, but i know why it's gone
and us at end of legion was probably the class that had the most APM
neon tangle
I think for me having an overwhelming number of abilities is like staring at a giant board of buttons in a car
The thing I want to do is drive, not fiddle
prisma crane
so we got hit harder than anyone with the GCD meme of BFA
raw oracle
honestly, if they dropped IP, and gave us a mastery that created a shield based on rage spent to replace it (since it's essentially what happens with IP anyway) - cut a second or two off our SB i think we'd be pretty set - get rid of RNG mastery, clear up some GCD space, and make our mastery mean something more than "yeah maybe i crit here" - our rage gen isn't really that bad, and if we're saving a gcd from IP it'd help
silk belfry
Everything comes with a petpeve, it's the way of the world, you just gotta choose which ones you want to live with for the benefits they give.
oblique garnet
And they are reverting majority of those changes from legion
silk belfry
and with that I am off
silk belfry
Back to little lamplight for me
oblique garnet
the charge gcd fucks up more than the ip gcd
prisma crane
but why not have traction control for going off road, and spiked tires for ice, and extra high beams for dark roads, etc
you dont need them all the time, but knowing when to use them makes you a better driver
chilly brook
¯_(ツ)_/¯
I quite enjoy current prot and don’t intend on playing anything else at the moment
oblique garnet
Out of curiosity you all say prot plays slowly whats your avg cpm per boss?
prisma crane
and i hope they make changes that disappoint you then, it's about all i can add
raw oracle
i'm going to keep playing prot as well - been that way since vanilla :p
chilly brook
Why would you hope that?
Why wouldn’t you hope that they actually overhaul our talent tree to satisfy both camps?
prisma crane
not a point against you, but that i dont like how we play and i want it changed
i mean yea
that'd be extra perfect
neon tangle
I'd prolly be happier if I could take devastator, etc
prisma crane
but WoW 3 will be out before that shit happens
@oblique garnet whatever my GCD is
- a bit for SB and stuff
neon tangle
@chilly brook I think the talents allowing a more passive vs. active setup would be nifty
chilly brook
It’d be a good refactor for a dead talent tree
prisma crane
the issue is that one will always be better
so one camp will still be upset
that said
an effort to get it to work would be nicer than leaving ravager as an "option"
neon tangle
@prisma crane If it was pretty close, or a tradeoff, people would consider it
chilly brook
Furious slash is technically better but not a lot of people use it
neon tangle
like blood drinker vs. heartbreaker on BDK
prisma crane
but idc about people, i care about what's best, and random ppl who want to improve will just emulate the best players anyways
chilly brook
When it’s less than a 1% difference....
It hardly matters
And there are examples of classes with exactly that
prisma crane
to make talents bridge the gap for snails and cheetahs, you'd have to have an ability shit on the other version to make either/or work and that's jsut a strange design
lusty grotto
i wasn't scrolled down again
neon tangle
also a lot of classes can swap to a specific non-passive utility for a fight where it's useful
similar to swapping in snow tires I guess lol
neon tangle
i.e. rune tap vs. will of the necropolis
sometimes you want that control, sometimes you don't
chilly brook
Huuuuuuggggeeee haste difference, barely ahead in real practice
prisma crane
i'm referring to the difference between 2 actions per global average and 1, not a 1 per global and waiting for something else
chilly brook
Since when did we have two actions per global average?
neon tangle
red thirst vs. purgatory also kinda falls in the to active vs. passive fold
brb guys, rerolling BDK
prisma crane
between spamming IP, SS, SB, DS, BC, TC, revenge, etc, we probably came fairly close
i can say 1.46346545 and 1 if that makes it better
chilly brook
Well why don’t we look at logs to see if that was really the case
prisma crane
the point is having stuff that's regularly used that is off GCD
lusty grotto
but isn't that every class problem right now?
chilly brook
So ~60 cpm on Zek vs ~90cpm on felhounds
prisma crane
that's a substantial difference
chilly brook
Slower for sure
chilly brook
But not an average of 2 casts per gcd
And our CPM should go up drastically with IP off gcd mind you
prisma crane
not really
a bit, yes
but we dont have teh rage to support it going up "drastically"
chilly brook
No it’d be somewhat substantial
prisma crane
how many times did you cast IP on that Zek
chilly brook
23 casts
prisma crane
and how long was the fight
chilly brook
5m
prisma crane
4.6cpm
chilly brook
But you’re basically adding an extra 23 casts
prisma crane
assuming always filled with something else
chilly brook
We have Devastate there’s no reason it shouldn’t be
uncut valve
hey guys is someone here playing multiple tank specs and has an opinion which is the most fun? I like my prot warr and aim to improve and just leveld a BrM alt which I've played some raids and M+ on but actually prefer my prot warr playstyle. The BrM seems kind of passive besides utility.. the only reactionary thing that takes thought is to purify?
prisma crane
if you enjoy having your "skill" shine through your gameplay, you'll get better results with a warrior
chilly brook
I find prot the most fun
raw oracle
BrM is faceroll - if you don't want to think when you tank, play that - if you want decisions to matter, play warr, or almost anything besides BrM tbh
prisma crane
if you enjoy being invited to groups, you'll get better results with a monk
prisma crane
if you always play with the same people, then play whichever you prefer and may likely enjoy warrior more if you prefer the engagement
raw oracle
what i've noticed so far though with most of the changes that are coming with 8.1 and the design they seem to be going with, is that they're just lowering the skill floor to playing prot - none of these things are substantial buffs or anything (and frankly we don't need them) - what they seem to be doing is making the class easier to play - which is nice but for people who just don't enjoy the class it won't change anything for them - if it's too slow of a spec for you, chances are it's going to stay that way after 8.1 even with the IP change bc while our cpm will go up, you're right in that we don't have the rage to push out another 15+ cpm off of it
astral crystal
i think the -2 secs off sb's recharge is also going to compensate for not having reorg array
prisma crane
prot's never been that difficult to play anyways, we just get more forgiveness for suboptimal SB management
raw oracle
so in reality, none of the tanks are hard to play or ever have been truly - but i will say a bad warrior is easier to point out than a bad monk
prisma crane
yes
raw oracle
so what they're doing is attempting to bring that baseline closer together and make it easier to play
prisma crane
but only because while both can make the same mistakes, one just telegraphs the results better while the other almost doesnt show it at all
which is almost jsut as bad if not worse for monks than it is for us
just with the benefit of being good in the process (for them)
raw oracle
it might be worse for someone trying to get better at monk, they have to analyze their logs more - bc if you mess up as prot, you FEEL it lol - but as far as playability it's certainly not worse for monks bc all people see is the tank didn't fall over
prisma crane
well
tbh it's the worst for already good monks, since you gain little for your play
uneven mason
well
TBH its the worst for good warriors, because you only gain "status quo" for amazing play
if you're a monk literally no one gives a fuck if you're good or bad but you
prisma crane
yea, bad in different ways
uneven mason
if you're a warrior folks will take the fist time you fuck up to dismiss your spec
prisma crane
personally i just try to climb WCL when i play so idc that much, i just want to be the best warrior that i can, would be the same as a monk if i played it
idc that bad warriors look bad, i do care that good warriors dont excel as much as we could
but we're certainly not bad
particularly regarding raid tanking
raw oracle
that's essentially what Mactier was getting at it seems
uneven mason
we're really good for raid tanking
raw oracle
but yeah raid tanking we're fine - particularly any huge physical fight - we really can even a lot of the physical inc - it's the magic that gets us but that's most tanks atm
neon tangle
tbh we're fairly fine on magic too, I don't think it's any real mechanic that punishes us -when we are played well-
prisma crane
or fights where our CD timing is off
raw oracle
but really, any tank that is played well is fine atm in raids - and non-necrotic weeks this tier, i've loved warrior
in M+
which fight is our CD timing off?
prisma crane
im just saying as an example, but i suppose that affects anyone
neon tangle
My theory is more this: When a DK or BrM messes up, the healers have a chance to fix the problem, healing when the DK should have death striked, etc
when a warrior messes up on thrash or w/e, they get gibbed
uneven mason
^^^
prisma crane
well that and
uneven mason
Well
that is whats "wrong" with warrior in a nutshell, if we screw up, we have low EHP - no time for healer to react
oblique garnet
necrotic aint bad
prisma crane
our best oh shit button is now a rotational ability
oblique garnet
grievious is
prisma crane
SW is kinda worthless when we've already dipped
uneven mason
I don't use SW rotationally tbh
uneven mason
We don't have an O shit button lol
raw oracle
grievous can be aids but i have to eat on all of my tanks in between atm anyway so grievous is w/e lol
prisma crane
if im at 2% hp
uneven mason
like using SW at 20% mean's you've already bit it
uneven mason
right
uneven mason
I'll be honest my haste is high enough now that I've stopped using LS rotationally
that'll change on Fetid
but for Zek and Vectis
raw oracle
yeah fetid is the one boss i can say i still use LS in the rotation
uneven mason
I'm ok eating some raw armor (plus DS) hits
if it means I have LS available for combo or if I have to stand in darkness
that being said, if LS was made standard 2min
neon tangle
If we're talking about the warrior changes from a community perception point of view: They can't really address the EHP situation w/o making is insanely OP
It's just fundamental to how they designed the class
so shitty warriors are going to keep getting gibbed
and shitty DKs/BrMs will continue to crutch on healers
prisma crane
its not the shitty warriors that make us look as bad as the nearly complete absence of warriors at the top
raw oracle
i think the 5% arm/stam from vanguard will do some to assist that - but honestly all classes get gibbed if they mess up in the back half of the fetid fight - you need something up for them
uneven mason
Well the extremely punishing window is much smaller come 8.1 sadbox
prisma crane
reflective plating needs to come back
uneven mason
yeah the Vanguard buff (again) with a shorter SB cooldown is going to make us more forgiving
IP off the GCD will make us easier to play as well
which shouldsolve some community perception
prisma crane
VR off GCD would also do wonders in M+
uneven mason
basically if you've been good at prot since launch, you're not going to really feel the changes
prisma crane
that also solves the self heal thing ppl want without really changing a lot
neon tangle
@raw oracle sorta-kinda, DK/BrM can definitely take a thrash w/o getting one-shot
uneven mason
if you'rea flipperhanded monkey, you might just feel like you have thumbs
oblique garnet
nr 1 allstar tank on wcl is actually prot warrior
uneven mason
BDK is designed for thrash
uneven mason
they can have easy 100% uptime on theri AM
prisma crane
that's not how all star works though Late
oblique garnet
Thats on all tanks
prisma crane
it just means that within his class, he's at the top more often
i'll emphasize, "within his class"
uneven mason
Sensewat
raw oracle
that's not even remotely true - my 375 DK without an armor or shield up gets fackin rekt - i know this bc i'm fucking terrible at BDK lol
prisma crane
Boost
oblique garnet
yeah
prisma crane
prot could ACTUALLY be the worst tank by miles
neon tangle
@raw oracle When you say armor, do you mean boneshield?
raw oracle
yeah that one
prisma crane
but if he gets rank 1 on all fights, he'll show as the top tank on all star
neon tangle
That is.... the easiest thing in the world to keep up
uneven mason
Boneshield on Thrash, you can literally press it every 15 seconds and never drop below 5 stacks
its just heartstrike spam until the cows come home
neon tangle
^^^^
uneven mason
always enough RP for 2x Deathstrikes
meanig you need nearly no external healing
BDK is designed for THrash tanking lol
"Oh a huge burst of damage that only happens every 6 second? MMMM SOUNDS HARD"
raw oracle
the point is, if you don't have your stuff up you're going to die - yeah it's boss af at thrash tanking, but if it's not using it's stuff it will actually get gibbed like any other tank not using their defensive abilities
uneven mason
I Mean, monks still get gibbed, they're just easier to heal
prisma crane
gibbed =/= dead though