avatar is a damage boost, rage gen boost, as well as 20 rage to use towards your AM.
#protection
sick sentinel
steel mauve
And the cd on tclap is lowered eith avatar
chilly brook
Because you both get more damage out of avatar and you also get a ton of rage from thunderclap
neon tangle
WHich makes deafening crash happen a LOT more
steel mauve
Always demo with avatar
uneven mason
you use avatar - demo shout - TC
every other GCD is TC during avatar
it extends DS
by an ungodly amount
You delay avatar to use with demo
but never delay demo
(unless your not tanking)
neon tangle
It also lines up the CDs ~perfectly so that you can get an avatar every-other demo shout
steel mauve
Basically with dc demo should easily be above 60% uptime and close to 70% on like fetid
uneven mason
danks
gray parrot
ok
had to reread all of that
lots of angles lol but thank you guys
for explaining
steel mauve
Our toolkit revolves around dc trait, unstoppable force/bolster/am talents
junior ivy
is there a way to like set my loot spec to all speca t once
why do i gotta pic, one
pick
sick sentinel
lol
uneven mason
Because they want you to fuckup and get a 2h weapon from your loot caches
OVER AND OVER
FFFFFFFFF
solid mist
"The team did internal tests with full raid groups queuing for Warfronts. The problem is that with a full raid group you would steamroll the map objectives and get far ahead of the base building and other pacing mechanism. If you get too far ahead of the pacing, it isn't as fun."
sharp dew
Did they say anything about prot in Q&A yet?
junior ivy
i need an addon that tells me which loot spec to pick for each boss
chilly brook
@gray parrot yes and it also puts TC damage through the roof thanks to the Unstoppable Force talent
gray parrot
so ava pre pull
chilly brook
We’re talking 20k crits on TC
gray parrot
make that first DS last long as fuk
neon tangle
also just as a bonus demo shout gives you more damage too
lament quail
Aye! Topping dmg meters on trash pulls feels good!
gray parrot
ok
chilly brook
My voice actually feels decent today so I’ll be able to record some after raid tonight so I’ll be probably dropping a video guide soon @gray parrot
tulip pond
So what kind of buff are we expecting, another 1,5 % extra armor?
neon tangle
@tulip pond They said that BrM and DK are overtuned right now, so I'm guessing some nerfs there
and some rotational changes for us + more number tuning
chilly brook
Well if you’re looking for some general tanking tips I did do a video before BFA dropped
tulip pond
Yea they also said there will be number tuning & QoL improvement for prot
chilly brook
Not really prot specific tho
stone imp
Also that Prot not only has survivability, but also rotational issues. It may be fairly significant
Not Vanguard with 1.2% buff
chilly brook
I mean I like our rotation
sick sentinel
DK hp and armor scaling up too nice, i wanna see vanguard buff some more
chilly brook
👏🏻👏🏻
sick sentinel
oh hey anothe tony :x
chilly brook
Lol I ‘Member in beta when they were like “nah prot doesn’t get a lot of HP because they have the highest EHP”
tulip pond
Hi
sick sentinel
same. I just want some more vanguard tweaks.
heavy armor should be a niche for us.
jagged bay
hi
sick sentinel
or how about something that extends shield block duration by 1-2 seconds
uneven mason
blockable damage and block uptime are not the major issues facing prot
at all
by any amoount of logic
urban walrus
well, mythic fetid was kinda rough
sick sentinel
nah. shield block is fine imo. especially once your haste is so high.
buffing it would just make it too OP at higher ilvl.
urban walrus
esp taking thrash
chilly brook
TBH I think IP having more volume would fix a majority of the “problems”
sick sentinel
yeah.
tulip pond
Was gonna say that, either sitting full rage or casting non free Revenges just because Ip still had too much left in the bank feels bad
old night
if I have azerite gear that is an ilvl upgrade but none of them have deafening crash should I prioritize deafening crash for the demo shout extension?
chilly brook
@urban walrus recent logs show average thrash at like 149k
Should be easily doable with a well over 200k hp pool that we have now
sick sentinel
maybe a bigger base to the spell of IP.
urban walrus
i mean after 50% , having sb up for each
sick sentinel
but I don't think its scaling should be buffed.
mild echo
@old night yup
chilly brook
I think t21 4 set being worked in somewhere would be a very nice and welcome addition
tulip pond
Having Heroic strike with Ultimatum procs back would be nice too but guess it would be too much to ask for considering Blizzard's current stance on GCD
uneven mason
bring back rage from damage taken for non blockable damage
so we can IP while bleeding/being nuked
prot fixed
400IQ
mystic trellis
Are ataldazar pulls any different on teeming ?
mystic trellis
I usually run right to rezan and back up to him
chilly brook
Nah none of my stuff is on pins
uneven mason
@chilly brook 100% agree the IP buff on blocking would scale us very well in M+
gray parrot
do i need to go get my pitch fork and torches?
old night
so ive been working on my rotation. I was told rage dumping with revenge on ST is okay as its more dps and can proc SS. Is that right? since we're on the topic of rotations
uneven mason
It would make IP extremely strong on large pulls
gray parrot
this sounds like a travesty
uneven mason
we'd be the tank that could actually TANK in M+
ember arrow
chilly brook
Like I said the only thing I have up rn is just simply a generic “hey this is the world of tanking this is how you should look at it”
Prot one won’t be up until probably tomorrow
And then I could maybe see about getting it in pins
uneven mason
We'll see if they deliver Levko
ember arrow
what will most likely happen
dk/brm will get overnerfed. warr and bears wont get buffed enough
uneven mason
But that hits the nail
ember arrow
in best case
uneven mason
We're in the "rotational flow" arena for most folks
ember arrow
one of the 2 scenarios
uneven mason
best case
is BrM and BDK are eating dirt
and warrior is still hard to play
Best case
chilly brook
Rotational fluidity has nothing to do with it imo
ember arrow
ah the skyhold mentality
sick sentinel
sounds fine to me.
chilly brook
But hey
uneven mason
Is they bring the average level for warriors up
uneven mason
so the avg isn't shit
chilly brook
There will always be a winner
TBH I don’t care who it is
As long as I can play what I want
uneven mason
but reward those of us who have perfected playing this soccer brick of a spec
sick sentinel
ember arrow
noones forcing you
uneven mason
@ember arrow wouldn't have it any other way
I mean
technically I am being forced
I got sat thanks to Sco vid
Thanks Sco
tulip pond
ty sco
uneven mason
To quote my raidleader "BrM is amazing we need one of those, and (paladin tank) doesn't have offspec, can you go arms?"
I said no
ember arrow
againj as i said multiple times
cant we just have fun
and be good
like in LEGION
the fucking expansion
uneven mason
apperntly not
ember arrow
3 moths ago
ember arrow
why must it be either or
uneven mason
even after I was like "I take less damage"
"But BRM are amazing SO SEZ METHOD SO IT MUST BE"
So I'm stuck keeping up with the joneses
by spamming M+
while they raid
old night
non-proc revenge on single target if IP is capped is fine right if you are rage dumping?
uneven mason
So when the grand sweeping change of "Stagger can fucking kill you" comes around
I'll be ready
Yes Film
gray parrot
TY all for the help. Gotta do work now. we take a full crack at Ghuun by himself tonight on Heroic. I will follow up with more logs and hopefully I dont suck as muc h:D
uneven mason
If you're just rage dumping
digital arrow
@uneven mason i was in the same boat as u man, except guild didnt really do m+ with me either
uneven mason
use revenge
digital arrow
so i changed guilds
uneven mason
@digital arrow hard to find a tank spot as a prot war
on a low pop alliance server
considering swapping back to Horde
digital arrow
had a group of friends on another server who had a tank spot
and was willing to lemme play prot
old night
yeah I try to cap out IP once shield block is up, use shield block for a rage dump then revenge if i cant do either. If everything is locked out, I use dev
digital arrow
now life is pretty nice
old night
been working on my rotation, trying to clean it up
uneven mason
Film - don't spend rage just to spend rage if you're taking damage
If you're not taking enough damage that IP is being consumed fast
just use revenge anyway
old night
yup
uneven mason
out the gate
old night
I actually stop casting rev before a taunt swap
chilly brook
I rage dump with Revenge when not actively tanking
old night
what I think my issue was was not using revenge as a rage dump
uneven mason
gotta be cautious
old night
then not casting devastate to proc SS
uneven mason
its a easy trap to fall into
old night
as a bottom of the line priority that is
old night
oh of course
I was on my last raid. I just think I also wasn't using devastate enough as well. I found myself cooldown locked for a second or two which I could have weaved in a dev to try and proc
lost mauve
I’m not sure what a warrior tank buff would even look like
Not saying we don’t need them
old night
I'm getting closer to optimizing my rotation, just been taking a lot of work. This expansion it just hasn't fully clicked yet
lost mauve
But I feel like what we need is a redesign, not a buff
We have one viable talent build and that signals to me a design flaw
astral crystal
Protection Warrior and Guardian Druid are lagging behind. Some of that is numerical tuning, some (with Prot Warrior) has to do with rotational flow. Changes coming to the PTR in the not so distant future.
oh god
lost mauve
Like, imagine even trying to tank without anger management and bolstering
astral crystal
monkaS
weary notch
not if you enjoy the current playstyle, which many do (myself included).
astral crystal
playstyle is good, i'd just lobby for more sb uptime, and yes, i know bolster etc, but 100% sb uptime would be nice
also fixing NS, ravager and HR
weary notch
@astral crystal no, I don't want that. That won't help. We need less difference in damage between SB being up and down. More SB uptime will just mask the problem
chilly brook
I know
But I’m specifically speaking about the “...some (with prot warrior) has to do with rotational flow.”
astral crystal
no, more sb uptime means you have reliable mitigation
weary notch
and when it's down you get destroyed
astral crystal
which is the entire point of tanking
that's what i'm saying
make it so it's like in legion again
where you can have 100% if you play right
weary notch
that's not fun
astral crystal
of course it is
junior ivy
i dont even care about play style i just want to get invited to tank m+ pugs
astral crystal
and fun shouldn't really come into question here, that's a subjective concern; i dont find brm fun even though they have 100% uptime on thier am, not because of 100% uptime on their am
their*
digital arrow
yeah @junior ivy lol
astral crystal
what are you even talking about from a design standpoint lmao
chilly brook
But good play meant I could purify more
astral crystal
brm and guardian druid both have 100% mit uptime
chilly brook
And it was something that I worked to do well with
chilly brook
I’d agree
astral crystal
They're also looking at Tank Damage, look at them on the PTR.
weary notch
the problem is not lack of SB uptime, it's that we take too much damage when SB isn't up.
weary notch
if you want to design a class that is less punishing to play, you reduce the penalty for mistakes. Not eliminate, just reduce
vagrant cape
Prot pallies in Legion had the exact same issue. As far as I know they still don't have 100% uptime on their sotr either.
astral crystal
prot pally wasnt bad in legion despite
astral crystal
in ABT anyway
vagrant cape
They make up for it by having consecration now. They get flat reduction by standing in it. That's why
delicate prism
Just make all mitigation baseline and make shield block into a pretty animation that does nothing.
Fucking fixed.
weary notch
that and high armor, health, mastery, and flat DR
vagrant cape
But in Legion they fluctuated between paper and titanium balls
vagrant cape
But with how much uptime we have of something I don't think it's a major issue. When SB is down we've got last stand, demo + IP, and shield wall
weary notch
make rumbling earth baseline, raise the IP cap to 2x IP, and replace rumbling earth with Gag Order. That's pretty much all we need
vagrant cape
What's gag order?
sand egret
gag order would be fun
vagrant cape
Holy shit I want that so badly
weary notch
I wouldn't mind a change to our mastery either
sand egret
I'd like them to fold some IP scaling into there
weary notch
yeah, something that scales. Flat DR would be great
chrome harbor
what if they scrapped out mastery, then replaced it with something like a critical block, and maybe an attack power boost
dark junco
So you have to choice to mitigate a baseline if its not physical, or ''more'' when its physical
And I'd do away with crit block
chrome harbor
but from the sounds of it, they're just gonna buff the parts that make warrior unforgiving, from the (rotational issues) comment
weary notch
but I fear they're going to 7.1.5 us, and the class is going to feel 100% different to play
vagrant cape
Idk if this would fit in as a new mastery or an azerite trait or something, but what about a proc that made your next SB not consume a charge?
vagrant cape
Would it be too powerful at 1%?
dark junco
so like 30% mitigation, when SB isn't active, or just bonus to block when SB is active
weary notch
would suck to track. They need to get rid of more things that are hard to track
vagrant cape
Like 1% of every X where x could be an attack, a block, etc
dark junco
Need to do away with RNG
thats why we're in a bad place
Its either ''no damage'' or fuck my life
vagrant cape
I think prot has very little rotational rng
uneven mason
He means for critical block
vagrant cape
I knkw
dark junco
^
uneven mason
crit block leads to sudden spikes
uneven mason
but its not our problem
dark junco
So they don't balance
uneven mason
our problem is damage that bypasses armor/block
dark junco
Thats part of it
uneven mason
since we have IP and that is it
tulip pond
What about new mastery "Blocking an attack increases IP absorb by X amount"
vagrant cape
#BlockTheRocks
uneven mason
Tony
still wouldn't help
in situations where we're not tanking but takign bleed/spell damage
tulip pond
True, didn't consider that
uneven mason
Like, the 2 situations we have issues with
chrome harbor
so would a flat increase to amount blocked as a mastery be more smoothed out?maybe have it synergize with IP in a way, like blocking an attack extends IP by X amount like our old set bonus
weary notch
that's not a bad idea
uneven mason
@chrome harbor yes that would be 100% smoother
chrome harbor
cool, whats the starting pay at blizzard
weary notch
shields are a little too crucial, and that would take the weight of needing a good shield
dark junco
hence why a baseline mitigation instead of critblock would be better.
Add utility, like brez, hard CC, displacement of/for others.
Add sustain, like free victory rush % on blocks.
uneven mason
so, instead of mastery increases chance to bloc by X
weary notch
not chance, amount
uneven mason
So right so Mastery would be increases chance to block by X, increases amount blocked by Y
dark junco
Thats too op with SB @weary notch
weary notch
pull some of the weight out of block value
uneven mason
OH
vagrant cape
Blizzard's solution is just gonna be "lol play classic if you want warriors to be good"
chrome harbor
yea and just have it flat increase as it would be more reliable
weary notch
but whatever solution they come up with, I can pretty much guarantee it's going to be a terrible idea, and will fundamentally change the way the class plays
uneven mason
have mastery reduce all damage by X (our critical block scale) during shield block
dark junco
The amount would have to been so minimal @chrome harbor to keep with the scaling of 2ndary stats, that mastery would become almost worst stats
tulip pond
Yea but that doesn't fix the issue of us being paper outside of SB / Bolster LS
chrome harbor
thats why i would also tack on an IP value to it
dark junco
And we'd go even deeper into the blocking damage importance and getting rekt on non-blocked
Useless against bleed
junior ivy
is anyone horde 😦
final mist
Adding more defensive power to / during Shield Block solves none of our issues.
dark junco
^
final mist
It would, in fact, make us worse.
dark junco
We need something outside of it
vagrant cape
@uneven mason but then we have no reason to ever press IP. I kinda like how I never have to press SB when I'm pulling caster packs.
uneven mason
except IP accents SB
vagrant cape
But mah rage
chrome harbor
so what, we'd need something completely different and new?
uneven mason
you'd have a reason to use both
dark junco
Thats why I suggested X% DR when SB isn't active.
vagrant cape
BUT MAH RAGE
vagrant cape
I just wanna block rocks, guys
dark junco
Cause thats what they can't balance around
vagrant cape
#BlockTheRock
chrome harbor
Armored to the teeth: reduces damage not blocked or cant be blocked by X amount?
vagrant cape
Let's start a Twitter revolution
final mist
Get rid of Crit Block, add Mannoroth's effect as a Mastery based on Rage spent, ta da.
dark junco
^
dark junco
It would
uneven mason
it wouldn't
dark junco
With AM and BV yeah
delicate prism
If only we had an object with which to shield ourselves from physical projectiles.
sand egret
@final mist I'd take that, but I'd like a bit more flavor like instead of an instant heal it was a stackable HoT
uneven mason
mannoroths was only amazing because we had al iteral ocean of rage to spend
it'd be unnoticable
chrome harbor
technically BfA still has an ocean of rage
sand egret
allows you to build a HoT in moment sof downtime
final mist
Mannoroth's was still by far the best legendary even in EN, which is around the RPS we have now.
sand egret
as a buffer
chrome harbor
just not the kind we can use
uneven mason
unless they made the scaling insane
final mist
So that point is moot.
uneven mason
Even in EN we had double our current RPS
dark junco
Not sure, lemme look at logs
final mist
I would suggest you go back and look, because it should be around the same RPS if you're playing correctly.
uneven mason
Lets go evne further, Mannoroths was effective because IP stopped us from taking damage
that isn't the case now
it would be the same boat as making IP absorb 58% damage rather than 50%
final mist
We're taking damage and the Mastery would be healing as we do, it's not ineffective.
uneven mason
They'd have to scale it to OP levels
chrome harbor
if our issue is unblockable dmg or damage we take inbetween dmg, I have a feeling their intention is to just change it to something thats a passive DR... though that seems incredibly boring. I dont think they'll buff IP as that goes against them wanting to cut back on absorbs, they also seem to be against warrior healing
uneven mason
how about something like If IP expires from damage taken you're healed for X % Of the absorb amount
rather than basing it on rage spent
sand egret
cough stackable hot per rage spent
chilly brook
I mean I’m ok with warrior not healing
sand egret
I don't want to be a DK
uneven mason
But it would STILL not solve anything
chrome harbor
if they want to keep us away from self healing we should be the kings of a smooth intake of dmg
sand egret
but if it's bound to "ignoring" a hit you just took, it'll fit in line
uneven mason
anyone who thinks self healing is a problem with warriors needs to wake the fuck up
sand egret
damage spreading is a fun archetype to be in
uneven mason
We don't deal with non mitigateable damage because our only tool for it is weak (IP)
giving us a miniscule heal wouldn't help nearly as much as peopel think (oh boy 4% of my tiny health pool)
weary notch
I mean, we had Enraged Regeneration forever. I wouldn't hate seeing that back
uneven mason
Last stand is equivalent to ER
weary notch
true
uneven mason
its literally a 30% heal
tulip pond
Idk if this sounds band-aidy but raise IP cap, and while IP is active you gain x % flat DR that could maybe scale with mastery or something
chilly brook
Here’s an interesting tank idea (not really thinking about this should be a prot thing but I think it’d be cool) how about a tank whose mitigation is to spread the damage between the group? :kappa
uneven mason
Also major issue prot faces that the other tanks have is we don't scale with damage we take
we don't get stronger the more we're beat on
BDK does
Monk does
weary notch
pally does with the right talent
chilly brook
How does monk get stronger?
weary notch
druid too
sand egret
DH does
tulip pond
More haste from HT
uneven mason
because stagger is amazing
chrome harbor
what was that oldschool talent warriors had where they healed when they got crit? was it blood craze or something?
final mist
That's... not quite right?
uneven mason
if they increased the cap on ITF
final mist
Monks don't scale with enemies at all
final mist
They're just broken
sand egret
Stagger is just mechanically insane
weary notch
lol, we don't need more haste. By the end of the expansion you wouldn't be able to press anything quickly enough during heroism
stagger needs to be 100% scrapped and replaced with something else.
chilly brook
Please no
sand egret
eh it needs urgency
chilly brook
Let’s not completely rework BrM
sand egret
harder the hit, faster the tick rate
uneven mason
just make stagger able to kill them
chilly brook
I may not play it anymore but I still love the class
final mist
Stagger as a mechanic has never been balanced. It cannot exist and still be balanced with the other tanks.
tulip pond
Imo it should be sorta reverted into MoP where BrM power budget wasn't 99 % on stagger
weary notch
or just take a charge away from ISB 😄
chrome harbor
how about if they get hit hard enough they fall down
dark junco
chilly brook
@tulip pond we’d need guard back
dark junco
Rage at EN vs Uldir
digital arrow
they should feel hung over after stagger lol thats my uninformed opinion
sand egret
haha
frosty wedge
that fetid article made me so angry about the state of prot vs BrM, lol
sand egret
-40% haste
chrome harbor
what fetid article
digital arrow
yeah they become sluggish lol
chrome harbor
link?
chilly brook
I actually wonder how it’d affect BrM if they shuffled around the damage %’s
tulip pond
tldr not big enough difference between a monk that is played like garbage and a monk that is played properly
chilly brook
Like higher amount up front with less going into stagger
sand egret
@chilly brook not as much as you think. Fundamentally, delaying damage, has way more power than pure numbers would indicate
weary notch
monk might get interesting if you couldn't keep stagger up 100% of the time
tulip pond
Like Blizz intended originally in Legion?
sand egret
that's why they've been in such a hot spot.
frosty wedge
nope it's not - read the article
midnight ferry
monk will always be easy mode any moron can play because stagger
frosty wedge
this monk had like 23% ISB uptime on fetid
chilly brook
@sand egret which is why I was wondering what might happen if they put more damage up front and you could die to stagger
frosty wedge
and it was a clean kill on heroic
sand egret
I don't think it'd change it as much as you'd think, to be honest
digital arrow
now im mad after reading the article too
sand egret
Mostly because Stagger changes how healers deal with damage as well
uneven mason
Basically the article states what we already knew
chrome harbor
so theyre the complete opposite of a prot war
uneven mason
yes
chilly brook
I mean I felt like BrM was much better in WoD where proper use of Guard was important
uneven mason
which is why they're the meta
and we're not
the difference between a good prot war
and a bad prot war
is well
one dies
chilly brook
And if you didn’t use guard right you got smacked
uneven mason
and the other doesn't
sand egret
at the end of the day, it's risk vs reward and there is very little risk when you close our eyes and find a random BrM vs a random Prot
tulip pond
I feel like that applied more to MoP, Guard with double charges in WoD was just stupid
uneven mason
brM was OP in WOD as well
digital arrow
i sure do feel rewarded when playing prot war well, i've never played brm though but thats the main reason i've stuck with war
chrome harbor
must be nicer to raid lead with a BrM monk if thats the case
frosty wedge
yeah, playing prot well is super rewarding... but it's still slightly less effective than playing BrM terribly
sand egret
tanks aren't very good RL'ers imho O_O
final mist
Being a tank has nothing to do with being a RL.
chilly brook
@uneven mason but the difference was playing one sub-optimally got you killed
sand egret
it you're trying to lead a fight and you literally can't see what is going on because the boss is 100000ft tall, it does
which was more of my point, tbh.
chilly brook
I can RL fine as a tank
dusk locust
i raid led as rogue last expansion and am raid leading as prot war this expansion. yeah visibility does get me sometimes
chilly brook
Regardless of boss size
digital arrow
yeah not having a good view of everyone in the raid is the main reason why i've never tried being a shot caller
dusk locust
most bosses are fine though
prisma crane
so, tank dmg is being looked at, cant wait for nerfs to our only niche to accompany paltry "buffs"
chilly brook
I mean it’s not your job as a RL to micromanage everyone
sand egret
it's not that it isn't viable and can't be done, it's just an extra thing in your way
frosty wedge
it's just bonkers to me how little awareness some people have - I'm not guilded because I have a super random/vaired schedule so I was pugging heroic vek on my BrM a couple days ago - got into what was a mostly guild run and their main tank who's like... 373 or so didn't know you could roll straight backwards
chilly brook
If someone requires micromanaging they should be replaced
sick sentinel
Lol brm monks
frosty wedge
he had been turning his back on zek
sand egret
woof
frosty wedge
yep
sand egret
that's like in the pre-course to tanking
digital arrow
lol
sand egret
#1 don't sit
#2 don't turn around
stiff orbit
that's pretty gangster
sand egret
#3 have gear equipped
sick sentinel
🤷
chilly brook
Anyways here’s to hoping that they don’t dumpster fire BrM and BDK
sand egret
there's a 100% chance someone is going to think they did
chrome harbor
They said they mitigate too much, by isn’t a blood dks main thing grip?
frosty wedge
naw BDKs just heal SO MUCH it looks like they're not taking damage, lol
astral crystal
they said they have too much survivability
sand egret
originally it was healing back from big hits via DStrike. They were the original "spiky" tank
astral crystal
definitely not that they mit too much
sand egret
now we have a literal one #dhpuns
uneven mason
Skillstorm
frosty wedge
BDKs have 100% uptime on bone shield they take pretty smooth damage and they heal a shitload
uneven mason
I'd probably have jumped on the BDK bandwagon
astral crystal
their thing is healing back getting buttfucked
sand egret
Well all know what we really need....a glyph to turn Heroic Throw into a Rock. Biggest buff we could get.
digital arrow
a boulder
oblique wolf
my problem with playing bdk is I don't think you ever have the option to do damage
oblique wolf
like they have a rotation, and the do it. They don't have options to drop tankiness for dps
uneven mason
Because they do DPS while tanking?
Like, that is known as a problem for us, not a benefit
"Oh I can sacrifice mitigatio nto do what other tanks do automatically? SOUNDS GREAT"
uneven mason
We just happen to do a lot more damage
midnight ferry
Dev say they are looking at tank damage, inc prot warrior nerf
uneven mason
yeah they're going to make warriors easier to play
chrome harbor
i figured it was dmg taken
uneven mason
do shit for damage
chilly brook
Their mitigation (aka death strike) is damage
uneven mason
but we'll be easier to play (AKA stronger )
chrome harbor
maybe they'll make devastate do dmg
uneven mason
maybe they'll make devastate do something besides fish for Shield slam procs
simple prairie
I got two azerite gear upgrades (head and shoulder) in ilvl 355. But the traits are not as good as my previous two (ilvl 340). What do I use? I had 2x shield slam and 1 tc traits. With the new gear I have revenge, iron fortress and TC in Ilvl 355 :/:/
quaint kiln
They’ll likely increase tank damage honestly. Most tank single target damage is bad
frosty wedge
@simple prairie the only traits worth dropping lvl for is deafening crash
chilly brook
Remember they did say they were worried about tanks not being able to do enough damage to keep up with DPS scaling
Sooo I wouldn’t be surprised to see ST buffs
simple prairie
@frosty wedge thanks!
chilly brook
They need to balance around skittish most likely
Which is a 2.5x(I think?) threat modifier
uneven mason
Amazingly, BDKs can do +10s easier
so they get gear faster
so their representation
goes up
while other tanks goes down
This is what we call
"a feedback loop"
quaint kiln
Bone storm is pretty good
chilly brook
Lol
quaint kiln
1min CD
chilly brook
I’ve always loved bone storm
uneven mason
LOOK MA, NO BRAIN
quaint kiln
It is pretty fun playing with my race car pedals on blood DK
uneven mason
just cap the healing it can do
quaint kiln
LOOK MA NO HANDS
uneven mason
at like 100% of your total health
for its duration
it'll still be strong
but it won't be "I Can puoll 500 mobs and not die" strong
quaint kiln
It’s really just the healing they’re able to output. It’s always been about that
uneven mason
Right but Bonestorm is the only ability right now that gives them that
quaint kiln
Not really man
uneven mason
Deathstrike is a shadow of its former self
quaint kiln
Not on fetid
uneven mason
I'm talking M+
tulip pond
that pedal comment made me dig this old picture
quaint kiln
DKs actually not terrible for fetid. Well you can’t balance in a vacuum
uneven mason
LOLOL
I had forgotten that
DK is fine for tanking raids
I'm saying M+ dat bonestorm healing
merry cave
Boneatorm is great until you grossly underestimate pug dps and it falls off and you explode -_-
Mistakes were made
quaint kiln
Well bonestorm isn’t the reason they’re better
uneven mason
Well you use bonestorm to establish aggro, and then kite
Also
who pugs in M+
we're warriors, I'm either getting carried by my guild
or I'm grinding my Insane title
delicate prism
I pug 7s
merry cave
Damn son, your sense of humour hat isn't on today
delicate prism
lel
oblique wolf
I carry them with my tclaps
delicate prism
tittyclaps
ember arrow
@tulip pond professional warrior ui https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61ZJO7oc8WL._SX355_.jpg
tulip pond
Yikers
digital arrow
LMAO
tulip pond
Good thing I made myself unbenchable by gearing a monk but hopefully the buffs will make my rl more tolerant for prot warr
carmine ibex
Is there a weakaura or something that would display some kind of aggregate indication of how much of my damage intake is currently unblockable?
like even a number that said RDTPS: 15k (44%)
where 44% is unblockable
chilly brook
When you power through at the beginning of the xpac and prove your entire guild wrong and show them that prot is actually viable
¯_(ツ)_/¯
carmine ibex
I already have a gut feel for how much is unblockable on every pack in every m+, but it would be nice to have that info at a glance
mortal pike
The trick is to be an officer or GM
dusk locust
^ can confirm am GM
mystic ferry
the trick is to tank with a BM and make them take mechanics
like make them take every thrash on fetid
chilly brook
@carmine ibex if you’re waiting until the damage is taken to figure it out it’s too late
cinder pasture
Can confirm, am officer and have been since wotlk
jolly gull
Never got invited to raid groups. So i made my own with blackjack and hordes
carmine ibex
yeah obviously, but I would still like to see it
I think having some kind of real time indicator would help train memory of certain situations, not so much that I'd want to react to it in real time. I can already tell when DPS isn't kicking rock lances and I get doodoo'd on
tulip pond
Gonna be interesting to see how long it will take for prot to get rid of their current reputation among pugging community if the buffs bring us on par with other tanks
neon tangle
Implying that there are times where the dps does kick rock lances
earnest zinc
It only takes playing at the max skill level to be on par with a good Brew or BDK
If the Brew or BDK is better than good, you are out of luck
carmine ibex
@neon tangle the only time DPS kicks rock lance is right after I've used spell reflect
earnest zinc
That's how you know when they will kick as a prot warrior
When you use spell reflect, it's 99% going to happen
chilly brook
True
earnest zinc
Every time I say it on my warrior not to interrupt in a guild group, 9 times out of 10 someone does it
tulip arch
That's pretty good utility, use spell reflect to get an extra interrupt /s
carmine ibex
yeah. "reflecting this one"
1.2 sec later
"sorry I stunned it"
tulip arch
We have 2 now, one on 15 sec and one 25 sec cooldown
earnest zinc
At least it doesn't cost rage anymore
neon tangle
I am rather excited to see what changes they have in store for us
mystic ferry
you are too optimistic
neon tangle
Probably
sand egret
?
neon tangle
I mean, it doesn't really fix that BDKs basically are all of the 15+ tanks, which has created a feedback loop keeping them better geared
and it's been going on for the whole raid tier
sand egret
yeah, it won't stabilize immediately regardless
unless they gut them to the point where they literally aren't played
uneven mason
give them the same treatment we got
mystic ferry
no
uneven mason
reducd their snares to 20%
grim prism
BDKs doing +15s are literally getting the exact same loot drops as prots doing +10s
mystic ferry
dont nerf dks or brew or anything else
chilly brook
Nah
mystic ferry
just buff the other tanks
uneven mason
Deathstrike only heals for 10%
mortal pike
^ player 2
sand egret
they prob will, tbh
chilly brook
@grim prism except for the extra drop Chance for each level over 10
neon tangle
@grim prism sorta-kinda, being able to regularly do +15's is going to get you a lot more drops, and a lot more titan/war-forged gear
grim prism
That hasnt been confirmed
sand egret
I thought it was confirmed
grim prism
wtb source
sand egret
?
grim prism
It was on PTR
fair root
I swapped to arms to run some m+ with a dk tank friend. After doing some higher m+ with them it wasnt that they took less damage or could heal it was just how they can deal with minor mechanics. Like aoe deathgrips for mobs running at low hp in tol dagor. or mc'ing undead mobs in atal'dazar that made the dungeons so much easier.
errant wing
can confirm, i depleted a +12 and we got 3 loots
neon tangle
The important thing is that it creates a feedback loop, when one tank is disproportionally good they will get more runs, more chances for titan/warforged gear, get better r.io scores, be more likely to get invited back
it takes what could have been a small difference and makes it a larger one
chrome harbor
doesnt that only matter with pugging? or is that what the top bois do... cause that sounds awful
mystic ferry
thats a scary thought
sand egret
that's how I play
mystic ferry
i'll think of that in my nightmares tonight
chrome harbor
im sorry
sand egret
does my playstyle not count?
mystic ferry
it's not that it doesnt matter
puggings is important and blizzard should care about it
but it'll still be pugging
so it'll still suck
grim prism
I want to see a a bluepost or official patch notes
mystic ferry
wtf
sand egret
Yeah, I know, I was more fleshing out the point a bit
neon tangle
warriors are currently experiencing effectively a negative feedback loop, the average warrior has a harder time getting pugs/groups
neon tangle
which means that we will have less gear than other classes, which will in turn make us less likely the next week to get a pug again
chilly brook
Ummmm hello @grim prism if someone depletes a 12 but gets 3 pieces it’s confirmed
sand egret
@neon tangle unfortunately, there isn't much Blizz can do about that.
mystic ferry
yes there is
sand egret
unless they remove the gear
mystic ferry
frequent small balance updates instead of waiting for big patches
sand egret
lol
neon tangle
^^^^ Not letting balance stay bad for long periods of time helps a lot with that
It wasn't horrible at the start
mystic ferry
they can't fix community perception now but they could have stopped it from happening
chilly brook
The only way to get three is if you key it if you deplete you should only get two
sand egret
but not WoW
mystic ferry
tiny games like dota
chrome harbor
these guys barely had enough time to release a presentable game, idk if they have it in them for constant updates to classes
grim prism
LOL
sand egret
like do you know how long it takes to run a single exit pass on a patch for DotA vs WoW
cuz it's friggin insane
grim prism
Pretty sure way the fuck more people play DotA than WoW
chilly brook
I don’t think so
mystic ferry
@grim prism agree
chrome harbor
are mobas still a thing?
chilly brook
Unless you think WoW is below 1 million subs
neon tangle
subs vs. active players is gonna be a hard thing to compare
chrome harbor
i mean they were fun as a WC3 map but idk if they have the staying power of wow
neon tangle
especially for a game like WoW
chilly brook
mystic ferry
@chrome harbor literally most played game on steam for years, highest esports $$, huge china players and viewership
i wouldnt be so sure wow is beating it
chilly brook
I really don’t think that Dota 2 is ahead of WoW in players
grim prism
DotA Asia Championships had 19M peak concurrent viewers, compared to 1M for the MDI which autoplayed in the battle.net client
So im viewership alone it's clearly more popular
chilly brook
Viewers=/=players
mystic ferry
nah but blizz doesnt release stats so we don't have a great idea
grim prism
Having 20x more viewers is a strong indication of having more players
sand egret
players =/= game
grim prism
Literally an order of magnitude and then some lol
sand egret
angry birds had a lot more players than certain AAA titles
chrome harbor
wow didn't think it was that big, oh well
chilly brook
We have solid numbers on Dota players
sand egret
doesnt make Angry Birds a bigger game
chilly brook
We don’t need to look at viewership
sand egret
i'm literally talking about developmentally
neon tangle
anyhow, it certainly didn't take since launch to figure out that prot is falling behind
mystic ferry
either way the original point is that dota balance is about a million times better than wow balance and thats inarguable
sand egret
like the actual size of the game and it's systems and how many components you deal with
i'm saying its apples and oranges
chilly brook
And the lowest point of subs that we know of was what 6M for WoW?
sand egret
from a dev perspective
chilly brook
And I don’t think BFA is lower than 1 million subs
uneven mason
WoW is probably still hovering around 7-8m subs
mystic ferry
i would not be surprised if half of wows subs didnt play the game
grim prism
^
chilly brook
I would
neon tangle
@chilly brook subs =/= number of concurrent players
grim prism
^^^
merry cave
Ions q&a about tanks...wows
mystic ferry
and wow was raking in $$ from some kid who never cancelled his moms credit card
uneven mason
you means Ion's "I should appear before the plebs again, and not answer more questions"
carmine ibex
I see two PvP shoulders on Wowhead - 1 with DC and one without DC. Are these shoulders like the weapon in that once you reach the conq level, you can choose between the two?
mystic ferry
and dota's are over 10million @sand egret
sand egret
both of which
urban monolith
he gave a legit answer on tanks, even if it was uh a little distracted by the brm stuff
grim prism
It really doesnt matter tbh
sand egret
are completely irrelevant to my point
neon tangle
MAU and DAU are normally pretty different
sick sentinel
@carmine ibex you choose
mystic ferry
idk why you keep making excuses for blizzards balance team
carmine ibex
thanks
mystic ferry
they are not doing a good job
sand egret
but you dont know what their job even is
mystic ferry
blizzard has never been good at balance
neon tangle
Even for something as low-effort as facebook their DAU is ~50% of their MAU
mystic ferry
because it doesnt matter how tough their job is or how hard they try
it matters what the outcome is
and wow's balance is abysmal
grim prism
^^^^^
neon tangle
I'd actually argue that it isn't... abysmal
sand egret
oi
sand egret
grass is always greener i guess
neon tangle
It's just hard to balance something w/ permanence
chilly brook
Balance has been much worse tbh
grim prism
Its been worse, like at the start of this expac LOL
sand egret
it's hard to balance a game like WoW.
mystic ferry
it's been worse and it's still terrible now
neon tangle
If a DotA character needs balancing you can just do that, they don't have all the gear they've already collected
chrome harbor
not saying there aren't issues, theres a LOT wrong with BfA, but balance is usually worse
chilly brook
And I think tank balance was actually fairly decent going into this expansion
neon tangle
every game is a fresh start
sand egret
there's maybe 1 or 2 games on the market you could probably compare to it, developmentally
grim prism
Tank balance is not as bad as most people say, BDKs are just a gnarly outlier for M+ performance
neon tangle
WHich is why I think blizzard needs to learn to act faster, because the longer they let stuff sit the worse it gets
frosty wedge
I definitely have a 6 month recurring sub and I've only played like.... 3 of the last 12 months
chrome harbor
mmorpgs are very niche to be fair, and expensive to make so theres a high fail-rate on them
chilly brook
I don’t think anyone will argue that blizz has been really bad at recognizing and responding to things this expansion
grim prism
Its been a downhill trend
neon tangle
@grim prism Right, I think in a vacuum we're not way less powerful than BDKs, it's just that since BDKs are an outlier right now it increases their average chances of getting gear from PUGS, etc
mystic ferry
wow players just compare current wow to past wow and not to other games
light oasis
I disagree. Wow has only gotten better
mystic ferry
so when blizz sucks at something less than usual they call it good
neon tangle
stacking frost resist gear on bear tanks to take the dragon breaths
frosty wedge
dude, I submitted a ticket about my chars both getting 355 azerite caches instead of 370s and they just replied with the "this is an issue and we're working to resolve it, you'll see in the patch notes when it's fixed and you can know that you helped make the game better!" and i was like "sure... but about those 370 pieces...."
ticket closed/marked resolved
lol
mystic ferry
@chilly brook i mean we're in the #protection channel and how many of us have been benched
almost every prot i know is playing arms rn
grim prism
Benching prot in raids is a perception problem, not a performance problem
chilly brook
^
limber wigeon
Not benched prot warrior reporting in
chrome harbor
honestly ppl are usually just happy to see a tank
hot locust
I mean, it can be a player performance problem too...
grim prism
Sure
sand egret
well, all I got to say is, Blizzard will always be faced with one consistent problem: the disconnect between players and developers in how long it takes to solve a problem in a game like wow
mystic ferry
just because prot is playable in mythic doesnt make balance not an issue
chilly brook
Then again if people are concerned I break out my logs and walk them through everything
mystic ferry
i just rerolled brew, why would i make my life harder
chilly brook
Can balance be better? Of course
But that’s not the point that I was making
I was simply saying that the initial walk in point is actually not bad as far as tanks are concerned
grim prism
@sand egret imo the disconnect right now is between what blizzard wants for the game amd what players want for the game
grim prism
The problem isnt that blizz is being slow to implement changes that players want to see
chrome harbor
its really a shift since WoD that ive had an issue with
grim prism
The problem is that ths changes blizz want do not reflect the changes players want. Blizz wants to drive WoW to a more mobile-esque advancement paradigm, and longtime players don't want their precious WoW to become a glorified slot machine
chilly brook
The bug problem with BFA is they’re having to pull double duty
Azerite is a failure
So they’re having to fix that
grim prism
The players and the devs want to go in two different directions
neon tangle
as a long time player, wow has basically always been a slot machine
sand egret
@grim prism I'd go a bit further, which that is a product of: a) Unwillingness to provide promises to answers they aren't sure of (which leads to the "no-communication" issue. Not without merit but a very, very real point). and b) The simple lack of knowledge that players have (and obviously so) as to what it actually takes to fix anything in wow.
chilly brook
On top of addressing disparities and problems with classes
light oasis
Yeah wow has always been slot machine
neon tangle
Raid bosses were the original loot boxes
light oasis
It’s just more apparent now that it’s spread out a bit more
grim prism
@neon tangle now more than ever, with titanforging out the ass and untargetable BiS azerite
sand egret
so what you get is people reacting to stuff that is being pushed in stages
chrome harbor
thats disengenious
chrome lance
Bah. You knew what you had a chance at. TF makes it a legit slot machine.
light oasis
Which actually helps out imo. Because if I fail to win the slot machine that is raid I can go to pvp or m+
chrome lance
The fact I have a damn 375 ring and have set foot in a single scrub tier normal raid is all ya need to know to know its a slot machine.
neon tangle
@grim prism I don't really see much of a difference between the current system, and what we had in anything but legion
light oasis
Obviously Azerite has failed there atm. But at least they see that now I guess
sand egret
TF is an unfortunate case where the plight of the minority actually does hold substantial value over design in this case
sand egret
as the system directly undermines one part of the playerbase
HOWEVER
this is more of an exception
chilly brook
I’d care less about loot if they gave us ML back
neon tangle
I think TF has issues, but... it seems like it could be a more interesting version of getting loot than alway sjust giving X piece
chilly brook
But ever since it became PL loot has become extremely unsatisfactory
neon tangle
like lowering the ilvl, and making bonus ilvls more common, along with higher drops
chrome harbor
quite honestly I think warforging is fine, its a minor upgrade that give you incentive for more farm without breaking any sort of effort v reward system
grim prism
We can play armchair developer all goddamn day, but the fact of the matter is that almost nobody (devs included) is happy with the way the core endgame advancement system worked out
neon tangle
overall you give the same amount of gear/ilvls out, but it gives a lil' more sense of progression
frosty wedge
TF is dumb, I run around doing quests for 340 pieces on the off chance it titanforged 40 levels
chilly brook
@grim prism you’re not wrong
light oasis
For Azerite. Otherwise endgame has never had more options imo
frosty wedge
I'm ok with PL if it's a token system - get a token from a boss, pick a piece that boss drops
chilly brook
Just give us ML back
frosty wedge
ML helps guilds
frosty wedge
doesn't do anything for the broader palyer base
grim prism
@light oasis you also think wow is the best it's ever been, which makes it pretty hard to empathize with your viewpoint
chilly brook
So then they shouldn’t have removed it?
frosty wedge
I pug heroic every week b/c my schedule blows
chilly brook
Since it had to be a guild group to begin with iirc?
light oasis
That’s just like your opinion man lol
grim prism
Considering even people like Griff who still actively play and enjoy the game see major issues with it
chrome harbor
yea pugs had to use PL in legion
neon tangle
@chilly brook It's fairly obvious that they removed it since it enabled split runs
frosty wedge
ML doesn't solve loot for non guild runs - they killed ML because split runs
grim prism
Sure, it's all just opinion, but yours is extremely unpopular and I don't really see much factual basis for it lll
chrome harbor
and the trade restrictions are still annoying, especially with weapons, rings and trinkets
chilly brook
Again split runs still happen
chrome harbor
^
light oasis
I don’t think it is. Just not the loudest.
chilly brook
That’s my take @grim prism
Split running is always going to exist until they make all gear non-tradeable
grim prism
You've got to be the only person I've seen outside of r/wow saying wow is the best its ever been this expac lol
chrome harbor
idk im getting WoD vibes where ppl only log in to do a raid, maybe a M+ now that its a thing then everyone bolts to play something/anything else
neon tangle
I mean, padding length / having a carrot is 95% of what an MMO is
grim prism
Sure @neon tangle, but when it gets to the point of feeling like chores I think the devs have handily missed the mark
chilly brook
I think we all play MMOs because we like carrot
grim prism
I like sticks
chrome harbor
I like knowing the carrot im getting is a carrot though and not a cucumber
chilly brook
But there’s a point where the carrot is ridiculous and not worth
uneven mason
Yeah I was gonna say
chrome harbor
transparent rewards are important
grim prism
Transparency been nonexistent since WoD
chrome harbor
well, post WoD, WoD was when you started hearing devs say 'we want ot make loot more exciting' and the rest of us started sweating
granted im still not a fan of RNG crafted gear
grim prism
Every specific dev answer I've seen this expac has been "we aren't happy with it either, and while I can't make promises I can say we would like to look at it at some point."
Azerite? See above.
M+ drops? See above.
Shamans? See above.
Etc
chilly brook
You have to hav some sort of time and effort invested for progression to feel good
But if it feels artificially gated that’s bad
grim prism
There comes a point when that answer just isnt good enough anymore imo
sand egret
Aside from Island Expeditions and my personal gripes with azerite traits, overall I do think this is a really solid expac.
grim prism
It feels like gating for the sake of gating
And when people mention that, they are told that player fun is the only metric the devs use to evaluate performance, and maybe they will look at it at some point
sand egret
I'm enjoying it, and I'm actively playing my Prot warrior. In PUGs. lol
chrome harbor
eh, they said participation is how they measure fun
which is odd coming from ex wow players themselves
sand egret
hint they have way more BI hooks than htat
grim prism
I enjoy the content of this expac, but the grinding is awful
chrome harbor
I do wish we had a Surumar type place though, i like doing some world content now and then
sand egret
and those hooks will be one of thier best kept secrets, as is with all AAA's
@chrome harbor we'll 100% get one (prob underwater)
fair root
How much do you guys do island expeditions, like outside of the first 2 weeks (where m+ wasnt out) I havnt touched them since.
chilly brook
I enjoy the content no doubt about it but the rewards (aka gear) aren’t satisfying
sand egret
not Vash'jir style, but set under the water
chrome harbor
havent touched them since i hit exhalted with honorbound
sand egret
Island Expeditions are the biggest let down for me, personally
grim prism
Oof that link format, sry
But also heres the man himself saying "player fun is the only metric we care about"
sand egret
however, it's a super fixable thing
neon tangle
I have been fairly happy with gear, I get it occasionally, I'm not 100% what I would improve on it
having shields be so important is... not great
grim prism
Which, to put it lightly, is pants-on-head retarded
chrome harbor
sounds like pr talk tbh
chrome harbor
yea
grim prism
Well yeah, everything they say is PR talk lol
chilly brook
Well for one a more reliable way to target azerite that we need......
grim prism
Thats my point
sand egret
it is an AMA
chrome harbor
i wouldnt read too much into it. kinda like white noise
sand egret
there's a PR person literally on the other side of the camera
grim prism
There is no substance to any dev communication this expac
sand egret
?
grim prism
Its all been this boilerplate doublespeak
chilly brook
Still have a 340 DC helmet with pure rng as the only way to replace it @neon tangle
grim prism
Its not a new problem, but it has gotten progressively worse
chrome harbor
psh
sand egret
womp
chrome harbor
i mean i need that too... but still
grim prism
You cant read into anything these clowns say, because it's all just meant to keep players grinding away in the hopes that shit will be better next patch
chilly brook
In fact is having three pieces of gears that have actual impacts on your class being tied to pure RNG fun? Or Satisfying?
Or how about having to have a completely different set for Uldir to make sure that you get the proper secondary stat from reorigination array?
neon tangle
I think blizz was p honest when they said that that's more of an effect of poorly tuned azerite traits than a true failing of the system