now DS will cap at 14
#protection
regal island
fathom marten
You didn't ask if we knew about our ccurrent placement in top tier guilds
regal island
so it's gonna be about a 4.5 sec loss on demo
solid quail
Thank you
junior igloo
We don't know, @solid quail
ionic fern
Just wait a week and watch the "Class representation in top guilds" Fin. 😉
zinc mauve
if you want a more accurate measurement on Demo shout dps/survivability loss, it mostly applies to bosses firstly, since most groups of mobs are going to be done in 30 seconds, most you would be able to squeeze out from DC in its current state is just a few more seconds over 16 seconds
stone crag
it was a dumb question to begin with
- you already had the answer you were looking for
- it's PTR so nothing is final
- With the current state of tank balancing that's a fucking fever dream
zinc mauve
unless you bloodlust on trash packs for some ungodly reason
solid quail
No I asked a question and instead got the standard "that's not the right question" might as well have asked stackoverflow haha.
Cheers, just wanted an honest best answer coz a mate quit over the class being ass
fathom marten
Are you in a top tier guild @solid quail ? Do you need to be a "top tier" tank according to progression mythic raiding?
ornate sky
plus you can use ignore pain during TC+ShieldBash/Revenge under avatar
fathom marten
@solid quail Friend probably just doesn't know how to play his class
vale gorge
@solid quail you asked a question, and when you got a response you assumed the person responding was being dishonest
so stop acting like a victim
regal island
bottom line DS uptime will drop ~20%
ornate sky
ignore pain going 0gcd is a huge buff to those periods of stretching DS out... have so much rage during those times and no GCD to use them
static lance
What's the uptime on SB going to look like?
regal island
demo uptime will be more like 50% with DC trait
zinc mauve
the DC nerf should be looked at from the uptime percentage over an entire fight; in its current state, the average prot warrior tanking in a raid can keep DS up about 50-70% of the time, im going to say its 70% of the time just for the sake of it; lets assume 4 casts over a 2 minute fight (30 second time period between each demo shout thanks to anger management)
8.1 PTR (not final) version of DC makes demo shout last 14 (8+6) seconds assuming you get your claps off... which you should; assuming the same scenario as before with 4 casts over 2 minutes ,you get 4*14 = 56 seconds which is 46~% uptime
regal island
not 70+
static lance
1sec CD reduction doesnt look like much, but i'm not sure how that interacts with Haste
zinc mauve
70% is if you're a fucking god and have a boatload of haste
junior igloo
@static lance
From 40 % to 45 %
ornate sky
its 2sec CD zak
regal island
71% uptime on that fight ^^^^^
static lance
Oh cool
zinc mauve
of course it isnt, but your not going ot achieve that every single fight
static lance
I assume that HR is still not competitive with AM, then?
stone crag
correct
ornate sky
AM will be slightly stronger with new IP
regal island
but basically assume average 4.5 sec less duration on DS from the new DC vs the old DC
solid quail
Ok, sorry you're right guys, another question then, has your class objectively been shat on the most by blizzard
fathom marten
@zinc mauve I think using 70% is a bad example. Since people will use extremes wrong.
fathom marten
😃
static lance
honestly, since I play M+ exclusively, I dont really need high DS uptime. A lowered DS cooldown is more valuable.
zinc mauve
but even if you use 70%, its a 30% loss in uptime from 70 to 40%
static lance
and I guess off-GCD IP will help that more.
zinc mauve
with the SB buff, the change only really affects magic damage heavy encounters
solid quail
An honest warrior
fathom marten
@static lance and blocking ranged. That will probably help a lot in m+ since we have no grip
regal island
nah it's more like going 70% to 50%
zinc mauve
im just using 40% as an example because 46% is one of the better case scenarios
stone crag
so did thyme @timid jay
regal island
loose about 55 sec of DS on a 5 min fight with ~12 DS casts
zinc mauve
unless you are comparing best case to best case, which is fair in that case
timid jay
Who is this Thyme
stone crag
¯_(ツ)_/¯
timid jay
@thyme
stone crag
:thyme:
raven kernel
I raid as arms and m+ as prot ¯_(ツ)_/¯
static lance
wouldn't the IP change help with magic-heavy encounters? sure, Rage gen will still be a problem, but you could have IP more reliably
zinc mauve
ip change helps with encounters where you rage cap
fathom marten
Honestly it may be a nerf but its a trade off for better SB uptime and IP being less punishing to hit.
sick sentinel
Ok so I gotta ask because with the new R.IO update I get to see peoples raiding progress, and holy shit I am seeing very little kills on Mythax/Ghuun but a crap ton on Mythic Taloc/Mother. Is something going on with the last two bosses on heroic?
zinc mauve
it helps with magic heavy encounters, but only a little
it just lets you eek off another spell when you would have nromally used that GCD for IP
raven kernel
M Taloc and mother are puggable
timid jay
I'm not entirely up to speed on the changes but are there any rage generation changes yet?
raven kernel
H mythrax and ghuun aren't
sick sentinel
Why is that?
regal island
yeah mother is just POP all healing cd's cross barrier then survive 3 min and do it again.
sick sentinel
Shouldnt they be more harder?
ember arrow
@timid jay cosmo is ONE OF US
timid jay
ONE OF US
ornate sky
some other tanks got their ranged tanking nerfed heavily though
zinc mauve
the encounters are incredibly simple compared to other fights; none of them require tank swapping
fathom marten
Mother just requires some communication. Taloc is like the easiest boss in history
raven kernel
Less raid coordination required
zinc mauve
you can honeslty 1 tank taloc
timid jay
yeah I quit the game and wasn't active anymore
regal island
seems like they are keeping rage gen linked to haste so it's just gonna go up
timid jay
Idm getting demoted
ember arrow
Bfa btw
zinc mauve
every other tank in the instance (except mother maybe) requires 2 tanks minimum
ember arrow
No
raven kernel
Fuck levkos here
ember arrow
Yes
sick sentinel
That is so odd, i honestly thought id see a lot more kills on mythrax, he seems really easy to deal with even on heroic
ember arrow
Love you too
sick sentinel
Ghuun i can kinda get but not really
raven kernel
Kappa
regal island
but yeah SB changes are meant to balance the demo changes imo
block more, shout less
timid jay
Fwiw
fathom marten
What
zinc mauve
idk if anyone else has this issue, but in my guild, when we do mythrax with our 10 man raid, theres about a 20% chance someone gets bugged in one of the orbs
fathom marten
I hate mythrax
zinc mauve
the bug makes us wipe more than the actual boss
sick sentinel
Ur lucky
timid jay
Marok did some napkin math and it seems to be a overall buff
sick sentinel
I get pinged the most of our raid with ruin
timid jay
The big thing you guys are missing is control
zinc mauve
its only a nerf in mdmg heavy boss fights
fathom marten
Highest wipes on normal and heroic diff for my guild.
sick sentinel
I have so little uptime on mythax to dps i actually just sit in a corner and wait for the phase 2
regal island
yeah not glued to a az piece with DC anymore
timid jay
You can't control too much when you get those long DS outside of avatar
zinc mauve
otherwise, the ptr changes are an overall very solid buff
raven kernel
I'm not too fussed about dc nerf tbh
fathom marten
Neither am i
zinc mauve
it was going to get nerfed either way, or at the very least, other traits would have gotten buffed to be in line with it
timid jay
But shorter SB recharge is going to be massive for ease of playing
sick sentinel
I mean who care at the end about that nerf
fathom marten
Though, its more of a nerf then I initially thought.
zinc mauve
i cant believe blizzard killed the rock meme
raven kernel
It's fairly negligible on bosses with tank swap mechanics
regal island
well it free's me up to use dragon roar more too i guess
more rage and IP off GCD it all adds up
zinc mauve
excuse me but you misspelled R A V A G E R
fathom marten
The thing is. We should look at this practically speaking. DC is a trait. We received buffs to our baseline abilities and passive tankyness. That's a damn good thing. 👌
regal island
eh ravager only works if you use an equip 2h weapon macro
raven kernel
IT IS
regal island
then it's actually kinda good
raven kernel
I'm happy with changes
timid jay
Yikes
zinc mauve
can you change weapons mid combat?
timid jay
Yes
zinc mauve
what the fuck
regal island
no one notices you can equip a 2h weapon in combat then ravager for pretty nice damage
then swap back
raven kernel
Not in m+ right
timid jay
So the only place where it would have mattered
sick sentinel
Make you think u have choice
timid jay
Nice
regal island
makes zul kinda fun with it when you outdamage the dps
zinc mauve
everyone here talking about their thunderclaps, but no one talks about the elusive RANGED WARRIOR, heroic throw for maximum dps
sick sentinel
You mean those elitist mythic raider shit lords
zinc mauve
who needs melee when you have infinite axes
raven kernel
Yo infinite axes actually useful on h mythrax
regal island
use the bladestorm trinket for maximum WTF did this prot warrior do.
sick sentinel
So use it on zul and zek
regal island
people always freak out when you drop ravager then start bladestorming at the same time for lulz
sick sentinel
since those are the only two real places u can see its benefit
@regal island you know whats better than that, using bladestorm with DBS as arm in KR
regal island
soo much fun on zul & mythrax though, no orbs or fear on me all due to an old ilvl200 trinket
sick sentinel
Ive freaked people the fuck out
vale gorge
I've been going through my logs, and saw that usually after DS I would only be able to increase the duration by 3 TCs (6s) without Avatar up anyway. So the DC trait nerf only really affects uptime on DS if I'm using it in combination with Avatar, and that's when I'm at low risk of dying anyway
raven kernel
You mean the room?
sick sentinel
Yup
raven kernel
I have to yell everytime THAT'S NOT MY BLADESTORM
ornate sky
deafening crash being weakened isn't too bad because we're so good under DS, we can afford to lose a little bit of that survivability to buff the times we're not under DS
regal island
yeah yelling warrior feels too much like the old d2 shout barbs
ornate sky
obviously theres more time out of DS now, but its nowhere near as scary
sick sentinel
There is nothing more satisfying then seeing ur tank/healer pop cds because they think ur bladestorm is not the npcs bladestorm
ornate sky
haha true
regal island
lemme just equip my 2x +3 warcry weapons
sick sentinel
Always leaves me in tears
regal island
then i'll buffs us
i'm getting kinda curious on the actual math of AM vs HR with the changes though
solid quail
6/8 mythic uldir representation:
Prot warriors: 1.4%
Blood, Brew, Protadin: ~4-5%
Guardians are almost on par at 1.6%
regal island
seems like HR with the SB uptime could actually get pretty good
sick sentinel
Yeah but AM has more use
then a few extra seconds a shield with a shorter recharge time
junior igloo
It's obviously an overall buff, but they promised to fix the class (uncompetitive talents, awkward mastery etc.) and instead they give us 5 % stamina/armor and more dps/rage (you can use all GCDs on dps/rage generation instead of IP now).
Maybe (hopefully) the design changes are still coming, but it doesn't make much sense to do tuning (buffing vanguard) before that
sick sentinel
When havent they
Dks can heal, dhs can heal(kinda), druids can heal, palys can heal, monks drink which means they heal
We are the only class that cant heal
ornate sky
did they promise to 'fix the class'
regal island
warriors and bear really fell behind this tier, they wanted to nerf bear because it was over represented in mythic raids in legion and they screwed up prot warrior in early legion and didn't want to repeat the same mistake
back when you could IP bubble for 3x your max HP and it absorbed 100% damage it was pretty OP
vale gorge
on raid bosses being able to self heal doesn't really matter though
it's more about EHRPS
regal island
self heal matters a bit for movement heavy fights
sick sentinel
You've probably seen what comments griff got when he posted his video on reddit and how dumb people can be
solid quail
@vale gorge Not just playing other tank classes, getting 6/8 mythic on other tank classes, people just don't want prot warriors/don't play them in high lvl gameplay.
And it's a problem blizzard need to fix
vale gorge
@solid quail if more people play other classes in general it's obviously going to mean more of those classes are going to reach 6/8
if you want to make a bit better comparison you have to look at what % people play prot warrior compared to other tanks in general, and then look at what % of prot warriors reach 6/8m compared to other tank classes
and see if those percentages differ
and even still there are other factors that influence it
zinc mauve
@junior igloo my guess is that they are adjusting us currently just to see what some number changes do, maybe convince some players to start playing the class so they can collect some data. As it stands right now, just these changes alone will make us much stronger in m+ in the situations we are weak in, but it doesn't stand to fix any of the problems you have mentioned such as our talent inflexibility
azure perch
How about warriors with prot as OS tanking 6/8? o:
ornate sky
arms being strong skews things, and WW not so BrM is nice for the debuff
zinc mauve
that or they're just tryin to get this build good before they go ham in trying to fix different builds
regal island
eh shadow, ele, feral got giant reworks
sick sentinel
I mean remember they did say not to expect much if anything in 8.1 for prots/guards
raven kernel
Representation is much more a reflection of community opinion than actual balance
regal island
granted they were all broken as fuck
sick sentinel
So im not expecting anything else but what we got it, and I doubt they are going to tune anything
regal island
MM was super low represented this tier too
ornate sky
community opinion clearly looks at actual balance
zinc mauve
still, largely a reason we are unrepresented is because the class is very weak if played improper
regal island
so MM got a fix
ornate sky
not perfectly, but well enough
zinc mauve
making the class easier helps with representation
raven kernel
Prot actually isn't broken at the top end of skill level
vale gorge
@sick sentinel what video was that btw?
raven kernel
Which is why they haven't given us a giant rework like other specs
solid quail
@vale gorge defensive stance enabled. Why do so many prot warriors refuse to accept their class is ass. Obviously it means less if the players good, but come on... The class is in tatters
static lance
Prot Warrior weakness is in its difficulty and how punishing it can be if you screw up. The base mitigation kit is perfectly good.
regal island
idk if they want to make prot good with the current build they need to change IP to consume upto 40 rage and not overcap your IP
static lance
@solid quail because we play the damn class and we actually see how good it is?
regal island
basically make it idiot proof
solid quail
Or are delusional
junior igloo
Prot is better than the general perception if you play really well, but it's not at the level of monks for example
vale gorge
@solid quail because we're not ass and you're just a parrot repeating what people without a clue are saying
zinc mauve
i play the class cause i like pretending to be a stormwind guard
raven kernel
@solid quail if you're only going to accept answers you want, just talk to yourself
ornate sky
why are you even responding to finboar
azure perch
Rei, are you saying it's the top players fault for prot warrior being behind monk and DK? o:
static lance
good point, man. I was doing so well ignoring him earlier, too.
raven kernel
No Marvin
regal island
you bring a prot warrior for the 10% ap buff if you don't run an arms/fury war imo
ornate sky
but you run an arms warrior because decent in uldir
regal island
which hate to say it but there are better melee than arms/fury with way more utility
raven kernel
I mean that we were lower on the urgency to fix than feral enh ele etc
ornate sky
in M+ yes, not in uldir
azure perch
That's true 😛
solid quail
I'm not even insulting anyone, I'm saying the class is ass, doesn't mean people playing it are, a good marksman hunter could outdps a warlock doesn't change the fact marksman is shit
regal island
eh arms is good in uldir but it's nothing a rogue cant do
vale gorge
you're insulting our intelligence with your dumb arguments
zinc mauve
spin to win
vale gorge
just stop
raven kernel
You pretty much want 1 arms on every fight though
solid quail
Tell me why I'm wrong, how are they even comparable to other tanks.
amber siren
SPIN TO WIN
regal island
like a monk is a better orb runner, frost is better cleave etc.
raven kernel
Rogues got sat on mythrax and ghuun in the wf race
regal island
cant say arms or fury are exactly vital for the roles they fill
azure perch
You want at least 1 arms warrior for the buff, cleave and execute.
junior igloo
@solid quail
We are easily comparable - you compare them and easily see that we are behind 😄
solid quail
They can't maintain 100% uptime on mitigation if I'm not mistaken?
zinc mauve
i dont think a single tank can keep 100% uptime asides from stagger
vale gorge
prot warriors are comparable or even better than other tanks in some fights, as you could see if you looked at the amount of damage we take and external healing we need compared to other tanks
stone crag
monk can keep ISB up 100%
bear can keep IF up 100%
other than that, no other tank can
raven kernel
We still take less damage than them
zinc mauve
thanks for the correction
static lance
Prot specifically, because they have better passive mitigation.
solid quail
If what I've heard is correct it's possible for all other tanks
regal island
prot excels in making that super large hit basically tickle with the right setup
azure perch
No Finboar. No.
stone crag
no
raven kernel
Lol no
vale gorge
just as an example, I main tank Fetid mythic and I need a lot less external healing than any monk tank I've been able to find
raven kernel
Dh has piss poor uptime
oblique garnet
with 50% haste you can pretty much have 100% uptime on SB
signal rune
No its not (im a dh tank)
zinc mauve
our active mitigation is some of the strongest in the game as well, since that's our ggimmick
static lance
more base armor + block means not needing your AM at 100%. because sometimes its not necessary
raven kernel
Pally uptime isn't great either
static lance
DH don't have 100% uptime either. neither does Prot Pally.
I have a Prot Pally, I know this.
solid quail
But come on, they don't take that less damage, in fact just raw healing wise, warriors need the most other than maybe guardian
zinc mauve
i only play prot warrior and occasionally touch my guardian druid so i dont know too much about the other tanks
static lance
some tanks are designed around 100% uptime, some aren't.
raven kernel
Dh has worse uptime and weaker/less cds
regal island
i mean next raid tier that SB change is going to push us into 100% SB uptime easily
signal rune
We have gaps up to 10 seconds in AM if you play bad(dh)
raven kernel
Monks need the most healing
stone crag
brew takes more DTPS than any other tank and require more healing attention
static lance
their AM also differs in magnitude. Prot Pally AM gives way more armor than Druids or DK
raven kernel
Warriors need some of the least healing
azure perch
But they're the easiest to heal Art
stone crag
idd
junior igloo
@vale gorge
Oh that's true, we take less damage than other tanks. It might come in handy in some type of content, but in raids it usually doesn't matter than much.
With 4-5 healers, you usually have a bunch of hots, beacons etc. on you, so if you require 8k healing per second on average or 10k or 12k, it just doesn't mean much, a lot of that extra throughput ends up as overhealing sadly.
regal island
bad warriors die when they let all the mit drop off and run out of cd's
vale gorge
it's exactly the opposite though, prot warrs and guardian druids need the least amount of external healing when main tanking Fetid
regal island
that's the gap
vale gorge
if you actually look at the logs
static lance
@regal island Bad tanks die when they let that happen.
regal island
eh monks can get carried by healers
static lance
fair.
regal island
they just pump out a little more mana on heals
vale gorge
@junior igloo if taking less damage doesn't matter that much in raids then what does matter?
regal island
warrior it's nope... he's tanking the floor now
static lance
yeah, I can see the utility argument in m+, but isn't raid tanking all about mitigation?
vale gorge
exactly @static lance
raven kernel
The problem with warrior is that it's incredibly punishing when played badly
stone crag
not entirely, utility is still weighed heavily
azure perch
The only thing that matters is how easy you're to heal, be it being predictability or the tank handling most of the damage he himself takes, see DK and BrM.
raven kernel
But when prot is played well it's amazing and all healers can notice the mitigation
solid quail
If the protection warrior mains were in beserker stance rather than defensive then blizzard might actually make some decent changes.
The first step to solving any problem is admitting you have one.
ornate sky
raids is all about being predictable to heal and survive the big burst mechanics
static lance
@solid quail We have admitted we have problems. We know what our issues are.
regal island
prot is bad for parsing healers
bad prot pops cd's and dies
static lance
it talent inflexibility and difficulty of play.
autumn pendant
@solid quail they were stated in reddit post too...
light epoch
@solid quail you are hopelessly misinformed s far as I've seen so far
junior igloo
@vale gorge
That's because the metric is imperfect.
A monk needs more healing total, true. But since they don't take burst damage (80 % of their damage taken is staggerd over time), you have time to heal them up. That means you can use efficient heals like hots and beacons.
A warrior needs less healing total, but when you take 1 or 2 melee hits, you are in immediate danger of dying which means healers don't have time to let hots tick, they have to bomb you now.
Less healing total, but usually more mana and GCDs spent on it sadly
ornate sky
yes but only monks are smoother in damage taken
stone crag
no one here is saying warrior is flawless or near it what the fuck are you going on about fin
raven kernel
Depends on content though
regal island
that depends too because healers can also overheal prot a lot more
raven kernel
In raids of course brew is the best
But if you're a healer then brews are a nightmare to heal in m+
ornate sky
warrior/druid have the smoothest damage intake after monks
hearty portal
They are nerfing deafning crash by a shit ton right?
zinc mauve
i just checked, in every single uldir log i have looked at with the exception of taloc and mother (where im the MT), I have the least damage taken and (obviously) most damage mitigated with 50-70% mitigation on every single encounter except vectis which is mostly magic damage
hearty portal
capping at 6 sec?
ornate sky
and they are a bit meh
static lance
@junior igloo but isn't the base mitigation of the warrior designed to help with that, in order to make the damage intake smoother? I look at some warrior streams and their intake seems pretty stable.
regal island
it's like a 4.5 sec loss per DS from what i was looking at @hearty portal
zinc mauve
so saying that warriors require more external healing and attention is completely disingenous from my perspective
raven kernel
We are very stable when mitigation is up
hearty portal
So how many itemlevels will that trait be worth now?
zinc mauve
15 id say
hearty portal
ok
zinc mauve
its still a strong trait
raven kernel
Anyone that says warriors require more external healing pretty much takes reddit as their Bible
hearty portal
Yeah ofcourse
hearty portal
But i thought it wouldnt be worth like 45 itemlevel
stone crag
lol nope
hearty portal
anymore
vale gorge
@junior igloo that's what I hear all the time, but I haven't found that to be true when comparing my health graphs with those of monks on a lot of fights. I usually take just as smooth or even smoother damage than monks. I think the difference is as a prot warrior you need to know in advance what kind of damage is going to be incoming and use defensives proactively
zinc mauve
yeah its not, its only worth 15 instead of 45 now
junior igloo
@zinc mauve
Can you look at how much mana was spent on healing you compared to the other tank?
Or how many global cooldowns/casts the healers spent on you compared to the other tank?
regal island
warriors are like chilren with a fork and an electrical socket. You have to watch them close and make sure they dont die.
monk is more like a kid with a cup of juice you just need to make sure they don't spill
hearty portal
I like the change, but then again it will probably be extremly easy to get it on your gear later. So i kinda hate it at the same time
zinc mauve
im not too familiar with warcraft logs to parse that information myself to be honest
i can send you some of my logs if you want though
zinc mauve
cause i have absolutely no idea how to do it myself lol
light epoch
Smoother damage than a monk? Seems legitimately impossible dude. Sure you can be mitigating better but s for taking smoother damage, I dunno
sick sentinel
@vale gorge it wasnt a Q and A where it was from, from a blue post https://www.wowhead.com/news=287357/blizzard-on-azerite-imbalance-mythic-azerite-situation-and-prot-warriors
ornate sky
and thats because of stupidity on blizzards side to make them a passive stagger tank
sick sentinel
Spent too much time looking for this crap
raven kernel
My raid priest much prefers to do m+ with me, an offspec prot, than our brew mt
ornate sky
compared to guard + self heals
solid quail
Yeah warriors are an art, do em right and they might be competitive, but I haven't come across one of those warriors yet and 100% of the time they've been unable to handle nearly as much as any other tanks, that's a problem regardless of their unseen "potential".
vale gorge
ah thanks @sick sentinel 😄
raven kernel
I'm much easier to heal
light epoch
Depends on the healing spec
oblique garnet
oh damn pug pally is sad because he cant hold aggro : /
junior igloo
I'm not really sure how to find that quickly myself, @zinc mauve
I'm just pointing out that it would be a better metric
light epoch
Main brew and have issues with certain healers
solid quail
@raven kernel you must be insane, or your healers have seen shit monks because monks in m+ can be insane and so much more common to find good monks than warriors.
ornate sky
thats a healer problem, monk damage intake is super smooth
solid quail
Coz most good warriors switched to a better class
ornate sky
even if you play trash and purify all the time
light epoch
I think it's more that monk is less punishing than warrior when the player is bad
raven kernel
@solid quail or you're just horribly misinformed
soft kindle
Monks aren't the best in m+, just like prot. Monk is just less "fuck you" when you make mistakes or misplays
ornate sky
you've seen the monk post on the player who just used purify brew in heroic raids
and it didn't really matter
soft kindle
Yes everyone has seen the fetid log
static lance
@ornate sky but monk damage is nonstop. the healer can't take a breath, especially if you dont have HoTs
stone crag
monk has more than enough utility for m+ tooo
solid quail
I'm talking from experience
ornate sky
would be like a warrior only using IP and not SB
regal island
ok for the DC nerf look at
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xLPT3MBGtAfpH2Db#fight=27&type=casts&source=35
11 DS casts for a total DS duration of 203 seconds in a 286 sec fight aka 71% uptime
with the nerf 11 DS casts is max 14 per cast aka 154 sec.
meaning 49 seconds less of DS in a 4 min 46 sec fight
basically 20% less
raven kernel
Monks in m+ have to be spam healed pretty much
light epoch
I think it's insane to suggest that it's easier to heal a warrior than monk under anything close to normal circumstances
soft kindle
A bad monk is a fucking nightmare to heal
stone crag
idd
regal island
warriors need less heals but need more attention
monks need more heals but less attention
hearty portal
A bad warrior dies
solid quail
@raven kernel yeah if they're face tanking everything, but they have a lot to just avoid damage and remain tanking.
fossil basalt
Some guys in this group is delusional hypocrite
junior igloo
If used on cooldown, decent up-time on Demo Shout will go from ~70 % to ~55 %
fossil basalt
They say noob players shitting name of prot warrior
vale gorge
@regal island you're not taking into account the fact that we'll be able to generate and spend more rage with the new changes, which means that with Anger Management the cooldown of DS will go down slightly
fossil basalt
Otherwise prot is perfect as they said
raven kernel
Warrior has so much frontloaded mitigation I can facetank a pack till its almost dead before I kite to regen back some sb charges for next pack
regal island
how are we going to generate more rage? @vale gorge
vale gorge
because we don't have to spend GCDs on IP anymore, freeing them up to use rage gen abilities
junior igloo
@regal island
By using all GCDs on rage generation instead of Ignore Pain
hearty portal
They said in the Q&A that our rage was a problem aswell right? So they might look into it and smooth it out between aoe and single target etc
light epoch
The changes will help. It's not going to catapult them to top tier of mythic progression and high keys. I think that much is clear
static lance
@light epoch prot warriors aren't hard to heal, though. assuming they know the basics and use mitigation properly, which is the main challenge.
raven kernel
The last necrotic week which was what 3.or 4.weeks.ago? I could facetank till my necrotic hit 30+ and I'm still not dying
hearty portal
Well the gcd is far from the only issue warriors had. But it does effect the feel of playing a warrior which to me is kinda big
light epoch
The same can be said of any tank dude.
raven kernel
And my priest didn't bitch about it at all
hearty portal
But I would like to see a better mastery atleast, and some more rage gen
soft kindle
Necrotic changes are going to affect how those weeks go, a lot. It's not magic damage anymore
vale gorge
@light epoch isn't that the point though? that prot warriors are just as easy to heal as any tank?
soft kindle
that's gonna hurt DKs and pallys a tad
light epoch
Total opposite experience from my healers
raven kernel
30+ stacks not 30% btw
static lance
@light epoch fair enough, but the argument is whether prot is easier to heal than a BrM. I don't think they are, but I don't think the gap is that huge either.
zinc mauve
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wfyRYbvG3PpLaQBd#fight=53&type=damage-taken
prot tank vs brewmaster, 10 man raid w/ 8 ilvl disparity between tanks in favor of prot warrior
damage taken - 3.55 m vs 2.42 mill, least damage taken is prot warrior
DTPS - 17,625.7 vs 12,013.9, least dtps is prot warrior
mitigated - 50.18% vs 72.39%, most mitigation is prot warrior
casts recieved over fight - 59 vs 28, prot warrior recieved least casts AKA least attention
heroic fetid
hearty portal
Btw our DK main tank in the guild is usually running around with around 10k selfhealing through according to details
ornate sky
8ilvl is a lot and indicated a better (more commited) player
hearty portal
which is abit funny
light epoch
I totally agree. I don't think the difference is anywhere near as large as people would suggest. However I still maintain there is a difference
raven kernel
Dk heals alot but also receives more external healing than warrior
vale gorge
@zinc mauve you can't compare main and off tanks on Fetid
junior igloo
@soft kindle
Spellwarding doesn't remove necrotic on live, only stops further applications, so it's a bit awkward to use at times.
BoP in 8.1 will instantly remove it (since it's physical) + you now have a free talent to use instead of Spellwarding.
The disadvantage is that BoP has a longer cooldown, but overall it's probably a neutral change for a paladin.
solid quail
@raven kernel ofc they're gonna shine on necrotic weeks, doesn't change the fact they're outmatched every other week, no mass grip, no ring of piece.
zinc mauve
do you want me to find the log where the role is reversed and its the near exact same result?
oblique garnet
Zekvoz is probably the best to compare tank damage
light epoch
On heroic fetid, lol
zinc mauve
ok ill find the heroic zekvoz log then
vale gorge
I agree with your conclusion @zinc mauve but you can't argue it that way
zinc mauve
fair
raven kernel
Shifting goalposts to utility now instead of healing required? Lol
amber siren
just don't dip below 100% hp loooooooooool
light epoch
BRM will always, or should always take more damage. That is simply how they work... It's the fact that the damage intake never spikes, ever. Less high impact heals are required meaning your healers can plan their casts and save mana
dull pilot
: that momment when you call your wife fat and run for your life as she rolls towards you but before she hits you, you yell shield wall and she stops to wtf and you get away
thats how i tank m+
regal island
@junior igloo looking at that same fight there was 2072 rage gained (not counting wasted rage). Even assuming a 10% rage gain due to freeing up the 12 gcd's spent on IP. thats 20 sec off cd's so 1 or maybe 2 demos lets say 1.5 brining demo so instead of a 49 sec demo uptime loss it would be ~30 sec demo loss
raven kernel
Not when the brew requires so much healing that you have to use fast heals to keep up anyway
My disc priest has almost never oomed healing me
Besides grievous week where all the dps need to be spammed as well
solid quail
A semi decent monk who's read their abilities can basically mitigate almost all damage by kiting alone.
oblique garnet
you cant kite raid bosses : ) )
raven kernel
And do half my dmg
light epoch
So a brew master playing incorrectly. Gotcha
fathom marten
^
raven kernel
And also reduces the party dmg cos mobs are spread
hearty portal
You can stack things while kiting
raven kernel
Not when you have a mix of melee and ranged mobs
solid quail
Whereas if a warrior slips up it's almost impossible to predict, knowing exactly how much damage a monk is taking means so much more than the actual healing output required
light epoch
Rop is insanely strong
raven kernel
They will be spread all over
solid quail
Not if done right.
zinc mauve
monks played improperly can be just as spikey as a bad played warrior
solid quail
It's harder to fuck up though
raven kernel
Monks played badly require so much healing your healer has to spam flash heals and barely get the hp up
solid quail
Really badly yeah
raven kernel
And your healer will struggle to top up dps etc
leaden kernel
at least a bad monk gets to live
solid quail
A bad warrior is already dead
zinc mauve
a bad warrior wouldnt have made it to raid night
oblique garnet
^
raven kernel
Warriors played well require ridiculously low healing
static lance
^
oblique garnet
But the issue is that they need healing and apparently thats too much for some people
solid quail
Played really well, to the extent their limited in unexpected scenarios.
zinc mauve
spike damage in this game often has long wind ups, for example, the zekvoz combo is laughable at best when you have a literal year to predict when its going to hit
static lance
resto druid in my m+ group can DPS more often when i'm tanking on my warrior vs when I'm tankng on my paladin. but I'm still unfamiliar with paladin and I expect it to even out eventually as I get better.
zinc mauve
you know to save up your mitigation and pop it when it counts
raven kernel
I literally facetanked the packinfront of freehold last boss on Teeming week
Without kiting
On a 14
oblique garnet
Yeah teeming is fine
vale gorge
Here's a comparison: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8BRvC4qfVWQXwY6n#fight=33&type=damage-taken&options=130 is a log of me main tanking Fetid M as a prot war (Cimmeria)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/mx1NKYzjwQncGk4J#fight=33&type=damage-taken&options=130 is a log of a BM monk (Zqs) with the same amount of progression and ilvl as me also main tanking Fetid M.
I have an average of 14,312 EHRPS (external healing required per sec) while the monk as 19,609 EHRPS. If you look at the Resources tabs (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8BRvC4qfVWQXwY6n#fight=33&type=resources&source=21 and https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/mx1NKYzjwQncGk4J#fight=33&type=resources&source=9) you'll see that I'm not taking spikier damage at all.
solid quail
Good for you, 1 pack does a warrior not make
oblique garnet
but teeming + fortified is annoying to deal with
raven kernel
A brew can't facetank that same pack on same week
sick sentinel
Most of the things come up by the prot playing poorly
zinc mauve
the point Rei is trying to make is that warrior, when you can predict the incoming damage, makes that incoming damage meaningless through our powerful active mitigation
solid quail
They can't face tank it, but cc and kite it, easy
zinc mauve
...so can we?
oblique garnet
The only time warrior really has to kite are necrotic / sanguine week
solid quail
Not as well
oblique garnet
what?
zinc mauve
heroic leap and intercept dont exist
raven kernel
Sure, but when I tanked it my party cleared the pack a good 15 to 20s faster
Which matters in m+
ionic fern
wow, this conversation is still going on.
solid quail
Shit group, it shouldn't matter at all.
oblique garnet
Heroic leap Intercept Highmountain racial for instance
sick sentinel
We can kite no problem, the thing is not needing to kite
amber siren
when i kite i turn rp walk on, that's bcs i play warrior and not bcs im a bad player
am i doing this right
azure perch
Warrior are also good for just soaking damage to the back when your raid is doing too much aoe on zul: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/YbqTFkHgjDvQxdat#fight=38&type=damage-taken
My DTPS is high on the start as I am intentionally "tanking" the crawgs with my back towards them. 😐
zinc mauve
wheres my talent where i can put a second shield on my back
junior igloo
@zinc mauve
I see your point, warriors are decent when total healing matters, no doubt about that, but consider some of these:
- Overhealing on you was almost double compared to the monk (still low on both to be fair).
- Look at the priest - effective (and passive) heals such as Prayer of Mending, Echo (mastery) etc. is highest on the monk. But Serenity (which is the big heal on a longer cooldown) was used on you a lot more. On the other hand there was a bunch of Flash Heals on the brewmaster which aren't the most efficient.
- The shaman healer did a lot of passive/efficient healing on the monk - Riptide, Healing Wave, totem etc. On the other hand, he healed you a lot with Healing Surge which is the fast cast expensive heal.
That's the sort of thing that's hard to see on first glance.
That being said, low EHRPS tanks are very good on content that isn't too hard. When you overgear fights a bit and are out of danger of quickly dying, requiring less healing is great.
But in progression where you push the content that's as hard as you can manage, quick deaths from just 2-3 attacks is what kills some tanks (warriors in particular) because we have low baseline EHP (despite high average damage reduction).
pearl saddle
ornate sky
we could definitely do with an ability to move mobs
raven kernel
Vacuum shout when
ornate sky
to deal with ranged on sanguine
static lance
@junior igloo interesting analysis. but what does that actually mean for us? is this something that blizzard should be addressing? is this a strength or a weakness?
leaden kernel
SUCC shout
last hull
wrenching smash
static lance
healers overhealing us is a healer problem, not a tank problem. if they're overhealing, they should stop. its not hard.
sick sentinel
Just having mocking banner reintroduced and it PULLS adds to punch it
Since brewmaster pretty much stole it from us
zinc mauve
@junior igloo I see and understand what you mean. I am not too familiar with all the other classes so I can only do a surface-level read of logs. Your input is greatly appreciated
leaden kernel
every healer aint a hive mind, their bound to over heal from sniping
ionic fern
This means that Brewmasters are kept up mostly with passive heals due to how stagger works compared to other tanks who need more reactive healing.
regal island
warriors just tend to take damage fast, so healers react quick to top you off using the ineffecient quick heals
ionic fern
😒
regal island
IP off gcd should help slow the spikes down
but thats kinda contingent on having rage to cast IP when you start spiking. Similar to a bad blood dk blowing runes early
leaden kernel
i see the big bonus is, when were low on rage and taking dmage we can spend our global on gaining rage rather then puting IP up
regal island
my guilds blood dk actually had that problem back when we were doing mythic imonar
leaden kernel
and obiously it helps stop us from rage capping
regal island
idk why they don't just make IP passive and use rage when we take spikes
make it a talent
short sedge
Can anyone explain to me how to use Marok's sheet? I am trying to fix my stat priority but I'm new to this :x
vale gorge
@junior igloo it would be really interesting to see if healers tend to overheal more when there's a prot warrior in the raid than when a BM monk is in the raid. Has anyone done any research on that?
leaden kernel
theres that new azurite trait that when we avatar, we put up a free IP and gain mastery, its possible we are getting a new mastery that directly affects IP
regal island
"fueled by rage"
your ignore pain is now passive and will aborb damage as if you had IP active at 40% damage taken instead of 50% if hard casting
basically a stagger linked to a rage bar
oblique garnet
That might make prot too strong
azure perch
Then you might aswell just play monk.
solid quail
From my experience as a healer, healing a really good warrior is a pleasant experience, but it's roughly the same as healing any other tank regardless of how good they are, on the other hand, healing a really good, Protadin, monk or DK is just so much easier, to the extend that you can focus on pushing DPS helps so much especially for disc.
raven kernel
Tell me why my disc loves me then
junior igloo
@short sedge
Secondary stats are about equal for general use. In some type of content some are better if you want to min-max for a specific fight.
Stamina is really good (best stat for EHP), but doesn't reduce damage taken obviously.
Strength and armor are defensively weaker than secondary stats, but still have some value obviously
raven kernel
I mean I'm in a 7/8M guild and our raid tanks are dk and brew
solid quail
You could also be an insane tank, but I'm talking generally
raven kernel
But my disc wants me a dps warrior to tank m+
regal island
or realize if they PW shield you you'll be fine and IP youself so they can heal you up via pennance
zinc mauve
prot warriors can eek out some crazy damage in packs compared to other tanks
sick sentinel
Helbrute, stop with the ignore pain meme
raven kernel
Prot and disc = high dps comp
zinc mauve
he cant stop, its too dangerous
raven kernel
For m+
regal island
why blizz wants IP to be a thing, might as well hop on board and make IP work
vale gorge
that's just not true @unkempt tangle
solid quail
High dps, but I'd prefer a DK pulling a huge pack and letting the DPS do their thing
zinc mauve
prot warriors arent bad for m+, prot warriors are only bad at super high keys like 15+
and even then, they're only 'bad' because the other options are better
leaden kernel
nobody sane could say prot is bad in uldir
junior igloo
Prot is bad in Uldir
next sable
Prot for over a decade, prot til I die~
zinc mauve
double dk strat at vectis
solid quail
I mean it is, most raids I've been in have declined any prot warriors coz they all fail the first scrub check of prot warriors by not rerolling a better tank.
raven kernel
If I wanted to push 20 I'd play dk too
regal island
dk has major advantages
odd ridge
Jesus
regal island
needing only 1 weapon is a huge advantage
leaden kernel
thats just retarded, if someone told me they dont want me for M+ i just be annoyed but being declined in raids is just stupid
regal island
oh hey they can dps or tank with a single 2h... pretty sexy
solid quail
Healer carry 100%
sick sentinel
@solid quail dude, if we can get the right CC, we can skystep pull
regal island
trick is skystep + rogue and skip pretty much all trash to the first boss
sick sentinel
Right CC I mean CC Infested
topaz badger
All the protwarr trashtalk makes me insecure, while it often depends on healer too. same dungeon, different healer day/nite
sick sentinel
@solid quail can I ask to link us some log or .io?
ionic fern
It's a game, play what ever you enjoy.. 😒
Unless you are pushing world top 100 or something..and in that case you would be playing a monk/BDK anyways.
raven kernel
Depends on dps too
topaz badger
well, dps doesn't keep me at 100% with grievious
oblique garnet
Theres nothing wrong with needing a healer as a tank its how mmo is supposed to be
raven kernel
If you get lazy fuck dps that don't Interrupt or stun anything you're gonna have a hard time
sick sentinel
@topaz badger like 70% of prots use the wrong talents or are spamming ip instead of shieldblocking
And with the wrong talents the spec simply does not worm
solid quail
@sick sentinel once again proving why this expansion is dying
raven kernel
Finboar you're jaded AF man
topaz badger
no1 else notices it's not as smooth having a disc priest?
oblique garnet
Disc is not optimal for grievious
topaz badger
other healers work fine for me, but I seem to have issues when disc is healing me
sick sentinel
You can't go around saying that everyone is bad and talk like you know everything
topaz badger
Maybe you just have a really good one 😛
solid quail
On Comms it's not bad, but in pugs with a questionable warrior not easy.
Never said anyone is bad
topaz badger
But I have had a mate respec to holy and he did seem to have an easier time
solid quail
I'm talking about the class in general and my experiences with it compared to other class
Classes
sick sentinel
On grievous you just gave to chainpull for the disc to heal and eat after packs, I personally like running with discs
oblique garnet
The % of prot warriors who do pug keys etc is very low and even those who do there are only few who do well
sick sentinel
Experience is so, so subjective
oblique garnet
Like in terms of knowledge of their class
solid quail
Discs put out insane healing given they don't have to spam shadowmend for the entire fight
oblique garnet
There are bunch of prot warriors choosing ilvl over having DC
topaz badger
so instead of taking it slow I should go faster with a disc?
topaz badger
so just stay on 5 stacks all the time?
sick sentinel
You can eat after some pulls
solid quail
No, but your best bet is to pop something relatively early so the disc can get some dots in and attonement everyone, coz after that it's piss
sick sentinel
160k food
topaz badger
what are the affixes this week btw?
solid quail
Explosive bolstering tyrannical
topaz badger
thx 😃
sick sentinel
If you hear the sound shadowmend does more than once in a row you are doing something wrong
oblique garnet
Kinda free week
junior igloo
@leaden kernel
So my warrior is about 375 item level.
Is it possible to do mythic Uldir for me? Of course. I can do it, but it's a bit problematic at times. Out of SB charges, so I call for an Ironbark, but healer isn't paying attention or is just running out with a debuff and cant cast it on me - I die.
I'm not taking a lot of damage, so hots aren't refreshed on me and they all expire, suddenly I have no healing incoming just as we have to move, everyone running, I'm not getting any healing for 5 seconds, I might die.
Of course, those situations are preventable in one way or another, but it's just so prone to dying to relatively small mistakes.
I swap to my brewmaster that is 20 item levels lower and nothing is dangerous. Every single of my deaths are the "wasn't healed for 20+ seconds because all healers were already dead".
I honestly think that I am better at playing a warrior than a brewmaster, but the difference is really noticeable.
I don't want to say that you shouldn't play a warrior or that it is literally impossible to kill anything with a warrior in your group or anything along those terms.
But at the same time I find it extremely disingenuous to say that "warriors are perfectly fine and all tanks are balanced", I just don't believe that.
You have people saying that the only thing that makes warriors worse is that they are harder to play. In that case - why aren't they represented at the top end? Are you saying that it's so hard that even top 100 players can't handle it? Well in that case that itself is a real issue then.
And at the same time the same people say that "prot is fine if you aren't top 100". How does that make any sense? That's pretty much a the exact opposite of the original statement. If it's mostly the difficulty causing issues, it's gonna be even worse for an average player than it is for a top player
sick sentinel
It's "bring an outlaw/fury warr week"
topaz badger
they aren't represented in the top end because they have 4 geared alts to choose from and prefer to choose the ones that are most op at that moment.
solid quail
@junior igloo a man who speaks some sense.
leaden kernel
i defiantly understand were weaker but i just assumed that the public perception only really made sense in m+ environment
solid quail
When you gonna learn that "play the most op at the moment" is the same as "I'm playing a shit class"
compact mirage
With 25% Haste SB recharge is at 12 seconds right? 16-16*0.25 = 12 Is the following correct?
sb uptime
junior igloo
@compact mirage
16 / 1.25 = 12.8
oblique garnet
Does it take it from the base haste or haste + itf
compact mirage
Ok so a tad bit more Haste for 12sec.
oblique garnet
Atm i have 50% haste in uldir with itf
ornate sky
a lot of posts here are "why can't we be as op as monk"
zinc mauve
dont monks kinda blow in m+?
compact mirage
Yeah that not gonna happen @oblique garnet in most cases
ornate sky
DKs/DHs/Prot also have downtime in their mitigation and face those same challenges
and needs for externals
Monks are busted in raids
leaden kernel
its a good convo to have to understand what makes us good and what makes monk good, i reflection on what makes us different
cause a world were all classes are the same is a cursed one
zinc mauve
id rather all classes have their own special niche
ornate sky
monk just is broken for raids while stagger is so powerful
compact mirage
33.3% haste is 12sec recharge cd then
solid quail
They're moving towards that I think with recent changes
oblique garnet
@compact mirage with 8 stacks or reorigination array etc i have 50% haste almost all the time with the exception of dropping the stacks on zul
ornate sky
they need to move back toward dodge/guard and have stagger power reduced.. more for the 'stam increase and smoothing' than the mitigation side
fathom marten
Playing monk doesn't feel overly powerful
compact mirage
@oblique garnet what I wrote, that is Uldir only and will not affect the regular prot warrior tank daily life.
fathom marten
I've been maining one the last month
oblique garnet
Well true but outside or uldir i still have 40% or so
ornate sky
because its boring as hell, they ruined monks imo. they are op but the worst to play mechanically
raven kernel
Don't get me started on bear and dh
ornate sky
MoP monk was great... keg toss would be op as hell right now though
raven kernel
ResidentSleeper
junior igloo
Now imagine playing a druid.
You have the brewmaster fun with the warrior surivability and less dps 😄
ornate sky
also rushing jade wind is disgusting
solid quail
I've seen a single guardian druid this expansion, like literally 1
sick sentinel
I only see them at world bosses
solid quail
I think I've seen more real bears
leaden kernel
my cotank is a guardian, his pretty fine, has aggro problems but that his player skill combined with the classes weakness i think
solid quail
You're calling him shite?
leaden kernel
yes
leaden kernel
hes as good as he needs to be
ornate sky
The only thing warrior needs now is some utility imo, other classes have a imprison/pacify and a way to move mobs... we don't
leaden kernel
couldnt really ask anything else from him
we have a aoe fear which is really strong but hardly usefull
sick sentinel
More used as an aoe interrupt
ornate sky
our thing can be ... no self healing... no reason why we can't long term cc a mob or move them
rallying cry sucks
solid quail
So many cooldowns for healers and tanks should be removed from the GCD
leaden kernel
the only time iv really felt the no healing is the one time i had to tank mother, when everyone but one healer was left in my room and i just had to say let me die when you cross rooms and the cotank can have the boss
dapper kayak
When should we wait 8.1 ?
umbral galleon
Is there a place I can check for prot stat weights? It's not just as simple as plugging the simc string to raidbots?
sick sentinel
prot doesnt have working sim
ripe flint
My cotank is a warrior, how much will the new PTR changes affect him in raids and M+? Does it make a big difference?
leaden kernel
he will be a happier person
ripe flint
Haha, well that's always good 😄
crisp hearth
No reason it wouldn't
crisp hearth
Is it a cool down or a reduced gcd?
leaden kernel
it is its own cooldown so you can spam it as fast as you press the key
vocal nimbus
If i recall correctly is like an anti high ping measure
woeful otter
Ignore Pain is now off GCD, REJOICE PLEBS
crisp hearth
Ok ok
ornate sky
he dumb lol
fierce juniper
sick sentinel
oh snap
woeful otter
that's animation only, right ?
crisp hearth
Nice
fierce juniper
It's off GCD on PTR
woeful otter
BTW, mmochamp doesn't list this change, any idea why ?
sick sentinel
seems like the .5 seconds is a normal cd
ionic ridge
Hi guys, sorry I just jizzed in my pants reading the pins
"Undocumented 8.1 Change:
- Physical ranged attacks are now blockable."
crisp hearth
No way
ionic ridge
NA-the fuck- NI ?
crisp hearth
Real?
vocal nimbus
Throw rock, shot, and auto attacks are blockable now
balmy narwhal
Is it true
ionic ridge
@fierce juniper Any more clarification on the latest pin ?
ornate sky
oh how did we miss this pin lol
balmy narwhal
Is IP off GCD
vocal nimbus
IP is off GCD in the PTR
ornate sky
so we will only be scuffed vs constant magic dmg / bleeds
but no GCD IP helps there too
fierce juniper
@ionic ridge You can block ranged physical attacks. Same rules as blocking melees afaik. You need to be facing the direction of the attack, etc.
steady dock
Was it worth the DC nerf tho?
leaden kernel
being able to block ranged atacks was
crisp hearth
- limiting gear was a pain
leaden kernel
i can convince my guild members to do toltagor now
vocal nimbus
In 8.1 only tho
ionic ridge
T__T
vocal nimbus
😃
ionic ridge
I can now die in peace
vocal nimbus
There is still no information/confirmation about the mastery rework too
So that's still in the bag
crisp hearth
Yeah we miss the : what will be the mastery
ornate sky
my dream is a mob movement ability... shove / clash(old monk one).. anything
oblique garnet
@fierce juniper can you confirm that now the maximum duration of demoshout with dc is 14 seconds?
steady dock
@oblique garnet just tested on a target dummy, it is. It doesn't refresh after the third TC
oblique garnet
That changes things
ornate sky
so unstoppable force isn't mandatory now?
oblique garnet
Unstoppable force is still mandatory
sick sentinel
prot dies
oblique garnet
More or less
sick sentinel
Meme
oblique garnet
But DC might see some variables
azure perch
Biggest change imo, is being able to block ranged attacks
ornate sky
dragon roar is nice for kiting though
oblique garnet
More damage adds die faster no need to kite
fierce juniper
@oblique garnet Yeah, you can get a maximum of 14 seconds of DS for each cast.
ornate sky
true, while AM is so strong, avatar is strong
AM has such a big effect on all 3 specs
hasty sapphire
DC is still worth a lot, even with this "nerf"
hasty sapphire
nah, but i will still wear my 370 DC over my 385
orchid sky
oblique garnet
How big was the change to vanguard?
amber siren
no the prot warrior discord collectively is illiterate
ornate sky
i find it humorous that there is potential a channel of 19733 warriors
may have potentially missed ptr changes and wouldnt be talking about it all day
ionic ridge
ornate sky
someone said earlier that strength will still be relatively bad
fierce juniper
Clarification on Deafening Crash Nerf:
The "up to 6 seconds" means you can extend each Demoralizing Shout by a maximum of 6 seconds. i.e. within a Demo Shout cast, using Thunder Clap 3 times will get you the 6 additional seconds. Any TC casts after that 3rd cast don't grant any additional Demo Shout uptime.
Meaning you can get a maximum of 14 seconds of Demoralizing Shout, per Demoralizing Shout cast.
oblique garnet
Yup
vocal nimbus
Because there arent haste flasks
amber siren
just gem and flask int for big brain plays
oblique garnet
Bring back spirit
steady dock
I must be blind. Can anyone tell me where's the bit for blockable ranged attacks?
steady dock
Ah, cheers.
raven kernel
leaden kernel
gee that would of been nice to get a patch and not be told a mechanic of my class has changed
leaden kernel
yeah nvm i understand how it goes
restive matrix
And blizz does not even publish these changes, they are datamined if I understand correctly
leaden kernel
^
vale gorge
it's weird cause they updated a bunch of tooltips for 8.1, but it still says that SB blocks all 'melee' attacks
vocal nimbus
Not wrong tho 🤷
steady dock
vocal nimbus
If the reworked mastery ends up being good then things are gonna look fine
hazy flame
What reworked mastery?
manic perch
we dont know yet 😛
fiery vapor
it's just a dreams
hazy flame
Nobody has ever said anything about reworked mastery. It's a pipe dream.
Bliz is probably done with Prot now for another cycle lel
vocal nimbus
There were hints about mastery changes in the first datamining info but nothing official has been said about that
sick sentinel
I feel we do not really need one
ember arrow
well, not necessarily, but our mastery is unreliable, right?
in legion at least, we could guarantee critblocks
if you knew when you critblock, you could save cds
now you must use them, incase u dont critblock, which makes it kinda bad, when you need it most
vocal nimbus
Unreliable stuff for tanks is not a good thing
leaden kernel
new tank idea, everytime you take damage you have a 90% chance to take no damage, the other 10% you instantly die
oblique garnet
That bonestorm nerf tho
ionic ridge
How much ?
ember arrow
maximum heal is 15% per second
primal rain
Is IP supposed to be the main self-sustain ala light of the protector and death strike?
ember arrow
death strike is main metigation, IP is secondary metigation
so no
it is comparable to lotp in some way
gleaming mortar
I'm trying to find the changes coming to prot warrior for 8.1 but can't seem to get them
ionic fern
Pins.
vocal nimbus
Changes are in the good direction at least
uneven mason
I'd say the IP off GCD addresses a massive issue we face with our skill floor
It should in theory make the margin of error much wider
or rather, give us the padding from IP without needing to plan ahead horribly much
the 11% increase in SB uptime
is also going to be pretty massive
the IP change treats one of our main problems with nonblockable (the Opportunity cost on IP not being accounted for) giving us a small boost to RPS through more SS chances and IP and SS No longer competing during Avatar
hidden kindle
imagine if they just reverted the GCD change, virtually every class would feel so much better
uneven mason
Right but most classes are perfectly balanced around the GCD change
I mean, I don't even notice it as fury/arms
hidden kindle
really?
uneven mason
yeah
hidden kindle
i feel horrible having to use a GCD for SS as arms for example
same goes for reck as fury
uneven mason
I don't even notice them
hidden kindle
and on say fetid devourer you literally have to stop attacking to "save" gcd for charge to knockback
uneven mason
there isn't a situation where I'm going to be like OH DAMN I WISH I Could press X right now
you mean, leap right?
uneven mason
K, found your issue
hidden kindle
you should not leap the knockback on fetid as arms or fury
uneven mason
you can literally press heroic leap the instant the knockback goes off andn ever leave melee range
vocal nimbus
you gain more with a charge
vocal nimbus
rage = good
leaden kernel
i love fetid as arms, you shouldnt be spamming every gcd and getting a free charge with no effort is free rage
leaden kernel
?
leaden kernel
you should have two charges
hidden kindle
adds you leap + charge
knockback u charge
all in all i just see the gcd change as making the game more clunky for literally 0 upside
havnt heard a single valid argument
leaden kernel
its so you know whats happening when watching a pvp stream
hidden kindle
#worth
prot for sure is one of the specs that were hurt the most by the gcd change but i mean overall its still just a disgusting change
grand burrow
Oh! 385 1h mace from weekly. tho crit/mastery. hmm
balmy narwhal
Ok so i have 3 385 azerite armor
The head is from mother
With shoulder having DC and chest has Brace for impact
My question is: for head piece, do I talent brace for impact or the uldir trait?
ornate sky
yes
weary nacelle
i would probably go for uldir trait. Archive is a big haste boost.
but that's personal preference.
hot locust
In uldir, archive. Outside BFI. If you dont wanna spend gold swapping just go Archive and call it good. Wont be too big a difference outside uldir either way.
primal rain
@ember arrow whats prot main mitiigation
sick sentinel
SB?
orchid gulch
Shield Block, as it always has been
cold wren
@uneven mason you are nuts
Using leap for the knock back lmao
Leap is Better for huge swaps to faraway small adds
Unless you get royal treatment to sit on mass
ember arrow
yes SB
ornate sky
just time your weapon swing for the knockback and charge back in as soon as you're knocked.. geez
hot locust
@cold wren I only ever use leap to cancel the knock.
ornate sky
its not optimum but really doesn't matter
hot locust
but my cotank is a DK and its slow as balls.
cold wren
Oh
hot locust
So I cant just charge around wherever
hot locust
Ahh
cold wren
Shield block blocking ranged attacks
gray parrot
I have heard that it is not as game changing as one might think
cold wren
IP is back to being an off gcd rage dump
gray parrot
so it becomes the primary way to rage dump now right?
cold wren
Use IP if SB is on CD or you need to soak a magi
sick sentinel
Negligible
torn sun
oh that does not matter I gues
cold wren
Stops you applying two IP back to back too rapidly
sick sentinel
It's so you don't double tap it by accident
torn sun
you dont want to use two ips in rapid succession anyway
cold wren
Yeah
torn sun
yeah .. just realized that when I wrote it
hot locust
Honestly the changes feel a lot better than they actually are impactful
gray parrot
how broken would we be if you could stack IPs
hot locust
PTR prot feels so clean and smooth again :D
cold wren
Thinking about it
torn sun
nice
cold wren
Not delaying a gcd anymore for IP
torn sun
really glad that did that
hot locust
no more sitting at 100 rage for 12 seconds of my avatar :^)
cold wren
Cos that shit hurts
Those people throw rocks at you at rail gun speeds in high keys
Now we can block it ^^
sick sentinel
They didn't talk about buffs, they said "rotational improvements"
cold wren
Yeah
torn sun
btw
cold wren
Now we can facetank zul even easier
torn sun
*is
ok one more time the entire sentence
"which is a good thing I believe"
cause I can't write correctly ..
cold wren
Well to account for the boost in def/dps due to IP being off gcd and no longer cock blocking your dps rotation
I think keeping DC would be op
Considering how much faster now
We can reset AM
torn sun
I think DC in on itself is too strong anyway
delicate bone
@hot locust do you have a link with the "smooth" PTR chnages?
torn sun
Yeah you are correct
sick sentinel
@delicate bone
hot locust
@delicate bone ^
cold wren
We gonna be immortal (shame we don’t have mannoroth bracers anymore)
I wouldn’t be surprised if AM gets a nerf to compensate for IP buff?
hot locust
Nah
gray parrot
Question: What does this mean?
" Deafening Crash Thunder Clap deals an additional 179 damage and extends the duration of your Demoralizing Shout on affected enemies by (2000 / 1000) sec, up to 6 sec."
cold wren
Yeah, I think for raids nothing much will change except higher SB uptime and smoother IPs
gray parrot
are they saying you can stack the trait x3?
hot locust
no
gray parrot
or are they putting a cap on how long you can extend the duration
rancid trellis
blizz should make IP GCD and make like 6 sec cd and make absorb based on mastery+stamina,change talent never surrender to + like healing dot after absorb from IP.
hot locust
It just only works for extending on 3 TCs
cold wren
Shame we still lack utility to make us good in m+
hot locust
per demo shout
gray parrot
isnt that a HUGE nerf?
hot locust
eh
cold wren
Mass grip
sick sentinel
Seriously guys ,