protection

[neat harbor]

@uneven mason you can see vehicle bars/buttons?

[uneven mason]

Yup

always have been

[neat harbor]

mine is fucked up somehow then

[earnest zinc]

No changes despite the fact we are in the dumpster. It's time to reroll

[uneven mason]

try the TUKUI boards

[neat harbor]

it was derived off someone elses profile so they may have custom code hiding stuff

[mortal pike]

Ok nice eranorz

[uneven mason]

Equal blow for blow with paladins numerically "Dumpster"

[mortal pike]

🙏

[uneven mason]

quite a pimping dumpster I find myself in

but yes, its still a dumpster

[earnest zinc]

The data doesn't lie

[neat harbor]

Pallies feel waaaaay better than prot warr right now imo

[uneven mason]

all the data tells us is that Prot is very punishing on unfocused/unskilled players.

[neat harbor]

nah bro not even

[uneven mason]

I mean my data tell me that I'm literally equal to the paladin I tank with

[neat harbor]

Our pally virtually solo tanked mythic taloc last night

absorbed like 5 million enlarged heart damage

[uneven mason]

0_o

[neat harbor]

or w/e its called

[uneven mason]

ok

[earnest zinc]

The problem is also you don't get any reward for nailing your difficult rotation

[mortal pike]

I mean

[neon tangle]

When I compare the tanks I run with I take the same or less damage

[mortal pike]

you dont need that on taloc

[uneven mason]

The problem is that there are a lot of people who don't/can't play at the levelrequire of prot

[mortal pike]

legit faceroll boss

[neon tangle]

My health isn't spikier, etc

[earnest zinc]

The problem is piss poor health

[neat harbor]

true but the point is you can just negate mechanics with pally utility

[neon tangle]

It really isn't

[neat harbor]

its a utility question

[mortal pike]

No its not

[uneven mason]

More what Eranorz says

than any numeric issues

[neat harbor]

like having immunity shields is fucking broken situationally

[neon tangle]

@earnest zinc We have problems, the problems have nothing to do with our skill ceiling tho

[uneven mason]

The reason that they're having a hard time with prot

is because mathamatically there isn't anything wrong with us

[neon tangle]

A warrior and a DK/Pally/Whatever played well in raids take about the same damage

[uneven mason]

we actually take less damage are easier to heal than BDK/VDH/Pal generally, it just requires laser level focus

perfect planning/execution + no fuckups on the other part of the raids part

what we lack is "emergency padding"

we don't have the fallback tools

[neat harbor]

"oh shit" buttons

[uneven mason]

since everything we have is proactive

[neat harbor]

were in dire need of o shit buttons lol

[mortal pike]

We have good cds

[uneven mason]

we don't have a reactive button to press if someone else fucks us

[mortal pike]

thats not the issue

[stark sage]

shield wall and last stand are supposed to be o shit buttons, but we need to use them rotationally

[mortal pike]

were just way less safe than monks overall

[neat harbor]

we have LS and thats it

[uneven mason]

and last stand and shield wall are again - both Proactive

[mortal pike]

still fine IF played well

[uneven mason]

they're HUGE proactive cooldowns

[earnest zinc]

I guess nerfing brew would do it

[stark sage]

even SW is more of a proactive 2nd resort from block

[uneven mason]

SW + DS + Shield Block - we're not dying to anything blockable for 8 seconds

[neat harbor]

theres so much stuff thats not blockable though.

thats the issue

[stark sage]

its okay for all of our mitigation to be 100% proactive, we just need to be a bit more survivable outside of our CDs, or make IP less punishing to misplay

[neon tangle]

@earnest zinc It's easier to compare us to pallies/DK/DH in raids, brew is an outlier

brews are like 75% of m g'huun kills

[uneven mason]

What Keladan said is exactly it

[neon tangle]

just like BDK are like 75% of high keys

[uneven mason]

outside of our CDs we suffer

so we have to be perfect with their use

to make sure one is always going when we're taking damage

that is, EFFECTIVELY possible

[neat harbor]

our core gameplay revolves around blockable damage, unmitigatible damage accounts for so much stuff

[uneven mason]

but if say, the other tank is a fucknut and doesn't taunt on Ghuun

[mortal pike]

When played well were like every other tank, shout at your healers 😃

[uneven mason]

or Zek

we don't have anything in the bucket left to use

[neat harbor]

Back when ignore pain was actually a real ability, unmitigatible damage was less of a concern

[mortal pike]

Zek is legit so easy as prot

you shouldnt be close to dying to combo

[uneven mason]

IP is equal more or less to its legion version

[stark sage]

IP is a real ability now, its just really awkward to use

[earnest zinc]

IP is TRASH now

[neat harbor]

"IP is equal to its legion version" no.

not even close

[stark sage]

per cast its EHP is similar to legions' version

[solid mist]

the lack of oh-shit buttons or ways ot like... tankt he boss for that extra 5 seconds b/c the other tank messed up the taunt rotation or is getting b-rezzed or wahtever is key

[neon tangle]

Zek is pretty funny as prot

[uneven mason]

It provides the same % of absorbtion when based on our health pool

[neat harbor]

90% IP off GCD was very strong, now its garbo

[uneven mason]

It is within 10% of its Legion EHP Benefit

[stark sage]

its just we had much more rage and it was off the gcd so we could keep it up much better

[neat harbor]

and it used to scale too AFAIK

[sweet kettle]

IP got nerfed to the ground for no reason

[neat harbor]

now it doesnt

[earnest zinc]

I think reverting IP to legion's version would be a good idea

[neon tangle]

@neat harbor Zek is effectively our version of pallies on Taloc

[uneven mason]

Eranorz that had more todo with 1. our rage generation 2. IP stacking 3x. 3. Dragon Scales

[neat harbor]

or it scales for dogshit

[stark sage]

legion IP was better as an ability, but it is still comparable to BFA's version

when talking about HP for rage

[neon tangle]

Our CDs line up too perfectly w/ the abilities and trivialize the fight

[earnest zinc]

If they want to sell boosts, buff IP up to EN levels

[sweet kettle]

IP now only stacks for like what 1.3 times compared to the Legion of 3 times

[stark sage]

if they brought back the legion version, and tuned it for the amount of rage we are playing with. prot would be in a great spot

but we wouldnt necessarily need less healing because of it

[mortal pike]

Take IP and demo off gcd and ill be happy

[stark sage]

we would just be tankier outside of CDs and easier to play

[mortal pike]

dont need that much more

[solid mist]

the 1.3 thing is so dumb from a UI design perspective as well. There is no indication to a default UI user if they are going to waste rage, etc.

by using IP

[neat harbor]

I dont see it as changing the amount of healing we need, I see it as something we need to absorb big hits @stark sage

IP that is

[uneven mason]

Except when you get down to it

We wouldn't gain any benefit at all

[sweet kettle]

bring old IP back and we gucci

[stark sage]

IP didnt really do that in legion, it was just a health smoother like it is now

[earnest zinc]

Revert IP to legion

[uneven mason]

so Eranorz

[stark sage]

if you tried to rely on IP to soak a big hit

[sweet kettle]

i dont mind demo shout being on the gcd

[stark sage]

you were in for a bad time

[uneven mason]

At what situation does IP not get fully used

where it would matter?

[neat harbor]

for non physical stuff it was great.

[uneven mason]

Its literally being 100% used up by 1 tick of Zul's DoT

[neat harbor]

for any spell damage thingie it was great for absorbing big hits

back when it would absorb like 50% of your health pool

[uneven mason]

Mythrax eats it all up

[neon tangle]

I wouldn't actually mind IP absorbing a lower %, if it's just there for health smoothing a lower% + higher cap would let it reduce a few more hits

[uneven mason]

But that was due to it stacking up to 3x

[neon tangle]

and like, smooth the damage more

[uneven mason]

so they'd have to remove it from GCD

[neat harbor]

right, stacking/scaling

bring that back as well

[uneven mason]

to make it viable to do that

we'd need about 40% more RPS

to utilize it

So we'd be right back to where we were

[solid mist]

yeah, taht's the problem. sure take it off GCD... still can't spam it

[earnest zinc]

A really good idea would be to revert us to 7.0

[solid mist]

and do we ant to spam it? is that fun? is that good class fantasy?

[neat harbor]

you think? idk I find myself using IP when Im rage capped anyways.

[mortal pike]

GCD is not class fantasy

[stark sage]

if it had a variable cast, and was off the GCD like in legion, it wouldnt feel so bad to play with

[uneven mason]

I don't think you're remembering 7.0 Prot very well

[mortal pike]

for anything

[neat harbor]

all you do is hold off on the revenge spam.

[neon tangle]

I am rather fond of not going back to IP spamming

[uneven mason]

^^^^^^

[earnest zinc]

7.0 was our peak in years

[neat harbor]

and its really easy to have plenty of rage for IP

[uneven mason]

that x 9000

[stark sage]

keeping the % that it asborbs lower will keep it from the spamfest in legion

[uneven mason]

I abhorred IP spam

But then it will provide less damage smoothing

[stark sage]

the reason we had to spam it is due to it taking 90% damage

[uneven mason]

so it'll REALLY TRUELY Finally be the dumpster fire dogturd everyone thinks itis

fiddling with IP is not a solution

at all to any problem prot faces

[solid mist]

🤔 what if we are like the witcher. we get 2 shields. one for magic damage and one for physical. and you have to swap between your steel and your arcane shield during the fight

[uneven mason]

its a quality of life change

that is it

[stark sage]

a quality of life change would go a long way for prot

[uneven mason]

You'll be pressing more devastates gratz -

[neat harbor]

it would be better than nothing bro

otherwise what design changes would you propose Im curious

[stark sage]

and if they just make IP stronger, then we wouldnt have to rely on block as much

[neat harbor]

cause were talking major shit

[uneven mason]

But it wouldn't do anyting for what makes us "Weak"

[mortal pike]

I mean there are def situations where I could TC/SS instead of spending a GCD on IP

[sweet kettle]

never understood why they bother changing IP

[uneven mason]

because Legion IP was overpowered

[neat harbor]

the thing that makes is weak in a word is lack of self-sustain.

[sweet kettle]

Legion IP at the start was overpowered

[uneven mason]

self sustain is a myth

[neon tangle]

@neat harbor I've got a pile of things, moving more damage mitigation from active mitigation to baseline would be a good start and free up a lot of options for prot

[stark sage]

give us a less RNG mastery, and make IP closer to the legion version

[neat harbor]

but prot warrior, even when in a good spot, NEVER had self sustain.

[stark sage]

we would be veyr good

[solid mist]

I mean... they could baseline move us up so passively we are way tankier, then IP and DS become more smoothing. right now DS is like "keep it up all the time!' but it could instead be a medium cooldown button that you save

[mortal pike]

?????????????????

Bracers?

[uneven mason]

@neat harbor Self sustain has nothing to do with tank survivability

[neat harbor]

its like blizzard dont want warr self sustain to be a thing, like it doesnt "fit" into the class fantasy

[earnest zinc]

Giving us the legion 7.0 one can't be more OP than stagger

[solid mist]

but agreed. they'd need to fundamentally remove/change/add to our abilities

[sweet kettle]

at the end of legion i wasnt seeing people saying omg prot warrior op or something

[neon tangle]

Killing critical block would help, it just further makes our AM overpowered, which effectively "caps" how much uptime it can have

[sweet kettle]

all i was watching was blood dks and i still only see those tanks

[earnest zinc]

Stagger lets you completely ignore big physical hits

[neat harbor]

"self sustain has nothing to do with tank survivability" in M+ it does

which is relevant to a lot of ppl

stagger is just a broken idea of a mechanic

[solid mist]

another issues. trying to balance for 3 games: pvp, M+, raids

[neat harbor]

like the entire concept if you will of stagger is complete and utter bullshit

[stark sage]

well we know blizz focuses on balancing raids as a priority

[sweet kettle]

the only real balance is m+ imo

[solid mist]

stagger is brilliant as a mechanic / class design thing.

[neat harbor]

@solid mist bro it totally isnt, its like they sat down and said "In an IDEAL world, how could we perfect damage smoothing via a class mechanic"

and they came up with stagger, which is the definition of damage smoothing and gave it to BrM

lets just convert all damage into a DoT

[sweet kettle]

the stagger idea is pretty good

[neat harbor]

WHICH you can erase half of, after the fact

reactively

via purify

[sweet kettle]

the bad thing about it is that a monk legit has to do nothing and it still cant die

[solid mist]

I mean... you are a drunken brawler, the design is great! you are tipsy, you shrug off damage, and face teh consequences later. You can drink more now to do that even more or like "hair of the dog" and just shed some

[neat harbor]

but how is that balanced though

[solid mist]

it's good "design" but in practice it makes for good blog posts about how it's boring

[uneven mason]

Stagger doesn't let you ignore big hits

[sweet kettle]

balance is affected by class fantasy aswell

[neat harbor]

Ironskin brew and purify let you ignore big hits, sure they do.

[uneven mason]

it lets you survive up to a point as long as you don't take damage again

"ignore" is a strong word to use

[earnest zinc]

They need to remove base stagger and make ISB give roughly 40-50% stagger and heavily buff base armor to compensate

[stark sage]

stagger doesnt make monks always op, they have had tiers where they were the bottom tank

[uneven mason]

The issue with tuning stagger

[mortal pike]

They only need to be abit more vulnerable to constant dmg

[uneven mason]

is that its either a curse and dogshit tier

or massively OP

they've never found a solid center to it

[thorn yarrow]

/cough Vari vs Brew

lol

[neat harbor]

kind of similar to how ppl said we were without 90% IP

90% IP gone and now here we are

[uneven mason]

But we're not shit

We're harder to play

[earnest zinc]

We were only massively OP at the start of legion

[mortal pike]

xddd

[neat harbor]

we're so shit dude lol

[uneven mason]

If you're shit at prot that is on you

[mortal pike]

Were not harder to play, just clunkier

[neat harbor]

we have no utility or sustain of the other tanks now, only druid is worse atm

[sweet kettle]

we arent harder to play LOL we are just insanely shit

[solid mist]

I mean, I'm shit, but that's a PEBCAK issue not a class issue

[earnest zinc]

We are probably only slightly better than brew was at the start of legion

[supple path]

Warriors suffer more for misplays is the biggest "difficulty" aspect.

[mortal pike]

Tanking in general this expansion is shit

so helpless

[neat harbor]

the ONLY good things about prot right now is when dealing with very melee oriented fights, and our damage with booming voice Demo shout avatar TC spam

[sweet kettle]

we went from spamming buttons and going in like Real warriors to playing slower than a fking arms warrior

its sad

[uneven mason]

This evening crew is really velcro shoes level IQ

[cold pollen]

That is a good line

[sweet kettle]

precast avatar like wtf is that ,what kind of braindead classdesing is that

[neat harbor]

Bro you're trying hard to justify prot right now

just admit its really bad atm

the damage is good, melee mitigation is good

[mortal pike]

Were the same tier as pala/druid/dh for raids

[neat harbor]

everything else bad

[neon tangle]

When I compare myself and the tanks I play w/ in raids, I do great

[mortal pike]

which is still kinda shit but ye

[stark sage]

depends on where you draw the line for a spec being bad. prot is perfectly viable to progress through mythic

[thorn yarrow]

^

THIS

[neat harbor]

theres absolutely no way prot pally is in the same tier for raiding as druids and DH btw

[uneven mason]

We're also able to push some solid keys...

[neat harbor]

literally none

[uneven mason]

no one can do BDK level tho

[sweet kettle]

yes but its not only about mythic raids

[mortal pike]

Eran

have you actually done mythic?

[neat harbor]

pally can do sooo much shit that DH and druids cant

[mortal pike]

guardian is legit bin

the paladin utility is not needed

[thorn yarrow]

I have no issues in raids or mythic+ an only die when I make mistakes, but you know I can at least blame myself an not my class

[neat harbor]

Ive done the first two bosses on mythic so far

[mortal pike]

Nice

[neat harbor]

on fetid prog now

which I dont look forward to D:

[mortal pike]

Think I died once on fetid prog 🤔

[neat harbor]

yeah my guild isnt elite by any means

but I like the crowd so Ill stick with them I think

[stark sage]

nothing wrong with that

[neat harbor]

found some people I enjoy playing with rather than going for teh loots

[austere oar]

Tbh I' d say you can play everything in M progress except DH, I find them way too weak, but some tanks like BDK and BrM are way ahead of the others, I'm currently 5/8M as BrM

[stark sage]

i've been playing with the same group of friends for ~11 years

[neon tangle]

Every time I think "prot is shit" I go look at the logs and see how I did vs. my co-tanks

[neat harbor]

DH just get popped randomly

[neon tangle]

I never come away thinking "yeah, it's my class"

[mortal pike]

Im just saying your view of tanks is wrong

[neat harbor]

when I heal one in m+ I always cringe if they dont know how to kite properly

[solid mist]

I'd argue Blizz's view of tanks is wrong

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[mortal pike]

same

[stark sage]

most DH players are idiots

[neat harbor]

haha yeah

[thorn yarrow]

same my guilds on skywall an we were barely anything but now we are strong and I love the people I played with

[neat harbor]

seems that way

[stark sage]

the class is good

[austere oar]

Blizz is "let's make tank rely on healers" and then BDK happens

[neat harbor]

I feel like they just "forget" or run out of CDs and virtually get globalled by a big hit sometimes

Vengeance tanks I mean

[stark sage]

similar to prot

[neat harbor]

sort of yeah but even worse

[stark sage]

but they have more utility than prot

[neat harbor]

but better kiting

[neon tangle]

@austere oar Honestly I think w/o bonestorm BDK would be in a lot less great of a place

[neat harbor]

and utilty yeah

[solid mist]

lol yeah. I lvoe the idea of "listen, it's holy trinity, healers need to heal tanks, tanks need to depend on healers" awesome! I'm in! it's a group based game. Oh what's this BDK all about? 😐

[neat harbor]

@neon tangle Honestly mass grip is just super OP for alot of M+ as well

good for sanguine, good for smashing ranged trash

[neon tangle]

yeahhhh

[thorn yarrow]

I will say tho I do love raiding with a BDK off tank

[neat harbor]

just good for everything

[mortal pike]

Imagine cucking an entire role because healers need 2 more targets to heal 😃

[thorn yarrow]

massgrip into shockwave feels so good

[austere oar]

Yeah I agree Bonestorm needs a severe nerf tbh

[stark sage]

if they removed grip from dk and gave it to guardian

you would see a much different meta

[neat harbor]

give prot warrior mass grip pl0x

then I would complain never

[austere oar]

BDK during trash cleaning in M uldir > 25k dps 35k hps

[neon tangle]

I mean, grip would at least be a -little- less useful if they didn't have a "I am impossible to kill for 10s" CD

[thorn yarrow]

nah gives us the Barbarian abiltiy from Diablo3 chains pull

[neat harbor]

healing a blood DK in M+ is a literal joke

I give them maybe one enveloping mist and a vivify if they dip below 50%

which happens nearly never

maybe on fort week a few times

[stark sage]

no doubt bdk is the big dick on campus for m+

its like they have the best strengths in every catagory

[neat harbor]

yeah its a big wtf moment

[austere oar]

They need a bonestorm nerf with the already Veteran 3rd War + will of necropolis nerfs

[neat harbor]

when you realize they ahve no weaknesses

[solid mist]

just add some trash mobs with mortal strike

[stark sage]

like lack of mobility isnt a weakness in m+ really

[solid mist]

problem solved 😉

[neon tangle]

HEY THEY ARE KINDA SLOWER

Not like, much slower

[thorn yarrow]

@solid mist no no no no no

[neat harbor]

right, it really isnt just cause you have to stop moving for trash anyway

[solid mist]

hahaha

[thorn yarrow]

u shut ur whore mouth

giving mobs MS

[neat harbor]

and other people can cast mobility shit on you anyways

if its really needed

[neon tangle]

also there's a sprint potion

[neat harbor]

stampede, pots, tigers lust etc yeah

honestly I feel like BrM compete very well with blood in certain scenarios

[austere oar]

play bdk & facetank :^)

[neat harbor]

namely in kiting massive packs of mobs

even then you need like a frost mage to do it well

[thorn yarrow]

you know I would be ok with maybe a second charge on Leap

[austere oar]

Tbh even IP off the gcd would be a great QoL improvement for warriors

[mortal pike]

It would make it fun to play

• demo off gcd

[neon tangle]

IP off the GCD would at least make spamming it during avatar a lil' less annoying

[neat harbor]

I just feel like prot warrs are the classic OG raid tank, I miss those days. It totally jives with the class fantasy guys!

and were all about class fantasies, as is blizzard

so why why why 😩

[austere oar]

You know that situation where you are 85 rage, SS up TC up Revenge Procced Up

[neat harbor]

then you have to choose between rage capping or using IP?

I hate that

[austere oar]

And throwing the uptime of your Avatar

[neat harbor]

like heres prot warrs current meta, either choose to max your damage, or choose mitigation with IP globals

having to make that choice feels so bad

[supple path]

Yeah, most annoying part of IP on gcd to me is that it's become part of my rotation rather than a 'survival tool'.

[urban walrus]

that feel when you made bad decisions that lead you to that?

[neat harbor]

I would be curious to know the exact number of rage over cap that gets wasted for me currently

[supple path]

"oh, I'll ignore pain in 4 more globals...3 more globals...2 more...1 more...okay!"

It's not a reactive ability to protect me, it's a baked-in part of my rotation to lower my damage taken over time.

[neat harbor]

right

tis not good bro

very clunky

[urban walrus]

you always have SB off gcd to prevent rage capping

[austere oar]

Not necessarily bad decisions, when you are taking Trashes you are quickly rage capped

[urban walrus]

if you pressed avatar you are prob tanking some mobs!

[neat harbor]

thats what I do @urban walrus

but its like, ok

[limber wigeon]

wild idea: make ignore pain apply before block, and adjust values accordingly

[neat harbor]

you are FORCEd to use a longish AM cooldown to "not rage cap"

thats doesnt feel particuarly good either

[urban walrus]

its not like rage generation is a suprise

[neat harbor]

cause maybe youd rather save it for a bit you know

[urban walrus]

its fairllllly consistant

if you get SS procs you dont need to use them straight away

[neat harbor]

all this to say just take IP off GCD

[urban walrus]

they are a bonus

[supple path]

I don't really fully understand the design goal of it being on the GCD tbh.

[neat harbor]

yeah it makes no sense

[austere oar]

But you are 1) wasting potential procs 2) wasting your burst phase with TC 50% CD

[limber wigeon]

it's to make people choose between damage and survival

[supple path]

Isn't that what rage is for?

[neat harbor]

right, the very thing I hate about it

[supple path]

not gcds?

[neat harbor]

is what its designed to do

[urban walrus]

The idea is to slow down all the specs isn;t it?

[neat harbor]

fuck me man

[limber wigeon]

which is why it feel "clunky," because it's a choice

[thorn yarrow]

can someone kill me

[amber siren]

sure

[limber wigeon]

and it disproportionally hurts warriors more than other tanks

[thorn yarrow]

my groups option this week is either 10+ WCM or +13 WCM

[austere oar]

Why aren't BRM GCD'ed on brews then ?

[thorn yarrow]

can I just forfeit life

[urban walrus]

just like we dont have gcd on SB

[limber wigeon]

idk, it might make the spec more interesting to play if they weren't

[amber siren]

IP is comparable of HotP or FR than brews

[urban walrus]

it doesnt feeeel great indeed

[neat harbor]

@urban walrus I dont see how its supposed to affect all specs. Take BrM for example, Ironskin brew is literally the most braindead AM ability you could have, it has 3 charges which you can regenerate with energy usage, stacks on itself, and is OFF the GCD

AS is purify.

[urban walrus]

I get your point - but if the idea is just to compare tank a to tank b, then what results is boring homogenisation

[neon tangle]

@neat harbor SB is off the GCD, purify is the weird one / outlier

every other tanks secondary-AM is on the GCD now

[neat harbor]

SB isnt quite comparable to ISB though because it will always be falling off, thats just how it feels to me

ISB feels just like an uber AM ability dog

[urban walrus]

like blizz could have been able to overtune warriors with this same feeling of clunky slowness

[neat harbor]

I cant remember a fight where I didnt have over 90% uptime on ISB

[neon tangle]

SotR is off the GCD, the pally heal is on the GCD?

[neat harbor]

imagine 90% uptime on shield block 👍

[urban walrus]

boring?

[limber wigeon]

I personally enjoy the playstyle, but I know I'm in the minority

[amber siren]

@neon tangle yes

[neon tangle]

@neat harbor Brew, Druid, and DK all have 100%-or-near-100% uptime on their AM afaik

pally, warrior, DH don't

[urban walrus]

some tanks are more proactive, its a shame the more proctive tanks also feel a bit clunky with gcds on range spenders

[neat harbor]

yeah bro, like wtf

[neon tangle]

just different tanks

[urban walrus]

does the spec feel clunky under heroism?

[neat harbor]

gaps in AM dont make sense to me.

[austere oar]

Proactive AM should be on the GCD while reactive AM shouldn't imo

[limber wigeon]

and we have more armor baseline thank DKs have with their AM active, tanks are all different

[austere oar]

Just had the pally heal in mind

[limber wigeon]

druids and brewmasters both have 100% uptime, but are on opposite sides of numerical tuning

[urban walrus]

if there are no gaps in AM then its just a maintenance buff - BORING

[neon tangle]

@neat harbor I think it would make more sense to bring down the AM uptimes for the 100% classes

like @urban walrus said, maintenance buffs are boring af

[urban walrus]

how is 100% uptime engaging in the slightest?

[neat harbor]

@neon tangle monk design is PERFECT in this regard: actively using resources rewards you with primary AND secondary AM uptimes, why not make it this way for all tanks? Why not reward perfect rotations/high APM with more resources so you can keep your AM up

[winter aspen]

Is the pvp vers trinket good ?

[neat harbor]

so for warriors for example, make rage spent reduce the Shield block cooldown.

[neon tangle]

@neat harbor Monk is not a great example of rewarding perfect gameplay

Right now it's the definition of "do whatever, you'll be fine"

[neat harbor]

its a perfect example of how to reward high APM though

its just that the spec is already so strong

[urban walrus]

'Perfect rotations' are not difficult these days with the trimmed classes - its more of utilising your rotation with the boss mechanics?

[topaz ember]

Blizzard " why take ip off the gcd when we can put monk brews on the gcd"

[neon tangle]

The difference between a horrible and amazing monk is 15%

the difference between a horrible and amazing warrior is... hard to say because the bad one is dead

[neat harbor]

right, thanks to stagger.

[urban walrus]

well, monks had stagger before and they have been dumpster at times

so thats not really a fair point

[covert comet]

any word on a prot warrior fix coming?

[neon tangle]

Still nothing

[neat harbor]

@urban walrus Well if you dont reward high APM/resource usage, Im not sure how else to put an actual skill cap on a tank class, rather than an artificial one

like we have right now

[urban walrus]

I mean prot warriors do not struggle in mythic raids

they are outclassed in m + sure

IP gcd doesnt fix that

[neon tangle]

@urban walrus We are arguably outclassed by brews

just like every other tank in raids right now lol

[urban walrus]

sure, but we dont struggle

[neat harbor]

isnt BrM one of the highest APM tanks?

or the highest

@neon tangle "The difference between a horrible and amazing monk is 15%"

I dont agree with that sentiment.

as a 370 BrM I feel like there is a huge skill ceiling

moreso in M+ than raids, of course

[urban walrus]

BrM just so happened to be really good at progress raiding with some good utility

[neat harbor]

but the APM you have to push to parse well as BrM is a lot higher than other tanks afaik

[mortal pike]

High apm=spam off gcd brews?

[neat harbor]

namely keeping blackout kick on cooldown isnt easy

[topaz ember]

Brm only has a high apm because they have so many spells off the gcd

[neon tangle]

@neat harbor https://www.peakofserenity.com/2018/10/09/the-fetid-log/

Read that, look at what happens if you play wall vs. poorly

Brews, for better or worse, are punished less for misplays

[midnight ferry]

There is no hard rotation in this game, everything is easy

[topaz ember]

Hard can mean objectively hard or hard compared to other rotations.

[midnight ferry]

just with warrior you get into situation of 3 abilities all line up and you have to choose one to use, super awkard

[topaz ember]

Warrior tanks are hard compared to other tank rotations is all

[neon tangle]

@midnight ferry I don't think that anyone is arguing that tanking is japanese-rythm-game levels of hard, we certainly take more thought / coordination than other tanks though

and I'm far from perfect, I have messed up mitigation and CDs and shit when dealing with other mechanics, or positioning, etc

[neat harbor]

skimmed that article sadbox, that is 100% true. ISB only BUFFS the amount you stagger, but even without it you can still stagger stuff. So if you just purify instead, you can survive pretty much just as well if you arent in danger of being one shot.

thats why I said earlier, stagger is a broken "idea" for a tank mechanic

because its conceptually too pure

and too good

but heres the thing

lets be very careful how we are viewing all this

I dont think monk is OP, or DK is OP

I thin the other tanks need a buff.

[soft kindle]

@midnight ferry if that were true, there'd be a lot more good players

[neat harbor]

tanking is not something that should be punished severely imo, why? Because the raid dies.

why should one player have to have the responsibility of having a minor fuck up be punished with wiping the entire raid?

[minor timber]

socket or 97 avoidance? same ilvl gear

[amber siren]

socket

[soft kindle]

socket is worth a lot

[neon tangle]

I mean, in the last Q&A they said that more or less

that "good" tanks are more defined by getting positioning right and stuff

[midnight ferry]

most player is bad because Blizzard default UI doesnt teach people how to do rotation properly

and player dont do the research

[soft kindle]

I disagree, I like that there's still a few specs left that, if played well, do great, but if played poorly, do shit. Prot's biggest issue is that it just doesn't reward good play quite enough

[neon tangle]

@midnight ferry also I'd argue that no UI tells you if you're playing warrior wrong

[neat harbor]

I mean my own TLDR in current meta would be maybe nerf monks and DKs a little bit, but moreso, buff everything else up to their level 👍

[neon tangle]

Because the issues show up 1minute+ later when you don't have a CD up and die

[neat harbor]

easier said than done I know

[soft kindle]

BrM doesn't even need a nerf, so much

as less standard mit

evident in the infamous fetid log

[neat harbor]

totally agree with that.

[soft kindle]

Playing poorly, even on an easy or simple spec, should punish

[neat harbor]

so the TLDR for that analysis should probably be like, "Nerf de facto stagger so that low ISB uptime is punished more appropriately"

in b4 90% of the shitty monks start getting popped 😄

[neon tangle]

Also comparing prot to that, I think that in the same way brew isn't punished -enough- for messing up

prot is punished too much

[neat harbor]

agree.

playing both that is 100% true

[neon tangle]

need to even the skill floor quite a bit

[neat harbor]

alright supper time boys enjoyed the convo.

[midnight ferry]

one way to make brm slightly more interesting to play is make blackout kick combo that delay stagger part of the required rotation and decrease stagger duration

[oblique garnet]

Prot doesnt reward good play?

[midnight ferry]

instead they have high tolerance as best talent, in legion it was even more retarded with the legendary ring

[supple path]

Honestly it feels like prot is punished for bad play more than it's rewarded for good, if that makes sense.

There's a lot of room to go to the floor - I've had healers in +8 keys who were shocked that prot warriors could actually tank stuff that's frankly trivial, because the ones they'd grouped with couldn't.

[topaz ember]

I pugged a +10 on the first week mythics were out on my warrior. I was only 350 ish but we completed they key after a while.

[supple path]

Yeah, not speaking about actual ability. Just the perception that comes because of just how bad prot warriors are when they're bad.

Probably a bunch of confirmation bias in there too because people are expecting prot wars to be bad, so a bad prot warrior is 'proof', but a bad BDK is just a bad player.

[dapper sky]

I mean what does a bad prot warrior do? Overlap SB and Not use LS properly? Forget to use demo with avatar to extend it?

[midnight ferry]

SB doesnt overlap...

[brittle timber]

SB always adds 6sec, even if you double tap it.

It's not normal pandemic rules.

Wasting a SB charge during LS could be considered overlapping

[midnight ferry]

I guess bad warrior use SB on a timer regardless if they are getting hit by melee mobs or not

or use SB b4 boss start to cast a spell

[brittle timber]

Biggest adjustment, for me, was actually using all my CDs.

Using them and not waiting for 'oh shit' moments

[fallow mural]

Does anyone have a good WA or TMW for what external cooldowns are cast on yourself? I use Exorsus to track the availability, but have nothing that tells me what is currently cast on my toon.

[lucid kelp]

there's one in this discord, under UI-WEAKARUAS-ADDONS, it's pinned, Externals On Me

[fallow mural]

Oh shit, thank you. I browse this discord often, but never checked the pins in that channel.

[lucid kelp]

no worries

[sick sentinel]

https://gyazo.com/f4d6d397fe88be3ac8fd638b593dbe1c mother 11 HPS

[fallow mural]

I'm trying the external on me WA from the UI-WA channel in this discord, but it's not appearing on my screen in combat, anyone know why?

My previous WA's are working, but I've imported the one listed from wago.io and it won't trigger. I assume this WA isn't outdated in any way?

[pure grotto]

im new to prot and tanking, do you want a piece of gear with reorigination array in uldir?

[amber siren]

yes

[pure grotto]

is laser matrix or archive better for prot, or it doenst matter?

[raven kernel]

Archive

[sick sentinel]

Was doing TW on my rogue that just got to 120 a prot war was running impending, the revenge talent on the 3rd row, and HR

@fallow mural check it, it will is on the far left or far right

Make the WAs left corner where you want the externals to appear

[fallow mural]

I've got a resto druid using ironbark on me every pull on fetid right now, but I do not see it anywhere. I didn't know if I had to manually adjust triggers somewhere, but nothing has worked yet

[sick sentinel]

I would send you mine but I am on the phone right now

[fallow mural]

Hmmm, I haven't toyed around with WA in detail in a while, but there is absolutely nothing checked under the Load tab, so I wondered if it wasn't set to load everything by default, which would be kinda stupid

[sick sentinel]

Unless you want it right now, PM me and I will get to it when I can

[fallow mural]

I can wait

[sick sentinel]

I mean I am an EU boy and it is 5am now, I will get to it when I wake up

That's why I told you to message me on discord, to remember

[raven kernel]

Nothing checked under load means it's always loaded

[dapper sky]

If it's under the loaded section of WA you're good.

[fallow mural]

It is, but it's not appearing anywhere.

Maybe it's off my screen somewhere?

[raven kernel]

Check the triggers

[dapper sky]

Press the eye and see if you can see it.

The green eye

[fallow mural]

The eye shows it at the bottom near my chat

[dapper sky]

Then check the triggers

[raven kernel]

If it's not using spellid then make sure it's the same language as your client

If they differ

It should be like

Type: buff

[fallow mural]

Any chance I need to select "Use Full Scan" under triggers? It says Enabled on sac, tricks, and MD, but disabled on the rest

[raven kernel]

Target: player

[fallow mural]

I don't know why the rest are set to disabled

just noticed this

[raven kernel]

Shouldn't be necessary

[astral crystal]

shadow priest changes announced

p-please prot changes...

[raven kernel]

https://wago.io/rkTNl0rVQ

@fallow mural try this one

That's what I use

Might not be suitable for your ui but make do for now

I'm at work cant help much

It should align to the right so just use the rightmost icon to position it where you want

[fallow mural]

I'll try that one after this next pull, found something funky and I want to make sure it doesn't change anything

[raven kernel]

Fuck shadow changes look good

Hope prot changes are at least as good

[limber wigeon]

yeah, those changes are really cool

[raven kernel]

I want an spriest alt now lmao

[inner trail]

"Vuctory rush healing increased by 3%" - prot warrior 8.1

[raven kernel]

Just give us 20% leech in avatar 👌

[zinc mauve]

new ability - battle snack - warrior can eat while in combat. food does not force the warrior to sit down. moving does not cancel eatting

[hollow ferry]

bring MOP second wind back 😦 and shattering throw !

[amber siren]

frens

[zinc mauve]

shadow priest got their changes comin in

no sign of prot warrior ;-;

[stone crag]

it's almost as if 8.1 is still a bit away...

[waxen cradle]

No one honestly has any idea when 8.1 is coming but speculation is running rampant so for now I am just hoping whatever changes happen they are more than last minute bandaid changes

As the absolute radio silence we have gotten from the devs just leaves some to wonder if they are taking into consideration all of the very well thought feedback they have received

[stone crag]

blizzard and communication don't exactly mix, not really a new occurrence

[sick sentinel]

But shadow changes let me hope for prot :-)

[zinc mauve]

its a sign of whats to come at least

[waxen cradle]

True that is a sign of possible changes for Prot yet to come

[topaz ember]

5% buff to ip and shield wall is now on the GCD. Thats what i expect

[waxen cradle]

Now lets not be silly... I do not think they would dare be so foolish as to troll buff us...

[zinc mauve]

heroic leap isnt on a gcd but demo shout and avatar are

or atleast its like a quarter-second gcd if it is

[sick sentinel]

Leap is not in the GCD

[zinc mauve]

ahhh its intercept thats on the quarter/half gcd then

intercept on a full gcd would be absolute aids

[stone crag]

leap was on the gcd

[covert comet]

[Polished Shieldbearer's Breastplate] 370 vs [Chestplate of Apocalyptic Machinations] 370???

[amber siren]

list the primary traits, not the items

[stone crag]

rather the azerite traits on them

chest

[covert comet]

[Chestplate of Apocalyptic Machinations] - traits - lazer matrix, bloodsport, 2 earthlink, globules, ablative shileding - 3 gemhide and bury the hatchet.

[Polished Shieldbearer's Breastplate] - 1 Reinforce plating, 2 lifespeed, blood spihon and globules, 3 resounding prot.

[zinc mauve]

do you already have reorigination array from another piece?

[covert comet]

do you know what procs it?

im assuming my helm does

[stone crag]

Laser matrix and Archive

[covert comet]

yea got it from my helm

has archive on it

[junior ivy]

yay

[sick sentinel]

whats the addon for those percentages?

on the secondary stats

[junior ivy]

ummm

i wish i knew

😦

[sick sentinel]

bruh

[junior ivy]

i have over 100 addons

[sick sentinel]

why

[junior ivy]

dunno 😦

[sick sentinel]

you might wanna get it sorted atleast

[junior ivy]

ive tried

once i got down to like 60

[stone crag]

many times

[zinc mauve]

surely most of those are dependencies... i hope

[narrow abyss]

first time tanking...did 10 ML...ouch

[junior ivy]

hey i just did 10 ML too

how did yours go

[narrow abyss]

ouch

[junior ivy]

i had a good t ime in mine, we wiped like 10 times on last boss

but it wasnt my fault

so i didnt care

i like when im not the one messing up

[narrow abyss]

exploded on pull before 3rd boss

100% sure i'm not doing something right, first time tanking and all

[zinc mauve]

first, if you haven't already

[merry cave]

Pull before 3rd boss of motherload sucks

It may be nothing to do with you

[narrow abyss]

Oh I’ve checked all the pins. Read the guides. Just need repetitions. Not worried about it

[zinc mauve]

that pull before the 3rd boss is miserable

spell reflect can help with the energy lash. If both of the masterminds cast it at the same time, you can actually reflect both

[narrow abyss]

Yeah I did that for those

Read blockable list for ML before I went in

[zinc mauve]

your best bet is to just save your mitigation up to that point and then blow it as you need it

its a shitty pull either way

[narrow abyss]

Is 355 boe shield alittle low for 10 fort?

[zinc mauve]

i missread your first message as 'I died every single pull' and i was like 'uuuu'

should be fine

[narrow abyss]

Can’t blame that haha figured

[zinc mauve]

if you didnt have any problems asides from that then you should be clear

motherlode mostly sucks just because of the masterminds and some other pulls like the weapons testers

[narrow abyss]

Wasn’t near as bad as what general community perception made it out to be

[zinc mauve]

prot warrior i just hard, thats about it

err, punishing

[narrow abyss]

Stuff like spamming revenge too much cause used to gcdcap fury and having no rage for stuff

Figure I’ll work that or over time

Work that out*=

[zinc mauve]

biggest thing to learn is just that the class is a proactive tank, not a reactive one

your cooldowns are worthless if you have already lost half your hp

(unless its last stand in some cases)

[distant meadow]

going from a bdk to prot warrior is a huge culture shock imo lol

[zinc mauve]

press button before damage and never die

[narrow abyss]

Fun play style though

[distant meadow]

yea im enjoing it quite a bit, cant wait to get good with it now lol

also, need better gears too

[narrow abyss]

Last time I tanked was in vanilla though so it’s a bit different 😂

No more 5 sunders then u can go

[distant meadow]

lawl

[frosty wedge]

lol

I just finished leveling my 5th tank >< lol

I have a problem

[distant meadow]

thats how i was in legion. all the tank classes were max

[frosty wedge]

yerp, only thing I haven't leveled is a DH, that's next

[merry cave]

Dh leveling is dumb

It's so fast

Leggo helm and sephuz was so stupid

[lucid kelp]

random curiosity. Do we know Fetid's melee damage before any DR's?

On mythic I should clarify

[zinc mauve]

like a truck

[raven kernel]

Optimus prime

[onyx vessel]

If only 8.1 was out this year

Feelsbadman

[thorn yarrow]

I wanna go on record fuck these affixes and %T$#^#^ Waycrest

[topaz badger]

tried a siege of boralus 11 yesterday

it was hell

either we take less dmg or we get more selfheals, but this just isn't fair

now we take same amount of dmg as other tanks, but dont have the heals

in raids it's not as noticable I guess, but in 5mans, I can hear the healers get cramps

[neon tangle]

Siege has too many fucking shooting mobs

And way more hallways than you expect

[onyx vessel]

Nah my healers are like if you were a dk you have grip

[zinc mauve]

you should be taking much less damage than other tanks

[sick matrix]

@sick sentinel that addon could be “convert ratings”

[ionic fern]

My healers when i say i'm bringing my prot warrior to the raid

[raven kernel]

Rerolling dps so he can do less than prot? 🤔

[oblique garnet]

Thats gotta hurt

[sick sentinel]

Man fuck temple

Almost 1 chested it on +10 twice, but the fucking ghunnies ruined it.

Now I have to wait a week to until fort comes back to do temple again

Also I found a trick with shadow of zul in KR for higher keys, run to the respawn point

He doesn't cast, but it might take a little longer so there's thay

[delicate bone]

Did AtalDazar +13 yesterday. 4% over time. Really easy affixes this week (last week was even easier)

[sick sentinel]

Well, it's AD

That place is one of the least punishing dungeons regardless of the affix

[delicate bone]

Sure, freehold 12 was harder 😛

[sick sentinel]

The worst add is only on one side, and u can kite them if u have the room

Freehold I feel is a challenge if u have goldfish for group members

[delicate bone]

You dont have the time to extra mobs for room on +13 😂

[sick sentinel]

U don't have to kite them but most likely u will for the adds near the dire troll

Since I'd love to see anyone handle 4 stacks of the dot and griv

Without kiting

[delicate bone]

We didn’t kite a single group. Use CD and the healer can top you

[oblique garnet]

with fortified + sanguine or with bolster + explosive?

[onyx vessel]

Tol is pretty aids with sang

Trash runs in fear into sang heals to 50% pulls another pack

Reeeee

[crisp pecan]

anyone still there or you guys switched to blood dk discord already?

[ionic fern]

Welp, guess you got your answer.

😂

[oblique garnet]

blood dk lul

[vocal nimbus]

There's a larger amount of prot enthusiasts from NA and most of them are sleeping right now 🤔

[crisp pecan]

i am in #teamProt for 8.1

[hybrid sundial]

all prots waiting for 8.1

[glass axle]

Changes coming?

[hybrid sundial]

hopefulyl

[zinc creek]

If anything, I'm playing my brm on our raid but still using my prot for m+ and alt runs

[next goblet]

i just want to say

waycrest manor with sanguine

cancer

[solemn kelp]

ezpz

[next goblet]

i mean i was trying to position things so i could put sanguine in good spots

didnt help my dps were a buncha mongos and didnt wait

[oblique garnet]

its all fun and games till laser matrix pops off from one of your dps and pulls everything to courtyard

[solemn kelp]

Obviously, group makeup is a factor, but basically, just keep moving.

[next goblet]

those hallways

so bad tho

[mellow bridge]

Prot warrior PogChamp

[ionic fern]

Watchout r1 r.io prot warrior, i'm coming

[vocal nimbus]

[quartz pond]

What a god

Whole 26 poinrs

[versed whale]

lol xD

a right beast you are 😄

[ionic fern]

26.5 mind you.

[vocal nimbus]

even 3 chested it

[ionic fern]

335 ilvl

ama

[zinc creek]

@thyme

[timid jay]

@thyme

[ionic fern]

🇫

[vocal nimbus]

@timid jay valkyr when?

[timid jay]

nice meme

[outer sluice]

Pro warrior is already viable for mythic+?

prot*

[jagged bay]

hi

[oblique garnet]

Yes its viable for m+

[sick sentinel]

Climbing the Everest in a wheelchair is also viable

[mental scarab]

Yea but we have the coolest wheelchair

[tropic star]

so still no hint on prot review in ptr notes?

or if there will be one

[torn sun]

Just wanted to ask the same question .. last I saw they removed the mastery on PTR?

Did they add anything back instead of it?

[tropic star]

thoguht they added it right back in the same as it was?

but this was weeks ago, so if they removed again i dunno

[torn sun]

I do not know if they added it back the same, hoped something would change .. not like last time that they removed ignore pain and all related talents and added everything back again

[merry cave]

It'll be like IP in beta

huge plans.. oh wait were out fo time and being forced to release

[narrow abyss]

They just released a large amount of Shadow priest changes

Maybe tanks next on bucket list

[tropic star]

got a link to the Shadow changes?

[narrow abyss]

MMO champ top post

It’s pretty meaty

[torn sun]

top post on icy-veins as well

[narrow abyss]

Okay second post now 😂

[tropic star]

seems like straight buffs

[torn sun]

yeah .. they are

[uneven mason]

Can't wait to get back to hitting my "WAIT FOR 3 SUNDERS" Macro

repeatedly

Oh and having 0 AE threat

[astral crystal]

w-warrior changes when...

[uneven mason]

Apperntly when they figure out exactly what is wrong with us

They're probably down to option E at the moment

[astral crystal]

wish a dev that actually played the class would redesign it

[torn sun]

The new trait looks good

But that's about it

[frosty wedge]

That's be nice, but all teh devs switched to BDK when they broke us, lol

[uneven mason]

That would require them to hire someone who plays Prot

[torn sun]

hire me

[uneven mason]

But your bad

[torn sun]

I volunteer as a tribute

So? I play it at least 😄

[uneven mason]

I mean, BDK is OP right now because Skullflower is the one designing it

tank design was done in a vacuum apparently

[torn sun]

Warrior does not trail too much, it's just we have to invest a lot more effort to stay alive

[uneven mason]

with no concept of balancing vs eachother

We don't trail at all

in Raids

for survivability

we're fine

our skill floor and utility are out of wack

[frosty wedge]

yerp

[uneven mason]

BDK is OP in VERY specific circumstances

But its the SAME fucking circumstances that they've bene OP in for the past 3 Expansions

So either they nerf those

[frosty wedge]

dude, I lived while tankign 4 mobs in a waycrest 10 on my 355 BDK last night while the healer was running back. That class is crazy broken, lol

[amber siren]

I mean we do trail, as the content gets harder and harder that disparity between the pack becomes larger and larger

Same story in legion

[uneven mason]

I Solo'd the last boss of a TD 10 lastnight from 40%, Warriors are not so weak as people think

but yeah

I was sweating bullets the whole time

[frosty wedge]

lol, yeah if you avoid mechanics that boss does very little real damage

[uneven mason]

BTW DArk Iron Racial removes Grevious

+++

[torn sun]

The thing is, the only time we can hold up to other tanks is when we all use exactly the same specific talents

[frosty wedge]

makes sense, it's ableed

[uneven mason]

There has historically, never been variance in tanking talents Ritchie

I dunno why people go back to the puddle what was once a dead horse and kick at it a little bit every now and then

Talents have always been an illusion of choice

[torn sun]

Well in legion you could use things like vengeance and heavy reprecussions right?

[uneven mason]

Not really

at some point they were the meta

but then they stopped being hte meta

what is the variation

[amber siren]

Vengeance was p dead by ToS and HR never caught up to AM either

[uneven mason]

is that we don't have tier sets to mix things up anymore

HR was ahead at first

but once our rage gen got boosted by talents and artifact traits

AM became better

higher haste also meant

we had much better SB uptime at base

so it was literally just things evolving

talents themselves had little todo with it

these current talnets just go the way of not providing any illusions

I mean, indom and punish

are situationally good on paper

so its a small illusion

you have some choice in the utility tiers

[torn sun]

I mean to be honest .. I will be glad if they improve it .. but I did hit AotC last friday with prot warr, and I progressed through all of uldir on it .. so I enjoy it, it's just feels clunky

[uneven mason]

I've found my "dance" and the spec no longer feels clunky at all to me

[torn sun]

I am having trouble out-threating the other tank at the pull, since I feel obligated to waste a gcd on mitigation very early

[uneven mason]

0_0

Should be the other way around

the other tank should be struggling to hold it off of you

we have some of the highest burst threat

[torn sun]

So, teach me pls .. I pop avatar before pull, charge in, thunder clap, shield bash, shield block, thunder clap?

[astral crystal]

you know what makes the spec feel super fluid? the 500+ haste from archive

who'd have thunk

~1.02s gcd is a lot smoother than 1.2s gcd

[uneven mason]

Avatar - Charge - TC(SB now) - DS - TC - SS - TC - etc...

[digital arrow]

is it just me or is that new azerite trait that improves ignore pain really really good and needed right now

[uneven mason]

it improves avatar

not IP

[digital arrow]

oh uhh

[astral crystal]

it's not really good, just a free IP cast

imo anyway

[digital arrow]

sorry i thought it was new, i was referring to bloodsport

[astral crystal]

others might differ

[torn sun]

But by the SS I am half dead ..

[digital arrow]

i might've been thinking of the wrong one

[torn sun]

Ok maybe it's just that I dont trust my healers enough ..

[uneven mason]

Oh Bloodsport is handy

[digital arrow]

well shit that also sounds really good. what's that avatar trait called?

[uneven mason]

Your healers need to not be bad?

[digital arrow]

lol

[amber siren]

the new avatar one gives you mastery and instant IP

[frosty wedge]

bloodsport is good for magic heavy fights

[uneven mason]

Yeah the avatar one does improve IP round about through buffingm astery

I guess

[frosty wedge]

otherwise it falls behind IF and BFI

[uneven mason]

I ❤ Bloodsport on Zul

and Vectis

[digital arrow]

hell yeah

im tired of magic damage being the bane of our existence

[uneven mason]

Its not really

its DoTs

tank buster magic we deal with like a pro

[digital arrow]

yeah i meant dots

[torn sun]

Should I just hold onto my 340 shoulders because of the TC trait?

[digital arrow]

magic burst, no problem with spell reflect

[uneven mason]

(Hint, Zul's DOT is a bleed physical, not nature)

@torn sun Deafening Crash is priceless

So you'll always hang on to 1 DC peice

[earnest zinc]

It doesn't matter because it ignores armor

[uneven mason]

regardless of its ilvl

[torn sun]

yeah I thought so .. waiting for some 370 with it ..

[dusk locust]

yeah i'm still wearing a 340 azerite piece and i'm at 375 ilvl

[scenic dune]

vectis and zul phase 2 are the only fights I pay attention on

[uneven mason]

It does matter Garun because if it was magic, SPell reflect would be another mitigation tool we could use for it

But it isn't so, we have demo shout, shield wall, and IP

to mitigate it

[scenic dune]

and that's just because of magic damage

[uneven mason]

Zul has no real magic damage (For the tank)

All Zul's damage to the tank is Physical

[torn sun]

Can I remove zul's bleed with ID racial? 😄

[uneven mason]

No

Sadly

I tried

[earnest zinc]

Oh crap, I thought I was in the brew forum

[uneven mason]

Dwarf racial reduces it by 10% tho

[earnest zinc]

Though that DoT sucks for everyone

[uneven mason]

it does

[amber siren]

zul's dot is not a bleed in the technical sense, it's just a physical dot

works like a bleed

[uneven mason]

well bleeds (are physical DoTs)

otherwise they'd just be poison or disease

[scenic dune]

so it is, for some reason I thought his dot was magic LUL

[digital arrow]

same

[uneven mason]

yeah, a lot of folks did

[earnest zinc]

Stagger treats it like magic I think

[uneven mason]

it'd be EZ breezy for warriors if it was magic

[torn sun]

what can I do to help my healers keep me alive at the tank swap point at zul? Since the BoP is used on our dk

[scenic dune]

still though, I find that zul phase two turns into a shitshow

[digital arrow]

spectral berserker bleed is also physical isnt it?

[uneven mason]

Stagger treats it like physical

because monks are Tanks on Autopilot

[digital arrow]

good question ritchie, i'd like to know that myself

[earnest zinc]

It doesn't for me

[uneven mason]

K

[digital arrow]

idk if healers are busy but i wait till the very last second to run out, trying to give a chance for me to be topped off before i run

and i never am topped off

idk if i should be chugging pots or not but i usually do lol

[earnest zinc]

It would be easy on brew if it did

[dusk locust]

the priests are distracted with deathwish and the dispel sometimes in p2

[torn sun]

Are you staying with zul to the last second to generate rage and IP? And then just jump out at the last second?

[earnest zinc]

That fight is much easier as horde with Blood Elves

[dusk locust]

yeah stay with zul as long as you can

when i was first doing that fight i'd leave way too early and either outrange healers or just sit there with no mitigation

[torn sun]

yeah that's what I was doing

[scenic dune]

could also be that my aid hasn't killed the last crusher yet and we're juggling that shit, letting me get to something like 4-5 stacks zzz

[sick sentinel]

I personally try to generate as much rage as possible by charing, demo shout and using the strength pot to maximize IP.

[dusk locust]

yeah that crusher is a pain. the raid should hard switch to it right

[sick sentinel]

And leap away at the last second possible

[earnest zinc]

You need to have your co tank taunt on 3 stacks always

[scenic dune]

yeah never goes down quick enough in my guild

[uneven mason]

@dusk locust My raid was having issues with healers doing the dispells (thus not healing both tanks)

Know what we determined

IF the tank dies

we wipe

[torn sun]

I mean it worked cause - first tank (our dk gets bop), second tank is me, I die, get CR'd, third dk dies, fourth Zul dies 😄

[scenic dune]

yeah 2-3 stacks is good

[uneven mason]

If Random DPS_03 dies

[scenic dune]

anything more and you're in for a ride

[uneven mason]

who fucking cares

[digital arrow]

ritchie im staying next to zul as long as i can to be within range of healers in case they get deathwished

[uneven mason]

So phase 2 death wishes

[earnest zinc]

2 if possible

[uneven mason]

BUHBYE

[dusk locust]

i didn't realize how hectic p2 can be for healers until i did it on my priest alt

[uneven mason]

You can WOTF/EMFH out of it

but like

in general

you will not wipe if you let the 4 DPS who get feared walk off the edge

if you stop healing either tnak long enough to do dispells

you're going to wipe

[torn sun]

true

[dusk locust]

on mythic do people generally just ignore deathwish

[uneven mason]

Right

[dusk locust]

or dispel it

[uneven mason]

do that in HC and you're going to win

[sick sentinel]

I've seen people doing it with 3 tanks on mythic cause of the tank damage, not sure if it's still a thing now.

[uneven mason]

The only people who get dispelled in HC are healers

That is a thing

means you can do 2 stacks of the bleed

which is negligible

[dusk locust]

i guess if you're making the p1 dps check before second set of bloodhexers you may as well

[uneven mason]

CC the hexers

Oh on mythic

nm

[dusk locust]

i thought both heroic and mythic your goal is to push p2 before the second pair of hexers

[uneven mason]

"3rd" set

if you hit the 3rd set its a wipe

because you CC the 2nd

[dusk locust]

so you have 4 cc'd hexers?

[earnest zinc]

My guild dispels but prioritizes healing tanks in p2

[scenic dune]

that's the general strat, yeag

[uneven mason]

Once you get the kill down

you can do whatever in P2

But on progression

at low gear

you're not going to down him if your healers are doing EVERYTHING

[dusk locust]

you kill the first, cc the pair that spawns, and never see the next pair right

[scenic dune]

P2 is big numbers and not much else

right

[uneven mason]

When we got our first kill we basically said if you're not top 3 DPS, or a healer, you're going to die

[digital arrow]

damn cold

😂

[uneven mason]

Took 4 stacks on my first Zul kill AMA

[sick sentinel]

That's motivation

[scenic dune]

for more consistent pulls, it's needed

[uneven mason]

I haven't died on a HC zul kill yet I don't think

plenty of wipes as folks get their heads out of their asses each week tho

at least 2

[oblique garnet]

We thought it was common to take 4 stacks

[uneven mason]

yeah me too

until I was talking to the other raid team

and the BDK was like 😨 U WAT?