how are you seeing a nerf
#protection
stone crag
chrome falcon
DC nerf
chrome harbor
not gonna complain about a more fluid playstyle, but i think IP still needs to absorb a bit more ya know
chrome falcon
Is more impactful than everything else
hazy flame
You think that counteracts massive DC uptime loss?
cinder nova
@chrome falcon You mean we need a new class Dev lead
chrome harbor
we did get a new class lead
solid mist
someone on class dev team that tanks with Prot maybe?
chrome falcon
@cinder nova I am pretty much 100% sure no-one on the class dev team plays prot warrior
stone crag
or tank at all
chrome falcon
^
cinder nova
Lots of other class devs were really open and communicative during BFA Beta
chrome harbor
which ones?
candid path
It helps, but 14s on Demo Shout + 5% Armor/Stam is still a net negative compared with 20-40s Demo Shouts.
cinder nova
Ours never talked more than a handful of times
chrome harbor
I play a warrior, mage and shaman i dont think i heard a peep
cinder nova
Most of the king classes, unsurprisingly
astral crystal
chrome falcon
It's almost like only 50% of the specs actually got finished going into BFA hahahaha 😃
cinder nova
Whew lad
chrome falcon
Whew indeed
chrome harbor
while minor, i think the fact that not a single brazier or campfire in the capital works with cooking means that they might have missed a few things, specs included
specs being a bit more important
cinder nova
Lol
solid mist
the real shit right here
cinder nova
I mean
sand egret
haha he aint wrong
cinder nova
Ravager still exists
supple path
One of the big reasons I'm happy about the DC nerf is because they were either nerfing that or avatar.
solid mist
WHERE IS MY SPIRIT BUFF ON THIS CAMPFIRE DEAD GAME
cinder nova
If that's not a huge red flag
steel mauve
There are cooking fires in zandalar that doesnt work for cooking
lime wing
"Ravager still exists" // prot warrior problems in a nutshell
solid mist
lol
scenic mica
genuinley
stone crag
not wrong, having this many dead talents fucking sucks
scenic mica
do WoW devs play the game?
chrome harbor
i mean when youre locked into talents aren't most of them dead?
chrome falcon
Honestly I think these changes are a pretty hefty buff for M+ (though not enough for us to actually be good since our utility is still non-existent) but effectively irrelevant for raid. If you didn't already have basically 100% block uptime in raid you were doing something very wrong, and DC was very very strong in raids.
neon tangle
@candid path also higher SB uptime will be good
cinder nova
Fucking hell it just hurts that we told them it was awful all the way through legion
supple path
I'd love meaningful choices like "these talents are better ST" "these are better AE" "these are better for short fights" etc. yeah.
sand egret
i'd wait for the talent portion of the changes to come in before we bring out the torches
stone crag
¯_(ツ)_/¯
chrome harbor
granted ravager is dead dead, super dead....like hollywood video dead
cinder nova
And it still made it out unchanged
scenic mica
the changes may not affect m+ that much but prot NEEDS raid buffs
candid path
@neon tangle that is true
chrome falcon
Ravager and Indom being in the game is frankly fucking offensive
Prot does not need raid buffs
scenic mica
in mythic prot is functional
supple path
Prot needs M+ buffs more than it needs raid buffs.
stark sage
ravager wouldnt be dead if it was on a row full of other equally dead talents :smart:
chrome falcon
Prot is PERFECTLY fine in raids. BrM is just extremely overpowered
stone crag
ravager would be dead if it was given baseline
chrome harbor
i think we passed the indom buff already with hotfixes already didnt we?
sand egret
(talent changes haven't happened)
heady citrus
im not upset by dc nerf. makes it more fluid not having to wear azerite 40+ ilvl lower because of DC
stone crag
in it's current tuning
cinder nova
It wouldn't be worth pressing Rav even if it was baseline
stark sage
damage wise it is very bad, but the parry is actually measurable
candid path
@scenic mica Exactly. Despite being underrepresented in M+, it's reasonably competitive at moderate levels. It isn't in raids.
old night
@stark sage ravager, punish, and indom on the same row
stark sage
defensively it would be worth a GCD
old night
the useless row
cinder nova
Parry hurts rage green
sand egret
or the BEST row
stark sage
hmm indom best in that row @old night
chrome harbor
id take punish probably
scenic mica
@candid path I can do +12s in time reliably if the group has a decent comp
neon tangle
also possible that this won't be the only tuning we see, we're still a ways off from 8.1 landing and DKs have seen a pile of changes / tweaks
scenic mica
as prot
sand egret
psh gimme that rav
chrome falcon
Also, Ravager was designed around previous iterations of Revenge where parrying reset the cooldown or actually allowed you to cast it
old night
it would be hard to make a garbage row now that I think of it
fair root
Prot dosnt really need m+ buffs. We just need some more utilty. Something we can bring that dks cant. A reason to bring a prot warrior over something with aoe grips or taunts
supple path
@scenic mica That's the equiv of saying "we can tank heroic we're fine"
old night
fuck it, 3 ravagers in a row
solid mist
I dunno. putting a spinning garbage thing on the ground, to potentially cover up important ground effects to fuck with party/raid members seems pretty good for me. In closing, make ravager baseline 
candid path
Exactly. Prot has nice stuns, reflect is useful. There's some value there in M+.
chrome falcon
Ravager was much stronger when revenge had a 12 second CD
scenic mica
@supple path Prot feels so soft in mythic uldir
neon tangle
@candid path FWIW I think the DK representation in raids is partly because they dominate so much in m+, if you have one class with early access to way better gear they're gonna get taken to raids more
chrome falcon
If you feel soft in mythic uldir you are playing bad
cinder nova
Ravager was much stronger when it's total damage wasn't less that deep wounds
sand egret
if ravager had a shield flying around instead of a fucking 2-hander, it'd be totally fine
chrome falcon
Sorry, link some logs and we'll try to help out
neon tangle
as mythic progressed DKs seem to be evening out
chrome harbor
idk making a weapon float magically 20 yards away crosses that line of believability that a 30 yard leap in full plate armor pushes up against
hazy flame
Are people unironically defending prot viability in m+?
stone crag
no?
supple path
Specifically saying we're worse off in raids than m+, yes.
scenic mica
?
chrome falcon
We are better in raids than m+
scenic mica
prot sucks in m+
chrome falcon
100% we are better in raids than m+
We are a raging garbage fire in m+
We are solid in raids
supple path
Our utility weaknesses in M+ just don't really matter in raids to the same degree.
cinder nova
It might be worth a damn
supple path
While all of our problems in raids carry over to M+ too
candid path
@neon tangle have to disagree there, Blood Death Rate stats in raids are hilarious: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#metric=deaths&dataset=90&class=Tanks
sand egret
uh no it should be casting 👢 🍵 👏
chrome falcon
The problem with Ravager is that theres 0% chance we ever replace AM
old night
okay so I know i already asked but like, imr eady diff places. Is it confirmed IP is off gcd
chrome falcon
Ravager could give you a blowjob and silence+root every mob it hits
lime wing
These changes are final? Or we should expect some more in time?
old night
i mean what what's his face said it makes sense
chrome falcon
You'd still take AM in every situation
stark sage
make AM baseline
sand egret
@old night yeah
candid path
Prot Warriors are pretty much the worst raid tank by death rate by a huge margin aside from Fetid: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#metric=deaths&dataset=90&class=Tanks
stark sage
rework mastery into it
candid path
Prot Warrior: Great on Fetid.
chrome falcon
@candid path Please do not link death stats
old night
the idea of mastery: anger management that was on skyhold gave me a half chub
chrome falcon
They are the literal most worthless shit in the game
chrome harbor
AM just works so well on a meta level for warriors of all specs, it should be base
old night
i love that idea
chrome falcon
Death stats only indicate that bad players die a lot on the class
That does not make it a bad class
neon tangle
@candid path There's a lot of issues w/ death statistics, it varies a LOT per boss, etc. There are a pile of fights where warriors die less
cinder nova
That's because nobody plays prot
solid mist
make ravager summon a bunch of valkyries down to 👢 🍵 👏 for us
sand egret
AM thematically works well with Rage as a resource
chrome falcon
AM should be the baseline ability for every single warrior spec
Design every spec around it
supple path
Whenever a class isn't #1 you're going to see exaggerated parse effects because a certain % of better players will avoid that class.
neon tangle
Like, do we really think that DKs are better than BrM? Despite the fact that 75% of m-g'huun kills are BrM?
cinder nova
If we had similar representation you need we'd be death log topping
scenic mica
AM should be 2s, thatll help prot out
chrome harbor
arms #1 by a mile, absolutly the best..... on the death stats
sand egret
yeah nerf it, make it scale baseline via mastery and give us some damn freedom in that last row
stark sage
@cinder nova death logs are adjusted based on representation fwiw, but they arent a very good metric
supple path
Though prot is definitely more death-prone just because screwing up as prot gets you killed more.
chrome falcon
AM baseline, make ravager silence/root/stun everything that stands in it and then some other cool talent at Lvl 100
neon tangle
also real talk, it's not surprising at all that the overall death #'s are lower for the 3 classes w/ 100% active mitigation uptime
neon tangle
and roughly follows from easy -> hard to play
old night
^^
stark sage
yeah the classes with 100% AM uptime are easy to play
sand egret
if anything that stat shows how forgiving other specs are
lost mauve
It feels like they took a saw to the DK instead of a scalpel
chrome falcon
Exactly @sand egret
candid path
I mean, it boils down to: Blood has excellent CD's and self-healing, and a random Blood DK death is very rarely the reason your raid would wipe.
old night
can confirm. arms warr in guild had me explain prot to him and he gave up. said it was way too much to understand. I don't blame him. that skill ceiling is insane
chrome harbor
well yea the higher the difficulty goes the more you have to watch out for and the more you have to pay attention to your mitigation
chrome falcon
Frankly, Prot is the only tank that is actually well balanced in terms of how much you get punished for fucking up
That's why I play it
cinder nova
Also I don't think rage capping was ever an issue
candid path
Random Monk death - more common since they lack CD's or on-demand self-healing, really.
ember arrow
@old night memeing i hope?
old night
@ember arrow in regards to?
cinder nova
Bowlby does scumbag parses and he barely hits ip
ember arrow
Prot being so complex
chrome falcon
It's really, really helpful there
candid path
It's an issue any time you use Avatar and play offensively.
scenic mica
is prot that complex?
prisma crane
no
old night
@ember arrow yeah he said it was way too much to understand.
rich robin
OK I just got on the PTR, and IP is now off the GCD.
scenic mica
shield block, IP, shield slam
prisma crane
it's not complex at all, just unforgiving
scenic mica
make rage, use rage
candid path
Maybe the simplest tank.
chrome falcon
Prot in BFA has less complexity than most tank classes in most expansions and it's still probably the second most complex spec after BDK
old night
what krotos said
candid path
Maybe Bear.
onyx radish
Thunder Clap deals an additional 30 damage and extends the duration of your Demoralizing Shout on affected enemies by 2 sec.up to 6 sec.
ouch
candid path
It's bad.
sand egret
annd here we go ago
stone crag
sand egret
on that note, time to hit the cache
stark sage
the complexity comes into managing your resources, not just rage but your CDs as well
sand egret
CD management IS Prot
stark sage
and it may not be hard once you learn how to do that
but most people dont bother learning how to do that
most casuals*
sand egret
how you manage said cds is the learning curve
stark sage
so they die a lot
old night
i think a lot of people don't bother asking other players as well
sand egret
well its intimidating
old night
like I could not grasp the rotation to save my life at the beginning of BFA so I sat in here and bugged the fuck out of @stark sage @sand egret and @chilly brook until I figured it out
sand egret
cuz half the time its "OMG YOU SCRUM JUST SIM IT"
zinc mauve
Most players don't push high mythic keys
old night
and now it makes sense
also found out blade and I have a mutual love of dual shields so that was a plus
scenic mica
Do most players do mythic+?
old night
I do
sand egret
valid point, Film
chrome falcon
Depends what you mean by "do mythic+"
lime wing
any idea when 8.1 will go live?
scenic mica
It feels wrong seeing people with 375 ilvl and 400 raiderio score
sand egret
I exclusivvely do M+
old night
probs dec/jan
sand egret
i literally haven't touched Uldir
old night
if its anything like legion was
supple path
The best part about the prot warrior community is that sims suck for us.
stark sage
i would say a majority of the playerbase has done atleast a low level key
candid path
What sims?
severe zinc
If I had to guess after blizzcon sp around dec/jan as film said
sand egret
based on thier dev cycle, it's most likely early Jan
daring patrol
and mine will probably stay low @scenic mica because I tend to do mine on weekends
chrome falcon
Honestly I thought 8.1 was coming very soon
sand egret
unless they push real hard for the pre-holiday release
daring patrol
blizzard's API is the only problem with IO imo
chrome falcon
But they've only just started working on class changes
sand egret
remember their office closes during the holidays
chrome harbor
pre-holiday release seems like a bad idea
sand egret
it's a bad idea
old night
very bad
sand egret
but people will bitch
stone crag
december at the earliest
sand egret
with
chrome falcon
Blizz loves their bad ideas
chrome harbor
for them and us
candid path
Pre-holiday is possible, but we seem very early on in 8.1's development right now, and Blizzcon is <2 weeks.
candid cove
They’ll drop it on thanksgiving in the us and disappear for a week without a care.
chrome falcon
Yeah dude imagine complaining about a product that you're not satisfied with
chrome harbor
i coulda sworn they said they were tunning warriors before 8.1 though
scenic mica
@daring patrol Mythic +10 will 90% of the time score you
fair root
they could do a pre holiday for 8.1 with the raid being a few weeks after in the new year
remote tusk
Is our health pool more or less comparable to say, a Paladin or Monk, or do they still have lots more at the same itemlevel?
scenic mica
even on tuesdays
sand egret
they have been server side
chrome falcon
@chrome harbor Yeah dude they already did that lol
Prot warrior has the lowest health pool
sand egret
8.1 is a client patch
scenic mica
Its not a problem
old night
we're lower
candid path
@chrome harbor They got a +5% Armor/Stam buff. Tuning complete.
chrome harbor
youre gonna have to be more specific weve had like 3 of those
candid path
TUNING COMPLETE
chrome harbor
didnt we get 5% a few times already?
chrome falcon
No
supple pendant
heed my call or lifespeed
chrome falcon
We had it once
candid path
Not this expansion
chrome falcon
Lifespeed
chrome harbor
im losing it
candid path
Heed for damage, Lifespeed for cowardice.
old night
lmao
sand egret
he aint wrong
stark sage
@chrome falcon we have had that stat buffed twice 5% each time
old night
stand in fire dps higher amirite
chrome harbor
ahah
solid mist
"Hey Steve people still saying that prot war doen't feel great and has problems... should we like.. play one and check it out?" "Ugh, just move the sliders up another 5%"
repeat
neon glade
Y'all partying for prot buffs?
chrome falcon
@stark sage I'm pretty sure it's only once but ok, maybe I got confused by all the tooltip changes
stark sage
originally it was 45 and 35
old night
for real. I was mad that when I rolled spicy boi and stood in fire i took damage. like wtf man im literally magma man
chrome harbor
see im less crazy then the voices are telling me i am
chrome falcon
No because they aren't buffs overall they're a nerf 😃
stark sage
now its 55 and 45
chrome falcon
Sorry I should clarify it's a nerf in raids buff for m+
Well no, on PTR it's 55 and 45
candid path
on a level, not having a trait be worth >45 ilvl is a good thing
stiff gate
how are prot changes a nerf in raids? sblock cd reduction and ip off gcd and 5% more stuff doesnt compensate for loss of DC uptime?
candid path
Still sucks butts, though.
chrome falcon
I mean if you want to phrase it that way sure, I was responding to the guy who said "Haven't we had like 3 of those already"
@stiff gate Correct, those things do not compensate for loss of DC uptime
hot locust
hmmmm
supple path
I'm pretty sure if you math it out they will.
sudden tapir
The changes aren’t finalised correct?
hot locust
maybe for overall DR
supple path
And the shield block change is very good for avoiding death scenarios
Even if the raw numbers over the course of 10 minutes aren't reflective of that
candid path
"Extremely conservative Prot Warrior buffs! Just what the doctor thought was adequate!"
chrome falcon
IP off GCD is barely a buff, it's more of a QoL change, 5% changes to vanguard are barely worth the energy we're using to type about them, and the SB CDR is more of a skill floor change than a serious buff considering the extra haste we're getting in BoD
hot locust
Id say damage is smoother and easier to deal with now though.
prisma crane
this does zero for our M+ viability which i sa bummer, overall it feels like another bandaid fix
the IP thing will feel better but i think it wont change a LOT
supple path
Every single usage of IP now also performs at the very least devastate's action too.
That's not nothing.
chrome falcon
Maybe I'm overestimating my block uptime but I feel like I have very few issues maintaining 100% effective block uptime
chrome harbor
tbh this all seems like hotfix worthy changes
prisma crane
agreed @chrome harbor
chrome falcon
That's why I assume we're getting actual changes later as well
old night
yeah
candid path
IP off-GCD may not be hotfixable.
stark sage
@chrome falcon numerically these changes are minor no doubt, but they massively help the QoL and that is going to lead to fewer mistakes and deaths
stone crag
almost certain it's not
candid path
I would strongly advise against holding your breath on further changes.
hot locust
I feel like you are completely discounting at least 3 bosses where you are potentially getting melee'd almost the whole time of not all the time.
chrome falcon
@stark sage Doesn't really matter to people pushing hard content though
stiff gate
IP off gcd was #1 on my wishlist so im happy with that but would really like impending victory to get some buffs or mannoroth's bracers to become a talent/baked in somewhere at some level
chrome falcon
@hot locust Which ones are those? Mother, Fetid and?
prisma crane
i just wish we'd get real changes, this is tuning
hot locust
Zul
sudden tapir
Zul
opaque harness
can someone explain how the deafening crash change from 2 ---> 6 s is a nerf?
stiff gate
its capped at 6seconds
exotic tiger
its 6 seconds max
prisma crane
@opaque harness 2 sec still, 6 sec max
supple path
It'd make me super happy if yeah, victory rush got the same treatment as war machine or something in terms of how it procs.
old night
but i think mroe shits coming
daring patrol
you misunderstood that change @opaque harness
supple path
Though the "carefully snipe killshots from the dps" mechanic is fun.
chrome falcon
@opaque harness Uh... what? The duration extension is capped at 6s. Once you've extended the duration by 6 seconds, the trait stops working
sand egret
more shit is coming
stone crag
it wasn't previously capped
stiff gate
previously you could extend demo shout through your entire avatar up until the next demo shout, now you can only extend it 6 seconds
sand egret
they literally havent even hit talents yet
opaque harness
ahh i see, damn that DOES suck
sand egret
ya’ll need to slow your roll
hot locust
I dont expect we'll get much more changes tbh
chrome falcon
@sand egret We were saying that for the whole of alpha, beta and 8.0. Let's not assume anything.
sick sentinel
Lets hope Prot warrior remains unchanged
timber terrace
Shield.
hot locust
I wouldnt advise expecting more.
chrome falcon
^
sand egret
I would be shocked if we didnt get hits to certain talents
chrome falcon
Remember that we almost definitely do not have a prot warrior player on the class dev team and they almost definitely do not understand the core issues with the class
chrome falcon
You didn't they've been up for like an hour
severe zinc
I hope the talent tree gets some love too, but im quite happy with those changes
candid path
@hot locust Agreed. I would be surprised if there are any more significant changes to Warrior.
chrome falcon
@severe zinc Our talent tree is the only strong part of our class lol
Prot warrior has some of the best talents in the game
plain ice
the ones we choose, yes
plain ice
never surrender 4head
supple path
Prot honestly feels like the talents are just missing baseline abilities.
severe zinc
Yes but what about the others
stiff gate
the issue isnt the power of the talents
its that most of them are worthless and you only take the same ones all the time
broken kite
I mean prot without AM would be... Be interesting
severe zinc
The talents you never pick
chrome falcon
Here's the thing with talents
They would have to MASSIVELY buff the currently bad talents for us to pick them
sand egret
i wouldnt be surprised if IS gets the same treatment that DR is getting for bears
chrome falcon
Or they would have to nerf our currently BROKEN talents like ITF and AM
solid mist
lol yeah
chrome falcon
Which would make us even worse than we are now
solid mist
or nerf the fuck out of the current stuff
supple path
The main purpose of prot talents right now is so you know who to avoid.
chrome falcon
The only thing keeping us above water is our absurdly overpowered talents
chrome falcon
They can't nerf our talents without massive changes to the baseline spec
stiff gate
or they could buff ravager by 4000% so it did some damage and you could have a tradeoff between aoe dps and survivability
solid mist
@supple path hah ain't that the truth
astral crystal
"they can't" is a qualifier that doesn't apply to blizzard class devs fam
sand egret
they certainly can on our CC tier, for instance
supple path
god that fear talent is...what is the purpose of you
chrome falcon
The fear talent would actually have minor applications
stiff gate
you could buff best served cold to a point where it out-dpses unstoppable on long fights but still take uf for burst damage
chrome falcon
If Shout didn't have a target cap
sand egret
if they roll Menace in baseline and throw something new, I wouldnt be surprised is all
stiff gate
theres plenty they could do to give each talent a situation you'd take it in
chrome falcon
Can you fucking believe
austere oar
Let's hope it's only the first wave of changes
sand egret
they basically did that for bears
supple path
you can thank warriors in alterac valley in 2007 or whatever for that, @chrome falcon
chrome harbor
Intimidating shout probably has a cap because of classic Av days
sand egret
haha oh those were the days
chrome harbor
Cause that shit was funny
sand egret
you bet your ass it got@one
primal crypt
yes no maybe?
old night
please bring me back to vanilla (nothanks)
sand egret
FEAR BOMB THE GENERAL YALL
chrome harbor
You don’t miss out 30 min CDs?
chrome falcon
@primal crypt I thought we did, but apparently not. Not much help I'm afraid lol
daring patrol
¯_(ツ)_/¯ even if this is the extent of the changes I'm happy. my only issue currently is block uptime over extended periods. I also don't care about pushing really high keys either so there's that
primal crypt
oh wow
sand egret
general defense was the best
primal crypt
that's odd lol
chrome falcon
You should not be happy about these changes considering they are a nerf at worst, or neutral at best
Depending on the content you are doing
sand egret
FEEL THAT WAY!
chrome falcon
Yes that is correct Bladesong
limber wigeon
yeah, I'm not pleased, kind of feels like blizzard took the easy way out
chrome falcon
If people tell blizzard that these are good changes
Then blizzard will not make any more changes
And we will be fucked for another patch
sand egret
so they should make yours
solid mist
@hot locust you think this is all we are getting b/c 1.) you think it's enough 2.) you dont' think blizz understands or believes it's not as bad as people are saying?
hot locust
I think it's enough to be honest.
solid mist
👍
supple path
For raids, M+, or both?
chrome falcon
This is a nerf to our ability to raid
chrome falcon
The DC nerf is huge
old night
^^^^
chrome falcon
We were looking at 100% DS uptime in BoD
And would have already had enough uptime on SB and LS with the added haste
hot locust
I wasnt even running DC on ghuun prog
hot locust
Its really not that big a deal
jovial reef
i wonder when the prot fixes are coming
inb4 they just overbuff stats and fix nothing else
ocean acorn
8.1
jovial reef
8.1 is almost here and we have nothing
quiet relic
they just relased some patch notes
chrome falcon
@jovial reef i'm not sure if you're memeing but that's basically what they're doing
sand egret
8.1 is not almost here lol
inner trail
changes look good, not sure if it's enough of an uptime buff for sb tho
neon tangle
@jovial reef yo dawg the PTR changes are here
ocean acorn
arent those patchnotes for 8.1
chrome falcon
@inner trail SB uptime naturally goes up as we gain more haste
desert anvil
Can someone confirm that DC is actually nerfed and not just a tooltip update, previously i noticed that you couldn't extend it past 6 seconds but you could keep it at 6 seconds for the length of avatar?
inner trail
true
quiet relic
Shield from ATal 365 w/ socket or 380 riot shield?
supple path
The duration would not increase beyond 6s but you could refresh it to 6s.
is what he's saying I think?
sand egret
yes
chrome falcon
Ilvl> Everything
stone crag
on Live DC doesn't have a duration cap
on PTR DC has a duration cap
chrome falcon
Yeah but it sounds like this person is talking about live
This is why I'm confused
desert anvil
live yeah
primal crypt
hm?
stone crag
there's no changes to live
chrome falcon
On live there is no cap to how long you can get DS
primal crypt
^
chrome falcon
If you had enough haste you could get DS duration up to 10 years if you want
sand egret
what he’s saying there is a cap, but you can keep ADDING to that cap, indefinitely
chrome falcon
The only thing that annoys me about DC on live is that if you have a DS at like 11 seconds thanks to bloodlust
and DS comes back up
sand egret
the PTR makes it so you can only add up yo a max of 6 seconds
chrome falcon
Casting DS actually reduces the duration of the debuff
sand egret
but honestly Ive never looked at the timer’s tooltip actively to confirm this
solid mist
🤔 has someone confirmed on PTR that it does actually max out at 3 recharges (6 sec)or just that youc an't get it above 6sec, but can infinetly refresh?
chrome falcon
Honestly I think the worst part about our whole talent tree is Booming Voice, Vengeance and Deva are both cool talents that I would like to pick sometimes
Shuffling around Veng/Deva could be interesting
primal crypt
The nicest change is when Sense said we can block rocks
sand egret
fuck yeah
primal crypt
that was awesome
sand egret
fuck rocks
primal crypt
no more rocks
chrome falcon
I'm going to try really hard not to soapbox about the rocks
primal crypt
so the shield actually works
sand egret
yep
stone crag
yeah, looking like we can now blocked ranged hits
sand egret
no more holes!
stone crag
which are physical
sand egret
swiss cheese shields are GONE
old night
one step closer to dual shield blade
royal marten
end of an era
chrome falcon
But Shield Block tooltip still has "Blocks all melee attacks made against you"
royal marten
All we need now is one handed polearms
chrome falcon
Hopefully that's just a tooltip error
sand egret
who needs tooltips when I can point to the icon and be like “IT DOES THAT”
chrome falcon
One handed polearms would make me wet
Because melee classes definitely need more weapon types
chrome falcon
Maces axes swords daggers fist weapons and warglaives aren't enough
royal marten
removing throwing weapons was a mistake
royal marten
can never be a spear chucking troll in the game again :feelsbadman:
chrome falcon
tbf it was really stupid having Strength Guns on loot tables
royal marten
NPCs can do it! Why not us? Although NPCs can be high elves so that's that
chrome falcon
as literal stat sticks and nothing else
royal marten
excuse me those guns were great for pulling
solid mist
Flips to the back of the D&D players manual "uhhh... I guess I'll take exotic weapons training? fuck man I dunno I've never played this game before but scimitars sound cool... how the fuck do you pronounce this anyway? Sim... e tar?"
sand egret
nothing like getting that sweet sweet gun upgrade 👌
chrome falcon
exotic weapons let you use fuckin.... katanas and shit bro you gotta take that
royal marten
Let me tell you something about Masterwork Bastard Swords and katanas
neon tangle
I worked out a double-shield build in 3.5
neon tangle
have we talked about dual wielding shields recently?
royal marten
don't you know, talking about the lottery loses you the lottery
solid mist
We need the Witcher thing
royal marten
it's a rule
old night
sal gonna get mad at us again
sand egret
Honestly my belt on my warrior probably counts as a melee weapon at this point so I should be able to beat fuckers with that shit.
solid mist
dual shields BUT a steel one and an arcane one
you stance dance between them
for +physical res or +magic res
primal crypt
yolo @royal marten
primal crypt
yo9?
chrome falcon
I agree with that dude who was saying that Prot Warriors should fully commit to our Deathwing sub-theme
old night
bro i got 9 shields
neon tangle
@solid mist it's would be pretty funny caring about swing timers
sand egret
YolTMT
old night
get on my level
chrome falcon
Turn us into full on Deathwing worshippers
royal marten
DRAGON KNIGHT
primal crypt
We should get a hook shot
merry cave
No new utility spells, still a big fail for m+ :'(
chrome falcon
Yeah we should have like a utility belt kinda thing
royal marten
like garrosh and that filthy panda who backtalked him
old night
my cotank and I were bullshitting in raid the other day when I transmogged a santa suit
chrome falcon
But I guess they gave that to rogues
old night
and realized you can transcribe all prot spells into santa themed ones
sand egret
ya know they should just give us a Orge’s already and drop the two-player class already
solid mist
I didn't read through, did they touch BrM at all?
royal marten
They thought about touching them
cinder nova
@sand egret Two-headed ogres are magi.
sand egret
there ya go
zinc mauve
did someone say... dual weilding shields?
sand egret
Magi class boom
chrome falcon
looks like 0 brewmaster changes
sand egret
that’d be fucking cool from a tank perspective
merry cave
Wish we could get a shout, 2 spells same cd one that forced mobs to walk in unable to cast/range attack and one that knocked back like thundershock
Would be great
fair root
It would make us feel like a retarded turtle, and there is enough of those already around in bfa
solid mist
ouch
sand egret
like just a 2player tank. like the cho’gall effect
chrome falcon
We should have a talent that makes taunt silence mobs
Replace Menace with that
And then give us back Warlord's Challenge
Our very own shitty Mass Grip
primal crypt
or let us throw our shield
chrome falcon
There are literally 0 talent changes on PTR right?
chrome falcon
So I guess we can expect those coming too
sand egret
some
neon tangle
Our mass grip should be called "Gathering Storm"
sand egret
like Bears got half of gutteral roars baseline it looks like
chrome falcon
That probably is or was an elemental shaman thing at some point
solid mist
I am curious if they nerf/change/buff tanks in regards to the M+ stuff. that's pretty hard to ignore right? BDK is just king there
lime wing
How positive are you guys that blizzard will change something about our talents?
chrome falcon
I would not be surprised if they didn't touch our talents
They are the only thing keeping us viable right now
neon tangle
@solid mist There's a light nerf to bonestorm, so yeah
sand egret
they just need to rid of fucking random running fear
analog pewter
Maybe when you heroic leap, targets in the circld get pulled in.
chrome falcon
We would require MASSIVE baseline changes
solid mist
but that's not utility
chrome falcon
To justify talent changes
chrome falcon
@sand egret Right? Blizz added a bunch of stuff that they got rid of in Cata because it was terrible
solid bronze
Just read the changes, /sad panda if that's all there is
solid mist
@neon tangle but that doesn't address things like battle rez, ring of peace, mass grip, ranged aoe silence etc.
chrome falcon
I would be interested to hear Marok's justification for saying these buffs are a huge step in the right direction
solid owl
anyone else already figure we're getting ignore pain off GCD since they added the .5s CD in the patch notes?
chrome falcon
Because as far as I'm concerned they're barely anything
merry cave
I'm 0 positive that they'll change talents short of nerfing aoe damage
neon tangle
oh yeah no we're still dumb af, and have none of the actual useful things for m+
merry cave
They seem to think ravager etc are fine
solid bronze
The IP cooldown at least means it's coming out of the GCD, right?
untold salmon
that alone is a huge buff
primal crypt
@solid owl yeah
chrome falcon
It is not a huge buff
merry cave
IP off gcd is gonna be worse for poor players there just gonna rage starve themselves
Spamming it
chrome falcon
It is a huge buff to how much fun we are to play
primal crypt
yup
solid mist
bingo
primal crypt
they're going to burn so much rage
chrome falcon
But it does not make us much stronger
solid mist
bad players already using it instead of SB
primal crypt
and not be able to block
solid mist
gonna be even worse 😆
neon tangle
@merry cave poor players already waste rage on revenge so...
chrome falcon
SB costing rage is still fucking stupid
primal crypt
skill cap just rose a ton
chrome falcon
Especially costing THIRTY rage
primal crypt
with that change
vocal nimbus
@hot locust did you kill ghuun yet?
analog pewter
lol, like they werent spamming revenge instead
primal crypt
@chrome falcon you right
chrome falcon
@primal crypt Skill floor you mean, something that was already too high
limber wigeon
idk, I liked having defense on GCD, i don't like that all of our buttons are just going to be damage/resources
chrome falcon
DS is still on GCD
primal crypt
I suppose you're right
limber wigeon
but that's how every other tank is, so i guess its fair
neon tangle
I see relatively little change in the skill floor, getting rage starved on IP > getting rage starved from regenge maybe?
chrome falcon
But yes I was also ok with IP on the GCD
neon tangle
I think revenge costing rage is kinda dumb in the first place
chrome falcon
Revenge is dumb, period
It's our only way to turn rage into damage
And half the time it doesn't cost rage
AND it does bad damage
neon tangle
We shouldn't be able to turn rage in to damage
chrome falcon
It literally achieves NONE of its goals
primal crypt
lmfao
analog pewter
make vengeance baselinr 🤔
chrome falcon
What? That is the stupidest fucking thing I have ever read
primal crypt
shhh
chrome falcon
Turning rage into damage is a core part of prot warrior design
And has been since vanilla
solid mist
so was being a good tank
chrome falcon
With It-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named
solid mist
but things change
dusky summit
devastator baseline would be nice
chrome falcon
Things shouldn't change if you're changing good things into bad things
Garrosh said "Times change" at the start of WoD, that didn't make WoD a good expansion
Boom, gottem, flawless argument
supple path
The real tragedy is that my tome of town portal isn't working anymore on PTR.
brave vine
what if devestator was baseline, and revenge was free but single target unless you were above, say, 70 rage
and devestate itself was just gone
hot locust
@vocal nimbus I did last tuesday, yeah.
neon tangle
@chrome falcon I mean, I know that it's been part of our kit for a long time, I just don't think it's an interesting... or even fun part of it
chrome falcon
@neon tangle Dude you are so insanely wrong that it hurts. You want to turn prot warrior into "Generate rage->Turn rage into DR" and literally nothing else?
brave vine
you'd have a button to press when at low rage, youd still get ss procs, and it could dump if you were high rage
finite cairn
these changes seem to make us worse in the areas we are bad and stronger in the areas we were already good in doesn't it? blockable damage was fine, but now with the DC nerf unblockable shit is going to be hitting us harder more often, and ignore pain off the gcd, while making the class smoother, wont be too much of a difference
neon tangle
@chrome falcon We... basically already are?
vocal nimbus
@hot locust aight, maybe ill do a little something and ask you some shit
Depends on my free time
solid mist
I mean. could have a lot of other buttons, that aren't limited to rage, that give us utility and offensive capability
chrome falcon
@neon tangle Yeah and it fucking sucks LOL
solid mist
banners, shouts, jumps, etc.
chrome falcon
Having different places to spend your rage is good
solid mist
and reserve rage for DR. unless you are arms/fury in which case rage is for dmg. That's not a terrible idea tbh
supple path
Spending rage on utility would be cool.
brave vine
yeah i like that, too
neon tangle
@chrome falcon There's lot of interesting shit to do as a tank, being able to trade mitigation for more damage just isn't an interesting decision for me
hot locust
Aight, feel free to DM me if you need to @vocal nimbus
analog pewter
dunno why they dont just give warriors back spell plating and let spell reflect last the full duration
brave vine
i dont remember spell plating
supple path
If we're dreaming of mechanics, spending rage to reset cd on spell reflect or something would be lovely.
brave vine
ooo
chrome falcon
Dude there NEEDS to be more to the class than just "Generate rage->Spend rage on your only rage spender"
That is what Guardian Druid is right now
And it's fucking rancid
It's so boring
solid mist
@finite cairn I think it's intentional. It seems like they want tanks, in general, to be good at physical/armor/blockable stuff, and when magic comes in to the mix either a.) group coordination for interrupts b.) big heals become the answer
chrome falcon
Frankly I think it's lame that we don't have at least 3 ways to spend rage right now
But apparently that would make things too hard, so 2 is also ok.
neon tangle
@chrome falcon I think monk is a good example of where you can have interesting choices where both benefit you in some capacity (albeit it isn't punishing enough currently)
chrome falcon
WHAT?
lucid bough
queing GCDs as prot is not the best experience for me, until they change this im gonna still playing more my brewmaster than prot
supple path
Hah, logged into PTR to compare my stats, then promptly upgraded all my azerite items by 5 ilvl since it's a lower requirement on PTR...thus ruining any comparison. Whoops.
finite cairn
monks have a choice other than "literally do everything"?
chrome falcon
Sadbox are you trolling me
The BrM discord wrote a fucking open letter to blizzard
Saying that their class has no interesting choices
brave vine
well they have choices
old night
this discord getting spicy
neon tangle
@astral crystal read the last thing I said, the tuning right now makes the wrong choices not punishing
chrome falcon
They are the least interesting class in the entire game
brave vine
but they dont DO anything
neon tangle
That doesn't mean that with tuning they can't have interesting choices
fierce juniper
Pasting something I wrote elsewhere:
Right now you generally have ~18 seconds of Demo Shout uptime with an Avatar cast, and then about ~12 seconds with Demo on it's own, give or take a cast of TC depending on Haste/what you spend your GCDs on. Assuming Demo ends right as the fight ends, that means about ~67% uptime, which lines up with logs.
If instead of getting a 2 second extension per TC cast inside Avatar, you get a GCD's worth of extension on each TC cast, that's 1.2 seconds of increased Demo uptime per cast (25% haste).
18 seconds of Demo during Avatar means TC was cast 5 times while Demo shout was up, which is 10 seconds of extension. So instead of 10 seconds of extension, you're getting 1.2 * 5 = 6 seconds of extension.
Which means ~14 seconds of Demo Shout during Avatar, and still ~12 seconds on non-Avatar casts. Which is 58% uptime on Demo Shout, or a ~13.5% decrease to Demo Shout uptime.
Additionally, Shield Block going from a 18 -> 16 seconds on recharge means Shield Block uptime goes from ~65% to ~75%, which is a 15% increase. And average Block DR is much higher than the 20% you get from Demo.
So yeah, not a net nerf. Particularly accounting the Vanguard buffs. Also, the DC nerf won't even matter on some fights depending on swaps. Having the extra control on Shield Block uptime will be of much greater benefit since you can hold charges and such for swaps.
It's a step in the right direction because increased Shield Block uptime means the spec is less punishing, and a further buff to our passive survivability also makes the spec less punishing. Also the Demo Shout uptime nerf isn't quite as bad as people might think (again, entirely depends on swaps). Would still like to see a buff to IP and IPs cap, but oh well.
lucid bough
well why do you want every tank spec the same? @solid mist
austere oar
Bc BrM is not rewarding in any way regarding to their AM management
solid mist
I don't?
neon tangle
I think the interaction between those two abilities is interesting, far more interesting than SB vs. IP
chrome falcon
Ofc there is nothing interesting about SB vs IP choices
There is no "choice" there at least
You always SB and then if you have rage aftewards you IP
brave vine
also, with the crazy rage generation on aoe tanking won't IP off the gcd make us really good at that sort of thing?
chrome falcon
@brave vine Yeah it definitely helps
sick sentinel
Am I reading this right? Ignore Pain is getting off the GCD?
shut summit
yes
old night
yep!
neon tangle
@chrome falcon I guess my point is that I would rather us have more interesting choices for rage spend, and it would be cool of they were focused around me staying alive
daring patrol
Marok coming in with the reality check
old night
right?
solid mist
@fierce juniper obviously too early to tell, but do you think DC becomes a "oh nice to have" or is it still going to be worth some amount of ilvl, albeit less than 45 or whatever it's rated at now?
analog pewter
Seems like a net buff for raids and a nerf for mythic+
sick sentinel
Today is a good day.
fierce juniper
@solid mist Not 100% sure yet, but it's still definitely one of our better/best traits.
chrome falcon
@analog pewter You have it entirely reversed, this is basically neutral for raids and a solid buff for m+
brave vine
yeah, which is where i like to tank
fierce juniper
It's not neutral for raids at all. It's a buff.
brave vine
i'd rather disappoint 5 people than 25 lol
old night
@fierce juniper thanks for the explanation man. Easy to understand and cleared up a lot of the confusion for me
fierce juniper
np
analog pewter
wouldnt thr longer duration of dem shout be morr beneficial for mythic+ considering spell dmg and no tank swaps?
brave vine
right, but most adds in m+ are using AAs
chrome falcon
@fierce juniper The issue I have here is that our rotation still feels like absolute garbage. With IP off the GCD we have even more globals where we have to devastate. We were already getting increased uptime on our blocking that we naturally get from more haste every tier (i suppose we might lose the free haste from uldir, though I assume the same system will exist in BoD, possibly with even more stats per stack). I suppose the free extra stats do push it into a legitimate buff, but getting those never feels good
I'm still hoping for the kind of real buffs that shadow priest is seeing
stark sage
the rotation will feel better with IP off the GCD i will guarantee you, sure it will be a lot more devastates, but those can proc resets on slam, giving more rage and more reductions through AM
supple path
I'm confused by the 18s of uptime during avatar part of that write-up - feels way higher?
brave vine
and furthermore, you can use the same gcd to IP and generate rage
chrome falcon
Every time I press devastate I die inside
lusty grotto
the 👢 🍵 👏 still alive bootyclaps everywhere
not gonna lie i hate devastate after devastator too mattacate
severe zinc
Pressing ip on gcd is so much more engaging and fun
chrome falcon
Any change that increases the % of my globals that do 2k damage and nothing else is a lame fucking change
lusty grotto
after deva legion i mean
severe zinc
Than devastatinv
lusty grotto
but oh well lol
chrome falcon
Yeah I'm honestly ok with IP on GCD
I'm ok with having it off GCD too but there are so many more interesting things they could do with it
supple path
I was okay with it, but it took about 20 seconds of playing on PTR to realize no I wasn't, I was a battered spouse.
brave vine
rofl
chrome falcon
You definitely have to get used to it
velvet axle
Am I wrong in reading this as "GCD CHANGES SUCK" so they take it off GCD and people say "IP ON GCD WAS BETTER"
chrome falcon
And it's possible that when we actually raid with it off the GCD we'll realise how much better it feels
velvet axle
I may be wrong.
chrome falcon
IP on GCD led to more interesting decisions
neon tangle
I mainly am happy to have it off the GCD for avatar
chrome falcon
But it felt extremely clunky to play
supple path
Yeah, but now our decision is instead "I WANT ALL THE THINGS"
which is less interesting, but more powerful.
neon tangle
it felt very clunky during avatar
severe zinc
Ip on gcd is aids when tanking multiple targets
chrome falcon
So eh
stark sage
prot having a clunky rotation is the root of a lot of our issues
brave vine
i think people are saying ip on the gcd is better than pressing devestate now that the one-build-to-rule-them-all doesn't allow for devestator
chrome falcon
Exactly Keladan
supple path
Curious how our m+ dps will fare with extra gcds vs reduced DS
chrome falcon
And they haven't fixed that here
proven tundra
WERE OFF THE GCD BOYS
stark sage
IP off the GCD is the best thing they could have done for the rotation without a minor rework to the class
chrome falcon
@supple path I can't see our m+ dps getting nerfed by this change
brave vine
quite the opposite
sick sentinel
Hope it's the first change of a long series from the community feedback.
chrome falcon
Yeah but like... the class was good in EN and they reworked it. The class blows right now and they're not reworking it
brave vine
well, i guess we get a few gcds for damage but lose a bit of DS uptime
chrome falcon
This is why I feel like we actually had a prot warrior player on the dev team in Legion
Someone who could be fucked to work on the class
And now maybe he rerolled BDK or something lol
primal crypt
Lmao
daring patrol
this makes me moist
brave vine
well bonestorm is nerfed into the dirt
chrome falcon
Into the dirt might be going a bit far
primal crypt
Our shields work
severe zinc
😍
primal crypt
Its so beautiful to see that
neon tangle
@brave vine Is it that big of a nerf? 15% / second seems like a LOT still
primal crypt
Thank you @daring patrol
neon tangle
unless it's 15% overall?
crystal night
lets go!!@!!!
brave vine
i thought it was 15% over the cast
crystal night
IGNORE PAIN OFF GCD BOIIII
chrome falcon
@neon tangle When you're tanking like 10 +16 mobs, 15%/second is basically nothing
prisma crane
@fierce juniper but these changes affect our strongest area and effectively reduce our mitigation on non-blockable damage by the roughly 13.5% uptime of DS, now if SB can mitigate ranged attacks, then i'd buy it, but we literally have nothing but IP for these scenarios, whereas a take more dmg then heal type tank cares a lot less (relatively) what the source of the damage is
supple path
that would mean it caps vs 1.5 targets.
sick sentinel
15% per second is still a lot of healing
crystal night
HOLLLEEEEE SHITTTTTT
primal crypt
Bonestorm wasnt nerfed too badly
supple path
or something.
chrome harbor
380 mchimba's ritual bandages has gotta beat a 355 xalziax veiled eye with the strength and on use alone ye?
primal crypt
Its been balanced
crystal night
WE FUCKING DID IT BOIZ
chrome falcon
@prisma crane On PTR we can block ranged attacks. Again, I really don't think this change means anything considering how few mobs actually do damage in this way.
clear delta
eww on use trinks
supple path
If it works like I'm reading it and bonestorm just loses effectiveness past a 5 pull, that seems like a reasonable approach.
finite cairn
With the nerf to dc I’d like to see IP’s cap raised for unblockable shit like bleeds
prisma crane
IP off the GCD will FEEL a lot better, but in practice it's not a massive buff, just means we lose less AM use during high rage situations
chrome harbor
its always a nice safety net
primal crypt
Yeah bonestorm is still strong as af
clear delta
@chrome falcon there are so many mobs that do ranged damage dude
chrome harbor
1.5 min cd on a super IP
sand egret
still strong, just not like....half your hp per second....strong
clear delta
rock throw guys in td for example
chrome falcon
@clear delta I'm sure it feels that way
That's like 4 mobs in the entire instance
That are very easily LoSable
primal crypt
Needless to say, they buffed warriors
brave vine
well, i stand corrected
neon tangle
@prisma crane It will also be nice for m+, and prolly help out our mitigation a bit there
prisma crane
@chrome falcon in raids, i'd agree, in M+, i feel like this expac there's a lot, idk
supple path
You'll feel bad for badmouthing the change when 8.2 brings "Arch'e'rymon, the Troll City of Shooting Bows"
brave vine
pumped for the changes
sand egret
they did but warriors are supposed to get angry
dark lark
just saw the IP gcd change
sand egret
so this is par for the course
dark lark
praise be to kaplan
clear delta
either way, eing able to block them is a straight buff no matter what
stark sage
prot, when played well is a strong tank, if you felt soft in raids you were likely making mistakes, this change will help people who make mistakes
severe zinc
Don't some tank abilities not get blocked if you are out of range, think I saw max tweeting about it. (Abilities you would ordinarily block)
primal crypt
Now if they could bake our leggo bracers into the spec
prisma crane
still, i welcome "buffs" and the feel with IP, but i guess we'll have to see how it all settles
primal crypt
That would be nice
clear delta
IP off GCD will be so nice
chrome falcon
@fierce juniper Do you actually think IP off the GCD helps with our rotation feeling like absolute garbage? Being able to cast devastate more doesn't exactly fill me with joy
chrome harbor
O.O
sand egret
honestly ill probaaby fuck up a bunch with it off the GCD
sick sentinel
Not sure how much of an impact that has, but it's a cool thing to have. Blong ranged attacks i mean.
sand egret
gotta get used to that shit again
clear delta
would be dope if they buffed the amount a bit, too
sick sentinel
blocking*
chrome harbor
to be fair, it seems odd that arrows would phase through a shield
supple path
Being able to cast revenge more in multi-target scenarios is where it'll be really nice.
prisma crane
@chrome falcon it's more like, we can now cast IP without having to cockblock a SS or DS or anything else which is what i'm looking forward too
chrome falcon
We've been saying that since BFA alpha
severe zinc
Shield block icon is literally a shield blocking an arrow, no?
clear delta
itll be a buff to Callous Reprisal, too
sand egret
ooo nice knock-on
fierce juniper
@chrome falcon yes, it's not about Devastate casting, it's mainly in AoE situations where you're locked into a TC/whatever rotation that you can now spend rage.
clear delta
@severe zinc 3 arrows
supple path
The biggest change I'll like is that it allows you to instantly IP with your initial DS yeah.
sand egret
didn't think about CR
sand egret
👏
chrome falcon
I'm not denying that this is a big help in aoe situations where we are permanently rage capped
Though frankly I think the disparity between our ST and AoE rage generation is another HUGE issue with the spec
I think Marok touched on that in the megathread post
sand egret
yeah, that could easily be on the way
primal crypt
Theyre not done with us
prisma crane
it's not going to be as big of a "tankiness" change as some hope, it's a "feel" change, and agreed, the issue is more about the MASSIVE rage disparity
sand egret
that's gonna require a bit more testing
sick sentinel
It was in the feedback thread
chrome falcon
@primal crypt Stop telling yourself that
primal crypt
Why not
prisma crane
getting RFDT only from melees is piss poor
chrome harbor
what you do is become cynical as fuck, so when we get minor changes we feel like we won the superbowl
clear delta
yeah
sand egret
shhh each class only gets one changelist!
primal crypt
Changes are coming
chrome falcon
@sand egret You're acting like me being cynical isn't entirely justified lol
prisma crane
there's a difference though between being pragmatic and being hopeful
primal crypt
If im not having fun, i have all the other tank classes at my disposal
sand egret
it is but it also isn't
old night
@fierce juniper think more changes are coming? I'm hopefully talents will be coming but i also agree with others that this might be it knowing blizz
clear delta
yeah if you want to grind another necklace and CoA
prisma crane
@primal crypt but we're talking about prot, not playing whatever when something sucks
sand egret
if you're thinking nothing will change period, then why are you here/playing Prot
primal crypt
Touche
chrome harbor
i think most of us are here cause we love the class and not because of how fotm it is
fierce juniper
@old night Probably not for 8.1, but you never know.
sand egret
if it feels "like garbage" etc
lusty grotto
reflective plating and some utility might do wonders
clear delta
honestly i dont think it feels that badd
primal crypt
Either way, i feel like they wont leave us to the way side
chrome falcon
I would not expect any talent changes. I said this earlier but if we are going to get talents that are better than what we currently have they will have to nerf what we currently have, which they cannot do, but our talents are the only thing keeping us viable.
chrome harbor
yea what are we shamans?
primal crypt
Not with ion actually mentioning our issues on the last qna
chrome falcon
If we didn't have our free 15% haste cushion we would be fucked
The same is true of AM
dapper sky
Link to post?
clear delta
the punishment for fucking up is huge though
prisma crane
not intentionally, but the issue is that they're showing that they don't know how to fix us, so for now it's let's give them simple changes to tide them over for now
sand egret
you're actiing like we only got three talent tiers tho
crystal night
https://www.wowhead.com/news=288111/patch-8-1-ptr-build-28202-achievements-professions-and-class-changes @dapper sky
primal crypt
@prisma crane i agree with you on that one
dapper sky
Ty.
neon tangle
I'm pretty excited to see how this works out, I'll at least be happier with a lil' more durability / ability to spend rage when tanking multiple mobs in m+
primal crypt
Weve received a lot of bandages
crystal night
BRO THAT DEAFENING CRASH BUFF WHAT THE FUQQQQQQQQQQ
chrome harbor
Be nice if those bandages were hot fixed in
clear delta
DC change is a nerf
chrome falcon
@sand egret I've got to be honest dude I've kind of forgotten what's even on our talent rows considering I literally haven't used a tome this expansion
crystal night
did i read it wrong?
prisma crane
yes
sand egret
even if they don't touch AM/Bolster/BV I don't see it out of left field for them to touch say, the Menace tier
prisma crane
6 sec is the max you can extend a DS cast
chrome falcon
It's a colossal nerf to DC considering what we could have done with it in BoD with our increased haste
prisma crane
which also means a dmg nerf as well
clear delta
yeah
sand egret
considering a big complaint is our "utlity in M+"
I could totally see some love in that tier
stark sage
dont be surprised by DC getting gutted, clearly it was performing out of intended bounds
prisma crane
now, we'll gain a few Globals with the IP change, but still, overall with less BV uptime, i bet a slight dmg nerf
sand egret
even if it was some minor
chrome falcon
Our utility row is absolutely trash
severe zinc
Changing talents doesn't mean ruining the ones we have. AM can become baseline for example
prisma crane
@stark sage agreed, but i'd rather see other traits more viable than that crap solution
chrome harbor
Is blizzard aware of our utility issues in M+? Cause based on blood nerfs it doesn’t even seem like they know why they’re popular
crystal night
is the trait testable on the PTR?
chrome falcon
Storm Bolt is the worst stun in the game, having to talent into something that used to be baseline is insulting, and Menace is Ravager-tier
So yeah we could definitely see some changes to our utility line
sand egret
@chrome harbor are you also assuming their done with Blood though...
chrome falcon
🙃
stark sage
@prisma crane i would hope for both, DC cant exist as it were, bring our traits up bring DC back
brave vine
the new trait looks kinda interesting for m+
prisma crane
🙏
stark sage
let our gear be meaningful
brave vine
the intim shout one
chrome harbor
I mean I wouldn’t be surprised if they were
sand egret
@brave vine now imagine if menace was baseline....
crystal night
The writing is exactly the same on both old and new azerite traits
chrome falcon
haha that's never happening in this expansion @stark sage
sick sentinel
What's "Stat Negation Aura - Strength Tank" in the changes? Never heard of it
chrome harbor
My cotank is blood and he’s already freaking
chrome falcon
Having gear be meaningful in BFA would require a big overhaul
crystal night
looks like each T clap is giving us 6 seconds instead of 2
prisma crane
yea, cuz now, it's basically still, ilvl and that's it, there's zero excitement with slight number shifts
prisma crane
if nothing is meaningful, then everything is meaningful?
primal crypt
Lul
sand egret
if one thing is super overpowered, everything needs to be?
severe zinc
🤔
primal crypt
Pretty much
stark sage
if only one trait has any value, then 90% of the gear you receive is banked or trashed
primal crypt
Everything is good
prisma crane
except, it wasnt super overpowered