@cedar tide no
#protection
amber siren
sick sentinel
@cedar tide only armor does
dusky mica
re: explosive corruption, you pre-reflect it before the cast ends
and double warr removes it from the fight, mostly
raven kernel
People move away from beam is better, esp if the targeted guy is surrounded by people, there's no way he'll get clear
You only have 1s to move
sick sentinel
Most Classes have a way to gtfo
cinder nova
It's like every swap
dusky mica
every second cast, 2 warrs, π€
sick sentinel
You have to time taunts
Swole is still picking his head back together right now
SR has 25 sec CD and explosive corruption happens every 15 sec
Which overlaps with 2 warriors
We are running double prot
if a raid allows it
cinder nova
well fuck
sick sentinel
IDK if the same thing works with AMS tho
i dont play dk and god help me if I did
Even though, I am the "recruiter" I guess and I recruited a VDH and my fury is 373 so I will be fury I guess
raven kernel
Double prot can also perma bounce a vector without getting stacks right
sick sentinel
So rip double prot meme
raven kernel
On vectis
sick sentinel
Vector jumps every 10
raven kernel
Oh poop
raven kernel
Oh really?
lucid kelp
ye you still get a stack if he's untargetable when you reflect it
sick sentinel
Well you can get one, prevent 2 stacks and deliver it back
raven kernel
Odd interactions lmao
lucid kelp
I mean
I still steal Vector from the DPS every 25 seconds if I can
but ye it's handy
tropic star
can you school me on this
sick sentinel
@violet pewter we should try this
tropic star
i reflect at3 seconds and i get debuff, reflect at 1 still failed
reflect at two sometimes works
is ther ea time to hit SR to prevent debuff?
sick sentinel
what move?
lucid kelp
it's always worked for me as long as Reflect is up AS omega is dropping off, and the boss is targetable
tropic star
omgega vector vectis
sick sentinel
Omega vector
shut summit
ye boss has to be targetable, you get debuff during intermission phase
sick sentinel
Ok i might be crazy but why are the tanks getting OV's for?
raven kernel
Cos prot can take a vector without getting a stack
sick sentinel
Because intermission sometimes ends up with a tank getting it
lucid kelp
I take it on purpose sometimes to lower stacks overall
dusky mica
π
sick sentinel
Also trying to position an add close to melee
Also lowering the total stacks of the raid yeah
So just to get this straight, ur SR right before the timer ends
tropic star
like when debuff is at 1
steel mauve
Less than 5
tropic star
i mean yeah
raven kernel
^
sick sentinel
At 4 to take less damage
tropic star
im saying i reflect anywhere from 1-3 seconds left on vector and many many time still get the lingering
raven kernel
Boss in liquid form?
sick sentinel
Ok cause Ive never done that before becasue i never got OV
steel mauve
As long as spell reflect is up when the debuff falls off you, you dont get a stack
sick sentinel
so thats why im aasking
raven kernel
Can't do it in intermission like people said
tropic star
i missed that
sick sentinel
@sick sentinel you are not supposed to get one, but its fine if you do and you're prot, some even take one intentionally
Well now I know just in case it happens
Lucky for me it hasn't yet but
Tbh I used my SR on contagion or after the other tanks swaps off of me to smooth out damage
raven kernel
It's not the end of the world even if you get lingering
lucid kelp
I use SR usually after the other tank taunts...but then also at the end of Transition to eat a stack as everyones regrouping
sick sentinel
I am curious does AMS for bdks work that same way it does for us with SR with OV or ghuuns debuff
lucid kelp
not sure
sick sentinel
If it does, imma be ral angry at the bdks I've pugged with
lucid kelp
i dont think it does
sick sentinel
If they aren't crying about third war nerf then whatever they say to me is just white noise
raven kernel
We will be fellow tank overlords in 8.1
π
If we get fotm rerolls coming in here in 8.1 I'm gonna be Mr Nasty
sick sentinel
Don't stop
vale gorge
Wait you guys are getting stacks when spell reflecting omega vector during the intermission? Because I don't π€
sick sentinel
Mythic raiding is all about banging ur head until everyone gets it right and stops fucking it up
Not intentionally @vale gorge, unless ur wanting to help the raid better streamline the linger debuff
Or if ur raid decided to play with their head up their ass and not watch where the tanks are
junior ivy
63% !
steel mauve
That kind of goes 2 ways, we arent tanking any thing really in p2 vectis, so the raid shouldnt have to watch where we are
vale gorge
I think you missread @sick sentinel
What I mean is that people were saying that the boss needs to be targetable to spell reflect omega vector without getting a stack
But for me this has not been the case
broken kite
Are you ok
final mist
@frank valley Not for this channel.
cinder nova
No, I'm at my wits end.
wheat bronze
Does anyone know if Mortal Strike effects affect the healing of the adds on Mythic Fetid?
final mist
@cinder nova this may come as a surprise, but I don't spend all of my time monitoring this channel.
wheat bronze
Yeah, just wasn't sure if it affected the x% every 2 seconds
frank valley
kk my bad
junior ivy
lmao
sick sentinel
It let's ur assert dominance over the raid, especially over the healers
junior ivy
it happened cause i leaped out to get out of circle and whe ni landed i un-cced an add
and then someone ws like wtf
so i panicked
sick sentinel
You control the boss therefore u control whether the raid wipes
cinder nova
You shouldn't need to leap to get out of any of the circles.
junior ivy
i expected it to be the inner one nextr
it was outer one
i was closest to inner
i panicked
i panic a lot
digital arrow
rofl hargo
junior ivy
but im happy cause i only caused one wipe on zek
i did great every other attempt!
i didn't even make mistakes
digital arrow
goin to un-cc this add and void lash all of u mmkay
oh i should stop leaping too i guess
i have a habit of doing that every time
fair crystal
Finally my first useable Cache π
digital arrow
wow nice
junior ivy
jealousss
junior ivy
cinder nova
cry everyteim
fair crystal
haha thanks all haven been this happy for a long time π
cinder nova
grats
fair crystal
saw my mate get a 395 Howler though
cinder nova
kick him in the nuts
fair crystal
so still jelly
cinder nova
An Hpal got a 385 socketed howler on my 2nd mythic run of TD
"oops I forgot to set it to healer xD"
I wanted to peel my face off.
fair crystal
ohhhh dude
cinder nova
I was ready to commit murder
fair crystal
π¦
steel mauve
Commit sudoku
cinder nova
My cotank right now was a WW DPS that swapped BrM and he's already 381
Sitting at 375
limber ibex
New prot warrior PTR changes. Ignore pain off GCD, 5% buff on stamina and armor from strength, an extra -2 second CD on shield block. Back into the game from Cata, running arms, want to get into tanking. Is this what we need to not be shamed out of raids and mythics or nah?
steel mauve
Itll help us but its not gonna change community perception of us over night i dont think
amber siren
Yeah on mmoc and wowhead
I'm happy with the changes tbh, I wasn't expecting any meta shifts in M+
P much best we could of hoped for
fair crystal
yeah if they go thought that will be solid as fuck
red sun
crisp pecan
I am prot 8.1
silk belfry
All I see is a 0.5 sec CD why do people say it is off the GCD?
odd ridge
Click on the news channel?
vale gorge
the 0.5s cooldown is just the cooldown of the ability itself
so you need to wait between IP casts
vale gorge
junior ivy
ty
fair crystal
nah i read it to
def a nerf to DC π¦ but hey the buffs we getting are strong so π
hexed geyser
Check pinned msgs
Stam and armor buff, shield block buff, ignore pain buff
What more do you need
fair crystal
as long you hitting 3 thunder Claps while DS is up you Gravy
silk belfry
Thanks for the link
odd ridge
Wasnt asking for anything more, smogel
hexed geyser
Wasnβt saying you were
silk belfry
I almost want to fap to this but itβs not nearly enough imo
silk belfry
We still need more Rage gen or the rage costs reduced
hexed geyser
Well you get free ignore pain with avatar now hehehehhe
silk belfry
But hey, itβs a start
If we have the right Azeroth gear we do
Letβs hope we get more
Thanks for news man
flint prism
Damage is a stealth nerf in longer AoE packs since Demo shout's uptime during avatar won't be 100%
Not much though
A non-issue
15% loss with booming voice for ~6 seconds
vale gorge
if ranged phys attacks really are blockable that will be huge in m+
oblique pike
they still annoying π
soft kindle
Keep in mind you have another ring of traits in 8.1, which will help
dusky moon
Really, really good changes. Still hoping for some sort of utility or a trump card for prot, though.
vale gorge
I don't think we need more utility tbh
other tanks have utility
what we bring to the table is big dmg
instead of utility
odd ridge
Is there any speculation on when 8.1 will drop?
oblique pike
what if they gave us back raid wide leach?
hexed geyser
Honestly? Right now we are getting very close to the line where it can potential push us to becoming overtuned if they buff us any further
So from this point on do not expect any buffs
dusky moon
I more meant something along the lines of death grip, control undead, etc. Just something like that
But you're right, that damage is probably just as good
in its own way
soft kindle
We have shockwave
that helps
Lowest CD aoe stun, and it does some damage
Β―_(γ)_/Β―
crisp pecan
Where is shockwave for arms
odd ridge
Lol
crisp pecan
π
dusky moon
A little salty that "too many people have AoE stuns", then they took them all away. Then gave them back to everyone besides arms :#. But stormbolt isn't that bad
really low CD, and good/ranged
hexed geyser
To be honest you have to really understand that we might not have as much utility but we have something like 4 times the damage of all tanks?
dusky moon
Yeah, the avatar/shockwave spam is out of control on huge packs. Now that we're more durable I think it'll be able to shine
at least that's the hope
hexed geyser
Maybe abit too much indeed but you get my point
soft kindle
especially aoe
dusky moon
Wait, are we higher ST?
hexed geyser
We are much higher not just higher though
dusky moon
I know that thunderclap/avatar is nutso
hexed geyser
In aoe
final mist
Damage doesn't matter in higher M+.
There's a reason why DK is the most used tank, and 95% of it is utility.
dusky moon
Yeah, but the idea that all tanks can equally be represented in higher M+ is just a pipe dream. Whatever is strongest will be the most represented, and only one thing can be strongest in a niche. I think a lot more of us care about "viable" rather than "best"
final mist
Our damage doesn't matter when:
- We're the most punished tank for making a mistake, &
- We can't survive the sort of pulls that DK (and to a lesser extent, DH) can,
& 3. We can't even group mobs up as well as DKs can.
That's why DKs are the "best" tank for M+.
dusky moon
Playing prot in higher M+ atm is rough because we have survivablity issues. As long as those get patched up, I think we're fine
fair crystal
Sal is on the money we never gonna be the number 1 pick when DKs / DHs are around but if you get a good group and these buffs go thought we will be in a much better spot
final mist
We'll be in a better spot, sure, no doubt about that. But as long as Gorefiend's exists, we will never be #1 - or anywhere close to it.
fleet galleon
Would it make sense from a balancing perspective instead of trying to make prot less punishing, other tanks were similarly punishing?
final mist
No, making all of the tanks equally punishing is a bad mindset
amber siren
Not about being punished, it's mainly being punished on top of no additional 'meta' utility
final mist
You want to bring the bad tanks up, not the good tanks down
final mist
Their health modifier got shuffled, it still exists.
raven kernel
Indirectly nerf ds and bs healing too
fleet galleon
A common complaint including here sometimes is that tanking is too easy at least in raid so that's where I'm coming from.
final mist
No.
raven kernel
2s faster baseline sb recharge is good tho
fleet galleon
I'm all for bringing up bad tanks of course
raven kernel
Ip ogcd just means I can do more dps in avatar
raven kernel
Yeah they don't care about that
amber siren
Armour wasn't an issue in M+
hexed geyser
Itβs about 10% more dmg taken?
raven kernel
DHs have like piss armor without demon spikes
So that change will hardly affect dks
hexed geyser
Anyhow warrior is gonna be in a much better spot so letβs stay focused on that haha! And enjoy the moment!
fleet galleon
15% less armor isn't flat 10% more damage taken
hexed geyser
Dk forever will have better tools for M+ no matter how much nerfs they get
fleet galleon
Additional I believe. PTR had already been updated for the hotfix buff I think
hexed geyser
Additional
raven kernel
Oh that's nice
fleet galleon
Someone mathed and said it came to 3% more health? Idk for sure cos I haven't checked PTR
hexed geyser
Mhm
raven kernel
I kinda wish they increased the max ip cap
Sometimes I waste rage on ip during aoe pulls
plain vapor
holy cow
out dpsed so many people in my raid tonight lmao. on mythic mother and zekvoz
plain vapor
got a rank 99 parse for mother and 98 for zekvos BABY!
raven kernel
But my rage is gonna cap and I need to spend it for Anger management
vale gorge
with IP off the GCD we're going to be using Revenge more I'd guess
raven kernel
Depends on your rage
It will increase your avatar dps on aoe packs
On ST it won't change much at all
lavish oracle
So with DC getting gutted, this is gonna be more of a nerf, right?
vale gorge
yeah basically
lavish oracle
π
hexed geyser
Rightfully so though
raven kernel
We all agree dc is too strong
hexed geyser
DC was so strong compared to other traits it ainβt even funny
lavish oracle
Yeah, but the buffs they're implementing should like...y'know cancel out the difference in survivablility ideally
raven kernel
We'll get more stuff
lavish oracle
I am not confident that's true
raven kernel
Might not be direct buffs anymore but tweaks to ability flow etc
vale gorge
but since we don't have to waste a GCD on IP anymore, it frees up more GCDs to spend on rage generation, which we'll have to spend somewhere
plain vapor
wait they are taking away DC?
odd ridge
Rofl
raven kernel
Like I said it's mainly avatar period that's affected
lavish oracle
They're capping the duration extension
woeful reef
What does the 2s cooldown reduction end up being after average haste values are factored in? like 1.2-1.5s?
lavish oracle
to 6 seconds
vale gorge
DC is still going to be great
plain vapor
link where
raven kernel
Only like you just hit devastate and it reset ss but you need to put up ip right now
So that ss gets delayed 1 gcd
So yeah marginal rage gen increase on st
vale gorge
yes
quiet kettle
tbh im happiest that physical ranged atks can be blocked
the ip change is nice, but that one is big
raven kernel
That's very nice
quiet kettle
no more shuddering on throw rock
raven kernel
So pretty much only have to be wary of spells
Everything else will tickle us thru shield block
odd ridge
With our low intellect it takes us a few months to learn to raise our shield when mobs throw rocks at us
raven kernel
On mixed packs the ranged being blockable means ip also doesn't get chewed up as fast = more ip remaining for magic dmg
hexed geyser
Yep
sick sentinel
raise it just a few inches higher so those rocks dont keep headshotting us for huge damage.
manic perch
check the pins @topaz badger couple of changes on ptr
hexed geyser
Itβs exactly how it was in legion now
manic perch
yeah i really was amped for the leap idea someone posted that gives us a type of gorefiends ggrasp
sick sentinel
lol
hexed geyser
I can most definitely live with the buffs we got now
raven kernel
Eh not much has changed tbh
topaz badger
I remember in the interview they were like prot warrs have "rotational issues"
raven kernel
Yes they did say that
So I still expect a few more changes
But prob won't be actual buffs
sick sentinel
16s shield block recharge before haste is super nutty....
raven kernel
if devastate generated X rage it would be real nice for ST
sick sentinel
biggest change to me though is BLOCKING RANGED ATTACKS AGAIN.
raven kernel
Think 3 to 5 would be a nice number
sick sentinel
the rest is "ok, nice, didn't really need imo. but still nice"
quiet kettle
prot doesnt really need 'buffs' outside of our mastery, but every QoL is basically a big buff for us atm
even devastate generating like 1-2 rage per hit would be a rather big QoL
clear arrow
Oh man, that deafening crash nerf though....
sweet kettle
its ok
vale gorge
it's not that bad
sweet kettle
better to nerf the trait and make the spec playable
lavish oracle
It's pretty bad on magic damage heavy fights
the other buffs will probably even it out for physical heavy stuff
But it's about a 30% drop in demo up-time
dark junco
^ if not more.
lavish oracle
It's also really bad for bleeds
lavish oracle
I'd feel much better about it if they just gave us better tools to deal with non-physical damage
like a bigger IP pool
quiet kettle
a bigger IP would just make it even better at phys too
urban walrus
So a bigger ip pool would only really help burst magic damage, SR deals with that good enough with our current IP no?
quiet kettle
for some fights, yes. others have shorter burst windows that dont have SR up in time
urban walrus
Shorter burst, so sustained damage, I don't think we have the rage gen to cap IP a lot
lavish oracle
Yeah, true, sustained magic damage would still bite us in the ass
quiet kettle
i'd rather SB got sumthing like a chance to reduce incoming magic dmg taken while active, not a guaranteed like the block mechanic
urban walrus
Sure if they increased the cap by like 15% that would be a nice qol, but I think you feel we need more?
quiet kettle
honestly IP is one of the biggest things on 'hps' meters right now so
urban walrus
I agree the cap feels low
quiet kettle
cap is maybe a tad low, but its fine otherwise
lavish oracle
Maybe they could change our mastery to block a percentage of magic damage? shrug
quiet kettle
ya just rebrand our mastery into magical DR during SB
lavish oracle
Yeah, but most tanks have self-healing
quiet kettle
prot warr is literally the only tank without baseline self-heals that arent kill reliant
lavish oracle
self-healing lets them deal with any kind incoming damage to some degree
urban walrus
Only bdk in a meaningful way, we are talking Vs bursty sustained damage?
quiet kettle
on magic dmg heavy dungeons i actually talent into the VR talent
having that 20% whenever u need it is actually really useful for magic dmg
lime wing
375 Mythrax Trinker or 365 Jes' Howler? Any ideas?
lavish oracle
Jes' imo
lime wing
I couldn't find any tips about trinkets anywhere
quiet kettle
situational
lavish oracle
Unless you find yourself dropping below 50% health a lot
urban walrus
Okay so yeah in an m+ environment, we struggle with magic damage agreed, some utility might help with that
lime wing
Blockades Deck still BiS, right?
lavish oracle
For survivability, yes
lime wing
Ok, thank you guys
quiet kettle
its only real source of self-healing without talent into the VR one
lavish oracle
I wish they'd put Impending Victory on another row, I'd be more willing to take it over say crackling thunder than ITF
urban walrus
Yeah it does seem a fbm choice when you really want that heal
lavish oracle
I might even be persuaded to take it over Bolster in some situations
quiet kettle
personally CT is really only a fort/skittish talent
urban walrus
That's lunacy honestly
lavish oracle
I would 100% take it on Vectis, I think
quiet kettle
hasnt been taken all of last xpac either
leaden kernel
i miss heroic strike
urban walrus
But I do think it's nice we are perfectly viable in mythic raids
quiet kettle
were actually one of the better tanks for mythic tbh
warrs fit quite well into the mostly ST situations
and u can do some rather interesting things like intercept ur other tank during fetid
quiet kettle
well obv
lavish oracle
I miss Vigilance
urban walrus
I learnt that the wrong way
leaden kernel
i wish they made it so intercept did'nt make nearly all boss mechanics to hit you instead
they just seem to obvious to try and hel your cotank
quiet kettle
it was actually designed to help healers who got aggro
urban walrus
Tbh warriors are stupid strong on fetid
leaden kernel
having demoralising shout for about minute straight is super nice
quiet kettle
u can critical block the entirety of thrash
urban walrus
Yeah you can tank and off tank better than most tanks
quiet kettle
more like u can be the tank and the offtank at the same time, with no downfalls
urban walrus
I was checking my ehrps while tanking and off tanking and it was really low compared to other parses
quiet kettle
thrash, auto, intercept, auto, auto thrash and ur still just fine
urban walrus
I don't think you can really do both
Maybe with a lot of basket attention
Healer*
quiet kettle
just do it during a shield wall moment
urban walrus
I mean I can't think it would ever be needed though
urban walrus
Save SW for p2 so less healer attention needed
lavish oracle
Are we still going to be using Demo on CD do you think? There's not really going to be a reason to line it up with Avatar anymore
Would it be better to save it for high magic damage periods or use it as much as possible to keep the uptime as high as possible
mortal carbon
it is for dps
clear delta
max uptime prolly
urban walrus
I can't see that being worth
What's cd of TC? And base station of Demo?
Duration*
lavish oracle
Base duration of demo is 8 seconds, not sure what the base CD of TC is, I wanna say 6 seconds?
Mine's down to 4 in most situations
cinder bridge
IP OFF THE GCD PRAISE THE MAKERS
wind plank
leaden kernel
IP off GCD will feel alot better but does it do anything for us when were in single target situations where we are not swimming in rage
zinc mauve
@lavish oracle the current skill usage for me is like this
Avatar + demo shout
wait until demo shout is up and then use it
Avatar + demo shout should be up together
tahts how it usually lines up for me
if you know what you're doing you can get away with saving demo shout for something other than avatar, but generally, you get more damage from using the two in tandem
trail dagger
Soooo. I heard we can block Ranged Attacks now on PtR?
lavish oracle
Yeah, I was more talking about post-PTR changes, you'll still be able to line them up but there won't be such a huge reason to for survivabiltity
There'll definitely still be a reason to for damage
zinc mauve
it still does all of those things though
the average 'good' prot warrior has 70-80% uptime currently on demo shout
post patch it should be about 50% with DC
lavish oracle
It'll cap at around 40%
zinc mauve
the nuance of that depends on how fast you're spending your rage and if you're efficient
efficient rage generation with spamming intercept can markedly increase uptimes of demoshout and avatar
lavish oracle
Yeah, single target anyways you shouldn't be able to get it much higher than 40% post-patch
zinc mauve
i agree
lavish oracle
with IP off the GCD you might be able to do way better in M+
zinc mauve
id say you will do better
the hardest pulls for prot warrior are: Magic damage heavy pulls; or ranged heavy pulls
ranged mobs of note are those stupid archers in King's Rest
and the miniboss
leaden kernel
or
zinc mauve
throw rock doesnt do that much damage, its the fact taht it just gets thrown over and over and over again
it casts so fast
lavish oracle
Yeah, that'll be fixed next patch, thankfully
We'll just have to worry about magic damage
zinc mauve
what im really wondering is how will shadow of Zul be
lavish oracle
And bleed
zinc mauve
previously, on fortified weeks, you would HAVE TO Lust on him or get brez'd
leaden kernel
but with ignore paing of gcd we have more time to generate rage rather than putting IP up
zinc mauve
its more that we cap on rage in m+
and cant spend it fast enough
cant use revenge in a big pull because its free so that wont burn rage
by cant use, i mean you cant use it to burn off rage
leaden kernel
i was more talking about zul, you are right though
zinc mauve
kings rest zul or uldir zul
leaden kernel
kings
zinc mauve
yeah i agree with that
but the thing is, his 'spells' cannot be reflected
so i think hes actually ranged
so... maybe we can block his attacks?
that'd be wicked
lavish oracle
Aren't they shadow bolts?
zinc mauve
its an attack that applies a debuff
leaden kernel
zinc mauve
its uninterruptable and cannot be spell reflected
lavish oracle
Oh, my bad, was thinking Shadow of Zul
leaden kernel
this doc doesnt say anything about it being reflected but its magic damage we know at least
oh wait
zinc mauve
thats what im referring to
its because it applies a debuff
thats the magic damage
from shadow of zul
lavish oracle
Ah
zinc mauve
its a ticking dot
leaden kernel
we could actually man out the debuff if we focus on rage gen and IP rather tahn just having a pally bop it off us
zinc mauve
once again, im referring to shadow of zul in Kings Rest, not Uldir
i dont have any logs that contain kings rest
errant stirrup
hey guys
having a discussion
regardless of class
if you aer tank spec, it stops you from getting dazed off your mount right?
leaden kernel
i still expect booming voice to be best, but with IP of gcd do you thing vengeance could see use
weary nacelle
hey , folks, good day to you all. Hope all is well!
Can anyone translate the below :
ionic fern
violet coral
yes aaron
odd ridge
Max duration 6 seconds
leaden kernel
3 thunger claps then thats it
fleet galleon
@weary nacelle Thunder clap can only extend the duration of Demo Shout by max 6 seconds
chilly brook
@zinc mauve wait did I miss something? Are they actually nerfing DC on ptr?
ionic fern
Read pins
chilly brook
Oof
lavish oracle
@errant stirrup You can still get dazed while mounted but it takes a lot more damage
zinc mauve
@chilly brook its a valid nerf given the buffs we got
we can block ranged attacks on PTR
fleet galleon
Not sure I agree with ^
zinc mauve
and IP is off of GCD
errant stirrup
got it, thanks!
weary nacelle
Oh my.. so basically 3 times clap and Demo shout cannot be increased any further.
fleet galleon
About being enough to balance it
last hull
the ranged block change is so gucci
chilly brook
TBH I donβt think thatβs a good trade
topaz ember
I just want to cry tears of joy
lavish oracle
I mean, it definitely balances out in Physical damage situations, but yeah, no where close for magic damage, like I mentioned before
fleet galleon
Yeah, it needed a nerf. But we need further buffs and not much appears to be done regarding how punishing the spec is
zinc mauve
its only really bad on magic damage heavy fights such as vectis
chilly brook
Vanguard buff will be a nice EHP boost (again), SB recharge is nice but not as much as I would have liked
echo egret
the GCD change will make the spec much more fluid, but is that enough to counter the utility and surviving tools that have been given to other tanks (BDK, DH...) ?
chilly brook
And IP off gcd wonβt really help us numerically
zinc mauve
depends on how you're looking at it
ionic fern
In AoE situations it should be bonkers.
zinc mauve
in raids? it absolutely wont help us much
topaz ember
It will help in m+ moreso than in raids
zinc mauve
but in m+ is where that change shines as orangebeard has said
lavish oracle
Yeah, it'll definitely help us when we're getting raged capped
chilly brook
Not really
topaz ember
i don't want to look at it
chilly brook
We donβt generate enough rage for IP being off the GCD to make that big of a difference
zinc mauve
currently, a 'good' prot warrior gets between 50-70% demo shout uptime i'd say per encounter
more likely towards the high end
this change makes it so demo shout effectively always has a 14 second duration
chilly brook
Which is kinda aids
zinc mauve
in an encounter that is 2 minutes long, assuming you can cast demo shout 4 times thanks to spending rage with anger management
4 * 14 = 56 seconds
so thats 46~% uptime
its obviously a nerf, dont get me wrong
and its still a very powerful trait
its just not 'holy fuck if you dont have it ur gonna get owned lmaozorz'
echo egret
well at the moment I'm locked with 340 pauldrons because of that trait, despite 385 in my bags, I hope this will balance it
chilly brook
If they had actually buffed IP I would see it as a fair trade
But they didnβt
π
zinc mauve
i dont think this is all they're going to do, if i were to be honest
lavish oracle
still feels like they need to buff our magic damage mitigation tools if they're gonna hit our current magic damage work-horse
zinc mauve
i think this definitely puts us in a much better place for mythic plus
for raids i think that's left to be seen
last hull
just give us 1 useful utility skill and im happy
leaden kernel
dispell on shield slam
lavish oracle
As a blood elf, that'd barely do anything for me, haha
lavish oracle
I agree, banner me
leaden kernel
banners could be cool, could make us very different from other tanks, like how monks and dks are much different tanks from the others
last hull
BANNER UP <<<
lavish oracle
Mocking banner, please
zinc mauve
that or a shout
leaden kernel
replace ravager with a super abnner
zinc mauve
oh god i got it
topaz badger
We should be able to dual wield banners
oblique garnet
oh baby its time for a weekly cache of dissapointments
topaz badger
Ohhh it's cacheday
zinc mauve
Mocking banner ; glyph of ms paint, you can MS paint whatever you want to be the image on your banner
strong forum
chilly brook
I mean I really think ravager would be better replaced with a banner that gave the group something
last hull
rvager would be better replace by a wet noodle
strong forum
We got it boys
leaden kernel
banner of SUCC
oblique garnet
Why are you lying
strong forum
IP off gcd
chilly brook
We also got DC nerfed pretty heavily @strong forum
strong forum
Oh
leaden kernel
but we can block ranged attacks
last hull
dc nerf was needed (and expected)
chilly brook
And that being off the GCD doesnβt really help us out in defense
I wouldnβt say it was needed
lavish oracle
I mean, if we were rolling every other tank in every situation, sure it'd be needed
chilly brook
Itβs not like weβre sitting here taking drastically less damage than other tanks
zinc mauve
Blizzard in 8.2 'We saw many protection warriors talking about this skill called 'ravager'. After our internal review, we found this spell to be quite interesting. So interesting in fact that we have added it to every single tier in the protection warrior's talent tree, just to make sure every protection warrior has it'
chilly brook
DC will still likely be BiS
zinc mauve
yep
chilly brook
But weβve lost the skill cap tbh
zinc mauve
just not 45 ilvls worth
if anything the skill cap was raised because any dummy can press ip at the wrong time and virtually fuck themselves when they could have used shield block instead
lavish oracle
On the bright side, I'll have an 11 second CD on SB, which is pretty nice
zinc mauve
the skill floor was just lowered
zinc mauve
ah fair enough
leaden kernel
i cant believe we still have ravager
zinc mauve
the main 'bad thing' if you can even call it bad about the old DC is that with the amount of haste you had in raids, you could easily get demo shout so long taht by the time it comes off cooldown, the one you have active has a longer duration than if oyu were to re apply the buff
chilly brook
Use it anyways for the rage π
zinc mauve
so you'd have to hold onto it until you needed it again, which often times led to you waiting even longer for avatar to come off CD since it was so close
ive done it before
feels BAD
oblique garnet
thats not that big of an nerf to dc tbh
chilly brook
Itβs pretty big
oblique garnet
Well yeah you no longer can have 12 sec Demo with bl
chilly brook
Being capped at 6 second extension is a big nerf
leaden kernel
having a ful minute of 20% reduced damge vs 14 seconds
chilly brook
No like you canβt get it to last longer than 14 seconds
oblique garnet
You can
chilly brook
Once youβve added 6 seconds to it youβre no longer extending the duration
oblique garnet
Wait really?
strong forum
Yes
oblique garnet
It works like that?
strong forum
Maybe it stacks though
oblique garnet
So the ip change is also on PTR still?
leaden kernel
oh boy i sure would love to farm 3 DC pieces
chilly brook
Weβre basically moving to making all azerite traits less interesting and more homogeneous in terms of the impact they have which is imo the opposite of what you want a system like azerite gear to do
last hull
isnt like azerite was interesting anyway
leaden kernel
arnt they adding another ring that outside the one we have now and that has all the iompactfull choices
last hull
dc or bust
leaden kernel
and all the centre ones you arnt supposed to think about
chilly brook
Sure we were locked into DC @last hull but the trait was interesting and actually had an effect on the spec
And how it played
DC was the model of how traits should have been imo
zinc mauve
yes absolutely, but the problem is, unless they bring the other traits in line with DC or nerf it down, then there is a large disparity in traits
chilly brook
Instead of generic metric boost number 7
static lance
Yeah, and traits like DC are hard to balance. Because its not just a flat numerical value, its hard to define its actual impact on gameplay.
So you get nerfs like these.
chilly brook
Well tbh blizz already gave up on traits
Thereβs a reason theyβve been pushing so hard to make them all so close
static lance
well, if you have a clear BiS trait, like we do, then you have players bitching and whining about not being able to get said trait.
and if you make them all homogenized, we complain that they're boring.
finding the middle ground isnt easy.
chilly brook
I mean vendors is an easy answer
But for some reason they were so hell bent on not having vendors or putting azerite gear in m+
leaden kernel
are you saying we should be able to farm for traits we want
chilly brook
Absolutely
static lance
of course, but that doesnt really solve the underlying issue. if there is a BiS trait and you can get it from a vendor (which we will be able to soon), then there's no reason to aim for the other traits.
which means that the BiS trait will get nerfed anyway.
chilly brook
Make different traits good for different situations
Itβs not really all that crazy of an idea
boreal haven
Did you see 8.1. Changes with Armor+HP increase and the increased Duration ofDsS up to 6 sec with TC ? Also the SB CD Reduce... Love it
static lance
we can all say that Blizzard should buff the other traits to make them better, but when have they ever done that?
chilly brook
Itβs like legendaries. Some were better suited to certain situations
last hull
dont think i agree @chilly brook . if anything i think blizz learned a lot on what types of azerite traits they should make. take a look at the new DH for example. its HUGE
static lance
well, for that to work, they'd have to allow gear-changing in M+
chilly brook
But then again
last hull
can probably expect same level of traits for all classes
chilly brook
Blizz shot themselves in the foot
static lance
that was the dumbest decision they made, imo
chilly brook
And donβt allow you to gear swap
static lance
yeah
chilly brook
@last hull they shouldnβt have had a bunch of generic traits they should have stuck with spec specific traits and actually made them intuitive. Have actual interactions with the abilities
last hull
which they seem to be making
static lance
also, that isn't as easy as it sounds. coming up with 6 unique traits for each spec, all of which are supposed to be balanced is quite daunting.
i mean, the Legion leggos mostly had non-numeric stuff, but people just used Prydaz and the bracers anyway.
chilly brook
Maybe, but they also have how much class specific content thatβs been cut out of the game?
All the traits on our weapon, legendaries, set bonuses
Etc.
Old ability interactions
static lance
well, would you prefer old stuff to make a comeback or would you prefer them to experiment with new stuff?
chilly brook
Iβd prefer old design
Much more than the new stuff tbh
The philosophy is much different today than it used to be
static lance
some people don't. it can get dull if you feel your character not evolving over time.
echo egret
when you carefully think of it on a very broad perspective, character combat skills customisation can only end up in a backlash
leaden kernel
it would be nice if we didnt lose abilities
chilly brook
We have a roller coaster of character growth now when compared to say vanilla wow or even Wrath
last hull
while i like that blizz experiment and try new stuff, they did go a bit overboard with class pruning in bfa
static lance
they went overboard with pruning in Legion.
they just made up for it with artifacts and leggos
last hull
well yea
chilly brook
But thatβs the problem
echo egret
the Great Pruning started in WoD
chilly brook
All this pruning means we have to have systems in place to substitute
And when the systems fail......
leaden kernel
cant wait to lose my heart of azeroth and replace it with the one ring
static lance
yeah, i agree @chilly brook
I dont think azerite is completely beyond rescue, though.
chilly brook
TLDR game design is a huge problem now because you have the old combatting the new
WoW was designed to work without said things
static lance
WoW has gotten too big over time.
chilly brook
(Talent trees etc.)
static lance
too much legacy.
and new developers want to place their mark on the game, which clashes with the desires of players and legacy systems... it gets messy.
and not everyone is going to be happy.
echo egret
Game Design is also a problem because a generalized ego overgrowth in the rockstars-game-devs community
which makes them deaf
raven kernel
End vanilla to tbc to wrath was the best times
static lance
and also a growing sense of entitlement amongst players, too.
pallid hollow
It's kinda funny how iconic "shield block" was first introduced as a way to decreases ranged attack back in Warcraft 3, but just now able to block ranged attack in WoW xd
echo egret
entitlment to have fun, I'd say, and not have a second job for subscription retainment
static lance
and the problem is that fun is subjective. what some find fun, others find to be a chore. and vice versa.
Blizzard has to find a middle ground to appeal to most players most of the time, which means some players some of the time will be displeased.
echo egret
I don't think many players find the overabundance of RNG that appeared in Legion "fun" when it goes to extreme bad luck - yet RNG growth is Blizzard's current way to retain subs.
static lance
i agree, somewhat.
back in Wrath, which was when i was last serious about the game, bad luck meant not getting any loot at all during the raid week.
now, its getting an item that is trash.
not sure which feels worse.
raven kernel
Would it be too much to ask for a passive that let our armor mitigate bleeds π€
echo egret
it's getting 1 trash item per week for 5 weeks in a row
raven kernel
What do you mean about wrath loot
pallid hollow
Bleeds is supposed to be a bypass armor, that's the whole point of bleeds.
raven kernel
If u didn't get loot it meant other people in raid got loot over u
pallid hollow
Yeah but eventually you'll be the one that get loot. Unless you're in a pug or shit guild
static lance
ok. it still meant that you didnt get any loot.
pallid hollow
plus there's Emblem vendor
raven kernel
Sure but at least the loot is directed where your guild wants
pallid hollow
Raiding is team effort, it's better for someone to get gear to help the raid to kill thing faster than having no loot drop (or cannot be traded)
raven kernel
Personal loot would be horrible in vanilla
pallid hollow
With so many other way of getting loot, i don't understand why Master loot is removed
raven kernel
Cos you absolutely needed your tanks to be geared af
static lance
now we're talking about master looter. my point was about the abundance of loot you get personally by doing content in BFA, which might be trash, versus getting no loot at all back in Wrath.
pallid hollow
ESPECIALLY with tier set now removed
static lance
like, which one feels worse, as a player?
raven kernel
I don't feel Ive gotten more loot in bfa though?
static lance
loot you can actually use, or loot in general?
pallid hollow
because you ended up DE'ing or selling them lol
raven kernel
I'm definitely not including wq rewards
Dungeon and raid drops in general, I don't feel an increase
raven kernel
And my raid as a whole is far less optimally geared as compared to master loot
static lance
well, its been a while since Wrath. I'm not certain how much useable loot I used to get on a weekly basis.
I do remember going weeks without getting an upgrade, though.
raven kernel
Well I only took near bis or bis upgrades pretty much
static lance
Sure, the raid might get an upgrade and that's nice, but its not me, personally.
I mean, you can be happy that your friend got an upgrade and still be disappointed that you didnt.
raven kernel
That's good though
regal island
kinda think they should have gone the trinket route with azerite
static lance
i think the loss of master looter means that you can be disappointed that you didn't get an upgrade and a double disappointment because you cant give your friend an upgrade haha
regal island
eh it feels weird, i've gone an entire run of heroic with 0 drops off any boss
only 2 other plate in my raidgroup soo if it's an ilvl upgrade but bad stats for them i'm still SOL
static lance
I guess I also dont feel too bad about the loss of master looter because my guild never used to run with it (we're super casual).
and I dont really raid now except on alt runs where I get carried
but i understand the complaints other people have
it wasnt a thing that needed to be removed
raven kernel
The removal of choice is the issue yea
upbeat sable
Hows with the new prot 8.1 changes. Are we still available on mythic+
static lance
we've always been viable on m+
smoky mesa
Can someone tell me how much DC is worth? I got it only on a 340 piece and could change this for 370 (IF).
regal island
it's viable but dont expect to be pushing m+20 or anything like that
regal island
yeah that DC nerf sucks but it's to make room for new az traits
they are kicking out the DC crutch for prot
regal island
eh being able to dump IP off GCD will be amazeballs
upbeat sable
I am finding it hard to get invited as a tank prot for m10, forced me to play dps all the time
raven kernel
Nay
regal island
IP cap is still a little bit low for my liking
like 1.5IP = cap
so the ooo shit i'm gonna die IP spam is pretty much useless.
leaden kernel
the cap is 1.3 isnt it
regal island
yeah it's stupid low
dapper kayak
@leaden kernel yes
raven kernel
Yeah I'd like the cap to be 2x
leaden kernel
i still see it as pretty good, most of the times were swimming in rage the IP get chuuncked so its not bad
static lance
yeah, they need to increase it
regal island
it needs to be 2.5
static lance
also need to increase the base absorb value
raven kernel
Some pulls in m+ my ip actually lasts forever
That I'm overcapping it everytime I dump rage for Anger management
dapper kayak
@regal island it seems ti be too much
regal island
maybe but at least 2xIP normal value
static lance
honestly, there needs to be some kind of interaction with SB and SR where if you use both, you block all spells for 5 seconds.
regal island
seeing as you can double tap IP and waiste basically 70% off the second IP
raven kernel
Give us back mass Sr too pls
regal island
with a 1/2 sec cd on it...
stone crag
well it's not nearly as bad as hand of the protector was for Paladin in Legion with 2 charges, both being off and sort of GCD
stone crag
0.5 is still plenty of time not to waste another
raven kernel
0.5 is basically newb protection
dapper kayak
Have you seen Sense paying? He doesnt use IP on m+ trash
raven kernel
He has to dump rage somewhere
regal island
eh just means i can weave IP in a castsequence without as many issues
dapper kayak
He dumps it in dps
leaden kernel
shield block is strong and if your healer is nice just mash the revenge key for sick dps
stone crag
are you sense though?
raven kernel
In aoe pulls my revenge is always free
neon tangle
Has anyone done the math on how much haste we need to get to 100% SB uptime after the CD reduction?
regal island
but the way IP currently is makes Never Surrender basically un-useable without addons
dapper kayak
You can press revenge as early as possible for a dot ans dump rage
stone crag
what
raven kernel
First rage dump on aoe pull is sb
raven kernel
Usually by then my revenge is free
regal island
idk you need 50% haste to have a 75% uptime
regal island
any more than that just isn't feasable
neon tangle
@regal island with bolster or no?
raven kernel
With itf and array yes eventually
raven kernel
I like my mastery set for m+ tho
dapper kayak
SB cd will be 16 secs instead of 18
regal island
I think the IP changes in 8.1 will make veangance & never surrender much much better
pretty much just macro them together and spam away
dapper kayak
How can you spam never surrender ?
regal island
/castsequence Revenge,Ignore Pain
stone crag
??
regal island
47 rage vs 70 rage and easily spammable
stone crag
how is revenge related to never surrender
regal island
because they reduce the rage cost for eachother and ip will be off gcd
stone crag
vengeance???
regal island
yeah and never surrender makes your IP deminish faster
normally absorbs 50% of the hit
neon tangle
While youβre at it, might as well try best served cold
regal island
with never surrender that scales up to 100% of the hit taken
regal island
think 1232221
mortal carbon
why they wait for 8.1 to make the prot buffs go live :sad:
regal island
because without the new traits comming in 8.1 the DC nerf will hurt a lot more
weary nacelle
i already feel like DC will be replaceable without much of a problem.
when the new traits get introduced , of course.
dapper kayak
@weary nacelle the purpose of the change is to make it replacable
analog pewter
oh the trait that gives you ignore pain when you cast avatar π€
regal island
eh i'll probably learn twards bloodsport
the ilvl scaling is actually pretty nuts
and with never surrender it's actually kinda under the radar atm
stone crag
did i miss the beginning of this, why are you pushing NS so fucking hard
regal island
in 8.1 with IP off gcd pretty much anything IP related gets much better
dapper kayak
Ns and IP makes you invulnerable?
regal island
Ok say right now you have DC, an uldar trait and w/e other trait like brace or iron fortress like most do
Now imagine you have 1 bloodsport thats 5k dmg asorb at 385 per IP cast mutiplied by vers (i'm about 10% vers in my prot set) and then multiplied again by NS
sick sentinel
You will end up with big IPs and overcapping rage
fathom marten
Been eating popcorn this whole time watching people argue about the prot changes. Very entertaining.
regal island
so 5500-11000 per trait absorbed damage each cast off gcd
regal island
say next raid has an ulduar style trait thats 2 bloodsports for 11000-22000 per cast
stone crag
definitely doesn't make NS even considerable
static lance
actually, i've heard that the Leech from Bloodsport can be considerable.
stone crag
heard wrong
regal island
eh 64 leach at 385, it's noticeable on aoe pulls but not amazing
static lance
I have 2 of them myself, because they just happen to be the highest ilvl pieces I have.
fathom marten
Seems people are over reacting to the DC nerf imo.
next sable
I still run Archive, DC, and Brace for Impact π
regal island
well it's a pretty big nerf to unstoppable force
sick sentinel
Dude, I have bloodsport on a 370 piece, the leach is 1%
stone crag
marginal amount of leech
static lance
64%? that can't be right.
regal island
like those massive aoe pulls prot warriors can do are gonna hit back hard once Demo drops in it's new max 14 sec
static lance
oh wait, 64.
fathom marten
It is not a big nerf to unstoppable force. -2 seconds when we have the ablility to maintain uptime with TC is really not that bad.
oblique garnet
It depends how the change works
If it increases demo shouts duration by max 6 seconds its huge nerf
regal island
well it basically just gives 1 demo a max 14 sec duration
oblique garnet
Thats if it works like that
static lance
actually, with IP off the GCD, we'd be able to rage dump better, which means DS comes off CD faster. we probably wont be able to have ~70% uptime anymore, but it won't be that big a drop off, I think.
fathom marten
Until I see logs that show demo uptime dropping drastically, I'm not convinced this is a huge nerf.
Combined with less overall mit
regal island
@oblique garnet how else can it possible work?
oblique garnet
You know how sometimes you could get 12sec on Demo with bl and thunderclap spam
static lance
it means using Rage on IPs that are mostly wasted, but as long as you have enough Rage to SB when needed, its whatever.
static lance
besides, our passive mitigation is going up, so it'll probably balance out
not just 2 seconds.
fathom marten
^
static lance
a lot more than 2 seconds.
fathom marten
Well obviously allegorically it's not a total of 2 seconds
static lance
You could get a 30sec DS with BL. now you can get 14sec max.
oblique garnet
have you tried it on ptr?
fathom marten
@static lance Where is this math done?
static lance
i still dont think itll be a big nerf on overall mitigation, cos of Vanguard, block and SB buffs.
fathom marten
@static lance Not trying to be an ass just want to see the evidence
static lance
Math about what? the current DS uptime or the PTR one?
oblique garnet
I honestly dont think its gonna work like that given how our rotation plays out
static lance
all I'm saying is that some of the 20% DR from DS is getting shifted to our passives. With IP off-GCD, we'd be able to react a bit better to spikes.
fathom marten
I guess I'm missing something. WHere are you getting 8+6
static lance
it means we might want to save up Rage at the beginning of the encounter, cos DS + SB up means IP is less necessary and then use IP more when DS drops.
fathom marten
You're talking about 6 being the total added uptime to DS from DC ?
static lance
Current DS last 8 secs. Deafening Crash on the PTR gives a maximum 6 second extension to DS on the PTR.
8+6=14
fathom marten
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
stone crag
quick maths
solid quail
Yes or No,
Do the protection warrior changes make them competitive with other tanks.
fathom marten
I understood the PTR change wrong
static lance
they've always been competitive.
fathom marten
My apologies
static lance
no worries, man
solid quail
And an honest answer?
static lance
they've always been competitive.
vale gorge
Finboar just stick to playing DK
fathom marten
I mean, it'll really hurt us on boss fights
fathom marten
Longer fights
solid quail
Well I was expecting the protection warrior discord to atleast know their class is currently bottom tier
By a margin
And I was asking about the changes
regal island
ok so look at one of the top fetid kills, pretty much 100% on the boss active tanking.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xLPT3MBGtAfpH2Db#fight=27&type=casts&source=35
currently 11 DS casts in a 4min 46 sec fight and 71% uptime. Meaning 203 seconds of DS for an average of 18.5sec duration off each DS
fathom marten
lol